I also don't understand why everyone can vote 25 times. What's the logic in that?

As for the 25 times thing, the only thought I have is that perhaps the logic is that casual fans who are more likely to vote for name players (or as my girlfriend does, for just silly names in general--turns out she got Pujols and Uggla right by that method) might only vote once, while hardcore fans like you and me are more likely to use up all 25 ballots, thus skewing the vote toward the more educated picks. The big but here is that you'll get diehard fans voting for their team's entire starting nine 25 times as well (Becky's AL picks were seven of the eight Yankees on the ballot with Bernie penciled in in place of Damon for the final spot).

Ha. Good point, although.....ah, forget it. No sense starting a political sh*tstorm "discussion" on a baseball site. Besides, sometimes baseball just seems more important than politics (or at the very least it's easier for me to enjoy).

That's the main point against fan voting; when someone gets voted as a starter that shouldn't even make the team as a reserve. Although overall, I think fan voting for the starters is a good thing.

Great ballot, poor Joe Mauer definitely deserves better than he's getting.

I'm a Mets fan, so you can take that into account. Miguel is definitely better than I thought he was and the race is closer thatn I thought, but by what metric is Wright's defense worse than Cabrera's? (and neither of them have been that stellar) Miguel has more errors, the least accurate measure, but is he better in fielding win shares or some such? Sadly, I'm not sure where to grab those or any other alternative defensive metrics.

What really annoys me about All-Star voting/selection is how it can be twisted into arguments about someone's HoF credentials. For example "But Bert Blyleven only had 2 All-Star appearances!" - and, ergo, he is clearly not Hall of Fame worthy. The flip-side argument is equally vacuous - "So-and-so made 7 All-Star teams, so clearly he's a Hall of Famer." No ready example comes to mind, but I'm sure that case has been made before.

Maybe my real problem is with the way the voters make decisions for the HoF, not so much the ASG. I guess I'd just like to see more intelligence injected into the process somewhere, instead of it degrading into a popularity contest.

I think I could say the same thing about public office elections as well. ;)

That said, one could argue that the hall of FAME and the all-STAR game are popularity contests by nature, but thankfully those definitions are becoming increasingly irrelevent. At any rate, using All-Star game appearances (or appearances on the roster at least) wouldn't be a bad way of figuring out how a player rated in context of his leage and his era if there weren't so many errors made on the rosters.

The problem is it's hard to be get it right mid-season. I think having the game midseason is a great idea, but with half the games unplayed you risk leaving out strong second half performers and rewarding early season flukes, and that's if you're paying enough attention to vote in the most worthy players in the first place as opposed to Jason Freaking Varitek.

There are two schools of thought here. I like to reward players having good seasons, and thus wait until the last minute to vote. Baseball Prospectus's Joe Sheehan doesn't like rewarding players for two or three good months that could turn out to be flukes and goes more with reputation, posting his votes in early June. The problem with that is essentially uses the current season's stats as a tie breaker, thus Rafael Furcal gets the pick over Jose Reyes, Barry Bonds gets the pick over Carlos Beltran, Ivan Rodriguez gets the call over Joe Mauer and Gary Sheffield makes his ballot in the AL outfield. Yes, he's saved himself from the embarassment of watching Dan Uggla turn back into a pumpkin in the second half, but Furcal, Bonds, Pudge and Sheff do not deserve to make the 2006 All-Star team any more than Paul Lo Duca does.

Sheehan clams his method is based on the idea that the game is for the fans, not the players, so the biggest stars should be playing, but I want to see guys like Mauer and Reyes play, young exciting players playing at the top of their games, not warmed over leftovers such as Bonds and Pudge or middle-tier stars having off years such as Furcal.

My point is that even smart, informed analysts who do this sort of thing for a living can screw up an All-Star ballot, so what hope is there for the average fan?

Uh. Yeah. End rant.

Actually, I find AL catcher to be the most difficult pick. My vote can influence the outcome of the Pudge vs. Varitek race. Whoopy-doo. I detest Pudge. He is the most overrated player of his generation and he stole the MVP from Jeter in '99. I am nauseated by the way the Detroit media and fan base suck up to him. Any self-respecting Tiger fan should have booed him out of Comerica last August, especially after he bad-mouthed his manager and teamates and arrogantly proclaimed "I don't do walks." I firmly believe that with a league-average catcher, the 2005 Tigers would have been a .500 team.

But the only catcher less deserving of an all-star spot than Pudge is Varitek (I think his VORP is something like 3.8).

Okay, so I'll hold my nose and waste my vote on "symbolism." So do I vote for Mauer, the most deserving candidate, or for Posada, who needs more respect?

Except for the fact that the 'prize' for this fan's exhibition game is home-field advantage in the WS.

Add to that the point by 15. It is an honor that is important to the players, and impacts their careers.

I don't like Fans voting. I don't trust their judgement in baseball OR in politics. At least in presidental elections, there is a 50% chance to get it right. Lets not talk about 2000 and 2004.

Maybe we should give ONE vote to each player, manager and coach... instead of the fans.

I imagine there are a bunch of mentally deluded Sox fans, possibly MIT grads or the such, who can batch votes or otherwise hack/skew the system. How else does 'Captain' Veritek make it?

There could be 1 or 2 honorarium spots for perenial greats... so fans could see, and maybe have a pinch hit AB, from some of the greats who don't deserve to make the team that year.

Arod should get the pick over lowell, but I don't think 8 out of 11 stolen bases is remarkable enough to even bring up, while you seem to underestimate lowell's defensive advantage. At this point he's in a different class than arod defensively.

Then, in the midst of this circus, a manager actually does what he is (hint-hint) supposed to do, by emptying his bench and getting everyone in the game, and so he runs out of players and the (exhibition) game ends in a tie. This leads to the predictable overreaction whereby an exhibition game then determined who was the hometeam in the WS.

I secretly (well, not secretly now) hope that no Yankees are chosen--especially pitchers--so they can rest a few days and not get hurt. In an exhibition game.

Oh yeah, one that is generally played in some new tax-payer funded stadium.

Two-run homer off Schilling. Go, Mets!

You do understand that this is BRONX Banter, not Back Bay Banter, right? I here there's a wicked site called Sons of Sam Horn that might just be right up your alley?

If you think I'm 'nuts' about loretta being over looked, I'd love to hear why. I don't care about any "this is for yankees only" or some idiot saying "owned" like he's 12 years old..

On topic, Loretta is now hitting 323. He belongs on the list. Any fair minded baseball fan would say the same. I'm betting cliff just over looked him.

Loretta's OPS is .770, Cano is .792, both of these numbers really aren't that good, they both hit for average with a little speed but no power (3 HR 14 2B for Loretta, 4 HR 13 2B 1 3B for Cano ) Loretta makes fewer mistakes on defense (3 error versus Cano's 7) but Cano's range is better and have made far more plays this year. so on defense at best it's a tie.

Cliff, I have to disagree with ur pick on Robbie though, Lopez is more deserving although percentage wise Robbie is somewhat better. and defensely he is a bit better too.

Heres the main reason why Lopez have been a more valuable player.

Lopez: 47 runs scored, 9 HR, 57 RBI

Cano : 34 Runs scored, 4 HR, 27 RBI <---

My main grudge against Cano is that he has hit like shite this year in RISP (but because his name isn't A-rod people don't notice), and is a main culprit of the Yankee's recent offense slumps despite being super hot (, he simply isn't driving in much runs at all, all his Home runs are solo shots too. He has been a great percentage player, but he hasn't gotten the results to reflect those numbers so far.

For the season, Robbie's RISP is .227/.268/.320 , that's just beyond bad. the only worse Regular is Bernie, who's a ungodly .125/ .300/ .125 this season. (just another reason why they might as well start Bubba in right and bench him...)

In June, Robbie was a wooping .998 OPS, but managed to score 8 times driving in 7 .. oh yeah, he had 2 solo shots too.. so he only really drove in 5 in almost 83 at bats

In contrast, Melky Cabrera whom had a utterly terrible June with a .607 OPS scored 16 times and drove in 8 in 95 at bats, yes 2 of those runs he drove in was himself too but still, it goes to show how Robbie Cano's serious downfall so far this season. Even everyone's favorite scape goat A-rod whom also had a bad June with a .724 OPS managed to score 9 times and drove in 11 with 2 more at bats than Robbie.

That's why Lopez have more win shares than Cano also.

I really like Cano, but I still feel he hasn't been deserving of all star this season so far.

Tiger fandom also made sure I noticed that Curtis Granderson (another excellent fielder) is leading the entire AL in Win Shares; I voted him over Wells, but maybe you just overlooked him.

That leaves four where I think you're taking an extreme position and not admitting it, Cliff. Sure, this year's stats are important. But why do you keeping choosing a small (even debatable) edge in 2006 stats over a large difference in prior record?

Ichiro Suzuki: .358/.409/.447, GPA .310, 12 Win Shares, in a totally normal year, vs
Jermaine Dye: .306/.392/.617, GPA .324, 13 Win Shares, after three years of being ordinary.

Dan Uggla: .312/.365/.530, GPA .309, okay defense, 12 Win Shares, coming out of nowhere, vs
Jeff Kent: .271/.377/.473, GPA .301, good defense, 10 Win Shares, on the gentle downslope of a Hall of Fame career.

Miguel Cabrera: .343/.442/.573, GPA .356, okay defense at best, 14 Win Shares, and maybe every bit that good, vs
Scott Rolen: .344/.409/.568, GPA .330, Gold Glove defense, 13 Win Shares, and for-sure every bit that good.

Matt Holliday: .352/.396/.614, GPA .292, 12 Win Shares, emerging from two years as a below-average hitter, vs
Bobby Abreu: .287/.449/.474, GPA .304, 14 Win Shares - more than Holliday's - in an average year for him.

Why such a very strong devotion to the new? I assune you have a good answer, but right now I don't get it.

Robbie's been batting behind Posada, who is difficult to drive in, and occaisionally also behind Bernie. Combine this with Rodriguez's slump and Cano probably did not find himself in a position to drive in a run with a single very often (I could be wrong; how many opportunities did he have this month with a man on second? third?). This kind of thing is always the problem with highlighting the RBI stat.

Regarding the .227 RISP, that is his fault, but it also goes into how pitchers approach him. In the bottom third of the order, he doesn't have much protection behind him that pitchers respect (even with Andy's good June; also, June has seen many games in NL parks, where his only protection has often been Melky and the pitcher, nevermind Andy). Because of his reputation as a free swinger, pitchers haven't been giving him much to hit with RISP, and because the reputation is well earned, he's been getting himself out. His lack of patience has a great deal to do with that number.

As for the solo home runs, I've just been happy to see some signs of life (though not enough) in that department. It's not his fault if nobody else is on. Pitchers are more willing to pitch to him in those situations anyway.

Most of his problems either seem to be not his fault entirely, or because he won't take more pitches.

I'm actually glad he won't be playing this year. Pick a reason: some variety on the roster, room for a more deserving player on the roster, keep him hungry to improve through next season if a chance to play in the All-Star game is something that can motivate him, etc., etc.

BTW, I made a mistake on Bernie, that stats I meantioned was him batting as DH, as a OF where he has far more AB he's been a .291 /.323 /.364 hitter in RISP.

Cano had the second most at bats for RISP on the team with 75, the media's favorite whipping boy A-rod have the most at 88, and he is .295/ .442 /.523 , talk about bad PR for A-rod ...

As for line up postioning, that might be part of the problem but it shouldnt reflect to that crazy of a difference.

Robbie having the second most ABs with RISP and the worst average hitting in that situation is not a good thing. I wonder if a lineup shakeup would help?

While there is some truth to the "protection" argument, I am actually in the "over-hyped" camp at present. Robbie's great because he's a sophomore and improving...I wouldn't trade him for anything. But if I forget that for a minute, and evaluate him the same as any other MLB player, he isn't really that great yet. He gets a lot of meaningless hits, he runs the bases like crap, and he's heard that Rod Carew comparison so many times I think he's consciously trying to imitate him now...much to his own detriment as it impacts his power (which far exceeds Carew's).