Damon
Jeter
Abreu
Rodriguez
Matsui
Posada
Cano
Phillips
Cabrera

Still...seems a bit crazy since they would have to DFA Brower to send him back down, right?

"Jim Brower is here, Joe Torre said, because he can throw two or three days in a row and go multiple innings. Joba Chamberlain has today off. Torre said he didn't know whether his next appearance would be for Scranton or the Yankees."

We all know he wouldn't use Edwar, so that makes sense.

3 Not really, Brower is in his mid-30s and doesn't have the greatest major league track record. He's pitched well enough this year, so maybe the DFA process gets him on someone's radar and he gets a major league job; at worst he goes back to SWB. His MiLB.com page suggests he was in the independent leagues earlier in the year, so I'm sure he's happy just to have a job.

Pettitte
Clemens
Wang
Hughes
Mussina
Pettitte

HA?!?!?!

A-Rod walked, making the first pitch all the sillier.

39 pitches, pretty good considering we only have one hit.

Sorta like Wrigley Field.

Oh, come on, Andy, don't walk the weak rookie. Control problems?

I also really liked the name "SkyDome". =)

McDonald doesn't qualify for THT's Zone Rating, but if he did, he would be in first in the AL with an .869 rate, ahead of Miguel Tejada (.860).

Runner on second, two outs, 2-1 Jays.

At that, it would have been better if they'd chosen Stadium or Field instead of Centre. (Or is that "Stadimu or Fiedl instead of Center?")

But monkeypants is right; this one is like Jacobs or Turner. It's not Insert This Year's Corporate Sponsor Field.

This had better be one of those games where Pettitte has a bad inning but then settles down.

(A-Rod singles.)

Patience, Rob....

Rob, come on, dude. Oh well.

Patience, Andy...

I feel shaky again.

Bullpen, bullpen, bullpen! Make Litsch work!

There ya go, Melk! Single.

i don't think glavine is a hall of famer no matter how many wins he gets. i wouldn't even put him in the top 10 pitchers of his time.

We'll have to get Litsch out of there next inning. The sixth will be a big one...

Argh. Successful double steal. 2nd and 3rd with nobody out...

Shoot, I have to actually do something for work now.
Hold the fort, Banterers, I feel a big inning coming soon if Andy gets out of this jam.

But really, I'm leaving. Really!

Clemens, Maddux, Martinez. Santana, if you consider him the same era. Guys like Halliday have to do a lot more before I'd consider them to have better careers than Glavine. And...who?

What are the criteria? Stuff wise, there are several guys in front of him. Just starters, he's in the top 10. If you expand it to include closers, then Smoltz and Rivera are probably ahead as well.

i don't think all these pitchers are hall of famers. but even the guys with question marks i'd take in big games over glavine, at the peaks of their respective careers. a hall of famer should be someone who intimidates you. for a very small example, when the braves took a 5-1 lead in game 3 of the 99 world series, i thought "well it's only glavine." admittedly, part of that is that in comparison to the 2 clear hofers on his team i'd prefer him. but i never thought "oh no we have to face glavine now," even down 2-0 in 96. shouldn't a hall of famer be scary?

By WARP3, Glavine has 133.2 for his career. By Jay Jaffe's JAWS (from December 2005):

"Glavine: 124.9/61.3/93.1, a no-brainer in his favor. The two pitchers he falls between right now are Fergie Jenkins and Nolan Ryan."

Robbie!!!

I'm pretty sure those guys belong in the Hall (maybe not Perry), and if so, I'm not sure how Glavine doesn't belong.

124 That's your HOF criteria? How much a guy scares you?

Cano is amazing.

138 there's no question he's been a good pitcher. but does that make him an automatic hall of famer? my criteria is not how much a guy scares you, and i never said it was. but don't you think a hall of famer should be someone you dread facing in a game that you need to win, on top of the numbers? i don't think that numbers alone can be the criteria, otherwise you'd just be compiling and trying to get milestones. in my opinion, glavine is a great pitcher but not one of the very best all time.

That was a really good inning.

With so many hitters getting 500 HRs, that bar might need to be raised. With pitching, compared to pre 1980, the bar might need to be lowered (like the mound)?

It would be pretty radical. No managers do this. But these 2 runs, with us being the visiting team, are very big.

No, because not every team "dreads facing" every pitcher all the time. I remember an interview Whitey Ford gave where he said how much he hated facing a team, don't remember which one (Cleveland maybe?) for a few years because they absolutely owned him.

And how do you accurately compare "dread"? For example, would Derek Jeter ever admit to dreading facing anyone?

"i don't think that numbers alone can be the criteria, otherwise you'd just be compiling and trying to get milestones."

Numbers aren't the only criteria, otherwise Bert Blyleven would be a shoo-in right now, and Rock Raines would go in first ballot next year, and Alan Trammell would already have his plaque. Outside stuff (ASG appearances, major awards, performance of team, etc.) factor in all the time.

But the numbers should be the primary consideration, as they are the record of what happened on the field.

But here, we get Brower.

Weird.

Now, Edwar, well, he's never faced big leaguers before, you see, and so its best to ease him in in a low-leverage situation. Don't want to scare the kid.

but i really don't care enough to keep arguing about it. i just don't think he's a hall of fame pitcher if a hall of fame pitcher is someone you never want to face with your season on the line.

Your system overvalues Stuff and undervalues Getting Guys Out. You basically have to have a blazing fastball and a knee-buckling curve to qualify.

In the last ten years or so, the pitcher I least wanted to face the Yankees with the season on the line might have been Frank Castillo.

I think a new BB record was set today: Most responses to one comment (142)

I really hope I'm wrong.

I don't believe we'll see Kyle today. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I believe the truth is seeping into Torre.

Torre said the Yankees picked Brower over other candidates, such as 21-year-old prospect Joba Chamberlain, because of his versatility.

"The experience that Brower has," Torre explained. "After just talking to him, the fact that he can pitch multiple innings, he can pitch three days in a row. He can do a lot of things for us."

so no, not really.

The answer to that may be that Joba just pitched and wouldn't be available today anyway.

2. Why not just keep Myers on board if you're not going to bring up Joba?

Don't know.

Repeating the same action while expecting different results.

But Vizcaino didn't throw many pitches . . .

I hope I'm wrong, tho'...

Maybe Cashman will win the day eventually? Soon?

2. Designating Myers for assigning while on an international trip might have been considered cruel - better to do it before the trip.

2a. Torre would never use Edwar, so he was out.

2b. When Brower gets DFA'd to make room for Joba, no big deal - maybe some team even takes a chance on him, based on his good minor league numbers.

But he makes them, and then he sticks with the changes, to give those players a chance to show what they can do.

A couple of months ago, people were calling for the Yankees to get rid of Matsui and Abreu and Vizcaino, and even to send Cano down. Fortunately, Torre stuck with them. Now Melky is installed in center field and when Damon comes back, he'll have to fight for playing time, not Melky. Phillips is the first baseman as long as he hits. Duncan's on the ML bench, and Cairo is all the way at the end, well past Betemit. Myers has been DFA'd, Proctor is traded, Farnsworth is being pushed further and further away from any important position. Vizcaino and Bruney are getting those innings.

So aside from Edwar, what's to complain about?

Well, good thing he didn't walk Glaus.

And Cashman's also been committed to Torre.

I figure there are 'friendly disagreements', with Cashman giving way on many occasions rather than pulling rank.

As I've said, smaller parks, bigger hitters, lowered mound and more reliance on relievers, all go against starting pitchers. I think pitching today has as many good pitchers, but more bad pitchers.

There is more power and I'll guess many more runs scored then 30 years ago. And this is perception, but I think international players have added more to the excellent offensive pool, as opposed to the excellent pitchers pool.

My issue is does the HOF has limits on the number of players, and number of players at given positions, per year or per era? In a way, if we honor the best players of an era, then each era should have near equal numbers, and players must be more compared to players of their era then to other players in the hall.

Torre has frustrated people in the front office with his loyalty to slumping veterans and his refusal to use the players (Shelley Duncan, Edwar Ramirez, Andy Phillips when he first came up) they have promoted from their system. He voiced strong opposition to proposed deals for outfielder Milton Bradley and infielder Morgan Ensberg -- deals the Yankees eventually turned down in part because they believed those players would just rot on the bench. Duncan, who was a budding cult hero at Yankee Stadium a week and a half ago, played in just two games on the road trip that followed his big-splash debut weekend.

So as the Yankees mulled different available bench players in advance of the deadline, the common off-the-record refrain from Yankees officials was "our manager won't play him anyway."

It's just about impossible to find somebody in the Yankee organization who thinks Torre will be managing the team in 2008. He's a sure bet to finish out this season, but plans are in the works to replace him with Joe Girardi, Don Mattingly, Bobby Valentine or somebody else when it's over. And that feeling has made complaining about Torre a popular pastime around the team.

"All the people who used to ride with him in his Mercedes," said one team official, who requested anonymity because he was discussing such a sensitive topic, "are spitting on it now."

Instead Bruney and someone else but I forgot who, started warming when Vizcaino got in trouble.

Hopefully it is just a "try very, very hard to keep Rivera to 1 inning for the remainder of the season so he is fresh in October" thing and not a "my very best reliever for the past 11 years tweaked something" thing.

According to Win Expectancy Finder, we are now 81% favorites. (And WEF doesn't know about Mo.)

Most of the egregious mistakes have been made by the Veterans Committee. I'll say just two words: Rick Ferrell.

That's it. Just a pet peeve.

Note that when they did promote Phillips and Duncan, Joe has used them. In fact, Edwar is pretty much the only player that Joe didn't give a chance (yet).

And why do they keep complaining about Joe blocking the trades for Ensberg and Bradley? If that's true, he was right both times.

Mo = God

He got squeezed on the 2-2 pitch, but holy freaking Mo comes through.

Why?

The previous pitch was a cutter in on the hands, called a ball, winning a glare from Mariano.

That guy is a hack. Had 2 other similar article with NO sources, limited (if any) quotes, tons of common knowledge and lots of conjecture.

Torre is a good company man and wants to win. We shouldn't forget that.

Folks, any way you slice it, this was a great win. It's one thing to drub the Royals and Devil Rays, it's another to beat a pretty good team on the road. We came back from what looked to be "one of those games" where the offense blew opportunities, and then the bullpen did a pretty solid job. Viz was a little shaky, but he got the outs when he needed them. Now Rocket must come through to atone for his hideous last start and we take the series.

32 Games
37 IP
29 H
2 BB
39 K
.84 WHIP
5 R, 5 ER
1 HR
1.22 ERA

HA!

1) A good solid win today

2) we'll make the postseason

3) anyone make a "Mariano is God" shirt yet ?

4) did any of you catch the "C and C" interview at the end of the game ?! High Comedy indeed !

Speaking of which, did anyone see those two mob A-Rod in the dugout after #500? They looked like the Roxbury guys from that SNL sketch!

Someone refresh my memory - did he used to pitch like this the first time around or is he just doing this lately?

Also, what's the point of posts like that in the middle of celebrating? I don't see any "Torre must go" posts today.

Even Mike Scioscia, a man everyone champions, pissed away his team's playoffs with an inexcusable "by the books" managerial move. This coming days after he suspended the second best hitter on the team for an ego boost.

I totally expected Melky to have a baby voice (that was the first time I've ever heard him talk).

Kinda answers your own question, no?

282 How long have you been coming here regularly, Tommy? "... but don't paint those people as knee jerk idiots who demand his head after a bad loss or something"
Yes.. thankfully we didn't lose... or get behind... or see Farns... or have JD start in CF, or have any other impetus that might evoke these non-knee-jerk reactions.

Steve Goldman has been my favorite sports writer for some years now. And like most of his stuff, his take on Torre is pretty accurate. And UNlike most of us here because of his position with YES, he might actually have some inside knowledge (aside from watching basegames on TV from his living room) to back his reasoning. And he might be right.

However, George has never had a problem firing managers. He certainly had his chance last winter, but it seems Swindel and Cashman talked him out of it. Of course, if you've been here long enough, you'll know that Cashman is also an idiot, so I guess his viewpoint has no validity.

Sorry to bother you boys, but while most posters here are intelligent, sharp and often funny, I (and we all) have been subjected to dozens, if not hundreds of 'idiotic, knee-jerk' posts. Fortunately, after some real tantrums thrown here over Torre's moves, Pete at Lohud got the story and offered up an explaination.

Whether Torre and/or Cashman should go or not, is not my call. I'm just a dumb, loyal Yankees fan. Although while in truth it has been primarily confined to a small and vocal group, I knows rude and ignorant behavior when I sees it, and there has been plenty here.

So excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuzzzzze me for reacting to it. And for being a moron to the extent that I believe Torre, Cashman and the entire Yankee organization might know more about how to run a baseball team then we do.

Saying "I HOPE WE WIN TOMORROW OR TORRE MUST GO!!!" is not only lame, but it discredits people like tommyl or Goldman by lumping them into the same crowd as the supposed "knee-jerkers."

As for rude and ignorant behavior- like I said, I didn't see any here today, until you started initiated it with your (not funny) sarcasm.

Also, see 286.

The Yanks won today remember ?

In most cases, though, it's not so much a matter of a "good" manager or a "bad" one; it's a matter of managerial style. The important thing is to match the team, and the situation, with the manager and his style. Earl Weaver was the best damn manager I ever saw, since I never saw Stengel in his prime. But Weaver had, or was able to put together, a team that suited his style; I don't think that he, or Stengel, would suit this current Yankee team all that well. (Billy Martin was the other best manager I ever saw, before the stress and the booze made him totally psychotic, as long as it was for only one year.)

There are those who say that Torre was always a bad manager, and that the Yankees did their winning in spite of him. I think that ignores the serendipitous match of manager and team. There's no way to be certain, of course, but I've seen so many Yankee managers come and go that I have to believe his success and his longevity aren't an accident.

The question is whether he's still the right manager for this team. Many would scornfully say no; I'm leaning in that direction, but I'm not convinced. If they make a serious run at the division title, I'll believe that Torre's managing played a big part - I thought the same thing last year, and I said so frequently here. So right now I"m just biding my time.

Move along, nothing to see here...

I know I'll get grief for saying this, bit it seems that when the chips are down, Justin Verlander shits the bed.

People claim to have seen the ghost of Babe Ruth there. One grounds keeper saw a man wearing a gray uniform with #3 on it. He didn't realize it was a ghost until it walked through the wall. He didn't tell anyone about the encounter, but later that day, his boss found footprints burned into the grass, going into the wall.

And then there are the two clubbies who spent the night in the clubhouse, working late. All night long, they heard a party going on: card games being played, the clink of glasses and bottles, the smell of cigar smoke. But every time they went to look, there was no one there.

I get the feeling the authors had a lot of fun with this one. They interviewed a lot of baseball players, past, present, and upcoming, and got to ask them questions very different from the usual sports writer questions.

There is so much we don't know. What Torre does well is the stuff we don't see. It's the things that don't happen because of Torre, not the things that do happen, that marks his impact on the team.

Earlier, he didn't play Abreu against Santana. Bobby had been sucking for quite a while, but he had been very hot for a number of days, and looked like he was coming around. [We] were all stunned that a guy who was very hot was not in the lineup when we needed our best offensive lineup against a guy like Santana. He took a hefty amount of shit from the Banter.

Later, PeteAbe spoke to Torre who told him that 'Bobby was just getting his confidence back, and he didn't want to risk that, going against a very tough lefthander'. Aside from being a very 'player oriented' move, it showed that Torre manages for the season, not just an individual game.

There was another incident when a 'poor' lineup move was made, again, to be later explained by Pete that said player was having some personal issues at the time, and Torre didn't want to stress him more.

Again, I am not defending Torre per say, as much as saying there is just sooooooo much we don't know. The good things Torre does just don't show.

I'll say this. He stuck by the players this year, even when I was ready to dump them all. Remember trade Cano talk? Philly was right about Bobby talk? Dump JD talk (still going on)? Now it seems dumping them might not have been the answer. And while I have tremendous respect for Goldman, the sports press these days is simply inflamatory and yellow to attract attention, so I take it all with a boulder of salt (Goldman excluded).

I have a lot of respect for both Torre and the Yankee team. That's something I could rarely say before Torre arrived.

I don't want to 'beat a dead horse', so I'll leave it at that. Feel free to reply. I've said my peace (or piece?)

4-3 with Mags up

306 They would have done better to have thrown Danny out there.

Balfour is aptly named. I wonder whether he comes from a long line of pitchers.

Apparently, some players are worried that the ghosts of Yankee Stadium won't relocate to the new stadium.

Also, Derek Jeter promises that when he's a ghost, he'll definitely hang around the stadium and help out the Yankees. :-D

This failed.

Oh well, we'll just have to keep beating the Jays until the Tigers lose.

Frankly, a month ago, looking at an October without Yankee baseball had me feeling pretty glum. I guess we can't make the PS every year (can we?), but I'm happy to postpone that time.

It ain't a done deal yet, but I feel pretty confident. This team is now the best balanced it has been in many years.

I'm just surprised Seattle has hung on this long. Oh, I guess we gain a half game on them.

"If they make a serious run at the division title, I'll believe that Torre's managing played a big part - I thought the same thing last year, and I said so frequently here. So right now I"m just biding my time. "

Here we go again.

That's still a very flimsy assertion. I think that the Yankees have a legitimate lineup of very good baseball players that will tend to play to their ability over the course of a season regardless of who is managing them (within reason). If the Yankees make a run at a division title, then my opinion is validated. But we can't both be right so we have a little problem.

Me, I don't think that manager has much more influence on a team's W/L other than a few games in either direction over the course of a season (and kinda opposite of golf I think it's much easier for them to influence down than up, plus short series are very different). If Arod. arguably the best hitter in baseball, has ~ 7 or so wins created this season, is it really that much of stretch to think that Joe Torre has less influence on a team's ability to win? Especially since there's a fairly big chunk of evidence that he makes strategic mistakes, including how and when to use bullpen pitchers. So if an ideal manager was both a strategic genius and player saavy he would be ++ in helping the team. Torre then would have even less influence to move the team towards more wins since he's a -+.

Case in point: Ozzie Guillen. Lots of baseball writers wrote that "Ozzie-ball" made the White Sox world champions, that he was the reason. Not that some guys had inordinately good years, including just about everyone on the pitching staff. Flash forward to 2006, same players, same manager, fewer wins (but thanks to a very good offense they hid how bad the pitching was), and this year it's even worse (having two OPS blackholes like Darin Erstad and Juan Uribe in the line-up will do that to an offense). So, in truth, how many wins is Ozzie responsible for? Probably not many.

Over here in Yankee-land, there's a lineup full of highly paid and very good hitters. Surprisingly enough, they are rebounding from a horrible first two months. Two months that included a decimated pitching staff, and an offense that in addition to a fwe key players slumping, Doug Mientkiewicz's OPS+ of 80 and Miguel Cairo's OPS+ of 70 (neither were that out of step with their career norms or expected. Also, their pythagorean theorem indicated that they were probably getting bad breaks (including a rock bottom record in 1-run games). Since then, the pitching staff has been solidified, and Dougie has been replaced by Andy Phillips 102+ vs. Dougie's 80 in approximately the same number of ABs, Damon has been replaced in CF by Cabrera (109 OPS+ vs. 92). And Will Nieves's OPS+ of 13 in 61 ABs has been excised from the team.

This has turned into a book, but to brief in the end, the quality of the players has much more to do with W/L than the manager over the course of a large sample size (e.g., a season). However, in a short series, the manager's strategic decisions come heavily into play, because a bad week can't be made up for during the next.

So far, so good. Halos 4-2, top 8...

You know, if we sweep the rest of the games vs. the Sox...

Manny? You nailed it. I'm just not sure it would be intentional with him... ;-)