Baseball Toaster was unplugged on February 4, 2009.
Man, you think Captain Wunnerful is thankful for Barry and Alex today? Saved him from making the front pages, that's for sure. What's a little problem with the tax man when compared with the Bonds fiasco or the Rodriguez affair?
Still no word on Mariano, yet. Reports have it that he's holding out for a fourth year, that he wasn't thrilled with Hank Steinbrenner's comments after the Yankee offer was made public. The Yanks did sign Jose Molina, however, to a two-year, $4 millon deal.
Finally, here's an interesting bit on Rodriguez from Alan Schwarz.
Whatta ya hear, whatta ya say? Schmooze away!
I've decided that my favorite pro Bonds argument is "We're at war and the government is doing THIS?" Because apparently the war means the country should delve into anarchy.
I can't blame Mariano for going for that 4th year. If the Yankees can pay Alex all that money when they didn't have to, then Hank can pony up that 4th year.
In my opinion when you play the race card because you have no better excuse, you can ruin people's lives. If you slap them with the racist label, its almost impossible to to shake that.
But more importantly, and more appropriately in this case, its a boy that cried wolf situation. If you play the race card early and often on situations that have nothing to do with race, people are going to be less inclined to believe people when there is a real, legitimate act of racism.
$2M base and $600K for every 10 games played.
When it comes to evil, true or otherwise, Jesse Jackson barely registers on the list. Let's have a little perspective here...
And too this shall pass...
Having said that, it would be nice if someone put together an independent study of the effects of steroids/PED's in baseball.
Gotta get my morning coffee.
But... one of the linked articles mentions the Yanks offering Lowell 4 years to play 1B??? AHH!! RUN AWAY!! In the 3rd year, they'd be kicking themselves when his production drops to Andy Phillips levels.
Maybe the joke is on Gary and he isn't all the way black enough for the government to persecute?
Or maybe Barry is under indictment because the feds feel they can prove that he perjured himself and they don't give a rats ass what color he is?
Link to Goldman's Pinstriped Blog post:
http://tinyurl.com/2fy8dz
I like Molina, but his hitting as a Yankee last year was a total fluke. Expect his bat to be a black hole this year.
19 Agree largely. There is absolutely no way to know what steroids led to - in the sense of how many extra homeruns, strikeouts, innings played etc. How could this possibly be studied ethically much less soundly? There will always be a caveat when looking at most of the numbers assembled during this era.
http://tinyurl.com/38hubk
For every Bert Blyleven, there is a Don Drysdale. For every Tom Seaver, a Larry Dierker...
I'm certainly not a fan of Barry, but the Giambino doesn't make me smile either, even if he is "clean" now.
18 Stop ranting and read what I said. There will always be people in this country who see and treat people through the lens of race and stereotyping. I'm not wrong.
19 I completely agree with Goldman.
Seriously, I'm starting to think that Mo is not the guy I used to think he was.
Was it Goldman or Pinto or someone else who was making that point...
Yes, there will always be people who try to shoehorn any issue into a race issue. Doesn't make it any less wrong in this case.
That being said, Hank's comments and strategy seem particularly pointed to force that impression. The offer is so high that it would be hard for Mo to debate about it at all without giving the impression that he's being greedy. And his comments anticipated any qualms Mo might have and pre-cast it as being greedy.
27 Yes, I saw that. Thanks.
30 I read "I Am - Somebody" numerous times as a young'un. While I may not agree with everything he says, I agree that he is far from evil.
Four of them had long careers: Sutton, Blyleven, Tanana and Simmons. And the last three all had to come back from arm injuries.
As you point out, Drysdale was essentially done at 30; so was Catfish. 14 out of 33 (since 1946) won 0 games after that age.
One of the downsides is that you can end up putting too much muscle (strain) on bones and tendons/ligaments, and then be subject to tears / ruptures.
was in response to 39 and other related posts.
As I've said before, as a fan who came of age in an era of steroids, I plan on being just as cumudgeonly towards young fans of the 2050s as older fans are today about the 1950s... It's when I grew up, I can't help but romanticize it.
This is a case of the player setting the market, not the market setting the price. If Mo demands such a monstrous deal, the Yankees should call his bluff. Nobody's going to offer the Yankees even 75% of what they've already offered. It is strange to me that A-Rod is villified for wanting a raise after the best season of his career, but Mo wanting a gigantic raise after his worst is met by some fans with totally different feelings.
The next big thing should be a revolution of bullpens into something resembling logical use of leverage. The baseball world is a slave to the saves statistic, and the negotiations of Mariano Rivera are Exhibit A. Pitching one inning three times a week does not have the same value as catching nine innings, five times a week. Sorry Mo, you're not worth position player money.
Not everyone walks away from the game like Mattingly, head held high and everyone on speaking terms. Look at Bernie. Look at Torre. I don't know how this will come off w/ Mo, but this is a pridefull man who feels he has four good years left.
Dunno what to do. God how I would hate to see a 42-year-old Mo getting knocked around and pitching the 6th in Proctor-esque fashion. That would just kill me.
Mo - take the three years and walk away with your head held high. PLEASE!
Jackson: He sought out photo ops with terrorists, inciting anti-semitism in the African American community. That's evil.
Lowell: If we took him, I'd keep him at 3rd, move A-Rod to shortstop and send Jeter to 1st. 4 years would still scare me.
Mo: Why not offer an team option for the 4th year, vesting on 65 innings in year #3?
Bonds: Perjury indictment puts the final nail into the coffin of his reputation, and rightfully so. But should perjury keep him out of the Hall of Fame?
It's fine to seek more money no matter who you are or what you do, but at Mo's age, and given his career, you would think he would balance the money issue with the legacy issue, the comfort issue, etc. Maybe he doesn't care but it seems shortsighted to me. Unless he goes to the Red Sox, he's unlikely to be able to match the intensity of playing for the Yanks.
56 Don't think it'll keep him out of the Hall, unless baseball decides to put him on the ineligible list.
Yankees manager Joe Girardi is down in the Dominican Republic this week. He had dinner with Yankees senior Latin staff and visited the coaches on Tuesday. This morning (Wednesday) at the Yankees Latin Beisbol Academy, he gave a speech to the Latin coaches and staff followed by an interactive talk with 55 Latin players and eight players from the '06 and '07 draft. He then watched a Dominican Instructional League game against Toronto and viewed tryouts.
So in a span of two weeks, Girardi was at the GM Meetings and then spent time with the staff and players in the Dominican. This is why Brian Cashman wanted Girardi, so he could have a manager heavily involved in development.
Joe Torre managed the 25 guys in the majors. Girardi is clearly going to have input in all facets of baseball operations. It's an interesting dynamic.
11 There is often some reality in most cases involving black people. This country is usually happier to throw a black man in jail then a white man. I have to ask, why wasn't bigMac called before the grand jury? He was the first big name. He broke Maris's record.
12 Yes, he might e over-sensitive to Black issues. Or maybe While folk are under-sensitive to Black issues.
19 Amnesty is a great ideas. But we should have studies. At least we would have some trut instead of wild speculation. PEDs didn't make Barry strong. Working out did. PEDs make working out more productive, but plenty of people get strong without them.
20 Isn't 2m/yr a bit high for a BUC?
29 Not be mention dozens of others we know about and probably hundreds we don't. It is so much easier to hate one guy then have to try and understand 100.
32 I agree. 3/$45 is 50% more then he's worth. Who would be surprised if Mo has nothing by 2010. And he wants $12m+ for 2011?
Should Mo retiring as a Yankee be more important to him then it was to ARod?
35 Why didn't they go after bigMac? Or at least Canseco? You don't think MLB had anything to do with it do you? Just because Barry has always been chasing Hank?
38 Yes... and Clinton was almost impeach for GETTING A BLOW JOB! Yes.. he (stupidly) lied about it, just as Barry may have. But How many other (Presidents and) ballplayers have been asked this type of questions under oath? Between tax returns, drug use, speeding and 'impure thoughts', which one of us would be comfortable going on the stand?
And what about the 'leaks'. The testimony is GUARANTEED to be secret. Shouldn't there be punishment for those that corrupt the System? Shouldn't the System have a higher integrity then any one individual?
46 At $15m, Mo is getting paid about $200k- per inning, in about every other game. Conversely, thats about what ARod NOW gets paid per game. So the equation is: 2 games ARod = 1 Game/inning Mo. I think 2 games w/ARod wins more then 1 inning of Mo. Mo is getting paid VERY VERY well at $15m.
47 Agreed. I don't want to lose him, but just how much do the Yankees let players blackmail them? It should be more important to Mo to have his whole career as a Yankee then it is to the corporation.
49 Agreed. ARod good. Mo bad.
51 I agree. I asked this before. Could someone like Joba pitch 4-5 innings, in 2 appearances every 5 games? This would be like 130+ innings, or 4-5 innings for every 'start'. If he knew he was going 2 (or 3) innings, maybe he goes a little easier on himself for the first 3 batters. Considering warmups and 'game tension', could 3-1 inning appearances be just as stressful as 2-2 inning appearances?
54 "Dunno what to do. God how I would hate to see a 42-year-old Mo getting knocked around and pitching the 6th in Proctor-esque fashion. That would just kill me." And getting paid $15m to boot. It's nuts! What's wrong with Mo. Will he end up 'crawling' back to the Yankees for 3/$40?
- Rollie Fingers pitched to age 38 and was last effective at age 37.
- Goose Gossage pitched to age 42 and was effective to the end. However, he last topped 50 innings at age 37 and last topped 60 innings at age 34.
- Hoyt Wilhelm pitched to age 49 and threw 82 reasonably effective innings at age 47. Knuckleballers don't count.
- Trevor Hoffman was dominant at age 38 and still effective at age 39 (though he blew the one-game playoff). But he hasn't thrown more than 63 innings since age 32.
- John Franco pitched until age 44 and was effective until age 42. He last topped 60 innings at age 37.
- Jesse Orosco pitched until age 46 and was borderline-effective until 45. He last topped 50 innings at 41 and last topped 60 innings at 33.
So unless Mo develops a knuckleball, the chances of him throwing 70 dominant innings at age 41 are quite slim indeed.
- Bruce Sutter pitched 122 lights-out innings at age 31. He was never again effective (though he contributed 88 innings the next year), and he retired at age 35.
- Dennis Eckersly pitched 80 dominant innings at age 37. He continued to pitch for six more years, but was never again effective. He threw 67 innings at age 38, and never again topped 60.
65 66 I am very pleased to read that kind of news.
Personally, I don't see what the harm is in letting Mo look around. We all agree he's not getting a better offer, so what's the problem? But if you really want to exert more pressure, here's a better way: schedule a meeting with Francisco Cordero's agent.
Joba should not be considered as plan B.
I wouldn't begin to pontificate on the precise role of race in the Barry Bonds case, both in this particular legal matter and more generally with regard to his public image.
That said, I'd caution you against speaking about racism unless you know what you're talking about. A personal opinion is fine, but there are people who dedicate their lives to actually studying the issue because it's exceedingly complex.
Just because some people disingenuously exploit "the race card," as you call it, doesn't mean that asking whether or not race is a factor in this or that investigation is an illegitimate question.
This is America, you know.
The line between invention of "racism" out of whole cloth and discovery of a latent pattern is really hard to discern. I'm not saying you're right or wrong here, what I'm saying is that your remarks reveal a profound lack of sophistication on the topic and you might consider that.
Not meant in a patronizing or scolding way at all, mattpat, just a sincere observation about your apparent perspective on the subject. No disrespect is intended.
That said, based on the Marketplace and his age, he is worth 2/$20. Because he is MO RIVERA, he is worth 2/$24. Because he is a Yankee, to us, we would go 3/$36, which is over his real value. To show his real love, the Yankees went 3/$40 (willing to piss away $10m or more). Because he wanted more, and we do need a close, and out of respectm we went 3/$45. And he wants more? Read 69 . It verifies what we all know. That we are ONLY doing this deal because it's Mo.
But how far to we take that? And shouldn't Mo, with 3/$45 be laughing all the way to the bank? $15m for a 39 year closer... hahahah hahahah hahaha. I think a big part of Yankee money is keeping the 'family' together. But Jeez... can't the players be a TINY TINY bit reasonable?
Honestly, I'm ready to let Mo go. I think this behavior makes ARod look like a saint. Part of his rep, and his admission to the HOF comes bacause he was a Yankee, and played on great Yankee teams. We he still be 'Mo' if he played in Texas?
I was disappojnted in ARod, but this i can't believe.
I say NO NO NO to more years or more money.
But you hit upon something that, to me, is still unresolved - the profiting of various entities from the leaked grand jury testimony. That they caught the leak and have prosecuted him is wonderful. That Game of Shadows brings in money (and fame) still is horrible.
79 I'll agree even with the spellng errors.
Good one (that wouldn't take a very large frame).
http://tinyurl.com/2dq6dt
IIRC, they actually got a check for $3.76 (the 76 cents was for interest)...
"In my opinion when you play the race card because you have no better excuse, you can ruin people's lives."
From that statement, I didn't infer that Matt was dismissing the role that race plays in our society, but instead was pointing out how playing the "race card" (which itself implies unjust application) does more harm than good. I don't think a lecture on the matter is needed, nor do I think it is appropriate for you to call his opinion unsophisticated or uninformed.
I didn't know about the interest, but that makes it even funnier.
86 It was an interesting case to say the least.
I do believe, however, that the term "the race card" is itself too explosive and rhetorically charged ("hot-button," if you like) to be constructive.
Imo, using the term is itself an unsophisticated way of talking about a sophisticated problem.
I didn't mean to call Matt unsophisticated, only to say that his comments, as read on the screen, seemed so.
An issue as delicate as race deserves commensurately delicate terminology, is my basic point.
If it is to be discussed, I think something approaching sociological precision is more suitable than tabloid rhetoric, which I think it's fair to say "the race card" undoubtedly is.
That's a bit unsophisticated, you have to admit, especially in this context.
It just all came off as inappropriately off-the-cuff to me.
But I could be misreading him.
Matt wrote: "But more importantly, and more appropriately in this case, its a boy that cried wolf situation. If you play the race card early and often on situations that have nothing to do with race, people are going to be less inclined to believe people when there is a real, legitimate act of racism."
Matt is begging the question here. "in situations that have nothing to do with race..."
That's the issue at hand, namely, what has to do with race, what doesn't, and how you go about ascertaining the difference.
That's the whole magilla right there. When I said Matt's perspective was unsophisticated, that's largely what I meant. He takes as clear-cut fact that which is under contention, namely, whether and to what degree race plays a role.
His use of the phrase "real, legitimate act of racism" is also far from transparent.
Whether "racism" is best understood as an "act" or rather as an implicit structure that governs incidental actions is a serious question.
Is racism structural or is it transactional?
Can a particular social outcome be governed by racism even if none of the parties involved are dyed-in-the wool klansmen?
There's a wealth of issues implicit to Matt's comments and they bear serious consideration.
The starting point, though, would be to consider our use of terminology. Do we all mean the same thing by "racism?"
Is there a common-sense definition as well as numerous scholarly definitions?
Matt's comments don't suggest any awareness of these sorts of issues, which is what I meant by "unsophisticated."
I didn't mean it in a pejorative sense, only a descriptive one.
Anyway, I find myself in this discussion more often than not, and I'd rather not continue it here. Unless provoked, I have nothing more to say on the subject.
Weeping, will you please summarize and frame the main issues? (In fewer than 40,000 words, please.)
:)
ha ha hah ah aha !
"Reggie Jackson, Jesse Jackson, and Anglo-Saxon: a study of racial rhetoric in the medieval precursors of baseball!"
ha ha hah aah ah ah !!!
Uproariously, diabolically, brilliantly funny!!
ha hah ah aha h ah aah ah !!!!
Bravo.
Maybe there's something wrong with the PMR?
On Barry Bonds - but a different note - I don't know why but I find the notion that he is hunting with Ryan Klesko somewhat strange - that's not a duo that I would have pictured hunting together (and I am not implying anything about race)
Rivera is holding out for a fourth year guaranteed, but the Yankees aren't interested in allowing an extra year to be worked into the contract given the reliever's age, the newspaper reported.
No mo Mo?
D'oh.
$55 million is on the table.
Has Cashman lost his mind!!!!!!!
The $45 million offer drew criticism from Major League Baseball executives in charge of monitoring salaries and payrolls, as sources said that Yankee executives Hal Steinbrenner and Randy Levine were admonished during yesterday's owners' meetings in Florida for drastically upping the market for relievers.
:)
It makes no sense. No way the Yanks give up that first round pick, and especially not to the Red Sox.
That could be an unsubstantiated rumor, or it could be that one of the Steinbrenner spawn is playing a bigger role than expected.
111 they probably got that from feinsand at the daily news
http://tinyurl.com/2a755s
113 I was going to say ESPNEWS is reporting it too - but it's the same thing
it made only a little sense to pursue him for 3b - it makes none to pursue him for 1b so i too find it "pfft"
Which is exactly why it doesn't make any sense. So far, everything out of Hank's mouth has been in support of playing the kids etc. (Has Hal spoken?) They (Hank and Hal) seem to understand how important those draft picks (and a strong farm system) are. They also seem to be fully following Cashman's plan.
To sign Lowell would be a huge departure from all that.
David looks at every single batted ball, and for each he records (a) the vector (direction), (b) speed, and (c) type (line drive, fly, grounder). For each vector of each type, he finds the percentage turned into outs. Then for each team (or fielder) he figures out what percentage of the balls hit in their direction should have been converted to outs, and grades them by the ratio of the outs they made to the outs they should have made.
He's a pretty solid ballplayer, isn't he? At first blush, I wouldn't mind having him as our 1B.
I can't believe Matsui can rate higher, no matter the competition. Is that to say there are worse leftfielders than Hideki? Even Manny's not really that bad when you factor out his Mannyisms. Lord knows he seems to rob his fair share of hits against us.
119 I don't know about a consensus - but I'm not so sure about him a 1b - seems we could use 1b to get abs for a lot of people as Raf 114 mentioned and there is no need to give Boston a draft pick and pay even more money and years to an aging veteran
We have overpaid on ARod and Po, and maybe on Mo. It makes no sense to overspend on Lowell who will not add that much (if anything) to the team. Play Lowell to sit Giambi? To sit Mats or JD? It's nuts.
If the Red Sox don't want him WITH 1/2 THEIR GAMES AT FENWAY, why would we want him in Yankee Stadium????
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5725/n25818005338459875594vtyq2.jpg
I am confident, though, that Theo is smarter than that.
I am also confident that Cash has no interest in or intention of signing Mike Lowell, and until SOMEONE connected to the team suggests otherwise, I will continue to believe this.
It does sound like good methodology. But other systems with equally good-sounding methods get very different results, so none of these analyses inspires great confidence. Still, the fact that any reasonable approach rates Hideki well above average at defense and Melky well below average, is remarkable.
On Lowell:
Come on. This has to be some kind of sneaky operation. It's in both Lowell's and the Yankees' interests for the world to believe we're offering serious money to Mike. Right? And, as everyone here notices, actually signing Mike Lowell makes no sense. Therefore...
http://tinyurl.com/3dgywo
Anyway, on the flip side of the coin I suppose you could also ask why didn't bonds have to testify before congress when mcgwire did? (answer: because bonds was a witness under subpoena in the federal grand jury BALCO case-thats why).
What surprises me - if Game of Shadows is accurate - is why bonds hasn't been indicted for tax evasion and/or money laundering. I wonder if that's coming next.
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