Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
And the Winner is...Doh!
2007-12-11 05:38
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

George King has a story today about Hideki Matsui. Still no clear word on whether the Yanks will trade him or if he'll waive his no-trade clause. Murray Chass has a piece on Bobby Meacham, a player who is memorable for all the wrong reasons for Yankee fans.

Not much else going on in the world of the Yankees at this moment, so allow me to digress. I just finished a story for Variety on how genre movies have fared in the Best Picture department over the years (not well). Here's something to chew on--what are the best movies that were nominated for Best Picture but did not win? Here's my list of the Top Twenty. Oh, and I'm a sucker, I didn't have stones to make a Top Ten...Also, you can choose a movie even if you think it wasn't the best movie of that particular year. For instance, I have "Chinatown" on my list even though I wouldn't have given it the top prize over "The Godfather II."

The Front Page
Grand Illusion
The Thin Man
The Maltese Falcon
Citizen Kane
Great Expectations
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
Sunset Blvd
12 Angry Men
Bonnie and Clyde
The Last Picture Show
Dog Day Afternoon
Taxi Driver
The Right Stuff
Dangerous Liasons

Honorable Mention: Raging Bull, The Philadelphia Story, E.T., Hope and Glory, Breaking Away, Prizzi's Honor, Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

And hey, while we are at it, how about the Top Ten Worst Movies to Win Best Picture? (There are so many, I know...)

The Greatest Show on Earth
Mrs. Miniver
The Sound of Music
Chariots of Fire
Ordinary People
Million Dollar Baby
Dances with Wolves
Forrest Gump

Whatta ya got?

Comments (207)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-12-11 06:06:18
1.   D4P
how about the Top Ten Worst Movies to Win Best Picture?


2007-12-11 06:25:07
2.   kylepetterson
I'm still pissed that Harry and the Hendersons didn't even get nominated.
2007-12-11 06:26:40
3.   Dimelo
1 First movie I thought of. I still remember my girlfriend at the time thought that the final scene was so romantic, where DeCrapio gives that girl his piece of wood (no pun intended, seriously) so she can stay afloat and live while he dies. I thought it was stupid and would only apply to about 1% of men on this planet - where they'd die over a girl they just met on a cruise. I still think that was one of the sappiest and dumbest scenes I've ever seen.
2007-12-11 06:31:37
4.   JL25and3
I loved Ordinary People.

Oliver! should make that second list. That's when I stopped taking awards seriously, because even as a kid I knew that movie sucked.

2007-12-11 06:33:12
5.   Cru Jones
3 LOL. I can see why she's no longer your girlfriend and you're left with posting messages on the internets!

Anyway, a nominee for top-10 worst movies to win the oscar = Gladiator. What a farce. "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" and "Traffic" were both better movies (though neither were classics).

Russel Crowe's win (for Gladiator) over Tom Hanks (for Castaway) for best actor also has to rank up there with the all-time gaffes by the Academny.

2007-12-11 06:34:13
6.   Bbig
Forrest Gump? Worst movie? Are you insane?

yeah harry and the hendersons is an instant classic.

Also, anyone read that igawa was talked about in potential santana talks (read that over on rotoworld)

2007-12-11 06:38:04
7.   OldYanksFan
I think sorta like the MVP award, we need a definition of what makes a movie 'great'. I know there is often a lot of emphasis on the 'artsy' aspects of a flick. I for one, see a movie for one reason above all. To be entertained.

And yes, tickling my intellect and emotions are certainly within the realm of entertainment. But I still think the 'enjoyment' factor is the most important.

We need more categories in these awards.
There needs to be a place for movies like 'Where's Papa' and the (original) 'Producers'.

Will a musical with 'Springtime for Hitler and German' be dropdead funny in a 100 years?

2007-12-11 06:39:50
8.   Alex Belth
Was Forrest Gump good? Yikes. It's in the Field of Dreams mushfest category for me. The only movie where a major star plays a mentally hanicapped person that I've found honestly moving in the past 20 years is My Left Foot. Funny, you mention Oliver! (one of four musicals to win the award in the sixties). I know some people who love that movie and others who really dislike it.

Titanic, yeah, that's a good one too. Ordinary People goes under the heading of the Earnest Drama, like Kramer vs Kramer and American Beauty. All well done enough. Ordinary People won over Raging Bull. In 1990, Dances with Wolves (aka, Plays with Camera) won over Good Fellas. Whitebread wins again!

2007-12-11 06:44:01
9.   D4P
Keys to winning Best Picture:

1. Spend lots of money
2. Have lots of extras (i.e. peasants, warriors, countrymen, etc. running around in the background)
3. Use lots of film (i.e. make the movie really long)

2007-12-11 06:44:11
10.   ChuckM
It was friggin' criminal that Gump won over Pulp Fiction...
2007-12-11 06:46:30
11.   Sliced Bread
Amadeus was one of the worst winners in my opinion.

My shoulda won list (off the top of my head):

A Few Good Men

and 3 from 1987:
Broadcast News
Fatal Attraction

2007-12-11 06:47:31
12.   OldYanksFan
RE: Santana Talk...
Is anyone else disappointed that the Yankees couldn't get more creative in their offers for Santana? Maybe a little out-of-the-box, and see how Minn. reacts?

They want young. They want talent. They want cheap. Could we include Matsui in a deal, where we pay his salary? Maybe Shelly? How about quanitity from Tier 2?

The truth is, we really only have to offer better then Boston. I don't know if Minn. can afford to risk only getting 2 draft picks.

IPK, Melky, Duncan, AGon, 2 other Tier 2 guys?
What's 2 years of a paid for Matsui worth?
If we were willing to give up Phil, how about Melancon and Betances instead?

Aren't there about a dozen decent 'groups' we could try?

2007-12-11 06:51:28
13.   Alex Belth
I didn't include Moonstruck in the shoulda, coulda category, but that was a really good comedy, soup to nuts.

Keys to winning the Big One. Make an epic, or a "serious" or "important" drama. War movies and bio-pics do well. Musicals do okay too. And, nowadays, yeah, spend mucho loot publicizing it.

2007-12-11 06:53:21
14.   OldYanksFan
I loved Forrest Gump, although it got long at times. The way they worked him into presidential history was a blast.

Anyone every see 'The Music Man' with their kids?
I bought it for my baby daughter. She must have watched it 30 times. And no matter how tired and bleary eyed she would get, when '76 Trumbones' come on at the end, she would ALWAYS pop up and march in place to the music.

Gotta be some kind of award for that!

2007-12-11 06:53:29
15.   Adrian
0 I don't see how you can put Million Dollar Baby at the same level as Crash. MDB was more or less in a vacuum, while literally every other movie that was nominated deserved the Oscar more than Crash.
2007-12-11 06:54:12
16.   OldYanksFan
Hey... has anyone every seen numbers on a stat called: sOPS+
2007-12-11 06:59:05
17.   Bags
Man, I love Moonstruck.

I live in the neighborhood where it was filmed. This sounds ridiculous, but I swear that's a part of my attachment to the place...

Great soundtrack, btw.

2007-12-11 07:00:31
18.   rsmith51
Did I miss Chicago on your list? I will never have those 2 hours back...

I enjoyed several movies on your worst list. Though I agree that some didn't deserve to win the top prize.

2007-12-11 07:03:14
19.   williamnyy23
0 I'd add the following to your list:

Wizard of Oz
Double Indemnity
Miracle on 34th Street
The Caine Mutiny
Anatomy of a Murder
The Hustler
To Kill a Mockingbird
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
L.A. Confidential

And...because this is a Yankee blog:

The Pride of the Yankees

2007-12-11 07:04:55
20.   williamnyy23
12 Believe it or not, today's Star Tribune mentions that the Yankees and Twins had talked about a Hughes, Melky and Igawa deal. In other words, I am sure the teams have been creative, but I'd imagine the Twins wouldn't budge off of Hughes..nor should they (of course, I also think they shouldn't budge off of Buccholz).
2007-12-11 07:05:42
21.   Sliced Bread
How about "The Usual Suspects" not being nominated?

Not saying it could have taken "Braveheart" but it deserved a best picture nod.
Heck, it won best screenplay.

2007-12-11 07:07:39
22.   D4P
Did I miss Chicago on your list?

Ugh. Terrible.

2007-12-11 07:07:59
23.   williamnyy23
16 Yes...its OPS+ split into home and away components. also tracks tOPS+, which is the split component, but compared to a players team instead of MLB.
2007-12-11 07:11:22
24.   Josh Wilker
Not yet mentioned underappreciateds (off the top of my head; dunno if they were nominated):

The Wild Bunch
Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia
Down By Law and/or Mystery Train
Ghost World
Touched By Evil
McCabe and Mrs. Miller

2007-12-11 07:20:02
25.   OldYanksFan
20 I believe they can get a deal done with Hughes, but I, and many others (including Cashman) am against it.

While Buchholz is better then IPK, there are other players that can make our deal better then the Sox. Plus, the Sox have never offered Buchholz.

Don't you agree that Minn has to make a deal?
Do you believe their bluster that maybe they can keep him? Run against Detroit for 2008?
Might they hold tight thinking someone will take them seriously in July 2008? I think the deeper into 2008 they go, the less bargaining power they have.

Are you telling me WE can't come up with an IPK List that will get the Job done? We're are competing against 'Lester and Crisp'.

And is subbing Iggy for a Tier 2 prospect creative? He still costs $4.5m/yr. Even if we pay his salary, what's he worth?

Duncan AND Duncan?
Duncan AND Duncan AND Gardner + IPK, Melky and Melancon?

And what about sOPS+?

2007-12-11 07:24:14
26.   Andre
A few more of the worst to win:

Shakespeare in Love
English Patient

A few that should have won (although maybe not against the movies they were up against):

Shawshank (one of my top movies of all time)
In the Name of the Father
Full Metal Jacket

2007-12-11 07:24:50
27.   Alex Belth
Hey Josh, I don't think any of those movies were nominated. Do you mean Touch of Evil the O. Welles movie? I don't think I know Touched by Evil. McCabe is one of my favorites, and I love Diner too.

Moonstruck was actually filmed mostly in Toronto, though they do have a couple of shots on Court street and of course, the bakery on Henry street, which is now, what? a trendy little restaurant, right? What was it, Madonia? It was still the same bakery as the one in Moonstruck when I lived in Carroll Gardens from 94-2000, though it closed around 98-99, something like that.

I didn't dislike Chicago as much as some of you guys, though it's not a movie I'd willingly sit through again. Mostly, my issue with the movie was that it has so many cuts that you deprives the audience of the basic joy of watching singers sing and dancers dance. Then again, since none of the principals, with the exception of CKJones, had any chops, the medium--fancy editing, whizzing camerawork--had to make-up for their limitations.

Then again, the cinematic language that made muscials so winning through the fifites, and what made Silent Comedies so great, is but a memory. A simple pratfall just isn't filmed properly anymore. Everything is close-up. It's not funny, if you need to use more than four cuts, and include slow-motion, to film a guy slipping on a bannana peel. You know, one of the worst musicals is "Finnegan's Rainbow," an early Coppola movie, where he films all the dances sequences from the waist up.

2007-12-11 07:25:11
28.   NJYankee41
Say what you will about Forest Gump, but I really enjoyed that movie. Its fair to say it wasn't a particularly great film, but it was a fun watch.

I can't believe Raging Bull isn't on your top 20 considering Ordinary People is on your bottom 10. Raging Bull was so powerful and one of the greatest performances by any actor.

I'm going to throw in The Grapes of Wrath and The Ox-Bow Incident. And for a non-nominee I select Once Upon a Time in the West and that completes my Henry Fonda trifecta.

2007-12-11 07:25:30
29.   Alex Belth
I liked In the Name of the Father. Great music-cue/cut to "All Along the Watch Tower" early in the movie.
2007-12-11 07:26:35
30.   OldYanksFan
I still don't think it's accurate to adjust OPS+ by a ParkFactor which is based on runs scored.

I am currently working on a DB that will create a PF based on OBP and SLG. How many times has 1 team 'out slugged' another but put up less runs.

2007-12-11 07:29:45
31.   Alex Belth
I think DeNiro's performance in Raging Bull is one of the most overrated in movie history. At the time, people seemed to judge the merits of his acting based on how much weight he gained and lost. Scorsese once said that Raging Bull was about a man who lost everything and then gained it back spiritually at the end of the movie. Based on that, I think the movie was a failure. I never found that LaMotta captured any grace. Visually, it's brilliant, though most of the images were co-opted from movies like Body and Soul. The editing and the sound are incredible too. But like with Good Fellas, I think the technique overwhelms the story. It is just so dazzling that it becomes the story, especially in Good Fellas, where I think it might work even better, because he was trying to capture the feeling, the lifestyle of these crooks.

For my money, I prefer Taxi Driver, which is expressionistic and scary and funny.

2007-12-11 07:33:34
32.   ms october
1 3 i am very proud of the fact that i have never seen titanic.

20 25 buccholz is (wrongly) being put in the same class as joba and that's my guess as to why the twins are "allowing" the red sox to go to their "next best 'prospect'"

2007-12-11 07:36:40
33.   cercle
I don't know if I could put it in a "worst to win" catagory, simply because I liked the trilogy as a whole, but LOTR: Return of the King was not a Best Picture. Fellowship, however, should have won. Of the three, that is the one that best stands alone as a complete film. Also, A Beautiful Mind, which won that year, was dreadful. ROTK won because the trilogy was excellent and they had to reward it.

The problem with the Academy Awards is that they are constantly correcting past mistakes. I mean Denzel Washington wins Best Actor for Training Day? That performance doesn't crack his top 5. He should've had at least 2 Best Actors already, though, so everybody voted for him that year. It was like a, "Oh, we better make sure he wins one" kinda thing. Crowe for Gladiator was kinda the same thing. I guarantee Depp will win this year for Sweeney Todd.

2007-12-11 07:39:20
34.   JasonO
This was mentioned earlier, but Shakespeare in love's win over Saving private ryan was the night that I ceased watching the Academy Awards...It was analogous to the day in high school where I discovered that the Heisman trophy was a complete sham: When Ty Detmer won over Rocket Ismail.

Say what you want about Spielberg's decisions in the middle 1/3 of SPR, it was still clearly better than that overly melodramatic claptrap.

Belth: Last scene of Taxi Driver -- Is DeNiro dead and is picking up C. Shepard in his version of Heaven, or is this chance encounter an "actual" event?

2007-12-11 07:41:59
35.   Alex Belth
I never thought about that. I always took the last scene at face value.

Oh, and I don't take the Award seriously. I lost any belief in them around the time I knew there was no Sanity Claus. Still, like the MVP voting and the Hall of Fame voting, it's fun to bs about it.

I thought Pesci gave the best performance in Raging Bull. Cathy Moriarty was good too.

2007-12-11 07:44:25
36.   williamnyy23
25 By creative, do you mean trick Minnesota into something they don't want? It seems pretty clear to me that the Twins want Hughes...period. I am not sure how you can get creative with such a hardline stance. Now, you may think the Yankees can craft a non-Hughes package that is better than Boston's, but the Twins also seem to really like Ellsbury. Like it or not, it's Hughes versus Ellsbury on this one.

As for Iggy, the Star Trib implies that the Twins were interested in him.

For sOPS+ see 23 .

2007-12-11 07:45:59
37.   NJYankee41
31 Good points. The weight gain aspect never impressed me too much since really anyone can do that. But what gets me with DeNiro is the way he watches everything and how his eyes move around making you guess what is going on in that mind of his. Raging Bull and Taxi Driver are where he was on the top of his game. What makes me prefer Raging Bull is the simple fact that Travis Bickle's cause was a bit over the top while LaMotta dealt with emotions that are easier to relate with. on't get me wrong though, I love both movies.
2007-12-11 07:47:51
38.   williamnyy23
32 The range of views on pitching prospects is really fascinating. Joe Sheehan seems to have it as Hughes, Buccholz, Chamberlain, while K. Law has the reverse. Basically, I think the Twins are giving each team an untouchable: the Yankees get Joba and the Sox get Buccholz. Unfortunately for the Yankees, Hughes belongs in that class as well.
2007-12-11 07:48:31
39.   Bags
27 Alex, don't burst my bubble.

The old Cammareri bakery was a series of little restaurants for a bunch of years but I think it is a bakery/pastry place again. You can still see the door to the basement where Nic Cage worked.

I'm pretty sure the exterior they used for the house shot is on Cranberry street.

And don't tell me that the scene with the old man and the dogs wasn't shot on the Promenade. Please...

2007-12-11 07:48:52
40.   JL25and3
Alex, I'll back you all the way on Forrest Gump. Lots of people adored that movie, and I couldn't figure out why.

Other thoughts for the first list:

The Third Man
Your favorite Hitchcock, unless your favorite Hitchcock is Rebecca, which I doubt.

2007-12-11 07:50:17
41.   Alex Belth
Yeah, I know some people find Taxi Driver's violence synthetic, too tabloid. What's great about Raging Bull is that outside of the ring, Scorese uses slow motion almost exclusively from Jake's POV, which punches home his paranoia and jealousy.
2007-12-11 07:51:25
42.   JasonO
Hey cercle:

Not only was Gladiator a good enough performance to win best actor, but the academy was justified to give it to Crowe because he was without a doubt the best male actor of the 1990's:
1) Hando in Romper Stomper...see it.
2) Then he turns around and gives a great performance as a conflicted, lonely gay guy. "The Sum of Us"
2) Bud White in LA Conf.
3) Wigand in the Insider.

2007-12-11 07:52:35
43.   Josh Wilker
27 : Yes, I meant Touch of Evil!

And Alex, you are right on about Raging Bull being overrated. Deniro is far better in Taxi Driver (not to mention King of Comedy).

Best part about Raging Bull is that it started the great running story of Frank Vincent getting brained. First Pesci did it to him with a car door in Raging Bull, then Pesci did it to him again when Vincent told him to get his shinebox in Goodfellas, then the Sopranos came to a climax of sorts with the crushing of Vincent's head by a car (no sign of Pesci). I think I once heard that Pesci and Vincent started out as a vaudeville team of sorts, but that sounds too good to be true.

2007-12-11 07:53:27
44.   Saburo
Alex: I'm STILL waiting for a DVD release of "Tootsie" that even approaches the contents of my old Criterion Collection laserdisc (a precious two-disc platter now riddled with laser rot).
2007-12-11 07:53:47
45.   Alex Belth
Rebecca is good, a great chick flick. And it's as much a Selznick movie as a Hitchcock movie. But I'm the wrong guy to ask about Hitch. I like the 39 Steps, Notorious, and some others, but mostly, I really dislike his movies. He had too much of a disdain for actors, and I think he cheated a lot when he got to America--all those cheesy blue screens. Obviously, he's a hugely influencial and talented filmmaker. Just not my taste. Then again, I don't like Kubrick either.
2007-12-11 07:53:54
46.   Schteeve
I guess when the "Yankees have an interest in ... Corey Patterson" you might as well talk about movies.


Also, if you can get Cain for Matsui, by all means do it. But I don't like the idea of trading him for "pitching help."

I love Giambi as much as the next guy but you know he's going to have some weird injury next May that will put him on the shelf for 2 months and without Matsui, that sorta leaves a pretty big hole.

Then, that Patterson quote scares the bejesus out of me.

2007-12-11 07:54:19
47.   Levy2020
1 I agree times 10.
2007-12-11 07:56:38
48.   Alex Belth
Yeah, but Vincent--who was signing partners with Pesci before they got into movies--got his revenge in Casino. God, I think King of Comedy might be Scorsese's scariest movie. Man, Ruppert Pupkin. Get the willies just thinking about him.
2007-12-11 07:59:16
49.   JasonO
Yo fave scene in Casino is when F. Vincent is talking to the diamond merchant:

"Oh now he speaks English??!!?
Ok, let's talk turkey!!"

Vincent is great.

2007-12-11 07:59:40
50.   williamnyy23
45 Disdain for actors? It always seemed to me that his movies relied heavily on them (I'm thinking about Dial M, Psycho and Rope, for example).
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-12-11 08:00:17
51.   ms october
38 yes, it is really fascinating how the pitching prospects are being viewed and valued. and if you expand it past the realm of yanks/red sox the "order" with kershaw and a few others makes for even more disagreement.
that is exactly the problem, that the yankees are not able to put hughes as an untouchable if they want to acquire santana - the "drop" from joba to hughes is much smaller (or even to some - jim callis is a big hughes fan) than the drop from hughes to ipk.
2007-12-11 08:01:26
52.   Josh Wilker
48 : You know, I think I've seen every movie Scorcese's made except the Howard Hughes one, "Who's That Knocking at my Door," and Casino, except for bits and pieces on TV. What I saw was frustrating for it's superheavy reliance on a narrator, explaining and explaining and explaining. But I'm glad Frank Vincent had his day.
2007-12-11 08:01:36
53.   JasonO
Hold the f***ing phone...Belth, you can't make a Kubrick exception for Dr. Strangelove?
2007-12-11 08:01:38
54.   JL25and3
33 I didn't think A Beautiful Mind was a great movie by any means, but it's one of the best depictions of mental illness I've seen. They caught that a delusional system is experienced as entirely real and often threatening; that a chronic schizophrenic, even treated, is always going to be at least a little weird; and that sometimes the best they can do is to live better with their symptoms.

Granted, I've never heard of schizophrenics experiencing their hallucinations as actual imaginary friends. But I'll cut them some slack for the need to make them concrete and visible; besides, it helped convey the sense of absolute reality.

Not to mention that it got Ed Harris into the movie.

2007-12-11 08:02:12
55.   williamnyy23
46 Where does that quote come from? Patterson wouldn't be an awful 4th OF'er/pinch runner, but any role larger than that would be giving away outs.
2007-12-11 08:04:12
56.   JL25and3
45 I'm with you on preferring Hitchcock's B&W movies, by a lot. Notorious would be my choice.
2007-12-11 08:05:16
57.   NJYankee41
51 Its easy to imagine that if Joba wasn't in the picture and the Yankees deemed Hughes untouchable, Kennedy would become much more valuable.
2007-12-11 08:07:27
58.   williamnyy23
51 This time last year, the concensus was Bailey or Hughes for best pitching prospect in the game. Homer Bailey seems to have taken a big step back.

In his chat last week, Sheehan said something interesting...basically, he stated that Hughes performance in the ALDS was sticking in the back of his mind. Well, it has also been in the back of my mind too. I've gone back and forth on the Santana deal, but the one think that keeps tugging me is how he performed (and carried himself) in that crucial game 3. Had he not come into that game, I think I'd be a lot more comfortable with trading him. Who knows, not only did Hughes pick up the Yankees only post season win, but he might have also saved his Yankee career with that outing.

2007-12-11 08:07:35
59.   Mike T
No love for Million Dollar Baby? I thought that was a good movie.
2007-12-11 08:08:24
60.   JL25and3
42 The Academy got it completely backwards. Russell Crowe is a fine actor, but Denzel kicked his ass that year in Hurricane. (Not a particularly good movie, but a great acting job.) The next year Crowe should have won for Beautiful Mind, but Denzel got it for that vile and offensive piece of crap Training Day.
2007-12-11 08:14:38
61.   JasonO
Mike, I thought it was cheap and cloying of Clint to introduce the euthanasia issue in the last few minutes of the movie.

Not to mention his Iwo Jima double feature, where he portrays the Japanese as more honorable/moral/courageous than the Americans...I didn't understand that, it's not supported by the historical record.

2007-12-11 08:18:00
62.   cercle
42 While I disagree that his performance in Gladiator was worthy of a Best Actor Award, and while I wouldn't call Russell Crowe the best actor of the 90's (though he's in the discussion), what you said is basically my point. Crowe should've won for The Insider the year before, but they gave to (I believe) Spacey. Giving it to him for Gladiator was like a make-up call.
2007-12-11 08:18:33
63.   OldYanksFan
36 "By creative, do you mean trick Minnesota into something they don't want?"
No... It means we won't give up Hughes, but... How about this? Or this? Or this?

It's no trick, just giving them other things to think about. It's called bargaining. Basically, Minn. HAS to trade Santana, either now or next summer. Aside from Santana's wishes (and he DOES have the final say), Minn will pick the best PACKAGE.

Maybe they WANT Hughes, but we don't have to offer him. We have to offer a BETTER PACKAGE then the competition (and I'm not even sure IF there is competition).

Can/will the Sox beat IPK, Melky, Gardner, Duncan and Melancon?
Can/will the Sox beat IPK, Melky, Gardner, Duncan, Melancon and Hilligoss?
Can/will the Sox beat IPK, Melky, Gardner, Duncan, Melancon, Hilligoss and Marquez?

I would rather give up our 7,8 and 9 prospects then Hughes (our #1 prospect).

Is it worth a shot? Open a dialog?

2007-12-11 08:20:13
64.   Alex Belth
No, actually, I think Strangelove is slow and boring. And I think Sellers was suprerior in Lolita, which is probably my favorite Kubrick movie. The Killing, Paths of Glory I like too.

As for Hitch, here's a good quote, "I never said all actors are cattle; what I said was all actors should be treated like cattle."

You know what Scorsese movie I love? The little documentary he did for the Bi-Centential on his parents (filmmakers were assigned to cover different immigrant experiences). It's not long, and just his folks being interviewed in their apartment, but it's inventive and wonderful.

2007-12-11 08:32:52
65.   Jersey
Scanning the comments, I don't believe I saw anyone list Apocalypse Now for best movie to miss out on Best Picture. Definitely makes my Top 5 all-time list.

For the Scorsese fans, I recently watched Kundun. Have to recommend it. Amazing, and occasionally mesmerizing.

2007-12-11 08:33:27
66.   williamnyy23
63 I'm confused...are you suggesting that the Yankees weren't trying to put together a package without Hughes? I think it was clear from all the reports that the Yankees did their best to keep Phil off the table, but Minnesota insisted he'd be in the package. At that point, it's up to the Twins to back down from that demand.

Without Hughes, I don't think the Yankees can beat a package that includes Ellsbury and Lowrie. The deals you mentioned are all woefully inadequate. Garner and Duncan are non-prospects, Melancon is coming off an injury and Marquez and Hilligoss are second-tier guys. There is no way IPK and Melky can carry a deal for Santana.

As long as Boston is willing to deal Ellsbury, the Yankees will need to include Hughes. You can't open a dialogue if you ignore the demands of your partner.

2007-12-11 08:36:44
67.   Shaun P
54 I remember seeing "A Beautiful Mind" in the theater, and when it became very clear that Nash's "friends" were just figments of his imagination, most of the audience was audibly shocked.

Maybe I was seeing the movie with a lot of people who didn't pick up the clues or were a little slow - but at the time I thought Crowe's performance sold it perfectly.

63 Quantity does not make up for quality, especially to a scouting-savvy organization like the Twins. Why would they waste roster spots on filler? There's a reason you don't see 1 for 7 trades - they aren't practical, and no team's system is so bad that the filler they'd get in a 1 for 7 deal is better than what they've got.

Besides, none of your offers above include the Yanks' 7th, 8th, and 9th best prospects (at least according to BP, they are Montero, Brackman, and Edwar).

2007-12-11 08:37:21
68.   mehmattski
64 Clearly, Peter Seller's best movie was The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension. Also in that movie: John Lithgow, Jeff Goldblum, Christopher Lloyd, and Ellen Barkin. And it debuted on the day I was born (Friday, July 13, 1984). And it's the origin of "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are."

And it wasn't even nominated for Best Picture... so much better than Amadeus.

2007-12-11 08:37:41
69.   williamnyy23
64 By disdain, you mean his personal feeling about them. I was referring to how he direct his movies. To me, didain for actors would be minimizing their impact (e.g., by using special effects). Instead, Hitchock seemed pefectly comfortable with having actors (often only a handful) carry the show. Dial M and Rope are perfect example as they both take place in one room.
2007-12-11 08:40:04
70.   mehmattski
68 Of course, that's Peter Weller in Buckaroo Banzai, not Peter Sellers. D'oh!
2007-12-11 08:42:48
71.   Alex Belth
Apocalypse Now. Great call. Movie is a mess but a brilliant one.
2007-12-11 08:43:42
72.   Alex Belth
Anyone who is serious about Sellers needs to listen to where he got his start, on BBC radio, on the legendary (at least in England) Goon Show.
2007-12-11 08:46:48
73.   ms october
57 58 good point on kennedy's value - and hughes's performance in game 3.
i too have been back and forth for many of the same reasons and that game and the near no-hitter are very impressive.
2007-12-11 08:52:55
74.   vockins
Barry Lyndon

Rocky is great, but Network kicks its ass.

2007-12-11 08:58:06
75.   ms october
64 69 i wonder if hitchcock's cattle-like view for actors is what led him to rely on a core handful of actors as he was comfortable with them.
i watched almost every hitchcok movie with my dad when i was a kid (and here's a caution - don't have a 7 year old watch the birds)and i loved them then.
2007-12-11 09:06:36
76.   Todd S
I gave up on the Academy Awards when they picked Chariots of Fire over Raiders of the Lost Ark. There may not be anything "redeeming" about Raiders, but it was a hell of a lot of fun.
2007-12-11 09:13:34
77.   cercle
As far as Hitchcock goes, it's hard to believe Rear Window wasn't nominated for Best Picture. Not that it should've beaten On the Waterfront, but not even nominated? Hitchcock did get a Best Director nod.
2007-12-11 09:16:45
78.   Shaun P
Way off topic: anyone else see this on amazon?

New York, New York: A Season with the Mets and the Yankees (Hardcover) by Emma Span

Way to go Emma!

2007-12-11 09:26:13
79.   JL25and3
78 Yeah, that's been in the works for a while. It's not coming out until April, though.

I assume that's why she hasn't been around in so long, not even on her own blog.

2007-12-11 09:41:48
80.   Levy2020
63 I assume that offer didn't get made for the same reason you want to make it. Clearly Hughes is worth more than all those other guys.
2007-12-11 09:56:39
81.   weeping for brunnhilde
8 Not only was Forest Gump a train wreck, in terms of sheer production, but I found it cynical and offensive as well.
2007-12-11 09:58:57
82.   OldYanksFan
80 I propose swapping IPK for Hughes and making up the 'difference between Hughes and IPK' with 2 or 3 additional quality prospects.

Again... It ONLY has to be better then what ANYONE ELSE OFFERS. Trading Santana is not an option. The Twins have their backs against the wall.

Let's remember of the Sox 'Big 3' of Buccholz, Lester and Ellsbury, they are ONLY willing to give up ONE of those 3. They made NO offers that included 2 of those 3 guys.

Is everyone here telling me we can't beat a 'Lester and Crisp' offer without including Hughes?

2007-12-11 10:02:00
83.   weeping for brunnhilde
65 Mine too. Just bought myself a copy a couple weeks ago. I also bought a copy of the Conformist and suddenly I realized they're the same film!

Both of them feature "protagonists" tasked to assassinate someone and deal with the same themes of shifting identity, existential absurdity, etc.

Two perfect films.

I don't find it a mess at all, Alex. Or perhaps, as you say, it's such a brilliant mess that I just don't care.

Also, you mentioned Grand Illusion, which I also just bought recently, one of my favorites. But what about Joyeux Noel/Merry Christmas?

Did that win anything?

It damn well should have.

The pathos of the Silent Night scene nearly ripped my insides out and I broke down right there in the theater.

2007-12-11 10:03:06
84.   weeping for brunnhilde
78 Wow, she finished it?!

Rock the fuck on, Emma!!


2007-12-11 10:08:02
85.   JL25and3
Since we're talking about great movies that didn't win Best Picture, foreign films don't really count. But if it's just great movies, Grand Illusion makes my very, very short list.
2007-12-11 10:14:12
86.   Raf
Meanwhile, over @ WasWatching...

Courtesy of baileywalk (reader) and Pete Abe, & the Hartford Courier

"Carl Pavano is still mulling a Yankees proposal to release him and then re-sign him to a minor league contract. He said Monday he is not close to a decision.

"I'd be giving up a lot of options if I signed a minor league deal," Pavano said."

2007-12-11 10:19:16
87.   williamnyy23
82 It isn't a Lester and Crisp offer. It's a Ellsbury/Lester and Lowrie offer with Masterson included as well.

Masterson himself might be on par with IPK. Then, you have to account for Ellsbury/Lester as well as Lowrie, who is also considered to be a very good prospect (think on the level of Tabata and AJ).

The reason the Yankees offer is competitive is because of Hughes.

2007-12-11 10:20:31
88.   Nick from Washington Heights
Chiming in late but I found Million Dollar Baby offensively bad. Along with A Time To Kill, it is the worst movie I've seen in a theater.

Recent Eastwood is just plain bad. His depictions of working-class people are condescending caricatures.

I like most of Kubrick's stuff. Found Clockwork Orange disturbing and great, like the Shining, and I found Dr. Strangelove hysterical. I usually don't disagree with Alex on his movie taste, but I wasn't a big fan of Lolita. Mainly, I don't like James Mason--didn't think he was willing to show his depravity, didn't find his performance compelling. I did, on the other hand, think Jeremy Irons did a much better job in a movie that wasn't very good as well.

2007-12-11 10:30:21
89.   Schteeve
55 Corey Patterson would be an expensive waste of a roster spot. You can't tell me we couldn't call up Brett Gardner to give you what you would get from Patterson.

.298 Career OBP. Makes Soriano look like Wade Boggs. Costs 4 million. What's his upside? He's fast???? So is Gardner. If they acquire Patterson, I'm going to freak out.

2007-12-11 10:32:20
90.   Schteeve
Oh, and to answer your question the quote comes from the first article alex linked to in the post, about Matsui.
2007-12-11 10:37:45
91.   williamnyy23
89 Yes...Patterson is a waste of a roster spot...unless you could get him very cheap. He is a very good base stealer and solid outfielder who can play center, so I wouldn't mind pay 2-3x league minimum for him.
2007-12-11 10:39:21
92.   williamnyy23
91 The article also mentions Kris Benson...maybe it's an Orioles' plant!
2007-12-11 10:40:26
93.   weeping for brunnhilde
85 It's such a gem, n'est-ce pas?
2007-12-11 10:44:01
94.   Shaun P
86 Are you kidding me? If Pavano takes the minor league deal, he gets all his money and someone is paying for his rehab and providing him rehab facilities (the Yanks). If the Yanks just DFA him, he still gets the money, but he's got to take care of his rehab out of pocket - and find a place to do it - though he'd have his freedom.

Given that no team in their right mind would offer him a major league contract right now - and I'm not sure anyone would offer him a minor league deal either - why not just take the minor league deal from the Yanks?

2007-12-11 10:48:29
95.   wsporter
94 Sadly, we'll never really understand how much brain damage Carl suffered when he fell on his ass. Sad, so very sad.
2007-12-11 11:01:08
96.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
Shameless plug: I had . . . "something" to do with this film, DAY ZERO, which opens at the Angelika on January 18th.

Starring Elijah Wood, Chris Klein, Ginnifer Goodwin, and Ally Sheedy, the film follows three best friends in NYC in an imagined near-future where the military draft has been reinstated. The three are drafted and given 30 days to report for duty. In that time they're forced to confront their beliefs about courage, honor, duty, friendship and love.

There's a trailer at the site. It's being released by First Look on January 18. I hope you can make it!

Since we're talking about quality films and all...

2007-12-11 11:15:16
97.   bp1
Very surprised nobody has mentioned "The Sandlot". I mean - geez. Squints and the life guard? Oscar worthy performance.
2007-12-11 11:23:18
98.   Matt B
Alex, I don't buy that Hitch disdained actors. Yeah, he made a famous blowhard quote about them (which he claims was misquoted and tongue in cheek), but given his long associations with Stewart & Grant et. al., I can't buy that he hated actors. Plenty of great directors treated stars like shit: Ford, Preminger, Polanski, etc. But to get the performances he did out of Stewart, in particular, clearly he did value actors. Trust the art, not the artist.
2007-12-11 11:24:08
99.   51cq24
96 i thought you were a doctor.
2007-12-11 11:27:57
100.   Matt B
61 I don't know how you came away from the Iwo Jima flicks with that idea. The protagonists of Letters were presented as moral and courageous, but they were also shown to be the exception to a crazy system, who resisted unneccesary killing and ritual suicide. The heroes of the film were meant to be misfits in their own society.

I don't see how Flags had anything bad to say about American soldiers, either.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-12-11 11:30:28
101.   Matt B
71 I used to think Apocalypse Now was a brilliant mess, but now I just think it's flat-out brilliant. It works.

Hmmm, Alex, no love for Hitch or definitely seem to like more naturalistic type filmmaking.

And how about 2001: A Space Odyssey. It lost to Oliver!

2007-12-11 11:34:55
102.   underdog
I participated in a blog discussion and poll about the Worst Best Picture Winners, the results of which can be found here:

Some of the really old ones have been seen by almost no one, because they've been out of print and out of sight for so long, but I did see one of them, Broadway Melody, which is dated and awful. And if you've never sat through The Greatest Show on Earth, well, you're in for a real, uh, un-treat.

Btw, I don't agree with all the ones in that top ten, and some of them were picked not because they were terrible but just because they were clearly not as good as another candidate. While I didn't hate Crash, I did think it was overrated and was a passion pick more than a logic pick.

But for my money, the worst oversight in history is still How Green Was My Valley over Citizen Kane. Classically shortsighted.

This is more up my alley than Condiment Thoughts, which we're having over on DT right now, though that's making me hungry.

2007-12-11 11:35:48
103.   underdog
PS: Apocalypse fans should check out the doc Hearts of Darkness: Filmmaker's Apocalypse, which finally came out on DVD a couple of weeks ago. Amazing!
2007-12-11 11:39:26
104.   williamnyy23
102 Broadway Melody of which year!!?
2007-12-11 11:43:54
105.   underdog
104 The Broadway Melody (late 20s):

Not to be confused with the later ones...of 1938 and so forth.

2007-12-11 11:48:39
106.   Xeifrank
I don't even think I could name 20 movies, let alone know which ones won or didn't win a Best Picture award. vr, Xei
2007-12-11 12:07:36
107.   Jersey
103 Hear, hear. Hearts of Darkness is great. I saw it a good ten years ago on VHS. Didn't even know it was issued on DVD, thanks for the heads-up.

A bit of trivia for DJ Shadow fans: on the UNKLE disc, on the "Main Title Theme" track (#2), there's a snippet of dialogue that plays in the background, of somebody saying "We had too much money, too much equipment, and little by little we went insane." That's Francis Ford Coppola, and it's taken from this documentary.

2007-12-11 12:41:06
108.   Matt B
102 While I'm a huge Citizen Kane fan, How Green Was My Valley gets a bad rap from people, a disturbing number of whom have never even seen the film. It's a great movie and deeply personal for Ford. It's not like Welles lost to a bad film, he lost to his personal filmmaking hero.
2007-12-11 12:42:43
109.   uburoisc
74 Agreed, Network was an exceptional film, and it holds up much better than Rocky does.

A truly great unrecognized gem is "Letter from an Unknown Woman" in 1948 with Joan Fontaine and Louis Jourdan. Directed by the great Max Ophuls. A heavy romantic drama, but a powerful tale and perfect mood.

2007-12-11 12:55:23
110.   Alex Belth
Yeah, I definitely tend towards the more naturalistic directors, though I do also like expressionists like Scorese and DePalma. God, I can't stand Network. Find it preachy and holier-than-thou.

Also, don't forget, The Maltese Falcon also lost out in 1941, and you can make an arguement that it is a finer movie than Kane. Much different, but since I love crisp, storytelling, I prefer it to Kane. Really apples and oranges, but The Maltese Falcon is just about a perfect movie. But there is nothing flashy about Huston's technique. It's not the show, as it often is with Wells or Scorsese. When he was making his final movie, The Dead, Huston's son, Danny remarked at how skilled he was moving the camera. It was something that surprised the younger Huston. And John said something to the effect of, "If you were noticing it, I wouldn't be doing my job."

Oh, man, "Hearts of Darkness" is really good.

Matt, point taken re: Hitch and actors. But James Stewart almost always leaves me flat, no matter who is directing him. But you are right, he did work with the same performers more than once. Part of my distaste for Hitchcock probably has something to do with how hyped he was by the Auteurs.

2007-12-11 12:57:44
111.   weeping for brunnhilde
109 You know what?--I actually own that movie but have still yet to watch it.

I'm glad I'm in for a treat.

2007-12-11 13:01:22
112.   underdog
108 Oh it's not a bad movie by any means, but I saw it recently and found it more dated and sentimental than I expected. But it's fine - and I love John Ford. It's just that Citizen Kane is one of the greatest films ever made, despite the hype, and as pointed out above, I think the Maltese Falcon holds up better, too. But I don't mean to dismiss Valley because it's a really nice film, too.

110 Even Rear Window? One of my all-time favorites.

2007-12-11 13:02:04
113.   weeping for brunnhilde
110 What kind of grouch are you, Alex? James Steward leaves you flat?

"Merrrrrry Christmas, Mister Potter, Merrrrrrrrry Christmas!!"

I'm pretty averse to sentimentality by nature and even I fall for that All-American Persona of his.

Man, you're a tough crowd.

2007-12-11 13:04:29
114.   Alex Belth
No, Hitch cheats like hell in that movie when he doesn't need to. From what I recall, and correct me if I'm wrong, Stewart is looking directly across the way and yet you can see the floors of the apartment where the murder takes place, which literally wouldn't be possible. It's not to say that you don't suspend your disbelief in a movie, but that just seems like an example of Hithcock not really caring about the audience or about credibility. He could have worked around the problem without trying to be slick.

Anyhow, it also goes back to my dislike for Stewart. Just find it hard to make it through any of his movies.

2007-12-11 13:04:34
115.   weeping for brunnhilde
Why did I call him James Steward?
2007-12-11 13:06:04
116.   Alex Belth
Hey, while I'm knocking icons, I don't care for Gregory Peck or Audrey Hepburn either. LOL.
2007-12-11 13:09:29
117.   weeping for brunnhilde
112 Alex must be smoking crack cocaine.

Real Window is amazing. So is Lifeboat. So is North by Northwest. So is that one where they have to plant the key outside on the staircase. I still can't watch the Birds, perhaps the best apocalyptic film ever made. Just from seeing it as a kid on channel 11 or wherever it played was enough. I've seen it a couple times in my adult years and Christ, it spooks the bejesus out of me. It's a sublime and primordial spookiness.

Let the man smoke his crack and think what he likes about Hitchcock.

Oh, and speaking of which, has anyone seen The Panic in Needle Park? It just came out on DVD recently. I'd never seen it before.

You want naturalism, Alex, there's naturalism.

So raw, so painful.

2007-12-11 13:09:59
118.   Matt B
114 So you have no love for Vertigo, Anthony Mann's westerns, Anatomy of a Murder? I give you credit for sticking to your guns, at least.

The Maltese Falcon is one of my 2-3 favorite films of all time and a pretty flawless one. However, Kane not only re-wrote the book, it remains a supremely entertaining and moving film. The real shame is what happened to The Magnificent Ambersons. Even the butchered version we've seen is great; more restrained than Kane, but more deeply felt, in my opinion.

2007-12-11 13:10:53
119.   Matt B
117 Big fan of Panic In Needle Park. I believe Alex is too.
2007-12-11 13:12:07
120.   Alex Belth
I like Lifeboat. Tallulah, baby.

Best Hitchcock movie ever made was Knife in the Water by Polanski...(see how that grabs ya...LOL)

2007-12-11 13:13:28
121.   weeping for brunnhilde
116 :) You know, I don't think I know Gregory Peck. He's one of those icons who's still managed to elude me, unless I've seen him and can't remember. I must have seen him on TCM (the only good cable in the basic package, along with YES and CSPAN). I don't know.

And Audrey Hepburn is really, really cute, but I'm not quite entranced by her or anything.

Now, Katherine Hepburn, on the other hand, now we're talking.

2007-12-11 13:13:38
122.   Matt B
I think Lifeboat is kinda weak. Give me Notorious, Vertigo or Psycho any day. And especially give me Shadow of a Doubt. Joseph Cotten, man.
2007-12-11 13:14:07
123.   Alex Belth
Know what's a great-looking movie? And I know Matt is with me on this one: Sweet Smell of Success. Also, who directed Witness for the Prosecution? Was that Preminger too?
2007-12-11 13:14:58
124.   cercle
Better year for Best Picture nominees?

1941 - Blossoms in the Dust; Citizen Kane; Here Comes Mr. Jordan; Hold Back the Dawn; How Green Was My Valley; The Little Foxes; The Maltese Falcon; One Foot in Heaven; Sergeant York; Suspicion

1939 - Dark Victory; Gone with the Wind; Goodbye, Mr. Chips; Love Affair; Mr. Smith Goes to Washington; Ninotchka; Of Mice and Men; Stagecoach; The Wizard of Oz; Wuthering Heights

'39 has got to be the best collection nominees ever, right? I do love some of those movies from '41, though.

2007-12-11 13:15:11
125.   Matt B
121 I could watch Audrey Hepburn all day, especially in Sabrina, Love In the Afternoon and Two for the Road. Katharine Hepburn was a fantastic comic actress, but I find her sexless.
2007-12-11 13:16:07
126.   Alex Belth
Katerine Hepburn can be shrill, but I love her too. Bringing Up Baby, Pat and Mike, Adam's Rib, etc. I never saw her in the Lumet version of Long Day's Journey but she's supposed to be tremendous in that (I saw Collen Dewhurst and Robards do the show on Broadway and can't bring myself to relive that saga again). Speaking of Lumet, has anyone seen The Hill, with Sean Connery? I've always wanted to see that one.
2007-12-11 13:16:25
127.   weeping for brunnhilde
120 H ah aha ha ha haah a!!

Oh, Christ, there's another one I watched ONCE.

Shivers, from beginning to end.

I'd love to see it again, but I just don't think I could take it.

Last Exit to Brooklyn also belongs in that category.

2007-12-11 13:17:06
128.   Matt B
123 Witness for the Prosecution is Billy Wilder. Fun movie, great Laughton. Right on about Sweet Smell of Success. "You're a cookie full of arsenic, Sidney."

124 How about 1939, John Ford made Young Mr. Lincoln, Stagecoach and Drums Along the Mohawk.

2007-12-11 13:17:13
129.   Schteeve
913 Why would you want Patterson instead of calling up Gardner?
2007-12-11 13:17:57
130.   weeping for brunnhilde
116 Academy of the Overrated.

"Well Jeez, what about Mozart? I mean, you guys don't want to leave out Mozart, while you're trashing people."


2007-12-11 13:18:15
131.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
99 I am. Doctors sometimes have something to do with films. e.g. providing physicals to cast members for insurance purposes. This is very common. Less common: investing in independent films.
2007-12-11 13:18:19
132.   Matt B
126 The Hill came out on DVD a few months back. It's in my Netflix queue.
2007-12-11 13:19:38
133.   weeping for brunnhilde
123 Oh, that's amazing!

I think the whole movie comes down to pacing and rhythm.

2007-12-11 13:22:49
134.   Alex Belth
I'll take '41, but it's close.

Also, I don't think Kubrick's Lolita is great throughout. It's long. But the first 45 minutes or so is great. Love the double entendres.

And, since nobody has mentioned it, I think you could argue that Some Like it Hot is one of the top two or there greatest American Comedies ever.

2007-12-11 13:23:57
135.   Alex Belth
Van Goch, did you hear that, she spit when she said it.
2007-12-11 13:25:47
136.   ms october
117 i'm glad to know i'm not the only one who has a fear of "the birds" - my dad thinks i'm crazy when i tell him that i was traumatized from watching that movie with him when i was 7

122 good calls.

129 i'd rather give gardner a chance too - we know what corey patterson is, if gardner doesn't get a chance this year or next, he might get passed over completely.

2007-12-11 13:27:17
137.   weeping for brunnhilde
135 :)

"Like an Arab, she spoke."

2007-12-11 13:28:43
138.   ms october
134 yeah i think i would take '41 by a hair too.

i loved some like it hot.
that was one of the best comedies i have ever seen.

2007-12-11 13:33:14
139.   weeping for brunnhilde
136 Oh my God, what could be more traumatic than those images?

It's funny you should mention this, though, because I have to make choices about which movies to watch with my 5-year old.

I'm sure I wouldn't watch The Birds with him, but we do watch Lord of the Rings, which transfixes him. Hopefully he won't come back in twenty years telling me about the scars I've visited upon him by exposing him to my rather dark tastes in art.

Ah, the joys of parenting.

2007-12-11 13:33:47
140.   cult of basebaal
dammit ... hate being late to a movie discussion ...

lolita, along with eyes wide shut are the only 2 kubrick films i've never had any interest in rewatching ... dull, dull, dull

strangelove is the darkest, blackest, most cynical movie i've ever seen ... one of the most intelligent and informed too and in my personal top 5 funniest of all time

anyone else see the sellars biopic with geoffrey rush? the scene where he has a very strained lunch with his mother while never breaking character as Strangelove is disturbing and horrifying and brilliant all at once ...

2007-12-11 13:39:31
141.   JL25and3
With all these Maltese Falcon fans, I know I'm not the only one who used to call Miguel Cairo "Joel."

I just saw Kane again recently, and was astonished yet again at how great it is. The Maltese Falcon may well be more perfect, and it doesn't scream out its greatness the way Kane does. But Kane also backs it up pretty well.

One of my absolute favorite moments is Bernstein's recollection of the girl in the white dress. The older I get, the more impressed I am with how deeply, poignantly true it is. Hard to believe that a callow, self-impressed 25-year-old could catch that so movingly.

2007-12-11 13:40:22
142.   weeping for brunnhilde
140 I enjoyed Strangelove. I actually got to see it this summer at BAM. Fun to see in the theater, all of us cracking up and laughing nervously.
2007-12-11 13:43:32
143.   Matt B
I love Strangelove. Sellers gets all the press for it (not that he doesn't deserve it), but the movie doesn't work without Sterling Hayden and George C. Scott. I think Scott's performance is my favorite in the film.

141 Yup, I called him Joel Cairo all the time. And you're on the money with that Everett Sloane moment. I think Mankiewicz wrote that speech, but man, did Welles treat it right or what?

2007-12-11 13:45:10
144.   cult of basebaal
I'll throw in Barton Fink in the overlooked category ...

i personally find it a far stronger film than Silence of the Lambs but that's not an unworthy winner ... my bigger beef is rather that it wasn't even nominated being considered a lesser effort than such now-forgotten dreck as Bugsy, JFK and the motherfucking Prince of Tides ... gack

2007-12-11 13:46:03
145.   Shaun P
140 I adored "The Life and Death of Peter Sellers" - I'm not sure who I liked better after seeing it, Sellers himself or Geoffrey Rush, who was incredible. To play an icon, particularly an eccentric icon, and play him/her well is not an easy task, but Rush pulled it off, and then some.

Its a shame it was limited to HBO, but if anyone with HBO hasn't seen it yet, I'd go out of my way to watch it if I were you.

2007-12-11 13:46:23
146.   Matt B
144 JFK is a bloated piece of hooey, but it's oddly fun for a Stone film. Maybe its all the star cameos.
2007-12-11 13:52:08
147.   weeping for brunnhilde
146 I saw that movie in a hot and humid basement apartment in rural Iowa maybe 15 years ago.

Donald Sutherland stands out.

Oh, and speaking of Donald Sutherland, I recently saw the one with him and Laurence Olivier that they actually just did a remake of.

What the hell was it called? Clue? It was amazing. Really, really good little picture.

2007-12-11 13:53:11
148.   JL25and3
146 Really? I didn't care that much that it was so stubbornly wrong on so many of the facts. I thought its cardinal sin was that it managed to take that ready-made ripsnorter of a story (the assassination, not Garrison) and make such an interminably tedious movie out of it.
2007-12-11 13:53:53
149.   JL25and3
147 That was Sleuth, and it was Michael Caine, not Donald Sutherland.
2007-12-11 13:56:20
150.   Alex Belth
"The Maltese Falcon may well be more perfect, and it doesn't scream out its greatness the way Kane does."

I think that sums up why I prefer Falcon to Kane while it also explains why Kane is great. Kane isn't great because of the script, but because of the theatricality of the telling.

Matt, I agree with your take on Scott's performance.

Know what movie I don't think dated well? Midnight Cowboy.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-12-11 13:58:25
151.   cult of basebaal
143 or Slim Pickens ...

"shoot ... a man could have a pretty good time in vegas with all that stuff ..."

which actually was shot as "a pretty good time in "dallas" ..." but was overdubbed in the aftermath of JFK's assassination

2007-12-11 14:06:25
152.   OldYanksFan
139 Try the 'Music Man'. Opie's first film.
2007-12-11 14:08:50
153.   Alex Belth
Movies to watch with your five year old? Try "Modern Times" and "Duck Soup."
2007-12-11 14:10:09
154.   yankz
Hate to get OT, but WasWatching has gone from questionable to stupid and petty in one day. Dude is running his blog into the ground.
2007-12-11 14:11:24
155.   cult of basebaal
152 "that's trouble with a capital T and that rhymes with P and that stands for POOL!"

"trouble, trouble, trouble ..."

2007-12-11 14:16:08
156.   OldYanksFan
Did any of you see the original?

"Springtime for Hitler and Germany...
Winter for Poland and France"

Am I the only one who appreciates historical movies?

This is a very New York audience.
Up here in the woods, a foreign movie is anything with a minority in it, and old movies don't play unless they have sheep in them.

2007-12-11 14:28:16
157.   ms october
154 agreed. picking one target and beating it to death is not for me.

156 i saw the original (also with my dad when i was a kid) and really liked it back then.
speaking of old and foreign movies - one of my favorites was black orpheus.

2007-12-11 14:32:06
158.   Shaun P
154 I think Steve L. is a very nice guy, and he has some excellent, thought-provoking writing and analysis at WW; I was one of his first readers and commenters, and I really liked that place. But he lost me last year with some of his A-Rod related posts. It was a bit much. OK, it was a ton much.

Now he's on Cashman's case? Hoo boy.

2007-12-11 14:43:06
159.   NJYankee41
154 Wow, I was very disappointed in how he was bashing Cashman every which way for the last 2 days, but the last post pushes the whole bit over the edge.
2007-12-11 14:51:17
160.   weeping for brunnhilde
149 Of course, of course!

I think it's Donald Sutherland in the remake? (Which I've not seen.)

I guess Donald Sutherland and Michael Cane are linked up in my mind for some reason.

In any event, a fine film.

2007-12-11 14:54:00
161.   weeping for brunnhilde
153 Cheers! I think we watched Duck Soup a couple of years ago, and inasmuch as his attention span allowed, he enjoyed it. I should try it again.

And I've never seen Modern Times.

Chaplain's a great, gaping hole in my inventory of films seen.

One of these days...

2007-12-11 14:57:10
162.   weeping for brunnhilde
Ah, I think I know why I confused Sutherland and Cane: I also recently saw the Great Train Robbery. Sutherland was in that.

Another fine film.

2007-12-11 15:06:08
163.   Matt B
Gotta disagree Alex, that Kane script my Mankiewicz and Welles is one of the greats. I think it's more that the Huston and Ford films excel while working in an established cinematic storytelling framework. Kane explodes the framework.
2007-12-11 15:17:20
164.   Bags
147 I'm guessing you are actually talking about Klute, which does star Donald Sutherland. Jane Fonda as well.
2007-12-11 15:29:20
165.   vockins
I think if Alex and I worked in a video store, it would be closed by week one on account of the two of us fighting over movies.

In other arts news completely unrelated to the New York Yankees or any movie that's not Song Remains The Same, did anyone catch the vids of last night's Led Zeppelin concert on youtube?

No. Joke.

Considering Live Aid and that Atlantic Records anniversary, I really thought they would suck. I thought wrong. I'll pay whatever they ask if they play MSG.

2007-12-11 15:40:23
166.   cult of basebaal
165 nice coincidence ... i was just reading the NYT review of the concert ... i'll have to check that out when i get home ... i was just digging "No Quarter" from SRtS on the walk to work today
2007-12-11 15:43:40
167.   Matt B
165 I caught Page & Plant a few years back, expecting that at worst it would be fun, and they totally blew me away.
2007-12-11 15:43:55
168.   ny2ca2dc
158 Nice guy, sure I guess, but always light on analysis and always poor with stats... And way too many self-references for my taste...

But he's better than Pete Abe's analysis!

Add me as a Rear Window fan, maybe because it was my first Hitch (not that I'm a connoisseur now), but he knows how to push the buttons.

2007-12-11 15:55:44
169.   skybluestoday
It's funny, Alex -- you're obviously a Kael acolyte. I mean, come on. I share virtually the exact same tastes as you, and it comes from having my tastes formed by reading her over 25 years-plus of my lifetime.

Unfortunately, I'm a pitifully-poor Kaelite on one level, and it gets me in trouble when I have gotten to meet other prominent Kaelites (critics Steve Vineberg, Terrence Rafferty, etc.). The sad fact is that my favorite filmmaker is Stanley Kubrick. I saw a screening of "2001" in 70mm-6-track Dolby on a huge screen in Brookline, MA when I was about 15, and it simply blew me away. I have never had an experience like that before. I was hooked.

I get lots of sad looks from the Kaelites when I admit my addiction to Kubrick (I insist that "Barry Lyndon" is a radical masterpiece to this day -- guess how that goes over; I get treated like a wayward child who should gently be spanked into line.) But as long as I don't bring that one up (or "2001," god forbid), we usually do fine, as we negotiate our shared heritage with great derring-do and aplomb. ("De Palma??? Love him! Altman? Genius!!! Especially if you've seen the real obsure stuff like "Thieves Like Us" from that classic 1970s roll!)

I think the period of 1967 ("Bonnie and Clyde") through 1975 ("Nashville") was the greatest period of film in American history. I mentioned on this blog recently that I thought the late 1980s were excellent as well -- and you responded with a list of classic 1989 films that made me want to throw off my cap and shout "Huzzah!"

It's been a bit odd to be without dear Pauline's wisdom and guidance for all these years -- I feel a bit like I got turned away from home and am on my own without family resources. But that's okay. That's life. One of the sad things about growing up is having to watch your idols and heroes die.

My favorite films -- or at least the ones I romanticize the most now -- are probably "2001," "The Wild Bunch," and "The Unbearable Lightness of Being." No Oscars there, alas.

(unless you want to include the visual effects award for "2001")

2007-12-11 16:27:24
170.   Matt B
I've never understood Kael worship. I think she's fun to read, even when she's egregiously off, but I don't get the idea of idolizing a critic. Besides, I'd rather read Sarris.
2007-12-11 16:37:13
171.   yankz
Is it possible that everyone's taking Shelley's injury too lightly? It sounds pretty rough, and he's not going to be able to get in shape this winter.
2007-12-11 16:39:51
172.   skybluestoday
Re: 170

Hard to know what to say. She was my favorite writer of all time.

Jimi Hendrix was my favorite musician. Why? God knows. He just sends me.

No accounting for taste? To each his own? One man's meat...?

I never thought of her as a "critic." I thought of her as a Writer.

2007-12-11 16:54:09
173.   JL25and3
156 I don't think of it as "the original." I think of it as "The Producers." And yeah, I've seen it a passel of times.

But speaking of Mel Brooks and originals, the original "To Be Or Not To Be" is one of my all-time favorites - and maybe the most audacious comedy ever made, even more than "The Producers."

Carole Lombard....mmmmmmm.

2007-12-11 16:55:43
174.   Matt B
172 You're right - she was a terrific writer. However, ultimately she's proffering opinions, and too many "fans" stick to hers slavishly. In your case, you didn't, which is cool. Frankly, I would think the best critics are fun to disagree with - Kael included. Hell, for years I was baffled by Andrew Sarris' dismissal of Billy Wilder, only to then read his reappraisal of him in the early 90s. What Kael did really well, which the best critics do, is inspire a deep love and appreciation for the medium they discuss, whether its Lester Bangs writing about Astral Weeks or Roger Ebert writing about The Wild Bunch or Kael on Kane.
2007-12-11 16:56:44
175.   JL25and3
169 I think the period of 1967 ("Bonnie and Clyde") through 1975 ("Nashville") was the greatest period of film in American history.


2007-12-11 16:57:07
176.   Matt B
173 Oh yeah, Lombard was the best. Just amazingly funny and ridiculously gorgeous. Check her out in Twentieth Century, holding her own against John Barrymore, or with ex-husband William Powell in My Man Godfrey. But you can't top To Be Or Not To Be. Lubitsch was a genius.
2007-12-11 16:57:57
177.   Matt B
169 , 175 I'm tempted to agree, but 1932-1941 is awfully ripe too.
2007-12-11 17:16:45
178.   Alex Belth
Yup, big P. Kael fan. Her writing reminds me of Roger Angell to the degree that I always was able to put up with running on and on and on. I do love her disdain for hype and self-importance. She'd trash Shoah and then give some random, small Michael Keaton movie a rave.

I adopted some of her tastes, though I never became a Peckinpaugh freak, and am not as bully on DePalma as she was. Didn't hate Raging Bull like she did, or hate Woody like she did, or love Paul Mazursky like she did. But yeah, she definitely formed much of my sensibilities.

I wrote her a letter when I was in high school and she had missed a stretch of time at the New Yorker. I boldly told her that she couldn't die before she got to review my first movie. I got a postcard back from her that said, "It wasn't the prospect of reviewing your first movie that laid me so low although something sure as hell did."

Later, I saw her, a tiny, woman, in the Magno Building in midtown on her way to a screening, but I didn't talk to her.

Truth be told, though, James Agee is writer/critic I may admire the most, because of his succintness.

I never cared that much for T. Raf, but I know Vineburg some and he's a good guy. Spoken to Michael Sragow a few times and he's pretty cool too. Allen Barra was friends with her too.

Oh, and "Modern Times" is a great one for a kid. "Gold Rush" would be good too. As a matter of fact, you might even consider trying to get some of the two-reelers simply because they are shorter and chocked-full of stuff. I don't like Chaplin as much as I like Buster Keaton, but I think for kids Chaplin might be more accesible.

2007-12-11 17:28:05
179.   wsporter
'32 to '41 has to be it. Everything was new and they tried to make everything; if it was great literature it hit the big screen ; Some of it was great (Wuthering Heights) and some not so much (Romeo and Juliet with Andy Devine). My favorite American comedy was made during that era "His Girl Friday" as was my favorite American mystery - "The Maltese Falcon". A zillion dramas, screwball comedies, high brow and low brow stuff, stuff with and without a conscience that makes me think or allows me to escape. The only place I get to really see that stuff any longer is TCM. I'm glad there are so many folks interested in keeping that great and peculiar art form alive that was the early American talking cinema.

Biggest screw job in Hollywood - Rod Steiger not winning best actor for the "Pawn Broker ". I really like Lee Marvin but ouch.

2007-12-11 17:31:14
180.   skybluestoday
Re: 178

Yeah, I should have at the very least spot-checked Sragow there as well. I certainly prefer him to Rafferty.

Would have loved to have met her, but the few times that I had an option to do so in the mid-1990s through these prominent critics I had no dough and I was on the other side of the country (trying to get through stupid USC grad film school), so I turned it down.


She died just before 9/11, and didn't get the obits I think she probably deserved due to that (understandable) eclipsing of news.

2007-12-11 17:38:04
181.   cult of basebaal

"A musician, if he's a messenger, is like a child who hasn't been handled too many times by man, hasn't had too many fingerprints across his brain. That's why music is so much heavier than anything you've ever felt."

2007-12-11 17:47:04
182.   skybluestoday

Well, Jimi's stuff was certainly as heavy as anything I have ever felt. I have never gotten over it. I play it constantly.

My favorite stuff of his is a bit of a dark horse -- the "Cry of Love/New Rising Sun" material he was working on before he died. That stuff is deeply soulful, intensely pyschedelic, and ultra-urban-funky to me all at once. That's why it kills me that he died in the midst of recording all of it.

(Yes, I love the earlier records and all of my concert bootlegs almost as much.)

Who knows what he would have gone on to do?("Who Knows," it strikes me now, is the title of the ultrafunky-if-meandering opening jam on the live "Band of Gypsys" release.)

I love so many types of rock and roll, but he was really sublime.

Like "2001." or "The Wild Bunch."

2007-12-11 17:50:49
183.   roadrider
Worst to win
A Beautiful Mind
English Patient
Silence of the Lambs

Best Non-Winners
Malcom X
Do the Right Thing
Shawshank Redemption
The Conversation
All the Presidents Men
The Killing Fields
Apollo 13
As Good as it Gets
LA Confidential
Lord of the Rings: Fellowship of the Ring

2007-12-11 18:01:17
184.   roadrider
I also agree with most of the picks in the original post.

Some other worthy non-winners:
The Graduate
To Kill a Mockingbird
The Hustler
Dr. Strangelove
Cool Hand Luke

2007-12-11 18:05:58
185.   3rd gen yankee fan
165 They tuned down for Stairway, I wonder why. I also saw Kashmir which really was excellent, original tuning, Plant sounded almost like his old self.

They could charge $1000 for the DVD and I'd find a way to buy it. Have you seen any Paul Rodgers clips? I wonder if anyone even bothered to bootleg him at O2... haven't seen any.

2007-12-11 18:10:11
186.   cult of basebaal
182 i'd have to say i'm more of a late stage Experience person myself, but that's because i favor the live over the studio (though i love both) and i've never been a huge fan of Miles or Cox

it's a shame that jimi and miles didn't have a serious chance to make music together, listening to most of miles' music from the period that followed jimi's death is to experience the regret writ large that the man that much of the music was conceived with in mind wasn't alive to play and validate the creation ...

2007-12-11 18:16:41
187.   JL25and3
179 Much as I don't care about awards, I am still pissed off about the one Pacino won. That was a pure makeup for all the times they should have given him one. So instead they reward him for Scent of a Freakin' Woman, in the same year that Downey did Chaplin and - the easy, hands-down runaway winner - Denzel played Malcolm X. That is one killer performance.

Not that they'd ever give Denzel an Oscar for playing Malcolm X...

2007-12-11 18:23:53
188.   cult of basebaal
187 i was thinking earlier about the worst "honorary/make up" Oscar that The Academy has ever given ... mostly thinking about The Departed, though i'll freely admit that though i don't think it was Oscar-worthy, it's not like it jobbed some masterpiece ...

"BIG ASS!!!" al pacino over denzel??? now that's a SHAFTING ...

2007-12-11 18:45:35
189.   OldYanksFan
I thought Jimi did his best work on the Axis Bold As Love album. I can't know for sure, but it seems after that, the drugs got the better of him.
2007-12-11 18:48:25
190.   skybluestoday

Cox gave Jimi some room to breathe, since he and Noel Redding had tensions. (Oftentimes Jimi would re-record Noel's bass parts on "Electric Ladyland"). He wasn't the same musician Redding was, but it made Jimi more comfortable.

When they brought Mitch Mitchell back into the mix in 1970 for the "Cry of Love" tracks and tours, I think it was Jimi's best match. Mitchell knew exactly how to work around Jimi's improvisationaly madness, and it was a bit more suitable than Buddy Miles's straight four-to-the-floor. (Which also had paid off handsomely on such tracks as "Machine Gun" and "Who Knows," I might add -- remember, this is my favorite musician.)

But Mitchell's work on such standout new material as "Freedom," "Night Bird Flying," "In From the Storm," and "Straight Ahead" just rocks my world.

2007-12-11 19:32:07
191.   weeping for brunnhilde
164 Klute! Ah, yes, part of the conflation!

I saw that in the past couple months as well!


2007-12-11 19:32:43
192.   weeping for brunnhilde
165 Ha ha haha ah!
2007-12-11 19:33:45
193.   JL25and3
In early 1967 or so, my sister saw the Monkees at Shea Stadium. Jimi Hendrix was the opening act.
2007-12-11 19:35:43
194.   weeping for brunnhilde
169 You know, I actually rented Nashville for the first time within the last couple years and I didn't get it.

I'm not crazy about Altman, though I really liked Gosford Park and the Player was all right. And that one with Giancarlo Esposito and Tim Robbins--Bob Roberts, that was him, right? I liked that.

But I just didn't quite get Nashville.

2007-12-11 19:40:31
195.   skybluestoday

No one's gonna like everything. As I said, one man's meat.......

2007-12-11 20:02:52
196.   cult of basebaal
190 mitch is one of my favorite drummers, underrated technically (early Experience Mitch was quicker than The Waco Kid) and a perfect match for Hendrix ... i love the way they play off and through each other, like watching great basketball players with a give-and-go

billy? well, one man's rock is another's anchor (to rephrase your phrase). it's really just a matter of preference though, billy added the element of a funkier, blusier sound, but subtracted the much of the jazzier sound, as well as the range of tempo-based "dynamics" that The Experience had.

2007-12-11 21:40:02
197.   vockins
196 Mitch Mitchell is my top three. I would have to spend a lot of time thinking about who else is in the top three, but he's definitely in there.


2007-12-11 22:35:37
198.   overkill94
My favorite bridesmaids (in somewhat of the order of preference):

Pulp Fiction
Taxi Driver
A Clockwork Orange
Star Wars
Judgment at Nuremburg
Five Easy Pieces
The Shawshank Redemption
Dr. Strangelove
A Streetcar Named Desire
The Elephant Man
Wizard of Oz
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
Lost in Translation
12 Angry Men
Roman Holiday
Gangs of New York
The Maltese Falcon
Sunset Boulevard

and my top 10 least deserving (of the ones I've seen):
Million Dollar Baby
A Man for All Seasons
Driving Miss Daisy
Platoon (I know I'll get crap for that one)
Terms of Endearment
Ordinary People
The French Connection (another unpopular choice)
Shakespeare in Love

2007-12-11 22:36:14
199.   overkill94
Oh, and in recent memory the biggest travesty for not even being nominated would have to be Adaptation, one of my top 5 movies of all time.
2007-12-11 23:31:32
200.   Matt B
198 You know, I love Terms of Endearment, and would not insult it, but The Right Stuff was so clearly the best film that year. However, The French Connection rules, my friend.

And no Stanley Kramer film should ever win anything.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-12-12 00:25:47
201.   overkill94
200 Is there something about him I should know? Judgment at Nuremburg was probably the best courtroom drama I've ever seen.

As for The French Connection - I'm sure it was much better in context, but most action-type movies don't hold up nearly as well these days.

2007-12-12 03:32:40
202.   JL25and3
This will probably be in Alex's post today, but I have to mention it anyway. Warning to Mattpat: this article might give you an aneurysm.

My favorite line: "O'Connell said Pavano was concerned because he was only 11 days from accruing 10 years' service time in the majors and thus a full pension." Excuse me? By next year this guy will have stolen - er, "earned" - almost $50 million, and he's worried about his pension?

For that matter: if Pavano can pitch again, he'll get those 11 days. So he's concerned about accruing ML service time even if he can't pitch anymore. As if he hasn't already stolen enough service time, either...

2007-12-12 05:44:45
203.   OldYanksFan
Guys... I need help.
I have a DB with Gamelogs, so I know how each team batted in which stadium.

I am trying to come up with a pure SLUGGING Park Factor... based on SLG numbers posted by all players.
I will use the Yanks as an example.
I need the formula for: SLG Park Factor in Yankee Stadium (YS):

I have the the average of 2 numbers:
League-Yankees(at YS) / League-Yankees(at H)
Yankees(at H) / Yankees(at R)

So: ((Yanks(YS)/Yanks(R))+(Lg(YS)/Lg(H)) / 2
Thoughts? (Common William!)

2007-12-12 06:05:43
204.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Way late into this great movie thread, thanks everyone, great comments. my 2 Yen worth:

Worst Best Picture winners - Driving Miss Daisy, Out of Africa, Titanic,

Worst Omissions - Do The Right Thing (not even nominated!), Goodfellas, The Conversation (Coppola's best), Dog Day Afternoon

for fun, my top filcks;

The Conversation - Coppola
Tokyo Story - Ozu Yasujiro
The Insect Woman - Imamura Shohei
Aguirre, Wrath of God - Werner Herzog
Viridiana - Luis Bunuel
Ran - Akira Kurosawa
Raise the Red Lantern - Zhang Yimou
The Big Lebowski - Coen Brothers
Fox & His Friends - Rainer Werner Fassbinder
The Naked Isle - Shindo Masahiro
Caddyshack - Harold Ramis
The King of Comedy - Scorsesee

2007-12-12 07:19:03
205.   Murray
I'm late to the conversation, but each year on Christmas Day I host a film festival for my friends who don't celebrate Christmas or who are tired of celebrating Christmas. Last year, our theme was "Not Even Nominated" and featured movies that the academy didn't even nominate for Best Picture. I included "Some Like It Hot," which really is brilliant for all the reasons cited here and a few others (who knew George Raft had a sense of humor? Billy Wilder did). And we also included the greatest movie ever made about making movies: "Singin' in the Rain." We also included "Rosemary's Baby" to keep it light.

(For those who care, the theme the year before was "New York in the 1970s" and included "The Taking of Pelham 123," "Saturday Night Fever," "The Prisoner of Second Avenue" and "Manhattan." And an "Odd Couple" episode or two for intermission.)

Unfortunately, I'm having work done on my house this year and may have to postpone this year's festival, but I was thinking of "actors who went to my high school" as this year's theme. I was going to show Jimmy Cagney in Billy Wilder's oft- overlooked "One, Two, Three," Paul Reiser in "Diner," Tim Robbins in either "Shawshank" or "Bull Durham," and somethink with Lucy Liu in it.

2007-12-13 23:21:58
206.   MJL
I'm way late...but how can you list dances with wolves and forrest gump among your worst winners and not include goodfellas, pulp fiction, and shawshank on your list of best non winners??!!
2008-04-14 10:28:58
207.   skybluestoday
"Shawshank" was one of those bad current movies with multiple endings and no heart.

I hated it.

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