Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Coast II Coast
2007-10-31 05:42
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Joe Girardi was introduced as the new Yankee manager yesterday while reports have it that Joe Torre has agreed to a three-year deal with the Dodgers. Presumably, Torre would bring Don Mattingly and Larry Bowa to L.A. with him. Lee Maz might jern them too.

Here's what's what around the web:

Joe Girardi: Tyler Kepner, Ed Price, and Mark Kriegel.

Joe Torre: Roger Angell, Murray Chass, Mike Vaccaro, T.J. Simers, Bill Shaikin, Bill Plaschke, and Jay Jaffe.

Don Mattingly: Joel Sherman, Filip Bondy, and Kat O'Brien.

Alex Rodriguez: John Harper, Adam Rubin, Ken Rosenthal, Steven Goldman, Nate Silver, and Hank Waddles.

Behind the pay wall at ESPN, Keith Law addresses Girardi's handling of young arms:

By turning the club over to a much younger manager in Joe Girardi and giving him a three-year deal, the Yankees have created a situation in which the manager's incentives more closely reflect the long-term goals of the club, which revolve around young pitchers.

If Joe Torre had agreed to stay, would he have been willing to balance the long-term needs of the club against his own desire to win in the current year? The Yankees apparently didn't think so. There's a bit of concern when you're trying to rebuild your roster around young players and your manager has a one- or two-year window until retirement.

Girardi didn't want to fill his 2006 Florida Marlins rotation with rookies but was overruled by the front office, a move that worked to his benefit. He coaxed excellent years out of Josh Johnson and Anibal Sanchez, a good (and well-behaved) year out of Scott Olsen, and a little value out of Ricky Nolasco before he wore down in the second half.

In 2007, however, Johnson, Sanchez, and Nolasco combined for 37 innings because of arm injuries. Although that's not enough to label Girardi as an abuser of young arms, it's not an indicator in his favor, either.

Rob Neyer gushes:

I got the impression this year that Girardi, after leaving the Marlins, simply decided that when he managed again, he would manage the Yankees. He could have managed some other team in 2007, but instead he took a part-time job as a TV broadcaster for the Yankees. This accomplished two things. It kept him mostly unemployed, and it exposed his acumen to anybody in New York -- or Tampa, Fla. -- who happened to be watching the Yankees on TV.

While all this talk about the three managerial candidates was going on, I kept asking myself, "How could they even think of hiring anybody but Girardi? He's clearly the best man for the job. He's the smartest, he's the youngest, and he's been the most successful."

My guess is that general manager Brian Cashman agreed with me all the while, and that the entire "process" was mostly for show.

Depending on what the Yankees do this winter, next season might be sort of a down year for the organization as they try to sort out their young pitchers. But if the Steinbrothers are patient with Girardi, I believe he'll be the franchise's greatest manager since Casey Stengel.

Lot's to chat about today. Fire away.

Comments (271)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-31 06:24:08
1.   Dimelo
It definitely feels with all the Yankee news going on that I've even forgotten that the Sawx won the series.

I wish Torre well....
I wish Girardi well....
I wish Mattingly well....
I wish ARod gets ebola....
Go '08!!!!

2007-10-31 06:25:18
2.   JoeInRI
1 Ditto
2007-10-31 06:29:05
3.   JoeInRI
2 Keeping my comments lean today
2007-10-31 06:30:44
4.   williamnyy23
I think the more important news story from yesterday was Mariano's positive meeting in Tampa. Now, if Cashman can just get Mo and Posada signed, we can really start to assess what this team needs to do retake the division in 2008.
2007-10-31 06:35:27
5.   ms october
1 Haha.
Me too - Everywhere I turned yesterday I saw the parade on tv - and there was just so much else going in it didn't seem to really concern me (though Paplebon is definitely certifiable)

I found Keith Law's article interesting. There are so many variables invloved with young pitchers and getting injured and what not, so who knows what role if any Girardi played - but though I'm sorry for the Marlins pitchers to be hurt - because of that situation, Girardi and the org will have to be even more careful with the Yanks young pitchers that this could actually be a good thing for the Yanks.

2007-10-31 06:35:50
6.   JL25and3
"Torre's composure and steadiness in hard times became as familiar as his odd, tilting trudge from the dugout to the mound to call in a fresh pitcher. A habitual modesty interwoven with an awareness of the difficult daily grind powerfully secured him to his players."

Never mind if you agree with the sentiment or not. Roger Angell is far and away the best damn baseball writer around.

2007-10-31 06:40:27
7.   Yankee Fan In Boston
5 i didn't have a chance to turn on the tv yesterday. however, while i was on my lunch break i did notice a skywriter tagging the clear blue sky with the word "red". i sought cover before he could finish.
2007-10-31 06:40:35
8.   Alex Belth
Yeah, good stuff on the Mo talks. I'd be shocked if he didn't return.
2007-10-31 06:42:10
9.   JoeInRI
ESPN had the Mets interested in Posada this morning. That might be worse than ARod to the Sox.
2007-10-31 06:44:23
10.   williamnyy23
9 The Post had a similar story, but the details made it seem like a real long shot. I am sure Minaya will have the Mets attached to every free's the way he does business.
2007-10-31 06:44:57
11.   Sarasota
PO is pissed and rightfully so. MO has less options.
2007-10-31 06:45:33
12.   JoeInRI
10 Yeah, how's that workin' out for ya, Omar?
2007-10-31 06:47:19
13.   JeremyM
11 What's he pissed about? Someone posted an article the other day and there's no tangible evidence that he doesn't like Girardi-in fact, he seems to think he owes him quite a bit and appreciates what he did for him.

And while it was hardly the Yankees intent, allowing him to see free agency is going to put more money in his pocket then signing him in the spring would have.

2007-10-31 06:47:22
14.   unmoderated
Trying to put the craziness behind me.
Trying to look to 2008.

But damn, YankeesWest is gonna be surreal.

2007-10-31 06:48:46
15.   JoeInRI
13 And I would think Mo has quite a # of options if he wanted to pursue them.
2007-10-31 06:49:22
16.   Alex Belth
Hey, quick question I wanted to throw out to you guys...I'm thinking of making up some Bronx Banter shirts. You guys got any ideas for slogans? For instance, I would probably have just "Bronx Banter" on the front, but on the back I might put a tag-line like "Rep Your Team" or "BS'n about Baseball since 2002." I'm just throwing those out. What do you guys have?
2007-10-31 06:50:27
17.   Yankee Fan In Boston
13 yeah. i thought the murmurs about posada not getting along with girardi were odd as well.

the posada yankeeography paints a different picture, for what little that is worth.

2007-10-31 06:51:58
18.   JoeInRI
16 "Karim Garcia-Free Since '03"

"If We Had $200 Million To Burn . . . We'd Still Probably Lose A Few"

2007-10-31 06:52:17
19.   ms october
7 good move.

I expect to be hearing a lot of Posada to the Mets and anyone else that might be looking for a catcher until he signs somewhere (or hopefully re-signs)- the Mets and the NY media have been dropping Posada hints for months.

2007-10-31 06:54:40
20.   williamnyy23
14 I guess the Dodgers strategy is to recreate successful teams and see what happens. With Nomar, Lowe, Mueller and Little, they tried Boston. I guess the Yankees are now on deck.

In any event, I am sure Willie Randolph is relieved that Joe hooked up with someone. Otherwise, the rumor mill would have started churning after every Mets three-game losing streak.

2007-10-31 06:54:47
21.   joe in boston
16 how about "Where's #134 ?"
2007-10-31 06:56:06
22.   NJYankee41
16 Does 134 have a place on the shirt?
2007-10-31 06:56:08
23.   joe in boston
16 Or :

" Remote - check
chips - check
soda - check
Laptop logged onto the Banter - check "

2007-10-31 06:56:49
24.   Sarasota
the issue w/ PO is not Girardi.
PO is an emotional guy. He feels dissed. The F/O stance put him off. Now it's going to cost significantly more and he's going to listen to offers. He is however married to NY in a lot of ways financially and through his charities. But make no mistake he'll seriously consider Wilpon cash
2007-10-31 06:56:58
25.   NJYankee41
21 I almost put that same exact thing. What is this Halloween?
2007-10-31 06:59:06
26.   ms october
16 Where we wouldn't have given Miguel Cairo 100ABs no matter what's in his belly

21 22 There has to be a 134 slogan

2007-10-31 06:59:37
27.   Yankee Fan In Boston
16 "you can take your 2007 AL MVP trophy and hold it between your knees."
2007-10-31 07:00:55
28.   JoeInRI
24 To paraphrase the Hankster, "If Jorgie doesn't want to be a Yankee . . . .
2007-10-31 07:01:48
29.   williamnyy23
16 If Alex hadn't opted out, Ha! would have been cool.

How about "Talking Yankees baseball from Abbott to Zuvella".

2007-10-31 07:02:22
30.   JoeInRI
29 Nice
2007-10-31 07:04:39
31.   Yankee Fan In Boston
29 yeah... i was trying to come up with something along those lines, but that easily topped what i was coming up with.
2007-10-31 07:05:20
32.   Yankee Fan In Boston
16 "opt this."
2007-10-31 07:06:27
33.   ms october
Yeah - william's is really good
2007-10-31 07:06:58
34.   williamnyy23
32 Bronx Banter...where opting out isn't an option.

That's kind of like not ever taking sides with anyone against the family again, ever.

2007-10-31 07:22:22
35.   bp1
34 Bronx Banter ...

... beating dead horses daily
... Where is Karim Garcia? (nod to 18 )
... Alex and Cliff's House
... Best thing with Sliced Bread (where is he this morning?)
... No Issue Left Uncovered
... Yacking on the Yankees since 2002

this could be fun

2007-10-31 07:23:58
36.   Knuckles
How about 'Bronx Banter' across the back shoulders, and on the front: 'BFOG' with an arrow pointing down?
2007-10-31 07:29:57
37.   JL25and3
36 Wow. I really like that one.
2007-10-31 07:31:30
38.   JoeInRI
36 Forgive my ignorance . . . BFOG?
2007-10-31 07:31:41
39.   Count Zero
16 I kinda' like Ms. October's at 26
2007-10-31 07:33:06
40.   Count Zero
16 You know what would be kind of cool too? If you could get them personalized with your handle...
2007-10-31 07:33:58
41.   Yankee Fan In Boston
38 belly full of guts.

brilliant, knuckles.

2007-10-31 07:34:01
42.   Bama Yankee
38 Belly Full Of Guts

of course you should really use BFOG+ (since it is adjusted for different size bellies)

2007-10-31 07:34:54
43.   Shaun P
16 35 We can't 134 a dead horse, but we try, daily

OK, seriously now . . . shouldn't there be some kind of hip hop reference? Alex's best post titles always seem to have a hip hop reference. I'm the last person to come up with one of those, though. But I bet one of you could!

2007-10-31 07:35:14
44.   JoeInRI
41 {42} Ahh . . . quite brilliant. I would probably need another plus or 2.
2007-10-31 07:35:51
45.   Shaun P
42 And veteran grittiness!

At least that's what I told the Dodger Thoughts crowd last night.

2007-10-31 07:35:52
46.   Schteeve
16 How about on the back we could have our choice of names on the back. There would be a "Belth" option a "Corcoran" option and so on, for all the writers?

Then we could collect them all!

2007-10-31 07:36:23
47.   JoeInRI
43 OK, on that note - -

"It Takes A Nation Of Millions . . . "

2007-10-31 07:36:37
48.   Bama Yankee
41 you got me by 3 seconds (i knew that i shouldn't have used those capital letters...)
2007-10-31 07:39:22
49.   Schteeve
"Joe Torre: From The Boogiedown to Tinsletown"

apologies to Mos Def and Scritti Politti

2007-10-31 07:40:07
50.   Bronxer
23 How about beer instead of soda.

Glad to see that Joe in Boston is back!

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-31 07:45:45
51.   Zack
6 Totally.

I can't believe nobody has commented on the end of that Neyer quote. That's a mighty big claim for someone with Neyer's knowhow. Not that there is any possible way to know, but I like ot hear stuff like that!

36 Awesome

Until two or so days ago I would have just said Bronx Banter on the front and "HA!" on the back. I'd also recommend "[Wacky Dance!] on the back, but that is perhaps a bit too obscure...

2007-10-31 07:53:41
52.   RIYank
1 2 3 Me too.
Rhode Islanders in Solidarity with Dimelo!

Shirt slogan:
So far I like Knuckles' (or the "+" version), but let's take this slow and not be too hasty, make sure all the options have been fully discussed...

2007-10-31 07:53:59
53.   ms october
43 47 49

Torre's could be - Goin back to Cali

Since the front reads: Bronx Banter,
The back is: Step into a World

2007-10-31 07:55:25
54.   Shaun P
51 If the Yanks' young pitching is as good as its supposed to be . . .

And if the Yanks don't ever give out any Giambi/Pavano-style contracts again (I don't think they will) . . .

And the Yanks bring their financial resources to bear on the draft fulltime . . .

then I think Girardi could win 5 Seriouses - which is all it would take to be "the franchise's greatest manager since Casey Stengel."

A lot of ifs, but I think that's where Neyer is coming from.

2007-10-31 07:57:38
55.   JL25and3
51 [Wacky dance] is excellent.

Yeah, Neyer's quote was a little extravagant. Girardi's got electric stuff, no doubt. But with one whole year under his belt, I'm happy if he's merely a very good manager this year. History will take care of itself.

2007-10-31 07:58:17
56.   RIYank
Girardi and Young Arms:
I'm starting to worry now that Joe2 will bend over backward not to over-use the younguns, and in so doing under-use them. I'm assuming he knows exactly what the rap on his managerial skills is, and that he's not so convinced of the wisdom of his former ways that he'd plow ahead irrespective of what everyone else in the world thinks his mistake was.

Put it this way: he must know that if he burns out Chamberlain, he's finished as a manager, forever. No GM would be crazy enough to take a chance on something like that happening again. He must know that.

2007-10-31 07:59:59
57.   RIYank
What about:

"Come hang out at our zoo"


2007-10-31 08:01:13
58.   Yankee Fan In Boston
"joba has a posse"
2007-10-31 08:02:52
59.   Sliced Bread
16 On the back?

It is high... it is far... it is FREE!

Sheppard's got the voice, we've got the Banter.

Putting pinstripes into words since 2002

More Yankee nuts than a Reggie Bar

2007-10-31 08:04:12
60.   ms october
55 Yeah - Neyer has gotten a little crazy the last few days - the other day he had a contest nicknaming Hank & Hal.

In any event, it's very hard to predict how long Girardi will be around - in addition to the patience or lake thereof from the Steimbrenners and the front office - will he be a manager that wears on teams - I don't think he will be in the range of Showalter - but only time will tell.

2007-10-31 08:05:01
61.   Yankee Fan In Boston
hey. guess what. the angels have already spoken with boras.

( )

...of course, these talks took place in july, but who's concerned with such minor details?

2007-10-31 08:06:15
62.   Bronxer
61 Small details. I'm sure they were just exchanging pleasantries in July ...
2007-10-31 08:06:25
63.   Shaun P
52 Not too hasty . . . I like that.

This is Alex's second ever post (according to the archives):

How about:

"Passionate Yankee Fans"

2007-10-31 08:08:41
64.   Murray
Front: Bronx Banter (in Yankee script)

Back: The House That Belth Built

2007-10-31 08:08:47
65.   seattleyank
How about putting our individual usernames on the back, perhaps in additional to whatever slogan you come up with? Personalize them.
2007-10-31 08:09:44
66.   Bama Yankee
59 Good stuff, Sliced.

43 How about:
"Rappin' about the Yanks since 2002"

2007-10-31 08:12:37
67.   ms october
56 yeah - i was thinking that too - girardi cannot have that as his reputation (though cicny doesn't seem to care turning that homer bailey kid or whatver his name is to dusty) - which means there would have to be some bp arms that can go multiple innings - i read somewhere (sorry forget the source) that because of girardi's relationship with jon leiber he might try to get him to be the long man in the pen
2007-10-31 08:15:15
68.   Adrian
Let's make it pinstriped t-shirt, Bronx Banter across the front, 134 across the back. Maybe we can get our handles, but that'd probably cost a lot.

That or "Talking Yankees from Abbott to Zuvella" -- that was a great idea.

2007-10-31 08:18:51
69.   Bama Yankee
Borrowing from the old Cheers theme song:

"Bronx Banter...
where everybody knows your name... unless you're Karim Garcia"

or maybe it should just be:
"Bronx Banter...
where everybody knows your screen name"

2007-10-31 08:21:50
70.   thurmtheman
16 It's a little dated but my all time favorite bleacher chant:

'We don't freeze our Hall of Famers'

2007-10-31 08:24:07
71.   williamnyy23
It probably wont make huge headlines, but another player has excercised his player option, and it should raise eyebrows in Yankeeland. Dave Riske has decided to forgo his $2.9mn 2008 salary and see free agency. I've always liked Riske, and think he'd be a very good bullpen addition.
2007-10-31 08:25:10
72.   Yankee Fan In Boston
68 if the shirt is pinstriped, it should have a black armband stripe with "JD" above it.
2007-10-31 08:25:59
73.   williamnyy23
69 I like "where everybody knows your sreen name", but Cheers was a Red Sox bar (it's still my favorite all-time show)!
2007-10-31 08:26:24
74.   Sliced Bread
69 backatcha, Bama.
2007-10-31 08:27:17
75.   Bronxer
73 I agree - Certainly nothing that could be tied back to Boston
2007-10-31 08:30:55
76.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
Re: PO going to the Mets...a few thoughts:

1) Not that Omar's above giving FA's more years than they're worth (see: just about everyone he's signed to the Mets), but I think every AL club, Yanks included, has a contract-length advantage over the Mets and every NL team simply b/c the AL teams - Yanks included - could shift Posada to full-time DH 3 years out should the years eventually catch up (sorry...) to his skills behind the plate. The last thing the Mets want is another Piazza on their hands with nowhere to put him.

2) We'll ALWAYS outspend the Mets to re-sign him.

Predition: Yanks, 3 years, $42 million, with a 4th year option at $15 million against a $ 3 million buyout.

2007-10-31 08:32:30
77.   RIYank
Yeah, the Cheers! thing is just too Boston. Otherwise excellent.

I like 64 , but is it a little unfair to Cliff?

2007-10-31 08:32:58
78.   Bama Yankee
73 & 75 Yeah, I didn't like the Boston connection either (although "borrowing" that Ruth guy from Boston for a few years worked out nicely for us... ;-)
2007-10-31 08:33:32
79.   RIYank
Hm, speaking of "too Boston", 76 that's an obscure Boston/Cambridge allusion screen name you have there!
2007-10-31 08:34:33
80.   dianagramr
I'm voting for 64
2007-10-31 08:35:06
81.   underdog
anyone else we dodger fans should expect to join the team? don zimmer? moose skowron? this is quite a bizarro week for us but I'm hoping for the best. as I told my dad, the yankee fan and torre fan, my only concern with him which has been discussed here, is how he'll be at playing their young guys, and will he overuse pitchers? (poor scott proctor must be nervous) but I think they could also use a jolt of energy and someone more in control than grady (whom I liked overall) was.

girardi seemed the only move for the yanks.

so is mattingly definitely following joe to LA or is that all unconfirmed? he'll have to wait awhile if he wants to coach son preston there.

2007-10-31 08:36:59
82.   Bama Yankee
My vote is for 74 !

...wait, that was not a nomination was it?
My bad...

2007-10-31 08:37:25
83.   Murray
77 Was calling the Stadium the House that Ruth Built a little unfair to Col. Ruppert, Bob Meusel, Bob Shawkey, etc.? Nobody let that get in the way of a good nickname. Belth has the same number of syllables as Ruth and the same "th" ending, but if you wanted it to be 'The House that Alex and Cliff Built,' that would work, too.
2007-10-31 08:38:33
84.   Murray
81 How does Scott Proctor feel about this? Maybe Bill Plaschke can interview his pitching arm.
2007-10-31 08:39:13
85.   JoeInRI
79 Was thinking the same thing . . .
2007-10-31 08:39:22
86.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
79 Actually it's an homage to Dwayne Schneider...
2007-10-31 08:39:51
87.   vockins
Navy blue shirt, interlocking BB on the front with "Belth" and a number would be best. Modell's yanks t style.

Next year you could do "Corcoran", "Span", etc.

2007-10-31 08:42:13
88.   RIYank
83 Hm, not exactly the right analogy. Maybe it was unfair to Gehrig?

No, I like the, um, prosidy of "The House that Belth Built", and also the symbolism, and so on. And he's the founder, so yeah, I withdraw my 'fairness' criticism.

2007-10-31 08:43:37
89.   RIYank
87 And the numbers could all be in blue, underscored.
2007-10-31 08:44:31
90.   RIYank
86 Oh. Wow. Is that where Tom and Ray got it?
(I had to Google Dwayne Schneider.)
2007-10-31 08:45:32
91.   Bama Yankee
86 The dude from One Day at a Time? What was his name...
(checking Wikipedia)
oh yeah, Pat Harrington, Jr.
2007-10-31 08:47:31
92.   joejoejoe
Front: Bronx Banter
Back: World Serious
2007-10-31 08:49:01
93.   murphy
i am a big fan of the modell's style shirt. we should get corcoran AND belth ones made.

also like 92

2007-10-31 08:50:03
94.   Murray
83 I thought about that, but Gehrig was a borderline rookie in 1923 when the phrase "House That Ruth Built" first appeared in print. Therefore it would be inappropriate to refer to somebody who really wasn't there at the time the phrase was coined when making the comparison. In fact, that's also my argument for not including Cliff--no offense to Cliff, but it was Alex who started this website.
2007-10-31 08:52:01
95.   Yankee Fan In Boston
92 nice.
2007-10-31 08:52:13
96.   murphy
no offense to alex, but i only came to this site once cliff came on board.

any other "Clifford's Big Red Blog" fans? holla back.

2007-10-31 08:54:11
97.   Yankee Fan In Boston
96 had i known that cliff existed and was writing, i would most definitely have made it a regular destination.
2007-10-31 08:54:46
98.   Bronxer
96 We could have an Alex shirt and a Cliff shirt, like home and away jerseys
2007-10-31 08:55:18
99.   Yankee Fan In Boston
98 also nice.
2007-10-31 08:56:31
100.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
90 Who are Tom and Ray?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-31 08:56:58
101.   Bama Yankee
92 Good call.

How about these variations:

"getting Serious news about the Yanks since 2002"

"where Serious fans get their Yankee news"

"a World of Serious Yankee fans"

2007-10-31 08:58:01
102.   dianagramr
"The Blog that Alex and Cliff Built"
2007-10-31 08:58:16
103.   joe in boston
100 you meant to ask: "Who's Bronxer ?"
2007-10-31 08:59:11
104.   RIYank
2007-10-31 08:59:13
105.   dianagramr
Front: "Bronx Banter"
Back: "Showing more range than Jeter ..."

(OK, perhaps not)

2007-10-31 09:00:30
106.   RIYank
101 Or just,
Serious Yankee Talk

'Talk' may not be quite right for a blog.

2007-10-31 09:00:45
107.   Bronxer
103 Ah, Joe returns. No, let's keep this to the Banter ...
2007-10-31 09:02:05
108.   Knuckles
81 I got an exclusive on Proctor's reaction on my blog today...
2007-10-31 09:02:55
109.   JoeInRI
I like World Serious
2007-10-31 09:04:07
110.   Bama Yankee
106 Where only the Serious Yankee fans need to apply... (all others see: Hud, Lo)
2007-10-31 09:04:10
111.   JoeInRI
92 I would expect nothing less from a "Joe"
2007-10-31 09:05:16
112.   Bronxer
103 No lunch duty today, Joe?
2007-10-31 09:08:23
113.   weeping for brunnhilde
16 How 'bout, "We don't fucking curse too much!"
2007-10-31 09:08:29
114.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
104 AHA! Thanks. And yes - that's where they get it I'm sure. Schneider's euphemism for "Holy Crap" was "Sonya Henny's tutu!"

For the shirts, I'll weigh in and vote with World Serious on the back.

BTW, LONG time lurker, recent poster. After A-rod et-al I couldn't hold out any longer...

2007-10-31 09:08:48
115.   OldYanksFan
CC BB 4 A QT on
. . .Everything
2007-10-31 09:10:32
116.   weeping for brunnhilde
26 Heh heh heh. :)
2007-10-31 09:10:36
117.   OldYanksFan
134 The Sox
2007-10-31 09:12:35
118.   NJYankee41
117 I love it! And only Bronx Banterers will no what it means ;)
2007-10-31 09:12:49
119.   weeping for brunnhilde
46 :)
2007-10-31 09:13:23
120.   NJYankee41
118 How embarassing. will KNOW
2007-10-31 09:13:38
121.   RIYank
117 118 No!
Red Sox fans define themselves relative to the Yankees. We do not return the compliment.
2007-10-31 09:14:00
122.   Bronxer
117 I like it too, but let's keep it Pro-Yankee and not Anti-Sox.
2007-10-31 09:14:25
123.   weeping for brunnhilde
53 I don't think so.
2007-10-31 09:15:25
124.   weeping for brunnhilde
102 And that Emma kept together.
2007-10-31 09:15:36
125.   NJYankee41
121 Point well taken. We can't lower ourselves to those standards.
2007-10-31 09:19:19
126.   weeping for brunnhilde
114 Welcome!
2007-10-31 09:19:43
127.   Count Zero
92 Sweeeeeet. And also the last variation in 101

102 Ouch! But funny. ^_^

2007-10-31 09:20:39
128.   Count Zero
Oops I meant 105 not 102
2007-10-31 09:20:40
129.   Bama Yankee
114 Welcome aboard, Sonya Hennys Tutu (can we just call you Tutu, it's easier to type? ;-)
2007-10-31 09:35:12
130.   YankeeInMichigan
Pettitte says he will either pick up his option or retire:
Now there's a mensch.
2007-10-31 09:35:36
131.   Schteeve
Front: "Bronx Banter"
Back: "#27 by 2011...(possibly.)"
2007-10-31 09:39:30
132.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
129 Tutu is fine, thanks :D

On Pettitte, if you're the Yanks do you offer him yet another player option, for 2009, as enticement to re-up for 2008?

2007-10-31 09:39:46
133.   JoeInRI
[131}I'm not ready to concede 2008, baby
2007-10-31 09:39:54
134.   williamnyy23
130 No surpirse...Andy had said that going in. If he went back on his word, all hope would be lost for being able to take athletes at their word.

In other news, Mike Cameron will start the 2008 season with a 25 game suspension for using a banned substance. That can't help his free agency candidacy.

2007-10-31 09:40:01
135.   underdog
btw, all the linkage above is great, but can I request no more bill plaschke links here? makes sense in this case but in general the guy's wrongheaded about almost everything. a fool, if you will. and hopefully you won't. the object of much wrath over at dodger thoughts. I remember when the la times had the best sportswriters. now they've been surpassed by the sf chronicle even. (some former times writers ended up there.)
/pointless rant, off
ps: do we have to take larry bowa too?
2007-10-31 09:43:36
136.   Bama Yankee
Here's one more (I'll stop now):
"Where dead horses go to live,
Karim Garcia will never die and
Serious fans follow the Yanks"
2007-10-31 09:43:52
137.   underdog
84 - proctor can't be happy, or his arm can't. but I do think they have enough obvious other go to guys in the pen and another one coming up in meloan (possibly their version of joba) that hopefully joe will spread things out. the way things are going we'll probably end up with rivera too.
2007-10-31 09:47:27
138.   Bama Yankee
135 "ps: do we have to take larry bowa too?"

Just remind Torre to leave Jeter's bat on his way out the door... ;-)

2007-10-31 09:48:58
139.   YankeeInMichigan
135 I wouldn't complain about Bowa. He may be a bit too uptight to manage a team, but he was beloved as a 3rd base/infield coach in the Bronx. Many credit Bowa for turning Cano into a defensive asset.
2007-10-31 09:52:15
140.   YankeeInMichigan
134 All hope as opposed to 99% of hope? Whom else would the Yankees have entrusted which such an offer (i.e. two years, but we'll make the second year an option in case you decide to retire).
2007-10-31 09:52:16
141.   Bama Yankee
137 Word is that Tanyon Sturtze, Paul Quantrill and Miguel Cairo are carpooling to LA as we speak (or this case).
2007-10-31 09:53:11
142.   Bama Yankee
137 Word is that Tanyon Sturtze, Paul Quantrill and Miguel Cairo are carpooling to LA as we speak (or this case).
2007-10-31 09:54:50
143.   Bama Yankee
141 & 142 Sorry (I knew that was going to happen when the first submit did not seem to go through)
2007-10-31 09:55:48
144.   JL25and3
100 Karim Garcia's brothers.
2007-10-31 09:58:17
145.   JL25and3
Of course Pettitte will take the option if he wants to play. I doubt he'd make $16M anywhere else.
2007-10-31 10:03:46
146.   Schteeve
Any update on Abreu? He turns into an expensive pumpkin on the 2nd.
2007-10-31 10:09:22
147.   Alex Belth
Some really good slogans so far. I'll probably collect 5-7 and post them and put it to a vote...but so far, here are some I really dig...

Front: Bronx Banter (in a graffitti font)

Back: Step Into a World
All the Way Live since 2002
World Serious
No Base Left Unturned
Debating Da Bombers since 2002
The Blog that Belth Built
Talking Yankees baseball from Abbott to Zuvella
A Family Affair
It Takes a Nation of Millions
Putting Pinstripes into Words since 2002
Zoo Keepers since 2002
More nuts than a Reggie Bar
World Serious
Where dead horses go to live, Karim Garcia will never die and Serious fans follow the Yanks

2007-10-31 10:11:56
148.   Shaun P
146 I've heard nothing. I'd expect them to either pick the option up, or try to get him a 2 year deal at a slightly lower amount (say 2 years, $28M) that erases the option.
2007-10-31 10:12:07
149.   ms october
146 haven't heard anything new - just that the yanks decided in their first meeting to pick it up - maybe they are waiting until friday to announce
2007-10-31 10:12:24
150.   Mattpat11
Sounds like Cameron may have been partaking in the Mary Jane.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-31 10:14:35
151.   Shaun P
150 Speaking of the Padres, someone in the last thread mentioned picking up Kevin Kouzmanoff via trade. The Yanks could get him, maybe, since the Pads have a prospect named Chase Headley who's slated to take over at 3B soon (maybe even in 2008).
2007-10-31 10:17:47
152.   New Amsterdam Yankees
137 "I do think they have enough obvious other go to guys in the pen and another one coming up in meloan (possibly their version of joba) that hopefully joe will spread things out."

The problem with Mr. Torre is more that he will inexplicably use the top bullpen guys with 8 and 9 runs leads. And if Meloan starts next year the way he finished last year (9 ER in 7 IP, very un-Joba like) you won't see him for a month.

"the way things are going we'll probably end up with rivera too."

Not likely.

2007-10-31 10:17:51
153.   Mattpat11
147 Serious reminds me too much of Steve Somers.
2007-10-31 10:21:00
154.   Schteeve
133 I'm not conceding anything either, but we are used to scoring a lot of runs, and I don't know where those runs are going to come from next year.

Posada is almost a lock to be significantly worse next season if he comes back.

Jeter's slugging is feeble.

Giambi is a total question mark.

Abreu is what he is, might be a touch better next year.

Cabrera might pick up a bit more power but I'm not holding my breath.

Cano might pick up a bit more power and I'm sorta holding my breath.

Matsui is probably going to be a hair worse next season.

All that means, that the pitching is going to have to be a LOT better next season. With full years from Joba, Hughes and Kennedy as well as Wang and hopefully Pettitte, maybe it gets better, but maybe not.

At this point, 85 wins wouldn't shock me.

2007-10-31 10:24:16
155.   Knuckles
Me, here. You, there. Steve ___ on the other side of the glass. Schmoooozing...
2007-10-31 10:26:16
156.   underdog
good to know about bowa. has to be a marked improvement over rich 'the windmill' donnelly at third.
and please don't mention sturtze while i'm eating..
and re: meloan, you may be right that torre could be impatient about using him much early if he struggles, but don't let his numbers late last season fool you. he has fab stuff. may have higher learning curve than joba.
ah well, guess we'll see. I still think its the dodgers' gm and owner who need to figure out what they want.
2007-10-31 10:28:37
157.   Bama Yankee
156 you should try watching Sturtze pitch while you are eating... ;-)
2007-10-31 10:43:39
158.   New Amsterdam Yankees
156 "re: meloan, you may be right that torre could be impatient about using him much early if he struggles, but don't let his numbers late last season fool you. he has fab stuff."

Oh, don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to disparage Meloan. I took a look at his milb numbers too; the K-rate is ridiculous, and he barely gave up a hit every two innings. My point was more that Joe was only comfortable with Joba because he had no other options, and because Joba was so was clearly dominant right away. Had he struggled even a little bit, I'm not sure Joe would have used him much either. That is his biggest weakness, he has a tendency to prefer veteran mediocrity over unproven upside. He should be great in the clubhouse though, which seems to be especially important for the Dodgers.

2007-10-31 10:43:53
159.   Sliced Bread
Who gets #13 next year? One of the kids? One of the coaches (Maz was the last coach)? Supastar to be named later?
2007-10-31 10:45:41
160.   Bama Yankee
154 Hopefully, we won't have to rely on getting 30 starts out of Igawa/Clippard/DeSalvo/Rasner like we did last year (not to mention 10 starts from Karstens/P@v$*#/Wright/Henn).

Maybe we should plan on a six-man rotation (with the innings limits) and make sure we have someone reliable to make spot starts if necessary (easier said than done, I know).

2007-10-31 10:46:08
161.   williamnyy23
159 I am not sure how popular #13 will be, but I have a feeling the Yankees will be anxious to give it away.
2007-10-31 10:52:37
162.   Mattpat11
161 Remember the first 46 after Pettitte?

Donovan Osborne

2007-10-31 10:53:14
163.   Bama Yankee
159 Maybe Girardi brings Jim Leyritz back as "bat twirling coach" or "funky stance guru" or "clutch playoff homer king"
2007-10-31 10:53:42
164.   Knuckles
161 Well, if Mattingly was hired, maybe he'd have coaxed Pags back from Asia, gotten Rags to be the pitching coach and wear #19, and put Bye Bye Balboni on the bench with #50.
2007-10-31 10:54:58
165.   Yankee Fan In Boston
162 i believe mattingly originally wore 46 as well.
2007-10-31 11:02:20
166.   ms october
2007-10-31 11:03:31
167.   JoeInRI
133 We don't have to replace all of ARod's production. Even if you subtract 60 RBI's from his total, the Yankees would still have led the league in RS.

I expect Cano, Abreu and Melky to all have better (complete) seasons.

I expect the starting pitching to be improved.

I expect a little more innovation on offense and a little better bullpen managment.

Do I expect too much??

2007-10-31 11:04:57
168.   JL25and3
158 I thought that Torre really went against his usual veteran preference last year. In the second half, he also spread the bullpen work around pretty well - didn't work anyone to death, didn't leave guys moldering on the end of the bench.
2007-10-31 11:08:25
169.   JL25and3
167 It's not as simple as subtracting some of his RBIs. There are also the runs he scored, the runners he advanced and so on.

I suppose you're right that they don't have to replace all of his production, though - because they can't.

2007-10-31 11:10:26
170.   YankeeInMichigan
164 I doubt he'd have been able to get Pags his #6 back. That would have been worse than the Tigers giving Trammell's #3 to Sheffield.
2007-10-31 11:17:34
171.   Bama Yankee
166 Thanks for the link...but I was only joking (although Leyritz did have a flare for the dramatic)
2007-10-31 11:26:59
172.   New Amsterdam Yankees
168 I don't really disagree, though I do think Cashman forced his hand more than ever before when he traded Proctor, DFA'd Cairo, and instituted the Rules (which I think played a large role in the distribution of the workload in the 'pen).
2007-10-31 11:30:20
173.   nemecizer
117 Heh, I like that: "134 the Sox". Inside joke and sums up the attitude of most on the Banter.
2007-10-31 11:38:25
174.   Bama Yankee
169 I realize that trying to replace Opt-Rod's production is almost an exercise in futility... but what about this:
Replace Melky with Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones
Replace Minky with Giambi
Put Bonds at DH
Put Betemit at third

I'm not saying that I would do this, but if someone wanted to replace the offensive production...would these guys get close?

2007-10-31 11:39:01
175.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
In terms of y-y production, I think there's a decent chance we could see a much better (i.e 2nd half) Johnny Damon than we saw this year. If he stays healthy of course (I know I know...)
2007-10-31 11:44:30
176.   RIYank
174 I don't like replacing Melky by a 30-something OF.

Andruw was a worse hitter than Melky last year. Probably an abberation, but I'm worried that it signals his decline. Torii is 32, which is not a good age for a CF. (We don't have to look very far to notice that fact.) Both of those guys will be paid much, much more than Melky, will be untradeable if we suddenly need to deal someone, and of course Melky is likely to improve over the next few years. Not just likely -- it's a near certainty.

The other moves do have something to be said for them, though.

2007-10-31 11:47:33
177.   standuptriple
Another t-shirt idea:

Midges be damned!

2007-10-31 11:47:40
178.   bp1
175 Abreu is in a walk year and just might come into camp in shape and ready to go. Damon might come into Spring Training in shape as well, trying to get back to having regular playing time or his post-Yankee prospects are limited. I expect both of them to pick up some of the slack.

Matsui - who knows. He was off-the-charts for one month, and entirely mediocre/bad for the rest of the season. Residual wrist problems? Bad knees? Hard to say. The optimist in me says he gets healthy and has a consistently decent Matsui year, not the yo-yo we saw last year. Decent being .290/25/100.

Cano had a crappy first couple months then came on strong. There is nothing to say he doesn't start off strong this year.

Giambi was a non-entity for most of the year. Who knows what to expect from him. The potential remains for him to be a .400 OBP guy with slugging power, but it's a crapshoot.

There is still potential for a lot of runs on this team, even without the third baseman.

2007-10-31 11:52:27
179.   JL25and3
172 Torre stopped playing Cairo almost two months before he was DFA'ed Miggy stopped playing 1B when Phillips was called up - that is, as soon as Joe had a slightly better option. When they got Betemit, Cairo was benched completely.

As for the bullpen, I understand about Proctor and Joba. But in the past, that wouldn't have stopped Torre from continuing to brutalize Vizcaino, or from letting Edwar gather dust (his second time up).

2007-10-31 11:53:35
180.   RIYank
178 OF: I agree with you about the individuals. It does seem to me that we should expect one of our old OFs to have a problem this year, just by the law of averages.

Cano: it wasn't just last year. He was very weak in the spring in '06, too. Here's hoping he's about to grow out of that problem. If so, he's an All-Star (a 2B with top defensive skills and a .900 OPS!).

I'd add Melky to the list of Likely to Produce More. He's 23. Decent hitters almost always improve from seasonal age 22 to 23. So, yeah, maybe we pick up some extra runs from improvements in the April and May performances of our current players.

2007-10-31 11:54:41
181.   ms october
171 i knew you were joking - the problem is king jimmy's not
2007-10-31 11:56:39
182.   Bama Yankee
176 Agreed. I certainly wouldn't want to sign Hunter or Jones to the kind of long term deal that they probably would ask for. However, if you get Jones to go for a shorter deal (since his numbers were down last year) and you could package Melky in a deal for Santana (big IF, but I can dream, right?) it might not be that bad to take a chance on a 30-something CFer (as long as you keep an eye on the expiration date).
2007-10-31 12:03:59
183.   RIYank
182 I'd take the deal that nets Santana, for sure. In that case, maybe Torii and Johan are friends?

My own guess would have been that Andruw blew a lot of his future salary with this past terrible year. But he seems to be listed as the top CF FA, and among the very top FAs in baseball (though obviously not close to the top FA), so I guess he'll command a $17M sort of salary or a long contract or both. I've always liked Andruw. Two years ago I was hoping that the Yanks could stopgap at CF until he was a free agent. Now it just looks like a baaaad move.

2007-10-31 12:19:18
184.   JL25and3
180 Most hitters improve from age 22 to 23. But I'd feel more confident about that if he had shown improvement from age 21 to 22. He didn't.
2007-10-31 12:29:10
185.   Bama Yankee
183 Yeah, I wonder how much Andruw will fetch on an open market that includes: Hunter, Rowand and Lofton (with his playoff BFOG+ ;-) not to mention that the big money spenders will likely go after Me-Rod first. Will someone actually give Jones what he is looking for? Probably so (see: Matthews Jr., Gary), but who knows.
2007-10-31 12:40:02
186.   Schteeve
184 Yeah, Melky isn't gonna be all that great, I think he's pretty close to his ceiling. If he stays healthy, I'm sure he'll have one or two very solid seasons, but that's it. His value is in his defense.
2007-10-31 12:42:37
187.   Schteeve
186 That said I don't think Torii Hunter is that big of an upgrade. Melky actuall out OBPs Torii, and Torri's advantage in SLG while profound, is likely to get smaller as Melky approaches his peak, and Torii gets further and futher away from his.
2007-10-31 12:50:47
188.   monkeypants
186 He won't be great, but he should improve a little--probably peaking in a couple of seasons.
2007-10-31 12:57:13
189.   Sarasota
New Joe should take #13.
2007-10-31 13:02:21
190.   Comrade Al
117 118 Too reminiscent of the Boston fans chanting "Yankees suck" at their parade.
2007-10-31 13:03:29
191.   Comrade Al
121 122 Didn't see. My bad.
2007-10-31 13:10:38
192.   Knuckles
There is every reason to believe that Cano will start the year cool then heat up.
2005 772 / 782
2006 792 / 1015
2007 741 / 953
Career 767 / 906
2007-10-31 13:19:21
193.   unpopster
Hunter or Andru? blach. I'd take Aaron Rowand in a New York Minute.
2007-10-31 13:32:31
194.   ms october
following up previous discussions about #13 and draft picks - pete has a post up that he spoke to cashman and the yanks will offer arbitration and will get the compensation draft picks

188 yeah - it think melky can improve some - i'm really hoping to see melky draw more walks, hit more doubles, and steal more bases

192 yes, seems to be an actual pattern

2007-10-31 13:39:12
195.   cult of basebaal
194 and play more consistent D in center, he took some weird ass routes to balls on occasion ...
2007-10-31 13:40:02
196.   OldYanksFan
How about "Anywhere else is unacceptable"
2007-10-31 13:42:51
197.   JL25and3
194 Melky actually walked less and struck out more this year than he did last year.
2007-10-31 13:44:45
198.   RIYank
It's true he didn't improve this year as expected. But I don't think that's a good reason to doubt he'll improve this year.

BP's 'most similar' player for him is Sixto Lezcano. That would be awesome -- his OPS+ jumped to 133 in his age 23 year.

2007-10-31 13:46:51
199.   RIYank
Uh, that 198 didn't make much sense. The first "this year" meant the one that just ended. The second one meant this coming one.
2007-10-31 13:50:10
200.   ms october
195 et al - yes, his routes could improve. i hope his walks down and strike outs up is a "sophomore slump" or something like that - not indicative of something else, but it might be and if so my hopes for melky will be greatly diminished
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-10-31 14:14:23
201.   nyy jim
I don't think Melky will have a good year with the Yankees because I think he will be traded, possibly as part of a big trade for Miguel Cabrera. Tori Hunter will be in Center field.
2007-10-31 14:18:30
202.   murphy
c'mon, cliff. please jump in and lash out about why torii hunter is a baaad idea.
2007-10-31 14:25:31
203.   ms october
201 melky could very well be gone - but it think #13 paved the way for torri hunter to texas
2007-10-31 14:29:19
204.   standuptriple
I've always like Rowand and wouldn't have a problem with them signing him to a reasonable deal. Great OF defense and high avg/obp. Works for the "new model".
2007-10-31 14:41:25
205.   murphy
rowand's career ops+ = 106.
2007-10-31 14:49:43
206.   Sarasota
203 and when Melky goes what happens to Cano? Those 2 are literally glued to the hip. I think Cano losing Melky and Bowa is an issue the Yanks would have to be concerned about.
2007-10-31 15:07:19
207.   YankeeInMichigan
192 Speaking of patterns, here's Melky (OPS):
2006 2007 Career
---- ---- ------
Apr xxxx .451 .451
May .786 .762 .774
June .609 .811 .708
July .833 .939 .850
Aug .850 .818 .834
Sept .679 .456 .564

Can we just keep his calendar pinned to July?

2007-10-31 15:10:33
208.   DadinIowa
Front: "Bronx Banter"
Back: "#Tough All Day for #27"
2007-10-31 15:26:36
209.   DadinIowa
Someone once did a comparison with GOB and Melky's numbers at ages 20, 21, 22, 23... and they were very, very similar. With Melky's much better defense, why is everyone so intent on trading him?

We need to KEEP our young guys (particularly those few who have shown they can play in the bigs).

The LAST thing we need to do is get older in the outfield.

I still think that beyond third base (and Andy Phillips might help there), the only major need is for the Yanks to help their middle relief (assuming Mo stays).

With NO new additions, with our young pitching, I think we have a fair chance at the playoffs again, AND to win the East. Boston has yet to prove that its pitching in '07 was less than a fluke than the White Sox, St. Louis, and Detroit years)

I'm optimistic.

2007-10-31 15:40:15
210.   Schteeve
204 I'm not sure I'd call .343 a High OBP.
2007-10-31 15:43:09
211.   Schteeve
210 Actually, I'm sure I would NOT call it high. Median OBP in 07 was about .355.
2007-10-31 15:45:06
212.   Schteeve
Here's how I see it, assuming Mo, Po, Pettitte and Abreu come back, and that we fill 3rd Base with a Morgan Ensberg-ish type dude, I think the Yanks win 89 games next year.
2007-10-31 15:45:38
213.   Schteeve
Maybe I need my own blog. That nobody will read. Again.
2007-10-31 15:51:52
214.   RIYank
I have no prediction for how many games they'll win. The prospects for Joba, Phil, IPK, have such a huge standard deviation. They could all be pretty good; or Phil could be awesome and the other two could struggle to throw six innings; or Joba could be a stud starter and Phil might struggle. Well, you get the idea.
2007-10-31 16:07:00
215.   Chyll Will
213 I got the hook-up! >;)
2007-10-31 16:33:24
216.   cult of basebaal
214 and then you've got the spectre of injuries ... as well as keeping inning count increases to an acceptable level of risk ...

also ... from MLBtraderumors:

The Padres will pass on available third basemen Alex Rodriguez and Miguel Cabrera. It sounds like a Padres team source is indicating the Marlins plan to shop Cabrera aggressively. As if this offseason wasn't going to be crazy enough, here's another marquee player on the market.

2007-10-31 16:48:31
217.   BklynBmr
Apologies if this has already been brought up, but let's 86 the link to Mr. Optober's web site from the sidebar, no?
2007-10-31 16:55:12
218.   ms october
217 you mean 134 it? good to see his nov 7th opt out deadline has been removed.
2007-10-31 17:38:08
219.   BklynBmr
218 Good call! ;-)

I like the high draft pick compensation, but read recently that won't apply if he signs with the Dodgers, whose picks are "protected". Not sure what that means...

2007-10-31 17:49:00
220.   ms october
219 my understanding is the top 15 picks are protected and the dodgers have the 15th pick - so i think if he goes to the dodgers the Yanks get their 2nd round pick (i'm not as sure about that last part)
2007-10-31 18:14:00
221.   RIYank
I think we'd get the Dodgers' second rounder, plus a sandwich pick. Since A-Rod will obviously be the #1 FA, the sandwich pick would be immediately after the first round.
2007-10-31 18:16:03
222.   yankz
151 That was me. Maybe it would be cheaper to go after Headley? He's already 23 (24 next May), and had a monster year at AA last year (1.017 OPS).
2007-10-31 18:23:13
223.   BklynBmr
220 Ah, thanks! That makes sense. What I'd love to see right about now is a good 'ole fashion case of collusion among owners, with him ending up in Japan. That would be sweet justice.
2007-10-31 18:23:23
224.   yankz
Man, I saw on the 4-letter network (it was in a restaurant...) some clips of Arod swinging as a Yankee. That was a kick in the nuts- his swing is pure magic.
2007-10-31 18:35:24
225.   yankz
Melky age 21: .280/.360/.391 OPS+ = 95
Age 22: .273/.327/.391 OPS+ =89

Bernie age 22: .238/.336/.350 OPS+ = 91
Age 23: .280/.354/.406 OPS+ = 113

The scary thing about Melky is that he didn't improve, at all. Exact same slugging and a much lower OBP. He's got to jump a very long way to be as good as Bernie was age 23.

2007-10-31 18:35:26
226.   51cq24
224 i guess they were regular season clips when he wasn't looking for a milestone hr
2007-10-31 18:37:39
227.   yankz
226 Yes...all 54 of his home runs came with nobody on in 10-0 games.
2007-10-31 18:38:35
228.   yankz
Also, how is Boston supposed to prove that its 07 pitching wasn't a fluke before 08???
2007-10-31 18:41:23
229.   ms october
225 wow - i knew melky's numbers were worse but not in basically everything - as i said earlier i really hope it is a "sophomore slump" but he has to put together much better abs this year

226 ha - beat me to it - i was going to say it must not have been a carmona slider in the dirt

2007-10-31 18:43:52
230.   ms october
* 229 - but there sure were a lot of times that he was about as locked in as you could be - oh well
2007-10-31 18:44:00
231.   51cq24
227 you're right. he even hit 4 postseason hrs for us!
2007-10-31 18:45:08
232.   51cq24
229 or a byrd "fastball" right down the middle
2007-10-31 18:47:40
233.   yankz
231 You people are ridiculous. I dislike Arod for the way he handled it. I'm not going to pretend like he sucks just to feel better about it.

Yanks don't sniff the playoffs without him. No way around that fact.

2007-10-31 18:52:52
234.   51cq24
233 i'm not disputing the fact that without his production we don't make the playoffs. i'm just pointing out how awful his approach has been in the playoffs ever since the 2004 collapse. and it isn't just about the small sample size numbers, it's about the way he swings the bat. the "pure magic" turns into wild swings.

if we had brought him back for $30 million/year, i would have been happy to have his production back in the middle of our lineup. but part of me would have been very uneasy thinking about the hitter he turns into in october.

2007-10-31 18:55:19
235.   yankz
234 I'll take Arod's .820 '07 ALDS OPS combined with his regular season numbers any time. Look at it this way: Without him, Wang never even gets the chance to shit the bed- twice.
2007-10-31 18:57:57
236.   yankz
FA rankings via Elias:
2007-10-31 19:00:35
237.   RIYank
In fact, A-Rod's career post-season OPS is .844. It's well below his regular season level, of course -- but against much better pitchers.
2007-10-31 19:02:05
238.   51cq24
235 not sure what wang has to do with this. was wang more responsible for the loss this year? yes. does that have anything to do with arod swinging and missing at 85 mph batting practice fastballs down the middle? no. again, it's about the sudden change in his swing. do you really not see how wild his swings become in the postseason?
2007-10-31 19:10:00
239.   RIYank
And just for comparison, Jeter's postseason OPS is .846. I wonder how many fans worry about the kind of hitter he turns into in October.
2007-10-31 19:10:40
240.   yankz
238 He had an .820 OPS this year in the playoffs. No, I don't think his swings were wild this year. Last year, yeah. He was definitely better this year. To the tune of an .820 OPS. Not his usual level of play, but everybody sucked this year. If you remember, nobody was hitting Carmona.
2007-10-31 19:15:08
241.   51cq24
237 all else being equal, i don't think anyone would argue that losing arod doesn't hurt our offense. but don't you think it's a little disingenuous to give that number and pretend that the difference is just that he's facing "much better pitchers" in the postseason? i don't want to psychoanalyze arod as many do, but the pressure of performing in the postseason clearly got to his head. his numbers were a little better this year, but his approach did not seem any better. he was not trying to just put the ball in play against carmona in the 9th inning of game 2, he was swinging as hard as he could, and ended up striking out on a pitch low and inside. he was also swinging as hard as he could at 85 mph fastballs down the middle of the plate from byrd, and ended up striking out again. this is not just something people made up because they hate arod. you just have to watch his at bats to see the clear change from the "pure magic" that absolutely is his regular season swing.
2007-10-31 19:17:40
242.   yankz
241 I "watched his at bats" too. I don't think anyone here is a hitting coach, so I default to the numbers (instead of an arbitrary opinion), which say he was not bad at all.
2007-10-31 19:18:05
243.   RIYank
241 but don't you think it's a little disingenuous to give that number and pretend that the difference is just that he's facing "much better pitchers" in the postseason?

No, of course it isn't disingenuous. I'm talking about results. I'm talking about how well the guy produces. You're talking about aesthetics, which don't really interest me.

Do you understand how OPS works? And do you understand that Jeter and A-Rod have equal career postseason batting?

2007-10-31 19:20:07
244.   51cq24
239 240 i'm not talking about jeter or wang or "everybody," i'm talking about arod alone. yes, carmona was nasty in game 2. yes, jeter had an awful series as did wang. the problem with arod is that he hasn't had a good postseason series since the 04 alds. and he has looked lost since then. you talk about the postseason being a small sample size but then you use the .820 ops as proof that he was actually good when so much of that is a result of a solo hr when the team was down 4 runs.
2007-10-31 19:22:02
245.   ms october
240 you're right - arod actually had the 3rd best playoffs behind cano (who probably doesn't deserve the suck label) and damon. arod had a few bad abs against carmona and byrd, and that stands out - not necessarily fair - but it's hard to forget those
2007-10-31 19:22:13
246.   Chyll Will
233 Let'm cry, Yankz. Perspective will take a while to set in, what with all the crap flying around in it's usual medium. Thanksgiving is coming in a few weeks, I think we should remember to breathe around that time.

Man I was out of it over the whole Torre affair, but a lot of sitting in a personal minivan waiting for Trump to do his thing gives you a lot of time to think. Trying to drive that minivan in midtown Manhattan traffic in broad daylight, well that forces you to think about what's really important. Here's what I've come up with:

- People are self-centered.
- People are stupid.
- If you hit a selfish, stupid person on Sixth Ave. crossing against the light, will anyone notice?
- I hate sports radio.
- Reality TV is not nearly as interesting as it may look.
- No one else will complain if A-Rod is on their team's roster in April.
- I need more money too.

Sleep on that, my friends. G'nite >;)

2007-10-31 19:24:29
247.   yankz
244 And you refer to one swing against Paul Byrd and another against Fausto Carmona, which didn't appeal to you because you didn't like the way it looked.

Fine, take away the home run, which accounts for the bulk of the slugging %. He still got on base 35% of the time, which is a lot more than practically everybody else.

I can't believe I'm defending him. I don't even like him. I feel like Ken Tremendous.

More importantly- he was the biggest reason the Yankees even got the chance to play in those postseasons. I'd rather make the tournament and lose than not make it at all.

2007-10-31 19:25:21
248.   yankz
246 "Perspective" is a great word. I have a feeling we'll be having a whole lot of it when we see Betemit and Mike Lamb platooning the hot corner next year.
2007-10-31 19:26:39
249.   RIYank
244 The point of the comparison with Jeter is that nobody, as far as I know, gets worried about how well Jeter is going to perform in October. Nobody says that. But you said it about A-Rod. Even though as a matter of demonstrable fact they perform equally well.

I do think the sample size is much too small when you look at one postseason. That's why I gave his career number. And Jeter's. I'm not drawing any conclusions based on a single postseason. I think that's a foolish thing to do.

2007-10-31 19:27:50
250.   ms october
248 i don't think there is enough perspective in the world for that scenario :}
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-10-31 19:34:31
251.   51cq24
i understand the point and i definitely agree that he was the biggest reason we got to the postseason. and i agree that it's better to get there than to not get there. but it isn't just one or two postseason at bats where he looks like a different hitter than his regular season self. it was basically every at bat last october, and a huge portion of all his at bats since game 4 of the alcs in 04. is it fair to just look at what he's done since then? maybe not. but to me, he has looked like a completely different hitter in the postseason since then. it's fine if you want to just look at the results, but some of us like to look at the results AND the process. he looks like a mental case in the postseason. i wish he didn't, and i don't know that he always would have. this postseason was certainly better than the last few, but certainly wasn't as good as the .820 ops makes it sound.
2007-10-31 19:34:44
252.   yankz
Whoa, Nieves got his OPS+ up to a whopping 10 last year! I thought he'd forever be mired in the negatives.
2007-10-31 19:35:51
253.   Chyll Will
248 You know what to expect, but you don't know what you'll actually get. >;)
2007-10-31 19:45:39
254.   yankz
216 The Padres are in the market for a 3B?
2007-10-31 19:52:18
255.   Chyll Will
252 See? 253 Zzzzz...
2007-10-31 20:01:04
256.   yankz
Man, what's with everyone going to sleep early lately? :(
2007-10-31 20:01:18
257.   yankz
255 I thought you were asleep 246
2007-10-31 20:02:06
258.   Shaun P
225 If you go back and compare the beginnings of their careers . . .

By the time Bernie was entering his second full year in the bigs (1994, age 25) - when his OPS+ began its ascent for the next 8 years - he'd averaged 153 G and 606 ABs the three previous seasons. In other words, Bernie was already used to playing a typical big league season.

I don't think Melky is used to a 162 game, 600AB year yet. Entering this year (his second full season in the bigs), he averaged just 142 G and 544 AB over the last 3 years.

I think by mid-August, he was tired, and that's why he slumped so badly at the end. He'll get used to a full season soon, and when he does, the improvement will come and stay.

Melky in 2006: .280/.360/.391
Melky through 8/15/07: .297/.350/.444
Melky after 8/15/07: .212/.267/.252

2007-10-31 20:04:32
259.   Shaun P
256 I'm still up, yankz, though I'm supposed to be doing work. Obviously, I'm not. =)
2007-10-31 20:08:38
260.   yankz
258 Sure, but that doesn't explain why Melky regressed. He had already played a full season. before.

I hope you're right. I think Melky can be a bit above league average for many years to come. But I'm definitely not expecting him to be the next Bernie (offensively), who was a borderline HOF player for a long time.

2007-10-31 20:18:12
261.   Shaun P
260 Yes, but just one. 2006 (his first full year in the bigs) was the first time Melky played anything close to a typical big league season. Bernie did it in 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1993 (his first full year in the bigs). I really think those 2-3 "extra" years of near full season development time helped Bernie.

I'm not saying the Yanks should demote Melky - and I don't think he'll be the next Bernie either. But I think there's a reasonable explanation for why his numbers regressed - he was tired - so I wouldn't give up on him just yet.

2007-10-31 20:19:29
262.   yankz
198 From 116 the year before.

Wow, I sound like the Anti-Melk. I just don't think he'll ever be a 130 OPS+ guy. I hope to come back to this thread in a year and eat my words.

2007-10-31 20:24:03
263.   yankz
Also: Neyer definitely got "Steinbrothers " from this board.
2007-10-31 20:27:36
264.   yankz
Photoshop geniuses on this thread: Is there any way you can make an Arod HOF plaque with this on his head:

2007-10-31 20:28:11
265.   yankz
Here's just the insignia:
2007-10-31 21:04:16
266.   yankz
Fine, I guess I'll go. But I had to share this, from "the Frog" over at RLYW, because it is awesome:

"But if Arod stays in NY, it'll ruin my dream scenario, in which . . .

Torre's Dodgers, with A-Rod playing 3b, face off against Girardi's Yankees in the World Series. Despite A-Rod's valiant, clutch, post-season heroics, the Yankees prevail, as Series MVP Wilson Betemit hits a three-run HR in the 8th inning off an obviously exhausted Scott Proctor. "

2007-10-31 21:09:05
267.   Shaun P
266 If Joe Torre were to lead the Dodgers to the Serious, I don't know if Proctor's arm would make it that far.

Still, that's a damn decent revenge scenario, if that's your kind of thing.

Random flashback - 6 years ago, not much later than it is right now (maybe even a little before the time I'm typing this), Mr. November was born.

I will never forget that moment as long as I live.

2007-11-01 02:04:24
268.   thelarmis
256 hey yankz, it's 5am and i'm still up! and mlb couldn't suspend me for anything 'coz i'm pretty straight edge!

i had to deal with some crap tonight wearing a long-sleeved Yankees shirt, but i took care of it without having to get into sabermetrics. i fear saturday night might be a tad more difficult...

2007-11-01 03:12:32
269.   JL25and3
252 At that point, shouldn't it be called OPS-?
2007-11-01 04:11:38
270.   OldYanksFan
Did we vote yet on the official BB Tee shirt slogan?
2007-11-01 06:23:41
271.   Jersey
What were the choices?

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