Baseball Toaster was unplugged on February 4, 2009.
Last week’s news regarding the death of the Hall of Fame Game came as no surprise, considering that strong rumors of its demise had been floating for weeks. Still, the news is no less disconcerting; the game, while only an exhibition, has meant so much to fans in upstate New York (many of whom cannot afford to attend major leagues games in person), not to mention the benefits to the Cooperstown economy. It has also provided a natural link between the Hall of Fame—the repository of baseball history—and the current-day game as it exists at the major league level.
The Hall of Fame and MLB are taking the bullet for the termination of the game, and that’s really not fair. Some internet posters immediately tried to blame Hall of Fame president Dale Petroskey, perhaps because of their dislike of him over the Tim Robbins/Bull Durham incident of a few years ago. Well, nothing could be further from the truth. Petroskey, along with just about every high-ranking Hall of Fame official, wanted this game to continue. The game promotes the Hall of Fame while providing an economic boost of about $30,000 to the local economy. As the saying goes, what’s not to like? The end of the Hall of Fame Game—that’s the last thing that Petroskey and other Hall officials wanted to see happen.
MLB has tried to absorb some of the heat, citing the scheduling difficulties created by inter-league play and the lack of available off days during the regular season. Scheduling problems have certainly created large roadblocks, but that’s largely because of contemporary major league players, who have made a habit of complaining about the trip to Cooperstown. Even if a team has a day off and happens to be somewhere east of the Mississippi, the team’s players still have to approve participating in the game. And that was becoming increasingly difficult, because of the growing number of players who wanted nothing to do with traveling to upstate New York during one of their scheduled days off. Now, let’s keep in mind that a player might have to play in one, maybe two Hall of Fame games during the course of his entire career. That was apparently too much of an inconvenience, weighing more heavily than the wonderful public relations that the HOF Game created for baseball on the whole.
The termination of the Hall of Fame Game represents the opposite of public relations. The decision to end the game after this year’s June matchup between the Cubs and Padres has created such a firestorm in upstate New York that Senator Chuck Schumer has lent his efforts to a petition calling for MLB to reverse its decision. (The online petition, for those who are interested, can be found at ipetitions.com.)
While I applaud the efforts of those who are supporting the petition, the realist in me dictates that it’s time to move forward. After this year, the Hall of Fame Game will have ended, nearly 70 years after its inception, and there’s likely nothing that can be done to change that. Very smartly, the Hall of Fame realizes that the game needs to be replaced with some other tangible event. The Hall has already begun exploring alternatives, including some kind of a "Futures Game," a game involving minor league teams, or perhaps even an "Old-Timers" or "Legends Game." And I’m all for that. While each of these concepts carries logistical problems, their potential benefits will bring some much-needed juice to the Hall of Fame calendar.
Last week on MLB Radio, afternoon host Seth Everett asked Hall vice president Jeff Idelson about the possibility of a Futures Game featuring prospects from two different organizations. Idelson seemed receptive to the idea. A mid-season Futures Game, coinciding with the All-Star break and featuring top prospects across the board, has already proved successful since its inception in 1999. By narrowing the concept, the Hall of Fame could take advantage of existing rivalries, such as the "future stars of the Red Sox against the future stars of the Yankees." Still, such a game would require some compromise. Since it’s highly unlikely that all of a parent team’s affiliates would have off on the same day, the parent team would have to be willing to give their top prospects a one-day leave of absence. For organizations that value winning at the minor league level, that stipulation could pose a problem.
As for the second possibility, a game featuring minor league teams will actually take place at Doubleday Field this May. It’s not affiliated with the Hall of Fame, but has been scheduled as part of the International League’s 100th anniversary celebration. This matchup, pitting the nearby Syracuse Sky Chiefs against the Rochester Red Wings, will count in the International League standings. Some Cooperstown observers believe that the Red Wings-Sky Chiefs game could become a precursor to an annual minor league game at Doubleday Field, one that the Hall of Fame might affiliate itself with. Hey, how about a game featuring the Yankees’ top affiliate at Scranton-Wilkes Barre against the Mets’ top minor league team, currently stationed in New Orleans? That would become even more feasible if the Mets relocate their Triple-A team to Syracuse, which has been hotly rumored.
An Old-Timers Game would be an even better idea than a minor league game or futures game, given the name value of retired stars. Such a game could be attached to Induction Weekend, when 50 or so Hall of Famers are already in town. Hall officials have resisted the idea in the past, in part because of worries that some Hall of Famers wouldn’t want to embarrass themselves in a game setting. Fine, that’s a legitimate concern. So let’s supplement the Old-Timers Game with a few non-Hall of Famers who are a little bit younger and in better physical condition. Twenty or 30 retired players, in addition to the Hall of Famers, usually attend Induction Weekend anyway. Another possibility would be to invite retired players who are scheduled to appear on the Hall of Fame ballot for the first time. The Hall could easily offer each player a reasonable honorarium to have their names introduced to the crowd, followed by two or three innings of participation in a game.
There is precedent for Old-Timers games at Doubleday Field. In 1989, the Hall of Fame celebrated its 50th anniversary by featuring a game of retired legends, including Hall of Famers and recently retired stars like George Foster and Manny Sanguillen. I’ve talked to a number of longtime Cooperstown residents about that game; every one of them has raved about the commercial and artistic success of that game. Not only did the game draw a strong crowd, but the participants also did well in playing to the fans, taking full advantage of the intimacy of Doubleday Field.
Perhaps the time is right to bring the old-timers back to Doubleday Field. That would be a great way for the Hall of Fame to counteract the unhappiness that came with last week’s demolition of a Cooperstown institution.
Bruce Markusen, the author of seven books on baseball, writes "Cooperstown Confidential" for MLB.com.
2 I missed the boat on that as well. Would have been cool. 90+K (and they're looking at adding more) at a baseball game seems hard to fathom. I have a feeling it will be filled with fans not rooting for LA, in which case I'm almost wishing for a meteor to strike there.
The above in no way excuses players who complain about missing a day off every dozen years. They even have to moan about it to local (central NY) media when they come up for the game.
As for the HoF game specifically, I think that is another tradition that just might no longer be practical. For starters, unless I am mistaken, "regular" players seldom do more than make cameo appearances anyway. So, there should be no problem with converting the game to minor leaguers. Quite frankly, I don't see what the real value of having a major league exhibition is anyway. It's not like the old days when "country folks" never had a chance to see the big leaguers play. As a fan, I'd rather watch a tightly contested "real" minor league game, or a star-studded exhibition (perhaps an Old Timers Game, gimmick game or even one of those old-time baseball recreations). What we have now is basically the worst of all options…minor league replacements playing an exhibition game.
Classic, old-style parade down Main Street, with the players riding in open-side trolleys. The pre-game homre-run derby, with plenty of shots being hit onto roofs of houses that abut the field. The local high school getting fund for their senior trip by doing all the concessions. The fans all decked out in their team gear. For a baseball fan, it really was a great day--particularly when the sun was shining.
But it was always clear that some players relished the experience--Johnny Damon was great a few years back--but that most barely tolerated it. And that's probably the knife in the heart of the game.
And just one thing to add to the main post--one of the articles I saw said that the HOF was also considering a game with foreign teams. I think the futures or old-timers games would probably draw more.
I'm not to big on a legends game, I just like the idea of prospects and the future (and hopefully a future hall of famer) playing.
Hope, its a good thing.
I hadn't heard about the Mets moving Triple-A to Syracuse. I'm up there several times a summer to see the inlaws, and we usually get to a Sky Chief's game or two. Are the Blue Jays pulling out of Syracuse? or would the Mets be joining them there?
Actually, didn't the Mets dump their AAA team for Johan? Heh.
well played.
http://tinyurl.com/35rayt
http://tinyurl.com/2vnd42
15 Yes it is. Those running the minor leagues want to be able to draw people too. I suspect that those in Syracuse are having the same problems those in Rochester, SWB, Ottawa, etc, etc, etc were having with attendance and drawing fans.
Having said that, since I missed out on MacArthur Stadium, I wouldn't mind taking in a game at P&C
http://tinyurl.com/2yuf3o
this whole thing keeps getting more and more bizarre... even before the clandestine canine revelation.
19 I wonder if RV's drive up and sniff the back door of that building? ;-)
"Radomski, who had no prior offenses, had faced no more than six months in prison. Assistant U.S. attorney Matt Parrella recommended that Radomski receive probation because of his extensive cooperation.
There's a culture of "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" when it comes to steroid abuse in sports and Radomski's naming of names "is at least a first step to turning that around," Parrella said."
So I'll hold my fire/comments on this now, too.
My problem is I wish that this crap had never happened, that Mitchell had not been hired by Bud to do his report but that ship has sailed. We can't hide from it so we might as well understand it and at least try to come to a consensus about what it all means. There's a lot of good faith here among the posters so we can handle a little good faith even if heated disagreement, we always have before. So I say let fly if you have the urge. But also lets talk some baseball when we can: I can't wait for our next sac bunt discussion and the inevitable Markov chain model link. You can only get that here on a game thread!
My feeling is I would like to see the "Is Roger guilty" aspect taken somewhat out of the discussion, as I just don't think, based on what is known, that we can make an informed judgement.
But irregardless of 'Roger', I think we can look at things like Mitchell's conflict of Interest, naming names vs. not, McNamee saving bio-waste for 7 years, and a number of other issues, and make better informed judgements.
I am also one who believes that a 'general' must take some responsibility for what the 'troops' do. I am very bothered by the fact that there is SO much discussion of Roger, Andy, Barry, et al, and so little of Bud, Fehr and the owners.
I personally think the way this entire Mitchell Investigation has been carried out has been one giant cover his ass, smokescreen for Selig. He should be the MOST accountable and yet his contract gets renewed. On top of that, he is responsible for 'punishing' players HE thinks deserve it. Doesn't anyone else think this is a horrible conflict?
Personally, I find it wearying to read daily reports on why McNamee is a liar. I'm sure others find it just as wearying to read my treatises on why that doesn't mean Clemens is telling the truth. The daily story might change, but the arguments are immobile.
There is a lot of speculation and BS being tossed about and a lot of 'Law and Order' fans are having fun playing lawyer out there. The stuff here has been a lot better than most of the crap I've seen. If we are finished with it you won't here me squawk about it one little bit. I fear though that we are only beginning with it.
Would we rather have Shelly in that spot?
Its hard to imagine both Bobby and JD not missing any games to injury, but it could happen.
Just throwing it out there.
Unless we need to talk Clemens some more.
Actually, our lineup seems pretty set. I guess who does what in ST will be what deterines our bench and maybe the BP.
Rotation. Rotation. Rotation.
Want one more. Kei Igawa is not him. Or it.
Clemens provides Congress proof that he was never at the Canseco party that McNamee says initiated him to start using steroids.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=4268178
Besides, I don't think I reopened the McNamee versus Clemens debate anyway. My question was specifically about why the feds would be cooperating with dealers to identify users. I find that practice to be very suspicious. Usually, a drug investigation is defined by the profile of the dealer, not the users. For that reason, I don't think you can dismiss the idea that the agents involved have been overly zealous is ensnaring bigger names.
All that aside, when I encounter a post in which I am not interested, I simply ignore it. If no one responds, the issue dies.
41 That's very compelling evidence. On this matter, it is clear that McNamee lied. Using that logic of "why would he tell the truth about Pettitte and lie about Clemens", I guess you also argue that why would he lie about the party and tell the truth about injecting Clemens? Of course, and not suprisingly, this issue hasn't made the same headlines. It seems as if the papers would rather splash headlines about dubious claims such as saved syringes and Clemens' wife using HGH, but have no use for those actually supported by hard evidence.
You've opened up the same debate again, even if it's from a slightly different angle than yesterday. You don't find anything about the case credible, and every event, every word that's uttered about it, can be made to bolster that argument. I get it. But it's long beyond shedding any light.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2ob42w
One of the congressmen, Edolphus Towns, a Democrat who represents Brooklyn, gave the most complete account yet of what Clemens has been saying in the closed-door meetings. Towns said he came away believing that it was Clemens's accuser, Brian McNamee, who might ultimately be charged with perjury.
As for my opening up the debate, an earlier post referenced the McNamee claim about Clemens wife. Secondly, the point I raised has nothing to do with Clemens. It was centered around Radomski and raised a more macro issue. You can certainly bring it around to Clemens, but that's up to you. I can appreciate you are tiring of this issue, but it is still alive and is only going to grow.
I've been one of the most engaged, but I'm tired of talking to a wall. Your mind's made up, every piece of information is interpreted in that light, and there's precious little room for discussion. Maybe you could wait until there's actually something new to say?
Yes.
My name is OldYanksFan.
And I am a Lohud Blogger
(God help me)
There haven't been many offseason aquisitions this year, but berween Torregate, ARod coming back, our resignings, and news on the kids (and not to mention ongoing M.R. news) there has been stuff to talk about.
Actually William and I, and a few others have kept this place on life support this winter. If you got something to discuss about the Yankees or Baseball please put it out there.
And lastly, while we try to avoid discussions on 'abortion and politics' here, the political ramifications of this whole M.R. mess are staggering. The process has become far dirtier then the crime. For instance, to respond to 42 , is it possible that Mitchell had a mandate from Selig to make sure the report had some major teeth? Without Clemens the report is colder then yesterday's coffee.
The nameing of names was in the very worst judgement and has only been deleterious. Did Selig arrive at the conclusions first (find some big scapegoats) and simply have Mitchell build a story around it? It would explain a lot of things.
Well I for one have pretty much stopped posting, and I at best only skim the entries and discussions, especially if they veer into Clemens/PED/etc land.
Yup. Exactly right. william, you see, there's some difference between a debate where one feels the other party is willing to reflect on what is said, and a pissing match. This feels, for me, certainly, too much like the latter.
While the Banter is a very civilized place, lines like he ones about the swimming pool incident (where I only pointed out there were no CHARGES, let alone a conviction, and had to field a suggestion I was trivializing date rape), or - more recently a complete failure to at least acknowledge you got the Radomski story WRONG (and you just broght it up again without conceding the errors ... to remind you ... this was NOT immunity, and 5 years probation for a first offense when the MAX is 6 months is not remotely out of line in the context of cooperation). You might have certainly engaged with the prosecutor's explanation, which I copied here. Instead, you ignore the points offered and charge ahead as if there had been nothing said in response! This, I believe, is what jl25 is notiing.
This is also, frankly, dispiriting.
TRhe issue is, of course, in-progress and SURELY you will admit can be seen and responded to in different ways. There's an AP report, today, for example, making the same point I did last week: how appallingly bad it looks that Clemens and lawyers (and a PR man!) are having private visits with the people who are about to be his judge and jury, in a POTENTIALLY criminal context. Notes how we would have reacted if McGwire or Sosa or Palmeiro had done that. (The report here from the Rogerites was 'what else can a man do if falsely accused?') AND you just cite one of these gladnanded guys as saying 'McNamee's more like to face perjury!' Wow, and wow, that's a pretty amazing case of prejudging, isn't it? But you cite it APPROVINGLY.
Same piece notes that if it was just mano a mano Roger might beat McNamee, but that Pettitte WILL deepen credibility, and Knoblauch is 'likely' to (a quote, guess he has same shiny nickel down that I do). The party? My DIME would be McNamee got that wrong. But read what he says happened there, how marginal it is, and consider how easy it is to get a setting wrong years after. I absolutely see that as going to his credibility, you betcha, and would weigh that against Pettitte and maybe Knoblauch, and a LOT else in this, some of which we haven't even heard.
You find the hgh story about Clemens' wife to be an obvious hilarious lie, others will find it so specific and unusual a story as to be far more likely true. Two journalists I've talked to have said exactly that. (It takes real imagination to make up something like that - and something else, under oath.)
My main point ... I do agree with you that this is a major issue in a winter season, I sometimes feel it is almost avoidance to NOT address it, that failing to look at the drug culture in baseball is what fans DID that was complicitous. But JL25 feels right to me AND I do note monkeypants' comment and feel badly that my own notes here on the topic might have pushed people away. (I do agree there's not much else to talk about right now!)
OYF: sure, those things are possible. But they were discussed at great length when the report was first released, so why rehash them now? Nothing's changed. Did Mitchell have a secret mandate from Selig? What is there to say about that that wasn't said in December?
"...the political ramifications of this whole M.R. mess are staggering. The process has become far dirtier then the crime...It would explain a lot of things." No, they're really not all that staggering, and this is starting to sound like old-fashioned conspiracy theories. The flaws in the process have little to no relevance to the allegations themselves. The report shouldn't have named names, but the names can still be accurate. The feds might have been gunning for stars, but they'd rather gun for stars who were actually guilty. Attacking the accusers does nothing at all to exculpate the accused.
"Actually William and I, and a few others have kept this place on life support this winter." Yes, and I'm one of the few others. But, as monkeypants suggests, maybe that's partly because others are feeling crowded out. There may not be a lot of Yankee news, but then this isn't Yankee news, either.
Bottom line: people will post what they want, and I shouldn't have tried to tell people what to do. For that, I apologize. But I also believe it's worth listening when other posters say it's been beaten into the ground, and other posters have been saying that for some time. I believe we should consider that before we rehash the same arguments over and over (and, william, yesterday's argument really was the same).
Pete Abe just posted some News:
The Bad News:
So what can we expect this spring? Lots and lots of steroids talk.
The Good News:
Here are the major topics for the Yankees:
1. Joe Girardi replacing Joe Torre.
2. The return of prodigal son Alex Rodriguez.
3. How best to use Joba Chamberlain.
4. Phil Hughes trying to validate the faith shown in him.
5. Ditto Melky Cabrera.
6. Is Mike Mussina finished as he enters the final year of his contract?
7. Ditto Jason Giambi.
8. Can Jorge Posada repeat his walk-year production?
9. Is Mariano still Mariano?
10. Who's at first base?
11. Who's pitching the eighth inning?
12. Who's pitching the seventh inning for that matter?
13. Can Brian Cashman live in harmony with the Steinbrenner Brothers?
14. Is Hideki Matsui healthy?
15. Can Bobby Abreu hit lefties?
16. Beyond the Big Three, who do the Yankees have coming up?
17. Will Robbie Cano let his new deal go to his head?
18. Can Chien-Ming Wang recover from the ALDS disaster?
19. Can Kei Igawa pitch?
20. Is Derek Jeter still Derek Jeter?
anything here worthy of discussion?
http://www.nytimes.com/pages/sports/baseball/index.html
Warning: Some nice things said about Joe Torre.
1. Joe Girardi replacing Joe Torre.
I think he'll be cut a bit of slack. I think Mattingly's very sad domestic woes will ease pressure on Girardi.
2. The return of prodigal son Alex Rodriguez.
I hope he'll be cut some slack if he doesn't have a 2nd season for the ages in a row. I have a vague sense that Melky +Cano to sandwich him (literally) has helped Rodriguez feel he's in a clubhouse where he's a leader.
3. How best to use Joba Chamberlain.
Starter, for sure. Eventually. No problem here with 60-80 games in relief and a gradual shift around the Break ... but turns, obviously on health of others and performance.
4. Phil Hughes trying to validate the faith shown in him.
He'll get a LOT of slack.
5. Ditto Melky Cabrera.
Melky is likely, to my mind, to settle is as solid top 10 CF, neither brilliant nor worrisome.
6. Is Mike Mussina finished as he enters the final year of his contract?
Yes.
7. Ditto Jason Giambi.
Probably.
8. Can Jorge Posada repeat his walk-year production?
Not a hope. The hope is split-the-diff.
9. Is Mariano still Mariano?
Probably.
10. Who's at first base?
Lou Costello.
11. Who's pitching the eighth inning?
Joba to June then Bud Abbott.
12. Who's pitching the seventh inning for that matter?
Flip a coin, pick a card.
13. Can Brian Cashman live in harmony with the Steinbrenner Brothers?
Yeah, sure.
14. Is Hideki Matsui healthy?
The All-Knowing I Ching says, 'The future is cloudy.'
15. Can Bobby Abreu hit lefties?
I say yes.
17. Will Robbie Cano let his new deal go to his head?
Doubt it, big time. Wrong team to try for complacency.
18. Can Chien-Ming Wang recover from the ALDS disaster?
Oh, for sure. Silly question.
19. Can Kei Igawa pitch?
Pass.
20. Is Derek Jeter still Derek Jeter?
Bad phrasing ... DJ is an evolving entity, and may be evolving towards a slughtly-better-than-average 1stbaseman, but my guess is he's okay where he is for 2-3 more years.
49 I didn't realize you were seeking an admission that I mis"spoke" when I mentioned immunity. My main point was that it was odd that prosecutors were working with drug dealers against users. Whether that involves immunity, a favorable sentencing recommendation or whatever, that doesn't change the point.
50 Again, I don't think my original point was raising the same argument. The implications of it go far beyond Clemens and McNamee. The method of drug enforcement has always been to get users to rat out dealers, not the other way around. If you think raising that issue is the same as debating whether McNamee is a credible witness, well, I sincerely disagree.
— Yes, he will
2. The return of prodigal son Alex Rodriguez.
— History in the making. It will be a good year for ARod
3. How best to use Joba Chamberlain.
— BP in the first half ONLY because of his immings limit and the BP will be worse in the first half then second. STOP WHINING! He will be a starter forever after.
4. Phil Hughes trying to validate the faith shown in him.
— Phil's cool. He will just do his thing. 4.0+/- ERA this year
5. Ditto Melky Cabrera.
— It's his last year in Pinstripes if he doesn't put up a .780 OPs or better
6. Is Mike Mussina finished as he enters the final year of his contract?
— He will be about league average and eat innings
7. Ditto Jason Giambi.
— An .880 OPS in a relatively healthy year
8. Can Jorge Posada repeat his walk-year production?
— of course NOT. Are you nuts? I'll settle for average Jorge
9. Is Mariano still Mariano?
— Not as many 2 inning stinks, but still an excellent closer
10. Who's at first base?
— Round robin most of the year. Giambi against righties.
11. Who's pitching the eighth inning?
— Joba to the ASB, Farns and kids later
12. Who's pitching the seventh inning for that matter?
— Whoever doesn't walk their first batter
13. Can Brian Cashman live in harmony with the Steinbrenner Brothers?
— Yeah, it's better then pre-2005 George
14. Is Hideki Matsui healthy?
— He will mostly DH, maybe start 25-30% of games in the OF, so he should be OK
15. Can Bobby Abreu hit lefties?
— In line with his career numbers, so a relative yes
16. Beyond the Big Three, who do the Yankees have coming up?
— If they are in first, nobody, except for a cup of coffee. If behind the Sox, everyone past puberty.
17. Will Robbie Cano let his new deal go to his head?
— If he does, Girardi will knock it off. So, no.
18. Can Chien-Ming Wang recover from the ALDS disaster?
— Sure. The guy is cool. What disaster?
19. Can Kei Igawa pitch?
— We will see him in the BP, and at times he will be effective.
20. Is Derek Jeter still Derek Jeter?
— No worse then last year. He is motivated.
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