Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Too Little Too Late
2007-07-28 19:49
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Does that headline apply to last night's 7-5 Yankee loss to the Orioles in which the Yankees rallied for four runs in the ninth only to have Bobby Abreu strikeout to end the game while representing the tying run, or to the Yankees' season itself? You tell me.

The Yankees got exactly one man on base against Brian Burres in each of the first six innings last night. Twice that runner was erased by a double play. Twice he stole second base. Once he was thrown out stealing. In none of those six innings was he advanced by another batter, and none of those six runners came around to score. The Yanks finally broke through when Hideki Matsui led off the seventh with a solo home run. Jorge Posada followed that homer with a single, driving Burres from the game, but despite a subsequent walk, the Yankees were unable to do further damage against reliever John Parrish.

For his part, Roger Clemens had a rough first inning, allowing two runs on a walk and a pair of doubles and throwing 31 pitches. He pitched out of another jam in the second, but another 19 pitches put him at 50 after just two frames. Clemens set the O's down 1-2-3 in the third, but it was the only time he was able to do so all night. The O's scratched out a third run in the fifth on a lead-off walk to Brian Roberts, a sac bunt, a steal of third, and an RBI single.

Despite having thrown 110 pitches, Clemens came out for the seventh, but when Roberts delivered a one-out single on Rocket's 113th pitch, Joe Torre brought in Mike Myers to face Corey Patterson. Patterson singled to put runners on the corners, then stole second uncontested when the Yankee infield came in to cut off the run. Myers got Nick Markakis swinging for the second out and Torre called on set-up ace Luis Vizcaino, but Vizcaino walked Kevin Millar on five pitches to load the bases then gave up a bloop single to right by Miguel Tejada to plate two more runs, running the score to 5-1 O's.

In the eighth, Danys Baez got Derek Jeter, Bobby Abreu, and Alex Rodriguez on eight pitches and the O's tacked two more on against Brian Bruney and Ron Villone to make it 7-1 heading into the bottom of the ninth.

With a six-run lead, Dave Trembley turned to the bottom man in his pen, Cory Doyne. Doyne got ahead of Hideki Matsui 0-2, fell back to 2-2, then got Matsui to ground to second. Only the ball was a slow, bounding, three hopper close to the bag and Matsui was able to beat Brian Roberts' throw at first base by a half step. Then this happened:

Posada home run
Cano double
Phillips single
Cabrera single, Cano scores

With the score 7-4 Yankees, Trembley pulled Doyne and brought in lefty Jamie Walker to face Johnny Damon. With two men on base, I wondered about the wisdom of going for broke by pinch-hitting Shelley Duncan for Damon against the lefty Walker. The thought being that the righty slugger Ducan could run into a pitch and tie the game, while Damon, being a lefty, was more likely to roll over on one and hit into a rally-killing double play. The other side of that being that Damon had hit .355/.412/.516 over the previous seven games and, with no outs, Damon's on-base abilities were more likely to keep the line moving and bring the team's big hitters to the plate. Torre, smartly, elected to stay with Damon. What I didn't know at the time, but Torre did, was that Damon had hit into only one double play all season prior to that at-bat, but that DP had come in the third inning of this very game. Damon rewarded Torre's informed decision by grounding into his second double play of the 2007 season. Undeterred, Derek Jeter singled to plate Phillips, bringing Bobby Abreu to the plate as the tying run.

With Alex Rodriguez, still looking for his 500th career home run, lurking on-deck, Abreu took a slider on the outside corner for strike one as Jeter took second base on defensive indifference. Abreu then took another slider well outside for ball one, and a fastball that looked a bit outside for strike two. With catcher Ramon Hernandez bouncing around to prevent Jeter from relaying location from second base, Walker threw a slider in the dirt to make it 2-2. Abreu then fouled off a slider and a fastball (both of which were in the strike zone), and took another slider low and away to run the count full. Seven pitches into the at-bat, Walker had thrown five sliders and two fastballs, all had been belt-high or lower, all had been away, and all but the last fastball had been on the outside corner or outside the strike zone. Walker's last pitch started out headed for Abreu's ribs. Bobby had seen it often enough to recognize it: the slider again. This one was higher and a bit further over the plate than the others. Abreu paused to avoid swinging early at the 73-mile-per-hour pitch, then let loose.

Watching the replay, I still can't figure out how he missed it. The pitch was high in the zone. Al Leiter, broadcasting for YES, said it was too high for Abreu to reach, but it was letter-high at most and the replays show that he swung on the right plane. If anything it looks like he swung too early despite the extra pause. In either case, the pitch was likely ball four. Having come up empty, Abreu stared back at the ball in Hernandez's glove in shock, then let out a yell of frustration and realization before staggering back to the dugout in a daze behind Rodriguez, who was left on deck.

Will a similar scene be played out on a larger scale in September? With the Yankees having now dropped the weekend series to the Orioles, breaking serve for the first time in the second half (if you'll allow the cross-sports metaphor), let's do some calculations.

The Yankees are now 55-49. They are nine games behind Boston (who won last night) in the AL East, and five games behind Cleveland (who lost) in third place in the Wild Card race (thanks to Friday's completion of the suspended game, their games behind in the standings and games behind in the loss column are now in synch). Thus far in the second half, the Yankees have gone 13-6 (.684) (including that suspended game, which was not added to their record until it was completed on Friday) against their cupcake opponents. If the Yankees can arrest their current three-game losing streak to continue to play .684 ball against the cupcakes (O's, Chisox, D-Rays, KC, Jays), and go 12-11 against their tougher opponents (Tribe, Tigers, Halos, Bosox, M's) per my previous calculations, they'll finish the season with 91 wins. At their current winning percentage, Cleveland would finish the season with at least 93 wins. There's still hope for the Wild Card, but there's no room for error. The Yankees have to compensate for their current slump with a sweep against someone else, and they have to do better than 12-11 against the big boys (preferably beginning by winning their three-game series in Cleveland) if they want to make the postseason. The Red Sox, who are on pace for at least 99 wins, are likely out of reach. The Mariners (on pace for a max of 89 wins and having lost 7 of their last 9) are of little concern.

Chien-Ming Wang needs to be the stopper this afternoon, and the offense needs to build on its ninth-inning rally. If this team gets any deeper into its sudden funk, it's over, both the season and the franchise's 12-year streak of reaching the postseason.

Comments (313)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-07-28 21:33:22
1.   yankz
Call it killer instinct or whatever, but this team lacks something, and they look ridiculous against these weaker opponents. Time's running out. They know that. Enough messing around, they have only one option, and that is to go for the jugular every single pitch. They can't let Brian "102 ERA+" Burres dominate them.
2007-07-28 21:34:59
2.   yankz
If it makes you feel any better, Ian Kennedy's AAA debut: 6 2 0 0 2 6. (via Pete)
2007-07-28 21:37:19
3.   yankz
Jose Canseco, still a douche:

(he gave Mitchell names)

2007-07-28 21:38:56
4.   Cliff Corcoran
1 Hold on. They're playing .684 ball against "these weaker opponents." Yeah, they're in a slump, but you can't say they look ridiculous and lack killer instinct by valuing the last three (and a fraction) games over the 16 that preceded them. That's just absurd.

2 It's irrelevant to the fortunes of the 2007 team, but it makes me feel better about 2008 and beyond, yes.

2007-07-28 21:43:38
5.   monkeypants
0 Cliff I probably would have PH Duncan, but in retrospect that would have been an emotional rather than analytical reaction. I do wonder, though, if maybe bunting wasn't a viable option. According to the run expectancy charts I could find for free, "1-2, 0 outs" and "2-3, 1 outs" are almost identical--at around 1.47 expected runs.

But with Damon's hitting this year--despite the recent little hot streak and lack of DPs--I might have gone for teh bunt and taken my chances with Jeter, Abreu, and A-Rod if it got that far.

2007-07-28 21:46:18
6.   Cliff Corcoran
5 You don't bunt when you're still two baserunners away from getting the tying run on base. You especially don't give up the first out of an inning in that situation.
2007-07-28 21:47:24
7.   Cliff Corcoran
6 Sorry, one baserunner away, but the point is, unless one of the runners you're bunting over is going to tie the score or give you the lead, you don't bunt.
2007-07-28 21:47:28
8.   yankz
4 I have a big problem with them looking that crappy against a guy with a 102 ERA+, knowing that losing meant losing the series. I hate to go all Joe Morgan on you, but they need to beat average pitchers consistently. They've run out of free passes.
2007-07-28 21:50:09
9.   yankz
8 Not even beat. But 1 ER against a league average rookie pitcher? There's not enough time for that.
2007-07-28 21:52:48
10.   Cliff Corcoran
8,9 You're right about that. They do need to beat the Brian Burreses of the world, but the first sentence of your first post 1 is still reactionary and absurd.
2007-07-28 21:53:14
11.   monkeypants
7 Yeah, I forgot that he score was 7-4, not 7-5 (just reread your game summary). The mind plays tricks.
2007-07-28 21:54:24
12.   Cliff Corcoran
11 Just like I forgot there were two runners on, not one. Hey, it's been a long night.
2007-07-28 22:06:49
13.   yankz
Anyone know anything about Britton's injury? Maybe it's making them reluctant to trade Proctor/Farns.
2007-07-28 22:07:46
14.   monkeypants
Meanwhile, according to Pete Abe, Giambi was 1-5, 2B, 2 BB, 3 K in a Single-A DH. I'm not sure if that's a good line or not. Oh well, first day back and all; hopefully he'll show some more life before the deadline so they team knows what they have.
2007-07-28 22:20:44
15.   Vandelay Industries
3 Its MLB's fault that Jose Canseco has become credible. They created this mess, not him. This is why we have whistleblower laws. Baseball PED abuse does not rise to the level of police brutality or government corruption, but if players are cheating, the player who "rats" these players out should be applauded, not bashed because he doesn't conform to some "pinstriped wall" meant to protect personal lives, not cheaters. You can argue he should have come forward while playing, or that he is looking to make a buck, both are true indeed. But he is certainly not a douche for doing what no other player has the balls to do. I am not a big Schilling fan either, but I certainly appreciate his courage in speaking out.
2007-07-28 22:29:28
16.   Vandelay Industries

Its a great line. Just kidding. Hopefully he can return and Joe Torre will get Johnny Damon out of the leadoff spot. How he has lasted this long there is absolutely beyond me. Its time to get Jete back into the three hole, and move Abreu to seventh for the foreseeable future. The three hole is supposed to be used for your best all around hitter, and that is where Jeter belongs. That being said, I am not opposed to using Giambi there once he returns, with Melky one, Jete two and so on. But nothing is to be gained with Damon's sub .350 OBP and sub .250 AVG leading off.

2007-07-28 22:47:50
17.   MARH
Great recap, Cliff. Nobody writes'em like you do.

Was anyone else wondering why Shelley Duncan wasn't in the lineup against the lefty starter Burres, in homer-friendly Camden? The guy's swing must be getting rusty, while Abreu, Damon, Cabrera, and even Phillips have been no great shakes against left-handed pitching.

2007-07-29 02:54:17
18.   Yu-Hsing Chen
I agree that not playing Duncan was just terrible, espically not pinching him in the last AB.
2007-07-29 03:37:56
19.   joe in boston
Great recap Cliff. Nice job.

This team kills me - a few days ago, I really thought we were on the way back. What a frustrating season. Living here north of Boston hasn't made it easier - boy, they just can't do anything wrong. And with that group of starters - no extended losing streaks. Oh well

2007-07-29 05:32:16
20.   OldYanksFan
6 I agree that's true in most situations, however, with our 2-3-4 coming up, the only thing that keeps the tying run from coming up at least twice is a DP.

I assume the infield was back for the DP. JD is a speedy lefty. A bunt to third for a base hit MIGHT keep the rally going, but at worst, gives us 2nd and 3rd with one out.

I think JDs numbers over the last 7 games are misleading. A few days ago he had 2 bloop doubles and (I believe) an infield single. He has NOT been hitting the ball hard. I would need to see all those games to know for sure, but I don't believe he has hit the ball hard more then 2 or 3 times.

Anyway, I still think bunt-for-a-base-hit would have been a good stategy. I don't think Torre put Duncan in there as he is prone to strikeouts and isn't the fastest guy in the world (meaning he is more likely to hit into a DP then JD). JD is also more likely to work a BB.

It seems to me this teams scores in the 1st inning and the 8th and 9th innings. Anybody got some numbers on runs per inning?

2007-07-29 05:43:27
21.   OldYanksFan
And while what they do the rest of the year is critical, the series with the Indians is HUGE. Potentially, a 6 game differential hangs in the balance. If we could sweep them, it makes the remainder of the year much easier. If we lose 2 or 3, our odds (and emotional wellbeing) go down substancially.

This Cleveland series is really our most important for the rest of the year. Me, I would plan ahead and play with our rotation, to make sure our 3 best guns in that series. Wang, Roger and Hughes?/Moose?/Pettitte?

I rest Jorge beforehand and make sure he is in all 3 games. While every game is important, we play KC at home the week before, and I might give a day off or DH a few guys to 'rest' them for the Indians.

I believe Torre sees all games as 'equally important', but a sweep of Cleveland will juice our team. Losing that series might truly be the 'last nail in the coffin'.

2007-07-29 05:47:21
22.   randym77
I know it's a small sample size, but it was this way last year, too: Andy Phillips' left/right splits are reversed. But they weren't in his minor league career, or when he was playing in Scranton this year.

Andy in Scranton (BA and OPS)
vs LEFT .361 / .967
vs RIGHT .277 / .839

Andy in the Bronx
vs LEFT: .241 / .588
vs RIGHT: .338 / .866

Could be fluke. Or maybe he'll be a hell of a hitter when he figures out big league lefties.

2007-07-29 06:09:28
23.   rufuswashere
19 Hey Joe, I feel your pain. There isn't a single social or work-related gathering this summer in Boston that someone doesn't rub it in my face how great the Sox are, etc.

And let the record show (again) that I have never done the opposite when things were going well for the Yanks, bad for the Sox -- dating all the way back to Bucky Dent, when I moved here! It was hard to hold it in last summer after the 5 game sweep, but somehow I managed ... taking the high road has its own rewards (I think, I hope).

2007-07-29 06:21:00
24.   monkeypants
20 Intuitively, most teams should score more runs in the first inning, since their best hitters are guaranteed to come up.

21 I agree. In the old days, when teams had four man rotations plus a swing man/spot starter, I think they used to adjust the rotation like this more often. Certainly Stengel used to hold out Whitey Ford against weaker opponents sometimes to rest him.

2007-07-29 06:34:35
25.   monkeypants
2 Checking baseball-reference, across the league, the most runs have been scored in the sixth inning (1815), followed by the first (1806), then the fifth (1763). The least are scored in the ninth (1040)--but that also includes home teams that are winning, so don't bat in the ninth.

The Yankees scoring by inning breaks down as follows:

1: 75
2: 71
3: 60
4: 77
5: 48
6: 79
7: 60
8: 61
9: 52
10+: 3

Pretty much in line with league totals.

Baseball-reference is awesome once you get the hang of its layout.

2007-07-29 06:35:15
26.   monkeypants
25 that should be 20.
2007-07-29 06:59:48
27.   jedi
I think I am understating rhe fact when I say, Damon's at bats are killing this team. Put him on the DL for goodness sake.

And this from

"The Orioles asked about Kei Igawa, but were told he's not available."


If this is true, I have to say even though Cash has been diligent in not letting our prized prospects go, he really has a problem with admitting he is wrong about some of his other decisions. (Pavano, Contreras, Damon, Igawa)

2007-07-29 07:17:29
28.   RZG
27 You can't put someone on the DL who's not injured, Damon has said he feels fine.

Cashman not admitting he was wrong about Igawa? He's sent him to the minors twice already. NOT sending him down would be not admitting he was wrong (so far).

2007-07-29 07:23:10
29.   joe in boston
23 I agree totally. I've taken the "high road" myself about 95% of the time. This has been personally a very hard "Yankee Fan" year for me. Just when I think they are going to be ok and pull it out, they stink up about 5 games in a row and I then realize that the team is really not very well assembled/injured/old/etc. That said, I still think they can make the wild card and then who knows ??? One saving grace - the Sawx and their fans can NEVER cry poor again after their $pending this year.
2007-07-29 07:30:19
30.   Max
I posted this on Was Watching a couple of days ago -- basically, any team in recent years in the AL that's made a serious run has played .700 ball for a 60 game stretch after hovering around .500 or a few games above it around the All-Star break.

Unfortunately, the model of this year's Yankees may be last year's Angels -- like this year's Yankees, they were under .500 at the break, played .658 ball for a stretch after, and ended up winning 89 games and missing the playoffs.

2006 Athletics

Low water mark: 23-29 (may 30th)

Record at all-star break: 45-43 (51-49 on July 25th)

High water mark: 92-66

41-17 (.707)

2006 Twins:

Low water mark: 27-34 (June 10th)

Record at ASB: 47-39

High water mark: 94-63

(67-29 .698)

2005 Yankees:

Low water mark: 11-19 (May 6th)

Record at ASB: 46-40 (51-45 on July 23rd)

High water mark: 95-66

44-19 (.698)

2005 Indians:

Low water mark: 18-23 (may 21st)

Record at ASB: 47-41 (49-48 on July 21st)

High water mark: 92-63

43-15 (.741)

2006 Angels:

Low water mark: 35-44 (June 30th)

Record at ASB: 43-45

High water mark: 89-72

54-28 (.658)

2007-07-29 07:47:29
31.   JL25and3
25 I think there's a clear and important lesson to be learned from those stats: the Yankees are a crappy fifth-inning team. It shows their lack of situational hitting - where other teams are plating buckets of runs in the fifth, the Yankees simply can't get them home.

Over the next two days, then, their priority should be to pick up one or two really good fifth-inning hitters. Astonishingly, I can't find splits on which players have the best OPS+ in the fifth inning, but I hope the Yankees have access to those stats. It could mean the difference for this season.

2007-07-29 08:24:57
32.   bbfan1
"One saving grace - the Sawx and their fans can NEVER cry poor again after their $pending this year."

The sox and their fans should never complain about being poor. That said, the yankees are spending about 46 million more than the sox this year. To call their spending equal is equally absurd.

2007-07-29 08:27:08
33.   yankz
32 Well, that 46 million has hurt more than it's helped, and is currently trying to make friends with White, DeSalvo, and Ohlendorf.
2007-07-29 08:32:24
34.   yankz
And I'm pretty sure those numbers don't include posting fees, which would move the Sox 25 million closer to the Yankees.
2007-07-29 08:37:11
35.   JL25and3
34 But it also doesn't include the luxury tax, which more than makes up that difference.
2007-07-29 09:00:19
36.   joe in boston
JL25and3 - I never called their spending equal. Living here in NewEngland, us Yankee fans have constantly heard from Sox fans about the rich Yankees. My point is that the Red Sox are no longer the "poor" team in the AL East.
2007-07-29 09:02:28
37.   JL25and3
36 I agree with you there. The Red Sox are a cash cow, and should be ashamed that they ever tried to portray themselves as having less resources than anybody.
2007-07-29 09:08:22
38.   joe in boston
37 Remember, this is a team that sold
"Championship Sod" (part of their infield) for $150 a pop !

2007-07-29 09:13:49
39.   yankz
What kind of Sox fan would talk trash this year? Didn't they set the record for most consecutive years finishing 2nd to the same team?
2007-07-29 09:17:52
40.   joe in boston
39 You'd be surprised. I've taken more crap this year than any other year. They seem to have forgotten their history, especially (gulp) now that 2004 happened. I hate it, I hate that team, I hate Schilling, I hate living here (kinda) etc etc etc

Sorry, I'm losing it !

2007-07-29 10:25:46
41.   yankz
Pretty cool SI interview with Gwynn and Ripken:

2007-07-29 10:38:59
42.   OldYanksFan
Rain delay in Baltimore?
Anybody got the news... errr... or the weather?
2007-07-29 10:40:55
43.   yankz
Ensberg DFA'd:
2007-07-29 10:42:33
44.   yankz
42 Pete says storm's probably on the way.
2007-07-29 10:50:56
45.   williamnyy23
My biggest problem with yesterday's game was Torre's managing in the 7th. By sending Clemens out in the 7th, you have to assume the Rocket felt fine. So, intead of going out by out, why not simply leave him in until he either gets hit hard or tires. Brian Roberts single was a pop up. If you would have kept in Clemens had Matsui caught the pop, it is pure foolishness to lift him because it dropped, especially if Myers is the guy coming into the game as a result.
2007-07-29 10:57:19
46.   monkeypants
31 : )

That's really funny stuff.

You do realize that I was mainly trying to make two related points (picking on poor OldYanksFan): 1] often our perceptions of the team ("they never get the runner home from third") are just that--perceptions; the reality usually doesn't match up. 2] Most of this can be pretty easily checked by scanning one of a few free websites, like

It's just like when some posts complain that the Yankees are too reliant on the long and don't have enough line drive hitters. Yet as a team they are in the top 3 in batting average, on base percentage, hits, and walks--and not in HRs. Moreover, they are something like 25th in Ks.

It's fun to complain about your favorite sports team (I do it all the time), but with just a little bit of research (runs by inning took me about 5 minutes to find) the complaining could be much more informed and interesting.

2007-07-29 10:59:36
47.   monkeypants
45 I think that Torre was trying to steal outs by going with Clemens bater-by-batter, especially against the RH to start the inning. Once he got on (hard hit or not), with two lefties coming up, going to Meyers was in theory a no brainer.

Of course, that theory rests on the operating assumption that Meyers actually gets lefties out.

2007-07-29 11:09:21
48.   williamnyy23
47 And that's my problem with Torre...the "formula" makes sense in theory only. Clemens wasn't stealing outs at that point...he was still very effective. Assuming Clemens didn't say "get me once a man gets on", it makes no sense to pull Clemens because of a bloop. The Yankees need to avoid this pen as much as possible, but Torre's comments in PeteAbe's article seems to suggest that he doesn't share the same concern. That's a problem, and why I think Torre remains as one of the team's biggest obstacles.
2007-07-29 11:14:16
49.   williamnyy23
Great Cingular commercial with Clemens...very amusing.
2007-07-29 11:19:25
50.   monkeypants
48 To be fair, though, he wasn't that effective. He had thrown 110 pitches in six innings (though big chunck in the first inning), and he had put runners on base just about every inning. Torre was never going to let him finish the seventh, throwing 125 or 130 pitches. So the choice was to go with a RHP to start the inning, and then swtch to Myers if he got in trouble.

By going with Clemens instead of, say, Bruney, Torre WAS thinking a bit outside of the managerial box, at least relative to the way BPs are handled these days. No, his failure was not that he went with Clemens for an extra batter or two, but by trusting Myers.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-07-29 11:21:26
51.   OldYanksFan
48 If Torre can't have faith in the BP, what's the point of playing. IF we reach the PS, we won't get anywhere unless our BP is effective.

If you have players that are underperforming but you need them to perform, how do you do this. By benching them? It's a difficult balance between benching someone who is hurting the team or letting them play in hopes they will regain their form.

I believe we are seeing that with JD right now.

Meanwhile... 2 on, no out.

2007-07-29 11:23:01
52.   Raf
49 Just saw that too :)

Tony Gwynn's daughter isn't that bad looking. Decent voice on her too

2007-07-29 11:23:11
53.   OldYanksFan
My kind of pitcher....
2007-07-29 11:25:06
54.   OldYanksFan
Ouch... ARod missed one.
2007-07-29 11:25:58
55.   Raf
51 There's a sense of urgency now that the Yanks really don't have the luxury of hoping Damon gets himself straightened out
2007-07-29 11:25:59
56.   OldYanksFan
He is obviously pressing....
2007-07-29 11:33:13
57.   OldYanksFan
I believe JD will play until Giambo comes back. If he stick sucks, Torre might sit him at that point. I think Torre hopes he straightens out by then.
2007-07-29 11:38:02
58.   williamnyy23
50 After the first inning is relevant though...he was pretty effective since that point. I just can't see why a bloop hit would determine whether you'd let Clemens pitch to only 2 versus 3 batters. Even if you pull him with one on and two outs, it's one less out for the bullpen.

51 Torre's comment was that external options were not needed. That's just absurd. I understand he can't kill the guys he has, but if you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all. Based on how long it took him to realize Farnsworth didn't have to be an "8th inning" guy, I believe Torre believes this pen is good enough.

56 I sure hope that doesn't lead Torre to move him down to the 8th slot.

2007-07-29 11:39:38
59.   Raf
Monte Irvin in an old man moment; cameras caught him napping during Gwynn's speech :)
2007-07-29 11:42:56
60.   williamnyy23
Andy Phillips had to hold up? Why? Did his pants fall down?
2007-07-29 11:46:14
61.   OldYanksFan
Dice-K against K-azmir. No score in the 3rd.
2007-07-29 11:52:07
62.   OldYanksFan
I'll take a BB here....
2007-07-29 11:53:12
63.   Zack
2007-07-29 12:01:25
64.   OldYanksFan
58 Good thought.
Reporter: So Joe, would you like to get some BP help?
Joe: No comment.
Reporter: Well... how about starting pitching. Could you use another arm?
Joe: I won't answer that question.
Reporter: So... you don't want Brian Cashman to get you anyone?
Joe: Sorry. Cat's got my tongue.
Reporter: Joe... do you have anything to say?
Joe: I think I've said too much already.
2007-07-29 12:01:37
65.   RIYank
Hi folks.

Our awesome outfield saved Wang a run or two that inning, huh?

2007-07-29 12:03:28
66.   Raf
You would think that all the clips MLB has at their disposal, they wouldn't show the same 5 over and over again...
2007-07-29 12:04:05
67.   OldYanksFan
If Tejada runs hard out of the box, he's safe.
Does that annoy anyone else? Someone hits a potential double but doesn't run hard until after they round 2nd? I'd fine there ass. He makes something like $15,000 per AB. Is running hard on HITS to much to ask of a PROFESSIONAL baseball player????
2007-07-29 12:04:09
68.   rufuswashere
After all those years of crappy arms in CF (Bernie, his ghost, then Damon), it's strangely wonderful to have Cabrera out there, isn't it?

An amazing play, both getting to the ball and the throw to 2nd.

2007-07-29 12:04:24
69.   RIYank
Hey, I heard a rumor (radio while driving) that Texas had given up on getting a blue chip for Gagne (Melky or Joba, for instance) and are now asking for lower-level prospects. Frazier was one -- who else? Anybody know?
2007-07-29 12:05:29
70.   RIYank
68 Exactly.
Do you think maybe Tejada was thinking he was running on Damon?
2007-07-29 12:06:29
71.   RIYank
Love me some Robbie Cano.
2007-07-29 12:11:08
72.   OldYanksFan
Today's unofficial question:
Andy currently is posting a .780 OPS.
Can he post an annual .750 OPS at the MLB level? If so, is this enough to keep him on 1st next year?
2007-07-29 12:12:50
73.   OldYanksFan
From Lohud:
"Yeah, that Johnny Damon sucks. Walked and scored, RBI single. 3-0 Yankees."
Is Pete on crack?
2007-07-29 12:14:53
74.   Zack
73 In short, Pete thinks he knows more about baseball than the "average" fan and therefore falls into the exact same patterns as Sterling, in terms of overreacting to overreactions, such as that quote. When he dabbles in analysis, he plays the fool, when he sticks to reporting, hes great...
2007-07-29 12:17:08
75.   RIYank
72 That is a good question.
I say:

(i) yes, he can; (ii) it depends on what the Yankees' alternative is, but it's disappointing for a 1B.

2007-07-29 12:21:57
76.   monkeypants
51 58 I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree. I really don't see a lack of trust in the BP, since Torre went to Myers once the first batter reached base and two lefties were coming up.

I also don't see the issue revoilving around whether Clemens would or would not be effective for another batter after one bloop basehit. He had thrown 110 pitches in 97 degree heat. Agree with it or not, Clemens was not going to finish that inning (unless, I guess, if he got three outs on five epitches).

He gave up the leadoff single, at which point Torre had to make the call: did he think that Clemens at 110+ pitches v. LH would be more effective than his LOOGY v. LH (actually, two LHs in a row). Torre went with the LOOGY.

Actually, I wish more managers would handle the BP like this. Instead of just starting the seventh with a new pitcher, you figure your starter can get the one out, then move to your specialist for the back-to-back lefties. This is far preferrable, in my mind, than starting teh inning with a RHP reliever, then the LOOGY for two batters, then switching back to another reliever. Torre was trying to save a pitcher; it didn;'t work out.

Now, if you want to question the merits of LOOGYs and BP overspecialization, or that starters should be able to throw more pitches and go deeper into games, I will probably agree with you. But that's a different discussion.

In context, I didn't think Torre's moves in the seventh, as far as pitching, were particularly noteworthy. Of course, I would have PH Duncan for Damon in the top of the inning, but that is also a separate discussion.

2007-07-29 12:26:13
77.   monkeypants
72 Yes, Andy should be able to post .750 OPS or higher for another year or two, the same way he should have been able to the last few years when he was buried at AAA.

No, that's not enough for 1B. Rather, he should be the primary BU IF (bye-bye, Miggy) and defensive replacement at 1B. But it really depends on the rest of the team and the FA/trade market. If A-Rod leaves, they really need to find at least one sluuger. If on the other hand A-Rod stays and most of the offense is still intact, and the asking price is too high--in that case he would be a more palatble stop gap than signing another Minky or Olerud.

2007-07-29 12:27:55
78.   OldYanksFan
75 Aside from Tex, there does not appear to be an obvious upgrade (FA or trade) of any magnitude, is there?

Also... if Andy feels he has the job next year to lose, might he work out or in some other way work to improve his game. A guy his age playing at the MiLB level can't be as motivated as he is now.

I know he is past 'his prime', but I believe motivation is powerful stuff. Can he make himself better?

2007-07-29 12:28:55
79.   williamnyy23
69 I heard they were scouting Marquez.
2007-07-29 12:33:01
80.   williamnyy23
73 74 I think Pete is one who wants to be liked by the players. Alot of comments seem to be written with the thought that the players will see them and ask him out to have a beer.
2007-07-29 12:35:16
81.   williamnyy23
76 Maybe I misread your post, but I think Torre trusts the bullpen too much...not the other way around.
2007-07-29 12:35:53
82.   RIYank
Marquez, that's the guy. I'd deal him for Gagne in a second, if they could get a contract extension. But my understanding was that Gagne wants to be a closer so he's not keen on the Bronx.
2007-07-29 12:37:04
83.   RIYank
Wang just doesn't have very good control today. Unless this is that one inning when he loses his mechanics? It's important for him to go at least seven innings.
2007-07-29 12:37:12
84.   OldYanksFan
77 For sake of these discussions, I think we have to voice our opinions assuming ARod stays. I say this NOT because I'm sure he will stay, but because if he leaves, we may be up for any number of changes. To some extent, it will take 2 impact players to make up for ARod.

Without ARod, we would have to seriously rethink issues we might accept if he stays (like Andy or JD at 1st, etc) I think if we have to replace his value, our whole needs needs a shakeup.

2007-07-29 12:38:07
85.   williamnyy23
If the Yankees lose this game...
2007-07-29 12:38:53
86.   RIYank

It was the walks, though. Wang is gonna give up ground ball singles, but he's gotta avoid walking Bako.
Now we need more runs, and Cabrera has settled down nicely.

2007-07-29 12:39:00
87.   monkeypants
81 I was unclear. OldYanksFan blamed Torre for not trusting the BP enough, because he didn't go to the BP to start the inning (see 51).

You think he trusts the BP too much because he did not let Clemens go more than one batter in the seventh. 58.

Interesting how those two opposing observations emerge from the same move.

2007-07-29 12:40:22
88.   OldYanksFan
Battle of the K-Corral continues. No score after 5.5 in TB.
2007-07-29 12:40:51
89.   RIYank
Whoa. Damon still has a little gas in the tank, I guess.
2007-07-29 12:41:30
90.   williamnyy23
Damon saves the day again...arm aside, he is much better than Matsui in LF.
2007-07-29 12:41:59
91.   monkeypants
84 OK, for teh sake of discussion A-Rod stays. Andy Phillips with a .750-.800 OPS at 1B all year is not a very exciting prospect, especially if we also assume regression from Posada and A-Rod, and what can they expect to get from Giambi next year?

I love the Andy story, but they really would need to consider an upgrade at 1B if the price is reasonable.

2007-07-29 12:42:47
92.   monkeypants
90 He should be, since he is a CF!
2007-07-29 12:43:19
93.   fansince77
Wow- is there any question who should be in left Matsui/Damon? That's three runs Damon has given us today.
2007-07-29 12:44:22
94.   matt nokes forever
92 Thank god that was hit to left and not right... Waaaay too close to the wall for Dulce.
2007-07-29 12:44:23
95.   RIYank
Weeping must be happy today. The lefties are hitting to the opposite field. Doubles to left for Rob and Bob.
2007-07-29 12:44:35
96.   fansince77
God- I love when Abreu goes the other way. Beautiful
2007-07-29 12:46:10
97.   RIYank
That was a control-walk to Alex, not a scared walk.
2007-07-29 12:46:34
98.   monkeypants
93 This season, for now, it should be Damon. But what do you do if Giambi comes back? Bench Matsui and DH Giambi? Bench Giambi and and DH Matsui? And next year?

Damon plays a slick LF, but in the long run he won't hit enough to warrant playing him out there.

2007-07-29 12:46:43
99.   OldYanksFan
Does Matsui make that catch? I say not. And the guy can reach homeplate from deep SS. Just ask Millar.

87 You mis-understood me. I LIKED leaving Roger in. I was more replying to the general idea that going to the BP is 'conceding' the game. My point was only that Torre is in a tough situation having an unreliable BP, and that he needs to have faith in them in hopes they have faith in themselves.

2007-07-29 12:46:56
100.   matt nokes forever
It's great to see pitchers still scared to pitch to ARod with RISP, even when he's slumping.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-07-29 12:47:40
101.   monkeypants
95 Oh Matsui! Now Weeping is weeping. : (
2007-07-29 12:49:14
102.   RIYank
99 No, Matsui doesn't make that catch, but he hit much better than Damon. (That crappy pop-up just now aside.)

Okay, a hit by Andy and Cabrera is gone...

2007-07-29 12:49:18
103.   matt nokes forever
Up to Andy again
2007-07-29 12:49:25
104.   williamnyy23
If they squander this opportunity, I am going to start getting a very bad feeling about this game. A loss here would be horrible.
2007-07-29 12:49:53
105.   RIYank
Oops. Andy doesn't get the chance.
That inning started off so promising.
2007-07-29 12:49:53
106.   matt nokes forever
104 ...speaking of which
2007-07-29 12:50:16
107.   fansince77
Wow the yankees seem like a team about to give a game away. This fucking sucks!
2007-07-29 12:50:49
108.   RIYank
101 He enjoys a little tragedy, though, so in the deeper sense he's still happy.
2007-07-29 12:51:49
109.   williamnyy23
104 Wow...they get Abreu sleeping...that's different. I am getting very tired of Abreu's streaky, lackluster style of play. Between not hitting a lick against lefties and playing the OF like its a minefield, he has been by far the biggest villain on this year's team. He is quickly becoming a platoon player...I can imagine a scenario in which the Yankees would want to pick up that option.
2007-07-29 12:52:58
110.   williamnyy23
If this team had any depth, I'd have pulled him from the game.
2007-07-29 12:55:47
111.   rbs10025
73,74,80 A ton of whiney comments get posted to Pete's blog, especially now that he's getting hundreds of game comments per game rather than 20-30 from a year ago, and I think he has to police the comments himself. Add in his self-confessed sarcasm and you get him making statements like that, almost on a regular basis.
2007-07-29 12:56:12
112.   joe in boston
[109-110] Agreed. No intensity this year it seems from Abreu - what gives ? If you were him, wouldn't you think that last years'
trade was a blessing ? A chance for a ring? A chance to continue last year's great 1/2 season ? He has really frustrated me this year...
2007-07-29 12:57:20
113.   OldYanksFan
98 This assumes re-signing or replacing Bobby. If so, I think JD spends time at 1B and LF, Giambi at DH and 1B during interleague, Matsui at LF and DH, Andy at 1B against lefties.

I do not believe they can just sit JD. If they can't trade him, they will find a place for him. Hopefully they understand benching Melky and putting JD in CF is unacceptable.
They REALLY need to be able to have him at 1B so Melky, Giambi and Matsui can all play at the same time.

I also believe JD is embarassed by his play this year. I anticipate he will work hard this offseason to prove to us in 2008 that he is not done. He has already commented that he was a bit overweight and not in the best shape. The guy has pride. I think he will work hard to have a productive 2008 and be happy to play where ever we put him.

2007-07-29 12:57:56
114.   WeMissPaulie
I agree, they should have pulled Abreu after a little league mistake like that. Put Matsui in.
2007-07-29 13:00:59
115.   RIYank
114 Wait, you think the Yankees should give up the DH in order to teach Bobby Abreu a lesson???

113 I'm absolutely certain that Abreu is embarrassed by his play. He'll be better next year. He won't be good enough for his salary, but we all knew that would happen.

2007-07-29 13:01:01
116.   williamnyy23
Kay reports Chamberlain will pitch out of the pen in AAA.
2007-07-29 13:01:14
117.   OldYanksFan
114 I don't think you can move a DH to a position. If Abru is out, Duncan is in.
2007-07-29 13:01:49
118.   randym77
113 Except Andy's not so good against lefties. This was true last year, too, so I don't think it's just a fluke.
2007-07-29 13:01:49
119.   RIYank
Damn, in 115 I mean 'Damon' in the second paragraph, not 'Abreu'. Sorry.
2007-07-29 13:02:27
120.   matt nokes forever
115 Then he can be better next year in some other city because he's worn out his welcome here after this season.
2007-07-29 13:02:28
121.   RIYank
117 You can, but you lose the DH and the pitcher bats for himself.
2007-07-29 13:02:32
122.   williamnyy23
Melky not busting it there...I really hope they don't expect to coast to win today.
2007-07-29 13:03:01
123.   OldYanksFan
K-azmir is out. Sox with man on 1st and 3rd, 2 out, Lugo up, top of the 7th. Currently scoreless.
2007-07-29 13:03:05
124.   matt nokes forever
119 OK, that makes more sense.
2007-07-29 13:03:10
125.   RIYank
120 Sorry, I meant 'Damon' in that part.
2007-07-29 13:04:29
126.   monkeypants
113 Ah, but look at Andy's splits against LHP! And if Damon can't hit enough for LF, he certainly won't hit enough for 1B!

You're probably correct, though, in the sense that any team with a DH/1B rotation that includes Damon and Giambi is bound to see a lot of time on the DL (or, in Damon's case, just playing ineffectively and periodically 'resting').

I disagree that they just can't bench him. He makes a really nice fourth OF, defensive replacement, and gap filler when the inevitable injuries come. In other words, I would treat 2008 Damon just like what 2007 Melky was supposed to be, except he makes $12 million.

2007-07-29 13:05:20
127.   OldYanksFan
121 So Duncan in RF would be the better alternative. But Torre does not punish veteran players. And maybe that's a good thing.

Lugo grounds out to 3rd. 0-0 after 7.5 innings in TB.

2007-07-29 13:06:45
128.   RIYank
So do youse think that's it for Cabrera? Or will he pitch to another batter or two?
108 pitches, is why I ask.
2007-07-29 13:07:13
129.   williamnyy23
Wang's biggest problem today has been his defense. He is usually great on balls hit up the middle, but today more than a few have gone off his glove or made it through.
2007-07-29 13:07:18
130.   monkeypants
127 I would love to see them experiment woth Duncan in OF. But, from what I have read, if you don't like Matsui in LF, Duncan in RF will absolutely kill you.
2007-07-29 13:08:44
131.   RIYank
San Diego scored eleven runs in the first inning today. Houston scored seven in the fifth. Wild.
2007-07-29 13:09:49
132.   RIYank
129 And if I'm not mistaken, all three balls that he deflected with his glove would have been easy outs (and one would have been a DP -- instead Jeter managed to get the lead runner only).
2007-07-29 13:11:15
133.   williamnyy23
2007-07-29 13:11:32
134.   RIYank
Wang has walked Bako three times. I'd have to say that is his worst problem today.
2007-07-29 13:12:17
135.   williamnyy23
The Yankees really look destined to lose this game.
2007-07-29 13:12:44
136.   RIYank
Man, those walks to Bako have been costly. Jeez.
2007-07-29 13:12:59
137.   randym77
The little pest strikes again.
2007-07-29 13:14:17
138.   williamnyy23
135 Incredible...weekends like this really make me question whether I am completely fooling myself into thinking this team has any chance to accomplish something this season.

For an important game, the lack of concentration is pretty disturbing.

2007-07-29 13:14:27
139.   RIYank
Bako against Wang lifetime:
6 plate appearances, five walks and an out.
2007-07-29 13:14:45
140.   OldYanksFan
130 I'm NOT for it... just a response to 'removing Abreu' and making him stand in the corner.

126 I'm not sure you can write off 2008 JD as "playing ineffectively". If he gets 550 or so ABs instead of 700, plays LF but also spends some time at 1B (and occasionally DH) he may remain healthy and effective.

Wang once again on thin ice.
Shit! Broken ice!

TB scores 1. Dice-k heads for the shower.
Dice-K has been EXtremely effective of late. Ace material.

2007-07-29 13:14:59
141.   Yankees Brasil
you know you desearve to lose when you can´t retire Bako and Hernandez
2007-07-29 13:17:47
142.   RIYank
Okay, let's roast this bullpen.
2007-07-29 13:18:11
143.   OldYanksFan
Wow. Yank Abreu's ass and we don't deserve to win.
Punative bunch, aren't we.
2007-07-29 13:18:54
144.   monkeypants
140 My reference to 'playing ineffectively' was meant to be taken with my prediction that the aging roster would endure inevitable injuries. When some players are injured--like Giambi this year--they go on the DL. When others are injured--like Damon earlier this year--they stink it up but stay on the active roster. Damon can work out all he wants, and eat his Wheaties, and take vitamins, and say his prayers before bed time--it won't matter. We've been down this path before: he's entered into the aging always slightly injured phase of his career.
2007-07-29 13:21:18
145.   williamnyy23
140 I'm not sure about ace. He was good against Tampa today and Cleveland last time (although the Indians have been in a slump of late), but before that he had three below par starts. Also, if you look at his game log, his best starts have been against bad hitting teams (especially a stretch against the NL of Ariz, SD and SF).
2007-07-29 13:21:31
146.   monkeypants
140 Moreover, even if healthy, Damon has always been a flaky a player--a few great seasons like 2006, and a few real stinkers, and a bunch in the middle. But his career averages, if we assume that he will reach thiose again at age thirty-whatever, won't warrant him getting 550 ABs in LF/DH/1B. That's sacrificing a lot of offense.
2007-07-29 13:22:15
147.   OldYanksFan
"Hmmmmm. Boston with 6 outs needing 1 run against the worst BP on the planet. Odds seem really bad."

This was before Upton CREAMED a 2 out, 3 run HR!!!!!!!!
TB up 4-0!!!! in the 7th.

2007-07-29 13:22:57
148.   RIYank
The Return of Captain Clutch.
2007-07-29 13:23:36
149.   williamnyy23
146 Not the old Damon inconsistent debate :)
2007-07-29 13:23:51
150.   RIYank
147 Excellent, I'm going to turn the Sox on the radio. (I love Castiglione when they're losing.)

146 But, just so we're clear: you agree that he'll be better next year than this year, right?

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-07-29 13:24:34
151.   OldYanksFan
Oops.. not Upton, but Pena. But still CREAMED off of Manny Declare-me-a-man.

Wait. No! Upton PLUS Pena! Back to back. TB up 5-1!!! Yahoo!!!

2007-07-29 13:24:58
152.   RIYank
Are they going to walk Alex? That would be STUPID.

They are! Excellent!

2007-07-29 13:25:22
153.   OldYanksFan
Sorry guys. I'm too old to try and watch 2 games at once!
2007-07-29 13:25:28
154.   pistolpete
Oh c'mon, O's - grow a set.
2007-07-29 13:25:55
155.   williamnyy23
Wow...I am at a loss for words. Abreu continues to be a liability. I am bordering on dislike now.
2007-07-29 13:26:14
156.   monkeypants
149 Sorry Wilbur, I just got car-ree-he-he-heed away [whinnie, snort].

; )

2007-07-29 13:26:56
157.   RIYank
HA! Matsui-san does the job.
2007-07-29 13:27:00
158.   williamnyy23
At least the bad feeling barometer goes down a little with that "producitve" out.
2007-07-29 13:27:00
159.   pistolpete
Ugh, one's better than none I 'spose
2007-07-29 13:27:54
160.   RIYank
Just for a little perspective here: Abreu's July OPS is .887.
2007-07-29 13:28:22
161.   williamnyy23
3IP and 1 run against Parrish...this offense better wake up over the next two innings and heading into Chicago.
2007-07-29 13:28:38
162.   monkeypants
150 "But, just so we're clear: you agree that he'll be better next year than this year, right?"

Nope, I'm not convinced one way or another. I thought Bernie would come back after the second half of 2002, and he never did. And Bernie was twice the player Damon was.

2007-07-29 13:30:20
163.   RIYank
162 Hm, okay. I predict he'll regress toward his mean (not all the way to his mean, esp. since he's so bimodal).

This I don't get. Wang was under 90 pitches, right?

2007-07-29 13:30:45
164.   OldYanksFan
I assume we are intentionally avoiding big innings to keep this game exciting?

To clarify:
Solo HR by Gomes (off Dice-K)
3 run HR by Upton off Manny D.
Solo HR by Pena off Manny D.

Sox with 4 outs to go. 5-0.
Can the TB BP get 4 outs before giving up 5 runs?

2007-07-29 13:31:02
165.   williamnyy23
160 Even as mediocre as they are, Abreu's numbers have been misleading all season. He has not only been streaky, but he has also been inept agaisnt lefties. Consistency has value and Abreu hasn't had much of it this season.
2007-07-29 13:31:37
166.   RIYank
No, he was at 94, but still I don't see why he doesn't start the seventh.
2007-07-29 13:31:44
167.   OldYanksFan
Manny R. CRUSHES one. 5-1.
Can the TB BP get 4 outs before giving up 4 runs?
2007-07-29 13:32:12
168.   williamnyy23
Two non-Mo innings is very scary, especially with Farnsworth looming in the 8th. Wang had 94 pitches...with his worst stuff, I trust him much more then this pen.
2007-07-29 13:32:44
169.   OldYanksFan
MY FUCKING GOD! Youk goes deep!
Can the TB BP get 4 outs before giving up 3 runs?
2007-07-29 13:33:43
170.   williamnyy23
Great...lead off many batters before this turns ugly?
2007-07-29 13:33:48
171.   monkeypants
FWIW, Kay was reporting that Joba was moved into the SWB bullpen today. I type this as Viz gives up a smash down the line.
2007-07-29 13:34:12
172.   williamnyy23
Viz is hanging the's not if, but when now...thanks Joe.
2007-07-29 13:34:59
173.   williamnyy23
169 Forget about Boston...the Yankees cant even beat Baltimore as Torre once again puts the team's fate in an awful bullpen.
2007-07-29 13:36:42
174.   RIYank
173 I said he should have left Wang in, but "an awful bullpen" is not a fair description of Vizcaino this past month.
2007-07-29 13:36:46
175.   OldYanksFan
Holy shit. TB BP against the Red Sox.
17 innings
12 runs
16 hits
12 BBs
3 HRs

I think the odds are against us.
Wow... Lowell makes the 3rd out.
5-2, bottom of the 8th.

2007-07-29 13:37:42
176.   williamnyy23
174 Viz hasn't been awful, but the workflow is mounting and Farnsworth is clearly being earmarked for the 8th. The writing seems to be on the wall, but Torre can't read it.
2007-07-29 13:38:17
177.   RIYank
175 No problem, that's less than a run an inning, and Boston now needs three!
2007-07-29 13:39:04
178.   RIYank
176 Yeah, it was the eighth that was worrying me, too. I bet he's prepared to go to Mo for more than three outs.
2007-07-29 13:39:47
179.   williamnyy23
175 I think you are worrying about the wrong bullpen ;)
2007-07-29 13:40:48
180.   pistolpete
Did anyone else sense how rough this series was gonna be from just those 2 innings on Friday night? I sure did.
2007-07-29 13:41:17
181.   williamnyy23
Geez...not even a strong throw with plent of time to set up...Bobby brought his F-game today. Meanwhile, the margin of error has been erased and the bad feeling barometer has gone up.
2007-07-29 13:41:46
182.   RIYank
That was only Vizcaino's third ER in his last 16 innings, so he's been good this month. Still, I'd be much happier if that were the eighth inning that just ended with a 1-run lead. Now we have to live through... Farns? Or does Proctor get another shot???
2007-07-29 13:42:24
183.   monkeypants
173 174 Tough call on this inning, too. Wang only had 90+ pitches, but he really wasn't that effective. With the off day tomorrow Torre will probably go two innings with Mo. So it looks like he went with his best set-up reliever, Viz for the seventh. Part of me can't fault him for going for the jugular here, but the mounting workload is a concern. All those days of Mordechai Six Pitchers Torre do add up.

Hopefully they score 8 runs in teh top of the eighth and take away the drama.

2007-07-29 13:43:20
184.   OldYanksFan
173 Wang: 93 pitches, 6 IPs, 3 ERs, 9 hits, 4 BBs. Thats a WHIP of ???
Not unreasonable to go to the BP (as scary as that is for everyone).

Again... if we can't trust the BP, why even want to play in the PS?

2007-07-29 13:43:52
185.   monkeypants
182 My prediction: Mo for two innings, or Viz batter-by -batter (until a leftie, then Myers, then Mo for one+ inning).
2007-07-29 13:45:10
186.   RIYank
Mo for two innings?? No way.
Let's see, for Bako I bet he goes to Myers, then somebody, maybe Farns or Proctor, for Hernandez.
2007-07-29 13:45:50
187.   monkeypants
I do think that you have to PH Jorge for Molina this inning, especially with the off day coming up.
2007-07-29 13:46:41
188.   RIYank
Two reasons to stick with Wang:
1. It saves wear on the bullpen.
2. On a mediocre day he's still better than anyone in the pen except Viz and Mo.
2007-07-29 13:47:22
189.   williamnyy23
184 Once again, Wang with a blind fold on is better than a decision that makes Farnsworth likely to pitch in the 8th.

I don't follow your logic about the pen. Outside of Mo and Viz for a short period of time, it hasn't been very good. If the Yankees make the PS, it will be in spite of the bullpen (and Torre's use of it). Should they get there, hopefully Chamberlain and Britton will have been integrated. Also, it could shift Moose or Hughes to the pen. In other words, if my ship is going to sink, I am throwing the bullpen overboard first!

2007-07-29 13:47:28
190.   RIYank
It looks like 'somebody' is going to be Farns, saving Myers for a more dangerous lefty than Bako.
2007-07-29 13:48:07
191.   williamnyy23
Farns is warming...doom is impending.
2007-07-29 13:49:11
192.   OldYanksFan
Did Cano get an error on that play? Should it has been an out? Did Viz pitch that poorly?
2007-07-29 13:49:18
193.   RIYank
I'd have Damon bunt. Just for the record.
2007-07-29 13:50:07
194.   RIYank
192 No, it was a hit.
2007-07-29 13:50:09
195.   pistolpete
Oh goody - Abreu's coming up again soon.
2007-07-29 13:50:09
196.   williamnyy23
I've said this many times, but 2006 Damon goes deep here.
2007-07-29 13:51:04
197.   williamnyy23
192 He may have had Tejada, but I can't blame him for bobbling a ball that bounced off the pitcher's shoulder. I'm sure the ball had some odd spin.
2007-07-29 13:51:22
198.   monkeypants
193 I wouldn't, not with one out. But I certainly share your basic sentiment.
2007-07-29 13:51:40
199.   RIYank
Good thing I'm not the field manager! (193)
2007-07-29 13:51:45
200.   pistolpete
Wow, we looked like we did that on purpose!
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-07-29 13:52:14
201.   williamnyy23
After one if his lowest points, Damon really had a big game. In fact, he might be player of the game.
2007-07-29 13:52:21
202.   OldYanksFan
The often useless JD! HA!
2007-07-29 13:52:56
203.   RIYank
198 Jesus, I forgot there was an out already.
If I don't use Gameday I'm lost ;-)
2007-07-29 13:54:45
204.   pistolpete
2007-07-29 13:54:55
205.   RIYank
Damn, I hoped Abreu would get to hit the righty.
2007-07-29 13:55:25
206.   williamnyy23
I would think you'd have to bring in a lefty here?
2007-07-29 13:56:00
207.   monkeypants
OK, now Abreu should take all the way; swing at nothing. Then at least A-Rod will get his third (!!) chance to do some damage with the bases jammed.
2007-07-29 13:57:08
208.   RIYank
Oh, Bobby does get a righty.
2007-07-29 13:57:09
209.   williamnyy23
205 He will...Baez throws with his right hand.
2007-07-29 13:57:13
210.   monkeypants
206 Hypothetical: if the LHP comes in, would you PH Duncan (a real K and DP chance) and move Matsui to the OF, or take your chances with Bobby?
2007-07-29 13:57:40
211.   monkeypants
Oh, Baez...mute point.
2007-07-29 13:57:57
212.   RIYank
Huh. I guess they don't have a lefty left in the pen.
2007-07-29 13:58:20
213.   Raf
drunken fans are annoying
2007-07-29 13:58:40
214.   williamnyy23
210 I wouldn't remove the DH. Duncan is a nice story, but I'd need to have a ton of confidence in him to make that move.
2007-07-29 13:59:16
215.   williamnyy23
212 Jamie Walker.
2007-07-29 13:59:57
216.   RIYank
Sox have one on and one out in the ninth.
2007-07-29 14:00:30
217.   RIYank

Bring on the Farns!

2007-07-29 14:00:34
218.   monkeypants
214 The DH position wouldn't come up again until extra innings. Are you more concerned with losing the DH, or just less confident in Duncan than Abreu v. LHP?
2007-07-29 14:01:12
219.   williamnyy23
No pressure now Alex...
2007-07-29 14:01:43
220.   RIYank
212 Right, but I think he's pitched too much in the last day or two, yes? Otherwise it's nuts not to call on him for Abreu.
2007-07-29 14:02:04
221.   williamnyy23
216 Of greater relevance at this point, the Indians lost a CC game, 4-1 to the twins.
2007-07-29 14:02:39
222.   OldYanksFan
189 My point is they are OUR shitty BP. We can't avoid them. We need to count on them. We have to hope they can modulate their suckatude just enough so we can squeek out a win.

Will the Yanks bring up Joba to pitch in the PS??? Maybe... but that seems risky. Hughes or Moose in the BP? A four man rotation could put Moose there, but is that an upgrade over what's there now? Britton is Bruney and Bruney is Britton. Either a K or a BB. Not exactly reliable.

I DO share you fear of our BP. But we are stuck with them and extending a relatively poor SP from Wang on a hot, humid day is not a great alternative.

We can only hope, like Viz, someone else can turn it around.

2007-07-29 14:02:47
223.   RIYank
218 Yeah, good point. I bet it's a pretty close call.
2007-07-29 14:02:59
224.   OldYanksFan
TB wins 5-2!
2007-07-29 14:04:04
225.   RIYank
Sox lose.
2007-07-29 14:04:25
226.   williamnyy23
220 Three in a row, but so did Parrish, so I guess he wasn't available.

Bobby almost walked off second...amazing.

Joe...when you are asked that question, just say no!! Please don't get back in the business of analyzing Alex.

2007-07-29 14:04:37
227.   pistolpete
Sox lose!
2007-07-29 14:05:38
228.   williamnyy23
218 I dont have a lot of confidence in Duncan and even less in Farns holding the lead, which would make extra innings a real possibility.
2007-07-29 14:05:40
229.   OldYanksFan
ALRIGHT!!!! ARod has 6 games to get #500 at the Stadium. This is very good.
2007-07-29 14:07:17
230.   RIYank
2007-07-29 14:07:38
231.   pistolpete
2007-07-29 14:10:06
232.   RIYank
231 I had to think about that one for a minute, but now I'm smiling.
2007-07-29 14:10:27
233.   williamnyy23
222 But we can and should avoid them as much as possible. If that means Clemens and Wang getting one more out than you'd otherwise expect, so be it.

It definitely seems as if Joba is coming up to be in the pen. Why else would they move him to the pen in Scranton? With his stuff, he could have an KROD type impact.

As for Britton, he is not Bruney. In 59 IP, Britton has walked 18. In 140 IPs, however, Bruney has walked 106!!!

Knowing Torre, he would probably shift Hughes to the pen instead of Moose. So, that would add another top arm to the mix. Even Moose, if he bought in, would be better than Farns, Proctor, Villone, et al.

2007-07-29 14:10:29
234.   monkeypants
228 Good point. I have a sneaking suspicion that Farnsworth would have been on a short leash, with Mo being called in quickly. But it doesn't matter at this point.

Now, I do hope that Mordechai can find a way to close out this game using only one pitcher.

2007-07-29 14:11:36
235.   MARH
222 "Britton is Bruney and Bruney is Britton. Either a K or a BB. Not exactly reliable."

I must object. Your unfairness to Britton is nearly Torre-esque!
Britton, ML career: 58.7IP 18BB 43K
Bruney, ML career: 137.7IP 106BB 138K

2007-07-29 14:12:23
236.   MARH
233 sorry, I'm slow.
2007-07-29 14:15:14
237.   RIYank
I'm not sure whether to hope Farns pitches really well. If he does, maybe someone will be willing to take him off our hands tomorrow. But, if he pitches well and we don't trade him, Torre might use him a lot more.

Okay, that answers that question. Theme for today: Walking Bako.

2007-07-29 14:15:58
238.   williamnyy23
If Farnsworth can't throw strikes to Paul Bako with a 6 run lead, he will never be reliable. Cashman has to get him off the team before the deadline.
2007-07-29 14:16:37
239.   monkeypants
Paul Bako: career OBP .306.
2007-07-29 14:17:26
240.   RIYank
Hm, maybe Kyle doesn't want to be traded?
2007-07-29 14:17:50
241.   monkeypants
Uh-oh. Mordechai is getting nervous in the dug out.
2007-07-29 14:18:31
242.   williamnyy23
Farnsworth is disgusting...Billy Martin would walk to the mound, grab the ball from him and throw it at him as he walked back to the dugout.

PLEASE him or release him. If money is concerned, I'll gladly pay a surcharge on every ticket to fund the amount.

2007-07-29 14:19:56
243.   Ravenscar
Edwar had HOW many bad outings before he was tossed? One? Allow me to be not the first to suggest that Farnsworth knows to much. Or something.
2007-07-29 14:20:03
244.   rconn23
Paul Bako has 10 walks for the entire season. Today he has 4. His .OBP this season is .267.

Ladies and Gentleman... The 2007 Yankees.

2007-07-29 14:20:25
245.   Yankees Brasil
He could give up another run so Mo can pick up a save!
2007-07-29 14:21:34
246.   WeMissPaulie
Why is Jeter out?
2007-07-29 14:21:51
247.   randym77
I can see giving up a hit to Brian Roberts, card-carrying ALS, but a homer? He hasn't hit many homers since he went off the juice.
2007-07-29 14:22:16
248.   pistolpete
Where exactly would Farnsworth be traded when he pitches like this?

Would there happen to be a team in the league with a retarded chimpanzee for a GM?

2007-07-29 14:22:16
249.   williamnyy23
Cairo in for Jeter? I would never call off the dogs when Farnsworth is in the game.
2007-07-29 14:22:31
250.   monkeypants
246 Because they had a big lead, so Mordechai game him two innings off.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-07-29 14:22:56
251.   WeMissPaulie
Please pickoff attempts.
2007-07-29 14:23:00
252.   RIYank
245 Hey that's right. In fact, if he gives up another base runner it's a save situation!
2007-07-29 14:23:32
253.   randym77
Oh, man. Jorgie's PO'd.
2007-07-29 14:23:36
254.   WeMissPaulie
Get him out.
2007-07-29 14:23:41
255.   williamnyy23
Farnsworth is an ass. I loved Posada's look. It's the same look every Yankee fan has been giving him for 2 years.
2007-07-29 14:23:57
256.   monkeypants
Now Farnsworth is trying kill Posada. Mordechai is reaching for the phone.
2007-07-29 14:24:02
257.   Ravenscar
WOW - I don't watch the Yankees as much as the Mets, but is that a look from Posada that could literally get someone traded, like, the next DAY?
2007-07-29 14:24:27
258.   RIYank
2007-07-29 14:24:59
259.   OldYanksFan
233 I don't totally disagree with you but you make assumptions that MAY not hold water:

"If that means Clemens and Wang getting one more out than you'd otherwise expect, so be it."
... Hell YES, if they can get an OUT. Can you guarantee they are going to get an OUT?

... I agree about Joba, but it's to be seen if he's ready for HIGH PRESSURE WE WON'T MAKE THE POST SEASON IF YOU SCREW UP pressure on a guy with Joba's experience. He could be great. He could be shit. He could hurt himself TRYING too hard (ala Hughes).

"In 59 IP, Britton has walked 18. In 140 IPs, however, Bruney has walked 106!!!"

... Are those MLB innings? No? Are these MiLB innings the same as HIGH PRESSURE WE WON'T MAKE THE POST SEASON IF YOU SCREW UP innings. What is Brittons MLB history?

"Knowing Torre, he would probably shift Hughes to the pen instead of Moose. So, that would add another top arm to the mix. Even Moose, if he bought in, would be better than Farns, Proctor, Villone, et al."

Maybe... but if Hughes is drastically better then Moose, I think he will bite-the-buttet and start Hughes. FWIW, Mosse has a worse ERA then anyone in the BP. But a better bet then Farns? Hell Yes, but so is Weeping....

And Farns..... never fails to disappoint. I'd swap him for Britton is a microsecond.

2007-07-29 14:25:28
260.   RIYank
257 God I hope so.
2007-07-29 14:27:14
261.   monkeypants
258 Not yet. By my calculation, Mordechai still has a couple pitchers to burn through, so there is still hope for Mo.
2007-07-29 14:27:18
262.   nick
I logged in just to say that, after careful deliberation, after more than 20 yrs of fanhood, I can safely say that the Farns is my most loathed Yankee of all time...
2007-07-29 14:28:16
263.   RIYank
Melky helps his slg pct.
2007-07-29 14:28:32
264.   OldYanksFan
233 and 235 My Bad. I stand corrected. I humbly beg forgiveness. I must ask. Why is Britton still on the farm. I thought he had control issues. Do we have an ERA and WHIP to go with Britton's numbers?
2007-07-29 14:29:54
265.   williamnyy23
259 I am not guaranteeing anything, but simply stating that I trust a tiring Clemens/Wang about 1,000,000% more than nearly every non-Mo member of the pen. Along the same lines, I am willing to take a chance on what Joba can do because I know what many in the Yankees pen can't do.

As for Britton/Bruney, yes, those are major league innings.

Finally, I wish I could be confident that Torre would start Hughes over Moose, but I also wish he would have used Mo instead of Weaver in the 2003 World Series.

2007-07-29 14:30:05
266.   RIYank
Poor Patterson.

262 Uh oh, now all of Farnsworth's defenders are going to jump all over you!

(chirp, chirp, chirp)

2007-07-29 14:30:32
267.   williamnyy23
262 He has passed Matt Nokes on my list.
2007-07-29 14:30:40
268.   monkeypants
259 ""In 59 IP, Britton has walked 18. In 140 IPs, however, Bruney has walked 106!!!"

... Are those MLB innings? No? Are these MiLB innings the same as HIGH PRESSURE WE WON'T MAKE THE POST SEASON IF YOU SCREW UP innings. What is Brittons MLB history?""

Um, wrong. Those are 59 ML innings. Last year he pitched 53+ INN, 17 BB, 41 K, 1.17 WHIP, 3.35 ERA, 135 ERA +.

You can look it up on

2007-07-29 14:31:14
269.   williamnyy23
264 He is on the farm because he is young and Torre probably wouldn't use him (see Edwar).
2007-07-29 14:32:24
270.   monkeypants
268 Ooops, I posted before I saw 264.
2007-07-29 14:33:28
271.   williamnyy23
264 Britton had a 1.174 WHIP/3.35ERA and 135 ERA+ in 58 IP for Baltimore last season. He also pitched in the AL East, so the translation is a little easier. In his brief stint this season, he has pitched 5IP, 1R, 1H, 1BB, so clearly, he is not ready for prime time.
2007-07-29 14:35:17
272.   OldYanksFan
259 As I said, My Bad 3.35 ERA. His numbers look good. So there is no good reason he is not up with the team? Start a petition. I'll sign.

Wow, Just looked up Edwar. Height: 6'3" Weight: 150. That's disturbing.

2007-07-29 14:35:52
273.   RIYank
268 In fact, it's easier than 'looking it up', because you can look over in the sidebar to the right, find Britton (40-man), and click on one of the reference links.

I mention this because although in some sense I've known it for quite a while, I only recently realized how useful it is.

2007-07-29 14:36:14
274.   williamnyy23
Rivera in another 4 RUN+ game! That's now 17 out of 41!!

When you consider Torre' decision to put Cairo in likely cost the Yankees a few more runs, he bears even more blame for continuing to use Mo in the most inefficient manner possible.

Even should they win, Torre has managed another poor game, which doesn't bode well. It's really a shame.

2007-07-29 14:36:19
275.   OldYanksFan
266 Farnsworth has no supporters
2007-07-29 14:37:29
276.   OldYanksFan
Look... I would appreciate if you guys could think and type slower. Much slower.
2007-07-29 14:37:41
277.   RIYank
I don't like when someone gets a line-drive hit off Mo, but Tejada's pretty good, and he did make Huff look stupid.
2007-07-29 14:39:25
278.   RIYank
275 I know, that was the point of my (chirp, chirp, chirp). Those were the crickets you could hear in the ensuing silence.

I bet Bako doesn't walk a fifth time.

2007-07-29 14:40:10
279.   williamnyy23
What the hell is going on with Bako? Does he have ball repellent in his cologne?
2007-07-29 14:40:52
280.   williamnyy23
If Mo goes to 3 balls, I think he should just hit Bako.
2007-07-29 14:41:03
281.   SF Yanks
Is it just me or does Mo's cutter seem to have more bite than usual? It seems like he starts it on the outside corner and it moves all the way across to the inside corner. Before I thought it only moved about half the plate.
2007-07-29 14:41:52
282.   RIYank
Incredible. That's not the way I wanted to be right 278.
2007-07-29 14:41:59
283.   OldYanksFan
274 Torre, in an attempt to 'save' Mo, has misused him terribly. However, underuse is almost as bad as overuse. He should be in every third game, or at worst every forth game, regardless of the situation.
2007-07-29 14:42:07
284.   williamnyy23
If Roberts comes up as the tying run, I'll be sick.
2007-07-29 14:42:23
285.   pistolpete
279 LMAO
2007-07-29 14:42:37
286.   randym77
278 And you win the bet. :-P
2007-07-29 14:43:11
287.   bartap74
Wow - their utility infielder kicks the crap out of our utility infielder.
2007-07-29 14:43:45
288.   RIYank
It doesn't matter, but I'm glad Mo didn't give up two runs there.

So, did we deserve to win that game?

2007-07-29 14:44:28
289.   williamnyy23
283 There have been plenty of close games in which Torre has saved Mo for save situations, which has resulted in his not getting enough work. Mariano is one of the Yankees main weapons. Failing to use him correctly is a serious indictment on Torre.
2007-07-29 14:44:37
290.   pistolpete
Finally. Yeesh.

Well, IMO, the fact that we made up a game in each of the standings makes up for Saturday's disaster.

2007-07-29 14:44:49
291.   OldYanksFan
Hmmmm. I'm surprised. Mo has averaged 75 IP over the last 4 years. He has 43 IP so far this year. My 'perception' was less. So he has pitcher 'enough', just not in the right situations.
2007-07-29 14:45:28
292.   randym77
well, that was a little more interesting than it needed to be. I'm unreasonably relieved that Brian Roberts was left on deck.

And maybe JD is finally turning it around...

2007-07-29 14:45:52
293.   RIYank
287 I'd pay to watch that.
2007-07-29 14:49:11
294.   OldYanksFan
Do I take in that today we believe we can make the WC?
2007-07-29 14:51:04
295.   randym77
294 Yeah, if "WC" stands for "water closet."
2007-07-29 14:51:58
296.   bartap74
I think we need to trade Farnsworth and Torre to the Braves for Bobby Cox ASAP.
2007-07-29 14:58:36
297.   monkeypants
273 Cliff and Alex are clever little devils, aren't they!

289 et al. Unfortunately, once he started to warm up, Mo was more or less committed to come in the game. The problem is that often Torre overreacts. Yeah, we all joke that Farnsworth is inflammable and no lead is safe, but even when he gave up a couple of runs, the Whacker still had the advantage (one out, four run lead). There ws no reason even to begin to warm Mo until a higher leverage situation was eminent. But then, if he was willing to go with Mo with one out in the eighth, which compelled him to use him with a four run lead in the ninth, then Torre might as we have used him for two innings-especially wth an off day tomorrow.

2007-07-29 15:11:20
298.   marc
He had to bring in Mo. Who the hell else would he bring in? Vizcaino was used already. What on Earth are you going to wait for?
2007-07-29 15:23:45
299.   monkeypants
298 My point is that he didn't need to bring in Mo at al, because even horrible pitcher, like the Yankees have, can usually trade enough bases for outs to preserve a six run lead for two innings. He certainly didn't need to warm him up when Farnsworth still had a four run lead.

No matter how many jokes we make--and they are funny--Farnsworth and the other dregs have to be trusted in such lo level situations, so that Mo can be used in high leverage situations.

2007-07-29 16:00:14
300.   MARH
Hughes at Scranton today: 6.2ip 3h 0r 0er 3 bb 4k. 1 wild pitch. 91 pitches (one over the limit for the rehab), 57 strikes. 13 groundouts, 3 flyouts.
He was relieved with a runner on 2nd by some guy named Ramirez, who struck out the next batter :).

How's abouts we sees them two in the Bronx come Saturday?

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-07-29 16:07:32
301.   Marcus
300 Just adding to your summary, all 3 walks were of the leadoff variety, but but his GB/FB was 13 to 3. Not too shabby.
2007-07-29 16:41:22
302.   Zack
I'm sure its already been covered, but news is that Joba is scratched from his start tomorrow to start working in the BP..

I have been fearing this for so long and now its coming true: One of the major components of the future of this franchise is being entrusted to Joe Torre's most galling and damaging weakness, the BP. There is no way for Joba to come out of this in better shape unless Torre is mandated from above to use Joba specifically for three inning type stints every six days or so. And even that isn't really the best thing for him. If left alone, Joe will either let Joba rot and keep up his push button managing or throw him out there every other day/every day for an inning at a time and before we know it Joba will be Proctored/Sturtzed/Quantrilled. If Torre couldn't figure out how to use Britton and Edwar, how can we at all fell comfortable with this move? Every Yankee fan should be crossing their fingers and praying to the baseball gods for the future of Joba. Sigh...

2007-07-29 17:04:31
303.   yankz
From the main page:

"Torre said that a major factor in guiding Cano out of his slump over the first half of the season was the help he got from third-base coach Larry Bowa and the experienced players around him, like Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Bobby Abreu and Melky Cabrera."

Yeah, that Melky must've told him about that slow start he got off to in '95...

2007-07-29 18:56:19
304.   yankz
Apparently, the Yanks are the Gagne frontrunners:
2007-07-29 19:08:41
305.   tommyl
Wow, via MLBTraderumors:

Madden Takes On Mike Pagliarulo

Bill Madden of the New York Daily News illustrates an interesting discrepancy regarding some harsh criticism of Brian Cashman. Mike Pagliarulo, former player and co-founder of a scouting company, has a pretty cool website called The BaseLine Report where he dishes scouting knowledge. His company often gathers intelligence on Japanese players and consults for many teams.

Pagliarulo put up this MySpace post a few weeks ago, giving Brian Cashman a D- grade and calling him one of the worst GMs in the game. He compares the Kei Igawa signing to the Mike Hampton contract. Huh? Madden quotes Pagliarulo as writing, "The Yankees chose not to use (Cashman's) Japan consultants, who told him to walk away from Igawa." That's Pagliarulo's way of saying Cashman ignored his sound advice against signing Igawa.

However, that sentence has apparently been removed from the blog post since Madden revealed that Pagliarulo's actual report to Cashman was fairly positive.

Madden called out Pagliarulo, whose response has apparently been to edit the MySpace post in his company's favor.

---end quote---

So, gee maybe we shouldn't trust the rest of that post then, huh? Despicable.

2007-07-29 19:11:12
306.   RIYank
304 Wow.
And Texas doesn't need Gagne's approval for a trade to the Yankees, interesting. But if Gagne wants to close, that would mean the Yanks would have little chance of extending his contract, and we'd be renting him till the end of the season.

"L.A. just called to inquire about Farnsworth, possibly indicating that its talks regarding Royals setup man Octavio Dotel have cooled."

Also indicating that the Dodger front office is delusional.

2007-07-29 19:21:39
307.   yankz
306 I'd take any C-level Dodger position prospect for Farns. And I just remember once, when Gagne-mania was going strong, he was interviewed about being compared to Mo. He was really classy, saying Mo's his hero and all that. Funny that he might be setting up for him now. There's only one Mariano.

305 Yeah, he really looks like an idiot now.

2007-07-29 20:03:18
308.   Mattpat11
I missed the last few innings of this game. understand Farnsworth was wretched?
2007-07-29 20:31:21
309.   Mattpat11
302 To the day I die, I'll never understand how Joe Torre "ruined" Tanyon Sturtze.

That, to me, seems to suggest that Tanyon Sturtze had some kind of skill pre-Joe Torre.

2007-07-29 20:34:22
310.   Marcus
306 The beauty of trading for Gagne would be the ability to use him as the "closer" in those non-save situations that Torre hates using Mo for (i.e., 9th-inning, tie game on the road). He could be Tom Gordon+.

Although Heyman does mention that Gagne has $5M in incentives for finishing games. Don't know if he'd put up a fuss for the rest of the season if he was a setup guy.

With all that said, I'm highly skeptical that he is coming to the Yankees. But if you do trade, say, Kennedy for him, the Yanks could get the two (? is that right) draft picks and potentially find a replacement prospect (or two).

2007-07-29 20:41:40
311.   Marcus
309 You're absolutely right that Sturtze wasn't great shakes before coming to the Yankees. One might call even him "bad".

But what I think people mean is that Torre arguably rode his arm into the ground by using him so much, which lead him to have a serious shoulder injury that has kept him out all this season. Now, that is independent of whether Torre should have rode his arm into the ground, given Sturtze's performance. And it also ignores the fact the Sturtze didn't inform Torre or the coaches of the pain he was pitching through.

2007-07-29 20:54:28
312.   Mattpat11
311 I hold Torre responsible for actually using the man repeatedly despite a lack of skill.

I'm also not entirely sure that 64 games or 78 IP is "running a relief pitcher into the ground" but that's really a matter of opinion.

My issue is when people lump him in with someone like Paul Quantrill. To be, that suggests that people think Joe Torre took a quality arm and ran him into the ground by pitching him more than usual. I don't think he did. I don't think Sturtze was good to begin with or his workload was completely unreasonable.

2007-07-29 21:12:13
313.   yankz
It's insane how much influence Torre has over the roster. Edwar got sent down because he sucked for one game, and it's quite plausible that he sucked because Torre refused to play him. Because of this refusal, the organization, out of sheer desperation, has to mess with a legit MiL starter. Haven't they realize that unless your name is Mariano, when you pitch for Torre, chances are you get Edward or Quantrilled? Do they really feel good about putting Joba in his hands?

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