Rice will likely get in next year, which is a shame. Hopefully, those voting no on Rice can do a better job hammering their case home because you know the likes of Gammons are arm twisting for him.
The fact that only 25% voted for Raines is scary. I think the HoF seriously needs to consider revamping its selection process.
"WCherniak (Woodbine, Md.): Has anyone ever come as close as Rice without eventually getting in?
Jay Jaffe: Yes, if you mean getting in on the BBWAA ballot as opposed to the VC one. Nellie Fox got 74.7 percent in his final year, Jim Bunning 74.2, Orlando Cepeda 73.5 and Red Ruffing 72.6. All were eventually selected, Ruffing via a runoff (which happened when the writers came up empty the first time around) and the rest via the VC."
I can remember being a kid and pretending to be Gossage, putting every once of effort into throwing a rock, an acorn, a tennis ball -- and then following through with the leg out sideways. When I practiced with my brother he made me pitch like Guidry, popping off and landing in a ready position to field. When I played for fun I threw like a crazy person and pretended I was Goose.
I think the Boggs/Raines comparison that swayed Gammons needs to get a hard push next year. Raines had more runs + RBI in fewer career PAs than Boggs. What is offensive baseball about besides generating runs? By that measure, Raines had more offensive success than first ballot Boggs.
Hats off to Goose. I could pretend to be Tommy John in the backyard all day, but I never could master Goose's flailing delivery. How in the world he got all those moving parts in synch, I'll never know. How a batter could pick up the ball off his hand - crazy. He was one intimidating mo-fo on the mound. When he was pitching, it was "drop whatever you are doing and watch" times.
I was watching the debate about the Hall with Joe Sheehan, Keith Law, Tim K. and Steve Phillips on ESPNews. I just want to smack Phillips. What a dodo. Those writers who didn't vote for McGwire are fake fools.
9 You mean you watched Joe Sheehan, Keith Law, Tim K. and Steve Phillips on ESPNews all at one time? Do you feel ok now? Simone you need to take better care of yourself than that; it may be intervention time.
8 Good description. It always looked to me like his arms and legs would be flying in different directions - looked like a windmill for a sec - and suddenly a baseball would come shooting out of the middle of it. He was a hell of a lot of fun to watch.
11 I'm still watching them. I'm sending Phillips a bill for my therapy. Gawd, what a buffoon. I was screaming at Phillips when the air conditioning guy came in and agreed with me, insisting that he ruined the Mets. See, everyone, but the Wilpons know that Phillips is a dope.
I'll watch Steve Philips only as a way to reassure myself that there are some really stupid people out there. The side effect, though, is that there are some really stupid people out there who make obscene amounts more money than I ever will.
Finally, some good news for Yankee fans. I loved watching Goose pitch. Nice article too Alex for SI ... best line:
"The night before the playoff game, Gossage was convinced that it would come down to a confrontation with Yastrzemski, Boston's veteran star. It did. Gossage had entered in the seventh inning with a 5-2 lead, but in the bottom of the ninth it ws 5-4 with two on and two out when Yastrzemski came to bat"
He came into the game in the 7th inning ! Unheard of nowadays !
"While trying to expand beyond his Yankees training duties, McNamee began referring to himself as Dr. McNamee in his side gigs. He was featured in InVite's promotional magazine as "Dr. Brian McNamee, Ph.D," used the e-mail address "McNameePHD," and told people he had earned his doctorate at Columbus University in Louisiana. Columbus now operates out of Mississippi, after the state of Louisiana shut it down in 2001 for being a "diploma mill," churning out degrees to people who did little or no academic work."
27 Pre-banter, I probably been in that bookstore more times than I care to admit. If I make it up there this year for the ceremonies, I will make sure to stop by.
Yayy for the Goose!
BTW, way late as usual but what were the references to 134 in the previous post on Clemens? Tried to link to it but it said "error".....
Hat Tip again to my bud Steve at WW:
"It was an interview with Dave Eiland, talking about Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy. On Hughes, Eiland said that there's no level of success that Phil could have on a baseball field that would surprise him. That's pretty much as good as a compliment can get. However, it terms of assessing the three pitchers now, Eiland put Kennedy ahead of Chamberlain and Hughes. Further, he stated that Ian Kennedy had command of four pitches now – whereas Chamberlain has command of three and Hughes (according to Eiland) only has command of 'two to two and a half' (which he then qualified by saving Phil's change-up is coming along…hence the 'half')."
Honestly... he's great, but I have ZERO interest in Santana anymore. Watching and hoping for Phil, Joba and IPK is the most exciting thing about being a Yankee fan I can remember in a long time.
28 The best thing about this era is there are at least a couple of guys whom we can all look forward to seeing in Cooperstown. Unlike the Yankees of the 1970s and 1980s, who only produced "part-time" Yankees like Reggie, Catfish and the Goose (while the more entrenched Yankees like Guidry and Mattingly fell short), the current dynasty will offer several candidates with 10+ year tenures, including Rivera, Jeter, Torre and Arod, to go along with possible inductees like Posada and Bernie (who could get in if the voters give him non-PED credit and are smart enough to see that he compares favorably to Jim Rice).
38 Judging my his "normal" career path and health progression as well as his failure to be implicated (which, as a Yankee during the McNamee tenure, is significant), I think most people would reach the conclusion that Bernie was not a PED user.
Even the super news about Goose gets tarnished with th continuing saga about steroids. Peter nows has the story of McNamee allegedly lying to the police about raping a woman in a pool, where there were witnesses. Ugh. Apparently the Yankees fired him right afterwards, but then Roger hired him. That does taint Roger to me -- hiring someone your employer just fired over a rape allegation (with the use of GHB)?
On the positive note, I like Goose's reasoning for growing his moustache:
"I did it to tick off Steinbrenner."
Nice.
27 Cool.
Maybe you and/or Bruce Markusen coulod do a special "Inside Cooperstown" posting some time on what it's like to attend an induction, how to do it right, etc. It's a little further for us New Englanders, but not a bad drive for a weekend. (I took my sons this past summer and we stopped off at the Basketball HoF too, a fun weekend. But I had no idea that there was an unmoderated book store!)
35 No problem, I'll make that an Open Source joke. Just make sure you don't use it commercially. (I just got Open Office, for free, and now I don't understand why anyone would buy the Microsoft product.)
First, I think it's presumptuous to think that we can accurately judge a player's career path, body type or any other factor. I don't pretend to be an expert on PEDs, what effects they might have, how different varieties work, what moderate or occasional use (as opposed to Canseco use) might do, and so on. I don't know if a player used once, or twice, or for one season, or during the offseason - or what difference that might make. Do you really have enough knowledge of the subject to judge all that with such assurance? (And how many times did we hear Michael Kay wax rhapsodic about Bernie's physique?)
The failure to mention anyone in the report says absolutely nothing. That's one of my major objections to naming names: the implicit exoneration of everyone else. I don't see any reason to believe that Radomski and McNamee were the only sources available to Yankee players.
If you want to give Bernie every benefit of the doubt, fine. But that's a long, long way from exonerating him entirely, and giving him extra credit for it.
43 I am not advocating that voters judge body size and statistical path...I am simply point out that is what is being done and offered as viable evidence. If that flawed reasoning is what the voters intend to apply, then Bernie should be tagged as a non-user.
Futhermore, if you are going to believe Bernie is a non-user based on body size, then his not being included in the Mitchell report is further support. Because of McNamee's role as a Yankee trainer, any Yankee during his tenure not mentioned in the report likely gets a "cleaner bill of health" than a non-Yankee who escaped mention. The logic behind that presumption is the other team's McNamee hasn't been found yet.
indeed, there is a fine bookstore, if i do say so myself. while it's not technically in cooperstown, it is in oneonta, which is off the interstate most people take to get to cooperstown.
The accusations in the Mitchell report are flawed at best, but we should then turn around and apply those standards to exonerating others. We particularly shouldn't believe information provided by McNamee, but the fact that he didn't give discredited information on Bernie should count in his favor.
On the one hand, I don't consider anyone exonerated simply because they weren't named. I think everyone from that era should be suspect, which is why no one should have been named.
On the other hand, I don't use that in my own personal HOF considerations. At that time, MLB considered steroids simply as illegal drugs, and there shouldn't be disproportionate retroactive penalties. If I had a vote, I'd vote for McGwire for the HOF.
47 You are arguing the point as if I am advancing it. I am simply laying out the logic that has presented in the bastion of journalism that is America's sports pages. Considering that many of these noble scribes also have a Hall of Fame vote, I wouldn't be surprised to see arguments like the one in 44 used to justify some otherwise borderline candidates.
49 Fair enough, and sorry for the misundertstanding. Rice's candidacy has already gotten a big boost from that, which makes no sense to me at all. His numbers weren't good enough then, I don't know why they should be now.
50 For a laugh, check out Dan Shaughnessy's article in the Globe. Here are my favorites:
Shaughnessy: "Rice hit for power in a day when power numbers were legit. He was the dominant slugger of his time, a man capable of inducing an intentional walk when the bases were loaded."
Fact:Jim Rice ranks 49th in Intentional Walks from 1974 to 1989. Among the names who received more IBB than Rice over that span include Chili Davis, Ben Oglivie, George Foster, Ron Cey and Leon Durham. Mike Schmidt, the man who was really the most feared slugger of Rice's era, drew over 100 more IBB than Rice.
Shaughnessy: "He amassed more than 400 total bases when he was MVP in 1978. He hit 35 homers with 200 hits in three straight seasons. He was more feared that Tony Perez, who is in the Hall of Fame."
Fact: No one can deny that Jim Rice had a monster stretch from 1977-1979, but he really only had three other season that can be classified as very good. As for the reference to Tony Perez, well, a whole list of hitters were more feared than he was, and many are not in the Hall of Fame.
Based on Shaughnessy's logic, every mass murder and villain throughout history should be in the Hall of Fame due to the "fear factor". Heck...Kyle Fransworth should be elected too. I know it scares the hell out of me everytime he enters a game.
Rice will likely get in next year, which is a shame. Hopefully, those voting no on Rice can do a better job hammering their case home because you know the likes of Gammons are arm twisting for him.
The fact that only 25% voted for Raines is scary. I think the HoF seriously needs to consider revamping its selection process.
I'll never forget watching him in the bullpen as a kid, being thunderstruck by the booming echo of his warmup fastball. Gave me chills.
Congrats, Goose!
Always feared, finally honored.
It's too bad the Raines isn't getting nearly enough love.
That makes 2 that I actually gave a crap about: Goose and Scooter!
The Hall voters must be on an Atkins diet.
This encourages me:
"WCherniak (Woodbine, Md.): Has anyone ever come as close as Rice without eventually getting in?
Jay Jaffe: Yes, if you mean getting in on the BBWAA ballot as opposed to the VC one. Nellie Fox got 74.7 percent in his final year, Jim Bunning 74.2, Orlando Cepeda 73.5 and Red Ruffing 72.6. All were eventually selected, Ruffing via a runoff (which happened when the writers came up empty the first time around) and the rest via the VC."
I think the Boggs/Raines comparison that swayed Gammons needs to get a hard push next year. Raines had more runs + RBI in fewer career PAs than Boggs. What is offensive baseball about besides generating runs? By that measure, Raines had more offensive success than first ballot Boggs.
Very happy for him today.
Hey .... it beats watching the Repub and Dem candidates debates ... easily
The one cringe-worthy memory I have of Goose was when he beaned Ron Cey .... the "thud" off the helmet was scary ...
Other than that he was a joy to watch ...
If only Cliff Johnson didn't get into a locker room brawl with him in '79 ...
"The night before the playoff game, Gossage was convinced that it would come down to a confrontation with Yastrzemski, Boston's veteran star. It did. Gossage had entered in the seventh inning with a 5-2 lead, but in the bottom of the ninth it ws 5-4 with two on and two out when Yastrzemski came to bat"
He came into the game in the 7th inning ! Unheard of nowadays !
Yes, those long saves are rare. Even a six-out save is asking a lot these days.
i cant do the inductions anymore, the crowds are too crazy.
Man, this guy is dirty top to bottom.
BTW, way late as usual but what were the references to 134 in the previous post on Clemens? Tried to link to it but it said "error".....
"It was an interview with Dave Eiland, talking about Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy. On Hughes, Eiland said that there's no level of success that Phil could have on a baseball field that would surprise him. That's pretty much as good as a compliment can get. However, it terms of assessing the three pitchers now, Eiland put Kennedy ahead of Chamberlain and Hughes. Further, he stated that Ian Kennedy had command of four pitches now – whereas Chamberlain has command of three and Hughes (according to Eiland) only has command of 'two to two and a half' (which he then qualified by saving Phil's change-up is coming along…hence the 'half')."
Honestly... he's great, but I have ZERO interest in Santana anymore. Watching and hoping for Phil, Joba and IPK is the most exciting thing about being a Yankee fan I can remember in a long time.
What's the story of 134????
On the positive note, I like Goose's reasoning for growing his moustache:
"I did it to tick off Steinbrenner."
Nice.
Maybe you and/or Bruce Markusen coulod do a special "Inside Cooperstown" posting some time on what it's like to attend an induction, how to do it right, etc. It's a little further for us New Englanders, but not a bad drive for a weekend. (I took my sons this past summer and we stopped off at the Basketball HoF too, a fun weekend. But I had no idea that there was an unmoderated book store!)
First, I think it's presumptuous to think that we can accurately judge a player's career path, body type or any other factor. I don't pretend to be an expert on PEDs, what effects they might have, how different varieties work, what moderate or occasional use (as opposed to Canseco use) might do, and so on. I don't know if a player used once, or twice, or for one season, or during the offseason - or what difference that might make. Do you really have enough knowledge of the subject to judge all that with such assurance? (And how many times did we hear Michael Kay wax rhapsodic about Bernie's physique?)
The failure to mention anyone in the report says absolutely nothing. That's one of my major objections to naming names: the implicit exoneration of everyone else. I don't see any reason to believe that Radomski and McNamee were the only sources available to Yankee players.
If you want to give Bernie every benefit of the doubt, fine. But that's a long, long way from exonerating him entirely, and giving him extra credit for it.
Futhermore, if you are going to believe Bernie is a non-user based on body size, then his not being included in the Mitchell report is further support. Because of McNamee's role as a Yankee trainer, any Yankee during his tenure not mentioned in the report likely gets a "cleaner bill of health" than a non-Yankee who escaped mention. The logic behind that presumption is the other team's McNamee hasn't been found yet.
The accusations in the Mitchell report are flawed at best, but we should then turn around and apply those standards to exonerating others. We particularly shouldn't believe information provided by McNamee, but the fact that he didn't give discredited information on Bernie should count in his favor.
On the one hand, I don't consider anyone exonerated simply because they weren't named. I think everyone from that era should be suspect, which is why no one should have been named.
On the other hand, I don't use that in my own personal HOF considerations. At that time, MLB considered steroids simply as illegal drugs, and there shouldn't be disproportionate retroactive penalties. If I had a vote, I'd vote for McGwire for the HOF.
Shaughnessy: "Rice hit for power in a day when power numbers were legit. He was the dominant slugger of his time, a man capable of inducing an intentional walk when the bases were loaded."
Fact:Jim Rice ranks 49th in Intentional Walks from 1974 to 1989. Among the names who received more IBB than Rice over that span include Chili Davis, Ben Oglivie, George Foster, Ron Cey and Leon Durham. Mike Schmidt, the man who was really the most feared slugger of Rice's era, drew over 100 more IBB than Rice.
Shaughnessy: "He amassed more than 400 total bases when he was MVP in 1978. He hit 35 homers with 200 hits in three straight seasons. He was more feared that Tony Perez, who is in the Hall of Fame."
Fact: No one can deny that Jim Rice had a monster stretch from 1977-1979, but he really only had three other season that can be classified as very good. As for the reference to Tony Perez, well, a whole list of hitters were more feared than he was, and many are not in the Hall of Fame.
Based on Shaughnessy's logic, every mass murder and villain throughout history should be in the Hall of Fame due to the "fear factor". Heck...Kyle Fransworth should be elected too. I know it scares the hell out of me everytime he enters a game.
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