Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Mr. Magic
2007-12-20 05:34
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Knick fans have been called the most loyal of all New York sporting fans. The fact that the Garden still draws crowds with the organization in its current state (i.e. shambles) says something about the Knick faithful. Maybe the rattle-your-jewelry crowd just needs a place to keep warm. I don't know how anyone but a complete boob or a die-hard fan could go to the Garden to watch this horrid excuse for a team. The call for Isiah Thomas' job has reached new heights in recent days (despite the fact the Knicks actually won a game last night). But I'm afraid that with Jim Dolan running the team, Thomas is only part of the problem. Still, he can't split soon enough for most of us who care even a little. The sooner we're rid of this snake-oil salesman the better.

Which brings me to another bit from an old Sport magazine that I ran across recently, circa 1976. From a cover story on Earl Monroe (the original "Magic" though he's of course better known as "Pearl") by Woody Allen:

My impressions of Monroe [when he played for Balitmore]? I immediately ranked him with Willie Mays and Sugar Ray Robinson as athletes who went beyond the level of sports as sport into the realm of sports as art. Seemingly awkward and yet breathtakingly graceful...

Then in 1971 he got traded to the Knicks...Could he play alongside Walt Frazier? Frazier was then the premier all-around guard in basketball and had set standards so high that years later when he might be off his game a fraction and could no longer single-handedly win games, the fans could not deal with it and turned on him. I found this unforgivable and it certainly says something about the myth of the New York sports fan.

Woody reluctantly went to talk to Monroe at the players' upper west side apartment. When he arrived, Woody was greeted by Pearl's girlfriend ("My God, she's packed into those jeans with an ice cream scoop.") Monroe was out running errands, so Woody and the girlfriend chatted...for a few hours. Monroe never showed up, and finally Woody excused himself.

I back out the door, dumbling and apologizing, for what, I don't know. Then, walking home this sunny, Saturday afternoon, I think to myself, how wonderful. This great athlete is so unconcerned about the usual nonsense of social protocol. Unimpressed by me, a cover interview, and all the attendant fuss and adulation that so many people strive for, he simply fails to show up. Probably off playing tennis or fooling with his new Mercedes.

Whatever he was doing, I admired him for his total unconcern...That night, Earl scored 28 points and had eight misses against Washington; the next day he tossed in 31 points against the same team.

I thought about how Sport's editors had relayed Monroe's enthusiasm about the prospect of our interview. I thought, too, that if I had missed an interview I'd be consumed with guilt. But that's me and I'm not a guy who can ask for a ball with the team down by a point, two seconds left on the clock, and, with two players hacking at my body and shiedling my vision, score from the corner. If I misse the basket and lose the game for my team, I commit suicide. For Monroe, well, he's as nonchalant about that tension-strung situation as he is about keeping appointments. That's why I'd tense up and blow clutch shots, while Monroe's seem to drop through the hoop like magic.

Boy, the Knicks sure could use some magic these days. But even Houdini would have his hands full making this bunch disappear.

Comments (64)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-12-20 06:26:10
1.   nemecizer
What is this "basketball" of which you speak? And does it have something to do with Karim Garcia?
2007-12-20 06:37:03
2.   liam
i was real excited to see some kind of response to this (38pitches):

all i can say is wow.

2007-12-20 06:48:03
3.   Alex Belth
One of the personal thrills of my life was working for Woody Allen. I was the apprentice editor on his musical "Everyone Says I Love You." Worked on it four about six months. At the time, I wasn't a Woody fan, but I had been an enormous fan when I was in high school, so it was a kick. For the first three weeks or so, nobody bothered to introduce me to the guy, even though it was a relatively small cutting room and he was there every day. Finally, I just started chatting with him. Asked him about Peter Sellers, I think. (He said Sellers was a very unhappy man.) Then about Lenny Bruce (he thought Lenny was pretentious). Mostly, we talked about the Knicks, who I knew he was going to see every night. I asked him about the Riley Knicks compared with the old days. "Y'know FrAAAziah and MonROW..." Don't remember what he said so much as how he pronounced their names, in classic Woody fashion. He even gave up his cherce tickets to me on a few occasions.
2007-12-20 06:54:06
4.   Sliced Bread
The other night, at a screening of Woody's new joint, a colleague shot him a question about the Knicks. Woody said he'll keep going to the games, and was planning to be courtside last night.

My friend/colleague asked what should be done about the Knicks, and Woody said this: "I think they're a great, great supporting cast in need of a leading man. That's how I would look at it as a filmmaker. They're very, very talented. They just need one more thing, and I think it would all suddenly come together, and people would be very pleasantly surprised."

Unfortunately, my guy didn't get to follow up for the rebound, and ask who, or what that one "thing" (Pearl!) might be -- or suggest that the best addition might be the subtraction of Isiah -- but clearly, the Woodman is still a diehard.

I guess Woody was just being polite not mentioning Isiah, but it's also possible that "the neurotic artist" is still so in awe of "the unencumbered player" that he fails to see what a walking disaster player is as a basketball executive.

Last time I was at the Garden was about a year and a half ago, a Springsteen hootenanny. Sat directly beneath one of the old Knick banners thinking what a foolish disgrace this team has become. And think how worse it's gotten since.

2007-12-20 06:57:30
5.   Raf
0 No "Rap Attack?"

I still bump "Delancey St" & "Girls Ain't Nothing But Trouble" from time to time. The latter has darker lyrics than what was released on the Fresh Prince's album.

2007-12-20 06:57:51
6.   jkay
Dolan almost bought the Yankees. Keep that in mind the next time there is an urge to complain about Hankenstein.
2007-12-20 06:59:37
7.   Raf
4 "I think they're a great, great supporting cast in need of a leading man."

Sounds like he's calling for a point guard...

2007-12-20 07:08:07
8.   Cru Jones
2 I'd have to say one of the most suspect performances during this steroid era was Schilling's performance in the 2004 playoffs. His ability to pitch on one and a half legs smacks of HGH, if not steroids use. So, for me, his ridiculous rant seems like someone trying to distract people from looking at him.

And, what, since Ortiz doesn't get mentioned (thank you, Mitchell), he gets a free pass? But Roger has to return his Cys?

Gimme a break. I hate Schilling. Cheater. Blowhard.

2007-12-20 07:09:39
9.   Josh Wilker
0 "the original 'Magic' though he's of course better known as 'Pearl')"

Wasn't he also known (in the Rucker League and in other places where his unorthodox genius could most fully flourish) as Black Jesus? That's my understanding, and it was also my inspiration for my self-given nickname while studying and flourishing as never before in pickup hoops games during a semester abroad in Shanghai: White Confucius.

2007-12-20 07:11:44
10.   Dimelo
0 Man, for the 3rd year in a row I believed the hype and thought the Knicks would be competitive, I went and downloaded their schedule into my PDA from their website. I started to believe when they were 2 - 1, then....well....then they became what we've seen since Zeke started running the club.

I've always hated the C's, I learned to hate the Celtics before I learned to hate the Red Sox. Growing up in the 80's, it was only after Rags' no-hitter and him K'ing Boggs in '84 did I start to hear and learn more about the history between the Sawx and Yanks, but I never fully understood it till I got much older - my teenage years.

The Celtics with Bird, McHale, Parrish and DJ, were the team I first learned to hate with a passion. I hated how the Bulls constantly broke my heart, but I did admire their intensity and I loved watching Jordan play - he was Pedro, before there was a Pedro. The difference with the Jordan Pedro was that he actually was a NY killer. The Celtics, however, represented something worse in my eyes...was it their uniform, the Garden, Johnny Most, fan base, etc? I just despised everything about them. But my Knicks never stopped playing hard in those days, the Knicks had a lot of lovable players then:
Gerald Wilkins
Trent Tucker
Mark Jackson
Greg Anthony
Doc Rivers

I miss my Knicks, I don't even recognize the franchise any longer. It's not even the team, it's the entire organization - just like you said, Alex. Zeke is only part of the problem. I'm afraid the Knicks will be awful till at least 2015. The team and franchise have no heart

Between St. John's and the Knicks, the NY basketball you can see is probably at Rucker Park.

2007-12-20 07:21:46
11.   Josh Wilker
10 : Most of the Knicks that you mention actually were the ones who pulled the Knicks far past the crumbling Celtics in the standings. As a Celtics fan living in NYC throughout the Starks-Oakley era, I came to really admire their effort and even root for them. Going back a little farther, I loved Bernard King. How could you not?
2007-12-20 07:23:07
12.   Alex Belth
Grover Washington! Mr. Magic. Lol. I was just listening to "Cinderfella" last night, speaking of old records. "Brand New Funk" is one of my favorite cuts from that Fresh Prince, Jazzy Jeff album.
2007-12-20 07:24:15
13.   Alex Belth
Bernard King. The Best. Big Ass, high ass. Virtually unstoppable offensively. What a load he was. Josh you should do a post on the Ernie and Bernie show, even though they didn't have cards in college.
2007-12-20 07:26:04
14.   Josh Wilker
13 : I vividly, vividly remember the Bernie and Ernie Show Sports Illustrated cover from the late 1970s.
2007-12-20 07:26:15
15.   weeping for brunnhilde
3 That's way cool, Alex.

What a great gig, what a great experience.

And speaking of that film, I've noticed Woody has a thing for Mahler.

Everyone Says I Love You features Mahler 4 as Julia Roberts' aphrodisiac.

Husbands and Wives features Mahler 9 as the symphony Judy Davis and Liam Nison go to see on their first date. Judy Davis says, "It began well...he should have cut it was a bit long."

And in Manhattan, Mahler has a place in the old Academy of the Overrated. He's the first mentioned, iirc.

If only you could have asked him what his deal is with Mahler, I'd love to know!

Oh well, next time.


2007-12-20 07:30:32
16.   Raf
10 That may have been the first time I saw Mase referred to as "lovable."

Didn't like the Celtics either. Few people were happier than me when the Knicks came back from being down 0-2, winning gm 5 @ the Gah-den.

Was too in awe of the Bulls (er, Jordan) to really hate them.

2007-12-20 07:36:23
17.   Raf
12 I listen to "Cinderfella" every so often; I love the way Dana Dane tells a story...
2007-12-20 07:36:45
18.   Josh Wilker
No bad feelings at all for the Bulls, Knicks fans? They stole your lunch money way more than the Celtics ever did (in fact the one time when both the Celts and Knicks were peaking--1973--the Knicks prevailed, albeit in part because Havlicek was playing with a broken arm). Doesn't anyone remember Pippen stomping arrogantly post-dunk on Ewing? Phil Jackson sanctimoniously whining that the Knicks were dragging the sacred and beautiful game of basketball down into the gutter? There had to have been a little Bulls-hate there somewhere.
2007-12-20 07:37:44
19.   Knuckles
10 Those were my Knicks as well! I think my Walkman got the least amount of tape-playing use ever growing up, cuz all I did was listen to the Yanks and Knicks on the AM radio.

Pat's missed finger roll against the hated Pacers in '95 still kills me. A bunch of us were caravan'ing back from the Shore after my senior prom, listening to the game on the radio. I remember hearing the missed shot, and seeing my friend punch the roof of his car, a few lengths ahead. These being the days before cell phones, we all coordinated to pull off at the next rest stop and commiserate. My girlfriend at the time was about as fired up as I was, God bless her. I imagine if we'd stayed together, we'd be going all Bonnie and Clyde (Barrow, not Frazier) on Isaiah and Dolan right about now.

2007-12-20 07:49:22
20.   JL25and3
8 I agree. Schilling is a sanctimonious SOB - and he sure does go on and on and on and on and on and on about it. But I don't see any reason to assume that he never used PEDs just because he's said so.

The schadenfreude of Red Sox fans shows how much people are missing the point. Sure, Yankees were using PEDs, but so were players on every other team, including Red Sox. And not just Gabe Kapler, but stars. Schilling and Ortiz? Why not? For that matter, Yankee fans shouldn't assume that the list is complete. Tino Martinez, even Derek Jeter? Again, why not?

Some people are suggesting that the Yankees' championships should be re-evaluated. That's just all wrong. I assume that every team had its users, and hence that the teams as a whole were competing on an even playing field.

2007-12-20 07:51:48
21.   Raf
18 I was too in awe of the Bulls to hate them. Pacers & Heat, OTOH...

And I may not be the most religious person, but I prayed for a Knicks-Suns final in '93.

2007-12-20 07:56:47
22.   Alex Belth
I never hated the Celtics like I disliked the Bulls later on. Hey, who can forget Ewing's three from the corner against Boston?

Nah, I wasn't in awe of the Bulls, just flat-out loathed them. I was a Jordan fan when he was at UNC and then during his early years, but when they got so good and spanked the Knicks repeatedly, I just hated the guy. For what it's worth, however, I think you can argue that, out-manned as they were, those Knick teams gave the Bulls a tougher time than virtually any other team. I'll never forget watching the Finals in horror when His Airness had 103 temperature or whatever it was, and the Jazz just let him take open shots. Man, if Jordan came out sick against the Knicks, you could bank that he would have been taken out on a stretcher by halftime. The Knicks were boneheads and bruisers. They weren't a great team, but they were tough.

2007-12-20 08:01:46
23.   Oscar Azocar
0 Agreed, Alex. Isaiah needs to go, but the problems will not stop with Dolan at the top. With the Rangers doing well, unfortunately that will stroke his ego and make him think that he's a capable professional sports team owner.

I was looking at job opportunities at Cablevision a few years ago and spoke with a contact there. She mentioned that Jim Dolan is a total a-hole who loved to manage by screaming and was more concerned about the Knicks than Cablevision. The best thing he did, actually, was that he hired people that were capable of running the company, because he certainly wasn't capable.

18 For me, there were bad feelings at the time that have slowly gone away as time has passed. I remember feeling both anger and wonder at how Jordan could single-handedly torch the Knicks. Pippen was a guy that I hated, all his whining, sitting in '94 when Phil called the last shot for Kukoc.

10 Trent Tucker, wow. I remember when he hit that 4 point play against the Bulls in the '89 playoffs (too bad they lost). He also did the impossible and hit a game winning shot with 0.1 seconds left. I forgot when that happened. They implemented the rule that it can only be a tip in with less than .3 seconds left after that.

2007-12-20 08:08:36
24.   Dimelo
23 I remember that 4 point play. I loved that.

16 I remember when the Knicks came back against the C's that year, I was so happy. I still remember during the 80's I was convinced that Bird could never dunk because I never saw it, then one game when the C's were playing the Knicks he intercepts a pass and goes down the court and he f'ing dunked.

I was heartbroken, I could have gone my whole life not seeing Bird dunk. I don't remember seeing Bird dunk again, thankfully.

2007-12-20 08:09:46
25.   Raf
22 The Jazz let him take open shots because if they so much as breathed on him, they'd get called for a foul :)

You're right; the Knicks may have been outmanned, but they made up for it by playing tight D. And that is correct, they were a bunch of bruisers back then. Don't remember many bonehead/thuggush moves; at least nothing other than Charlie Ward in the '97 playoffs.

They played the game so tough that the NBA instituted rule changes after the '94 Finals. "No blood, no foul," is the way it should be :)

Damn, I miss those days.

2007-12-20 08:17:31
26.   Josh Wilker
24 : Funny you mention Bird dunking and that Knicks comeback playoff win in the same comment: Bird feebly popping his reverse dunk attempt against the Knicks during that series is the exact moment when I knew the glory years were absolutely, incontrovertibly over.

And since we're reminiscing about the Knicks of the 1990s, may I offer my nomination for the greatest dunk of all-time: Starks' left-hand jam against the Bulls.

2007-12-20 08:24:59
27.   Raf
26 I had a poster of "The Dunk" hanging in my room :)

Note Ewing shoving BJ Armstrong out of the way

2007-12-20 08:40:07
28.   pistolpete
About the only people who considered Anthony Mason and Charles Oakley 'lovable' were their mothers... ;-)

Re: The Knicks - I had begun to think I had gotten bored with the sport itself, but then I realized it's got everything to do with the current state of the team at the Garden - no personality, no pizazz, just nothing.

Anyone seen the 'Spring of '94' documentary on MSG? Go watch it this instant if you need a reminder of how exciting things were on the court that year.

On the ice too!

2007-12-20 08:54:12
29.   Alex Belth
It's funny, dunks are so passe, such a regular part of the highlight loops, it's hard to imagine a dunk like the one Starks had having the same kind of impact...but it was so improbable. The young, scrubby Starks elevating over Jordan and the mighty Bulls, left-handed no less. Would have been a better highlight--i.e. the Jeter flip--had the Knicks won. But in a sense, the fact that they lost made the dunk stand out even more, if that makes sense. Both piteful and wunnerful.
2007-12-20 09:30:32
30.   YankeeInMichigan
My NBA history book pretty much ends with the retirement of Willis Reed.

In the winter of '79-'80, my high school team played a game in the Garden. For $3 (or was it $6), students got to sit in the red seats for the high school game and then move up to the blue seats for the Knicks-Golden State game that followed. In the pro game, the lead changed hands frequently, the two teams were consistently within 5 points and no one in the entire Garden (players included) seemed to care less. I walked out in the middle of the 3rd quarter, along with much of the crowd. That was the only time I ever left a pro sporting event mid-game -- until the 16-0 thrashing in Comerica last August (yes, this is still a Yankee blog).

A side note: My interest in the NBA was re-kindled just a bit when Joe Dumars and Larry Brown introduced to Motown a teamwork-and-defense-centric game that evoked memories of Holtzman's Knicks. It's a bit ironic that the Pistons have built a champion on a Knick model while the Knicks crumble under the foibles of a Piston star.

2007-12-20 10:45:58
31.   RZG
0 "Knick fans have been called the most loyal of all New York sporting fans."

Nope, Rangers fans have that attribute.

2007-12-20 10:51:54
32.   Comrade Al
20 While it's not impossible for Tino or Jeter to have used, they didn't go from a contact hitter in an extreme hitter-friendly ballpark to an MVP candidate slugger in a less-than-friendly hitter's park (at least for lefties in terms of HR) virtually overnight. The fact that Ortiz is not featured in the Mitchell makes the whole thing a travesty.
2007-12-20 11:20:19
33.   Raf
32 Al, you may want to check out the following article;

2007-12-20 11:38:38
34.   Just fair
[33 That article made me think how good Nick Jonson could have been (could still be) if not for all his career injuries.. Who knows?
2007-12-20 12:07:41
35.   Comrade Al
33 Yes, the Twins may have mishandled him, but it's a long way for a lefty hitter from 20 HR in 125 games at the Homerdome to 48 HR at Fenway.
2007-12-20 12:20:56
36.   Knuckles
32 It's pretty well acknowledged that Minny biffed on keeping Ortiz, and were it not for the Yanks having an (at the time) (supposed) embarassment of riches at 1B at the time in Giambi and Johnson, he could very well be a Yank. In fact, The Boss wanted him and Cashman eveidently had to explain patiently that as nice a player as Ortiz was/could be, they had a $17M man there as well as an up and coming OBP machine...

I'm not saying Ortiz is or is not a juicer, but the whole idea that he came from nowhere is a little confused- just a wicked little combination of a guy developing slowly in the backwaters of Minnesota, and really hitting his peak in the white hot spotlight of beantown.

2007-12-20 12:21:23
37.   Raf
35 Given health, I doubt it. Besides, it appears Ortiz has hit more HR's on the road than @ Fenway.
2007-12-20 12:23:09
38.   Comrade Al
37 Not surprising, but he played in the same road parks (not sure about interleague, though) in 2002.
2007-12-20 12:23:32
39.   Josh Wilker
In truth Ortiz went from 20 homers in Minnesota to 31 homers the following season in Boston, so it wasn't quite overnight that he surged to league-leading homer power. I'm not saying he (or anyone) is above scrutiny, but he was a big dude (i.e., not like skinny young Pirate Barry Bonds) with a hole in his swing with the Twins, and then he was a big guy who slowly closed up that hole in his swing with the Red Sox. Maybe he used something, but it's possible he just matured as a hitter (most likely I suppose is that it was a little of both).
2007-12-20 12:27:18
40.   Comrade Al
39 The guy had high OBP, so the hole could not have been that big. I remember being surpirsed in 2003 by how different he seemed from the way he was in Minnesota. One game comes to mind, the one he won by hittint a line drive off the Monster off Armando Benitez who was on the Yankees for some reason.
2007-12-20 12:38:10
41.   Josh Wilker
40 : OBP numbers for Ortiz in Minnesota in seasons where he had more than a handful of at-bats:

'98: .371
'00: .364
'01: .324
'02: .339

Not bad, but not really that stellar either, and the fact that the first couple seasons are better than the last couple seem to support the picture of a talented batter struggling to find consistency at the plate.

2007-12-20 12:40:46
42.   Raf
40 He had a high SLG too, increasing every year from 2000-06.

Benitez was brought in for a couple of weeks. Bullpen help, I guess. Don't know why they didn't keep him instead of trading for Jeff Nelson. Was Osuna sucking at the time?

2007-12-20 12:51:25
43.   Comrade Al
41 Hitters with big holes in their swing tend to have OBP lower than .339 (say .239). Is it possible that instead of a good hitter strugling with his mechanics, what we saw was a guy whose fly balls acquired a few extra feet and started going out? No proof, but a distinct possibility, no?
2007-12-20 13:14:45
44.   Josh Wilker
43 : Yeah, like I said in 39 I think either explanation, or a combination of the two explanations, is in the realm of possibility.
2007-12-20 13:36:58
45.   JL25and3
44 I think that's the only important point.
The specific names don't matter that much. The players who were named should be seen only as a representative sample, and every player should be viewed with equal skepticism. Whether Ortiz or not, I take it for granted that players - important players - were using PEDs in the Red Sox clubhouse, and in all the others.
2007-12-20 13:38:47
46.   Comrade Al
45 Pettitte and Clemens without Ortiz, Varitek, etc. makes the sample anything but representative.
2007-12-20 14:36:22
47.   JL25and3
46 It's not comprehensive, but it's representative in the same way that any other random sample is representative. It doesn't matter whether you name this person or that one; you take this group to represent what was going on throughout the game. (Hence "representative.")

The problem is that it's not being played out that way. The explicit indictment of some players is being taken, in effect, as an implicit exoneration of the rest. That's completely backwards; it's an implicit indictment of everyone.

2007-12-20 14:59:33
48.   Mattpat11
I hope the Knicks never get better. They're better than some TV shows.
2007-12-20 15:01:13
49.   Comrade Al
47 I disagree - comprehensive would mean every player from every team. Representative would be some players from every team. What we got is neither therefore it is misleading. Since it was composed by a Red Sox official, it's maliciously misleading.
2007-12-20 15:10:45
50.   Raf
49 Depends on your definition; regarding the report, I'm defining "representative" as it relates to MLB. The team(s) don't matter, the fact that it's prevalent in MLB does.

If Segui or Hundley played for the Red Sox, you'd probably see their name on the list. But once again, the names aren't the point; the fact that there's a list of names is.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-12-20 15:11:47
51.   Raf
50 Maybe I should check the preview box before I hit submit?
2007-12-20 15:24:05
52.   Comrade Al
49 You have a legitimate argument, but I believe that the appearance of heavy bias towards the Red Sox is no coincidence. Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.
2007-12-20 15:35:42
53.   Eirias
As a Pacers fan, I must admit that I am not particularly distraught over the state of the Knicks, though it is somewhat sad to see such a great rival fall so far, not that the Pacers have been much better recently.
2007-12-20 16:54:22
54.   wsporter
10 "I miss my Knicks..." No kiddin', what the hell happened? When will the adults be home at the Garden?
2007-12-20 16:56:18
55.   JeremyM
So that Grimsley affidavit was finally released, and low and behold, Clemens name isn't on it as was previously reported. Luckily, the media has learned from their mistake from that incident and aren't casting judgment on him this time around....d'oh!
2007-12-20 19:02:50
56.   williamnyy23
55 Clemens absence in the Grimsley affidavit is not insignificant. After all, of those named, Canseco, Knoblauch, Watson and Hill were all teammates of Grimsley during the 2000 season. Roger Clemens was also on that team. Wouldn't it then make sense that if Clemens was doing steroids as alleged, Grimsley would have at least had suspicions?

Does Grimsley's failure to implicate Clemens prove he is innocent? No, but it should give pause to those leading the lynch mob. After all, it would seem that Grimsley would be an ideal person to substantiate McNamee's claims.

If Clemens did juice, shouldn't at least one piece of corroborating evidence exist? Do McNamee or Radinksi have a canceled check? No. Is there one person in whom McNamee confided who has stepped forward? No. Have other named teammate impicated him? No. It really defies logic that Clemens used steroids for so long, yet no evidence exists beyond the wavering testimony of one man. I guess Clemens could be a master at covering his tracks, but still, you'd think one other piece of information would have come forward by now.

2007-12-20 19:04:48
57.   Chyll Will
Dim, how could you forget our favorite slam-dunk champion: Kenny "Sky" Walker! >;)

Does anyone remember when Craig Hodges was on the squad for about a minute with Tucker? Bill Cartwright impaling everyone (even his own teammates at times) on his elbows? Mark and Rod battling for the start? John Friggin McCleod??

2007-12-20 19:13:19
58.   Chyll Will
54 While I was working on my latest gig, which was by all opinions a test of endurance, our favorite catch phrase was "No Rhetorical Questions". Anything that made any kind of sense was banished from our production. If you were caught asking a question that made sense, the grips would grab you and tie you to a 12x12, while everyone else would throw crafty or leftover catering at you and chant "No Rhetorical Questions!" over and over until the gravy formed a permacrust on your hoodie.

Now I pass this hard-learned wisdom to you. Use it well, my friend >;)

2007-12-20 19:16:47
59.   RIYank
56 Thing is, you could say the same thing about Pettitte. Only we know that what McNamee said about Pettitte was true.
2007-12-20 19:32:10
60.   williamnyy23
59 You can't really the same thing about Pettitte. Here are two reasons why:

(1) Pettitte only took HGH for two days, meaning it is plausible that McNamee would have never confided in others about such a short-term experiment, nor would a paper trail have been likely. Clemens, on the other hand, is alleged to have taken steroids over a four year period. That's an awful long time to not leave behind one shred of corroborating evidence.

(2) Pettitte took HGH in 2003, three years after Grimsley was on the team. Clemens, however, is alleged to have taken steroids while Grimsley was still around. Why does Grimsley know so much about other teammates, but not about Clemens?

2007-12-20 20:37:15
61.   JL25and3
49 , 52 "Representative" doesn't mean some from every team. One team can serve to represent all 30 just as easily, particularly if it's not presented as a unique situation. Mitchell clearly and explicitly said that this was not unique or even unusual.

He had the BALCO investigation, and he had two guys from NY, period. That was the info presented to him by the Feds, so that was what he had. He didn't do any real investigating on his own.

I think it's a huge stretch - and a red herring - to think that there was any deliberate bias.

2007-12-21 07:32:24
62.   wsporter
58 Thanks for the tip Chill, now please excuse me while I pull out the half eaten eclair that seems to have become wedged in my ear.

I know that's some nasty symbolism yet it seems somehow apropos given the topic.

2007-12-21 07:37:10
63.   Schteeve
The Knicks have been so bad for so long, that they basically killed my interest in the NBA. It's ridiculous how mismanaged that team is.
2007-12-21 07:45:46
64.   Comrade Al
61 Disagree. Had there been no bias, he would have worried about "appearance of impropriety"; he didn't. There was a confirmed case of steroid use on 2004 Red Sox (Lescanic), but nobody bothered to look there. Why not? As they say, just follow the money.

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