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Toronto Blue Jays
2007-08-06 09:38
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

By sweeping the Royals over the weekend, the Yankees have compensated for their series loss in Baltimore the previous weekend going 4-2 in those two series combined (not counting the suspended game win in Baltimore). They're thus back on task having gone 18-7 (.720) since the All-Star break. Today they're in Toronto for a three game series that will complete the cupcake portion of their schedule.

The Yanks took three of four from the Blue Jays at the Stadium in mid-July. Since then the Yanks have gone 12-5 and the Blue Jays have gone 10-5, the latter putting together an eight-game winning streak at their home park in Toronto. Of course, the Jays are still just one game over .500, but just as they were in mid-July, Toronto remains the best team the Yankees have had to face during this easy part of their schedule.

The Jays' roster looks much the same as it did when these teams last met, with the notable exceptoin of the Toronto bench, which has seen as much turnover as the Yankee bench that has since added Jose Molina, Shelley Duncan, and Wilson Betemit. For their part, the Blue Jays released backup catcher Jason Phillips, replacing him with minor leaguer Curtis Thigpen, and designated infielders Royce Clayton and Howie "Ha!" Clark for assignment, replacing them with Hector Luna, who was claimed off waivers from the Indians, and switch-hitter Ray Olmedo.

The Yankees are making some moves of their own, having designated Mike Myers for assignment after yesterday's game and flying Jason Giambi to Toronto to join the team. No word yet on who will replace Myers in the pen or when exactly Giambi will be activated or at whose expense.

Today, the Yanks and Jays play an afternoon game on Simcoe Day with Andy Pettitte taking on former Devil Rays' bat boy Jesse Litsch. Litsch held the Rays scoreless through 6 2/3 in his last outing and has a 1.71 ERA over his last five starts. When he faced the Yankees six starts ago, however, he didn't make it out of the first inning, giving up five runs on four hits beginning with a leadoff home run by Johnny Damon, and two walks while retiring just two of the eight men he faced.

Comments (329)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-08-06 09:42:35
1.   nawlins yankee
Line-up (via Gameday)

Damon
Jeter
Abreu
Rodriguez
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Phillips
Cabrera

2007-08-06 09:58:15
2.   Shaun P
Pete Abe's update says its Jim Brower
2007-08-06 10:09:18
3.   Count Zero
2 Not sure I get that -- I can only assume they felt like they needed one more arm for today and since Joba wasn't available to pitch until tomorrow...

Still...seems a bit crazy since they would have to DFA Brower to send him back down, right?

2007-08-06 10:11:17
4.   mehmattski
3 Maybe Karstens goes down when Joba comes up. Still, I don't understand Brower and not Edwar, unless Cash is trying to protect Edwar from a Torre-induced Sittingonthebenchitis.
2007-08-06 10:15:08
5.   SF Yanks
Bad Bobby.
2007-08-06 10:16:20
6.   Shaun P
Pete goes on to say:

"Jim Brower is here, Joe Torre said, because he can throw two or three days in a row and go multiple innings. Joba Chamberlain has today off. Torre said he didn't know whether his next appearance would be for Scranton or the Yankees."

We all know he wouldn't use Edwar, so that makes sense.

3 Not really, Brower is in his mid-30s and doesn't have the greatest major league track record. He's pitched well enough this year, so maybe the DFA process gets him on someone's radar and he gets a major league job; at worst he goes back to SWB. His MiLB.com page suggests he was in the independent leagues earlier in the year, so I'm sure he's happy just to have a job.

2007-08-06 10:18:46
7.   SF Yanks
I really like looking under "Upcoming Schedule" on the right side-bar and seeing our pitching staff relatively hole-less.

Pettitte
Clemens
Wang
Hughes
Mussina
Pettitte

2007-08-06 10:18:51
8.   Shaun P
BTW Cliff, nice job on removing Myers from the roster sidebar already! FYI, Alberto Gonzalez is back with SWB . . . I wonder if Basak gets DFA'd to make room for Giambi on the 40-man? He seems really redundant between Betemit, Cairo, and Gonzalez.
2007-08-06 10:22:17
9.   RIYank
Nice, Andy.
2007-08-06 10:23:45
10.   NJYankee41
8 Basak, Reese, Beam and to a lesser extend KT seem pretty dispensable.
2007-08-06 10:24:18
11.   RIYank
Oooooooh.

HA?!?!?!

2007-08-06 10:25:20
12.   mehmattski
Well then. That was obvious intent. Where was that ump from the White Sox series? That guy would have thrown Listch out right away...
2007-08-06 10:26:54
13.   RIYank
Ha.
(No exclamation mark for the walk.)
2007-08-06 10:28:09
14.   monkeypants
The Jays TV announcers are all gushing that Listch 'sent the message' because A-Rod 'earned it.' Whatever one thinks about 'Ha', does throwing inside but not hitting a batter send any sort of message, besides ball one?

A-Rod walked, making the first pitch all the sillier.

2007-08-06 10:28:45
15.   mehmattski
A-Rod needs to run here.
2007-08-06 10:29:26
16.   JL25and3
10 Given that Betemit and Duncan can both play corner outfield if necessary, KT's only function would be as the third center fielder and pinch runner. I'd say he's pretty expendable.
2007-08-06 10:31:07
17.   NJYankee41
16 Absolutely. I was just putting him in the context of the other 3.
2007-08-06 10:33:23
18.   NJYankee41
Jesse Litsch could make a good Joker for the next Batman movie. Move over Joe Randa and Jack Nicholson.
2007-08-06 10:33:47
19.   SF Yanks
I really despise this pitcher right now. He's ugly, he thinks he tough, he thinks he's good, and I hope he gets ROCKED!!! I cringe everytime I look at his disturbing face.
2007-08-06 10:33:53
20.   monkeypants
Tight strike zone this inning.
2007-08-06 10:33:59
21.   RIYank
Two walks is a good punishment. Especially if Robbie goes yard.
2007-08-06 10:35:35
22.   SF Yanks
21 Not nearly enough.
2007-08-06 10:36:07
23.   Shaun P
21 Still a good punishment, even though Robbie K'd. I wonder if SkyDome (I dislike its current corporate name) is a QuesTec park?
2007-08-06 10:36:12
24.   Marcus
18 I was thinking Opie.
2007-08-06 10:37:34
25.   RIYank
Oh, Andy, nice try. Now that would have been retaliation.

39 pitches, pretty good considering we only have one hit.

2007-08-06 10:37:44
26.   NJYankee41
24 I can see that. I was just going by his goofy smile on Gameday.
2007-08-06 10:37:45
27.   Shaun P
Caught on the warning track?
2007-08-06 10:38:26
28.   NJYankee41
How close was that ball to the wall?
2007-08-06 10:40:39
29.   Alex Belth
Andy's shot was close, but not TOO close to the wall. The pitch to A Rod was behind the hitter.
2007-08-06 10:41:01
30.   monkeypants
23 That's funny, you don't like the corporate name even though it's named after Ted Roger's--the company's founder and largest shareholder (and so the largest share owner of the Jays).

Sorta like Wrigley Field.

2007-08-06 10:42:19
31.   RIYank
Yeep.
Way to make it look easy, JD.
2007-08-06 10:44:07
32.   Fritsthestud
why didn't they turn the DP there?
2007-08-06 10:45:41
33.   RIYank
32 Hill is too fast. No throw.

Oh, come on, Andy, don't walk the weak rookie. Control problems?

2007-08-06 10:46:08
34.   mehmattski
32 It took A-Rod about a second too long to get rid of the ball (which was not hit hard), and Thigpen was pretty quick down the line.
2007-08-06 10:47:27
35.   RIYank
34 It would be pretty funny if Thigpen were actually quick down the line. ;-)
2007-08-06 10:47:38
36.   mehmattski
33 Right. Hill, not Thigpen. Yeah Andy has been missing his spots so far, the strikeouts were because of free-swinging and not pinpoint location.
2007-08-06 10:48:42
37.   pistolpete
Andy seems to get into this predicament at least 2-3 times a game now. 2 outs, 2 men on. Hard to explain...
2007-08-06 10:48:43
38.   Fritsthestud
33 and 34 thanks, I'm following on the internet at work.
2007-08-06 10:48:55
39.   JL25and3
24 Here's another take: http://tinyurl.com/2aa6bv
2007-08-06 10:50:08
40.   RIYank
I hate the idea of making your #9 a kind of 'secondary lead-off man', but in this case I'll make an exception!
2007-08-06 10:50:23
41.   mehmattski
The Melkman delivers!
2007-08-06 10:50:56
42.   NJYankee41
39 For some irrational reason, I was terrified of Howdy Doody as a youngster.
2007-08-06 10:51:01
43.   RIYank
37 He's been saying that at the beginning of his games, he feels "too strong". Could that have anything to do with it?
2007-08-06 10:51:23
44.   Fritsthestud
Hail yeah, Melk Man brings home the Melk!
2007-08-06 10:51:47
45.   RIYank
There's yer lead, Andrew.
2007-08-06 10:52:09
46.   OldYanksFan
Ha! Makes the Un-Murcer mistake!
2007-08-06 10:52:33
47.   pistolpete
44 Thanks, John. ;-)
2007-08-06 10:53:30
48.   JohnnyC
37 Andy has always pitched like this. His WHIP has never been his strong suit. But, then again, that's why he has BFOG+.
2007-08-06 10:53:43
49.   mehmattski
Melky loses some style points for that slide. An unsuccessful pop-up slide attempt ended with Melky on his butt facing up the third baseline.
2007-08-06 10:53:50
50.   RIYank
Need that BB here, AB.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-08-06 10:54:49
51.   Shaun P
30 Yeah, I know, I'm weird like that. The only corporate name I've ever liked for a baseball stadium was "Pac Bell Park" - rolled off the tongue and the place is on the Pacific at least.

I also really liked the name "SkyDome". =)

2007-08-06 10:56:08
52.   RIYank
Damn. We'll need a good long inning next inning. I want Litsch to suffer.
2007-08-06 10:58:41
53.   mehmattski
Hmm, Litsch did the same combo for Posada, Cano, and now Abreu- slider on the inside corner, followed by the sinker/2-seamer down- Abreu and Cano swung and missed while Posada took the 2-seamer for ball four. Interesting.
2007-08-06 11:01:37
54.   pistolpete
GameCast is stuck - what's going on with the game?
2007-08-06 11:02:19
55.   RIYank
Hm. Andy had better find the zone, or we'll see Brower today.
2007-08-06 11:02:21
56.   JohnnyC
53Hope Kevin Long is taking notes. Or somebody in that dugout.
2007-08-06 11:02:25
57.   mehmattski
Re: Singleton and Kay talking about how the Blue Jays coaches call John McDonald "by far the best defensive SS in the AL"...

McDonald doesn't qualify for THT's Zone Rating, but if he did, he would be in first in the AL with an .869 rate, ahead of Miguel Tejada (.860).

2007-08-06 11:02:58
58.   RIYank
54 Andy got the first guy on six pitches, then walked Reed Johnson.
2007-08-06 11:03:35
59.   RIYank
And Rios singles. Melky nice play to keep Johnson on second.
2007-08-06 11:03:51
60.   mehmattski
54 Alex Rios just singled with 1 out, Reed Johnson to second.
2007-08-06 11:04:24
61.   RIYank
That's what we needed. Fly out to Damon. Two down, Frank Thomas steps in.
2007-08-06 11:04:45
62.   RIYank
Thomas blasts the first pitch, two run double.
2007-08-06 11:05:15
63.   JohnnyC
Thomas you knew would be a tough get from Andy.
2007-08-06 11:05:16
64.   monkeypants
Remind me again, HOW MANY runs does Damon save us in LF?
2007-08-06 11:05:25
65.   RIYank
Also, not a very good play by Damon. Maybe catchable by a good fielder.
2007-08-06 11:05:38
66.   mehmattski
Thomas hits a deep ball to left field, just out of the reach of the leaping Damon. Rios and Johnson both score.

Runner on second, two outs, 2-1 Jays.

2007-08-06 11:05:55
67.   Fritsthestud
Damn it Pettite.
2007-08-06 11:06:03
68.   51cq24
65 definitely catchable
2007-08-06 11:06:08
69.   RIYank
64 Yeah. Crud.
Badly timed jump, at least.
2007-08-06 11:06:22
70.   JohnnyC
Damon seems to get hurt in Toronto rather regularly.
2007-08-06 11:06:24
71.   yankz
Is it just me or did Melky's throw go about 20 feet?
2007-08-06 11:06:36
72.   OldYanksFan
JD might have had that.
2007-08-06 11:07:25
73.   mehmattski
64 FWIW, Hideki Matsui leads the major leagues in ZR for left fielders, by a wide margin. Johnny Damon, in a limited sample, is about average in ZR.
2007-08-06 11:08:25
74.   JL25and3
51 I don't think the problem with Rogers Centre is that it's corporate, just that it's...blah. SkyDome was basically a market-research name to begin with, but at least it had a little zip to it.

At that, it would have been better if they'd chosen Stadium or Field instead of Centre. (Or is that "Stadimu or Fiedl instead of Center?")

But monkeypants is right; this one is like Jacobs or Turner. It's not Insert This Year's Corporate Sponsor Field.

2007-08-06 11:08:30
75.   RIYank
71 Which throw?
72 Might have, but didn't.
2007-08-06 11:09:37
76.   RIYank
Not bad. Andy got ahead of him 0-2, Glaus works it full, but Andy nails him with the sinker.

This had better be one of those games where Pettitte has a bad inning but then settles down.

2007-08-06 11:09:38
77.   JL25and3
71 I didn't see this one - I'm at work - but Saturday Melky threw an 11-hopper to second base. Don't know what's up with that.
2007-08-06 11:10:06
78.   pistolpete
Did we get out of it yet?
2007-08-06 11:11:40
79.   yankz
75 The relay in to Jeter after Damon missed the flyball. My mlb.tv is a little unclear today for some reason, so I'm not positive, but I thought I saw Jeter have to bend over and field it like a grounder.
2007-08-06 11:12:27
80.   RIYank
79 Oh. No idea. But he did hold Reed Johnson at second on the single. (Not that it mattered in the end.)
2007-08-06 11:13:10
81.   RIYank
Throw at that, Blitsch.

(A-Rod singles.)

2007-08-06 11:13:45
82.   Fritsthestud
Haha Litsch bitch! Take that from A-Rod!
2007-08-06 11:15:05
83.   RIYank
So, uh, did Myers pass through waivers, or not?
2007-08-06 11:15:44
84.   RIYank
Matsui lines out to right.
One out, A-Rod on first.
2007-08-06 11:17:55
85.   RIYank
Damn. Easy GIDP.
They were on the verge of making Litsch suffer (3-0 count to Posada), but they let him off the hook.
2007-08-06 11:18:38
86.   Fritsthestud
Litsch is on pace for 6+ now. Not good.
2007-08-06 11:19:49
87.   Fritsthestud
Report from 880 AM NYC - they are probably NOT going to send Duncan down for Giambi since Torre likes Duncan. So I suppose we're looking at Cairo moving?
2007-08-06 11:23:58
88.   pistolpete
87 WHAT?! Torre likes a rookie?!!!!
2007-08-06 11:24:06
89.   51cq24
is there any reason to keep cairo?
2007-08-06 11:24:53
90.   nawlins yankee
Easy inning. Runs please?
2007-08-06 11:26:57
91.   RIYank
Andy really needed that. Now I feel like we're in the game again.

Patience, Rob....

2007-08-06 11:27:06
92.   yankz
Whoa- I had no idea Torre was going to pass Casey this year.
2007-08-06 11:27:57
93.   RIYank
89 Only BFoG.

Rob, come on, dude. Oh well.

Patience, Andy...

2007-08-06 11:28:22
94.   OldYanksFan
Not looking good....
2007-08-06 11:29:10
95.   RIYank
Jeez.
Andy drills it right at Wells.

I feel shaky again.

Bullpen, bullpen, bullpen! Make Litsch work!

There ya go, Melk! Single.

2007-08-06 11:29:28
96.   RIYank
Time for Damon to turn it on.
2007-08-06 11:30:35
97.   51cq24
melky is good.

i don't think glavine is a hall of famer no matter how many wins he gets. i wouldn't even put him in the top 10 pitchers of his time.

2007-08-06 11:31:23
98.   RIYank
Damon singles! Looked like a double, but Reed Johnson was in a good spot.
2007-08-06 11:32:24
99.   RIYank
Screw. Jeter grounds on on the first pitch.

We'll have to get Litsch out of there next inning. The sixth will be a big one...

2007-08-06 11:33:30
100.   RIYank
Seven base runners through the fifth inning, including a triple, and one run to show for it. I guess we've gotten spoiled.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-08-06 11:35:05
101.   nawlins yankee
Guess not..Cano-don't-cha-know K's for the second time, Andy lines out to center for the second time, Leche gets a hit for the second time, and after Damon singles, Jeter ends the inning with a ground-out. Litsch at 82 pitches though.
2007-08-06 11:35:49
102.   OldYanksFan
73 Now how is that possible? I like and believe stats are important, but I can agree with that conclusion.
2007-08-06 11:36:04
103.   RIYank
Uh oh. (Lead-off double.)
2007-08-06 11:39:58
104.   OldYanksFan
This is a perception thing but...
It seems to me for the last 2 weeks, Jeter has been coming up very small. I know his BA has dropped. Does he have any RBI? I can't remember him getting a needed hit in a while.
2007-08-06 11:40:00
105.   RIYank
Reed Johnson was bunting, but fouled one and missed one. Behind 1-2 he woked a walk. Two on, nobody out. Trouble: Rios, Wells, Thomas, Glaus...
2007-08-06 11:42:07
106.   RIYank
104 Only 3 rbi in the last 14 days. But he's hitting well in general during that period.

Argh. Successful double steal. 2nd and 3rd with nobody out...

2007-08-06 11:42:25
107.   pistolpete
Cripes - I hate playing teams who have nothing to lose this time of year....
2007-08-06 11:44:06
108.   51cq24
107 do you prefer playing good teams?
2007-08-06 11:44:08
109.   RIYank
Huge K for Pettitte!

Shoot, I have to actually do something for work now.
Hold the fort, Banterers, I feel a big inning coming soon if Andy gets out of this jam.

2007-08-06 11:44:24
110.   nawlins yankee
There's one. Two more of those would be dandy, Andy.
2007-08-06 11:45:09
111.   pistolpete
108 I like playing teams who've given up all hope and play like it. ;-)
2007-08-06 11:45:30
112.   RIYank
ARGH.
Infield back, but infield hit off the glove of a diving A-Rod. Run scores. Carp.

But really, I'm leaving. Really!

2007-08-06 11:47:34
113.   monkeypants
104 I agree with your perception. He looks a little slow and tired. Pete Abe reported the other day that he is pretty banged up. He seems to be the last person to get an off day, too.
2007-08-06 11:49:03
114.   JL25and3
97 Who are the ten ahead of him? Relievers should probably be kept separate from starters, because they're really considered separately for the Hall.

Clemens, Maddux, Martinez. Santana, if you consider him the same era. Guys like Halliday have to do a lot more before I'd consider them to have better careers than Glavine. And...who?

2007-08-06 11:51:50
115.   ny2
113 I agree ... plus he just got hit again yesterday on the hand or wrist
2007-08-06 11:52:30
116.   nawlins yankee
114 I tend to think that Glavine is a beneficiary of the era he pitched in. Wins, as we know, is a misleading stat. Glavine's 4.31 career era will rank fairly low compared to most HOF starters.
2007-08-06 11:53:24
117.   yankz
Clutch
2007-08-06 11:53:44
118.   51cq24
nice pitch. that could have been a lot worse.
2007-08-06 11:54:12
119.   Shaun P
114 Johnson, and maybe Smoltz. Smoltz vs Glavine is something of a peak (Smoltz) vs longevity (Glavine) argument, but both are quite good. Even if you went out on a limb and included (shudder) Schilling, Moose (this is OK), and (GRRR) Kevin Brown - that's still just 9 (not counting Santana).
2007-08-06 11:55:06
120.   nawlins yankee
Good job by Andy minimizing the damage. Pitch count up to 96 however. Joba, Joba, where art though Joba?
2007-08-06 11:55:47
121.   yankz
114 Randy Johnson is the other one I can think of. You might be able to make a case for John Smoltz, but I doubt it. Moose?

What are the criteria? Stuff wise, there are several guys in front of him. Just starters, he's in the top 10. If you expand it to include closers, then Smoltz and Rivera are probably ahead as well.

2007-08-06 11:56:07
122.   yankz
119 Whoa- weird.
2007-08-06 11:56:09
123.   NJYankee41
116 His career ERA is 3.49.
2007-08-06 12:01:00
124.   51cq24
114 i guess it really depends on how you define the best pitchers. but let's say you need to win a game. who are the pitchers you'd least like to be facing?
pedro, clemens, maddux, smoltz, randy, (schilling), santana (yeah not really same time period but close enough), cone?, wells?, mussina?, kevin brown?

i don't think all these pitchers are hall of famers. but even the guys with question marks i'd take in big games over glavine, at the peaks of their respective careers. a hall of famer should be someone who intimidates you. for a very small example, when the braves took a 5-1 lead in game 3 of the 99 world series, i thought "well it's only glavine." admittedly, part of that is that in comparison to the 2 clear hofers on his team i'd prefer him. but i never thought "oh no we have to face glavine now," even down 2-0 in 96. shouldn't a hall of famer be scary?

2007-08-06 12:03:18
125.   nawlins yankee
123 My mistake..it seemed off when I glanced at the number. He was pretty sick in those early 90's heyday years for the Braves.
2007-08-06 12:04:21
126.   pistolpete
Matsui with the non-DP!
2007-08-06 12:04:51
127.   Shaun P
116 True, wins are overrated, but he has pitched in a pretty good offensive era. People seem to be willing to give Jack Morris credit for that (if you want to talk about a guy who doesn't belong in the Hall). Glavine does have an ERA+ of 119, not great but not horrible.

By WARP3, Glavine has 133.2 for his career. By Jay Jaffe's JAWS (from December 2005):

"Glavine: 124.9/61.3/93.1, a no-brainer in his favor. The two pitchers he falls between right now are Fergie Jenkins and Nolan Ryan."

2007-08-06 12:05:39
128.   OldYanksFan
Both Yahoo and ESPN have Glavin with a career ERA as 3.49 (as 123 says) with a BAA of .256 and a WHIP of 1.31. These are very good numbers, although his entire career has been in the NL. As these numbers 'top 10'? HOF?
2007-08-06 12:06:30
129.   OldYanksFan
Has anyone noticed JT has been managing a bit better of late? Tuning up for the PS run?
Comments?
2007-08-06 12:06:45
130.   51cq24
that's a nice pitch
2007-08-06 12:07:21
131.   OldYanksFan
Crap!
Time to lower the ax!
2007-08-06 12:08:41
132.   51cq24
beautiful piece of hitting
2007-08-06 12:08:41
133.   nawlins yankee
129 True, but his job has gotten a bit easier over the last month.
2007-08-06 12:08:48
134.   Shaun P
124 Not necessarily. Sutton wasn't a scary pitcher. I can't imagine that Fergie Jenkins was a scary pitcher. And Glavine did win the deciding game of the '95 Serious.

Robbie!!!

2007-08-06 12:08:50
135.   pistolpete
CANOE!
2007-08-06 12:08:57
136.   monkeypants
116 123 You can look at career leaders for ERA+ on baseball-reference. Glavine's career ERA+ is 119, good for tied at 120th all time. On the surface that's not that impressive, until you consider that the list includes a bunch of relievers. Also, it ranks higher than other HOF starters including Wrren Spahn (118), Gaylord Perry (117) and Steve Carlton (115).

I'm pretty sure those guys belong in the Hall (maybe not Perry), and if so, I'm not sure how Glavine doesn't belong.

2007-08-06 12:09:14
137.   OldYanksFan
Robbie is turning into a monster.
Must be eating Cheerios frosted with HGH.
2007-08-06 12:09:17
138.   yankz
127 Plus, you can't get to 300 wins unless you've been a good pitcher.

124 That's your HOF criteria? How much a guy scares you?

Cano is amazing.

2007-08-06 12:10:10
139.   tommyl
Mmmm...I love Robbie doing his impression of well Roy Hobbs. He always seems to get a hit now.
2007-08-06 12:14:11
140.   tommyl
Ok, I think we should officially start calling them the C&C boys.
2007-08-06 12:15:04
141.   nawlins yankee
Leche with another hit, this time scoring his partner-in-crime. The kids are pretty good.
2007-08-06 12:15:07
142.   51cq24
136 i never saw those guys pitch so i can't be pretty sure they belong anywhere. and i don't think that comparing numbers to other hall of famers' numbers is definitive.

138 there's no question he's been a good pitcher. but does that make him an automatic hall of famer? my criteria is not how much a guy scares you, and i never said it was. but don't you think a hall of famer should be someone you dread facing in a game that you need to win, on top of the numbers? i don't think that numbers alone can be the criteria, otherwise you'd just be compiling and trying to get milestones. in my opinion, glavine is a great pitcher but not one of the very best all time.

2007-08-06 12:15:07
143.   NJYankee41
140 I like the idea, it just doesn't roll off the tongue the same.
2007-08-06 12:15:41
144.   OldYanksFan
With the way Betemin has been playing, can ARod play SS and Betemin play 3rd for 2 games? Jeter needs to sit a few games. Why abuse him? When he looks tired, my guess he is tired.
2007-08-06 12:15:42
145.   rconn23
Man, I love Melky. He and Cano both hit to all fields. No reason to go after some high priced overhyped CF in the offseason.
2007-08-06 12:17:45
146.   OldYanksFan
Those hits by Cano and Melky are the difference between the new 'winning' Yankees and the team earlier this year, that was not pushing important runs across.

That was a really good inning.

2007-08-06 12:18:30
147.   tommyl
143 I'm still hoping that Duncan stays up, and we find another masher that has a D name. Then I can call them Dungeons and Dragons.
2007-08-06 12:19:02
148.   tommyl
146 Too bad Melky won't be part of the new "old" team about to retake the field.
2007-08-06 12:19:20
149.   OldYanksFan
138 Agreed. Maddux couldn't scare Winnie the Pooh, but he sure can pitch. Yes, RJ scares batters, but we shouldn't hold his looks against him. HA!
2007-08-06 12:22:38
150.   pistolpete
148 Melky's in CF right now, no?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-08-06 12:23:30
151.   OldYanksFan
142 Between lowering the mound, smaller parks and bigger batters, there are fewer dominating pitchers then back pre 80's. We have Pedro, RJ and a few other, and while Glavine is not dominating, he is one of the better pitchers of the era.

With so many hitters getting 500 HRs, that bar might need to be raised. With pitching, compared to pre 1980, the bar might need to be lowered (like the mound)?

2007-08-06 12:23:44
152.   51cq24
what??? he's going to this new guy with the game on the line??
2007-08-06 12:23:59
153.   NJYankee41
142 But Glavine has had many very good seasons and a couple of CY awards. Long term consistancy has to be considered because by your logic JR Richard or Sam McDowell would be considered better pitchers.
2007-08-06 12:24:07
154.   monkeypants
142 The only way to dtermine if a pitcher is one of the best of all time is to compare their numbers, in as sophisticated way as possible, adjusted for their relatives eras. On those grounds, it seems pretty hard not to include Glavine in the HOF.
2007-08-06 12:24:28
155.   JohnnyC
I hate McDonald. Only plays this well against the Yankees. His father gave him a lot of grief over that incident when he was with the Indians when he steamrolled Jeter trying to turn a DP. Something like play hard but not dirty, son.
2007-08-06 12:24:43
156.   pistolpete
Here we go again. See 37
2007-08-06 12:26:53
157.   OldYanksFan
A very high leverage situation. What if you bring in Mo for one out here and then for the 7th? Could Viz and Co. hold down the 8th and 9th?

It would be pretty radical. No managers do this. But these 2 runs, with us being the visiting team, are very big.

2007-08-06 12:27:01
158.   JL25and3
124 The "big game" argument is something, but hardly the top criterion. Without checking all the stats, I'd put Glavine about even with Mussina and Smoltz, ahead of Cone, Wells, Brown or Schilling. (And to those who pointed out that I missed RJ: Duh. Thanks.)
2007-08-06 12:27:42
159.   Shaun P
142 "but don't you think a hall of famer should be someone you dread facing in a game that you need to win, on top of the numbers?"

No, because not every team "dreads facing" every pitcher all the time. I remember an interview Whitey Ford gave where he said how much he hated facing a team, don't remember which one (Cleveland maybe?) for a few years because they absolutely owned him.

And how do you accurately compare "dread"? For example, would Derek Jeter ever admit to dreading facing anyone?

"i don't think that numbers alone can be the criteria, otherwise you'd just be compiling and trying to get milestones."

Numbers aren't the only criteria, otherwise Bert Blyleven would be a shoo-in right now, and Rock Raines would go in first ballot next year, and Alan Trammell would already have his plaque. Outside stuff (ASG appearances, major awards, performance of team, etc.) factor in all the time.

But the numbers should be the primary consideration, as they are the record of what happened on the field.

2007-08-06 12:27:50
160.   pistolpete
Joe puts Brower in NOW?
2007-08-06 12:27:54
161.   mehmattski
151 I wonder if, from 1967-1971, if anyone talked about how the 500 HR plateau was "cheapened," with so many people joining the 500 club. Seven hitters hit their 500th in that span, most for any 5 year period.
2007-08-06 12:28:55
162.   monkeypants
It may or may not be crazy to bring in Brower, but it is certainly inconsistent. When Edwar was called up, he was buried, with Torre using the excuse that they had to wait until the right opportunity to ease him in. He has done the same with other call-ups.

But here, we get Brower.

Weird.

2007-08-06 12:29:34
163.   OldYanksFan
Bowers? Who's managing the Yankees today?
Man... that was close. I'll bet Torre had his hands over his eyes.
2007-08-06 12:30:08
164.   nawlins yankee
Mediocre outing for Petitte ends with him sandwiching two K's around a single by Thigpen, followed by a walk to the number 9 hitter, McDonald. Torre brings in not-Joba, who gets Reed Johnson to line-out right to A-Rod.
2007-08-06 12:30:40
165.   Shaun P
152 160 Of course - he's a VETERAN. He's done this before. Torre lets those guys pitch in tight situations.

Now, Edwar, well, he's never faced big leaguers before, you see, and so its best to ease him in in a low-leverage situation. Don't want to scare the kid.

2007-08-06 12:30:49
166.   51cq24
154 ok, but again i have no idea how good the pitchers from before my time actually were. i do know a lot about how good the pitchers of this generation are. and i personally would not include glavine in a list of the absolute best of the last 15-20 years.

but i really don't care enough to keep arguing about it. i just don't think he's a hall of fame pitcher if a hall of fame pitcher is someone you never want to face with your season on the line.

2007-08-06 12:31:02
167.   OldYanksFan
162 Maybe Torre has had an epiphany? A religious experience? He has managed differently the last 2 weeks... and for the better.
2007-08-06 12:32:09
168.   OldYanksFan
Some insurance runs please....
2007-08-06 12:32:20
169.   Shaun P
161 I'll bet the writers who were still around from covering the game in the 20s and 30s did, to defend the men of their era.
2007-08-06 12:32:54
170.   zerbert
I have a theory here.
Joe has been getting flak from the upper brass for not using young relievers he is given - like Edwar. So Joe says OK, I'll show you guys what happens, I'm throwing Brower in to the fire the first chance he gets. If he doesn't succeed he was just follwing orders
2007-08-06 12:33:20
171.   OldYanksFan
His bat is dragging....
2007-08-06 12:36:31
172.   yankz
170 I thought that too, but I can never envision Joe risking a game during a playoff race just to spite the FO.
2007-08-06 12:36:34
173.   JL25and3
142 First of all, you can't just think of the Hall of Fame as being for Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson; it's for Gaylor dPerry and Phil Niekro, too. That's not to say that the standard should be that of the worst Hall of Famer, just that it's not only for the super-elite. Players that are merely excellent, consistently and for a long time, are also legitimate Hall of Famers.

Your system overvalues Stuff and undervalues Getting Guys Out. You basically have to have a blazing fastball and a knee-buckling curve to qualify.

2007-08-06 12:37:38
174.   Fritsthestud
How hard was the ball hit against Brower?
2007-08-06 12:39:00
175.   NJYankee41
166 And in his prime I doubt too many teams did want to face him with the season on the line.
2007-08-06 12:39:17
176.   JL25and3
166 "i just don't think he's a hall of fame pitcher if a hall of fame pitcher is someone you never want to face with your season on the line."

In the last ten years or so, the pitcher I least wanted to face the Yankees with the season on the line might have been Frank Castillo.

2007-08-06 12:43:02
177.   pistolpete
Aha, Vizcaino - the old Joe re-appears.
2007-08-06 12:43:09
178.   yankz
176 Adam Loewen.

I think a new BB record was set today: Most responses to one comment (142)

2007-08-06 12:43:51
179.   nawlins yankee
Rios with a lead-off single. Not-Joba gives up two hard-hit balls in his first appearance, although stuff looked decent.
2007-08-06 12:43:59
180.   Yankees Brasil
Why not start the inning with Vizcaino pitching?
2007-08-06 12:44:24
181.   OldYanksFan
Not very impressive.
2007-08-06 12:44:59
182.   Shaun P
177 Must . . . follow . . . formula. Gator . . . get . . . Farnsworth . . . ready . . . for . . . the . . . 8th . . .

I really hope I'm wrong.

2007-08-06 12:46:23
183.   51cq24
ok i'll say one last thing about this. i'm not saying that numbers shouldn't count. obviously they should. we shouldn't just vote on what player hurt our team the most. but i think the hall of fame should be for the consistently best players, not just the consistently good ones. and i just don't think glavine has been one of the very best.
2007-08-06 12:46:25
184.   Shaun P
181 Brower? Career ERA of 4.62 in 570 IP - that's about right.
2007-08-06 12:48:38
185.   pistolpete
182 We need every single game right now. Joe's insane if he puts KK into the 8th if we're still only up by 2 runs.
2007-08-06 12:49:12
186.   51cq24
very nice
2007-08-06 12:50:36
187.   nawlins yankee
Viz cleans up the lead-off single in 9 pitches. On to the eight. Insurance please?
2007-08-06 12:50:41
188.   zerbert
Does anyone understand why the Yankees brought up Brower?
2007-08-06 12:51:15
189.   RIYank
Ha!
Checking back in.
I take it Brower was adequate, but not very encouraging. But Vizzie has really turned the corner, very good performance.

I don't believe we'll see Kyle today. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I believe the truth is seeping into Torre.

2007-08-06 12:51:56
190.   51cq24
188 from yankee notes on yankees.com:

Torre said the Yankees picked Brower over other candidates, such as 21-year-old prospect Joba Chamberlain, because of his versatility.

"The experience that Brower has," Torre explained. "After just talking to him, the fact that he can pitch multiple innings, he can pitch three days in a row. He can do a lot of things for us."

so no, not really.

2007-08-06 12:52:45
191.   RIYank
188 Well, there are two questions:
1. Why not Joba?

The answer to that may be that Joba just pitched and wouldn't be available today anyway.

2. Why not just keep Myers on board if you're not going to bring up Joba?

Don't know.

2007-08-06 12:53:08
192.   Shaun P
185 Insane - in·sane [in-seyn]
–adjective

Repeating the same action while expecting different results.

But Vizcaino didn't throw many pitches . . .

2007-08-06 12:53:27
193.   51cq24
190 i'm not sure if the "him" in torre's quotation is cashman or brower himself. it seems like it's brower. does that make any sense?
2007-08-06 12:53:39
194.   pistolpete
189 I still think Torre continues to give KK more chances to fail. Today could be one of them.

I hope I'm wrong, tho'...

2007-08-06 12:54:03
195.   RIYank
190 Damn. That's not a reason I wanted to hear.

Maybe Cashman will win the day eventually? Soon?

2007-08-06 12:55:08
196.   Shaun P
191 1. Joba pitched yesterday, wasn't available today anyway.

2. Designating Myers for assigning while on an international trip might have been considered cruel - better to do it before the trip.

2a. Torre would never use Edwar, so he was out.

2b. When Brower gets DFA'd to make room for Joba, no big deal - maybe some team even takes a chance on him, based on his good minor league numbers.

2007-08-06 12:56:19
197.   pistolpete
Wow, that 1/2 inning went quick.
2007-08-06 12:56:31
198.   nawlins yankee
I blinked and missed that half-inning. Viz coming back out for the eighth.
2007-08-06 12:57:21
199.   Shaun P
198 Its a miracle!
2007-08-06 12:58:26
200.   RIYank
Wow, good job. I was worried at 3-0.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-08-06 12:59:03
201.   JL25and3
The thing is, this isn't all that different from Joe's managing style over the years - it's something I've been trying to say all season. He put people in set roles, he gives veterans the chance to play to their established levels, and he waits. He's slow to make changes, to be sure.

But he makes them, and then he sticks with the changes, to give those players a chance to show what they can do.

A couple of months ago, people were calling for the Yankees to get rid of Matsui and Abreu and Vizcaino, and even to send Cano down. Fortunately, Torre stuck with them. Now Melky is installed in center field and when Damon comes back, he'll have to fight for playing time, not Melky. Phillips is the first baseman as long as he hits. Duncan's on the ML bench, and Cairo is all the way at the end, well past Betemit. Myers has been DFA'd, Proctor is traded, Farnsworth is being pushed further and further away from any important position. Vizcaino and Bruney are getting those innings.

So aside from Edwar, what's to complain about?

2007-08-06 12:59:40
202.   pistolpete
198 Any YES close-ups of a grimacing Farnsworth in the bullpen?
2007-08-06 12:59:58
203.   Shaun P
Uh oh
2007-08-06 13:00:08
204.   RIYank
Aaron Hill???

Well, good thing he didn't walk Glaus.

2007-08-06 13:00:20
205.   JL25and3
195 I also wonder why people posit a power struggle between Cashman and Torre.
2007-08-06 13:00:37
206.   RIYank
Joe thinking to himself: "Shoulda gone with my instincts."
2007-08-06 13:01:26
207.   RIYank
205 Over personnel?
Uh. I'll only say the obvious things. Torre likes guys with experience, Cashman is committed to the youth movement.
2007-08-06 13:01:46
208.   Shaun P
206 "DAMMIT! See what happens when I don't follow the formula?"
2007-08-06 13:02:23
209.   nawlins yankee
Drats. Solo shot for hill. Viz still in to pitch to Zaun, who is pinch-hitting for Thigpen of Peanuts fame.
2007-08-06 13:02:38
210.   RIYank
That's two outs on damage pitches for Viz.
2007-08-06 13:03:36
211.   pistolpete
Whew - 2 down even after another 3-ball count. Torre's aging about 3 more years because of this one.
2007-08-06 13:06:00
212.   JL25and3
207 Cashman's committed to a youth movement in terms of development and the organization, not necessarily for specific player assignments for this year.

And Cashman's also been committed to Torre.

2007-08-06 13:06:25
213.   RIYank
Viz. walks the tightrope one time too many.
2007-08-06 13:06:25
214.   yankz
It amazes me that people take Joe's quotes seriously. WTF is he supposed to say- "Joba had a passport issue, so we called up some scrub who we have no problem letting go after the game"??
2007-08-06 13:07:18
215.   pistolpete
TV people, is Mo warming up?
2007-08-06 13:07:18
216.   RIYank
Sure, Cashman's committed to Torre. I wasn't doubting that.

I figure there are 'friendly disagreements', with Cashman giving way on many occasions rather than pulling rank.

2007-08-06 13:08:11
217.   RIYank
Ugh.
Mo time.
2007-08-06 13:08:33
218.   yankz
Viz is losing it. He has pitched a ton lately.
2007-08-06 13:09:22
219.   OldYanksFan
166 Speaking as an 'Old' fan, I offer:
Until 1964, there were 20 teams, now there are 30. There was also a 4 man rotation. So there were fewer BAD pitchers, and the 'average' may have looked better.

As I've said, smaller parks, bigger hitters, lowered mound and more reliance on relievers, all go against starting pitchers. I think pitching today has as many good pitchers, but more bad pitchers.

There is more power and I'll guess many more runs scored then 30 years ago. And this is perception, but I think international players have added more to the excellent offensive pool, as opposed to the excellent pitchers pool.

My issue is does the HOF has limits on the number of players, and number of players at given positions, per year or per era? In a way, if we honor the best players of an era, then each era should have near equal numbers, and players must be more compared to players of their era then to other players in the hall.

2007-08-06 13:09:38
220.   Mattpat11
Bruney?
2007-08-06 13:10:08
221.   zerbert
212 take a look here http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/graziano/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/1185942036132290.xml&coll=1

Torre has frustrated people in the front office with his loyalty to slumping veterans and his refusal to use the players (Shelley Duncan, Edwar Ramirez, Andy Phillips when he first came up) they have promoted from their system. He voiced strong opposition to proposed deals for outfielder Milton Bradley and infielder Morgan Ensberg -- deals the Yankees eventually turned down in part because they believed those players would just rot on the bench. Duncan, who was a budding cult hero at Yankee Stadium a week and a half ago, played in just two games on the road trip that followed his big-splash debut weekend.

So as the Yankees mulled different available bench players in advance of the deadline, the common off-the-record refrain from Yankees officials was "our manager won't play him anyway."

It's just about impossible to find somebody in the Yankee organization who thinks Torre will be managing the team in 2008. He's a sure bet to finish out this season, but plans are in the works to replace him with Joe Girardi, Don Mattingly, Bobby Valentine or somebody else when it's over. And that feeling has made complaining about Torre a popular pastime around the team.

"All the people who used to ride with him in his Mercedes," said one team official, who requested anonymity because he was discussing such a sensitive topic, "are spitting on it now."

2007-08-06 13:10:17
222.   nawlins yankee
Viz, who appears to be suffering from Torre-fever (although Joe doesn't have a lot of options at this point) drills Stairs to put runners at first and second with 2 outs for Reed Johnson.
2007-08-06 13:10:18
223.   RIYank
I would have gone to Mo.
2007-08-06 13:10:52
224.   pistolpete
Holy sh*t, does Viz have anything today?
2007-08-06 13:12:30
225.   RIYank
Whew.
Okay, I have to admit that it will be nice to have Mo in there to get just three outs. Tough outs, too.
2007-08-06 13:13:04
226.   nawlins yankee
Yes! Viz wiggles out of it, getting a soft ground ball from Johnson. On to the 9th..
2007-08-06 13:13:53
227.   Mattpat11
[222} Bobby Valentine?
2007-08-06 13:14:22
228.   RIYank
221
Protocol:
in the future, please use TINYURL. The very long lines mess up some browsers loading Toaster comments.
2007-08-06 13:15:57
229.   OldYanksFan
201 Whats to complain about! WHATS to complain about? Are you kidding? If we lose this game, kiss the PS goodbye... Torre has to resign IMMEDIATELY... Cashman's done too... and... and... and...
2007-08-06 13:16:39
230.   Jeteupthemiddle
As Kay and Singleton noted though, it is interesting that Rivera didn't even start warming.

Instead Bruney and someone else but I forgot who, started warming when Vizcaino got in trouble.

Hopefully it is just a "try very, very hard to keep Rivera to 1 inning for the remainder of the season so he is fresh in October" thing and not a "my very best reliever for the past 11 years tweaked something" thing.

2007-08-06 13:16:58
231.   RIYank
Jays have a good bullpen. I was going to ask why Gibbons didn't go to Accardo, but Jensen is really good.
2007-08-06 13:17:04
232.   Mattpat11
OUTFIELDERS, KAY. Watch them.
2007-08-06 13:17:08
233.   pistolpete
Could we get at least one more insurance run? Pretty please, Yanks?
2007-08-06 13:17:11
234.   nawlins yankee
Leche hits the ball a ton to centerfield, this time for an out. Kid's a stud.
2007-08-06 13:19:18
235.   RIYank
Another really fast inning.

According to Win Expectancy Finder, we are now 81% favorites. (And WEF doesn't know about Mo.)

2007-08-06 13:19:36
236.   JL25and3
219 My main objections have to do with the Veterans Committee of years past. By and large, the BBWAA has done a pretty decent job. Yeah, they've put too much emphasis on BA, RBI and Wins, and they've managed not to elect Bert Blyleven and Ron Santo. Still, most of the guys they've elected have been Hall of Famers, more or less. That's about the best I'd expect from any group of electors, including SABR members.

Most of the egregious mistakes have been made by the Veterans Committee. I'll say just two words: Rick Ferrell.

2007-08-06 13:20:45
237.   Mattpat11
Here we go.
2007-08-06 13:22:05
238.   RIYank
219 Since we're still talking about that, I'll mention a pet peeve.
It's true that there were only 20 teams in 1964. But, the population of the US has almost doubled, so there should be fewer bad pitchers in MLB, not more. Furthermore, there are now a whole lot of foreign players in the game. No Dice-K in 1964, no Santana, no Mo. Speaking of whom: wow.

That's it. Just a pet peeve.

2007-08-06 13:23:23
239.   pistolpete
I'm getting ZERO work done today. Why couldn't this be a blowout?!
2007-08-06 13:24:35
240.   RIYank
Goddam.
2007-08-06 13:24:59
241.   RIYank
(Sorry, if you're on-line and behind, that was a GOOD 'goddam', not a bad one.)
2007-08-06 13:25:12
242.   JL25and3
221 I don't believe these articles. It sounds to me like there's one guy, maybe two, who have an ax to grind. They're doing it in a backhanded way that deflects all responsibility. I don't see any reason to believe that Cashman has a problem with Torre.

Note that when they did promote Phillips and Duncan, Joe has used them. In fact, Edwar is pretty much the only player that Joe didn't give a chance (yet).

And why do they keep complaining about Joe blocking the trades for Ensberg and Bradley? If that's true, he was right both times.

2007-08-06 13:25:49
243.   yankz
Who the hell is Rick of "RICK WHERE R U"? Rick Astley?

Mo = God

2007-08-06 13:25:53
244.   pistolpete
HA! One to go, Mo...
2007-08-06 13:27:14
245.   Mattpat11
That was strike three.
2007-08-06 13:27:15
246.   JL25and3
216 I'd agree with that. That's the case in any organization. In this case, I think each has the general confidence of the other. they have occasional disagreements, but they're able to resolve them as professionals.
2007-08-06 13:27:26
247.   Mattpat11
That was strike three.
2007-08-06 13:27:33
248.   RIYank
I'm almost in tears.
Sweet, sweet Mo.

He got squeezed on the 2-2 pitch, but holy freaking Mo comes through.

2007-08-06 13:28:30
249.   pistolpete
Big Hurt K's looking or swinging? What sort of pitch?
2007-08-06 13:28:32
250.   tommyl
Hey, this Mariano kid is pretty good.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-08-06 13:28:46
251.   nawlins yankee
Money. Vintage Mo K's the side. Good, tight game all-around. Now off to a crawfish boil. They never had those up in Brooklyn, if I can remember.
2007-08-06 13:28:57
252.   OldYanksFan
Jeez... Did Mo REALLY need more then 9 pitches in that inning? He must be getting old. :-)
2007-08-06 13:29:02
253.   ny2ca2dc
We just won a one-run game!
2007-08-06 13:29:09
254.   yankz
HA! I love Mo. I hope Farns is watching: command is everything.
2007-08-06 13:29:17
255.   tommyl
Mmm...is that tied for the WC lead now? :)
2007-08-06 13:29:35
256.   Shaun P
Please tell me no one seriously questions whether the Yanks will re-sign Mo or not anymore. That's dominance - the Blue Jays' best three hitters. Wham! Wham! Wham! Go home, birds.
2007-08-06 13:29:51
257.   Jersey
Gentlemen: Say hello to first place.
2007-08-06 13:30:25
258.   JohnnyC
Sat at 96. Wow. Vintage Mo.
2007-08-06 13:30:31
259.   Mattpat11
We needed to start this off like this. We cannot be fooled by "not under .500" The Blue Jays are no good. We need to continue feasting on these teams.
2007-08-06 13:30:54
260.   Shaun P
255 Let's go Twins!!!! And Devil Rays!!!!
2007-08-06 13:31:17
261.   Gagne55
255 for the moment
2007-08-06 13:31:42
262.   JL25and3
253 And it wasn't 11-10!
2007-08-06 13:31:51
263.   JohnnyC
259 They did have an 8 game home winning streak. We ended it.
2007-08-06 13:31:57
264.   Mattpat11
256 It never even crossed my mind. Someone actually floated the idea of not signing him?

Why?

2007-08-06 13:32:15
265.   51cq24
honestly i hope everyone realizes how incredible it is to watch this guy just pound the ball into the glove every time. just beautiful.
2007-08-06 13:32:24
266.   JL25and3
260 The hell with that - I'm still saying, Go Angels!
2007-08-06 13:32:43
267.   RIYank
249 Cutter away, struck out looking.

The previous pitch was a cutter in on the hands, called a ball, winning a glare from Mariano.

2007-08-06 13:33:04
268.   OldYanksFan
221 and 242 I have it on good authority that Torre sleeps over at Cashman's house frequently.

That guy is a hack. Had 2 other similar article with NO sources, limited (if any) quotes, tons of common knowledge and lots of conjecture.

Torre is a good company man and wants to win. We shouldn't forget that.

2007-08-06 13:33:28
269.   RIYank
265 It's a great privilege.
2007-08-06 13:34:47
270.   rconn23
The greatest closer of all time comes through again.

Folks, any way you slice it, this was a great win. It's one thing to drub the Royals and Devil Rays, it's another to beat a pretty good team on the road. We came back from what looked to be "one of those games" where the offense blew opportunities, and then the bullpen did a pretty solid job. Viz was a little shaky, but he got the outs when he needed them. Now Rocket must come through to atone for his hideous last start and we take the series.

2007-08-06 13:36:49
271.   OldYanksFan
Yes... Toronto is a decent team playing at home. But if we lose tomorrow... Torre must be fired IMMEDIATELY!
2007-08-06 13:36:52
272.   Mattpat11
Mariano Rivera since rock bottom (Adrian beltre)

32 Games
37 IP
29 H
2 BB
39 K
.84 WHIP
5 R, 5 ER
1 HR
1.22 ERA

2007-08-06 13:38:54
273.   RIYank
I think this game deserves a special

HA!

2007-08-06 13:39:20
274.   pistolpete
270 Viz getting out of it was the key to the game, IMO. Amazingly he didn't get pulled for Rivera in that situation, though.
2007-08-06 13:39:36
275.   joe in boston
My simple thoughts on a great day (rainy) to stay in and watch a Yankee win:

1) A good solid win today

2) we'll make the postseason

3) anyone make a "Mariano is God" shirt yet ?

4) did any of you catch the "C and C" interview at the end of the game ?! High Comedy indeed !

2007-08-06 13:41:04
276.   RIYank
274 What about Andy pitching out of his fifth inning problem?
2007-08-06 13:44:25
277.   pistolpete
275 Re: 4)

Speaking of which, did anyone see those two mob A-Rod in the dugout after #500? They looked like the Roxbury guys from that SNL sketch!

2007-08-06 13:45:24
278.   pistolpete
276 Like I said near the beginning of the game, this seems to happen to Andy more often than not these days.

Someone refresh my memory - did he used to pitch like this the first time around or is he just doing this lately?

2007-08-06 13:45:46
279.   yankz
271 We get it, you like Torre. Your sarcastic posts aren't funny, because no one who thinks Torre is no longer the right man for the job thinks like that. Did you even read those Goldman articles?

Also, what's the point of posts like that in the middle of celebrating? I don't see any "Torre must go" posts today.

2007-08-06 13:47:41
280.   RIYank
278 I can't say I remember, but people have been saying yeah, he always had a way of getting into and out of jams.
2007-08-06 13:50:53
281.   Mattpat11
278 I remember him always having one bad inning. This seems to be one long tightrope walk, but with less damage than I remember.
2007-08-06 13:51:12
282.   tommyl
271 I agree with 279. No one on here has demanded Torre get fired for knee jerk reasons, like, oh we lost today, fire the bum! Every argument I've seen (and I'd humbly like to think mine are included) are well thought out arguments based on facts. You may agree or disagree with them, but don't paint those people as knee jerk idiots who demand his head after a bad loss or something.
2007-08-06 13:53:04
283.   joe in boston
277 Personally, I love dugout shots - especially after good Yankee moments. I also love the "fist bump line" after a win
2007-08-06 14:20:24
284.   seamus
282 While there are a lot of factual arguments about Torre, there is quite a bit more emotional argumentation in my opinion. I believe that Torre needs to go myself, though not until after 2007, if onlybecause healthy organizations require occasional changes in leadership. But, this blog is not above the other blogs in its tendency towards overreaction to the moment. Just my opinion.
2007-08-06 14:21:19
285.   Mattpat11
263 So did Baltimore.
2007-08-06 14:59:20
286.   JohnnyC
284 One could, to paraphrase Brian Johnson, make a fair argument that the arguments on behalf of Torre are just as emotional and automatic.
2007-08-06 15:17:24
287.   Mattpat11
I've always thought that people way overstate the difference between the "best" and "worst" managers in baseball. They're all basically the same.

Even Mike Scioscia, a man everyone champions, pissed away his team's playoffs with an inexcusable "by the books" managerial move. This coming days after he suspended the second best hitter on the team for an ego boost.

2007-08-06 15:54:50
288.   yankz
Here's the C&C interview: http://tinyurl.com/ypkoyv

I totally expected Melky to have a baby voice (that was the first time I've ever heard him talk).

2007-08-06 16:00:27
289.   OldYanksFan
271 Also, what's the point of posts like that in the middle of celebrating? I don't see any "Torre must go" posts TODAY."

Kinda answers your own question, no?

282 How long have you been coming here regularly, Tommy? "... but don't paint those people as knee jerk idiots who demand his head after a bad loss or something"
Yes.. thankfully we didn't lose... or get behind... or see Farns... or have JD start in CF, or have any other impetus that might evoke these non-knee-jerk reactions.

Steve Goldman has been my favorite sports writer for some years now. And like most of his stuff, his take on Torre is pretty accurate. And UNlike most of us here because of his position with YES, he might actually have some inside knowledge (aside from watching basegames on TV from his living room) to back his reasoning. And he might be right.

However, George has never had a problem firing managers. He certainly had his chance last winter, but it seems Swindel and Cashman talked him out of it. Of course, if you've been here long enough, you'll know that Cashman is also an idiot, so I guess his viewpoint has no validity.

Sorry to bother you boys, but while most posters here are intelligent, sharp and often funny, I (and we all) have been subjected to dozens, if not hundreds of 'idiotic, knee-jerk' posts. Fortunately, after some real tantrums thrown here over Torre's moves, Pete at Lohud got the story and offered up an explaination.

Whether Torre and/or Cashman should go or not, is not my call. I'm just a dumb, loyal Yankees fan. Although while in truth it has been primarily confined to a small and vocal group, I knows rude and ignorant behavior when I sees it, and there has been plenty here.

So excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuzzzzze me for reacting to it. And for being a moron to the extent that I believe Torre, Cashman and the entire Yankee organization might know more about how to run a baseball team then we do.

2007-08-06 16:21:21
290.   RIYank
288 That is awesome. I'd heard Melky before so I knew what to expect, but seeing them do the interview together like that was charming.
2007-08-06 16:24:18
291.   Mattpat11
Detroit losing in the first.
2007-08-06 16:29:24
292.   Mattpat11
not anymore.
2007-08-06 16:53:55
293.   yankz
289 Being pissed off at seeing Farnsworth late in a close game is not "knee-jerk." Nor is seeing Damon in CF over Melky (which doesn't even happen anymore, so I don't know why you brought that up). Seeing Farnsworth repeatedly, along with other serious blunders, adds up to make a reasonable case against Torre. Much like the one Goldman makes in his latest blog entry.

Saying "I HOPE WE WIN TOMORROW OR TORRE MUST GO!!!" is not only lame, but it discredits people like tommyl or Goldman by lumping them into the same crowd as the supposed "knee-jerkers."

As for rude and ignorant behavior- like I said, I didn't see any here today, until you started initiated it with your (not funny) sarcasm.

Also, see 286.

2007-08-06 17:08:57
294.   joe in boston
can't we all get along ?!

The Yanks won today remember ?

2007-08-06 17:13:18
295.   JL25and3
287 I'd tend to agree with you, but I think I'd word it differently. I think there are definitely bad managers, who would be bad in any situation, but they don't last long.

In most cases, though, it's not so much a matter of a "good" manager or a "bad" one; it's a matter of managerial style. The important thing is to match the team, and the situation, with the manager and his style. Earl Weaver was the best damn manager I ever saw, since I never saw Stengel in his prime. But Weaver had, or was able to put together, a team that suited his style; I don't think that he, or Stengel, would suit this current Yankee team all that well. (Billy Martin was the other best manager I ever saw, before the stress and the booze made him totally psychotic, as long as it was for only one year.)

There are those who say that Torre was always a bad manager, and that the Yankees did their winning in spite of him. I think that ignores the serendipitous match of manager and team. There's no way to be certain, of course, but I've seen so many Yankee managers come and go that I have to believe his success and his longevity aren't an accident.

The question is whether he's still the right manager for this team. Many would scornfully say no; I'm leaning in that direction, but I'm not convinced. If they make a serious run at the division title, I'll believe that Torre's managing played a big part - I thought the same thing last year, and I said so frequently here. So right now I"m just biding my time.

2007-08-06 17:34:11
296.   Chyll Will
251In Brooklyn, it's called "spraying for roaches" >;P

Move along, nothing to see here...

2007-08-06 17:35:25
297.   Chyll Will
296 >;)
2007-08-06 17:36:52
298.   Mattpat11
4-2 Tampa.

I know I'll get grief for saying this, bit it seems that when the chips are down, Justin Verlander shits the bed.

2007-08-06 18:02:50
299.   RIYank
For future reference: when we have to bat against Edwin Jackson, take a lot of pitches.
He just threw seven pitches to Omar Infante. Not one was in the strike zone. Infante swung at four of them.
2007-08-06 18:05:10
300.   RIYank
Then Inge strikes out swinging at ball four.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-08-06 18:06:26
301.   Mattpat11
299 Silly head. Thats out strategy against the Wells and Schilling's of the world.
2007-08-06 18:10:07
302.   JL25and3
299 I was baffled by the Yankees last two games against him. I thought that was obvious, and I don't know crap.
2007-08-06 18:17:23
303.   Mattpat11
302 For years now, out strategy has been to take against men that throw nothing but strikes and swing against men that throw nothing but balls. I dont really understand, but the team has averaged 99 wins over the last five years, so they're doing something right.
2007-08-06 18:22:55
304.   randym77
I'm reading a book called "Haunted Baseball." Supposedly true baseball ghost stories, written by a Yankee fan and a Red Sox fan. The first chapter is about Huggins-Stengel Field, where the Yankees held spring training for many years.

People claim to have seen the ghost of Babe Ruth there. One grounds keeper saw a man wearing a gray uniform with #3 on it. He didn't realize it was a ghost until it walked through the wall. He didn't tell anyone about the encounter, but later that day, his boss found footprints burned into the grass, going into the wall.

And then there are the two clubbies who spent the night in the clubhouse, working late. All night long, they heard a party going on: card games being played, the clink of glasses and bottles, the smell of cigar smoke. But every time they went to look, there was no one there.

I get the feeling the authors had a lot of fun with this one. They interviewed a lot of baseball players, past, present, and upcoming, and got to ask them questions very different from the usual sports writer questions.

2007-08-06 18:24:28
305.   OldYanksFan
295 You speak well and I agree with you. While I 'defend' Joe, I too am upset with many of lis onfield managerial moves. My main issue is not whether Joe is a good manager or not, simply the level and degree of critism and disrespect he gets here.

There is so much we don't know. What Torre does well is the stuff we don't see. It's the things that don't happen because of Torre, not the things that do happen, that marks his impact on the team.

Earlier, he didn't play Abreu against Santana. Bobby had been sucking for quite a while, but he had been very hot for a number of days, and looked like he was coming around. [We] were all stunned that a guy who was very hot was not in the lineup when we needed our best offensive lineup against a guy like Santana. He took a hefty amount of shit from the Banter.

Later, PeteAbe spoke to Torre who told him that 'Bobby was just getting his confidence back, and he didn't want to risk that, going against a very tough lefthander'. Aside from being a very 'player oriented' move, it showed that Torre manages for the season, not just an individual game.

There was another incident when a 'poor' lineup move was made, again, to be later explained by Pete that said player was having some personal issues at the time, and Torre didn't want to stress him more.

Again, I am not defending Torre per say, as much as saying there is just sooooooo much we don't know. The good things Torre does just don't show.

I'll say this. He stuck by the players this year, even when I was ready to dump them all. Remember trade Cano talk? Philly was right about Bobby talk? Dump JD talk (still going on)? Now it seems dumping them might not have been the answer. And while I have tremendous respect for Goldman, the sports press these days is simply inflamatory and yellow to attract attention, so I take it all with a boulder of salt (Goldman excluded).

I have a lot of respect for both Torre and the Yankee team. That's something I could rarely say before Torre arrived.

I don't want to 'beat a dead horse', so I'll leave it at that. Feel free to reply. I've said my peace (or piece?)

2007-08-06 18:24:41
306.   Mattpat11
Danny Glover just gave up a tater to Casey

4-3 with Mags up

2007-08-06 18:28:23
307.   Jersey
304 Thanks for the heads-up, that sounds like a GREAT read.
2007-08-06 18:31:16
308.   Mattpat11
And the bubble is burst. Tampa Bay, in fact, Tampa Bay.
2007-08-06 18:33:48
309.   RIYank
Oh yeah, the D-Rays' bullpen. Now I remember.

306 They would have done better to have thrown Danny out there.

2007-08-06 18:36:18
310.   Mattpat11
309 If I thought Glover's first name was important, I'm sure I would have made some effort to learn it
2007-08-06 18:40:52
311.   RIYank
310 Fair enough, Brucepat11.

Balfour is aptly named. I wonder whether he comes from a long line of pitchers.

2007-08-06 18:45:44
312.   yankz
305 I believe it's peace, but who knows? You make a lot of good points, and frankly I'm just too lazy to respond, so let's leave it for another day (unless someone else wants to take over).
2007-08-06 18:53:55
313.   randym77
307 I'm enjoying it. Lots of fun for a baseball fan.

Apparently, some players are worried that the ghosts of Yankee Stadium won't relocate to the new stadium.

Also, Derek Jeter promises that when he's a ghost, he'll definitely hang around the stadium and help out the Yankees. :-D

2007-08-06 19:07:15
314.   Mattpat11
Dioner Navarro came in to pinch hit.

This failed.

2007-08-06 19:14:16
315.   vockins
Not really on topic, but what the hell is Ryan Braun on? Dude is out of control.
2007-08-06 19:27:54
316.   RIYank
315 Which one?
(They were in the most recent SI page on guys with the same or similar names. Funny page. Every week.)

Oh well, we'll just have to keep beating the Jays until the Tigers lose.

2007-08-06 19:28:31
317.   Andre
305 For me, yours is the best post I've read on the Banter (maybe ever). I agree with everything you said.
2007-08-06 19:35:31
318.   OldYanksFan
It was a great win today, but it looks like we are not going to gain any ground on anyone. Nonetheless, these days I feel like its not 'if', but 'when'.

Frankly, a month ago, looking at an October without Yankee baseball had me feeling pretty glum. I guess we can't make the PS every year (can we?), but I'm happy to postpone that time.

It ain't a done deal yet, but I feel pretty confident. This team is now the best balanced it has been in many years.

I'm just surprised Seattle has hung on this long. Oh, I guess we gain a half game on them.

2007-08-06 19:55:59
319.   seamus
pete abe has the news. Joba on the way! Activated for tomorrow's game.
2007-08-06 19:58:06
320.   seamus
Which makes me wonder. There must be two moves for tomorrow. Giambi for Cairo? Joba for ???
2007-08-06 20:08:51
321.   yankz
320 Brower? Karstens?
2007-08-06 20:10:41
322.   Mattpat11
320 There can only be one answer.
2007-08-06 20:15:57
323.   Mattpat11
320 There can only be one answer.
2007-08-06 20:40:07
324.   ChrisS
295

"If they make a serious run at the division title, I'll believe that Torre's managing played a big part - I thought the same thing last year, and I said so frequently here. So right now I"m just biding my time. "

Here we go again.

That's still a very flimsy assertion. I think that the Yankees have a legitimate lineup of very good baseball players that will tend to play to their ability over the course of a season regardless of who is managing them (within reason). If the Yankees make a run at a division title, then my opinion is validated. But we can't both be right so we have a little problem.

Me, I don't think that manager has much more influence on a team's W/L other than a few games in either direction over the course of a season (and kinda opposite of golf I think it's much easier for them to influence down than up, plus short series are very different). If Arod. arguably the best hitter in baseball, has ~ 7 or so wins created this season, is it really that much of stretch to think that Joe Torre has less influence on a team's ability to win? Especially since there's a fairly big chunk of evidence that he makes strategic mistakes, including how and when to use bullpen pitchers. So if an ideal manager was both a strategic genius and player saavy he would be ++ in helping the team. Torre then would have even less influence to move the team towards more wins since he's a -+.

Case in point: Ozzie Guillen. Lots of baseball writers wrote that "Ozzie-ball" made the White Sox world champions, that he was the reason. Not that some guys had inordinately good years, including just about everyone on the pitching staff. Flash forward to 2006, same players, same manager, fewer wins (but thanks to a very good offense they hid how bad the pitching was), and this year it's even worse (having two OPS blackholes like Darin Erstad and Juan Uribe in the line-up will do that to an offense). So, in truth, how many wins is Ozzie responsible for? Probably not many.

Over here in Yankee-land, there's a lineup full of highly paid and very good hitters. Surprisingly enough, they are rebounding from a horrible first two months. Two months that included a decimated pitching staff, and an offense that in addition to a fwe key players slumping, Doug Mientkiewicz's OPS+ of 80 and Miguel Cairo's OPS+ of 70 (neither were that out of step with their career norms or expected. Also, their pythagorean theorem indicated that they were probably getting bad breaks (including a rock bottom record in 1-run games). Since then, the pitching staff has been solidified, and Dougie has been replaced by Andy Phillips 102+ vs. Dougie's 80 in approximately the same number of ABs, Damon has been replaced in CF by Cabrera (109 OPS+ vs. 92). And Will Nieves's OPS+ of 13 in 61 ABs has been excised from the team.

This has turned into a book, but to brief in the end, the quality of the players has much more to do with W/L than the manager over the course of a large sample size (e.g., a season). However, in a short series, the manager's strategic decisions come heavily into play, because a bad week can't be made up for during the next.

2007-08-06 21:39:43
325.   BklynBmr
Anyone watching Halos-Boston? I just learned something new. An Angel on third, 1 out. Medium deep flyball hit to left. Boston LF'r Moss (Manny got tossed eariler) gloves it, but starts a juggling act with the ball, finally catching it. Meanwhile, Angel on third takes off and scores easily. Sox argue he left too early and appeal, but umps say play stands. Rulebook says runners can tag at 'first contact' with the glove. Apparently intended to keep an OF from juggling the ball all the way into the infield to keep the runner from advancing. I'd like to know who pulled that one before it resulted in a rule change...

So far, so good. Halos 4-2, top 8...

2007-08-06 22:15:32
326.   3rd gen yankee fan
6 games, baby.
2007-08-06 22:17:22
327.   BklynBmr
Halos hang on, 4-2 final. Good game. Bombers just a six pack back...
2007-08-06 22:30:58
328.   yankz
325 I can totally imagine Manny doing that.

You know, if we sweep the rest of the games vs. the Sox...

2007-08-06 23:33:58
329.   BklynBmr
328 Lightning can strike thrice, my brother. Baaastin Maaassacka III, anyone? I'm down.

Manny? You nailed it. I'm just not sure it would be intentional with him... ;-)

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