Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Hit List
2008-04-15 15:26
by Alex Belth

I haven't mentioned it yet, but I can't let the seventh anniversary of Jay Jaffe's seminal baseball blog Futility Infielder pass without comment. Jay was the first person connected with the blog world that I ever met in person. It was right around this time, the spring of 2003. We had lunch at Christine's, a polish diner on Second avenue just south of 14th street that I frequented often as teenager with my friend Mary Lou, who lived right around the block.

Jay and I have remained friends ever since. We generally go to a couple of games at the Stadium every year, and we watch a handful more together at our respective cribs (Brooklyn, Bronx). Jay is one of the all-time baseball conversationalists. I always come away from our conversations knowing more, curiosities satisfied, others stimulated. And we never fail to have laughs. A spontaneous schtick that we did watching Paul LoDuca late last season has forever altered my ability to take LoDuca seriously ever again. I can't not laugh at Paulie when I see him, read about him or hear his name.

And more than just that, respect due, cause Jay is strictly OB: Original Blogga. He's one of a small group of guys, which include Geoff Young, whose Ducksnorts started in 1997, that is still around. And even if he doesn't blog as frequently as he has in the past, Jay's writing--particularly the work he does at Baseball Prospectus--is better and more prolific than ever. He's polished when talking in front of audiences at bookstores, he knows his s*** when talking on the radio. He's a pro.

Anyhow, I'm happy to call him a pal, and I'm really impressed with how he's developed and honed his work over the years. And I wanted to say as much.

Now, come on you guys, let's git 'em!

Comments (268)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-04-15 16:08:05
1.   ny2ca2dc taking a dump again tonight.
2008-04-15 16:13:31
2.   Eirias
1 Indeed, though I've somehow managed to the radio deal to work.
2008-04-15 16:14:31
3.   rbj
I get to hear Jeffe every Wed. afternoon on the local ESPN station, talking baseball. He always has something intelligent to say, which is unusual on radio.
2008-04-15 16:18:05
4.   williamnyy23
1 It's working for me tonight.
2008-04-15 16:20:46
5.   ny2ca2dc came around for me during Jeter's AB.
2008-04-15 16:21:19
6.   OldYanksFan
1 Didn't work 5 minutes ago but working for me now.
2008-04-15 16:21:58
7.   ny2ca2dc
What's with Cano's socks?
2008-04-15 16:25:23
8.   Schteeve
I just found out that I got tickets the the Yanks White Sox game next Thursday.

If the rotation lines up they way I think it lines up, Hughes is pitching! I'm fired up.

2008-04-15 16:26:56
9.   Schteeve
And as for tonight, I hope it's not too much to hope that they can put a dent in Cy Jackson.
2008-04-15 16:28:01
10.   Alex Belth
2008-04-15 16:28:55
11.   ny2ca2dc
Ziller sure seems to hit well in this dome. Feel free to make parallels to the domes in Japan.'s audio is going bezerk!

2008-04-15 16:29:12
12.   SF Yanks
I can see Giambi start to get hot...hopefully that happens.
2008-04-15 16:31:09
13.   SF Yanks
Cano's taking better swings it seems.
2008-04-15 16:31:58
14.   ny2ca2dc
8 Good stuff, but you sure Hughes lines up? I think you get Kennedy.

I got tix to Yanks at B-More this Friday, where Hughes will be pitching. Lower deck seats even, can't remember the last time I had that!

No comments on Cano's socks?! It's really quite a big deal.

2008-04-15 16:35:51
15.   Knuckles
I just logged Edwin Jackson wearing #42 for the Jackie Robinson anniv? Is anyone else (besides Mo, natch)?
2008-04-15 16:36:43
16.   fansince77
was that last pitch low to Melk? I hate when the umps take ab's away from guys when they are working it.
2008-04-15 16:38:32
17.   OldYanksFan
Wow... MLB.TV audio dies, and they switch to the YES broadcast. Cool. And Singleton too... nice!
2008-04-15 16:40:06
18.   OldYanksFan
There has been VERY little word on Bobby Murcer. I hope no news is good news.
2008-04-15 16:42:45
19.   rbj
15 The entire Devil Rays team is.
I'm surprised there isn't an ESPN game tonight focusing on Jackie.

Andy "Houdini" Pettitte escapes! The Rays do have some good young hitters, they aren't cupcakes anymore.

2008-04-15 16:43:22
20.   SF Yanks
Whether the bases are loaded or just men on base, I don't sweat it when Andy's pitching. First inning, didn't sweat. Even right now, I said to myself, "He'll get out of it." That's a good feeling to have, let me tell you.
2008-04-15 16:43:22
21.   fansince77
Bad news- rap, bap, smack and whack!
Good news- double play ends the inning.
2008-04-15 16:44:11
22.   OldYanksFan
They must have homeplate miked because the hits Andy is giving up sound like cannon shots.
2008-04-15 16:45:57
23.   ChrisS
I just signed up for a single month of only to find out (what I should have known) that Syracuse, NY is in the Yankees' home TV market, so the games are blacked out.

The reason I signed up for was so I could watch the games when I travel to the mid-west and west (75%/month), but the blackout is based on my billing address. Thus, I can have while in sunny CA, but not be able to watch the Yankees because of my NY zip code.

2008-04-15 16:46:26
24.   williamnyy23
Of all the slumbering bats, Damons' is the only one that worries me. I think at some point he'll need to be moved out of the lead off spot.
2008-04-15 16:47:23
25.   fansince77
That's a great inning of swinging the lumber.
2008-04-15 16:50:57
26.   ny2ca2dc
23 I think they actually do the blackouts based on your IP address location, so when you're traveling you should be in business.
2008-04-15 16:57:00
27.   ny2ca2dc
24 Agree, his old guy skills are lacking. When his power and speed start to go, as they have, you can't live with the faltering ave & obp... So what's left of the guy? Ziller, at least, can still hit, as can Abreu. I think the guy needs to be traded (for LHRP, maybe, or some prospects, hard as it is to imagine getting any kind of blue chip positional prospects in return, even when eating half/most the salary) in the worst way. Brett Gardner could probably approximate Damon. Just let Hideki play Left and LIDR Gardner, and run a DH/1B rotation with Betemit, Duncan, Giambi, and Ensberg.

What I'm really worried about, actually, is next year. Sure, the team will struggle this year with the young pitchers, but it's not like next year they'll all be 100% good to go - they'll still struggle. And next year the offense could fall off some goodly amount. And that's even assuming they go out and get Tiexiera, which would seem to be a requirement. Dunn might be nice too for DH.

2008-04-15 16:59:59
28.   fansince77
That was a terrible 0-2 pitch up at the chest - that's more than a couple that Pettitte has gotten away with...Hope he comes down in the zone.
2008-04-15 17:01:17
29.   williamnyy23
Awful pitching by Pettitte tonight. The Yankees have to start winning a few games in a row.
2008-04-15 17:02:24
30.   fansince77
Yeah, he really doesn't look very good. Alot of hard hit balls. This with the combination of Yankee giveaway at bats worries me.
2008-04-15 17:05:48
31.   51cq24
27 i really don't want to watch matsui in left field. we might just have to endure it, but it will not be fun.
2008-04-15 17:05:56
32.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
26 ALL live games blacked out on here in Japan, for reasons unknown..can only watch on archive...still trying to find out why...
2008-04-15 17:12:07
33.   ny2ca2dc
OK boy-o's, keep it coming.
2008-04-15 17:13:38
34.   rbj
I believe the problems are due to Bud Selig & MLB's cunning plan to shoot itself in the foot. They certainly do not want a younger generation raised on computers etc. to access any game they want to after having paid for the access. They only want us old farts who only watch on tv.
2008-04-15 17:13:55
35.   fansince77
Great result from HIDEKI's "chopsticks" swing
2008-04-15 17:14:37
36.   ny2ca2dc
worm turning
2008-04-15 17:14:49
37.   ChrisS
26 Cool, if that's the case then I can watch day games at the office because my office's IP is Baltimore.

Nice ARod!

2008-04-15 17:14:49
38.   ChrisS
26 Cool, if that's the case then I can watch day games at the office because my office's IP is Baltimore.

Nice ARod!

2008-04-15 17:15:06
39.   fansince77
I love to see that hustle from AROD - no hesitation / totally focused on the game.
2008-04-15 17:19:51
40.   RIYank
Not a lot of gametalk today, huh?
2008-04-15 17:21:58
41.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
40 Everyone watching Law & Order on TNT? I heard they show that sometimes..
2008-04-15 17:23:50
42.   Chyll Will
40 Nah. Just tired...
2008-04-15 17:24:02
43.   ChrisS
40 I'm hesitant, for some reason I've been putting in an awful lot of double posts lately.
2008-04-15 17:27:43
44.   RIYank
The Toaster seems a little rusty, too.
2008-04-15 17:28:21
45.   rbj
40 , 41 It wouldn't have anything to do with today being Tax Day now would it?
2008-04-15 17:29:52
46.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
45 what is this "Tax" you speak of?
2008-04-15 17:30:43
47.   rbj
46 Income
2008-04-15 17:30:50
48.   RIYank
45 Not in my case. Mine were done a while ago.
2008-04-15 17:30:51
49.   Schteeve
14 Nah, I think it's Hughes, there's an off day mixed in there

The rotation is:


Pettitte tonight
Wang 4/16
Moose 4/17
Hughes 4/18
Kennedy 4/19
Pettitte 4/20
Off Day 4/21
Wang 4/22
Moose 4/23
Hughes 4/24

2008-04-15 17:34:24
50.   williamnyy23
I hope Jeter is ok...he was jogging into 2B there.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-04-15 17:34:52
51.   rbj
Yeah, I got my refunds back months ago. I was actually able to tuck a few dollars into my savings account. Sadly, most went to pay off Christmas.
2008-04-15 17:34:57
52.   SF Yanks
I'll say, "Yay!" for everyone here.
2008-04-15 17:35:45
53.   ChrisS
my goodness, a 2-out RBI?

Who are these guys?

2008-04-15 17:36:13
54.   RIYank
That was such a beautiful AB. God, I love that. Must drive Jackson insane.
2008-04-15 17:36:24
55.   SF Yanks
"Yay!" again for everyone.
2008-04-15 17:36:51
56.   ChrisS
TWO 2-out RBI!

I like it.

2008-04-15 17:36:53
57.   51cq24
50 looked fine there
2008-04-15 17:37:11
58.   ny2ca2dc
Hey, I DO recognize these guys. They've been the Yankees all along?!!!!11!1!11!
2008-04-15 17:37:49
59.   51cq24
where are you going bobby?
2008-04-15 17:38:36
60.   RIYank
53 No kidding. And scoring two runs with a walk and two singles???
2008-04-15 17:39:05
61.   ny2ca2dc
Check out Pete Abe's post, does he not know the score?!?! Talk about confirmation of the beat writers snoozing. (also, gross CS Bob)

"UPDATE, 8:33 p.m.: Nice at-bat by Jeter there, working nine pitches then driving in Damon. … Jackson is not long for this tilt as he's at 90 pitches. … Andy Pettitte has put nine runners on base in four innings and somehow allowed no runs."

2008-04-15 17:39:16
62.   ms october
50 57 yeah - i mean i think he's being careful - but could go harder if needed

51 ugh - i filed a few months ago - but i'm still bitter about oweing ma state taxes

2008-04-15 17:40:21
63.   RIYank
Damn. Just having to pitch to Godzilla might have finished Jackson. Think he'll start the sixth?
2008-04-15 17:42:10
64.   ms october
62 i mean owing

61 saw that too - i was trying to think if somehow it was an unearned run and that's what he meant (but it's not) - but yeah beat writers snoozing - or being hypnotized by those blooming cowbells

2008-04-15 17:43:29
65.   RIYank
Wow, two really good innings for Andy.
2008-04-15 17:44:35
66.   RIYank
So 62 64 why are you bitter about that?
2008-04-15 17:46:42
67.   RIYank
Whoa. Great pitches. Location.
2008-04-15 17:50:04
68.   ms october
66 i guess i shouldn't be because i am a person who believes in a lot of gvt programs - but every tax season i have had to pay a lot of state taxes - and since i am still a grad student and don't make that much money yet, i am not sure why i always owe
2008-04-15 17:52:25
69.   RIYank
Oh, I get it. You just mean MA has high taxes. But they're lower than ours. Small comfort?

Sign of a dull game: Banterers are more interested in talking about taxes.

(Only it's a pretty good game. So maybe it's a sign of April 15th.)

2008-04-15 17:53:25
70.   51cq24
pretty nice play there
2008-04-15 17:53:35
71.   ny2ca2dc
That man Carlos Pena.
2008-04-15 17:54:53
72.   rbj
68 Welcome to the real world. Personally I want less government and less taxes
2008-04-15 17:55:05
73.   mehmattski
I'm here, just watching on and off between reading papers. And the Yankees only seem to score runs when I'm not watching, so maybe I should just turn off the game...
2008-04-15 17:55:53
74.   Schteeve
If the Yankees lose this game, I'm not watching baseball ever again.
2008-04-15 17:55:56
75.   ms october
69 sorry riyank. guess someone always has it worse. i thought gas in ma was high until i was in california last week - good god.

71 oh what could have been

2008-04-15 18:01:48
76.   tommyl
Apparently Hawkins has switched to 22. Those fans should be ashamed of themselves.
2008-04-15 18:02:26
77.   RIYank
Okay, Andy, one more for us, please.
2008-04-15 18:04:04
78.   Schteeve
76 Wait a minute, Hawkins has the temerity to wear Clemens' and Cano's old number??? BOOOO! BOOOO!
2008-04-15 18:04:22
79.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
72 More govenment programs, less defense spending please! And money for pubilc baseball fields..i remember when my local field was closed down because there was no govt funding available..
2008-04-15 18:04:28
80.   SF Yanks
Is it just me or did it look like Jeter was running in sand?
2008-04-15 18:04:42
81.   rbj
76 Wow. That's just Red Sox fan level of stupidness. I really like Paul and all, and there's a decent argument for retiring 21. But don't act like @ssholes to your own team. (Unless it's something like Pavano)
2008-04-15 18:05:15
82.   RIYank
Ugh. Damnit.
2008-04-15 18:05:39
83.   ny2ca2dc
75 Don't even bring up the fact that the Yanks just missed Pena's breakout. Oops. Damnit

Now I'm really wondering why ARod went to second on the previous groundout instead of third....

76 That's a damn embarrassing shame...

2008-04-15 18:06:47
84.   Schteeve
I like lots of government programs that are run efficiently, and have actual measurable objectives and KPI, and aren't influenced unduly by lobbyists and special pleading. So in other words, I hate all forms of govt programs.
2008-04-15 18:07:23
85.   monkeypants
72 79 et al.

How about less potentially contentious talk of politics, and more baseball banter?

2008-04-15 18:07:43
86.   RIYank
I'd let Andy start the seventh, he looked strong. The walk was bad, but the rest of the inning he deserved to do better. (If Joba were in town I'd have a different view.)
2008-04-15 18:08:52
87.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
81 where is ol' Carl anyway these days?
84 good point! just funny how all the pols who rage against "big government" oversaw such a massive increase in spending the last 8 years
2008-04-15 18:09:34
88.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
85 You got it. Let's tell Pavano jokes..can anyone start??
2008-04-15 18:10:30
89.   ny2ca2dc
85 Here here, replacing "potentially" with "likely".

86 Andy at 89 pitches, so I would agree, Given no Joba and possibly tired Mo, and no Bruney (or Traber?)... Yikes.

2008-04-15 18:10:36
90.   monkeypants
My math skills are failing me: I can't figure out who replaced Joba (bereavement list) on the 25-man roster. Not Moeller, he replaced Betemit, right?

I've looked at the roster list--who am I missing?

2008-04-15 18:11:09
91.   RIYank
Sox threatening in the seventh. That heralded Indian bullpen...
2008-04-15 18:11:24
92.   ny2ca2dc
90 Albaladejo
2008-04-15 18:11:51
93.   RIYank
90 Albaladejo, I believe.
2008-04-15 18:12:13
94.   RIYank
Oh, man. 27 seconds.
2008-04-15 18:12:26
95.   ny2ca2dc
Holy shit he walked the 4th string emergency-signed-after-cut-from-nationals catcher. Love it. Wack a homer Johnny, prove me wrong.
2008-04-15 18:12:52
96.   ny2ca2dc
94 I'm like a cat.
2008-04-15 18:13:00
97.   RIYank
We must have the best BUBUC in baseball, huh?
2008-04-15 18:14:30
98.   Chyll Will
96 But you forgot one thing...
2008-04-15 18:15:18
99.   Schteeve
Let's go calm eyes.
2008-04-15 18:15:23
100.   RIYank
So ny2ca2dc, is your name a bit of autobiography? It always makes me think of a really tough double-play.

Sweet. I like this Howell dude now.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-04-15 18:15:30
101.   rbj
85 , 88 you got it. I generally shy away from politics anyhow these day, too contentious.

Pavano jokes. Ok, here's one:

Carl Pavano.

2008-04-15 18:16:16
102.   quacks25
97 actually best BUBUBUc
2008-04-15 18:16:38
103.   ny2ca2dc
The YES graphic for Hawkins has him as #21 still. Guess they didn't get the message...

Another nice one Derek.

98 Oh boy...

2008-04-15 18:16:58
104.   Schteeve
100 I never got that that was what ny2's name was all about.

I have dibs on ny2dc2sf2chi

2008-04-15 18:17:44
105.   monkeypants
92 93 Hah! I totally forgot he had left the team--after his 3 or 4 inning relief gig, right? Thanks.
2008-04-15 18:18:09
106.   ms october
85 et al - my bad - i didn't intend for that to happen

97 but i hope flaherty is right that molina being in the bullpen is a good sign that he'll be back soon

2008-04-15 18:19:21
107.   ny2ca2dc
100 You got it.
2008-04-15 18:19:50
108.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
101 perfect...

btw, is CLeveland even trying to win?

2008-04-15 18:20:00
109.   RIYank
That was not a characteristically B.A. AB.
2008-04-15 18:20:59
110.   RIYank
Wait, why is he a BUBUBUc? I lost track of a BU somewhere.
2008-04-15 18:22:11
111.   rbj
Gosh, mine would be nj2ny2ct2ny2or2wa2ny2va2sc2oh.
I think I'll stick with rbj
2008-04-15 18:22:17
112.   ny2ca2dc
110 I had considered Frankie Cervelli the 3rd stringer.

Wow, ugly from Abreu and ARod.

2008-04-15 18:22:22
113.   RIYank
Ouch. A-Rod's last two at-bats have consisted of six strikes.
2008-04-15 18:23:41
114.   quacks25
Molina is the first BU, then the second BU is Covelier (something like that) the Rays broke his wrist in spring training and Moeller is the 3rd BU!
2008-04-15 18:23:51
115.   ms october
108 they are reliving the alcs
2008-04-15 18:23:54
116.   Chyll Will
107 When I was in DC, the green line started at U Street. It's been a while, but I bet they still haven't replaced any of the empty lots along 14th Street NW...
2008-04-15 18:24:36
117.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
113 trade him for Chone Figgins, we need a exceedingly dull this morning, game not too hot either...
2008-04-15 18:25:17
118.   51cq24
hawkins is still 21
2008-04-15 18:27:09
119.   Chyll Will
110 Because he's chicken?

111 I used to like chemistry, but those kind of formulas eventually drove me to filmmaking >;)

2008-04-15 18:27:40
120.   rbj
Sweet, Andy.

So is 42 available for tonight's game?

2008-04-15 18:27:44
121.   weeping for brunnhilde
I love Andy Pettitte.

Just love him.

2008-04-15 18:28:02
122.   OldYanksFan
Man... Andy is a survivor.
2008-04-15 18:29:12
123.   ms october
119 haha

man who would have thought pettite could get through 7 after the fisrt 2 innings
just can't have too many clunkers for wang or him this year

2008-04-15 18:29:19
124.   quacks25
Great Game for Pettite! our starters are starting to look good
2008-04-15 18:29:42
125.   monkeypants
Two run game, Andy at 100 pitches. Does Girardi hand it off to the BP or try to milk the 8th out of Andy?
2008-04-15 18:30:27
126.   SF Yanks
Ugh, Worthless is warming.
2008-04-15 18:30:35
127.   RIYank
It looked like one of those Pettitte tightrope games early on. But man he finished strong.
2008-04-15 18:31:23
128.   ny2ca2dc
Nice Andy! Our Horse.

111 Detail omitted for brevity ;) But you got me beat no matter.

116 I used to live on 15th & Mass (btw L & N sts). They most definitely have replaced a lot of the empty lots. There's a Whole Foods (and surrounding yuppie neighborhood of which I was a part, until we wanted to buy and couldn't afford it) at 14 & P by Logan Circle, and U street from about 10th to Adams Morgan is hopping. You wouldn't recognize the place. I've only been here 3 years, and it's changed a lot.

2008-04-15 18:31:25
129.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
126 WHAT?!??
2008-04-15 18:31:37
130.   monkeypants
118 Yeah, Hawkins could wear 42 tonight and get booed for dishonoring Mo!
2008-04-15 18:33:02
131.   quacks25
126 whos worthless? (for us in front of a computer screen)
2008-04-15 18:33:12
132.   OldYanksFan
Farnsworth up for the 8th?
Can someobe please call me when the 9th starts?
2008-04-15 18:33:20
133.   RIYank
Classic Jason.
2008-04-15 18:33:46
134.   RIYank
131 Farnsworthless.
2008-04-15 18:33:51
135.   monkeypants
I'm not so sure about Giambi this year, but if he keeps this up, he is going to have one funky stat line at the end of the season.
2008-04-15 18:33:52
136.   ny2ca2dc
132 Just set an alarm for 45 minutes from now.
2008-04-15 18:34:15
137.   Chyll Will
124 See how much a working offense changes things?
2008-04-15 18:34:38
138.   Alex Belth
That was just a great top of the seventh by Andy. Flash was saying how this is one of the gut it out games, ones that pitchers often appreciate more than the ones when they have their good stuff. After the downer in the top of the inning, leaving the bases juiced like that, Andy was no bullshit, went right after them, and got out of the inning, zip zip zip. It was great.
2008-04-15 18:34:41
139.   rbj
Yes, hold Jason on, because he's such a threat to steal.
2008-04-15 18:37:56
140.   Jeb
Howdy Banterers. Looks like Gary Glitter is pitching again.

You guys should check out Cardboard Gods on the Toaster -- great picture of Kelly Leak over there.

2008-04-15 18:39:45
141.   ny2ca2dc
Wouldn't it be funny if Moeller hits a homer here. I'm calling it: HR just sneaks over the cutout in left.
2008-04-15 18:39:47
142.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
140 Wasn't Gary Glitter convicted of child molestation in Cambodia or Laos??? What a bizzare and awful story..
2008-04-15 18:39:50
143.   monkeypants
I guess you don't PR for Jason with Moeller (low chance of a hit) batting?
2008-04-15 18:39:59
144.   tommyl
103 Think it might be starting tomorrow night, not sure. I read it on Kepner's blog.
2008-04-15 18:40:44
145.   monkeypants
143 The walk rendering my question "mute."
2008-04-15 18:40:56
146.   RIYank
Good lord.
2008-04-15 18:41:26
147.   Jeb
142 yeah, but the Rays were really really hurting for relief pitching.
2008-04-15 18:42:41
148.   rbj
I hate leaving the bases full. It's such a waste.
2008-04-15 18:43:16
149.   quacks25
Seems the yanks dont like hitting when the bases are loaded! thats the 3rd batter tonight!
2008-04-15 18:43:38
150.   ny2ca2dc
144 Thanks for the pointer, T-Kep (shoot me) had a nice (as always) write up of the situation.

Damnit. If Farns blows this...

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-04-15 18:43:56
151.   rbj
142 He also did time in England for possession of child pr0n. Sick man, keep your kids away from him.
2008-04-15 18:44:04
152.   RIYank
148 This is not your game, then.

I don't mind it when we've already scored four runs in the inning. And the sixth (wasn't it?) was worse, because we had 'em loaded with just one out.

2008-04-15 18:44:24
153.   ny2ca2dc
CLE coming back
2008-04-15 18:44:58
154.   RIYank
Leaving bases loaded with a two run lead and then, enter Kyle F.

I have bad dreams that begin like this.

2008-04-15 18:45:06
155.   ny2ca2dc
153 Shat, tied 3-3 end of 7th.
2008-04-15 18:45:08
156.   tommyl
Did Krazy Kyle just throw a curveball?
2008-04-15 18:45:27
157.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
151 Do they still play his endlessly annoying "Rock-n-Roll" songs at stadiums and arenas?

tell me it's not Farnsworth coming in..

2008-04-15 18:45:59
158.   mehmattski
Seriously, why doesn't Kyle Farnsworth get Lasik? He seems like so much worse of a pitcher since he started wearing glasses...
2008-04-15 18:47:07
159.   tommyl
Here's all you need to know about why Kyle is hittable. Gameday data: Pitch, slider, PFX 2"

2"?! On a slider? Seriously?

2008-04-15 18:47:19
160.   Jeb
hooray for our team. I was thinking we needed a little Farnsworth added to the stew. Smoke 'em inside, Farnsy.
2008-04-15 18:47:47
161.   Chyll Will
128 Whew, Logan Circle was no joke back then. 14th and P, there used to be a Safeway or something over there, iirc. Anything below Florida Avenue and west of 15th was yuppieland or old money, either way; still I loved the lush greenery over there. Adams Morgan was the international hot spot back when I was there, lots of restaurants and such.

I could reminisce all night about DC, except that I thoroughly hated it when I was there, even though I considered it my second home for years. Favorite place in DC: Georgetown and the Lincoln Memorial at night.

2008-04-15 18:48:18
162.   monkeypants
150 I only just read that Hawkins would give up #21. Too bad really (IMO)--the bullies win.
2008-04-15 18:48:23
163.   ny2ca2dc
Hey look, the Tigers won.


2008-04-15 18:49:18
164.   tommyl
That was Kyle Farnsworth??? Where's the baserunners? The walks? What's the fun in that?
2008-04-15 18:49:22
165.   rbj
Is that Kyle, or his evil twin?
2008-04-15 18:49:52
166.   RIYank
159 Interesting. Does he just not have the grip, or is there something weird about the delivery?

Anyway, he certainly had good stuff that inning.

2008-04-15 18:50:02
167.   Mattpat11
I'm afraid this outing bought Farnsworth another month of being a late inning reliver.
2008-04-15 18:50:27
168.   tommyl
Does anyone understand the difference between PFX and Break?
2008-04-15 18:50:42
169.   monkeypants
I think that gamecast is broken or something. Was that Farnsworth (???) pitching the eighth?
2008-04-15 18:51:11
170.   RIYank
I can't get Gameday to load. I want to see the PfX data for Krazy Kyle's inning.
2008-04-15 18:51:34
171.   Aviezer
I'm not sure if the stats back me up, but Fransworth in 1 inning w/o pitching on back to back days, seems almost always dominant.
2008-04-15 18:52:08
172.   51cq24
169 was farnsworth pitching 1-2-3 with the help of a nice play up the middle by cano
2008-04-15 18:53:32
173.   monkeypants
172 Well I'll be!
2008-04-15 18:53:49
174.   ms october
168 maybe this helps - saw this on the griddle

The "Pitch-f/x" value is currently defined as the measurement of the distance between the location of the actual pitch thrown over the plate, and the calculated location of a ball thrown by the pitcher in the same way, with no spin; this is the value we provided in Enhanced Gameday last season as "Break". The new Break value, which we feel is more appropriate for the common understanding of the term, is defined as the measurement of the greatest distance between the trajectory of the pitch at any point between the release point and the front of home plate, and the straight line path from the release point and the front of home plate. By this definition, a Barry Zito curveball will have a much greater Break value than a Brad Penny fastball.

2008-04-15 18:53:52
175.   ny2ca2dc
161 You're on the money with Lincoln, such a sight. Even in the daytime. Though they block off the back area, so you can't sit back there and watch the river - which I'm told was a great thing to do.

Mo sighting. So with Latroy warming earlier than Farns, yet not coming in, does that mean Hawk is lower on the depth chart than Farns? Not that it matters

2008-04-15 18:54:15
176.   tommyl
168 I'll answer my own question. Apparently PFX is the difference between the pitch thrown, and a pitch thrown with the same release point and speed, but with no spin. So again, Kyle had a 2" PFX on a slider? Did it break at all?
2008-04-15 18:54:27
177.   RIYank
Nice to have Jeter back. Even if he did kind of maybe cost a run today.
2008-04-15 18:54:29
178.   Chyll Will
168 Is it similar to the difference between KFC and Kentucky Fried Chicken?
2008-04-15 18:55:13
179.   tommyl
174 Thanks, as a physicist, the "break" is a useless number. No thrown ball ever travels on a straight line, so I'm not sure what its measuring.
2008-04-15 18:55:35
180.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
171 How valuable is that really though??
175 Best DC site..VACE Italian deli on Connecticut Ave, near the zoo...still dream about their sandwiches
2008-04-15 18:56:21
181.   Jeb
162 Monkey, Hawkins switching jersey numbers is kind of like spending a bunch of Cash to dig up a jersey at the new park -- ignorance and superstition reign supreme.
2008-04-15 18:56:33
182.   tommyl
Mmmmm...A-Rod jack would be nice here. Save Mo for tomorrow night.
2008-04-15 18:56:35
183.   Mattpat11
I know that most of you think saves are meaningless, and I tend to agree, but it is nice for Mo to the person to see that he's going to pass Lee Smith this year.
2008-04-15 18:57:51
184.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
9 walks for the boys today..
2008-04-15 18:58:00
185.   RIYank
176 Can you tell exactly how it's breaking? 2" downward isn't too bad. Esp. if the pitcher has a 4-seam, because the slider can look like a 4-seam and then the downward break is more effective.

I think.

2008-04-15 18:58:05
186.   ny2ca2dc
Time for ARod to redeem himself for the 3 pitch K with the bases loaded.
2008-04-15 18:59:04
187.   Chyll Will
175 If you go across the river to Alexandria; I don't remember which road goes along the riverside, but at a certain point you can see three of the monuments lined up like they were planets on a learning chart. At night, it's totally surreal.
2008-04-15 18:59:12
188.   Alex Belth
Funny how varied a night can be. A Rod hit the ball hard his first two at bats. Then looked lost as he whiffed the next two times up against the lefty. He took three closed pitches the fifth time up, then missed the dead red heater and popped out.
2008-04-15 18:59:29
189.   williamnyy23
Yankees can't blow another chance here.
2008-04-15 18:59:44
190.   tommyl
185 I don't quite understand the data. Looking at Glover, it seems he has huge PFX numbers on his fastball, but lower on his cutter and offspeed pitches. That makes no sense.
2008-04-15 19:01:18
191.   ny2ca2dc
190 I don't get the explainations of the two values, nor where the hell they came up with em... I prefer BP's straight X & Y, + & -
2008-04-15 19:01:23
192.   RIYank
190 Sure it does -- his fastball rises. That can be a big break.
2008-04-15 19:01:39
193.   51cq24
185 plus the change in speed
2008-04-15 19:02:19
194.   quacks25
between last night and tonight around 25 hits and like 12/13 walks and we just cannot seem to hit with RISP!?! its an issue for games when pettite and Wang dont pitch gems!
2008-04-15 19:03:01
195.   Chyll Will
188 You think he's gripping the bat too hard again? That's what I think...
2008-04-15 19:03:29
196.   ny2ca2dc
195 that's what she said.
2008-04-15 19:04:11
197.   monkeypants
Well, at least they didn't leave the bases loaded.
2008-04-15 19:04:31
198.   williamnyy23
That's 6 AWFUL at bats over the last three innings. That's shameful for any offense. The Yankees may still win the game, but the pitiful approach with men on base just cost the team a fresh Mariano heading into the Boston series. With Joba not available, that's very significant.
2008-04-15 19:04:41
199.   RIYank
194 Last night was the only game we've won in which we didn't hold the opposition to two runs. That's a little scary.
2008-04-15 19:04:50
200.   SF Yanks
Fastballs cannot rise, but I think you were joking.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-04-15 19:05:09
201.   Mattpat11
Mo going for save 448
2008-04-15 19:05:16
202.   SF Yanks
2008-04-15 19:06:18
203.   SF Yanks
Lets go Moses!
2008-04-15 19:07:08
204.   tommyl
192 Actually no, as its defined a rising fastball would have very little "break". Break is defined as the difference between the actual trajectory and a straight line from the release point to homeplate. Since a "rising" fastball just falls a bit less than a normal fastball, it should have lower break.

Now, as I read it, PFX is the difference between the actual pitch, and the same pitch thrown with no spin on the ball. Hence, I'd expect a curveball to have a very high PFX (since it spins a lot), and a fastball to have a low one. Yet it seems to be opposite.

2008-04-15 19:07:31
205.   OldYanksFan
The SHIFT beats Giambi again. How frustrating!
2008-04-15 19:08:00
206.   seattleyank
I bet Cashman has counted out Giambi's buyout money and has it sitting on his desk, ready to hand over the minute the season ends.
2008-04-15 19:08:19
207.   RIYank
SF, 4-seam fastballs are rising fastballs. They don't actually rise, but they fall slower than a 'flat' pitch would.
2008-04-15 19:09:18
208.   ny2ca2dc
Sawx still tied at 3 with Cle, bottom 8th. Would be nice if they lose in the 15th while burning out their bullpen.

We have another case of anal fissures. Nice job Mo.

2008-04-15 19:09:30
209.   williamnyy23
That's a play Jeter should make.
2008-04-15 19:10:19
210.   51cq24
204 that's also how i would define "break."

207 you could also throw an underhand fastball that actually does rise.

2008-04-15 19:10:34
211.   RIYank
204 Right, sorry, by 'break' in this case I meant what they're now calling 'pFX'.

But a 4-seam fastball can have a large pfx, because it could cross the plate much higher than a (theoretical) no spin pitch would. Right? And in that case it would, as you say, have a very small break.

2008-04-15 19:11:11
212.   SF Yanks
207 Right, I was unaware if you knew that but judging by your previous posts I came to the conclusion that you were smarter than the average bear :)
2008-04-15 19:11:28
213.   tommyl
211 But why the hell does a slider have almost no PFX? That makes no sense to me at all.
2008-04-15 19:11:43
214.   monkeypants
207 Pardon my physics ignorance. Is there any way (theoretically) to throw a ball with such spin (back spin maybe?) that it would actually rise? I know this doesn't happen in the real world; I'm talking mythbusters-robot-pitcher stuff here.
2008-04-15 19:12:03
215.   Mattpat11
Save number 448 for Mariano Rivera.

I don't know if they have a hard hit ball against him all year.

2008-04-15 19:12:14
216.   RIYank
That good Mo feeling.
2008-04-15 19:12:51
217.   51cq24
211 but presumably by no spin they mean normal spin, ie a 4 seamer. otherwise it would be a knuckleball as the control.
2008-04-15 19:14:46
218.   51cq24
213 because the downward "movement" is mostly a function of the change in speed, which wouldn't be reflected in this pfx stat.
2008-04-15 19:15:00
219.   RIYank
213 Yeah, I can't figure that.
Have you looked at the sliders thrown by good pitchers?
2008-04-15 19:15:14
220.   williamnyy23
The Wild Card is not coming out of the Central.
2008-04-15 19:15:43
221.   Chyll Will
214 I'm thinking that has more to do with release point than spin, but spin might add something to it because of the release point?
2008-04-15 19:16:11
222.   Aviezer
210, not b/c of spin
2008-04-15 19:16:19
223.   Jeb
220 it's a bit early to make that prediction.
2008-04-15 19:16:25
224.   RIYank
217 No, I think they mean the trajectory the ball would have in a vacuum. 'No spin' would be a wicked knuckler in real life, you're right.
2008-04-15 19:16:32
225.   SF Yanks
213 Maybe it was just a mistake?
2008-04-15 19:16:46
226.   tommyl
217 I think they mean, what I'd have a freshman physics class calculate, i.e. ignoring wind resistance. The basic parabola trajectory. Maybe they include a bit of drag (so it slows down as it approaches the plate) but they are ignoring knuckleball like effects.
2008-04-15 19:18:43
227.   monkeypants
221 Got me, I was an arts major! Seriously, though--I was assuming a ball through straight, on a level plane. Is there a way to throw it in such a way (ie, with spin) that creates lift, which would overcome the amount the ball would fall naturally due to gravity?
2008-04-15 19:18:59
228.   tommyl
218 Again, no I disagree. That is already taken into account in the "control" trajectory of the PFX data. Throw a ball in a vacuum at two different speeds, yes the slower ball falls more. But the point is, the slider or curveball pfx should tell you precisely the difference that the spin in the real world is causing. Hence, more spin, more time for spin to act (slower pitch) should equal a larger pfx.
2008-04-15 19:19:51
229.   williamnyy23
223 It's never "too early" to make a prediction. Both the Tigers and Indians look so fundamentally flawed that I can't see both having very good seasons.
2008-04-15 19:19:55
230.   tommyl
Damnit, as a working physicist I hate crap like this. This is going to keep me up all night when I should be thinking about fibrations.
2008-04-15 19:20:24
231.   SF Yanks
228 I really think it was a mistake.
2008-04-15 19:21:11
232.   williamnyy23
Manny is up with 2nd and 3rd and 2 outs. Wedge is walking him. The Indians announcers are saying this is a no-brainer. I wonder what Girardi thinks :)
2008-04-15 19:21:32
233.   monkeypants
213 How do "they" know that it was a slider? Presumably some person determines that because of the speed or the location or whatever. They could be wrong. It's like the silly display at many stadiums that claims to identify the last pitch thrown ("The scoreboard said that was a curveball...that's funny, I thought it looked like the gyroball from up here in the stands...").
2008-04-15 19:21:37
234.   RIYank
227 You would have to get air pressure to be greater than the weight of the ball. It's theoretically possible, I think. The total air pressure on the ball is several pounds, so if you could get the spin enough to cut the pressure on the top way down the lift could work like the wing of an airplane.
2008-04-15 19:21:46
235.   tommyl
231 It was for multiple pitchers over multiple innings.
2008-04-15 19:22:03
236.   51cq24
228 well if that's what they mean they have to be a lot clearer. but even so, i think you overestimate the added spin on a slower pitch. most of what we see as movement is that it's a slower pitch.
2008-04-15 19:22:26
237.   SF Yanks
232 Well, that just made Giardi look a bit better.
2008-04-15 19:22:39
238.   williamnyy23
232 And Youkilis gets a hit again. Maybe it doesn't matter after all.
2008-04-15 19:22:42
239.   RIYank
233 Yeah, it's determined by the speed and the pfx, I'm sure. Oh, and the direction of the break.
2008-04-15 19:23:01
240.   tommyl
234 No, its not a pressure effect, its from vortices that form. At least that's how an airfoil works. Don't ask me more, I'm a string theorist, air resistance in the real world isn't something I worry about often ;).
2008-04-15 19:23:07
241.   SF Yanks
235 Oh, that's weird. Beats me...
2008-04-15 19:24:30
242.   tommyl
236 I think I'm just going on the assumption, more spin=more break no matter the spead. I'd assumed a curveball or slider has more spin on it (and more "curving" spin) than a fastball.

At any rate, this is clearly confusing, I wish they'd provide several examples and how to work through them.

2008-04-15 19:24:56
243.   RIYank
Here's a guess, tommyl. The slider has mostly topspin, and it doesn't spin much. The reason it's effective is that it looks like a 4-seam coming out of the pitcher's hand. So the displacement is very large compared to what the batter expects.
But that's just a guess.
2008-04-15 19:25:31
244.   51cq24
what are all those people doing on the field right now?
2008-04-15 19:25:54
245.   pistolpete
And we all know Cleveland will get their act together just in time to play the Yankees...
2008-04-15 19:26:49
246.   williamnyy23
245 Hopefully Borowski will be off the DL by then.
2008-04-15 19:26:49
247.   tommyl
243 Perhaps...but I'd have assumed a fastball, being a relatively straight pitch is the closest to the "control" baseline than any other pitch. The fact that that seems to not be true is odd. If that's really the case, then I either question the methodology of pFx or I'm curious to learn something new.
2008-04-15 19:27:41
248.   Chyll Will
227 Look at it from a billiards point of view then. If you put enough backspin on the ball, it ostensibly would break really low, as on a flat surface it appears to slow down (I think it actually loses inertia, if that's the way to say it)... the only way to make the ball rise would be to apply a quick strike underneath at a sharp angle to "skip" the ball, a nice trick I seem to accomplish with more success than a regular shot for some reason... that's why I think it's more about release point, but I've been known to be horribly wrong.
2008-04-15 19:28:08
249.   SF Yanks
Wow, I don't think it's possible to have a pitch be even MORE over the plate than that one. What could you possibly be sitting on not to swing at that?
2008-04-15 19:28:54
250.   RIYank
240 I thought the break was mainly due to the Bernoulli effect.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-04-15 19:29:54
251.   51cq24
247 that's what doesn't make sense. no matter what a straight fastball should have the lowest pfx. i think we can all agree that it isn't clear what they mean.
2008-04-15 19:30:09
252.   Chyll Will
244 the Chicken Dance?
2008-04-15 19:32:30
253.   mehmattski
252 [wacky dance]
2008-04-15 19:33:14
254.   RIYank
251 No, it makes sense to me. The 4-seam fastball has a big pfx because it crosses the plate higher than a theoretical breakless pitch would. It has backspin.
2008-04-15 19:33:21
255.   Chyll Will
250 Frankly, I think it has more to do with the Kurtis Blow effect >;)
2008-04-15 19:34:09
256.   Mattpat11
Girardi is talking up Farnsworth. This is not good.
2008-04-15 19:36:42
257.   pistolpete
256 Oh calm down, Joba will be back soon enough.
2008-04-15 19:36:48
258.   Chyll Will
256 Could be building up trade value?
2008-04-15 19:37:36
259.   RIYank
Farnsworth just pitched very well tonight, so Girardi is giving him credit. (Convincing myself.)
2008-04-15 19:41:23
260.   Mattpat11
257 I've heard this song before.

258 That one too.

2008-04-15 19:45:53
261.   Schteeve
Farnsworth is not technically worthless. He tends to have good outings and bad outings. He's not reliable but he does have outings where he's really good.

In case anyone is interested, I've been tracking each game this season on a pitch by pitch basis, I have Kennedy's start up on my blog right now and will be putting up the rest of the games in the next few days.

No analysis, but it might be of interest.

2008-04-15 19:50:08
262.   Mattpat11
261 We could match Farnsworth's "production" for alot less money and grief

But we're proving some kind of point, I suppose.

2008-04-15 19:58:16
263.   tommyl
250 I'm not sure, but I think the "textbook" definition of flight is not quite right. Take what I say with a grain of salt, I'm recalling an offhand riff by an old professor for about 7 years ago. You can phrase the question this way, when a plane turns upside down, how can it still fly if its just that the shape of the wing makes the pressure on the curved side different from the flat side?
2008-04-15 20:08:03
264.   51cq24
254 i may be wrong, but i really don't think the backspin has that much of an effect. a ball thrown with no spin or wind resistance or whatever at the same velocity should be about the same as a 4 seam fastball. the velocity is what keeps it up.
2008-04-15 20:10:45
265.   pistolpete
257 What 'song' are you referring to? Joba will be back by the end of the week, and Farnsworth will be back in his usual "every other day in the 7th inning" role.

Then you can sleep at night. ;-)

2008-04-15 20:34:02
266.   Zack
253 Nice!

All in all, a nice game tonight. Seems like one of those Pettitte outings I come to expect, where he's on the edge of total disaster all game and yet goes 7 only giving up a few runs and gets the W. And very nice to see the O alive to games in a row, somewhat at least. Too bad they are leaving the friendly warm confines of the Trop

2008-04-15 20:49:17
267.   Mattpat11
265 I don't think Kyle Farnsworth is good enough for that job either.
2008-04-15 20:53:08
268.   Andre
farnsworth can be good for something. If I make a $5 bet with someone every time he comes in that the opposing team will score a run, I'll probably make some decent dough by the end of the season due to his reliability ; )

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