Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
The Government Do Take a Bite, Don't She?
2007-11-16 05:57
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Man, you think Captain Wunnerful is thankful for Barry and Alex today? Saved him from making the front pages, that's for sure. What's a little problem with the tax man when compared with the Bonds fiasco or the Rodriguez affair?

Still no word on Mariano, yet. Reports have it that he's holding out for a fourth year, that he wasn't thrilled with Hank Steinbrenner's comments after the Yankee offer was made public. The Yanks did sign Jose Molina, however, to a two-year, $4 millon deal.

Finally, here's an interesting bit on Rodriguez from Alan Schwarz.

Whatta ya hear, whatta ya say? Schmooze away!

Comments (131)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-11-16 06:11:51
1.   Mattpat11
I'm glad they signed Molina.

I've decided that my favorite pro Bonds argument is "We're at war and the government is doing THIS?" Because apparently the war means the country should delve into anarchy.

2007-11-16 06:13:22
2.   Simone
Derek better pay up or he will be next for the criminal court.

I can't blame Mariano for going for that 4th year. If the Yankees can pay Alex all that money when they didn't have to, then Hank can pony up that 4th year.

2007-11-16 06:18:49
3.   Jeb
On XM last night I heard fans calling in with impassioned pleas to "leave Barry bonds alone" because what about mcgwire? Ridiculous. I'm just glad it looks like they have a positive anabolic steroid test result (based on my review of the indictment) because maybe that will shut people up about him being innocent unless he admits it (ala Pete rose) or a positive test surfaces.
2007-11-16 06:19:48
4.   Mattpat11
3 It won't shut them up. They'll insist he thought it was arthritis cream.
2007-11-16 06:24:20
5.   mehmattski
3 Or, some will inevitably turn it into a race thing.
2007-11-16 06:30:56
6.   Mattpat11
5 that drives me up the wall more than almost any other cop out, which is why I find people like Jesse Jackson to be truly evil.

In my opinion when you play the race card because you have no better excuse, you can ruin people's lives. If you slap them with the racist label, its almost impossible to to shake that.

But more importantly, and more appropriately in this case, its a boy that cried wolf situation. If you play the race card early and often on situations that have nothing to do with race, people are going to be less inclined to believe people when there is a real, legitimate act of racism.

2007-11-16 06:33:09
7.   Simone
5 No point sticking you head in the sand. It is disingenuous. This is America. Race always plays a role in how athletes of color are perceived and treated by some people in controversial situations.
2007-11-16 06:34:50
8.   Simone
6 If Jesse Jackson is evil, then George Bush must be Satan incarnate. Seriously, who in their right mind considers Jesse Jackson evil? Last time I checked he hasn't ordered anyone into a war to save an oil company. My comment at 5 applies to your comment as well.
2007-11-16 06:35:52
9.   Knuckles
I think now's the time to offer Barry a contract.
$2M base and $600K for every 10 games played.
2007-11-16 06:36:41
10.   Sarasota
2 NY State must prove that Jeter resides in NYC for at least 183 days a year. If they can't, then it's grandstanding.
2007-11-16 06:36:50
11.   Raf
6 So who makes the call that a case of racism is "real" or "legitimate?" 'Cause I'm still trying to figure that one out.

When it comes to evil, true or otherwise, Jesse Jackson barely registers on the list. Let's have a little perspective here...

2007-11-16 06:41:41
12.   RichB
8 Here here. I may not agree with everything Jesse Jackson says or does, but he is far, far away from evil. The guy was fighting for civil rights when the police were clubbing black protesters for fun. If he's a bit over-sensitive to the race issue sometimes, I think we can cut him some slack.
2007-11-16 06:42:41
13.   Murray
11 Nobody is more evil than Curt Schilling. Can we get back to talking about baseball now?
2007-11-16 06:46:23
14.   Raf
Anyway, despite the hue and cry, and the gnashing of teeth and rendering of garments, the steroids (PEDs?) issue is the "Pittsburgh Drug Trials" all over again.

And too this shall pass...

Having said that, it would be nice if someone put together an independent study of the effects of steroids/PED's in baseball.

2007-11-16 06:46:43
15.   Murray
Isn't it sad that we're excited about re-signing Molina because he's the least bad backup catcher the Yankees have had in eight years?
2007-11-16 06:47:53
16.   Raf
14 Or how 'bout "This too shall pass..."

Gotta get my morning coffee.

2007-11-16 06:48:22
17.   RichB
13 Yes! And let me just say that I would have been in full support of Lowell for 3B, but am much happier with A-Rod.

But... one of the linked articles mentions the Yanks offering Lowell 4 years to play 1B??? AHH!! RUN AWAY!! In the 3rd year, they'd be kicking themselves when his production drops to Andy Phillips levels.

2007-11-16 06:53:01
18.   Mattpat11
If Barry Bonds is being persecuted because he's a black man, why isn't Gary Sheffield under indictment?

Maybe the joke is on Gary and he isn't all the way black enough for the government to persecute?

Or maybe Barry is under indictment because the feds feel they can prove that he perjured himself and they don't give a rats ass what color he is?

2007-11-16 06:54:30
19.   RichB
14 I don't want any studies. I have to agree with Steven Goldman when he advocates for Selig to quash the whole thing by declaring amnesty for anyone who took steroids before the ban went into effect. It's dragging the league down and we need to get past talking about the past and who did what. We will never, ever be able to tell how many home runs Barry would have hit without steroids and the continued speculation and discussion just denigrates the sport.

Link to Goldman's Pinstriped Blog post:

2007-11-16 06:59:40
20.   rbj
15 There really aren't any good BUCs. If you're good for a couple of years in a row, then someone trades for you and makes you a starter.
2007-11-16 07:00:27
21.   Raf
19 I'd agree with you and Goldman, but if people insist on bringing it up, may as well have a study and put the issue to bed.
2007-11-16 07:02:50
22.   RichB
Or, here's a topic... now that the Yanks don't have to trade for a 3B, they have more chips to make a run at Johan Santana. This thought is already well covered. But, here's the catch... if the Yanks snag Santana and don't have to give up Hughes or Chamberlain, will that tempt Pettitte back into the fold? Will he be able to taste another ring once he sees ARod back at the hot corner, Jorgie and (hopefully) Mo re-signed, and potentially the best rotation in baseball with Santana, Wang, Pettite, Hughes and Moose? (or sub Chamberlain for Moose if you think that he'd still be more valuable in the rotation in that situation)
2007-11-16 07:04:49
23.   JL25and3
15 Actually, Flaherty was surprisingly not terrible for a couple of years - put up OPS+ better than Girardi ever did in his career.

I like Molina, but his hitting as a Yankee last year was a total fluke. Expect his bat to be a black hole this year.

2007-11-16 07:05:33
24.   RichB
21 I understand the desire, but I don't think it actually would put it to bed. It would just raise more questions we can't answer. I'd rather see the money, attention and effort poured into a more effective testing program that included HGH and whatever comes next. If there are no more steroids in baseball, that will put the issue to bed.
2007-11-16 07:06:35
25.   Mattpat11
23 I think he was pretty good on the BUC scale the first two years
2007-11-16 07:09:04
26.   ms october
17 It's not the 3rd year that concerns me - it's next year. In addition to his likely decline in numbers it's those numbers at first, the draft pick surrendered to the Sox and so on.

19 Agree largely. There is absolutely no way to know what steroids led to - in the sense of how many extra homeruns, strikeouts, innings played etc. How could this possibly be studied ethically much less soundly? There will always be a caveat when looking at most of the numbers assembled during this era.

2007-11-16 07:09:51
27.   mehmattski
21 Raf, comments get hidden pretty quickly sometimes, so I don't know if you got a chance to see my research from yesterday on the effect of throwing a ton of innings under the age of 24:

For every Bert Blyleven, there is a Don Drysdale. For every Tom Seaver, a Larry Dierker...

2007-11-16 07:10:38
28.   RichB
23 Yeah, probably. 20 The other problem is that it's hard to develop any consistency when you see live pitching once a week. If you're not consistently decent, you get benched for the next journeyman BUC who's sitting home waiting for a call. I'm not saying the team should give the BUCs more ABs, but the system, in general, seems set up to fail.
2007-11-16 07:11:36
29.   dianagramr
Not to (re)open the can of worms, but no one on this board should be casting aspersions at Barry when the Yanks have had two admitted PED users on their team (and one still on their team).

I'm certainly not a fan of Barry, but the Giambino doesn't make me smile either, even if he is "clean" now.

2007-11-16 07:13:54
30.   Simone
12 I consider Jesse Jackson a blow hard and an opportunist. He annoys the hell out of me most of the times, but no one who has any comprehension of the Civil Rights movement could ever consider him evil. He stood when those cops were setting clubs, guns and dogs on protesters and the Klan and their supporters were bombing, murdering and lynching black people left and right.

18 Stop ranting and read what I said. There will always be people in this country who see and treat people through the lens of race and stereotyping. I'm not wrong.

19 I completely agree with Goldman.

2007-11-16 07:17:23
31.   Simone
10 Maybe the tax people have been following Derek around for the last year or so.
2007-11-16 07:20:09
32.   Schteeve
In the midnight hour, they cried Mo! Mo! Mo!

Seriously, I'm starting to think that Mo is not the guy I used to think he was.

2007-11-16 07:23:13
33.   ny2ca2dc
15 et al re: Molina, what I'm hoping is that this large-ish contract for a BUC means the FO is going to spend & focus on the bench. Obviously, the starters are way more important, but depth is critical always and even more so when the team is as old as it is. I don't see anything wrong with having a $10-$20 mil bench, assuming they're all on short contracts.

Was it Goldman or Pinto or someone else who was making that point...

2007-11-16 07:24:09
34.   ny2ca2dc
31 So that's who all those stunning women-in-tow were.
2007-11-16 07:25:48
35.   Mattpat11
18 I still fail to see what that has to do with Barry Bonds current situation.

Yes, there will always be people who try to shoehorn any issue into a race issue. Doesn't make it any less wrong in this case.

2007-11-16 07:26:39
36.   RichB
32 Yeah, this definitely sours my impression of him personally. I can understand wanting a fourth year, but some reports are saying he wants more money. The current offer is shockingly high. If he wipes his nose with it, I can only assume he doesn't really want to be a Yankee anymore.

That being said, Hank's comments and strategy seem particularly pointed to force that impression. The offer is so high that it would be hard for Mo to debate about it at all without giving the impression that he's being greedy. And his comments anticipated any qualms Mo might have and pre-cast it as being greedy.

2007-11-16 07:27:01
37.   JL25and3
30 I can't ever dissociate him from this: I'm not sure which of those hands is his, but one of them is.
2007-11-16 07:29:47
38.   Knuckles
29 Bonds was not indicted for steroid use, he was indicted for perjury and obstruction of justice- slightly more serious matters.
2007-11-16 07:30:41
39.   Raf
24 ,26 I'm working with the assumption that "PED's" have been around since at least the '60s. I'm not asking to see how many more HR's would've been hit or how many more innings would've been pitched, etc. I am just curious to see if they really have any effect in the game. Power is nice, but baseball has and always will be a skill/tecnhique sport. Maybe they have an effect, maybe they don't. Quite a few things in baseball "make sense" (corked bats or protection in the order, to name but two baseball myths), but are disproven when put to the test.

27 Yes, I saw that. Thanks.

30 I read "I Am - Somebody" numerous times as a young'un. While I may not agree with everything he says, I agree that he is far from evil.

2007-11-16 07:33:08
40.   JL25and3
27 Absolutely right. I looked at it in a slightly different (and entirely arbitrary) way: take pitchers who threw 200+ innings at age 21, and see how many games they won after age 30.

Four of them had long careers: Sutton, Blyleven, Tanana and Simmons. And the last three all had to come back from arm injuries.

As you point out, Drysdale was essentially done at 30; so was Catfish. 14 out of 33 (since 1946) won 0 games after that age.

2007-11-16 07:37:04
41.   mehmattski
40 I found interesting, after YFiM asked about seasons above ERA+ of 120, that five of the pitchers who pitched 250+ innings before the age of 24 never had that kind of season, not even the one where they threw 250 innings. It probably points to a different baseball culture where innings were king and bullpens were small and in a mop-up role. Then again, folks looking for evidence that lots of innings isn't bad could point at that and say that those pitchers were out of baseball because they were mediocre...
2007-11-16 07:41:19
42.   dianagramr
Steroids do not help you hit more HRs per se. You still have to be able to see the ball and hit it squarely. Steroids help you recover quicker from workouts, allowing you to build muscle mass faster.

One of the downsides is that you can end up putting too much muscle (strain) on bones and tendons/ligaments, and then be subject to tears / ruptures.

2007-11-16 07:42:06
43.   dianagramr

was in response to 39 and other related posts.

2007-11-16 07:53:13
44.   JL25and3
41 Yeah, I was aware of having no sort of control. I suspect that I'd find that a lot of 21-year-old pitchers are done by age 30, regardless of IP. But, at the very least, throwing lots of innings doesn't seem to help.
2007-11-16 07:53:24
45.   mehmattski
Hey, remember when everyone laughingly believed it was the ball that was juiced, and happily bought McGwire/Sosa/Bonds merch?

As I've said before, as a fan who came of age in an era of steroids, I plan on being just as cumudgeonly towards young fans of the 2050s as older fans are today about the 1950s... It's when I grew up, I can't help but romanticize it.

2007-11-16 07:54:16
46.   Simone
36 I don't think that there is anything wrong with an athlete wanting more money. I have no problem with Mo wanting the 4th year or Alex wanting his big contract. IMO, the market sets the athlete's price. Mo may very well get offered that 4th year from another team and then he will have to make a tough decision.
2007-11-16 07:58:19
47.   standuptriple
46 If Mo gets a 4th year from another team that tops the 3yr Yanks offer then he should take it. I do not want him to get that 4th year from NY. I really think the 3rd(and the amt per year) is a gift already.
2007-11-16 07:58:52
48.   Raf
41 In this day and age, those mediocre pitchers would be recycled as relievers. It makes me wonder what the next "big thing" will be WRT pitchers. Who knows, maybe we'll see something where pitchers are shuttled between starting and relieving, similar to the way Tom Gordon was used early in his career.
2007-11-16 08:00:30
49.   mehmattski
46 Which team would that be? All the big market teams (Red Sox, Mets, Tigers, Dodgers, Angels, Phillies) have a solid, younger closer (well, maybe not the Tigers, but still). The Cubs... maybe, but they shelled out the big bucks last year and it's unclear how much of a player they are on the market this year.

This is a case of the player setting the market, not the market setting the price. If Mo demands such a monstrous deal, the Yankees should call his bluff. Nobody's going to offer the Yankees even 75% of what they've already offered. It is strange to me that A-Rod is villified for wanting a raise after the best season of his career, but Mo wanting a gigantic raise after his worst is met by some fans with totally different feelings.

2007-11-16 08:01:54
50.   RichB
42 One of the other downsides is that steroid use has been proven to be related to tumor growth (see Giambi, Jason - 2004).
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-11-16 08:03:57
51.   mehmattski
48 True, and some of them were... look at the number of young pitchers who had their last good (ERA+ of 120) season well before the end of their careers.

The next big thing should be a revolution of bullpens into something resembling logical use of leverage. The baseball world is a slave to the saves statistic, and the negotiations of Mariano Rivera are Exhibit A. Pitching one inning three times a week does not have the same value as catching nine innings, five times a week. Sorry Mo, you're not worth position player money.

2007-11-16 08:15:38
52.   RichB
46 Oh, I don't have any problem with an athlete getting all the money they can either. But, the market set the price for top-level closers at less than $11M (Wagner, et. al.) and the Yanks are offering Mo $15M, implying that they value him 37% more than anyone else. ARod won't be making 37% above every other position player next year and certainly not when he's 38-40. At age 38-40, that's a very generous valuation for anyone and I really don't think the rest of the market will even come up to that level. They may offer more years for less money per year, and if that's more important to Mo, then so be it. Personally, I think the Yanks should explore that option, maybe offering the same deal they gave Posada, $13M for 4.
2007-11-16 08:25:19
53.   JL25and3
48 It used to be very common. Teams would have a 4-man rotation (which I believe teams should go back to). But the schedule also had plenty of doubleheaders, so there'd be at least one "swing man" - a guy who'd pitch in long relief but also start 15-20 times.
2007-11-16 08:30:30
54.   bp1
It is not easy to deal with superstars who are negotiating the end of their careers. One thing that is different w/ Mo this year is that the Yankees have a potential Plan B w/ Joba. Clearly the Yankees would rather see him as a starter, but at least they have him as a potential replacement should Mo bolt. That has never been the case before, really.

Not everyone walks away from the game like Mattingly, head held high and everyone on speaking terms. Look at Bernie. Look at Torre. I don't know how this will come off w/ Mo, but this is a pridefull man who feels he has four good years left.

Dunno what to do. God how I would hate to see a 42-year-old Mo getting knocked around and pitching the 6th in Proctor-esque fashion. That would just kill me.

Mo - take the three years and walk away with your head held high. PLEASE!

2007-11-16 08:32:12
55.   standuptriple
52 I'd like to see them play a little more hardball with Mo if he's gonna act like this. Every 24 hours our offer drops $100K per year. You want to wait 10 days, it'll cost you a cool $1M. A month, $3M (and he'd still be the highest paid CL in the game). I bet he'd change his tune.
2007-11-16 08:36:22
56.   YankeeInMichigan
Light day at the office, so here's my take on the burning issues:

Jackson: He sought out photo ops with terrorists, inciting anti-semitism in the African American community. That's evil.

Lowell: If we took him, I'd keep him at 3rd, move A-Rod to shortstop and send Jeter to 1st. 4 years would still scare me.

Mo: Why not offer an team option for the 4th year, vesting on 65 innings in year #3?

Bonds: Perjury indictment puts the final nail into the coffin of his reputation, and rightfully so. But should perjury keep him out of the Hall of Fame?

2007-11-16 08:37:24
57.   pwicked
52 Since Mo can't play 1st base after 3 yrs, or any other position, the Yanks should lower the offer to 13M/year for 3 yrs with a next -to-impossible-to-achieve incentive clause that triggers the fourth year. Perhaps he'll learn another pitch...
2007-11-16 08:41:25
58.   Andre
55 - that policy helps no one. If the Yanks have already decided that their offer is the best they're willing to make then they lose nothing by waiting. Mo tests the market. If he gets better offers, then the Yanks won't feel bad because they weren't willing to go higher anyway. If he gets no offers then the Yanks look good. If he decides to take a lower offer somewhere else then the Yanks look good.

It's fine to seek more money no matter who you are or what you do, but at Mo's age, and given his career, you would think he would balance the money issue with the legacy issue, the comfort issue, etc. Maybe he doesn't care but it seems shortsighted to me. Unless he goes to the Red Sox, he's unlikely to be able to match the intensity of playing for the Yanks.

2007-11-16 08:44:45
59.   mehmattski
57 Mo may not hit like a first baseman, but folks have hinted that Mo would make a fine centerfielder. Certainly better than GOB or Tony Womack.
2007-11-16 08:49:20
60.   Raf
55 That's unnecessary. The offer's on the table, Mo could either take it or leave it.

56 Don't think it'll keep him out of the Hall, unless baseball decides to put him on the ineligible list.

2007-11-16 08:51:21
61.   Raf
59 If Guidry could do it, why not Mo? :)
2007-11-16 08:53:30
62.   williamnyy23
It looks like Molina did very nicely for himself. $2mn for a BUC seems extravagant, but considering the numbers being tossed around for Torrealba, the contract looks more than fair. I liked's good to see the Yankees enter the season with a BUC who should post a positive OPS+.
2007-11-16 08:53:30
63.   williamnyy23
It looks like Molina did very nicely for himself. $2mn for a BUC seems extravagant, but considering the numbers being tossed around for Torrealba, the contract looks more than fair. I liked's good to see the Yankees enter the season with a BUC who should post a positive OPS+.
2007-11-16 08:58:08
64.   YankeeInMichigan
59 That was quite a few years ago. I never saw any player move to center field at age 40.
2007-11-16 09:22:54
65.   RIYank
From Pete Abraham:

Yankees manager Joe Girardi is down in the Dominican Republic this week. He had dinner with Yankees senior Latin staff and visited the coaches on Tuesday. This morning (Wednesday) at the Yankees Latin Beisbol Academy, he gave a speech to the Latin coaches and staff followed by an interactive talk with 55 Latin players and eight players from the '06 and '07 draft. He then watched a Dominican Instructional League game against Toronto and viewed tryouts.

2007-11-16 09:26:21
66.   williamnyy23
65 More relevant from that post was:

So in a span of two weeks, Girardi was at the GM Meetings and then spent time with the staff and players in the Dominican. This is why Brian Cashman wanted Girardi, so he could have a manager heavily involved in development.

Joe Torre managed the 25 guys in the majors. Girardi is clearly going to have input in all facets of baseball operations. It's an interesting dynamic.

2007-11-16 09:34:44
67.   OldYanksFan
9 FINALLY someone thinking smart baseball!

11 There is often some reality in most cases involving black people. This country is usually happier to throw a black man in jail then a white man. I have to ask, why wasn't bigMac called before the grand jury? He was the first big name. He broke Maris's record.

12 Yes, he might e over-sensitive to Black issues. Or maybe While folk are under-sensitive to Black issues.

19 Amnesty is a great ideas. But we should have studies. At least we would have some trut instead of wild speculation. PEDs didn't make Barry strong. Working out did. PEDs make working out more productive, but plenty of people get strong without them.

20 Isn't 2m/yr a bit high for a BUC?

29 Not be mention dozens of others we know about and probably hundreds we don't. It is so much easier to hate one guy then have to try and understand 100.

32 I agree. 3/$45 is 50% more then he's worth. Who would be surprised if Mo has nothing by 2010. And he wants $12m+ for 2011?
Should Mo retiring as a Yankee be more important to him then it was to ARod?

35 Why didn't they go after bigMac? Or at least Canseco? You don't think MLB had anything to do with it do you? Just because Barry has always been chasing Hank?

38 Yes... and Clinton was almost impeach for GETTING A BLOW JOB! Yes.. he (stupidly) lied about it, just as Barry may have. But How many other (Presidents and) ballplayers have been asked this type of questions under oath? Between tax returns, drug use, speeding and 'impure thoughts', which one of us would be comfortable going on the stand?
And what about the 'leaks'. The testimony is GUARANTEED to be secret. Shouldn't there be punishment for those that corrupt the System? Shouldn't the System have a higher integrity then any one individual?

46 At $15m, Mo is getting paid about $200k- per inning, in about every other game. Conversely, thats about what ARod NOW gets paid per game. So the equation is: 2 games ARod = 1 Game/inning Mo. I think 2 games w/ARod wins more then 1 inning of Mo. Mo is getting paid VERY VERY well at $15m.

47 Agreed. I don't want to lose him, but just how much do the Yankees let players blackmail them? It should be more important to Mo to have his whole career as a Yankee then it is to the corporation.

49 Agreed. ARod good. Mo bad.

51 I agree. I asked this before. Could someone like Joba pitch 4-5 innings, in 2 appearances every 5 games? This would be like 130+ innings, or 4-5 innings for every 'start'. If he knew he was going 2 (or 3) innings, maybe he goes a little easier on himself for the first 3 batters. Considering warmups and 'game tension', could 3-1 inning appearances be just as stressful as 2-2 inning appearances?

54 "Dunno what to do. God how I would hate to see a 42-year-old Mo getting knocked around and pitching the 6th in Proctor-esque fashion. That would just kill me." And getting paid $15m to boot. It's nuts! What's wrong with Mo. Will he end up 'crawling' back to the Yankees for 3/$40?

2007-11-16 09:38:55
68.   tommyl
66 Sure beats the old Joe forgetting the name of the most recent callup. That always angered me. Shouldn't a ML manager know at least a few of the guys in the minors?
2007-11-16 09:55:06
69.   YankeeInMichigan
Lots has been written about aging patterns of catchers. What about aging patterns of relievers? Here's a bit of ad-hoc research:

- Rollie Fingers pitched to age 38 and was last effective at age 37.
- Goose Gossage pitched to age 42 and was effective to the end. However, he last topped 50 innings at age 37 and last topped 60 innings at age 34.
- Hoyt Wilhelm pitched to age 49 and threw 82 reasonably effective innings at age 47. Knuckleballers don't count.
- Trevor Hoffman was dominant at age 38 and still effective at age 39 (though he blew the one-game playoff). But he hasn't thrown more than 63 innings since age 32.
- John Franco pitched until age 44 and was effective until age 42. He last topped 60 innings at age 37.
- Jesse Orosco pitched until age 46 and was borderline-effective until 45. He last topped 50 innings at 41 and last topped 60 innings at 33.

So unless Mo develops a knuckleball, the chances of him throwing 70 dominant innings at age 41 are quite slim indeed.

2007-11-16 09:57:45
70.   JL25and3
67 One difference between Bonds and Clinton: Barry had immunity. All he had to do was tell the truth.
2007-11-16 09:59:51
71.   standuptriple
58 He's not going to get a better offer. He wants the Yankees to bid against themselves. If that's the way he wants it, then it should go both ways. Just because he's meant a lot to the team doesn't mean his value is going to remain that high. They are taking a huge risk with, IMO, the 3rd year. You want a negotiation Mo? Let's "negotiate".
2007-11-16 10:04:51
72.   YankeeInMichigan
69 Sorry, I left out a couple of "hall of famers":
- Bruce Sutter pitched 122 lights-out innings at age 31. He was never again effective (though he contributed 88 innings the next year), and he retired at age 35.
- Dennis Eckersly pitched 80 dominant innings at age 37. He continued to pitch for six more years, but was never again effective. He threw 67 innings at age 38, and never again topped 60.
2007-11-16 10:13:12
73.   Shaun P
Bonds. All I'll say is, take a look at the US Attorney who handed down the indictment. And how long he's been on the job. I won't say anything else, because I'm not getting into a political discussion here.

65 66 I am very pleased to read that kind of news.

2007-11-16 10:23:34
74.   JL25and3
71 That strikes me as a pointless, vindictive negotiating tack to take. Why would they want to piss people off?

Personally, I don't see what the harm is in letting Mo look around. We all agree he's not getting a better offer, so what's the problem? But if you really want to exert more pressure, here's a better way: schedule a meeting with Francisco Cordero's agent.

Joba should not be considered as plan B.

2007-11-16 10:24:40
75.   weeping for brunnhilde
6 With all due respect, Mattpat, I'd urge you to be more considerate in your rhetoric. To refer to "the race card" is to dismiss the very real issue of race. The way race works in our society is extremely sophisticated and insidious, and I'd suggest that if you're going to talk about it, you should do so with a bit more deliberation.

I wouldn't begin to pontificate on the precise role of race in the Barry Bonds case, both in this particular legal matter and more generally with regard to his public image.

That said, I'd caution you against speaking about racism unless you know what you're talking about. A personal opinion is fine, but there are people who dedicate their lives to actually studying the issue because it's exceedingly complex.

Just because some people disingenuously exploit "the race card," as you call it, doesn't mean that asking whether or not race is a factor in this or that investigation is an illegitimate question.

This is America, you know.

2007-11-16 10:30:16
76.   OldYanksFan
70 Yes... and have it leaked to the newspapers. Then the circus really begins. I still want to know why so few are being singled out? Why there have been hundreds of users, but ONE faces jail because he lied. Shouldn't justice have some level of fairness. If they do this to Bonds... and spend FOUR YEARS chasing him, I want every suspected user to testify. I want 100 people to experience of 'Justice' system.
2007-11-16 10:31:33
77.   alterity
75 Well said sir, well said.
2007-11-16 10:32:47
78.   weeping for brunnhilde
35 Ok, last comment from me, because I'm not looking to engage in a protracted debate about race and racism, but mattpat, I'd urge you to consider that race is always already present in social interactions, it does not need to be "shoehorned" in.

The line between invention of "racism" out of whole cloth and discovery of a latent pattern is really hard to discern. I'm not saying you're right or wrong here, what I'm saying is that your remarks reveal a profound lack of sophistication on the topic and you might consider that.

Not meant in a patronizing or scolding way at all, mattpat, just a sincere observation about your apparent perspective on the subject. No disrespect is intended.

2007-11-16 10:40:45
79.   OldYanksFan
I Love Mo. I'm gratful to Mo. I want him back.
That said, based on the Marketplace and his age, he is worth 2/$20. Because he is MO RIVERA, he is worth 2/$24. Because he is a Yankee, to us, we would go 3/$36, which is over his real value. To show his real love, the Yankees went 3/$40 (willing to piss away $10m or more). Because he wanted more, and we do need a close, and out of respectm we went 3/$45. And he wants more? Read 69 . It verifies what we all know. That we are ONLY doing this deal because it's Mo.

But how far to we take that? And shouldn't Mo, with 3/$45 be laughing all the way to the bank? $15m for a 39 year closer... hahahah hahahah hahaha. I think a big part of Yankee money is keeping the 'family' together. But Jeez... can't the players be a TINY TINY bit reasonable?

Honestly, I'm ready to let Mo go. I think this behavior makes ARod look like a saint. Part of his rep, and his admission to the HOF comes bacause he was a Yankee, and played on great Yankee teams. We he still be 'Mo' if he played in Texas?

I was disappojnted in ARod, but this i can't believe.

I say NO NO NO to more years or more money.

2007-11-16 10:41:42
80.   OldYanksFan
79 Shit... hit Submit instead of Edit Again. Please excuse the horrid spelling and grammar.
2007-11-16 10:45:14
81.   Shaun P
76 It all stemmed from the BALCO investigation, though, so the government wasn't going to go after "every suspected user". Nor (IMHO) should they. Justice can be a cruel mistress, and hard to define. Just ask the USFL - I wonder if someone kept the money they won from the NFL. Framed it, perhaps.

But you hit upon something that, to me, is still unresolved - the profiting of various entities from the leaked grand jury testimony. That they caught the leak and have prosecuted him is wonderful. That Game of Shadows brings in money (and fame) still is horrible.

2007-11-16 10:48:16
82.   weeping for brunnhilde
79 Point well taken, OYF, but do you really mean you're ready to let him go? Really really?
2007-11-16 10:50:46
83.   standuptriple
74 They apparently had no problem pissing Joe off or A-Rod. Why does Mo feel he's above those guys? I totally agree, a meeting with F-Cordero would perhaps put things into perspective for our semi-disenfranchised closer.
79 I'll agree even with the spellng errors.
2007-11-16 11:03:34
84.   Bama Yankee
"I wonder if someone kept the money they won from the NFL. Framed it, perhaps."

Good one (that wouldn't take a very large frame).

IIRC, they actually got a check for $3.76 (the 76 cents was for interest)...

2007-11-16 11:21:24
85.   williamnyy23
75 78 I agree with everything you said and Matt doesn't need a defense attorney, but he did state:

"In my opinion when you play the race card because you have no better excuse, you can ruin people's lives."

From that statement, I didn't infer that Matt was dismissing the role that race plays in our society, but instead was pointing out how playing the "race card" (which itself implies unjust application) does more harm than good. I don't think a lecture on the matter is needed, nor do I think it is appropriate for you to call his opinion unsophisticated or uninformed.

2007-11-16 11:21:45
86.   Shaun P
84 The first time I read about that case in law school, I couldn't stop laughing. It still makes me smile today. Treble damages - ha!

I didn't know about the interest, but that makes it even funnier.

2007-11-16 11:27:33
87.   SF Yanks
I'd pay Mo $100 mill just to keep Joba out of the pen. Well, not that much, but you get my point.
2007-11-16 11:33:24
88.   Raf
84 According to the USFL wiki entry; "The USFL finally received a check for $3.76 in damages in 1990, the additional 76¢ representing interest earned while litigation had continued."

86 It was an interesting case to say the least.

2007-11-16 11:36:48
89.   weeping for brunnhilde
85 Point taken. Matt, if I've misunderstood you, I apologize.

I do believe, however, that the term "the race card" is itself too explosive and rhetorically charged ("hot-button," if you like) to be constructive.

Imo, using the term is itself an unsophisticated way of talking about a sophisticated problem.

I didn't mean to call Matt unsophisticated, only to say that his comments, as read on the screen, seemed so.

An issue as delicate as race deserves commensurately delicate terminology, is my basic point.

If it is to be discussed, I think something approaching sociological precision is more suitable than tabloid rhetoric, which I think it's fair to say "the race card" undoubtedly is.

2007-11-16 11:39:45
90.   weeping for brunnhilde
85 But again, just to be clear, I really do take your point and apologize to Matt for the lecture if it was inappropriate, unproductive or otherwise obtuse.
2007-11-16 11:44:57
91.   weeping for brunnhilde
85 Then again, looking back, he did call Jesse Jackson "evil."

That's a bit unsophisticated, you have to admit, especially in this context.

It just all came off as inappropriately off-the-cuff to me.

But I could be misreading him.

2007-11-16 12:03:36
92.   weeping for brunnhilde
Ok, apologies in advance for continuing on about this, but I think it's important.

Matt wrote: "But more importantly, and more appropriately in this case, its a boy that cried wolf situation. If you play the race card early and often on situations that have nothing to do with race, people are going to be less inclined to believe people when there is a real, legitimate act of racism."

Matt is begging the question here. "in situations that have nothing to do with race..."

That's the issue at hand, namely, what has to do with race, what doesn't, and how you go about ascertaining the difference.

That's the whole magilla right there. When I said Matt's perspective was unsophisticated, that's largely what I meant. He takes as clear-cut fact that which is under contention, namely, whether and to what degree race plays a role.

His use of the phrase "real, legitimate act of racism" is also far from transparent.

Whether "racism" is best understood as an "act" or rather as an implicit structure that governs incidental actions is a serious question.

Is racism structural or is it transactional?

Can a particular social outcome be governed by racism even if none of the parties involved are dyed-in-the wool klansmen?

There's a wealth of issues implicit to Matt's comments and they bear serious consideration.

The starting point, though, would be to consider our use of terminology. Do we all mean the same thing by "racism?"

Is there a common-sense definition as well as numerous scholarly definitions?

Matt's comments don't suggest any awareness of these sorts of issues, which is what I meant by "unsophisticated."

I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense, only a descriptive one.

2007-11-16 12:08:51
93.   Raf
92 Which goes back to the question I posed in 11 ; who gets to say that the claim of racism, or playing the race card is or isn't valid?

Anyway, I find myself in this discussion more often than not, and I'd rather not continue it here. Unless provoked, I have nothing more to say on the subject.

2007-11-16 12:10:33
94.   RIYank
I'd just like Weeping to clarify his position.
2007-11-16 12:15:56
95.   weeping for brunnhilde
94 Do I sense sarcasm, RI? :)
2007-11-16 12:18:18
96.   Simone
weeping for brunnhilde, I have appreciated your comments.
2007-11-16 12:21:33
97.   weeping for brunnhilde
Thank you, Simone.
2007-11-16 12:25:37
98.   RIYank
Welcome, everyone, to the Final Public Oral Examination of Weeping F. Brunnhilde. Mr. Brunnhilde will be examined on his dissertation, "Reggie Jackson, Jesse Jackson, and Anglo-Saxon: a study of racial rhetoric in the medieval precursors of baseball."

Weeping, will you please summarize and frame the main issues? (In fewer than 40,000 words, please.)

2007-11-16 12:30:22
99.   weeping for brunnhilde
98 ha ha hah ah ah aah !!


ha ha hah ah aha !

"Reggie Jackson, Jesse Jackson, and Anglo-Saxon: a study of racial rhetoric in the medieval precursors of baseball!"

ha ha hah aah ah ah !!!

Uproariously, diabolically, brilliantly funny!!

ha hah ah aha h ah aah ah !!!!


2007-11-16 12:44:35
100.   RIYank
Speaking of prosody, check out the sonnet at Humbug Journal!
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-11-16 12:47:27
101.   weeping for brunnhilde
100 Nice.
2007-11-16 12:58:41
102.   ms october
96 me too weeping - especially on the phrase "playing the race card"
2007-11-16 13:20:49
103.   weeping for brunnhilde
102 Cheers, ms october. I do want to make crystal clear, however, that none of this in my mind is about Matt nor do I bear him any ill will. He just happened to hit a nerve about a topic of deep consequence. That he apparently did so unwittingly is what prompted me to respond.
2007-11-16 13:22:03
104.   RIYank
Here's something interesting. According to the Probabilistic Model of Range, the Yankees had one of the very best fielding teams last year. More surprisingly, their outfield was particularly strong. And more surprising yet, it was strong in spite of, and not because of, Melky Cabrera. Melkman was a subpar CF, while our regular corner outfielders were better than average at their positions. (Of course, Melky gets compared to some very, very good fielders, and Hideki gets compared to a group that includes Manny Ramirez.)

Maybe there's something wrong with the PMR?

2007-11-16 13:26:21
105.   ms october
103 Oh - I get you completely and did not mean anything against anyone either in my concern against that phrase. Race and issues of racism are difficult to discuss in person and online can be even more so.

On Barry Bonds - but a different note - I don't know why but I find the notion that he is hunting with Ryan Klesko somewhat strange - that's not a duo that I would have pictured hunting together (and I am not implying anything about race)

2007-11-16 13:27:52
106.   OldYanksFan
104 Either that, or there is something wrong with our eyes.
2007-11-16 13:31:43
107.   OldYanksFan
Mariano Rivera is balking on a three-year, $45 million offer from the New York Yankees, and the sides have reached an impasse in talks that have revived the closer's call to seriously pursue other offers, Newsday reported Thursday.

Rivera is holding out for a fourth year guaranteed, but the Yankees aren't interested in allowing an extra year to be worked into the contract given the reliever's age, the newspaper reported.

No mo Mo?

2007-11-16 13:32:13
108.   Just fair
Comic relief anyone? Last week on the Simpsons (yes, i am a simpsons junkie), , Marge was upset that Homer could not remember the color of her eyes. Homer said something like, "Come on Marge, I don't judge people on the color of their eyes, I judge them on the color of the their skin."
2007-11-16 13:33:59
109.   OldYanksFan
According to numerous media reports, the Yankees are talking with Lowell, Boston's third baseman the last two seasons, about moving from third to first. A television station in Boston, WBZ-TV, said a four-year deal from the Yankees worth $50 million-
$55 million is on the table.

Has Cashman lost his mind!!!!!!!

2007-11-16 13:34:49
110.   ms october
106 could be - though i just looked it up and derek was 2nd to last - with christian guzman taking the honors - but so many of these type of formulas depend on what you value and what is giving higher weight - i only looked quickly - does he give his formula riyank?
2007-11-16 13:44:03
111.   OldYanksFan
From a Lohud commenter:
The $45 million offer drew criticism from Major League Baseball executives in charge of monitoring salaries and payrolls, as sources said that Yankee executives Hal Steinbrenner and Randy Levine were admonished during yesterday's owners' meetings in Florida for drastically upping the market for relievers.
2007-11-16 13:44:24
112.   weeping for brunnhilde
105 Racist!


2007-11-16 13:47:24
113.   Shaun P
109 You believe a Boston news station? Pfft.

It makes no sense. No way the Yanks give up that first round pick, and especially not to the Red Sox.

2007-11-16 13:49:12
114.   Raf
109 That doesn't make sense with Giambi, Betemit, Duncan, Phillips and to an extent Damon in the 1b mix.

That could be an unsubstantiated rumor, or it could be that one of the Steinbrenner spawn is playing a bigger role than expected.

2007-11-16 13:52:42
115.   ms october
112 Hahaha :)

111 they probably got that from feinsand at the daily news

113 I was going to say ESPNEWS is reporting it too - but it's the same thing
it made only a little sense to pursue him for 3b - it makes none to pursue him for 1b so i too find it "pfft"

2007-11-16 13:53:24
116.   Shaun P
114 "or it could be that one of the Steinbrenner spawn is playing a bigger role than expected"

Which is exactly why it doesn't make any sense. So far, everything out of Hank's mouth has been in support of playing the kids etc. (Has Hal spoken?) They (Hank and Hal) seem to understand how important those draft picks (and a strong farm system) are. They also seem to be fully following Cashman's plan.

To sign Lowell would be a huge departure from all that.

2007-11-16 14:07:52
117.   weeping for brunnhilde
108 Heh heh heh heh.
2007-11-16 14:19:22
118.   RIYank
110 Ms. O, he does explain how the PMR works. It's complicated in detail. But the basic idea is easy.

David looks at every single batted ball, and for each he records (a) the vector (direction), (b) speed, and (c) type (line drive, fly, grounder). For each vector of each type, he finds the percentage turned into outs. Then for each team (or fielder) he figures out what percentage of the balls hit in their direction should have been converted to outs, and grades them by the ratio of the outs they made to the outs they should have made.

2007-11-16 14:20:59
119.   weeping for brunnhilde
Do we have a consensus on Lowell's value? Provided a reasonable contract, do we want him?

He's a pretty solid ballplayer, isn't he? At first blush, I wouldn't mind having him as our 1B.

2007-11-16 14:25:58
120.   weeping for brunnhilde
104 What are Melky's defensive flaws? As far as I can tell, his only real area of concern is with tough balls over directly over his head and to either side of him. In other words, the toughest plays a centerfielder is called upon to make. And while he is a bit shaky on some of those, normally he runs everything down.

I can't believe Matsui can rate higher, no matter the competition. Is that to say there are worse leftfielders than Hideki? Even Manny's not really that bad when you factor out his Mannyisms. Lord knows he seems to rob his fair share of hits against us.

2007-11-16 14:26:59
121.   weeping for brunnhilde
118 Damn, that sounds pretty thorough.
2007-11-16 14:32:17
122.   ms october
118 Okay - thanks - certain aspects of it appeals to me - it's the "should have been converted to outs" part that makes all of this so tricky

119 I don't know about a consensus - but I'm not so sure about him a 1b - seems we could use 1b to get abs for a lot of people as Raf 114 mentioned and there is no need to give Boston a draft pick and pay even more money and years to an aging veteran

2007-11-16 14:49:09
123.   OldYanksFan
Jon Heyman on M&MD: It's worth a listen. Some good stuff. FWIW, his take on ARod is exactly what I have been posting over the last 2 weeks.
2007-11-16 14:55:55
124.   OldYanksFan
Lowell will be both VERY expensive and wants 4 years! He has never played 1st base. As a 3rd baseman, he's above average... but not as a 1st baseman. We have ARod back and a glut at DH. Giambi was to play first (maybe half the season?).

We have overpaid on ARod and Po, and maybe on Mo. It makes no sense to overspend on Lowell who will not add that much (if anything) to the team. Play Lowell to sit Giambi? To sit Mats or JD? It's nuts.

If the Red Sox don't want him WITH 1/2 THEIR GAMES AT FENWAY, why would we want him in Yankee Stadium????

2007-11-16 15:18:30
125.   OldYanksFan
Jeter meeting with his tax accountant:
2007-11-16 15:19:57
126.   jeterian swing
124 Where the hell are these Lowell rumors coming from? One TV station in Boston? I have not heard from one single NY media outlet (much less a Yankees beat reporter) that there is ANYTHING to this, which leads me to believe that it is an outright fabrication. If Cash hasn't denied it (has anyone even asked him about it?), I imagine that's because he'd rather remain silent and let Theo believe that an offer MIGHT be on the table, potentially forcing Theo's hand to go to a fourth year.

I am confident, though, that Theo is smarter than that.

I am also confident that Cash has no interest in or intention of signing Mike Lowell, and until SOMEONE connected to the team suggests otherwise, I will continue to believe this.

2007-11-16 15:25:41
127.   OldYanksFan
RAB: "When all is said and done, if A-Rod actually does return to the Yanks and signs a ten-year deal, they won't name the new stadium after him. But it will be known, for better or worse, as the House That A-Rod Built."
2007-11-16 15:27:44
128.   RIYank
Melky, Hideki and the Prob. Model of Range:
It does sound like good methodology. But other systems with equally good-sounding methods get very different results, so none of these analyses inspires great confidence. Still, the fact that any reasonable approach rates Hideki well above average at defense and Melky well below average, is remarkable.

On Lowell:
Come on. This has to be some kind of sneaky operation. It's in both Lowell's and the Yankees' interests for the world to believe we're offering serious money to Mike. Right? And, as everyone here notices, actually signing Mike Lowell makes no sense. Therefore...

2007-11-16 17:10:43
129.   dianagramr
A-Rod hasn't fired Boras, but our old friend Kenny Rogers has ...

2007-11-16 17:37:29
130.   Jeb
67 why do people keep asking "why didn't big Mac get called to testify, Why are they picking on bonds?". Simple answer: McGwire wasn't a BALCO customer and any testimony he could have offered would be irrelevent to whether victor conte or BALCO did anything wrong. (unless you call Mac as some kind of "expert" witness on the juice, which I'm sure he is).

Anyway, on the flip side of the coin I suppose you could also ask why didn't bonds have to testify before congress when mcgwire did? (answer: because bonds was a witness under subpoena in the federal grand jury BALCO case-thats why).

What surprises me - if Game of Shadows is accurate - is why bonds hasn't been indicted for tax evasion and/or money laundering. I wonder if that's coming next.

2007-11-16 21:02:29
131.   JeremyM
129 Just saw that, and I love it. While I realize Boras is always out for top dollar and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, I'm not a big fan of the ways he goes about getting it.

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