Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim Instant Redux: Just Like Starting Over Edition
2008-08-08 15:52
by Cliff Corcoran

The Yankees are 5-7 since opening the second half with an eight-game winning streak and have lost the first two games of each of their last three series, including last weekend's four-game set against the Angels at the Stadium. Then again, they rallied to earn four-game splits in their last two series, and given the Angels' .644 winning percentage on the road, splitting four against them in the Bronx was perfectly acceptable.

Facing a three-game set in Anaheim this weekend, the Yankees don't have the option of a split. For all of the Angels' success on the road, the Halos still have a .600 winning percentage at home and are 11-3 in Anaheim since July 1. The Yankees righted their ship against the Angels last weekend by dropping a six-spot on Jered Weaver, who starts again tonight, but Weaver's home ERA is more than a run lower than his road mark and his home run and walk rates are way down in his home park.

This series will be a real test for the Yankees, but the biggest test will be for tonight's starter, Ian Kennedy. Kennedy's already been tested quite a bit this season, by his manager, who challenged the young righty to throw strikes during his early season struggles, by the organization, which farmed him out to triple-A in early May when he failed to meet Girardi's challenge (7.61 BB/9 in his first six games), and by the team doctors after he left his third start following his recall with what proved to be an oblique strain.

Kennedy returned to action at the end of June with a pair of dominant rehab outings in the low minors and has since made seven appearances (six starts) for triple-A Scranton, posting a 2.60 ERA and walking just 3.08 men per nine innings, an exact match of his minor league walk rate last year. In his last four starts for Scranton he has compiled this line: 27 IP, 14 H, 4 R, 5 BB, 20 K, 3-0, 1.33 ERA, 0.70 WHIP.

Given his struggles in the majors at the start of the year and his 0-3 record on the season, it's easy to forget that Kennedy did turn in two quality starts in his seven opportunities, both games the Yankees went on to win after his departure. Still, the gap between Kennedy's minor league dominance (career: 17-5, 1.90 ERA, 214 K in 203 1/3 IP) and his pitching in the majors earlier this year was wide and more than a little bothersome.

After straining his oblique at the end of May, Kennedy was replaced in the rotation by Joba Chamberlain. With Chamberlain on the DL due to rotator cuff tendonitis, Kennedy is being given his third chance to establish himself in the Yankee rotation. Beating Weaver and the Angels tonight while keeping his walks down would be a huge victory, not only for the team, but for Kennedy, who needs to stand atop major league mounds with the same confidence and command he's shown throughout his brief minor league career.


Untitled The Angels' roster is largely unchanged. Darren O'Day has been farmed out in favor of retread righty Shane Loux, last seen pitching for the Tigers in 2003 when he was Kennedy's age. They're also expected to activate catcher Mike Napoli before tonight's game. If they do, third-stringer Ryan Budde will be optioned to make room. Napoli is an upgrade over Jeff Mathis at the plate as he's something of a Three-True-Outcome guy. In 757 major league plate appearances, Napoli has 38 homers, 104 walks, and 199 strikeouts, giving him a career line of .229/.345/.455.

Melky Cabrera returns to center field tonight as Bobby Abreu gets a turn at DH and Xavier Nady shifts over to right field. Jose Molina will catch Kennedy with Ivan Rodriguez still nursing his knee. Chris Britton, of course, was optioned to Scranton to make room for Kennedy on the roster.



Comments (240)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-08-08 17:43:16
1.   Just fair
I'm hoping for a 6+ from Ian tonight, obviously. I can live with him getting knocked around a bit. But if he if shows excessive nbbling and refuses to throw the ball over the plate, I might throw my remote at him. Reading his quote the other day about how he felt he "deserved to up there" irks me. Cripes, Ian. Roy Hallady went to minors, and you're no Doc.
2008-08-08 17:44:14
2.   OldYanksFan
Jeez - the least they could do is buy Britton his own airplane. Poor smuck travels more then the President.
2008-08-08 17:57:24
3.   OldYanksFan
1 There has been a lot of hype on IPK, especially since his was 'the straw that broke the camels back' in the Santana deal. But I don't think the Yanks EVER saw him as more then a #4/#5 guy. And if he is an above average #5, he has a lot of value.

If the Yanks want a max payroll of $200m, that's an average of $8m/player. So just to pay ARod, we need 2+ minimum wage kids. For Mo, another kid. For Jeter, another kid+. For Posada, another kid. A CC or Tex, another kid+.

So it is essential, even with the largest payroll, that they Yanks have a number of effective, cheap kids, in order to afford ARod and other impact players.

Of course, when you have a stud kid like Joba, and hopefully Phil, you get the gold ring. With over $70m wrapped up in only 4 players (ARod, Jetes, Mo, Po), having IPK for cheap sure beats paying $9m for a Washburn.

I do believe however, IPK can be around league average or under a 5.00 ERA. That would make him a very suitable #5.

2008-08-08 18:22:33
4.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
3 5.00 ERA will be suitable??

no game on tv here, for next two weeks will be pre-empted by live Olympic coverage...looks like Gamedat radio listening for me...D'oh!

btw, that Olympic opening ceremony was too short..think they left out some Chinese inventions throughout history too...

2008-08-08 18:41:34
5.   OldYanksFan
4 League average is usually around 4.5, although it's lower this year. So a 5.0 ERA from your worst pitcher is acceptable. How many teams have a #5 with better then a 5 ERA?
2008-08-08 18:50:31
6.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
5 sure, but wouldn't you want IPK to do a little better than a 5 ERA with all his potential?? Ponson right now is giving at least that..and he stinks..
2008-08-08 18:59:12
7.   Eirias
Britton was sent down to keep him away from the candy.
2008-08-08 19:07:56
8.   JL25and3
2 That move was patently obvious from the moment they brought Britton up.

3 I don't get why payroll has suddenly become a paramount issue for the Yankees. They've spent like drunken sailors for a long time, and they've made extraordinary amounts of money in the process. Next year their revenue stream is going to skyrocket.

Obviously, they shouldn't spend money badly. But money well spent on Rodriguez shouldn't affect the rest of their spending one iota.

2008-08-08 19:08:31
9.   Chyll Will
7 I thought it was because the regular bus driver is competing at the Olympics...
2008-08-08 19:12:11
10.   Chyll Will
Dammit! Good catch by Torii...
2008-08-08 19:12:33
11.   pistolpete
2008-08-08 19:14:06
12.   monkeypants
Wrong approach again by Jeter, I assume. I'm not watching the game, but listening to Sterling it just sounded like a selfish approach to me.
2008-08-08 19:15:01
13.   Chyll Will
Well, at least they're getting solid wood on the ball. It's just a matter of time before they either start making the gaps or flying out the park.
2008-08-08 19:16:14
14.   monkeypants
6 Well, Ponson's ERA for the Yankees is 4.73, so better than 5.00 but not by much. In any case, Ponson's season so far defies rational analysis, so best just not to mention him at all.
2008-08-08 19:16:57
15.   Chyll Will
12 Not at all. He hit the ball hard and deep, but Torii Hunter caught up with the ball; good play. Would've been at least a double if he missed it.
2008-08-08 19:21:58
16.   pistolpete
2008-08-08 19:22:10
17.   Eirias
Such failure.
2008-08-08 19:22:17
18.   Chyll Will
Well, this got bad in a hurry...
2008-08-08 19:22:43
19.   monkeypants
And so it begins...

Maybe Damon needs to take a page or two from Abreu's book on fielding the ball near the wall.

2008-08-08 19:23:20
20.   randym77
Yikes. I suppose this means Damon will be out tomorrow.
2008-08-08 19:23:21
21.   Just fair
What's a f#$%ing Angel's game if it's not at least 2-0 after the 1st. Grrr.......
2008-08-08 19:24:51
22.   pistolpete
This lineup might as well be called, "We all Have Career Games Against the Yankees". Kennedy doesn't make it out of the 3rd, guaranteed.
2008-08-08 19:25:12
23.   OldYanksFan
It looked like JD should have had that? Yes? No?
2008-08-08 19:25:27
24.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
atleast ChiSox ahead of Bos 5-3 in 8th...
2008-08-08 19:26:01
25.   pistolpete
So what was holding that gate together in the first place, a single rubber band?
2008-08-08 19:26:11
26.   randym77
It looked to me like Damon was distracted by Melky. Melky called the ball, but Damon was the one with the better chance of catching it.
2008-08-08 19:26:21
27.   monkeypants
I've got the game on the radio? Did Jeter selfishly catch that pop fly, trying to show up A-Rod?
2008-08-08 19:27:09
28.   Alex Belth
Nice to see IPK picking up where he left off...
2008-08-08 19:27:11
29.   monkeypants
23 I'm just happy when he doesn't get hurt.
2008-08-08 19:27:17
30.   weeping for brunnhilde
Well, Team, here we go again.

At least we had two well-struck balls in the first. That's something.

Otherwise, it looks to be a long night, as usual.

2008-08-08 19:27:57
31.   Chyll Will
23 Hard to say. The give on the wall probably saved his shoulder from extensive damage, but also gave no support for establishing a firm grip. or perhaps even dislodged it.
2008-08-08 19:29:42
32.   pistolpete
Wow, nice job by YES showing Weaver the entire time. Are you kidding me?
2008-08-08 19:29:51
33.   weeping for brunnhilde


Guess hitter.

I was cursing his name for that 3-1 take (what are you looking for?) and before the thought was out: BAM!

Guessing breaking ball.

2008-08-08 19:29:59
34.   Alex Belth
2008-08-08 19:30:14
35.   Alison
What a time to get home and turn on the game...go A-Rod!
2008-08-08 19:30:17
36.   Chyll Will
27 Yes, and he even did the "snatch-catch" and flipped it to A-Rod on the way back.

Ah, that's better. See, I told you it would happen 13 >;)

2008-08-08 19:30:36
37.   OldYanksFan
I think that should count as 'close and late'. I mean, it get late in LA early.
2008-08-08 19:30:50
38.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
yeahhhh, Boyeeeeee! GO GO A-Rod, bust out of that slump! how far that one go? Angels radio guys seaid beyond the 2nd bullpen...
2008-08-08 19:32:19
39.   JL25and3
Rodriguez's power never ceases to amaze me. He routinely hits bombs to places no one else can reach.
2008-08-08 19:32:34
40.   monkeypants
34 Alex, are you joining the party tonight? Does that mean I have to tone down my sarcasm?
2008-08-08 19:35:30
41.   Alison
32 I know, I was totally confused as to what was going on cause i just turned on the game and Kay is calling a HR, but they are showing the Weaver brother...
2008-08-08 19:38:11
42.   weeping for brunnhilde


Guess hitter.

I was cursing his name for that 3-1 take (what are you looking for?) and before the thought was out: BAM!

Guessing breaking ball.

2008-08-08 19:38:11
43.   Alex Belth
Only for a minute...actually, up here in Vermont visiting the in-laws. Am watching the Red Sox-White Sox game. Man, that Dustin Pedrioa is a pain in the ass.

Casey just grounded out to end it though. White Sox win.

2008-08-08 19:38:30
44.   pistolpete
You know, I actually saw someone wearing a "Got Melk?" Cabrera t-shirt today. All I could do was stare and shake my head.
2008-08-08 19:39:18
45.   tommyl
Wow Melky pops out. I bet no one could have seen that coming.
2008-08-08 19:39:54
46.   Chyll Will
42 Hey Weep, you okay there, buddy?
2008-08-08 19:40:15
47.   tommyl
Woah, Melky is currently sporting a .637 OPS? I knew he was having a bad year, but .637?! That's Manny's batting average as a Dodger!
2008-08-08 19:40:40
48.   monkeypants
Once again, I like the idea of Ian Kennedy...
2008-08-08 19:41:29
49.   Chyll Will
44 ,45 I would've demanded twenty push-ups on the spot...
2008-08-08 19:41:37
50.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
44 i fondly remember the days of the Melkman and Bubble Gum Crosby...

another XBH..IPK make even 3??

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-08-08 19:41:44
51.   Just fair
"What, me worry about hanging breaking stuff?" : (
2008-08-08 19:41:50
52.   Travis08
How do you go 33 of 67 with only 4 RBI?

5 hard hit balls in 7 ABs vs. IPK. This doesn't look good.

2008-08-08 19:43:33
53.   monkeypants
Bringing in the infield in the second inning?
2008-08-08 19:44:27
54.   OldYanksFan
Red Sox lose.
2008-08-08 19:44:41
55.   Chyll Will
48 Ian's pitches sure have a lot of movement tonight. Unfortunately, it's only after they're hit...
2008-08-08 19:45:38
56.   tommyl
I don't get this. How can IPK be so freakin' good in the minors, good in the majors last year and pitch like this? I mean he was dominating AAA 5 days ago. What gives?
2008-08-08 19:46:06
57.   Just fair
If I had a house I would bet it that Choad gets a hit here.
2008-08-08 19:47:20
58.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
56 gap between MLB and AAA bigger than that of MLB and Japan or Carib League...
2008-08-08 19:48:06
59.   pistolpete
Every time someone like IPK has a game like this, you really have to question the quality of hitters at the AAA level.
2008-08-08 19:48:25
60.   Alex Belth
Wow, can't believe Figgins didn't bury IPK there...
2008-08-08 19:48:35
61.   Just fair
If I had a house I would be it that Aybar gets a hit here.
Worked the first time. : )
2008-08-08 19:49:48
62.   monkeypants
56 It will be interesting to see how patient Girardi is with IPK. He has given Chuck Wagon a lot of rope this year, and it has paid off so far. maybe this time around IPK can pitch himself into some sort of rhythm.
2008-08-08 19:50:07
63.   randym77
56 Maybe for the same reason Andy Phillips is OPSing .887 in the minors but .424 in the big league.
2008-08-08 19:51:07
64.   Chyll Will
61 Wow, they'd love you at Foxwoods >;)
2008-08-08 19:51:34
65.   Just fair
Every time Cone talks about a night on the town, an angel gets his wings. Alright, Ian. That's one bullet dodged. Keep em in it.
2008-08-08 19:51:38
66.   Alex Belth
Hey, whadda ya say!
2008-08-08 19:52:29
67.   monkeypants
63 Could be. On a more hopeful note, Andy is the 30 y.o. MiL veteran--it's not surprising that he has mastered AAA even if he can't make the jump. Kennedy is still young and has time to improve.
2008-08-08 19:53:22
68.   Just fair
64 Unfortunately for them, I'm not a betting man.
2008-08-08 19:53:39
69.   Max
IPK's game so far reminds me of one of those bulging pinatas that is just about to burst with one solid blow. I think we better score some runs.
2008-08-08 19:53:44
70.   Chyll Will
65 Yunnow, I looked at 59 and thought the same thing. Good show >;)
2008-08-08 19:56:11
71.   Just fair
The proper approach here= bunt or hit and run. For the love of Pete.
2008-08-08 19:57:00
72.   Chyll Will
68 No, but apparently you are an indian giver, so it still applies >;)
2008-08-08 19:57:02
73.   randym77
67 I definitely think IPK can improve. It may not be reasonable to expect him to do it this season, though.

Heck, I think Andy Phillips can probably improve. He did all right last season, and really hasn't had much chance to play this season.

2008-08-08 19:58:07
74.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
John Edwards admits to extra-marital affair..on other news, Tokyo railway found to be crowded, and North Korea condemns American Imperialism...yawn...i hope A-Rod hits 4 HRs today to bring some excitement to the newspapers..
2008-08-08 19:58:23
75.   Chyll Will
I hate it when you have to say "aw crap" to a double...
2008-08-08 19:58:56
76.   Travis08
Does anyone really care about the Venezuelan record for doubles?


2008-08-08 19:59:01
77.   Alex Belth
Nuts, bum luck on the gr double.
2008-08-08 19:59:54
78.   randym77
Make 'em pay, Jason!
2008-08-08 19:59:59
79.   Alex Belth
2008-08-08 20:00:13
80.   Chyll Will
74 Well, I'm supposing not...
2008-08-08 20:00:53
81.   Just fair
72 I take back all that I've said. : ) Hey, howz about a bases loaded knock.
2008-08-08 20:01:33
82.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
damn, radio feed is 3 pitches behind the Banter and Gameday...
2008-08-08 20:01:42
83.   tommyl
Ahem gameday clearly shows ball 4 there.
2008-08-08 20:02:38
84.   monkeypants
You see, Weaver is walking everybody and Jeter swings. What a terrible approach--fire Cashman, Girardi and Eiland.
2008-08-08 20:02:53
85.   Chyll Will
Cool. We might win by default if this keeps up...
2008-08-08 20:03:22
86.   mehmattski
84 Don't forget Rick Cerone.
2008-08-08 20:04:12
87.   Chyll Will
2008-08-08 20:04:22
88.   monkeypants
Viva Brett Gardner!!!
2008-08-08 20:05:00
89.   mehmattski
Chone Figgins- single-handedly giving the Yankees leads since August 2008.
2008-08-08 20:05:10
90.   Just fair
Should we make a list of firsts seen this week. I have been playing and watching for 25 years, but this week has been madness.
2008-08-08 20:05:10
91.   Alex Belth
Make em pay Robbie!
2008-08-08 20:05:27
92.   Alex Belth
Maybe not...
2008-08-08 20:05:57
93.   tommyl
Thankfully Nady is much better than Craig Wilson was so far. Phew.
2008-08-08 20:06:12
94.   Travis08
What's more bizarre: Cano's first half/second half split or his bases loaded split?
2008-08-08 20:06:23
95.   tommyl
89 what happened?
2008-08-08 20:07:07
96.   Chyll Will
89 "But he ain't use no hands, Lt. Dan..." >;)
2008-08-08 20:07:23
97.   Travis08
95 Dribbler up the 3rd base line, Figgins let it go, hoping it would kick foul, but it hit the 3rd base bag.
2008-08-08 20:07:27
98.   OldYanksFan
84 AW C'MON DUDE! No reason to fire Cashman!
2008-08-08 20:07:31
99.   Max
Robbie looked really good with his plate approach in Texas, but he goes back to first pitch swinging there...sigh.
2008-08-08 20:08:54
100.   tommyl
This ump is all over the place. Pitches 3 and 5 were literally in the same place. One was a ball, one was a strike.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-08-08 20:09:09
101.   Chyll Will
95 Infield hit pastawatching Figgins,
2008-08-08 20:09:43
102.   tommyl
Ugh, fucking come on Ian. Get some outs here.
2008-08-08 20:10:28
103.   Just fair
F@$#ing terrible play. C'mon.
2008-08-08 20:11:07
104.   monkeypants
62 Hmmm...I'm guessing not very patient.
2008-08-08 20:12:13
105.   rsmith51
Kennedy should have been watching Moose...
2008-08-08 20:12:45
106.   OldYanksFan
Big Papi with an .807 OPS, and .250 .327 .354 .681 since the ASB.
If the Sox manage to miss the PS this year, the Boston Media with be all Manny, all the Manny day. Meanwhile, Manny will singlehandedly bring LA to the PS.
2008-08-08 20:12:52
107.   tommyl
3-2 again. Ian, you're a control pitcher, remember?
2008-08-08 20:13:51
108.   pistolpete
Hey, no sweat Derek — not like IPK needs EVERY out he can get at this point.
2008-08-08 20:14:01
109.   rsmith51
Definitely an error...
2008-08-08 20:14:07
110.   Max
This is painful.
2008-08-08 20:14:08
111.   OldYanksFan
Aw jeez... I can't even take a piss without IPK giving up a run. What happened?
2008-08-08 20:14:25
112.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Angels radio guy: "IPK seems to be struggling a little bit in the majors this year.." really?? very astute analysis..
2008-08-08 20:14:26
113.   tommyl
Remember when IPK was supposed to be a major part of our rotation? Ugh, c'mon kid, pitch
2008-08-08 20:14:39
114.   Just fair
Kennedy makes me long for Pavano. Which makes me a tad sick to my stomach. Just keep it 6-3 or less. Geez.
2008-08-08 20:15:10
115.   Chyll Will
2008-08-08 20:15:17
116.   mehmattski
Jesus, that pitch was almost on the ground. Can't really fault Kennedy for that one...
2008-08-08 20:15:30
117.   rsmith51
I hate the Angels...

They ALWAYS seem to have the Yankees number.

2008-08-08 20:15:33
118.   pistolpete
22 I didn't want to be right, but it's looking that way.
2008-08-08 20:15:37
119.   Travis08
Kei Igawa's won his last 4 starts at AAA. He can't be much worse than this.
2008-08-08 20:16:03
120.   monkeypants
And now the wheels come of the wagon: shouldabeen error and two dunkers. So, when comes the three run blast?
2008-08-08 20:16:46
121.   mehmattski
119 Didn't Kennedy win his last four starts as well?
2008-08-08 20:16:53
122.   OldYanksFan
That's the play Jeter excels at.. RIGHT MONKEYPANTS?
2008-08-08 20:17:12
123.   tommyl
120 I'd guess now. IPK sent back to AAA?
2008-08-08 20:17:38
124.   Just fair
Nady should have gotten at least an out there. I'd clap for you Ian, but you only got 6 outs. F@#2 a duck.
2008-08-08 20:17:41
125.   pistolpete
I never thought I'd see the day when I longed for Jeff Karstens.
2008-08-08 20:17:42
126.   Travis08
121 He got a no-decision in his near no-hitter, but won the other 3.
2008-08-08 20:17:50
127.   Chyll Will
G'nite folks, I'm not playing the good fan tonight; don't need stress from my entertainment right now. Invader Zim, here I come >:'
2008-08-08 20:17:57
128.   randym77
118 Holy crap, you're psychic.
2008-08-08 20:18:27
129.   monkeypants
I'm not saying Girardi shouldn't have pulled Kennedy. but I have always found it odd that a pitcher gets the hook after three "hits", none of which were hit hard. He was getting rocked in the first inning, but not so much here. Still, you have to get outs I guess.
2008-08-08 20:18:54
130.   OldYanksFan
JD misses one for 2 runs, Jeter gives up one and 2 bloops. IPK has not pitched well, but again the score is worse then his pitching.
2008-08-08 20:19:05
131.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
119 has it really come to that??

future is still bright for the Highlanders, but this year just about done methinks...

2008-08-08 20:19:16
132.   tommyl
Oh, now I remember what the first month of the season felt like. Thanks for that reminder Ian.
2008-08-08 20:19:17
133.   rsmith51
I would give Kennedy a start or two more. The Angels always seem to have our number, especially in their home park.

I have a feeling he won't get one, which is not really fair, IMHO.

2008-08-08 20:19:48
134.   pistolpete
He looks ready to cry.

Same here, Ian, same here.

2008-08-08 20:20:06
135.   monkeypants
122 Clear evidence of his decline. And proof of his arrogance and inability to handle off speed pitches and fastballs. No doubt about it.

Fire Bob Shepard and Reggie Jackson.

2008-08-08 20:21:43
136.   mehmattski
126 So.... what's to suggest that Igawa would be better than Kennedy?
2008-08-08 20:21:50
137.   pistolpete
Only explanation is that it's psychological.
2008-08-08 20:22:16
138.   monkeypants
Rasner and Geise seem to pitch better in long relief than starting. maybe they should marry IPK to both of them. Kennedy starts and pitches one or two innings, then is pulled immediately for Rasner/Geise.
2008-08-08 20:23:21
139.   tommyl
133 Thing is, there really isn't anyone else to bring up. Igawa is well Igawa. We no longer have McCutchen, Aceves isn't ready yet, neither is Hughes. Its either IPK or Rasner pitching in Joba's spot.
2008-08-08 20:23:25
140.   Travis08
126 Absolutely nothing. Note my phrasing in 119 .

Nice job by Rasner. Why do the Yankees' 5th starters pitch so poorly as starters and so well in long relief?

2008-08-08 20:23:31
141.   Just fair
Sorry, dudes, but I just keep hearing Ian's voice "i belong up there." 2 innings. Only 6 outs. B double O. I get the feeling Cone and Singleton like Kennedy either.
2008-08-08 20:24:04
142.   Max
So will any other teams take a shot on Ian? I do think he deserves one more start, and he isn't tainted in the way Igawa is. But I'm starting to get the feeling he's our Craig Hansen...just all sorts of bad vibes when he takes the mound.

Raz puts out the fire!

2008-08-08 20:25:07
143.   Travis08
142 Craig Hansen got the save for the Pirates tonight!
2008-08-08 20:25:47
144.   alittleblackegg
138 I like the out-of-the-box thinking. A 5.5 man rotation!
2008-08-08 20:25:49
145.   Just fair
141 Make that don't like. When your start brings about words like demoralizing, well.....
2008-08-08 20:26:35
146.   monkeypants
139 Hughes is set to throw 85 pitches next start. He's ready to come up if they need him.
2008-08-08 20:26:46
147.   Jeb
Have faith, my son; think of the great Melky Cabrera.
2008-08-08 20:28:22
148.   Jeb
142 If IPK is our Craig Hansen, who is Boston's Melky Cabrera?
2008-08-08 20:28:30
149.   pistolpete
Nothing like 2 automatic outs to lead off an inning.
2008-08-08 20:28:53
150.   Travis08
148 Have you looked at Ellsbury's stats lately?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-08-08 20:29:19
151.   randym77
I wonder if Cashman is wishing he'd traded Melky, IPK, et al for Santana.
2008-08-08 20:30:54
152.   monkeypants
151 I doubt it, since et al included Hughes.
2008-08-08 20:31:23
153.   Just fair
148 Ted Williams' frozen head. He'd be hard to throw strikes to but at least he would get on base. : )
2008-08-08 20:33:28
154.   Just fair
Nady shoulda had it. Oh well.
2008-08-08 20:33:41
155.   pistolpete
151 Or signed Guerrero for that matter.
2008-08-08 20:34:02
156.   monkeypants
I'd like to think Pete Abe is being ironic, but here are two recent updates on his blog, separated by only one other post:

UPDATE, 10:25 p.m.: Cue the "Kennedy stinks" posters. But only a fool would judge him now. He's appearing in his 12th big league start and he has a grand total of 260 professional innings under his belt.

UPDATE, 11:17 p.m.: I'm not ready to declare Ian Kennedy a non-prospect. But that was pretty awful. A few of the nine hits were bleeders but there were a few rockets, too

2008-08-08 20:34:26
157.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
155 oohhhhh...Vlad instead of Sheffield wou;d have been interesting...
2008-08-08 20:38:12
158.   Jeb
156 I came within a whisper of posting that but didn't only because Pete said "I'm not ready to declare Ian Kennedy a non-prospect"...still it's fairly inconsistent unless he's declaring himself a bit of a fool.
2008-08-08 20:38:52
159.   Jeb
157 and beltran
2008-08-08 20:39:03
160.   randym77
152 Yeah, but I think he expected Hughes to do a little better than he has.

I think if he knew it would turn out this way - the injuries, the suckitude - he'd have made a play for Santana. Especially when the price dropped at the deadline.

Alan Horne, the other player Cashman supposedly didn't want to trade, injured his arm in April. He had a rehab start in Tampa and earned himself a 23.14 ERA.

2008-08-08 20:41:15
161.   Jeb
150 Ellsbury OPS+ 81
Melky OPS+ 71

They're both awful, but Melky is Uber-awful. I'd trade Melk for Jacoby.

2008-08-08 20:42:12
162.   Max
148 Jason Varitek. :-) Not even all that clutch captain-ness and unprecedented handling of pitchers can make up for that bat. Then again, what do I know...he was an All-Star this year.

151 160 The most rabid Yankee hater couldn't imagine a scenario where Melky and IPK would suck the way they do this year, or where Hughes would be as snake-bitten as he is by injuries.

Not making the trade was the right move, but every time Melky makes another feeble out, or IPK goes to 3-2 followed by a rocket, yeah, the decision not to trade does look bad.

2008-08-08 20:42:22
163.   OldYanksFan
Sheff played pretty well for us, and I'm sure if we got Vlad, he would have Pavanoed himself. Beltran was a big mistake that will haunt us for years more. As it turns out, RJ cost us a lot.
2008-08-08 20:43:37
164.   pistolpete
Man, if Hughes comes back and stinks it up too, CC can pretty much show up at Hank's door this winter with a blank check.
2008-08-08 20:46:44
165.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
164 say NO to CC!!! too big...too too big....
2008-08-08 20:47:05
166.   monkeypants
160 It's pretty obvious he expected both Kennedy and Hughes to do better--it's not like he figured to ship them both out after about an 8.00 ERA between them.

I still don't think that changes his thinking. If he thinks he has gold with Hughes/Horne/IPK combined, then he is not going to regret whatever move he didn't make a few moths ago. Regret should only crop up in a few years if none of these guys pans out AND Santana ages well.

2008-08-08 20:49:06
167.   Just fair
I kind of want to see Kendrick and Anderson somehow roll an ankle tonight so that we don't have to see them Sat. or Sun. But that's just me.
2008-08-08 20:51:23
168.   randym77
162 I'm not rabid and not a Yankee hater, but I did imagine this scenario. I lost faith in Melky last year, when he didn't improve as you expect a young player to do. Actually, I was never sure Melky was cut out to be an everyday player. And I figured with so many young pitchers, the Yanks were taking a big risk. They may all turn out to be fine pitchers one day, but you had to figure they would struggle at first. And Hughes being injury prone didn't exactly come out of left field. (That was one reason some scouts favored Homer Bailey over Hughes. Hughes seen as more fragile.)

However, you're certainly right that hindsight is 20/20. Just wondering if Cashman is wishing he'd chosen differently with the benefit of hindsight.

As it's going, he may not be with the Yankees next year, to benefit from the young talent he's saved.

2008-08-08 20:52:01
169.   monkeypants
163 We'll see how much that haunts the team. I'm still not convinced he won't turn into GOB within the next year. He would have been great in 2006, no doubt. But I'm not sure he makes a difference in the other seasons, and I'm not sure we wouldn't be bitching about his bloated contract in the coming years.
2008-08-08 20:54:25
170.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
169 GOB Bluth?? C'Mon!!!!! (cue up "The Final Countdown")
2008-08-08 20:55:52
171.   pistolpete
Oh, swell. Weaver's found a groove.
2008-08-08 20:57:01
172.   JL25and3
Well, Kay just got that completely wrong.
2008-08-08 20:57:02
173.   monkeypants
162 "...but every time Melky makes another feeble out, or IPK goes to 3-2 followed by a rocket, yeah, the decision not to trade does look bad."

No, no it doesn't, because 1] such moves can not even begin to be evaluated for at least a few years, and 2] all trade scenarios involved Hughes in addition to IPK and Melky.

2008-08-08 20:58:26
174.   randym77
171 I think he's lost it again.
2008-08-08 20:58:39
175.   Travis08
171 So much for that.

Just get the run in, Melky.

2008-08-08 20:58:53
176.   Just fair
Interesting. At least they know how to make it close.
2008-08-08 21:00:52
177.   pistolpete
Well, most innings he only needs to get past the 6th man in this lineup.
2008-08-08 21:01:08
178.   Jeb
I said to myself I'd go to sleep if we didn't get closer...everytime I try to talk away they pull me back in.
2008-08-08 21:01:10
179.   Eirias
So how soon can we start sending money to CC?
2008-08-08 21:01:53
180.   OldYanksFan
Wasn't Jared Weaver supposed to be the next 'great young pitcher'?
2008-08-08 21:03:10
181.   monkeypants
170 Ghost of Beltran.

His seasons with the Mets:

2005 age 28 96 OPS+
2006 age 29 150 OPS+
2007 age 30 128 OPS+
2008 age 31 118 OPS+

Hmmm..., his age 28 season was his career best by far, and his numbers have declined the last two seasons. So, what does he look like in the last two years of his long, lucrative contract?

In 1998, at age 29, coming off his best season, Bernie Williams signed a long contract, and two-thirds of the way through it he was pretty much cooked. What does the future hold for Carlos?

2008-08-08 21:03:35
182.   Max
168 I'll acknowledge that Melky was probably a bit overvalued on our end -- I don't think Cashman wanted to consider the defensive downgrade by losing him. Remember that Damon had lost favor toward the end of last year, and I had my doubts that he would come back the way he did this year.

I think the lucrative contract for Santana, on top of giving up two good young pitchers and a valuable player (short-term) felt like too much. But now, if you pose the equation as Santana for an injury prone number 3 or 2 level starter, a 5th starter that needs two years of seasoning, and a 4th outfielder with an atrocious bat -- wow, it looks awful to turn that one down.

2008-08-08 21:03:43
183.   Eirias
180 Yep. The next star for the Angels.
2008-08-08 21:04:50
184.   Jeb
181 "his age 28 season was his career best by far"...huh? you also wrote that he had a 96 OPS+ that season? What do you mean?
2008-08-08 21:06:58
185.   Travis08
181 OPS+ underrates Beltran, given his very good defense in CF, lack of DPs, and stolen base percentage.
2008-08-08 21:07:14
186.   Jeb
I gotta say that D-Raz is a nut filled turd and everything but at least he pitches to contact more than IPK. IPK pitches like he's scared.
2008-08-08 21:08:22
187.   monkeypants
184 Age 29 season, obviously.

Actually, both 2005 (unusually bad) and 2006 (unusually good) are kind of oddball seasons, compared to the rest of his career. I'm pretty confident, though, that Beltran's best seasons are behind him.

2008-08-08 21:08:53
188.   Just fair
Razmataz. What a country.
2008-08-08 21:09:19
189.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Texiera really looking for a 200million contract? can't see anyone offering that...he's also supposedly not a "team player", whatever that means...
2008-08-08 21:10:48
190.   Jeb
185 don't forget that Beltran is also a switch hitter and we all know from watching
Melky that ....oh never mind.

187 I don't know that it was obvious, I just wanted clarification on whether the age or the year was mistaken.

2008-08-08 21:12:57
191.   mehmattski
Sure, get a base hit now, when there aren't runners in scoring position. Jeter is such an un-clutch stat-padder.
2008-08-08 21:13:03
192.   Max
173 Actually, I agree with you...I'm speaking in a short-term, entitled tone of voice laced with a little sarcasm and frustration. :-)

But there is a part of me that feels that Santana-level pitching isn't easily acquired, let alone developed internally, so I think it's an interesting discussion.

2008-08-08 21:13:08
193.   Just fair
1-0 vs. some young pitcher. You gotta take a strike, Jetes.
2008-08-08 21:14:57
194.   monkeypants
182 Sure, if you rig the deck and pose the equation that way. but of course, we don't know if Hughes is an injury prone #2 or #3, and we don't know that IPK is a #5 after two years of seasoning. What if those same failures come out next season as you #1 and #3 starters?

And, even if all three do end up as you say, what happens when 30 y.o. Santana, after averaging 220 innings for the last fives seasons, has his arm fall off. i'd sure rather pay my #3 starter league minimum than shell out beaucoup millions to the next Barry Zito.

2008-08-08 21:15:20
195.   randym77
Yet another DP. :-P
2008-08-08 21:16:54
196.   Just fair
A double play (or 3) a day keeps the wild card chances away.
2008-08-08 21:17:11
197.   monkeypants
192 194 Aha, I see!
2008-08-08 21:17:49
198.   mehmattski
I think I just need one of those KoolTies.
2008-08-08 21:17:52
199.   pistolpete
Why don't I remember Hunter killing us this badly with the Twins...?
2008-08-08 21:19:19
200.   Jeb
I don't know if anyone's watching the Angels broadcast, but they're a couple of real assholes.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-08-08 21:19:26
201.   monkeypants
Hmm...maybe my Rasner-as-long-reliever plan needs to be rethought.
2008-08-08 21:19:46
202.   Just fair
Die in a fire, Kendrick.
Haven't seen that in a while, have ya?
2008-08-08 21:19:48
203.   randym77
Dang. Shouldn't Torii Hunter be washed up at age 33? He's killing us.
2008-08-08 21:21:46
204.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
200 Angels radio guys just said "and KENDRICK Keeps on Keepin' On!"..Curtis Mayfield reference, pretty cool..
2008-08-08 21:22:20
205.   pistolpete
203 Scioscia gave him some magic 'kill the Yankees' potion upon his signing with the Angels.
2008-08-08 21:24:06
206.   monkeypants
204 Sterling and Waldman are absolutely gushing over the Angels, especially Kendrick.
2008-08-08 21:25:00
207.   pistolpete
Done here. Night all. I'll see you after this series is over.
2008-08-08 21:27:11
208.   JL25and3
194 Barry Zito was never Johan Santana.
2008-08-08 21:27:25
209.   Max
I've been tough on Girardi recently, but in general, I really like the way he's handled our bullpen.

However, he seems to have a real fondness for Farnsworth level reclamation projects. I guess he did OK with Farns, but Bruney seems to be his new pet. I"m not sure I'm as fond of Bruney as he is.

2008-08-08 21:27:42
210.   Just fair
Cone says, "Cheese at the knees."
Indeed. More of that, Bruney. Please.
2008-08-08 21:27:42
211.   Just fair
Cone says, "Cheese at the knees."
Indeed. More of that, Bruney. Please.
2008-08-08 21:30:07
212.   randym77
Gawd, that was awful.
2008-08-08 21:32:08
213.   Just fair
Well there's always tomorrow. I mean, tonight. God bless. I hate the F##king Angels. Damnit.
2008-08-08 21:35:06
214.   monkeypants
208 Point taken. My main point was that we cannot meaningfully evaluate such a trade/non-trade for a few years, after which we have a better idea how the payers pan out. Santana does have a ton of miles on his arm, and some of his peripherals have been slipping in the last few years: Ks down this season, WHIP up ever so much the last 5 seasons, ERA+ declining overall since 2004.

It's not inconceivable that he declines steeply in the nest few years. If so, how does trading two pitching prospects (even if the end up only as serviceable #3-#5 guys) for a future #3 and six or seven years and 15 million/year (or whatever he's getting paid) sound?

2008-08-08 21:38:37
215.   Just fair
Well, it's good that Chuck Merriweather can now make his strike zone more ridiculous. Giambi got screwed and he wound up swinging at ball six.
2008-08-08 21:40:12
216.   monkeypants
In the words of Khan Noonien Singh, I grow fatigued. G'night all.
2008-08-08 21:41:45
217.   OldYanksFan
182 What if (and it's not unreasonable) Hughes is a #2 for 0.40m vs Santana, a #1, at $23m. That $23m buys CC and Hughes and change left over. That doesn't include IPK, Melky of the other prospect.

The truth is the Santana contract is risky by itself, without including any players in the deal.

So the equation is: Santana >? CC+Hughes+IPK+Melky+prospect

2008-08-08 21:41:46
218.   Max
From the time I saw this series on our calendar, I figured we would have to live with losing 2 of 3 at a minimum, especially with the pitchers we're throwing out there. I just really, really hope we don't get swept...that would be disastrous.
2008-08-08 21:42:42
219.   JL25and3
214 You're right, you can't evaluate it for a few years. But I think Hughes is more likely to disappoint than Santana, just because young pitchers are inherently more risky than proven ones in their prime.
2008-08-08 21:48:40
220.   OldYanksFan
219 You are absolutely correct, but you seem to be ignoring the money. If Hughes fails, he's a $0.4m loss. Santana is making $23m/yr. You have to consider what else you can get for $23m/yr... as well as keeping Phil, IPK, Melky and prospect.
2008-08-08 21:49:06
221.   monkeypants
219 OK, I'm not out yet.

True, but there is a very good chance that BOTH disappoint relative to expectations. Santana's is a long, expensive contract and those have not always worked out too well for the Yankees.

2008-08-08 21:49:42
222.   OldYanksFan
Melky is totally lost.
2008-08-08 21:51:17
223.   Max
217 My answer to your equation would be no -- Santana would be less than those options, especially if the prospect/pitchers could be spun off for other goods if they didn't quite fit or we didn't have the patience to groom them. And as you mention, it's financially more prudent to walk away from the likes of Santana when he's on the market at his peak or at the cusp of decline.

But the interesting part to me is whether we would ever have a Santana level talent with the approach we're taking, and does a Santana level pitcher make the difference in getting to the WS. I admit that when I pose these questions, I'm overrating Santana a bit. But I just wonder whether it sometimes pays to take a risk for that type of pitcher, especially since for all our talk of committing to prospects, the organization still seems to struggle with a long term approach.

2008-08-08 21:51:57
224.   Just fair
222 He knows where he is and it's not good.
2008-08-08 21:53:19
225.   monkeypants
And Jeter loses the game!
2008-08-08 21:53:47
226.   Just fair
That's a shame. On the bright side, losing the 1st game of a series makes the uphill climb to win or not get swept that much more interesting.
2008-08-08 21:54:01
227.   monkeypants
223 "But the interesting part to me is whether we would ever have a Santana level talent with the approach we're taking..."

I don't know, but Joba is turning out OK.

2008-08-08 22:03:14
228.   OldYanksFan
225 So, is this your new modus operandi for the rest of the season?
2008-08-08 22:03:46
229.   cult of basebaal
especially since for all our talk of committing to prospects, the organization still seems to struggle with a long term approach.


their long term approach seems perfectly fine to me. perhaps the problem is that you're trying to project their "long term approach" with short term analysis ...

2008-08-08 22:08:37
230.   Max
227 Yes, if he fulfills his promise and all the concerns about his latest injury/non-injury (not to mention anything else that might come up) turn out to be minor.

As 219 points out, young pitchers are quite risky. So are older pitchers in a declining phase, but I don't think a straight prospects-or-bust approach with the occasional shrewd, financially prudent free agent signing is as clean a blueprint for success as some claim.

The Red Sox overpaid for Dice-K and paid a pretty good price for Beckett. Both are good young pitchers, of course, but a good price had to be paid. I don't think the Yankees can always turn their back if a really quality talent is there to be had, even if the price looks daunting. Maybe CC is a better deal than Santana, but they will overpay for CC anyway.

This is all a long-winded way of saying that I was totally against the trade when it was first discussed, and looking back on it, probably still would be. But it's less clear cut to me now than it would have been before.

229 The long term approach being put forward by Cashman is a good one, and I'm on board with it. The point I'm making is that "short term thinking" still pervades parts of the organization culturally -- I'm not projecting that, it's a reality. Hopefully it starts to go away, but the Yankees haven't turned overnight into a "win later" organization.

2008-08-08 22:11:14
231.   cult of basebaal
230 in god we trust, all others pay cash ... i don't mean cashman; examples, please.

and hank doesn't count; for all his blather, he doesn't get to call the shots, for all his blather, the overall long term plan has been evident in the decision making this season ...

2008-08-08 22:22:35
232.   randym77
I don't think the Yankees should be a "win later" organization. They have the resources to do both: win now and win later. And their trades should be evaluated in that light.
2008-08-08 22:26:28
233.   randym77
IPK says he's not bothered because it was just "bloop hits." He says he's already gotten over it.

But he does look like he's about to cry.

2008-08-08 22:26:28
234.   OldYanksFan
230 Max, you are missing something here. CC will ONLY cost money, Dice-K ONLY cost money. Santana would have cost the type of prospect (Phil) that many teams go years without developing. Beckett cost Hanley. Hanley will have many more Winshares and be a much more valuable player then Beckett. The Sox are lucky that Florida FORCED them to take Lowell (salary dump) who has been instrumental to Boston's success. People think Beckett won it for Boston, but I would take a look at Manny's, Papi's and Lowell's stats, and well as a strong supporting cast, before giving Beckett too much credit.

There is a BIG, BIG differnce between expensive FA signings and expensive trades where you ALSO have to give away young talent. If Santana was a FA, my guess is the Yankees would have gotten him, even though there is still a high degree of risk in long term deals for pitchers.

2008-08-08 22:26:51
235.   OldYanksFan
230 Max, you are missing something here. CC will ONLY cost money, Dice-K ONLY cost money. Santana would have cost the type of prospect (Phil) that many teams go years without developing. Beckett cost Hanley. Hanley will have many more Winshares and be a much more valuable player then Beckett. The Sox are lucky that Florida FORCED them to take Lowell (salary dump) who has been instrumental to Boston's success. People think Beckett won it for Boston, but I would take a look at Manny's, Papi's and Lowell's stats, and well as a strong supporting cast, before giving Beckett too much credit.

There is a BIG, BIG differnce between expensive FA signings and expensive trades where you ALSO have to give away young talent. If Santana was a FA, my guess is the Yankees would have gotten him, even though there is still a high degree of risk in long term deals for pitchers.

2008-08-08 22:27:38
236.   OldYanksFan
Oops... sorry
2008-08-08 22:50:45
237.   monkeypants
228 Just trying to take the pressure off of some of the rest of you guys. Last night's commentary--and the prior few days' in fact--have really opened my eyes to just how hard some Banterers work at faulting Jeter for everything he does and does not do.

That doesn't seem like a fair distribution of burden. Like Harry Tuttle (or is it Buttle) says in Brazil: "We're all in it together!"

2008-08-08 22:51:55
238.   monkeypants
235 TO be fair, CC would probably cost money and draft picks. Dice-K only cost money.
2008-08-08 22:56:57
239.   monkeypants
230 OK, but you are wondering (and I know, were all just bantering here) aloud about whether the Yankees' "approach" (my new favorite word) will ever work, when the "approach" has really only ben in place for about one year.

Criminy, pitchers like Santana, and Liriano for that matter, didn't just fall from the sky. It too years to develop him. Yes, developing young pitchers is risky--that's why it's a good idea to try to keep as many good prospects as possible. Let's not give up on that "approach" at the first possible deal that comes along. If Joba AND Hughes AND Kennedy AND Horne are all busts three years down the line, then I'll worry if the "approach" needs to be modified.

2008-08-08 23:07:09
240.   monkeypants
230 Part II:

"But it's less clear cut to me now than it would have been before."

That's where you and I differ, I guess. Evaluation of this trade/non-trade, for me, can never be more or less clear until a few years have passed. We need at least to wait until after the off season to see what Cashman does with the money he is not using to pay Santana. To express creeping doubt already after only a few months betrays a fundamentally short term perspective that is hard to apply to a decision aimed very much at long term results (in either case: picking up Santana for six or seven years, or keeping prospects).

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