"fatigued groin" - sigh, I remember those days. The good old days .....

Geez - please let us win about 11 out of the next 13 games of so !

um ,er I meant 11 out of the next 13 OR so.....

Boy I hope we see the DeSalvo who stymied the Mariners tonight, the 'bad' Jon Garland, and the 'alive' Yankees offense. I'd like to see a nice long winning streak too 1, but I'll settle for one win at a time.

1 Thank the busy beavers in the pharmaceutical industry for Viagra and Cialis... not that I'm implying a need...

4 This thread is fast becoming TMI.

0 Cliff, your haircut in that photo reminded me of Neo in the Matrix. (I mean that in the nicest way possible; sometimes discussing the Matrix is like discussing religion. ;) )

BTW, if Moose is really cooked, does this mean the Yanks are also cooked?

4 Hey, you've already got that cognative dissonnance thing going... isn't that enough?
;-)

0 Nice interview, Cliff.

If the Yanks don't turn this thing around, do you think that we could unload (uh, I mean trade) Moose to a contender for the stretch run? Maybe a team in the NL would like him since he would be somewhat unfamiliar to the rest of the league.

Hey, what's with no © rilkefan after those underline-zeros?

RIP, Cletus Boyer. I just heard he passed away. Some say he was the best-fielding third basemen ever.

I don't suppose anyone cares to read my opinion about what Sheff said. I had this conversation early on with standuptriple and either Bob Timmermann or Scott Long about the decreasing number of African Americans in MLB. A big part of it stems from available resources (or lack thereof), and some of it from interest from those with resources to develop a particular sector. What Sheff says, though off-target, does speak towards what those whom I know in the African American community consider are perceived issues of race within professional sports; baseball in particular. Baseball in many Latin countries is a year-round way of life; something that given the climate and available space, not to mention the interest and encouragement of whole communities or populations, is advantageous over a person or people who lack the resources and encouragement (i.e. no interest in organizing, training and/or recruiting) to get involved in Little League or try out for scholastic sports. This is not to take anything away from Latinos in baseball, whom historically were allied with African Americans in terms of opportunities to play in the Major Leagues. All things being equal, African Americans are no different in baseball than Latinos or Whites when it comes to natural abilities; it comes down to individual determination and skills. That said, African Americans do more or less perceive themselves as passed over in a society that seemingly deems their greatest value in athleticism, given the resources and encouragement to do so, is in basketball and football (for now). I broke this down in my previous comment; I'll see if I can find it if anyone's really interested.

5 TMI? What is that?

11 Too Much Information

12 Ya got the wrong Will, I know nothing >;)

Ah man, just saw that Thurs's matchup is Moose vs Contreras, two of the pitchers who've annoyed me the most in a Yankee uniform.

Bought tickets for that game before the season even started, and was hoping for some luck in the pitching matchup.

10 I tried to find it, but I guess it's gone. Oh well, it was probably too long for anyone's interest...

Another bs call hits the yanks...oh well, i guess Arod struk out anyways

I don't know what's worse, that another terrible call goes against the Yankees, or that nobody in a New York uniform is arguing it.

Jeebus H. Christopher! A-Rod was on the freaking line, and yet the guy who shoved Phelps the other day was clearly out of the box and was called safe.

Why do umpires have their heads up their asses when the Yankees play?

But what can you say if the Yanks don't ever bother to argue?

Yeah, definitely trade for Dye.

/sarcasm.

Man, Pierzinski pissess me off just by looking at him

Yo.

I missed the controversial play: summary anyone?

22 Yeah, but wouldn't it be cool if we had him? Joe could ask Mattingly to pencil in Pierzynski and Mientkiewicz, then he'd stand back and watch.

Nice AB Cano!

Uh.
Am I Chyll Will for the day?

Dang, now that Josh has assured playing time he's starting to get complacent.

1 Jeez.... I can't remember....
5 Living in NH, I've tasted cooked Moose. Not good...
9 Saw him (on TV) alongs with Brooks. The 2 best, I think.
10 Interesting. I don't think any non-Black can understand what being Black in White America is like. That being said, there is som much money is Baseball, and it's so competetive, I think Sheffs comments were off the mark. However, it is easier to deal with someone (of any color or ethnicity) who is enthusiastic and appreciative, as opposed to loaded with attitude. Bonds and Sheff have valid points about Blacks in MLB, but the majority of Black players have managed to put their best foot forward.

My my my... ESPN televising 2 games in a row of the terrible, mean Yankees. Wonder why.

Momentum, thy name is DeSalvo.

Watched Bull Durham the other night -- I'm reminded of the scene where Crash tells Meat that he's going to get lit up the first few times in the show.

It would be great to get a DP now..

This is going poorly.

Bad News Bears.

Ugh, u-g-l-y

2007 Yankees strike again

Gawd. These guys need to relax and take their time with these throws.

Good God Phelps.. I miss Minky

I ALMOST miss Scrabble. I definitely miss Clemens.

Now you can cue up Pete Abe and his "Doug out" wins the team a game a week with his defense, argument

Phelps is painful. DeSalvo lousy, but Phelps is painful.

phelps' throw was horrendous ... jesus

Well, DeSalvo should be out of this inning tied at 1, I wouldn't call that lousy per se...

Phelps is painful, but I think he'll get better with a bit more work...

Double A pitchers and single A fielders...not a good mix.

Why the hell is Joe pulling Desavlo here????

36 Thats taking it a little far.

I mean, hes been giving up a lot of GB hits, plus two errors (well, A-rods was an error even if it didnt go down as one due to the stupid DP rule).

Going to the bullpen already.. its gonna be a long night.

torre is making a pitching change NOW? these runs aren't even desalvo's fault

44 He doesn't want to discourage him.

Joe was clearly fully expecting DeSalvo to fail, thus the uber short leash. which makes me wonder why even bother starting him. Make the BP mix together a few innings each instead, since they basically have to do that anyway

44 Yeah, I lost it for a second..

It's a good thing the team is getting all of this out of their system in spring training, right?

Right?

Right??

So Villone gets the DP that DeSlavo shoulda gotten twice, thus proving his belly full of guts in Joe's mind...

Remember, with every Yankee pitching change, Chevrolet makes a $1000 donation to the Joe Torre Safe at Home foundation.

At least that's the only explanation for why the Yankees are averaging something like 5.5 pitchers per game.

49 They started him because there were no other options.

52 I'd almost rather it be this way. If DeSalvo gained Joe's confidence, it would take another four shitty games to lose it again.

54 But there are other options. Make the BP put a start together and then call up another reliever tomorrow for a day or two. Its never done, but if 5 guys pitch two innings, its really not that bad on their arms. Hell, EDSP could go 5 easy.

My point being that obviously Joe has no confidence in Desalvo and pulling him this early is just stupid and still burns the BP...

Your patience with yung players is really amazing, and your ability to "know" whether or not they belong so quickly too, and proclaim it to the world. I wonder why you aren't a talent scout! If Shelly Duncan comes up and doesn't get a hit in 4 games and ks a bunch of times, hes gone too, right?

10 I believe that there's a perception that there are greater obstacles in the minor leagues. Black players feel it's harder to get the foot in the door at the lower levels if they were not high draft picks. Given two equally talented players many white coaches will employ the good ol' boy network, choosing one of their own. Now, this is based on anecdotal evidence supplied to me by a cousin who was drafted. I have no first-hand knowledge of this.

As for the equipment argument, I'm starting to believe it doesn't hold water. In the early/mid 70's in NY lots of black kids played stickball and aspired to be ballplayers. A broomstick and pink ball sufficed on a day to day basis. Granted those same kids may have had more limited access to organized games, of that I'm not sure, but, there was definitely greater interest and enthusiasm for the sport. Therefore there was a greater pool of interested African-American talent to choose from when scholastic teams formed. And besides, growing up, not all kids had bats and gloves. Neighborhood kids brought what they had to that afternoon's play, sharing resources.

49 Well, you beat me to it. He gave up one solid hit, and if Phelps makes the throw he is still out there. Why bother starting him just to pull him after two innings? Also, why only play with a 24 man roster?

55 I should preface that by saying that I don't think DeSalvo, as of right now, is really ready. Hes still working himself back from an awful year last season, and really could have benefited from a whole season in AAA building back up his confidence and control. So be it, hopefully he hasn't been Henned/Wrighted ( I would like to point out that Wright has absolutely stunk up the joint since being abused in the majors, thus helping to show it was a terrible and costly move)...

Oh damn, theres the first "he gone" of the night...

I'm trying to distract myself with Gameday, and the location on those pitches (A-Rod's) was incredible. Garland caught the outside edge twice and the inside edge on the K pitch.

54 No other options? If he is so untrusworthy that he gets pulled after a few ground balls and an error, then ANYONE could have been called up instead. Or, just start the game with the BP ratheer than call up a starter in whom there is no trust at all. This usage just makes no sense.

Nice work Cliff. That Tiffany Simons is pretty easy on the eyes.

Also, what the hell was that giant green thing in a White Sox uniform when they came back from break?

26 Yeah, you can have it tonight; I'm working late again :' ( but don't let it go to your head...)

27 Absolutely. That's not the gist, though. My point, if not other's, is why is there such a drop in participation from over the years that has alarmed past and present African American players? I doubt the numbers say that the level of interest among African Americans correlates to it, but that's for another time and place. RI Yank will explain, since he's Chyll Will for the night (or feel free to continue to ignore as usual >;)

55 If 27 year old career minor leaguer Shelley Duncan doesn't start hitting, yes, I will suspect that the reason is he sucks. I think that's fair.

And yes, you're right. I don't have patience for "kids" in their late 20s and early 30s. I don't consider that a character flaw.

pastadivingjeter

62 Oh, uh.
Ahem.
Increased interest in cricket among African Americans of West Indian descent. All the best batsmen are deserting baseball for cricket.

62 ...or not. 52 I wish I had the time right now. RI, you're on call...

This evening the White Sox are hitting .429.

Come on, Villone.

Come on, Villone.

Nice. He got out of it. Let's go, offense.

67 It shows how good our pitching is..

is 26 "late 20s?" I, personally, would say that it mid-20s, which is PRE-PRIME. But hey, if you don't agree, I am sure there are plenty of teams that will take your 26 and 27 year olds who don't dominate after a few games. There is such thing as having to make adjustments to moving up a level of competition, which, unless you are gifted with the "stuff" of Doc Gooden or the like, often can take a bit. Hell, it took Paul O'Neill until he was 30 to hit above .275, so I guess he should have been relegated to the minors long before then...

Villone trims the avg. to a meager .400.

Sure, Simone, just cause you rhyme.

I bet you also loved Shawn Chacon.

Hey look, their RF dives!

75 and Figgins, Chone.

77 Uh. (How do I break it to him?)

I always liked Obi-Shawn. He's doing pretty well this season. He was relegated to the pen at first, but did so well there that they made him a starter. His last start:

7 IP, 3 H, 0 ER, 1 BB, 10 K.

But he didn't get the win because Salomon Torres blew the save. (Torres was sent down to the minors the next day.)

Sigh. Cue the Miguel Cairo theme music.

I bet this is not how Josh Phelps imagined this day going.

Hey, in 1995 the Yankees had a 25 year old career minor leaguer come up and go 1 for 14 wit six strikeouts in a late-season callup. I guess the Yankees should have abandoned Jorge Posada right there, right Mattpat11?

78 (need help?)

Man, rough night for Josh Phelps! Think he'll get the Andy Phillips treatment after this?

I think we are looking at the waining days of Josh Phelps in pinstripes. The double plays are one thing, but his defensive ineptitude is shocking. At best, Phelps is a DH/PH. The Yankees really can't throw him out there every day at 1B.

83 78 Yeah yeah, it's pronounced Shawn. just like Chacon. How about:

David Cone
Juan Rincon
Sydney Ponson
Ponce de Leon?

83 Oh, thank god.

84 What's the Andy Phillips treatment? Benched, when Andy's called up tomorrow? ;-)

86 Ponson, yeah. What do you say, Simone?

Just for a little light-hearted pick-me-up, here's a quickie posting from firejoemorgan, under the heading "It gives me no pleasure to report this":
---------------------
Y'know what Alex Chokeface Chokeaholic Choke-Rod Rodriguez' OPS is with runners in scoring position and two outs?

1.611

That's a 27 at bat sample, so you know it's meaningful.

Well, that sucked.

86,87 mehmattski - Pierzynski? (keep it up, RI, you're doing okay...>;)

Is there still rain in the forecast?

88 Well, yes, but I was thinking specifically of what happened to Phillips after the Kazmir game. The point at which Torre just decides you can't hack it and banishes you to the bench forever, never to be a warrior. Sort of like when Mattpatt decides you can only play in AAA :)

Ugh...this is totally going to be one of those forgetful games. Once again, this team defies any notion of momentum

89 Say about what? I'm lost.

95 Oh, look back at 74, 75.

Is there a baseball game going on somewhere?

94 yep--and worse, you get banished on the bench BUT never play, so effectively the team plays a man short. It would be better if he were banished to AAA and a player were called up who might play. On the bright side, less Phelps might open the door for more Cairo.

Torre should leave Villone there for a while.. this game is lost anyway, might as well save someone for tomorrow.

Who is this Britton fellow coming in?

94 As John Sterling would say, momentum is tomorrow's starting pitcher. Matt DeSalvo is anti-momentum. The Yankees were depending on Clemens, so you can't blame them for having to trot DeSalvo out there once again. The fact of the matter is DeSalvo really isn't a prospect and as long as the Yankees are relying on him every fifth day, they will continue to struggle. The Yankees DESPERATELY need a healthy Clemens

98 Don't think he's listening... Looks like a night where the pen's going to be burned

72"is 26 "late 20s?"

Yes it is. And the fact that he's still a minor leaguer at 26 going on 27 suggests he's not very good. His ability to walk anyone that moves is further indication of that.

"I am sure there are plenty of teams that will take your 26 and 27 year olds who don't dominate after a few games."

If they have some kind of potential. When you're dealing with men that were never prospects and are stuck in the minors forever, the world is not knocking the door down to get him. Hell, if anyone wanted him do you think he'd still be here? Would Cashman play hard ball to keep the great Matt DeSalvo, a guy he wouldn't promote until now?

97 Wait, are you actually saying that more Cairo is a good thing?

90 The funny thing is that the NY papers were relatively muted on what A-Rod did yesterday. By far the nicest thing written about him (an actual positive column dedicated to him) was in the Boston Globe of all places:

http://tinyurl.com/2kffnn

"It's also not easy to hear what he hears every time he plays here. I don't care what he said, when the Boston fans were chanting "A-Rod!" and he homers and you can hear a pin drop at Fenway, that's a special player doing something special for his team."

Nice catch, Matsui-san.

I could have sworn that during the pre-game it was mentioned that these Scx had lost 6 in a row, most of their team was hitting under 250, not to mention 1 for their last 17 with runners in scoring postition. I must have be dreaming. A long winning streak just does not seem in the midst with all the greenhorns pitching 2x a week. Hopefully we can come back and Clippard can be serviceable tomorrow.

99 (in diguise) I believe they call themselves "Brittish"...

Gulp.

94 That was weird. I got the feeling Cashman liked Andy a lot more than Joe did. Cashman kept Andy on the roster, and we kept forgetting he was still there, because Joe never used him.

I still think Andy could learn to hit big league pitching. His L/R splits were reversed last year, and that wasn't typical for him. I think the scouting reports said for lefties to pitch him up and away, and it worked. If he learns to hit those pitches, he'd be okay.

107 Yes, in diguise they do. But here in America, they're called Britons.

DeSalvo WAS a prospect until last year. in fact, he was the player considered the most likely to be called up last year until, well, he stunk. Maybe you should do some more research on prospects and their histories before you arbitrarily declare them useless to you.

Furthermore, as I already said, 26 is still before a player's peak years, so to say that they have no potential is just shortsighted and foolish. Just b/c no one claims a player in waivers doesn't mean they can't contribute. Bronson Arroyo made it all the way to the Sox in the rule 5 draft, and now look.

And, finally, 26 isn't late 20s, its mid 20s. Just like an 86 is simply a B, not a B+ :)

103 I was trying to employ sarcasm.

109 Nope, can't happen. Hes too old and has shown nothing, in no way can he contribute, he should just give up, its foolish to even try. Duh :)

94 And you will note that Joe Torre's evaluation of 28 year old Andy Phillips was spot on.

112 gotcha. Sorry, just wanted to make sure I didn't need to make an intervention...

96 I get it now. LOL.

We have one of the all-time great fielding 1st basemen in Donnie Baseball. I can't believe that Phelps is so bad. Is this guy working on his fielding? If he wants to play at the MLB level he's got to cut this shit out.

Hawk just declared that melky will have no problem hitting well over 300 with 30 HRs. Wow...

112 I tried that once, but he wanted to stay on welfare instead (ducking really quick...)

106 And didn't you just figure that as soon as Cliff mentioned that Thome has "yet to find his stroke", that he would promptly do so tonight? Just too predictable, at least with the 2007 Yankees.

113 Yeah, you're probably right. Why do they even bother drafting college boys like Andy? They're 22, and still not playing pro baseball. They'll never make it.

Yup, on que, Pete Abe begins his nightly Phelps bashing

111 I have a hard time calling DeSalvo a prospect after looking at his career AA and AAA numbers. Goldman has done a lot of good work on him and his general conclusion is that he isn't considered to have a major league future as a productive starter.

Also, while 26 is pre-peak for most players, it is a rather old age to break into the majors. How many successful pitchers have started their careers so late?

122 Can you blame him though? Phelps has proven to be below Giambi on the defense scale. That doesn't justify his 108 OPS+ bat.

109 And if anyone thought that, at 30 years Phillips could learn to hit that pitch or a breaking ball, do you really think we'd have Johnny Damon learning first base?

121 Yeah, I mean that Mariano guy didn't pitch until he was 26, I sure wish we had gotten rid of him and his non-prospect ass...

DeSalvo is getting abum rap. If he were on a 'lesser' team, he would get his innings in and get a little OJT. If Phelps makes that play, it may still be a game. Torre is fast with the hook, byt I don't think he's getting much sleep.

Jeter has a leg or foot injury.

117 IIRC, that was the knock on Phelps from the beginning. Good stick, terrible glove.

I dunno, I want to give the guy a chance. OTOH, this team needs defense more than offense.

Jeter is limping. Baseball gods where have thou gone?

121 Yeah--it's like that career minor leaguer, at age 27 hit only .261/.298/.398 in part time work and didn't even start full time until age 29. What was his name? Oh yeah, Matt Stairs (career 15 seasons, .266/.359/.486). I can't believe that fool Beane looked at his minor league track record and actually thought he could hit MLB pitching if only given a legit chance.

124 Phelps is bad, but he'll get better. He hasn't played very much in the field at all this year...

128 "OTOH, this team needs defense more than offense."

You don't really mean this, do you?

126 Are you really comparing Mariano to DeSalvo? I'm pretty sure that Mariano had better numbers, rated better on a scouts scale and also had serious arm surgery. Also, the starter/reliever issue can't be ignored.

Well, Britton is a bright spot.
Not a great strike/pitch ratio so far, but he sure delivers in a hurry and he's dropped the Sox' batting average by about two million points.

133 Not in terms of talent now, but there was a time where Mariano was a mediocre starting prospect who topped out at 88-90 on the gun, with his best pitch a changeup. At some point, while pitching in the minors he just suddenly starting throwing 98. He was almost traded several times.

Man, this Britton guy sucks. Nowhere near the grit of Vizcaino, I mean he doesn't even make innings interesting, what with just getting people out. Boo.

133 mariano WAS a starter. But no, I'm not comparing them, I'm just saying. besides, have you looked at Desalvo's minor league #s? Other than a brief cal up to Trenton at the end of the season and his bad year last year, his #s are freaking great...

133 Mariano came up as a starter.

I'm not sure anyone thinks DeSalvo will be a star. Rather, the complaint is more that the Yankees as an organization are not patient with young (or "young") players who do not come up and immediately hit .400 or throw no hitters. De Salvo could be an asset if used properly and given a chance--probably out of the BP or as a #5 or spot starter. But if he is given a start, give him a chance to pitch. There was no reason to yank him after two ground balls through the infield and an error in the second inning, leading to another five pitcher game, leading to another burned BP for the next day, etc.

133 Also, I don't think the point 126 was making was that DeSalvo was Mo, but there is a point here. How do we ever know, if we call up guys watch them flounder for all of three games and then jettison them. I mean, that Kazmir game basically ruined Phillips. Who knows if the organization had been a bit more patient with him.

Put another way, what if Jeter didn't hit that homer and make that over the shoulder grab right away? Would he still be in the minors? traded away?

126And if Matt DeSalvo turns into Mariano Rivera (a year later, and minus Tommy John surgery) I will apologize.

I somehow doubt that will happen.

131 Will he get better? The thing I've noticed since opening day is his throwing is horrible. I never thought I'd see a 1B with a worse arm than Giambi, but Phelps is that guy. Again, Phelps M.O. has always been that he is a poor defender. It seems to me as if everyone looks at Phelps as a long-time 1B, but the man has only played 55 games there. There is no track record to suggest that what we've seen is what we are going to get.

Again, Phelps has a career OPS+ of 108. That isn't very good for a good defensive 1B. It's intolerable for a fielder as poor as Phelps.

Umm, that wasn't good.

A-Rod re-enacting a scene from Major League...

c'mon y'all, this isn't a real debate--there are guys who are AAAA players and there are guys who are just plain mlb hitters but not toolsy denim salesmen and so get ignored. Which is the case re. any given player? that's a little tougher......

Phelps to me looks like half a DH platoon. whoever suggested that Damon should play left and Matsui move to first is obviously right; there's no good reason to think one outfielder will be a better fielder at first than another outfielder--but we know which one of these guys is a better outfielder, and it ain't Hideki.....

138 We were very patient with Phillips in 2006. He was horrid.

132 Yup, I mean it. The bats may be slumping, but they'll get past that. We've got great hitters. They just aren't hitting at the moment.

140 He is horrible, but right now he is the best 1B option on teh team; and he would still be so even if Minky weren't broken. His bat (albeit only 108 OPS+) makes up for his defense RELATIVE to Minky's total lack of production. Plus, Giambi can't even walk on the field with a glove without hurting himself.

No matter how you slice it, the 1B are pretty stinky this year. I would be willing to call up S. Duncan and/or Andy P. and try a 1B/DH platoon between the two or three of them.

oh, and re DeSalvo, everybody's right: I mean, he's clearly not ready to face mlb batters right now: they don't swing at the borderline offerings he used to generate impressive minor league K totals, with the result that he Ks nobody, and his walk totals are worse.....on the other hand, Joe pulled him way too soon. He's gonna end up pitching Proctor today and then wondering why tomorrow's tired Proctor gives up a key hit. God, it's frustrating....

bright side? maybe Britton's worked his way up in the pecking order some....

126133 You posed the question. He responded with an example. Now, you penalize him for answering your question. Logical.

How can anyone debate with you when his responses to you must be approved by you?

Ummmm.
Are you guys watching Britton??
He isn't throwing enough strikes, but he seems to be good at getting Chicagoans out. Or maybe it's getting Sox out, in which case we could start him in Fenway.

135 He didn't suddenly start throwing 98mph...he did that after having TJ surgery.

136 DeSalvo has always been much older than the level he was playing at. It's hard for me to put much stock in a 22-23 year old dominating A-ball. Before this season, his AA/AAA stats are actually only decent to very bad (ERAs of 6.59, 3.02, 5.77 and 7.68).

137 That kinds of lends support to the notion that not many successful starters begin their careers so late.

138 I think different players get different leashes. All I am saying is I don't think DeSalvo rates as a top prospect on a stats or scouting scale, so I am not willing to give him a long rope. Allowing Clippard to learn on the job is one thing, but DeSalvo is another.

Hmm, I wonder if this Britton fellow would have been useful in the games where Vizcaino was brought in instead with a lead...

Wow, who's this guy on the mound for the Yankees the last few innings? He's actually getting outs efficiently. Wish we had a starter like him.

145 How many great batters do we really have? Posada, Jeter, A-Rod, maybe Matsui. Abreu if he comes out it. Cano if he hits .330. After that, there are a lot of holes in the line up and on the bench, especially with Damon aging 100 years before our eyes. This offense is simply not the 900-1000 run juggernaut everyone thought it was. I think this team desperately needs offense.

Come home, turn on computer, check score on gameday.

Yanks down 5-1, Torre pulls DeSalvo after 1.1IP for Villone.

Log into Banter, post this, cry like a little girl, go to bed, visions of flames burning up the Green Monster greet me as I fall asleep.

G'night.

151 I know, it's a shame we didn't acquire him until 40 minutes ago. But fortunately, now that we have him he can take up some space in the bullpen until August, when we can send him to New Jersey or someplace very much like New Jersey.

Not to make excuses but...

emotional series against the Sox, late night flight after Sunday night game, not ready for prime time starter.

What did you expect?

146 Well...he is the only 1B option on the team, so you are correct. Cashman needs to address that problem ASAP.

148 I'll address you incessant sniping one last time...back and forth is called debate...no one is being penalized for sharing opinions and no one's opinions require approval. I am not interested in having ANY dialogue with you, so will simply ignore your posts going forward. I hope you'll do the same with mine.

153 I think Abreu and Cano will come around. And Melky, too, maybe, now that he's got regular playing time.

But if you really want another bat, I think the Cincinnati Reds would deal Scott Hatteberg for relief pitching.

156 The team lost the right to have these games a month ago.

158 I agree about all three (meaning, Abreu and Cano, and maybe Melky). But I'd take Hatteberg anyway. Well, I ought to wait a day after this horrendous Phelps performance to gain a little perspective.

I can't kill the offense for this effort...when you watch a pitcher not be able to throw strikes and then the defense kick the ball around, it takes a lot out of you. I can't help but think that the Yankees took the field thinking they were at a disadvantage. It can't be easy to hit when under those circumstances.

156 actually, I'd throw out the emotion and the late night stuff and underline "not ready for prime time starter".

Yes, I'm trying to be optimistic, but I hate seeing the names we've been throwing out there every few days, and I've hated it since April.

160 Hatteberg and Dmitri Young strike me as two superior options who shouldn't be that expensive to acquire.

157 That's not even with getting into people deciding that the reason Andy Phillips can't crack the majors at 30 is his decision to go to college.

I'd like to see Britton come out of this game soon. Why waste what appears to be a very effective arm?

Sadly, Britton's performance makes you realyl wonder why it took this long for him to make an appearance.

156 Good point. The Yankees do seem to suffer an emotional deflation after the intensity of the Red Sox series. It is only the first game of this series so no need to panic.

Fireworks after a home run? Okay.

The spell is broken.
Still, Britton seems to have some potential, huh?

165 Good call. On both points.

164 Andy Phillips didn't crack teh majors in large part because 1] he had a terrible injury at age 26 (after he was Yankees minor league player of the year) and 2] because he was buried in the minors when the team decided to sign players like Miguel Cairo and Tony Womack in front of him. Again, no one believes that Phillips would ever be a star, but his minor league numbers suggest that he could be an asset at the ML level if used properly. Unfortunately for him, he was buried during his athletic peak seasons and that ship has probably sailed. Even so, I would rather he hold down the bench than Cairo.

165 I think this was the right option. Low pressure, he's doing well. I mean, he was. And forty pitches on his arm is much less total wear than tossing three guys out there for an inning each.
Well, you said take him out soon, so I guess I'm agreeing. But leaving him in this long was the right move.

170 Perhaps the team "buried" him because they suspected he would be unable to hit major league pitching?

Which, they were in fact, spot on with?

Actually DeSalvo DID throw strikes, perhaps they were hittable strikes, but strikes nonetheless. And, once again, its their own fault, not really DeSalvo's, that they are down...

Now back to the "AAAA" debate. The whole concept of a AAAA player to me rings hollow. As has been shown time and time again, if given the proper tiem to adjust, AAA #s correlate very well to the majors. To me, a AAAA player is someone not given the chance to prove that. In the end, thats fine, its baseball, and if there is someone better than you, than fine. But when there isn't, as has often been the case for the Yanks, then its not okay. And William, are you not impressed with Kennedy and Chamberlain then, be/c by your reasoning, they are too old and therefore shouldn't be counted as prospects.

I'm not saying DeSalvo is Phil Hughes, because, well, he isn't. However, given the chance that Vizcaino, Villone, and our other BP scrubs, not to mention the plethora of Bp scrubs around the league, yeah, I would place money on him being at least league average, which, for the BP or a #4-5, is darn good. But, of course, William and Matt don't understand the concept of adjustment...

171 Exactly...I have no problem with anything Torre has done in this game. I actually like his removal of DeSalvo, selection of Villone early and use of Britton when the game still had some life.

172 Actually, if you actually read 170 you would see that that is in fact YOUR opinion. He was buried mostly because Giambi was clogging up 1B and Joe dislikes anyone not a veteran...If it weren't for his injury, he probably would have been called up that year.

173 I think Andy could make that adjustment, given the chance. He only had, what, a month? Cano and Cabrera both had horrible slumps when they first came up, as the opposing teams scouted them and started to adjust to them. They sucked for a month or so, then they adjusted in turn.

No, I don't expect him to be Jason Giambi. But he could probably be a decent backup infielder.

163 Wait wait wait wait wait. You mean the Scott Hatteberg who didn't get his shot until he was 27 going on 28??? I though twe all decided that those types of players have no use in the major leagues and are realyl just AAAA players???? WHAAAAA??? Whose career OPS+ is lower than Phelps'????? I don't get it!

172 I'm not buying it. Like 173 says, adjusted AAA numbers correlate very well with MLB success, especially for batters. This is one of the cornerstones of Moneyball--that a GM like Beane is more willing to give replacement level players like Andy Phillips a real chance at the ML level, figuring that he will probably outperform his veteran Womackian counterpart for less money. The Yankees historically, at least for the last two or thre decades, have been very impatient with young players and tend to prefer 'proven veterans' over untested young players. I find it far more plausible that Phillips stayed in the minors because of an organizational philosophy (or blind spot).

175 Andy Phillips major league line.

.228/.261/.391/.657

OPS+ of 71 (Worse than Miguel Cairo)

16 BB. 70 K.

But its only my opinion that he cannot hit.

173 According to Yahoo...he threw 23 strikes and 21 balls, which is a pretty poor ratio, especially against a free swinging team like Chicago.

Chamberlain is younger than DeSalvo was at A, but if both he and Kennedy are still 24/25 and post similar numbers in AA/AAA as DeSalvo, I would not be impressed. Also, and this is an assumption, but I think both of those names outshine DeSalvo on the scouts scale.

But, of course, William and Matt don't understand the concept of adjustment...

Hmm...that seems to me as if you are passing judgment on other's opinions? All kidding aside, I fully understand the concept of adjustment. I just don't think 26 year old rookie pitchers with DeSalvo's stuff merit a chance to "adjust" on a team like the Yankees. The reward (a long men or possible 5th starter) doesn't justify the risk (giving away games in a season on the brink).

176

Hell. We already traded Randy Johnson for the bench player of the future. Do we really need to give Phillips another several hundred AB so he can reach those lofty standards?

On a positive note, Matsui-san has been playing some good left field of late.

180 I agree with your last point. I was the one who started all of this off saying that there WERE better options, like making the BP pitch the whole game, which they basically have anyways. DeSalvo needs a season, or most of a season, to gain his control and confidence back. Then let him audition next year in ST.

But that point got pushed aside in the larger argument that a 26 year old rookie can, in fact, go on to have quite a good career...

180 Thats my big point. Do we really need to sacrifice the team so we can let the long man of the future or the bench player of the future settle into a groove?

Hello! Hello! Anyone actually watching the game here? If you are, please post. Thanks.

177 Come on now...weren't we discussing pitchers? I can't cite studies off the top of my head, but I think there are several that have shown that hitters have a better chance to develop later.

As for the comp to Phelps, Hatteberg's sample size is much larger. Also, he is a pretty solid defense player. What's more, he has a higher OBP, which accentuates his value. On the whole, he is a better player than Phelps.

179 Yes, in 294 ABs spread over three seasons. Hardly a significant sample size. He was never given a legitimate chance with the Yankees to start for a whole season, or even a half of a season. He was never, in my opinion, given a legitimate chance to adjust to the ML level. A comparison with Matt Stairs career is really interesting.

Wow, what a terrible terrible, boring game tonight, eh?

183 I would never be so foolish to say he CAN'T. I just don't think there are many examples, especially not ones that fit DeSalvo's profile.

185 Nice play off the wall by WSox CF.

The bats do seem to be coming alive though they haven't been able to do much against Garland tonight.

188 AHA! You are watching!

However, Matsui has prevented the ignominy of a Garland CG.

187250 of which occurred last year. 225 of which occurred between April and July before his hideous play necessitated a move.

I hope Phelps doesn't make the last out of the game...he already has enough to beat himself up over.

186 We were talking about hitters and pitchers-phelps and phillips among them.

I was just making the point that Hatteberg didn't come up until late, had a whole bunch of crappy seasons with the stick, and has generalyl put up #s in line with Phelps, who is still in his peak years and thus capable of more. I agree, his defense sucks, but its not liek Minky's "great' D was winning us any games.

hell, I don't even really know what my point was anymore, mostly just that the whole AAAA player argument is bogus on those grounds

Cano looks great Taking pitches.

Wow.
Another bright spot: Robbie drew two walks today! (And two hits, of course.)

Boy, Garland is the anti-Trachsel, huh? Or else the Yanks are still tired from Boston and just want to get some rest.

You know, the White Sox have been having worse bullpen problems than the Yanks. This game isn't over yet . . .

192 I've been trying not to. I keep checking back in every so often, only to flip right away again. And then all of a sudden it was the 9th and garland was still in and the game still sucked...

187 Agreed.

He deserved a shot. He couldn't have been worse than Womack, that's for sure. Womack was the worst player in MLB in 2005.

196 Well...my arguments were centered around the development of pitchers, so I apologize for any misconstrued implications.

Ahhhhhhh.
Well, a little late for a rally, but this is good to see anyway. Good on ya, Josh!

Come on Ozzie...why waste your closer in a 6-2 game!!

Good for Phelps...

Man, this game has seen some serious fatties on the mound, eh?

202 Wooho, I win! :) No, seriously, no worries. All the back and forth kept me from having to watch the game, which is a good thing..

Nothing wrong with Phelps' bat.

C'mon, Melky! The fat lady ain't sung yet.

208 That's 'cause she's on the mound...

207 A VERY GOOD THING.

204 Actually, this is a save situation!

{209} ROFL!

211 I know...was trying to challenge Ozzie's manhood and trick him into blowing a game.

194 Nice try--he only started 49 games. Many of his ABs came off the bench after Torre buried him. Look, we are never going to agree on this. Maybe you're right and 50 games is enought to evaluate a player; I tend to think you need to look at more.

In any case, tonight's game has been pretty stinky.

They're still alive.

213 Yeah I figured that out after I hit the send.

why is cairo in the game???

JD's pretty spry for a guy with bum legs.

Tying run at the plate! Wow.

Rough night for Jeter.

Oh well, good night and good luck.

Great seeing that Yankee fans are still coming out to support the team when they play on the road. Through thick and thin, sick and sin.

217 Pinch runner for Phelps.

Well, that was kind of an unhappy ending. Jeter 0 for 5 tonight.

Oh well, lets hope everyone else loses too and we can pick it up tomorrow!

This game doesn't kill me...going in I expected little from DeSalvo, so that cushions the blow. The performance of Britton was a positive. The continued resurgence of Abreu and Cano is also a good omen (its like trading two Womacks for two All Stars). I have confidence in Clippard tomorrow and think Wang and Mussina match up well against the free swinging Sox. If Roger can join the team over the weekend, things wont be so bad.

Having said that, it does suck that it's June and only now can you see some light at the end of the tunnel.

Well DJ seems to be awfully, awfully cold right now.

Shoot. Good run at it though. I was envisioning a squib single, Abreu works a walk and then Hobbs comes up with the bases loaded.

Things didn't end up looking so bad as they seemed earlier. Bad result, though. Darn. If only.

See youse.

222 I know he was a pinch runner. But why pinch run for phelps? He is the better hitter. If the game goes into extra innings, then is cairo a better defensive firstbaseman? If not, why take a hit on offense to score a 4th run? Assuming Phelps is that slow, then he can stay on 3rd instead of scoring and the inning is still alive.

It is just Torre overmanaging.

227 I don't get that either...but it's one of those moves you hope comes back to bite you (because it means you tied the game).

On Andy Phillips:-

It is my belief, based on his track record, that if the Yanks did not have an organizational blind spot when it comes to the farm system's products, AND but for his injury, that Andy Phillips could have been called up sooner, and, had he been given an actual chance to play for an entire season, been a slightly better than average major league player. Not a superstar, but a guy who could hit .275/.350/.460 and play good defense at 1B, 2B, and 3B, which is quite valuable.

Shoot, the Yanks would - will - give up something of value to have such a guy right now.

The problems were that
(1) Phillips did get hurt, and did miss a ton of time
(2) Joe Torre won't play rookies of any age unless he's forced to (see Cano, Robbie) or unless the kid is heralded as a superstar in advance (see Jeter, Derek and Hughes, Phillip)
(3) the Yankees organization did, and as long as (2) is true, still does, have a huge blind spot when it comes to products of the farm system

This is old news. You want the best example? Jorge Posada, who should have been the primary starting catcher on Opening Day, 1997. But wasn't. Because "Belly Full of Guts" Girardi was around.

That is why Chris Britton hasn't appeared before tonight - and Torre has only used him over Vizcaino tonight because it became a bullpen game. When Torre inexplicably refused to let DeSalvo learn on the job. Just as he has done with Clippard, Rasner, Karstens, and Igawa - oh, and DeSalvo himself.

That is why Sean Henn is in the minors, and Ron Villone - who NO OTHER TEAM WANTED - is in pinstripes.

That is why Andy Phillips was buried after the 5K game vs Kazmir in '05.

That is why Sean Henn was buried after he imploded against the Devil Rays, when he was called up as an emergency starter.

Joe Torre is a great manager in many ways, but I will not be sorry when this year ends and he retires. Its time for someone who will let the kids play, and learn, on the job. Who doesn't manage a bullpen by the Wheel of Guts. Who ignores the (right) numbers when they scream, "Don't pitch Proctor against the Red Sox!" but doesn't ignore the (wrong) numbers when they say "Hey, Enrique Wilson is 10 for 20 off Pedro, I'll start him at 2B" or "Hey, Randy Velarde may be over 40, but he's got good career numbers vs Johnson, who cares if its the World Series, I'll start him at first base!"

In the meantime, that was almost a nice game there. They'll get 'em next time.

I caught the last couple of innings. I'd like to see Torre sit Jeter for a couple of days so that he can rest. adequately.

I was inspired by the fight that was there in the 9th, despite things.

227 Yes, Cairo is a better defensive first baseman. I think the average umbrella stand is a better defensive first baseman than Cairo.

231 Arrgh. I mean than Phelps. He was awful tonight.

Cairo is the Yanks' best baserunner. I got no problem with him going in there. He stole a base and scored a run. What's not to like?

Well, tomorrow's another day.

I really like Justice on the postgame.

Just tuning in to the Banter for the night:

Wait, there's an Andy Phillips debate going on and I'm not involved... how can that be? ;-)

You think Jeter's hurt?

I think Andy Phillips is going to be the starting first baseman until Minky comes back. Phelps almost got Jeter killed tonight, and Torre takes a dim view of that kind of thing.

235 I was wondering where you were. I kept expecting you show up with your "Roll Tide" posts. ;-)

237 Yeah, just my luck that I missed all the fun. Although it looks like a few people picked up my slack while I was out (who knew there where other Andy Phillips fans around here? ;-)

Oh, and Roll Tide!!

A lot of people are probably hoping it's Duncan who gets called up, but I wouldn't mind seeing Andy again. He's hitting well in Scranton.

240 The main advantage of Duncan is that he has played some OF (though the rumour is that he is pretty bad on defense all the way around)--this could give the team some more roster flexibility. then again, that also assumes Torre would take advantage of the additional flexibilty.

Duncan is hitting with more power than Andy, at least so far. And he's younger, and probably deserves a chance.

But "pretty bad on defense" - we have Josh Phelps for that. :-P

239 & 240 Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Duncan (I assume you mean Shelley). I don't know much about him. I assume that if his Duncan's D is lacking then they figure that he doesn't offer much more than Phelps. At least Andy has a nice glove at 1B (didn't Jim Kaat say last year that he thought that if given a chance Andy might win a GG at first?).

Kaat did say that, but I think he was kinda nuts. Not that Andy's awful or anything, but a GG?

He is definitely a quantum leap better than Phelps, though. Though his "rate" is below average, I think he was improving. I seem to recall that his problem was occasionally awkward footwork. Which is certainly something that can be fixed with practice.

241 & 242 Great minds thinking alike I guess, randym (not bad for a little ol engineer from Univ. of Alabama thinking on par with a distinguished RPI grad ;-)

243 Yeah, I was a little dubious of the Kaat comment when I heard it (it was somewhere around that moment that I knew it time for Kaat to retire). But it's about all I've got to throw at Mattpat when it comes to Andy Phillips (so don't tell him that I said I thought it was dubious).

I'm out, g'night all.

Wow, Oakland's closer is Alan Embree with Street out (yet again)? That's really the best they could do? Wowza...

This game shone a light on a situation that Cashman has to bear some responsibilty for. We have not one professional hitter on our bench. No Tony Clark, Cecil Fielder or Ruben Sierra. Not that these guys would be your first choice, but they look like Mickey Mantle compared to what we have. How did this happen? I know we were supposed to crush the opposition with our starters, but injuries happen, and preparing for this is the job of the General Manager. I was concerned this past winter when it became clear that the Yankees weren't making a deal to bring in a talented bench player. All that praise that people have thrust his way concerning his refusal to trade away our farm talent. Well we now see how talented they are, and so has the rest of the league. Thereby exaserbating the difficulty in making a trade now.

246

We have Ron Villone on our active roster. Proving that having money doesn't guarantee good decisions.