ok, last in the 800-post thread, I'll be first here: question for ya, Cliff (and Alex):

leaving aside all the rhetoric and hurt feelings, and focusing on $ and team needs, do you guys really think there isn't still a significant chance the Yanks sign A-Rod?

I'd make them co-favorites myself....

1 No way. The guy didn't even try to negotiate. There's no way he comes back. None.

What's the co-favorites thing?

0 There is almost no way short of a blockbuster trade that the Yankees can expect big time production out of 3B. But one would think that they could find someone who can thump at ONE of the corners and/or DH. The problem is that they have a logjam at the "just move X to 1B/DH" position.

I wonder if the best strategy would be to trade one of Damon/Matsui/Giambi (eating a thick slab of contract, of course). I would probably try to move Damon or Matsui, and hope to sign a 1B/DH to rotate with Giambi. As it stands, the two OFs are redundant and starting one at DH hamstrings the lineup.

The only other option, I guess, is that Damon actually works out some and convinces that he can actually play CF. Then (I guess) Melky becomes more expendable trade bait.

2 You are most certainly correct, but I still don't understand why the Yankees don't make him the same offer they would have made, minus what Texas would have paid.

Also, is it precisely true that he did not try to negotiate? Or is the decision to opt out part of negotiation?

3 Well, there's Lowell. He'll miss Fenway, but the man can hit, and he can play a mean hot corner, too. Of course, unless the Sox go hard after Rodriguez, Lowell will likely just re-up there.

That said, I have a theory that Rodriguez refusal to negotiate is his giving back to the Yankees and their fans for 2006, and that the ultimate goal would be to go to Boston and rub it in the fans faces. I mean, really, could there be a more painful baseball image for Yankee fans than Alex Rodriguez hoisting the championship trophy wearing a Red Sox uniform?

5 That image wouldn't be painful. It would be absurd to the point of surreal. It would be like something from Pro Wrestling.

I'm finding a hard time caring lately. I think my "fandom" is on its deathbed. I can't bring myself to care about all the egos and posturing involved in this.

4 The Yankees have said consistently that they would not make an offer if he opted out. Cashman said it. Hank backed him up and was every bit as adamant about it. That's an awfully big bluff to call, if that's what he thinks he's doing. He had another ten days before he had to opt out, but he did it on the first possible day, and Boras informed the team via voicemail. That sends a pretty clear message. He's gone. It's over.

6 Actually, the 2008 Yankees could be the solution to all of that. Young scrappy manager, a more home-grown team, the big egos are leaving.

5 Ah, it perhaps comes full circle. Knowing the recent luck, the Yankees would sign Lowell, who would go into an immediate physical collapse. Then they could have the honor of paying him for the very beginning and end of his career, but missing out on the productive middle (and two championships! For what it's worth, I always saw Lowell as th eone that got away from that crop of prospects; I always wanted them keep Lowell and let Brosius go--oh well, it worked out at the time). Meanwhile, A-Rod would essentially replace Manny, perhaps bringing more hardware to Boston.

Ha-ha..there is delicious albeit painful irony in that!

ESPN News got Pete Abe on the horn and said that the Dodgers actually wanted Girardi (Dodgers GM Ned Colletti worked for the Cubs while Girardi was working his way to the majors with the organization), but turned to Torre after the Yankees offered Girardi their job. You know, just to make things even more twisted.

10 That is, Pete said that.

I hate to say it but if things keep falling in place the way it looks I might be more of an LA Dodgers fan next year. All the people I loved to watch on the Yankees look like they're going to end up there. While being a long time Yankee fan isn't going to extinguish in one year I'm not going to feel that bad to have a Torre led Dodgers with Arod and who knows, maybe with Mo taking the world series and stuffing it up Randy Levine and Hank Steinbrenner's fkn ass. Also I think the dodgers are on radio here in Arizona though I never listen to them.

12 If you would root for the crazy house that is the Dodger organization because they added former Yankee coaches and A-Rod--just to spite the Yankees' owners--well, I wonder just what sort of 'longtime' Yankee fandom you actually possess. Still, if it makes you feel better, more power to ya.

5 A-Rod hoisting the trophy in Beantown? I can't see happening, by any stretch. In my Parcells-esque outlook on things, A-Rod reversed The Curse. The best thing that could possibly happen would be for him to sign with Boston. Which would make the world right again.

But that probably won't happen. My guess is he lands in SF. A football town with a toothless sports media, a club with Bonds* money to throw around, and an attendance ratio of maybe 70% there to 'experience' the ballpark, versus 30% hardcore fans. Perfect cover for such a stand up guy like A-Rod.

Hidden bonus: Torre will be reunited with Scott Proctor.

David Wells, however, is a free agent.

12 Knock yerself out:

https://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/

12
Trust me. You don't want to do go there.

But you will get to see the Colorado Rockies and Arizona Diamondbacks more!

17
See, out here, we put in extraneous auxiliary verbs.

13 I think 40 years is a pretty long time and that includes all the time I grew up in Queens and had no interest in the Mets. But people do make a big difference to me. The face of the Yankees is currently Randy Levine and Hal Steinbrenner. Their viciousness and complete ineptitude has nuked this team. People like to focus on Alex because he's an easy target but what about the real problem. Torre being fired in a bullshit way has put all the FA's from Mo down in severe jeopardy. Does Arod have ulterior motives then what he says. I don't know, I'm not a mind reader but the reason given is what I thought would happen if Torre is canned and even far more so with the trashy way they handled it. All you had to do was listen to Mo when Torre got fired. He and others suddenly indicated with what I suspect is controlled anger that they were now going to be true Fa's. These people don't like the idea of dealing with the crap management that's running things now. This is a baseball game and don't believe I was born to say Yankees right or wrong. At least until some time has passed and I don't hate the new management as much.

17 I knew a guy in college who did go. I don't think he would have fit in very well with the DT crowd.

19 Rivera and Posada said they were going to test the market before the Torre thing went down. I don't disagree with you that the Torre thing has likely not endeared them to the team, but they were "true FAs" before that.

The good news is that the Dodgers don't need a catcher.

19 OK, Torre was not fired, but that is a long dead horse.

My point is that, in your formulation, "all of the people" you liked to watch are going to the Dodgers. In your formulation, that would seem to include Torre, Mattingly, (possibly) A-Rod, and (possibly) Mo. I conclude, therefore, that you watched the Yankees only because of these two players and two coaches, and not to see Jeter, Cano, Melky, Joba, Hughes, Matsui, and so forth.

I find that a weird sort of fandom. Or, perhaps the rhetoric is just a bit overwrought as you work through your hatred of the management.

re "perhaps the rhetoric is just a bit overwrought as you work through your hatred of the management."

Of course it is. I'm pissed off and I'm making a point.

22 That second thing you said. No need to bait him.

19 Moreover, the Yankees' "my way or the highway" attitude has been around a long time--whether it is a good attitude is another story--and as a long time fan yourself, surely you know this. Consider DiMaggio's failed hold out (which earned him boos at Yankee Stadium).

24 Fair enough. It's late and I'm cranky, but that's no excuse to poison the well. Apologies for 25 as well.

The Torre story on SI.com says Torre's interesting in bringing Kevin Long to the Dodgers as well.

27 I know this tidbit fits into the overall story of Torre's departure leading to a coaching (and player?) exodus. Long seemed to be a pretty good coach, but what is you opinion of his impact on the team. I thought he brought in to placate A-Rod, but he's gone so that's no longer a factor. Cano seemed to improve his approach at the plate, but did anyone else seem to benefit in particular from Long's hitting instruction? Maybe Posada credited him?

2 the co-favorites thing is, let's say, Yanks, Dodgers, Angels 25% each, field 25%......I just don't take all this tough rhetoric as seriously as you guys. lots of other folks don't either [read some of the interminable BTF threads]. but maybe you're right. we'll see....

oh, and, again for what it's worth, I think your Red Sox in-your-face theory in 5 is pretty crazy--I mean go reread your last sentence: "I mean, really, could there be a more painful baseball image for Yankee fans than Alex Rodriguez hoisting the championship trophy wearing a Red Sox uniform?"

of course there couldn't be. & that's why you're imagining it. it's an entirely understandable Yankee fan doom fantasy; I've shared it once or twice--but c'mon, the players don't give a damn about this media Sox vs Yanks circlejerk....

28 My take on the offense's performance can be found here:

https://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/archives/840338.html

Consider how many hitters made big improvements as the season went on and mix in Alex Rodriguez having perhaps the best season in one of the greatest careers in baseball history and, yeah, I'd say Kevin Long was good at his job.

29 Ah, see I wrote "theory" when I should have written "conspiracy theory" or "nightmare." I fully acknowledge that it's crazy in terms of the motivation involved, but as far as the possibility of that scene actually occurring, I don't think it's all that far fetched.

30 A classic "if he gets credit for the improvement, does he get credit for the slow start" problem! But seriously, points well taken. I had forgotten about the season review--a great (re)read and a reminder of happier times.

The truth is what's probably going to happen is I'll follow the Yankees but I'm unlikely to watch or hear virtually every game anymore. The problem is once you nuke a team and leave everyone with bad feelings for the management they have to negotiate with, it's not like you can put humpty dumpty back together again. Maybe others don't agree but I think it's become ridiculous to try to judge managers based on PS play. Steinbrenner has unwillingly spread too much money around to other teams with revenue sharing and luxury tax and whatever. As far as one series especially a 5 game series what happened this year?. Your number one pitcher was terrible for whatever reason and none you can pin on Torre. Your relief phenom Joba gets a swarm of bugs on his head and blows a crucial game. That's it and I think only an idiot could say that was totally under Torre's control. The players know what happened. And before that Torre was at the helm of an enormous recovery to get into the PS. Then when you have players who have it ingrained that a pay cut it a sign of disrespect, and they watch the manager most of whom thought he was the best manager they ever played for get disrespected in an asinine mickey mouse way by a bunch of clueless morons, that doesn't exactly make for sucess heading into a bunch FA eligibility. So I'm sorry, if I'm not anxious to jump in front of a train for this bunch that's the way it is.

One final thought/question, then I have to get some sleep!! Assuming "it's over" 0 , I wonder how much the A-Rod opt out caught the Yankees by surprise? If they saw it coming, then presumably they had some plan(s) in place. The first order of business will be Girardi; then it will be interesting to see how the team proceeds.

32 I thought much the same way when Showalter was fired essentially because Scott Kamieniecki blew a five run lead, and the team hired > Joe Torre. But in the end, that worked out OK. The team is in transition, and it will likely be painful. It will be more painful if Jorge and Mo move on to greener pastures. But this too shall pass. Right now I feel quite the opposite as you do: with a gaggle of young players and new coaching staff and the impending liberation from onerous contracts, I am the most excited (with trepidation, of course) about the upcoming season than I have been in a long time. But then, we all respond to sport differently, and perhaps therein lies its power, drama, and majesty.

32 While I am upset to see the team in transition I will still watch or listen to 95% of the games. I'm 22, I grew up with torre, posada, pettite, jeter, rivera etc... The 1st year I really remember well is the strike shortened '94 campaign. With that said my loyalty lies with the 'NY' on the cap not the management or even the players (even though I love being loyal to the players, i was pissed when we got rid of tino, but that was prob for the best.) This offseason hurts, the Bosox win and losing torre and mattingly and possibly po, mo and pettite is like my childhood dying. With that said the Cashman will piece something competitive together. We have talented youth for the 1st time since 94-95-96. This team has future, this is just a new beginning. While i am pissed liek every one else, I am sick of the negativity.

i wonder how negative everyone would be had the indians been able to win one of the last 3 games of the lcs.

TORRE
torre was not fired. he chose not to accept a $5 million contract because he wanted 2 years and the yankees were only willing to give him 1. perhaps eventually people can start thinking rationally about this and stop with the absurd "insult" rhetoric. if he goes on to the dodgers, good for him. we ended up with a younger and better manager. and give me a break about how important he was for the team's comeback since june. he wasn't out with prostate cancer at the beginning of this season. he was there, making crazy decisions all the way.

AROD
yes, this is a big blow. you can't say enough about what he did for our offense and defense (except for 2006). that said, he is still just one player. he can't be replaced by any one player, but the team can make better use of all that money than on him alone. and, honestly, aren't you happy to be rid of him? he's maybe the best player of all time, but i can't stand him. and i think a lot of the other players would agree. and the idea that he opted out because of how the team handled torre is absurd. torre who batted him 8th last year and then collaborated on the verducci article? yes, i'm sure arod got over that very quickly.

MO AND JORGE
if any of these 2 leave, particularly mo, i'll be very upset. but they haven't. the front office understandably decided to install a new manager before anything else. arod decided not to wait, for whatever reason. but mo and jorge are not "twisting in the wind" right now. this is the normal process that happens when players are free agents. bernie williams didn't re-sign until the day before thanksgiving in 1998, and that was right in the middle of his prime years. so everyone calm down a little bit about mo and jorge. in all likelihood, they will be back. just have a little patience.

PETTITTE
i believe he has said that he will either pitch for the yankees next year or retire. i don't see him breaking that promise. you could tell he loved to be back in ny last season, and i don't think he's going to leave again. is he suddenly so devoted to torre that he can't stay? that seems very unlikely.

I get NESC and watch a lot of games while also watching the Yankees on MLB.TV. Lowell is a decent guy and a very good player. But he did have a relationship with the 'Green Monster' that would translate to deep/warning track flies in Yankee Stadium.

His 2007 splits are interesting. He has the SAME # of XBHs both home and away, but his OPS is a whopping .226 higher in Fenway. One would have to think, as a relatively slow runner, that he pops a lot of singles of the Monster.

Year Home Away
2006 .763 .866 (+.103)
2007 .993 .767 (-.226)
Lowell's a good glove and a good guy, but if we bring him in, we will be deceived if we expect offense anywhere near his Red Sox production. To me, he looks like AT BEST, an .800 OPS guy in Yankee stadium.

Given that he should command both big dollars and years on the FA market, I think he looks to be the wrong guy for us, unless we are happy with above average D and a .780 OPS.

36

TORRE
Wow, I've never seen anyone do CPR on a horse!

AROD
"the team can make better use of all that money than on him alone."
Good. How? What/whom should we spend it on?

MO and JORGE
I'll be surprised if they don't sign. It's almost guaranteed that Cashman will offer more than the competition, right?

PETTITTE
I have no idea. It might depend on whether he thinks the team has a good chance to win.

37 "... above average D and a .780 OPS."
Which, as it happens, describes Wilson Betemit's career to a T.

Like (almost) everyone else, I'm sorry to see Rodriguez' production go. But I don't think the answer is to go out and make a big splash in the FA market or blockbuster trade. It was that kind of thinking that turned the 1998 Yankees into the 2007 Yankees - a collection of superstars rather than a baseball team. The Yanks should take the $ they would have spent on Rodriguez and use it to keep the starting pitching they're developing and keep getting more down the road. Starting pitching was the key to their success in the 1990s. They had Brosius playing 3B.

Why is ARod going to the Sox far fetched? They badly need some consistancy at SS, and ARod might destroy all kinds of records at Fenway. Boston has the money, the desire to improve and compete, and wouldn't mind sticking it to the Yankees in the process.

ARod was almost a Red Sox once. They still want him. 2008 is Manny's last year. Thats $20m. They can ditch Coco $3.8m +/-)... Ellsbury is the real deal. Schrill is probably done ($13m). The iimediate $$ is certainly not an issue for Boston.

I think the Sox are the favorites to get ARod. And ARod will NOT go for the highest bid. He will go where he WANTS to play, which will be a combo of chances for the PS and personal comfort for him and wifey.

And really... what better way to respond to the 'Ruth deal' then talking about the 'ARod deal'.

This could even be Boras' strategy. Crow, humble pie, shit... you name it. Cashman will have to eat it to keep ARod from going to the Sox. ARod could help keep Boston ahead of us for a decade.

38 yes i know the torre story is a dead horse, but many people continue to talk about it in "insult" terms and even blame arod leaving on the way the team handled torre. so what are we supposed to do, ignore that ignorance?

as for arod, i don't know what to spend the money on, but the answer to "how?" is wisely.

Is any body here old enough to remember the eighties and how piss poor our favorite team was run? Six weeks ago there was nothing but positive comments over the young pitching and the bright future of the franchise and now there is all this hand wringing over Torre and Rodriquez and how that might impact the ability to keep Posada, Rivera and Pettitte. Granted I would hate to see any of those 3 leave now, but they are all approaching their expiration dates. 4 years at 15M per might mean 2 or 3 years of really bad contracts. I don't care about the money except for how it keeps from improving an obvious need, see: 1st base/Giambi. Now that they don't have the offense from third base that is really going to hurt. The point is, obvious mistakes aside, Cashman has managed an organization with a view of the future that allows for flexibility and the resources suggest they are always going to be competitive. And those obvious mistakes were basically all decisions on pitchers which I believe says more about the dearth of available pitching than his ability to see value. The solution for that is in place, and we began to see the fruits this past year. Whether we like it or not all of our loved players need to be replaced sooner or later and I would rather suffer the loss early than watch them all go out like Bernie, who went from being my favorite to I can't stand seeing him in the line up.

41
If you think A-Rod will not go for the highest bid, you've got another thing coming. And if he couldn't hack NY, why in the hell would he decide Boston is the best environment for him? If he's hitting .250 in May, all he'd hear is that the Sox managed to win 2 WS without him, he's a bum, what's he doing here, etc.

40 "They had Brosius playing 3B."

I like your sentiment, but this refrain has to be put to sleep. Yes, they had Brosius at 3B...and Jeter, Williams, and Posada in their primes at SS, CF, and C...and some hired guns as pitchers...and a hired gun superstar at 2B. We need to stop romanticizing the dynasty teams as a bunch of lunchbox players and no superstars.

Does anyone know why the Girardi-Posada relationship is supposedly strained? I suppose there could be some tension since they both were sharing the same job during the glory years, but everything I heard back then was that Girardi was mentoring him and did a great job of it.

As far as A-Rod, I just can't get upset with the team for not wanting to offer more than they were prepared to. As great as he is, he wants way too much for way too long. And I don't think getting booed in 2006, losing Torre, or anything the Steinbrothers have done or said have anything to do with it.

There has been tampering in the A-Rod case. Had to have been, for Alex/Boras to opt out so quickly. But, I think they will continue to try and leverage the Yankees (see the article in today's Post.) As such, Cashman should stop commenting on A-Rod and begin looking for next year's 3B. See how high Moreno will go if he knows he's not bidding against the Yankees- Boras will be very disappointed, and quietly, quietly present the same offer they were going to, less the Rangers $21M at some point late in the game.

Dianagramr, if you read this thread, I have an absolute refutation of what you said in an earlier thread. It's from John Heyman:

The Red Sox disproved the old "crapshoot'' theory espoused by a lot of folks who keep losing in the playoffs.

tinyurl.com/2kkup8

Yes! The Sox disproved the "crapshoot" theory by winning! As it happens, I disproved the old "crapshoot" theory of craps last weekend. Finally that old myth has been laid to rest.

In 47 I mean that Cash should quietly make that offer, not that Boras would do so...

49 Right.
And then Alex would come back to the Yankees, and... live happily ever after... hmmmm.

Still, I don't really disagree with the spirit of what you're saying.

34 Showalter did not have a core of players and coaches extremely personally attached. I won't mention a decade of winning. The analogy doesn't fit. The FA issues alone (Mo and Po being important lifetime Yankees and still quality players... not to mention ARod) make Torregate unique.

1) Torre
2) Donnie
3) ARod
4) Bowa
and counting. Its hard to see Pettitte coming back. This is a deeply spiritual man, and I don't think he likes the 'spirit' of DARY. If Mo or Po leaves, Andy is definitely gone.

There are Torre and now ARod 'haters' here, who are just so thrilled to see these guys gone, that they ignor all the points Marc makes, and the physical 'deconstruction' happening as we speak.

Cashman will try to build the 'physical' team back up to contention, but our spirit is deeply wounded, if not gone. The Yankees needed some change, but it would have been nice if the Yankees controlled the pace and magnitude of the change, as opposed to the change controlling the Yankees.

We are in pure Salvage mode. For some players, for many fans, for a place in the PS. While it is possible that Girardi may ultimate be as good or better then Torre... at what cost?

However... time heals all wounds. The real question is what impact the FO (DARY, or as Yankees Chick calls them: Stein and the Steinettes) will have on this team's future. Are they savy baseball people, or at least smart enough to hire and listen to savy baseball people? Do we have 2 spoiled kids who have both professed to have little interest in baseball now in control of Daddy's toy? Will corporate thinking of profit at all costs (the Yankees have 'lost' money the last 3 years) change how we compete?

How could ARod NOT have some concerns about the Yankees FO? How could anyone here not have serious concerns about the Yankees FO?

45 i can't speak for anyone else, but i think the idea is that we seem to have forgotten that we don't need a superstar of alex's caliber, we just need great players all around. that isn't to say that we have the 98 team without him. but hopefully we can assemble a team of guys who make contact and get on base 1-9. we already have a lot of pieces, but there's obviously work to be done. hopefully cashman will be creative and look for young position players if he's going to trade any of our young pitchers.

and i think calling knoblauch a superstar is a bit of a stretch. he was a star in minnesota, but not a superstar.

46 Read this:
http://tinyurl.com/2axb5d

Who know what to make of this really.

47 If Alex signs with someone else on the 13th I think tampering will defenitely be a concern. But I wonder if there was in fact something go on - if Boras will be able to help himself and hold off on the announcement for a little while to guard against tampering accusations in light of the JD Drew accusations last year and the fact that the Yanks will be much more likely to look into tampering than the Dodgers were last year.

51 It's been a while, but allow me to re-emerge from the woodwork to reiterate a point:

Two coaches. Two (maybe three) players, one of whom many fans never considered a "True Yankee (TM)" and therefore could not possibly have made up the spirit of the Yankees. That's what you're basing this whole deconstruction thing on?

Robinson Cano
Derek Jeter
Bobby Abreu
Hideki Matsui
Johnny Damon
Joba Chamberlain
Chien-Ming Wang
Phil Hughes
Ian Patrick Kennedy
Ross Ohlendorf

Coming Soon:
Austin Jackson
Jose Tabata
Brett Gardner
Humberto Sanchez
James Brent Cox

I think there's quite a bit of spirit to root for in those guys, no? Or are many fans just intent on running around screaming about how the sky is falling? In that case, Chicken Little, I'll return to the woodwork.

51 I share your (and a lot of fans', I'm sure) concerns about the FO. The only rational comment to come out of the FO in the last 2 weeks was Cash's classy response to Rodriguez' departure. A lot of the "sky-is-falling" talk about the on-field team seems a bit premature to me. But the big question is about the philosophy of the FO from here on out. I, for one, will hope that all the others follow Cashman's lead.

51 is savy like dary? sory that's rude.

51 No analogy works perfectly, but I contend that mine holds up in the large. OK, no decade of winning, but four years of winning (or at least improvement) after five years of debacle. I can't comment on how personally devoted players were or were not to Showalter.

The main point is that when Showalter was fired and Torre, whom everyone saw as a nothing, was hired, I heard the same doom and gloom. But it din't work out that way--and it didn;t work out that way mainly because the organization put a lot of good young players on the field. Matbe Torre contributed a lot to the atmosphere, but I have an easier time evaluating Jeter's 1999 production than figuring out how many "Torre wins" or "Torre losses" there were. If Torre had this hold of the "spirit" of the team, then to honest, I would be pretty worried. Cult of personality is dangerous foundation for an organization--on the one hand it brings great loyalty, on the other hand it also brings conservatism, an adversion to change, and Bernie Williams' corpse getting hundreds of ABs.

Indded, you cite the wounded "spirit" of the team. Again, this is pretty much unverifiable. Frankly, I have no idea how to respond to the questions you post because they frame a mostly irrational discourse, in my opinion.

Call it Salvage Mode if you like. Call me a company man, too. But for the first time in a very long time I am excited by the prospect of young players on the roster and a new coaching staff (and perhaps some new approaches) to the game on the field.

I don't think the team is now awful. But to me the question is this. We've just lost the best player in baseball, who was coming off his best season. If we don't replace his production, we lose a lot more games than last year.

How do we replace that production? Saving all that money is only, well, money saved for the Steinbrenners, unless something useful to the team can be done with it. And frankly I don't see a lot of free agents out there worth spending money on.

Eric Gagne, anyone?

44 In 2007, ARod seemed to 'hack NY' reasonably well. Read this years entire BB blog. He was basically loved and respected HERE, and the majority wanted him back... even at a nutso salary.

ARod offered to take less pay already to be on the Sox. He gave up SS to be on the Yankees, and have a great shot at winning. If you want to focus on Tom Hicks OUTRAGEOUS offer, that was literally historical, and the fact that a 25 year old ARod was swayed by it, knock yourself out. But everything ARod has done since, show, like almost ALL players later in their careers, the winning is more important then $$.

When you consider ARods worth, going to the highest bidder as opposed to going where he WANTS, would be like you doing the same thing for an extra $100/yr.

Lastly, the Yankees are the team who would have paid ARod the most. They had Hicks paying almost $4m/yr of his contract. If ARod was purely about the money, they would be finalizing his contract with the Yankees right now.

"and i think calling knoblauch a superstar is a bit of a stretch. he was a star in minnesota, but not a superstar."

Except when the Yankees got him from the Twins in a "salary dump," there was the typical hew and cry about "an all star at every position" and how the Yankees were "unfair."

They didn't have an A-Rod--how many teams ever do have the best player in the league? But they did have some of the very top players at their position at multiple positions.

54 By the way, I forgot Melky. I blame the fact that I was unable to eat my usual breakfast this morning (Honey Nut Cheerios). You see, I was out of milk...

Also, what if Walt Jocketty called Brian Cashman tomorrow and asked for Melky Cabrera and Ian Kennedy for Albert Pujols? I'm sure all these "team is better without superstars" fans would never make that trade!

Making the team worse (by having inferior players) makes the team worse. End of story.

What's with all the wailing and gnashing of teeth and rending of garments this morning? I like Torre and thought he was a good fit for the team, but maybe a shake up is what's needed. Girardi can be a very fine manager, my only concern is him dealing with the owners & the media.

The A-Rod thing is a big blow, production-wise, but I don't see the team stumbling out of the gate next year due to every pitcher & his brother going down with injuries. I think the team will be fine with a replacement level guy.

Jorgie & Mo will be back -- Yankees now have the cash to pay them. Pettitte? I'm not so sure, but he was healthy & now gets to play mentor. I doubt Roger's coming back -- he can't even pitch half a season anymore. So that's more money saved.

And without have to massage Alex's ego, the Yankees can get rid of Minky!!

51 Torre left, his coaches are going with him. That's how it happens. It's a not a reflection on this sentiment that the Yankees are a sinking ship.

Everything points to the fact that Cashman is in charge of strategy (note: Joba was not traded to the Rangers for Gagne, he was not abused down the stretch, IPK was shut down for the season when he felt some back pain despite a stellar debut, etc.). The front office is fine. And frankly, if Posada and Rivera are going to be miffed about Torre leaving then fine. They have to go sooner or later. Rivera is a 38 year old reliever and Posada is a 35 year old catcher coming off of an abnormal year. Take away the nostalgia and misty-eyes and try convincing yourself that the best money the Yankees can spend is on two guys at the end of their careers.

I would personally love to have Posada, Rivera, and Pettitte back, and I'm not against over-spending slightly, but I'm a Yankee fan first and I'm pretty damn excited about the future. I've been getting tired of watching a team crammed with superstars scuffling about hitting weak grounders to second (only to abuse some lowly AAA pitcher from Tampa Bay a week later).

So the Yankees are undergoing a change. Big deal, it happens.

Here's what I see happening:

Arod to Red Sox as a SS (Boston unloads Lugo and eats salary).

Mike Lowell stays in Boston.

Papi, Manny, Arod, Lowell in the lineup

This could be a really ugly year. Don't forget, Mrs. Arod is originally from Lowell, MA, and I doubt Alex's ego will let him admit to himself that he can't handle the pressure of Boston. Plus, Boston's on a bit of a title roll (2 in 4 years), he's got more consistent protection in front and behind him in the lineup, he gets back to SS, and he gets to stick it to the Yanks fans (if he's that kind of person).

61 It's A-Rod's fault.
62 I'd make that trade in a heartbeat, if I were the Yankees.

47 Very, VERY good thinking. I believe Boras is testing the Market, but believes the Yankees are his 'escape route' if he has underestimated.

You are right. Cashman should heat up the wires, and make sure the press reports 'talks with the Yankees' on every above average 3rd baseman in the game.

Smart Dude. Now you are thinking Cashman style.

Its a tough call. I can't see anyone going 8/$240. But PS dollars IS a lot of money, and ARod could be the difference for some teams, especially the Angels. In some ways, no player is worth $30m... but the truth is they are, if they are the 'straw' that drives a team to a few Post Seasons.

60 like i said, star. all, but not super. no one doesn't want the yankees to have some of the top players at each position. we already have that at ss, 2b, and hopefully catcher, even if 2 of those are getting older. but the idea is that we don't NEED arod to be competitive. we just need to improve at other positions.

68 Fair enough.

Personally, I would love to see 1B/DH improved, rather than used as an infirmary for aging players. One would think that Cashman could find someone who can hit a little to stick at 1B.

58 Not having a blown up offense win games can be off set by having better pitching and defense. The Yankees with IPK, Joba, Phil, and Wang, but without A-Rod will still be formidable. The Yankees without A-Rod and using a mix of AAA & AA kids not ready for the big stage would be tough to watch.

63 Agreed. I hope Clemens calls it a career, the circus he brings with him isn't worth the mediocre pitching. It'll be a semi-interesting off-season, but I don't think it will be filled with blockbusters.

15 Yep, and we'll know the deal is close to being finalized when we see Scottie Proctor getting up in the bullpen. He's probably starting to stretch as we're typing here.

53 Good find. I see no issues at all. Jorge will be making $14m/yr with talk of HOF while Girardi makes $2m/yr. And Jorge might realize that a lot of his longevity was due to his taking the catchers position late in his career, and needing to 'wait his turn' after Girardi. I think they will have a FINE relationship.

70 I don't ant to see Clemens stop pitching, I just don't want to see him in the AL. Let his hamstring heal, then go back to the NL for one or two more half seasons, and maybe catch Warren Spahn on the wins list.

Just wanted to point out that the news that Cliff credited PeteAbe with breaking was actually reported several hours earlier by Michael Kay.

72 we agree for the first time in weeks.

I'm not worried about coaches. I'm not convinced they really do all that much.

I'm far more concerned about players (Posada, Mo).

But I'm excited for next year. We have good, young pitching to watch!

72 Yeah - me neither. They are both strong personalities, but I think they both respect each other very much.

73 He's probably more worried about Maddux catching him.

77 Good point about Maddux! It's interesting, at the same time we hear how there will never be another 300 game winner, we have two active pitchers climbing way up the wins list. If Maddux can stay healthy for one or two more real seasons, he has a real shot at Christy Mathewson--I thought no one would ever get to those numbers again.

In my youth I rooted for both the Yankees and Mets and I remember the 1967 season when they brought up Tom Seaver and Cleon Jones. They only won 65 or so games that year but Seaver was Rookie of the Year. In 1968 they still finished 9th out of 10 teams but they added Jerry Koosman and Tommy Agee. Then came 1969 and they had the best record in the National League and won the World Series.
The teams that have been fielding Championship quality teams recently have been following this same pattern. Find young talented pitchers and build around them. The Yankee dynasty of 1996-2003 is basically over. I don't mind rebuilding for a couple of years, especially with Girardi managing since he has shown he can handle a young pitching staff, if not an insane owner. I'm not sure Hank can be put in the same category as Jeff Luria.

Somehow this team has managed to avoid crashing and burning (remember the 67-95 Stump Merrill days) despite the luxury tax and free agents signings that didn't pan out.

The Yankee brass are only concerned with championships. But do we (the fans) really need to see a championship every year, if it means all the s* we have to see in the course of the season?

If the Yanks don't make the playoffs next year, but that allows them to come back even stronger in '09, I'd be happy. But the Yankee brass think that's blasphemous (even if Cashman is trying to get them to have some patience).

The team scored 968 runs this year. I'm not going to suggest that the Yanks just put a traffic pylon at third, but offense isn't the problem with ARod playing here or ARod in Boston - the problem is pitching. If they spend money, I hope it's on Santana.

I'd also like to see if the Yanks could make a move for Chris Iannetta.

54 You are 100% correct. However, they had all that BEFORE Torregate. We were all looking forward to 2008 because of what we had in the 2nd half 2007 team.

It is impossible to project, but how Mo, Po and Pettitte feel (assuming they re-sign) and Jeter feels, will he hard to know. I believe they all saw they Yankees under Torre, as family. Will this effect their performance? Have you ever had a job where your 2 favorite and most influencial frineds/employees left? Did it change your feelings towards the company? Effect your energy? Change your attitude?

I am NOT making a statement. I am asking questions.
I don't know if there will be any fallout in that regard, but it's possible.

The idea of Torre pulling a Yogi is not fun.
The idea of Donnie (God forbid) pulling a Yogi is not fun. Will losing Bowa effect Cano? There are now many issues. They are might mean nothing. But they could also be significant.

I mean, if you lose 2 fingers, ya still got 8 left. But losing 2 fingers still sucks!

I may be wrong, but 1 thought:
2nd half 2007 Yankees + Joba/IPK/Hughes now with some experience + 1 winter of getting some BP help, 1 SP and maybe 1B issue + continued development of the farm = 2008 domination and beginning of next dynasty.

I'm NOT saying this is nuclear.
I'm NOT saying all is lost.
I am saying we took some steps backwards and may have damaged Torre's and Donnie's place in Yankee's history, and may have thrown away 2008.

And that if ARod does go to the Red Sox, that this MAY indeed br a very bad time.

BUT... as I said above... it is NOT only the specifics of what has happened recently, but the judgement of DARY I am concerned about. I just hope that all this is NOT the first signal of deeper problems coming.

Scoring fewer runs is worse. That's true whether your pitching is great, mediocre, or terrible. If the Yankees can improve their pitching, I'll be happy -- but not as happy as I would have been if they had improved their pitching and still scored 968 runs.

I'd be completely happy with spending oodles of money on Santana. But we'll have to spend young talent, too, and I don't know if that will really make the team better in the long run.

FWIW - Olney is reporting that the deal with Girardi is set - 3yrs - 6 mil.
And that Mike Harkey MIGHT be his pitching coach.
I was hoping that position would be internal, but okay.
Anyone know anything about him (as a coach)?

I think Hank or Hal said it correctly: "A-Rod didn't want to be in NY". I can't fault him for that. I actually don't believe it's all about the money. I do think there are some quality of life and family issues involved here. I believe there has been some behind the scenes hanky-panky going on and that Boras has a team that has supplied him a negotiating floor.

I don't believe we can replace A-Rod because he is in fact a top 5 position player if not the best in that category. We will however be able to substitute in some creative ways to make the loss less painful and perhaps come out the other end a better team.

This does however place Hank's comments about "giving the new manager a grace period because he wont be getting the '96 Yankees" in some perspective. I'm wondering if there isn't an aspect here of the Yankees attempting to clean house a little bit and move some guys along. I'm thinking about Mo and Jorge. I wonder now how serious the Yankees are about bring them both back. I have a sense that at least one of them may not be back, hence Hank's comment. I think we may indeed be looking at a down year in '08 with a planned resurgence in '09 for the new stadium. I hope not (best laid plans etc.) but that makes sense to me given the comments made and the actions taken this year to date.

This has been like watching paint peel in time lapse: I'm really hating this.

82 oops... I'm NOT saying this is nuclear winter

85 Jorge at least has to come back. Molina is not a full time catcher.

87

Posada plays 1B 2-3 days a week, catches 3-4 days a week. Molina catches on days when Posada plays 1B?

Wonder if the Jays would part with Overbay?

ooh i wonder if YES has edited alex out of the yankeeography commercials yet. at this point they might as well make a whole new one.

88 Sounds like a good plan.
So if Giambi is full time DH, do you use 1B to get at bats for Matsui & Posada (Damon in LF, Melky CF).

Than all that is needed is finding a thirdbaseman. Someone who wants to play in New York.

88 i doubt it - he is a professional hitter :)

88 90 but in seriousness posada to 1B has not worked out yet; and we don't know how well matsui would do there either.
the only one comfortable with the idea of doing it seems to be damon

I don't know if anyone was around for the dominant Baltimore teams of the late 60's/early 70's, but I see the Yankee 1996-2000 run similar.

These were both very well BALANCED teams.
Both strong up the middle. Both had excellent SP. They excelled, to some high degree, in the 3 areas of offense, defense and pitching. It is silly to say 'we won with Brosius' or 'didn't have a superstar' and comparisons of the like. We won because we had a total of high end performance in all aspects of the game... especially pitching.

Our teams of late have been MUCH, MUCH stronger on offense, weaker on defense and considerably weaker in both SP and BP pitching.

Losing ARod was a blow because we were built on offense, not balance.

However, Joba, Phil, IPK and other kids may change that dynamic. Losing ARod hurts. Hopefully we will make up some of the lost wins with better pitching.

My issue is the Cubs, Liriano, etc. Until we get a few years from our young studs, we can't absolutely count on them.

We pretty much KNOW what to expect from ARod, Mo, Po and Pettitte... or at least can take an educated guess. But pitching is more fragile. Until we get a year or 2 of 180+ innings from these kids, we are still in wait-n-see mode.

My guess is Posada can NOT play 1B. He has Mike Piazza written all over him.

Someone suggested that Cashman didn't really want ARod. That, indeed, housecleaning was happening. If this is true, was Hank's comments about "giving the new manager a grace period because he wont be getting the '96 Yankees" a way to get ARod to leave on his own?

That statement, to me, was really stupid. Why PUBLICALLY set the bar low? Say that to Girardi in private? Fine. But to say that ALOUD at this time?

Does anyone else think saying that was INCREDIBLY STUPID? Or is it possibly there was a method to this madness.

If the Yankee's truly don't want ARod, they having him Opt-out is very smart. Makes the Yankees look good and ARod bad. Possible?

Although A-Rod is one of the greatest hitters in the game and it isn't possible to replace his hits, I do think it might be possible to replace him with a couple players that hit even great pitching consistently with much less power (by not trying to set home run records), are better teammates, and play just as good defense at the corners AND still save a couple bucks. When Arod knew his next HR was a big record, he was lousy - I hated seeing that selfishness. Total runs might go down, but they don't correlate that closely with wins anyway.

For that reason I don't buy the argument that the Yankees need to replace Arod's run production exactly. I need to take the time to do the stats but here's my feeling: The Yankees produced more runs than any other team, but that didn't result in the most wins. More consistent, healthier, more average pitching - 4.5 era - that consistently goes 7 innings would have a greater impact than scoring more runs. It would lighten the load on the relief corps, which would probably make them better too.

Of course, five healthy starters with a 4.5 era probably doesn't win too many playoff series, so maybe a couple 3.5 eras at the front of the rotation should be a goal. And the youngsters and Wang might be able to summon something like that as is.

I detested AROD for illogical reasons. I hated his success even though it was for my beloved Yankees. I can't wait to hate his extraordinary success somewhere else with a clearer conscience - and in Boston I could hate him the most freely. How can he not sign there as a SS? It's almost inconceivable.

94 i see nothing wrong with publicly expressing the idea that next season could be a transition with all the young pitchers. i don't think it contributed whatsoever to arod opting out.

I'm not sure Posada's bat--except lat year's career year--warrants first base. Better to use him as much as possible at catcher, with some rest days at DH or on the bench, and get a real 1B.

i think we should try hard to trade either matsui or damon, whoever gets us a good young 1b or 3b. and i think we should regard giambi as a pinch hitter, not as an every day dh. either that or just dump him.

94 I'm really happy he said that; take some of the pressure off.

"Most fans first heard the news at 11:05, when Fox's Ken Rosenthal reported that Boras "confirmed that Alex Rodriguez has decided to opt out of his contract."

This was in the top of the eighth inning of the last game of the World Series, and understandably led Joe Buck and Tim McCarver to discuss it. Major League Baseball was stunned."

Question: We all know this was a crappy stunt by Boras-Boras/ARod. No question.
But waht about Ken Rosenthal? Does he get a free pass? We know Boras is a media whore. But did someone threaten Ken, Joe and Buck's family, and tell them to announce this DURING that game? Could they have waited 2 hours?

Back in the day, reporters knew Kennedy was screwing Marilyn, but no one reported it. That was the standard of the time.

Did Ken, Joe and Buck/Fox play a role in 'upstaging the WS'?

82 "2nd half 2007 Yankees + Joba/IPK/Hughes now with some experience + 1 winter of getting some BP help, 1 SP and maybe 1B issue + continued development of the farm = 2008 domination and beginning of next dynasty."

Absolutely- and I don't see where the difference lies, other than A-Rod is out of the picture. I think it's pretty clear that A-Rod/Boras should not be taken at their word and the decision to opt-out was NOT due to the Joe Torre situation. And it's true that the lack of A-Rod will hurt the team for the next five years or so. It may make us feel a bit better around 2013 when some team is on the hook for $30M for a 40 year old in decline.

But still, the decisions to come will not affect the Yankees much beyond 2008. Posada is needed for next year, certainly, but beyond that he will fade into an advisory role to one of the catching prospects. Rivera is a face of the franchise but there's no reason to believe he will be a significant factor much beyond 2008. And while Pettitte will be a nice, stabilizing addition to a young pitching staff (many of whom will have an innings cap), he's not playing beyond 2008 either.

So I guess I would agree that, minus all FOUR players, would appear to be punting 2008. Is that really such a bad thing? Would you prefer the Yankees of old, who would no doubt throw heaps of money at Torii Hunter or Andruw Jones, just to make a splash?

If they all left, I would be happy if the Yankees took the money saved on A-Rod, Mo, Posada, and Pettitte and threw it exclusively at the 10 or so first round draft picks they'd be likely to get in 2008 if they all signed elsewhere.

84 ....what???????????........no incentives for Girardi??

102 Ha! I just looked at the story again on ESPN and now it is saying (it was updated at 10:38am) "worth approximately $7.5 million" - so maybe there is.

103 ...if true that means Girardi has them by the balls........the F/O is spinning and starting to offer crazy money to stop any more bleeding........and it sounds like the Phillies are pushing hard on MO. Some one get the turniquet.

We really need Mo. Anyone want to see Joba and Phil pitch 7 innings of 1 run ball and then turn the game over to Farns?

Great SP is wasted unless you have at least a decent BP. WE NEED MO!

100 Interesting observation, but I think I do give them a pass, just based on the fact that it's what the media DO. There's constant competitive pressure to get the scoop, and Boras knows that. Asking Rosenthal to withhold a huge scoop is much less reasonable than asking Boras to withhold the announcement 12 hours.

I'd love to see the Yanks try and do another deal with Arizona this winter and try and bring in Chad Tracy and Carlos Quentin.

Tracy is 28 and coming off injury but might be a good fit. Arizona now has Mark Reynolds at 3B (if they don't move him to 2B and trade Hudson) so that might leave Tracy as trade bait. Quentin was horrible last year and injured but had a great minor league track record. Arizona already has their OF of the future and I don't think Quentin is part of those plans.

Arizona could use some young pitching as they have young position players everywhere. I'm not sure it is feasible or what young pitching it would take, but I think these are the types of deals Cashman should be exploring.

Boras said causing a distraction was an unintended consequence.

"I apologize to the Boston Red Sox and Colorado Rockies and their players, Major League Baseball and its players, and baseball fans everywhere for that interference," he said in a statement. "The teams and players involved deserved to be the focus of the evening and honored with the utmost respect. The unfortunate result was not my intent, but is solely my fault. I could have handled this situation better, and for that I am truly sorry."

Red Sox fans sure took notice fast. After their team won the title for the second time in four seasons, they stood behind the visitors' dugout at Coors Field and chanted: "Don't sign A-Rod!"

Also among the 57 players who filed for free agency on the first possible day were Yankees P Mariano Rivera, C Jorge Posada and 1B Doug Mientkiewicz; San Francisco OF Barry Bonds.

2008 Yankees + Bonds at DH = decent shot at PS = maybe nobody really misses ARod?

104 yeah - he seems to have a good bit of leverage.

105 no - i don't want to see that
there's not much else out there to spend money on this year, so they should be able to make Mo a tremenendous offer

http://tinyurl.com/2uakjo

Posada and Rivera among 5 Yanks to file for FA.

110 . It's a done deal. They filed yesterday. Reports out of Philly are that they are playing hard for MO, possibly Lowell, and that the Phillies might be going on the block next year.

106 I understand your thinking but Boras gets what... 10% of ARods contract? The truth is Boras has absolutely no obligations to anyone, including MLB, except his client. Lawyers pull all kinds of 'borderline' shit all the time if it benefits their client.

But Ken et al do make their living off of MLB. They are part of the team. Should they not have a tiny bit of integrity for the sake of MLB? Cound they have at least waited until after the game? (a whole hour or so)

Call Boras an asshole. I call him smart. I don't think ARod would have had the balls to do this, but Boras certainly has.

It's true that "it's what the media DO." But little kids tend to tease other 'outcast' little kids. Happens all the time. Does this make it right?

It's funny. What ARod and Boras are doing is simply "it's what they DO", and yet we are outraged! Funny where we choose to give "it's what they do" a pass, and where we don't.

Can someone please tell me why the Sox are not anxious to re-sign Lowell?

113 I can tell you that Sox fans want him back. (If A-Rod ends up playing for Boston, neither NY nor Sox fans will be happy...)

112 Personally (and I know many disagree with me) - I don't give a flip about upstaging the WS. If the Yanks or for that matter any other team (it's just not as big of news) wants to name a manager or whatever during the WS, they should. If your "product" is that easily upstageable (probably a made-up word) then MLB needs to worry about that.
If Fox's primary concern was about the WS, they did not have to report on ARod - afterall, they were not breaking news they were just reporting it - there is a slight distinction.
However, with that said - Boras knew exactly what he was doing and so did ARod - they are free to do what they want - but they cannot turn around and not expect the reaction to be negative. There was absolutley no reason other than attention to opt-out and announce on Sunday rather than Monday - much less waiting to the deadline to negotiate with the Yanks (if he did/does in fact want to come back)

113 he reportedly wants a 4 year deal.

112 For one thing, Boras has to know how the timing of this story could impact his client's image. Because of their move, they had the fans of a potential suitor joyously chanting "Don't Sign A-Rod!" It brought angry comments from MLB, and required an apology from Boras. It further cements the negative image of ARod - and does that cost him advertising dollars, or even take away some of their negotiating leverage with other clubs? I think you can make the case that this is a "borderline" move that may well in fact hurt his client.

If Fox had withheld the story, THAT would hurt their integrity, professionally speaking. It's not their job to protect the sanctity of the game from people like Boras. It's their job to report the news. And if they didn't break it when they did, then ESPN or someone else would have, and then we'd all be scratching our heads as to why Fox felt the need to protect ARod's image or protect the moment for the Sox by pleading ignorance about the news. Reporting that story is Fox's job. It just so happens that Fox's job is less repugnant than Boras' "job."

Basically, what Boras "does" and what Fox "does" are very different, just like what Fox does is very different from what schoolyard bullies do.

113 116 And Lowell turns 34 in Feb 2008.

The Sox will never sign him for 4 years, much less 3, not as long as they have the option of Youk at 3B and Carter/? at 1B.

115 I think Fox's concern is to their audience. It's not unreasonable to think that the audience of a World Series game would want to hear about a major development in an ongoing situation involving the game's best player and the arch-rival of one of the teams in the World Series.

For Fox to not report that story, really they would have to make the conscious conclusion that "our audience doesn't want to hear about this," which would frankly be silly.

118

Third baseman age pretty quickly (especially their backs). I'd expect Lowell's productivity to decline significantly, even if he HAS taken advantage of the Monster.

110 My level of concern hangs on those too and Pettitte. If all three are in the fold, I think 2008 will be fine. I am not even allowing myself to consider alternatives without them.

Somewhat off topic . . .

I'm sorry, I don't have the heart to read through the rest of yesterday's 800+ comment thread yet. So if I'm dredging up sore wounds (or dead horses), my bad.

If Torre goes to manage the Dodgers, fine. Great. Good for him. Hopefully the Dodgers will try to field an all-veteran team and decide to make Kemp, Loney, Ethier, LaRoche etc available - and if so, I'd hope the Yanks snatch them up likethat. (And, I'd feel really really bad for the poor Dodger fans over at Dodger Thoughts - you folks don't deserve that.)

But Mattingly . . .

The 8-year-old in me, who idolized Donnie Baseball, the Hit Man, the 1985 MVP, cannot, CANNOT accept him wearing Dodger Blue - or any other major league uniform. This is NOT happening. Even if it happens, it did NOT happen. Let's all agree to this now, and then never speak of it again. OK?

But I'm not 8, I'm 30. And while the 30-year-old adult me can rationalize it, can even understand it - its forcing a part of me that still wants to be a kid to grow up, and deal with the fact that even Donnie Baseball isn't going to be just a Yankee forever.

Damn you and your prescient "you root for the laundry" comment, Jerry Seinfeld. You were right, and it hurts.

Something I don't buy:

1. "The Yankee offense will still be fine without Rodriguez." No, it doesn't just weaken them a little, it tears a hole in the middle of the lineup. All of a sudden there's no cleanup hitter, a lack of real power threats, and a huge imbalance towards lefty hitters. Using VORP, replacing Rodriguez with Betemit is a loss of almost 90 runs.

2. "They'll make up for it with pitching." 90 runs is over half a run a game. That's an awful lot for three rookies to make up.

3. "They can use the money to buy more pitching/improve the bullpen/get a couple of position players." I don't see why this is a zero-sum game; the Yankees won't stop being able to spend money by signing Rodriguez. Besides, spending more on the bullpen certainly hasn't worked in the past, and it's not like there are terribly useful free agents around.

4. "They don't need a superstar at every position. They won with Scott Brosius at 3B." Don't look now, but they don't have a superstar, or even a star, at every position. They have some players who used to be superstars but aren't anymore; and others who might be superstars someday; but who's actually a superstar today? Maybe Jeter, if you squint a little; Posada last year, but maybe not next; ummmm.... Brosius replaced Boggs and Hayes. If he'd replaced Bernie or O'Neill, the team might not have won so much.

123

Sadly, you are right across the board.

The FA market this year in the positions the Yanks needs is not plentiful.

I'm going to repeat myself from last night; apologies to those who've read it.

I think the Yankees would be foolish not to pursue Rodriguez now. I know what they said, and they had good reason to say it; I'm just not sure they still have good reason to stick to it, now that conditions have changed.

As I see it, his decision to opt out, the Texas money and everything else that came before should be put aside for a second. Here are the essential facts:

1. The Yankees need a third baseman.
2. The Yankees need a cleanup hitter, a righty with legitimate power.
3. Alex Rodriguez is a free agent.

I think the rest is pride and hurt feelings. With Torre, they made it clear that business is just business, and they need to take that view here as well.

Maybe he really doesn't want to come back, in which case they can't sign him. But if they don't try, I think they're just cutting off their nose to spite their face.

115 I 100% agree with you. Everything we see is 100% gamesmanship. And I agree with 116 -199 also. I would not expect Fox not to report the news as soon as it happened.

I guess I am 'goofing' on the 'outrage' over this incident. It did not really detract from the Red Sox 'moment', and as Ms October points out... if it does upstage the WS, then there is something very wrong with the WS.

Olney wrote an (Insider) article about how 'boring' the WS has been, basically since 2001. My guess is the WC, and the fact that the 2 best teams often DON'T make it, is part of the problem. Selig et al are desparate to prove 'competative' balance, so we have 'crapshoot' playoff rounds to prove 'low budget' teams can win, which ultimately detracts from the WS. Fox is only lucky the Sox beat the Indians, or the WS ratings would really be in the toilet.

Remember when Selig said we have a 5 game DS series (instead of 7) because the season was too long, and we couldn't find 2 extra games without shortening the regular season?

And now somehow has added 2 or 3 extra 'days off' to the playoffs, which killed the continuity for both fans and players?

Selig is as good at gamesmanship as Boras.

125 It's more than pride and hurt feelings -- it would reveal the entire Yankee FO as hypocrites and pushovers to pursue A-Rod now, after all they have said to this point, and that would significantly impact any advantage they might have had in future negotiations. That would bad enough, but if the Yankees went hard after A-Rod now and he signed elsewhere, they would be a laughingstock.

123 and 125 You have valid points, but you must admit you aren't thinking much of the long-term implications. Also, you aren't considering that the Yankees might have a plan B. For example, let's say the Yankees trade for Cabrera, sign Hunter/Rowand and bring in a stop gap 1B (maybe Nick Johnson, for example), while losing Arod, trading Melky and not resigning Minky. How much worse did the Yankee offense really get? Then, consider that you'd have Hughes and Chamberlain (I'll assume IPK was part of the Cabrera deal) for 180 innings, as well as the absence of DeSalvo/Igawa/Clippard/etc. How mcuh better did the pitching get? Is that a feasible scenario, and if it is, are the Yankees better under it?

The answer is debateable, but I think the point is there is life after Arod.

126 Yeah, I definitely see your point about the "outrage." Frankly, I'm sure many viewers were glad to hear the news for obvious reasons.

It was more of a case of Peter Gammons flipping out with his "you're taking away from my Precious!" thing, and then of course MLB weighing in. That said, Boras really is a dick for trying to yank the spotlight.

Not sure if I agree with your comments about the best teams not making it, though. Detroit, Houston and St. Louis (the last three WS losers before Colorado) all were looking like playoff beasts - maybe not the best teams, but still very good teams, and no one would have been surprised if they had won the Series. The '03 Yanks were clearly one of the best teams, and the '02 WS was in fact super-dramatic.

I think it has more to do with the losing teams spitting the bit than anything else. I mean, in the last 4 years, the losing team has only managed a single win - three sweeps! That's nuts. But I don't think it has to do with the caliber of the losing team - they simply didn't play well in that series (except for Colorado, which really did seem like ther were playing above their heads).

If A-Rod were interested in signing with the Yankees, he would have at least negotiated before opting out. By opting out so early without negotiation, he leaves millions of Texas dollars on the table. That's irrational if he has any intention of re-signing with NY. I don't believe he's irrational.

The loophole: maybe Boras expects huge offers from other teams that will in fact never materialize. That would change the situation.

123 Dude...you are 110% correct. In the last thread, I did overreact to some comments. Hearing ARod called a 'lying piece of shit', 'pig', 'scumbag' and various other names outraged me.

I have great questions about DARY... which is an insulting acronym. But I can't put faceless beancounters on the same level as a great player who wore the Pinstripes for 4 years, brought in 2 MVPs, and really carried this team to the PS both those years.

I reacted to the arrogance of some, who are able to read minds and predict the future, and who are absolute in knowing ARods 'true' character and motivation, in or course, the worst possible light. I have never seen such pedantic and dogmatic behavior anywhere. I will apologize for my over reaction, but I was disgusted by not only ARods treatment, but the treatment of a Yankee.

There is NO doubt this team is much better with ARod, and he will be close to impossible to replace. The FA market is flat in 2008, and not the vehicle for 'reasonable priced' talent if was some years ago.

Furthermore... Santana and many other desirerable will cost us currency we can't afford, and that is youth and talent. In reality, cash currency we have. $18m for 3 months of Roger? If we can afford that in order to win, ARod is dirt cheap.

But I have faith in Cashman. I'll guess he was as surprised as us at the 'quickness' of ARods decision, but I'm sure the guy has many contingency plans. He's a smart guy. I don't think 'The Steinettes' together know as much about baseball as the average Banterer (and there is lots written to back this up), but I'm happy to let them play Bad Cop to Cashman's Good Cop.

IF ARod doesn't get HUGE money and
IF he's still willing to come back to the Yankees...
I expect Cashman will put the correct political spin on it (after all, it would be our FIRST shot at a negotiation) and bring ARod back on board. I don't know IF it will happen, but I think Cashman is still in the hunt.

Cashman understands that Boras is just playing the game. But Cashman can play too.

130 The Yankees said they wont negotiate, but they never said they wouldn't take him back. In other words, if Arod got desperate and was willing to take a deal $21mn less the Yankees originally offered him, then I think the Yankees could save face. Of course, that is very unlikely. Also, the more I think about it, I am not sure I want any 32 year old player for 10 years at a price between $250-300 million.

ARod/Boras deliberately fucked the Yanks out of the Texas money. The Yankee FO and ownership has said, loud and clear, that they would not negotiate with him if he opted out. To do so now damages their credibility and will hurt them in future negotiations with other players.

They need to go hard after Posada and Mo, and then get creative with 3B. There are options. None of those options are as good as ARod, granted, but all is not lost.

The main thing, for next year and beyond, is to continue the recent trend of investing in the farm.

131 If Cashman is playing a game, his position could be they made such definitive statements because they thought it would force Boras to lower his price in order to get the Yankees back involved. If the numbers in that contract bear out, then perhaps Cashman could come out looking like a genius, as opposed to a liar.

131 If Cashman is playing a game, his position could be they made such definitive statements because they thought it would force Boras to lower his price in order to get the Yankees back involved. If the numbers in that contract bear out, then perhaps Cashman could come out looking like a genius, as opposed to a liar.

Cabrera is about the one player who CAN at least come close to matching A-Rod who might be available. The guy's a beast. BUT, a) He, like Santana, would come at the cost of Hughes or Joba, no doubt about it and b) there is the weight thing...

I've been spending a lot of time around here just reading. FWIW, I'm pretty excited about what's happening. Yes, I know, the new mouthpieces Steinbrenner have entered with a verbal bang rather than a whimper. I'm not sure that is not to be expected. I think in time they could learn to like diplomacy. Gaffs have been made. The end of things it is not.

I am sad to lose A-Rod's production. I am not sad to see him go. I never booed and I cheered and rooted for him like crazy, never more than at the start of this season. I would have been glad to have him back...but, there's just something about A-Rod...I don't know.

I hope there's no long playoff drought or return to dealing prospects for aged vets. If not, there's plenty to be excited about from AAA to the GCL. The future is bright.

I don't think I was the only one tired of wondering why this ensemble of all-stars just seemed to press so much. How did they lose 4 in a row to BOS in the ALCS? Where did the bats keep disappearing to? Why did they look so tense, so tight, so out of sorts? Maybe, it was just perception. Maybe, not. But, I have grown tired of watching the same thing replay year after year. Losing is hard. Losing the way the Yanks have over the last 4 feels harder.

I look forward to the opportunity for a new dynamic brought about by a new manager and a new mix of players. It could all go south. It could also blossom. I guess I'm just excited by the promise of something new, with greater potential outcomes, than the same old, same old.

It's just a sentiment. Because, logically, I understand that we were better off, statistically, with Alex (and Sheff) at the bat.

128 You hit upon the real question. The operating assumption for many is that the FO is either clueless or heartless...or both. Thus, they assume that there is no Plan B.

But as I commented earlier 33 , they presumably did have contingency plan(s) in case A-Rod left (and, for that matter, in case all of the FAs leave). Now we get to see just how prepared the FO is--now is Cashman really earns his pay check.. This, I will reserve judgement about their handling of the situation until we have enough historical data to make such a dertermination.

130 It'd be real funny if no one offered more than $25 mil per.

133 "They need to go hard after Posada and Mo, and then get creative with 3B. There are options. None of those options are as good as ARod, granted, but all is not lost.

The main thing, for next year and beyond, is to continue the recent trend of investing in the farm. "

Amen.

"It's more than pride and hurt feelings -- it would reveal the entire Yankee FO as hypocrites and pushovers to pursue A-Rod now"

EVERYBODY knows the Big Stein is failing and the kids jumped in to the family business because they 'had to'. DARY does not carry much weight, just bluster. Cashman is the only one that really carries any weight.

Here's a very simply (Cashman) statement that puts it all right, if we do indeed sign ARod.

"I meant what I said at the time, and I felt it was in the best interest for the Yankees. However, in evaluating what has since happened... I CHANGED MY MIND. It is too important for a player of Alex's stature to retire and enter the HOF as anything but a Yankee. I can not let may past statements get in the way to doing what is now best for the team"

It's really, really easy. People say shit all the time. Apologize, change their mind. Whatever. And everyone one knows this is ONE HUGE GAME. Everything everyone says is bullshit. It's meaningless.

Hank will say "This tells me that Alex fully understands his legacy as a Yankee... yada yada yada..."
ARod will say how good it is to be 'Home'... yada yada yada

The REAL game is played between the lines.
You would be amazed at what you can get away with, if you are willing to say:
"Gee... I guess I was wrong... sorry"

138 A plan B, like maybe trading an overworked middle reliever for a cheap, young 3B with some pop?

128 As Zack said, you're not trading for Cabrera AND keeping Joba and Phil.

And please, someone explain to me exactly how this would hurt them in future negotiations. Not just "they'll lose credibility" or "they'll be laughingstocks" - what will actually happen differently in future negotiations?

"If A-Rod were interested in signing with the Yankees, he would have at least negotiated before opting out."

You are not thinking 'Game'. Because ARod did NOT talk to the Yankees, he did NOT turn down the Yankees. Cashman has yet to make his 'First' offer. BORAS: "Since Rod really considers himself a Yankee, we wanted to give the Yankees the last shot at ARod, so the Yankees could make the ultimate decision".

Don't you see how BRILLIANT this is?
He is allowing Cashman to save face.
ARod gets to field ALL offers..
AND....
He can go back to the Yankees and say
'What would you like to offer'

ARod is having his cake and eating it to.
Meanwhile, the Yankees might get the final offer.

Their FIRST offer.
And ARod NEVER turned them down.

Did you hear how polite Cashman's statement was. No anger or hate what-so-ever. Boras' first statement was he considers the Yankees a viable player.
Boras is brilliant!

Now... I am NOT saying this will happen...
Just that it's being set up so it could.

This is like watching 'The Day of the Jackal'
This is WAYYYYYY better then the WS.

However, I do tend to look at the hysteria currently going on in Yankee land (and even creeping in Cliff's normally level-handed analysis), as more than just overblown but blindly self-destructive. So far, the only indications of where this team is heading that I have seen is in the direction of where Cashman wants it to go. Sure, the A-Rod thing was a blow to the team, but even in their response, Cashman's stance has been backed up. Across the board, we are seeing his plan be put into place. Perhaps not as smoothly as we would all like, but still.

But gnashing teeth and wringing hands over the supposed direction or tenor of this team is a 100% emotional response and not one focused on the actual state of the Yankees. We get it, you are bummed over Torre leaving, a man who we all respected. But he's gonna be the manager of the Dodgers now, so best to get over that heart ache now. Loyalty to the team only spreads so far for players, and loyalty to players only spreads so far for fans.

As I said yesterday, the Yankees trajectory is about one year behind the Sox, but with a far more loaded minor leagues. It wouldn't shock me to see the Yanks have a 2008 like the Sox 2006. I would most certainly expect a few trades of the excess minor league pitching for some young positional talent and the like. And so for the next year the Yankees might not be the best team out there, but I can guarantee you they will be fun to watch, with that rotation. And then by 2009, you have a few more kids ready (Gardner, who gets no love but really should have as much hype as the, I'm sorry, but overhyped Ellsbury; A-Jax, who has been a beast; Tabata etc). I just don't see the panic. Its only that everything has happened in such a short time

134
It's all a game... It's all a game... It's all a game... It's all a game... It's all a game... It's all a game...

138 Perhaps they do have a plan B. If so, that's great. I think it's foolish to write off plan A completely.

"Get creative" at third base sounds nice. What does it actually mean? Wilson Betemit?

144 You're right, at least partly. I'm not entirely pessimistic by any means - but I don't know if I'm as optimistic as you are, either. (How did you get to be an optimist?) There are an awful lot of ifs in there.

And I actually think that next year's team has a chance to be not only bad but kind of dull.

142 I don't agree. Time and time again we see star players traded well their rumored cost. I think a package of Melky, IPK and another top prospect (and the Yankees have many) would be enough to land Cabrera, especially when you consider he is looking at making $11-13mn in arbitration.

143 Day of the Jackal!

So which one is Carlos? Gotta be Boras, right?

136 "Cabrera is about the one player who CAN at least come close to matching A-Rod who might be available."

True, but the kid is showing VERY disturbing things. If fame in FLORIDA has him scarfing Ring Dings, what will the lights of NY do?
Plus, what will he cost in terms of personel?

It would be nice to find at least a one year stop gap, who is cheap and still a great impact guy.

The name is Bonds. Barry Bonds.
(Almost the same OPS as ARod, against better pitching, in a stadium NOT well suited to his stroke. I know it is an UGLY UGLY UGLY solution, but look at the facts.)

Just to play devil's advocate, what if ARod did this with good intentions? What if he feels bad about screwing over Texas the way he left (right after being named Captain)? What if he wants to stay with the Yankees but doesn't feel right that Texas keeps getting penalized for three more years? What if this entire thing were orchestrated between Arod & the Yanks - they let Texas off the hook, he agrees secretly to take $21m less to compensate the Yanks, the Yanks get to make some good headlines after the Torre debacle, Arod steals some Red Sox thunder. . .

A person can dream, right?

I'm still hoping the Rays don't want to keep Pena and the much higher salary he'll be awarded in arbitration. That is if he's a pro about it and doesn't harbor any hard feelings for being spurned by the Yanks so recently.

I think Pena is from a suburb of Boston. You know the Sox will go after him if they let Lowell go. Youk to 3rd, Pena at first, and they don't lose much over this year's production at either position.

147 There are ifs, but mostly on the side of player development. I don't doubt that Joba can be an ace and Hughes if not an ace, a damn good #2. We already know that Wang can win games, and as an eventual #3, hes REAL good. The rotation hinges on the "if" of Pettitte. The Yanks really need him to come back, and I suspect he will once everything settles a bit.

The other ifs, well, let me put it this way: surrounded by all the doom and gloom and heartache and name calling and blame game and chicken littleing and all the rest, I find it much more satisfying and fruitful to look past it all and notice that the Yankees have not done anything particularly wrong as of yet.

And I also laugh at the idea that Joe Torre and Don Mattingly bring something to the table that Grady Little doesn't in Chavez Ravine. The Dodgers are obviously singing up for the past instead of looking at the present.

149 Shhhhhhhhhhhh... Carlos is Boras, and Boras is Carlos. They both contain the letters o,r,a,s. Easy for changing passports and other documents. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I would place serious reservations on the notion that Pena is going to match his 2007. Remember, the Sox and Yanks both had Pena the year before...

151 That is as valid as any other therory.

I would have no problem with Bonds, but the problem is the Yankees already have a glut of bad fielding, DH-types. If you signed him, you would be forced to count on Gimabi playing first all year and Hideki and the rest playing outfield all year. Or you trade Melky, but then you have a really really really really bad outfield.

And as for Cabrera's eating problems, well, Manny hasn't exactly stayed super thin, and with the proper motivation, who knows.

i honestly think it would be best for all of you to abandon any hope of seeing arod back in pinstripes. it isn't going to happen. it wouldn't just be about whether cashman can apologize and save face. it's about whether he can take tough stances in the future. and if he caved in now, no one would ever take his word when he says something like "this is the final offer, take it or leave it," and that would significantly diminish his bargaining position. yes, it's a game, but the game doesn't end now. you have to think about the future. arod is not coming back. just admit it to yourselves and move on.

151 i know you're joking, but arod didn't trade himself from texas.

Oh, and with Girardi officially the manager now, the Yankees can actually focus on the rest of business. I fully expect Pena to be retained, and Long probably too. Eiland as BP coach?

142 It's impossible to say because each negotiation is different, but if Cashman were to sacrifice his credibility here, a future version of the Abreu trade might cost the Yankees a better prospect or two, or a future version of the Damon signing might entail more years. Cashman has a reputation now of sticking to his guns, and these games of chicken tend to work out in his favor. That might not be the case going forward were he to negotiate with A-Rod now.

like it or not, we NEED to talk about Barry.
HIS #1 choice is the Yankees.
He can probably be had for $10m or less.
As DH in Yankee stadium, he could actually outproduce ARod. (They guy could headbutt a ball into our RF seats).

Yeah...go on... avoid it. But it WILL have to be discussed if ARod does not come back. (and maybe even if he does).

158 Dude... Miggy is only 24. Have you seen him? He's HUUUUUUUUUUGE for a baby! Manny and Gwynn were 'Twiggy' at 24 compared to him. I don't have stats, but I think he is already crappy on defense.

He MIGHT be great... but to have his talent and future and still let himself go at only 24? Idunnknow... doesn't bode well.

Meanwhile, big fat ARod lost 10 lbs last offseason and put his body fat percentage into negative numbers.

Idunnknow... he's gonna cost us a lot in talent.

150 He'd get the short porch in right, and center/right is about 30 feet closer than "Triple Alley" or whatever they call it.

159 So... just forinstance...IF
ARod came back and said to Cashman:
"LA offered me 7/$200m. I'd prefer to be a Yankee"
Cashman should say...."Sorry"? "NoSpeakadeEnglish"? "YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE!"?
Just how many times in Cashmans career will a remotely equivilant situation arise?

POLL: Banterers... YOU are Cashman. ARod says:
"LA offered me 7/$200m. I'd prefer to be a Yankee"
What do YOU say?

163 Leaving aside the fact that Bonds' presence would create a constant circus, and then assuming you could count on him to start 130 games, and THEN assuming you could start Giambi at first base those 130 games, what would you do with Matsui? The Yankees are pretty well stocked at DH right now; Bonds makes no sense at all.

163 i know you only deal in fact, so how do you know that the yankees are his first choice? because he called it a "dream"?

165 The RF wall in SF is like 16-20' high also. It is obviously "The House that Bonds Did Not Build"

166 before you make a poll maybe you should decide for yourself how likely that situation is. arod could come back to cashman and offer to play for $1 million a year. then cashman should back down off his high horse!

166 Offer him the same contract you intended minus Texas' money.

Bonds. Does he really miss a lot of homeruns to right field by falling short? I haven't watched him very much, but he's seemed like a guy that either kills the ball, hits it to the opposite field with power, or when he misses, turns it over to short. I'm not sure how many homeruns the Stadium would actually give him over SFGiant stadium.

I'd love to watch him on a regular basis, however. He wasn't the only one abusing substances, but he abused them to the greatest effect. Man does he have a sweet swing. Million dollar swing, Bobby Bonilla type head.

159 , 162 I still don't get it. If they stick to their guns here, does that mean agents won't ask for more money? If they make a "final offer," what matters isn't whether the agent believes them but whether they really mean it.

If the Phils could have gotten another prospect for Abreu, they would have. If Damon could have gotten an extra year, ditto. Presumably both asked for it and were refused. So what if they kept insisting? If the Yankees think it's still a deal they want to make, they make it; if not, they don't. I don't see how this would force them to give more.

166

"You can have 6/100."

Um, what's with all this the 96-03 Yankees didn't have any superstars on it? I give you a partial list of players from those teams:

Derek Jeter-superstar
Mariano Rivera-Possibly the best relief pitcher of all time
Roger Clemens-Best pitcher of his era
Jorge Posada
David Cone-am I the only one who remembers how good Coney used to be?
Mussina-Borderline HOF candidate

If you mean they didn't have Bonds or Pujols, fine. But to pretend that the dynasty was built off of a bunch of scrappy guys who tried really hard is just not correct. Yes they had Brosius and O'Neill, this team has players like Abreu, Stinky (well not anymore) and Damon. Decent to very good players surrounded by superstars.

The main difference between this team and the dynasty years is starting pitching. Go look up the ERA+s. Remember when we had Wells, Cone, Pettite, etc. Its a clear delineation and began when Roger Clemens and Pettite left after 2003. We are finally getting back to that model with the kids. I for one remain optimistic.

166 I'd go as high as 7/$175.

167 Either that or Matsui makes no sense. Or JD makes no sense. Plus, many are assuming Giambi will be injured a lot. Are Mats knees OK? JD is always injured a lot. Bonds could be 200+ OPS over any of those guys (although not quite so on Jason if he is healthy).

And no offense to our 'small ball', 'contact','slap the ball' friends, but we need a HR guy.

I agree that the DH spot is over-crowded. But if you take away the UGLY UGLY UGLY ness of the situation, how can you pass?

PLUS... the guy will sell seats. The guy makes headlines. The guy would make us forget ARod. Doesn't this sound like the perfect 'Steinbrenner' player?

And for 1 year? How can you go wrong?

166 I'd tell him: "I hope you enjoy batting 8th for your ol' buddy Joe Torre in the NLDS... if you guys make it."

172 True, but in these negotiations there has to be a point where you're willing to say "forget it" and mean it.

If the Phillies said "we ALSO want Hughes, and the deal's off without him," Cash says no, and then the Phillies say "You know what?..." then they do lose credibility.

I think the point is really that when you do draw a firm line, you can't back off it. And I think Cash has drawn such a line.

I think it is unlikely he would want to find a way around it, but if Boras did come back and say "we have 7/200," Cashman could lowball and still claim with a straight face that he did not engage in pursuing Alex as a free agent.

168 He said so on in public, to a room full of people. Then that was reported in a number of papers. He said it was his 'Dream', but he knew the Yankees didn't need a DH (sigh)

174 Also, Paul O'Neill was at least a legitimate star player through 1998, if not quite a superstar. And Bernie Williams, through 2002, was probably even better.

179 he didn't say it was his dream. he called it "that dream." in no way does that sound like he's saying it's his #1 choice.

166 I have no idea how likely it is. I have no idea if ARod hates the Yanks or loves the Yanks. All I know is Boras went out of his way to say he considers the Yankees in the frey. Was this to 'up the bidding'? Dunno. Is it a 5% chance? 25% chance. Dunno. But Cashman is thinking about this too.

[178*True, but in these negotiations there has to be a point where you're willing to say "forget it" and mean it.*

Sure. But what matters next time is whether you mean it then, not now.

If the Phillies said "we ALSO want Hughes, and the deal's off without him," Cash says no, and then the Phillies say "You know what?..." then they do lose credibility.

I'm sorry, I don't follow that.

174 the point is not that there were no stars on those teams, but that there were no players of arod's caliber.

176 I agree except for the crucial point that Matsui, Damon and Giambi are already on the payroll. Adding Bonds wouldn't just mean adding money (and chaos), it would mean moving a big contract (for little if any return) or benching a big-contract player. That's bad business in more ways than one. What if Damon, Matsui, Giambi and Bonds are all relatively healthy? That's not going to be an easy bench for Girardi to manage.

171 I agree. But not only is his swing sweet... but his BATTING EYE! Amazing! I don't think he can teach it, but just having Cano watch how Mr. 760 TAKES pitches... wow. It has been reported that he knows what a pitch is by the time it's halfway to the plate. His BB rate is not just that they don't pitch to him, it's that he refuses to chase pitches that he can't hit with authority.

183 Sorry, not very clear.

If I say "I want four small marbles for my big marble, or else the deal is off!" and the other guy says "Okay, forget it." and I say "well, I guess I will take three small marbles" then I have lost credibility.

On the other hand if I said "This big marble is worth four small marbles" but then settle for three, it's part of negotiating. See what I mean?

So, to apply that to the A-Rod sitch, Cashman and the Steins have never said A-Rod will never be a Yankee again. I believe what Cashman has said repeatedly is that he will not pursue A-Rod in the free agent market (or something similar). So just maybe the door is open slightly, but I doubt it.

Does anyone even know what marbles are any more?

174 Not to mention Paulie Eckstein, Bernie Eckstein, Chuck Eckstein and Tino Eckstein.

184 Which I mentioned in my post (no Bonds, Pujols). Players like that, i.e. once in a generation types are just that. They are above and beyond a normal superstar. I could also argue that players like Roger Clemens and Mariano Rivera fall into this class, and hence the Yankees had two at the same time before A-Rod.

154 I have no doubt that Joba and Hughes can be excellent 1-2 starters. What remains to be seen is whether they will be. Add in Kennedy, and I'll make the same prediction I've made before: at least one of them will take a step backwards next year.

I hope I'm wrong.

I'd agree that the Yankees haven't actually made any bad moves. The managerial change was a matter of style, not substance; even making the best case for keeping Torre doesn't make this a bad move, just a debatable one at worst. And they didn't do a damn thing wrong with Rodriguez, obviously.

174 The geniuses that are Mike and the Mad Dog are crying about the lack of a power-hitting Righty bat in the lineup now. Who was the righty power hitter during those years?

181 Are you willing to find out? Really... is it such a stretch for any player? To want to play their last year as a Yankee? Although Barry wants WS more then anything.

188 Haha, I guess I'm just sick of hearing how the Yankees could win with players like Brosius or Boone. They won despite these players for the most part. If you have close to the top pitching staff in the league and the best bullpen, as well as Jeter, Williams, Posada, etc. you can suffer to have a below average player or two in there. I mean, the Royals and D-Rays don't seem to be winning a lot with all these scrappy guys, do they?

188 My favorite was Chad Eckstein

191 Well Bernie could hit from both sides, but your point is well taken. Later on I'd cite Soriano.

191 SHANE SPENCER!!!

Who remembers Mike Aldrete from the 96 team?

190 I would put money on Kennedy regressing, independent of your claim. he's exactly the type of pitcher who can dominate the minors but isn't quite as good as all that. That's not saying he can't be a capable pitcher in the majors in the well, Paul Byrd kind of way (and hell, thats damn valuable these days), I just don't see him as nearly on the plane as Hughes as Joba.

Which is why the Yankees should be lining him and Melky up as the centerpieces of all trades. There is also that possibility that someone actually gives into a package of Melky, Kennedy, Horne/whomever, in return for someone really good. Which would be an outstanding prospect for the Yankees...

All that being said, I still don't see Kennedy's step back being major in the long run. As I said, Having a #4 who is a league average pitcher and cheap is pretty tough these days...

it'd be great if we could move either Damon Giambi or Matsui: we can't. we could not pick up Abreu's option and play a Melky/Damon/Matsui OF, then use all the $ we've saved to buy the stud free agent who....doesn't exist.

Matsui NEEDS to play first: that gives us a very strong defensive outfield and prevents Giambi from getting hurt at the same time. I don't see any other good use of the roster talent.

without A-Rod, I hate to say it but signing Lowell makes sense: rotate him with Betemit (3b vs RP) and Duncan (1B vs LP) between 1st and 3rd; you end up with a pretty effect Betemit/Duncan platoon.

189 yes i agree that clemens and mariano were certainly superstars. but they are pitchers, much different than arod. if people are arguing that we need great pitching and less hitting superstars, that fits in with the argument. i'm not saying that i necessarily believe this, but i think you're overreacting to the argument.

193 brosius hit .300 with 98 rbis and won the world series mvp in 1998. he's not arod, but he certainly helped the team in 98. not so much after that year, but he did continue to hit in the postseason until 2001, when he nonetheless had his most memorable hit.

I really want Giambi gone, gonzo, bye bye, cya. Find somebody, anybody to take him off the Yanks hands.

Oh, and I am all for the Bonds movement. I really dislike the man, but that man can also still hit with power from the right side. Install Bonds at DH, have Matsui start taking some grounders at 1B, and continue the OF rotation of giving one of them a day off every day, with Matsui spelling Giambi/Duncan at 1B every so often. Add that to Bonds likely only playing 130 or so games, and you can make that Dh logjam work.

And besides, it really wouldn't surprise me to see Melky moved this offseason...

201 I blame his signing as the beginning of the end . . .

198 i want to agree with you about trading kennedy. but i really liked what i saw in his few starts here. very impressive command.

202 Umm, don't you mean the "other" right side?

Lohud: Joe Girardi has accepted a three-year deal worth $7.5 million.

Dudes, right or wrong, and I think it's wrong, the Yankees aren't jumping into the A-Rod Sweepstakes. He is done-zo as a Yankee.

My guess is that in a conference room in Jersey somewhere Cash and the boys have a wall plastered with targets to ameliorate the loss in production. They are moving on.

203 Because the Yankees signed an MVP who could hit the crap out of the ball? You think it was that and not the parlous state of the pitching staff?

I blame Giambi's shitty health for robbing us of a great player.

198 They said the same thing about Bob Tewksbury

200 Ok, fair enough points you make. I wasn't overreacting, sorry if it came off that way.

As for Brosius, yes his '98 year was a total fluke, and in a good way. Outside of that though he was a below average third basemen. In 2000, he OPS+ed to a 70, which is around Tony Womack's career number.

208 Exactly, I think it signified a change in choosing power over pitching and defense.

205 yeah, I don't know why i typed that...

199 Matsui does not NEED to play first, but even if he does, there is no evidence that he would be a good 1B. Moreover, I am not convinced that his age 34 season will yild much more than 120 OPS+, which is just not great for a 1B.

They really could move Matsui or Damon, however, provided they pick up a good bit of the salary (I am not sure about no trade clauses, though). Right now the two of them are redundant. If Damon's defense is really so much better than Matsui's (I think Matsui's poor defense is exaggerated, but I'll concede the point), and if second half Damon is the real thing (that is, he was simply hurt in the first half, not in full on Bernie decline mode), then I say dump Matsui.

oh, and all the folks who call Clemens a superstar: take a look at his stats in the Yankee uniform. BEST year was an ERA+ of 128, which put him 6th among AL starters. That ain't no superstar performance. Sox, Jays, Houston got superstar performance from him: we got a solid #1, no more; borderline #1 a couple years....

212 They're defense was never that good. In the meanwhile, weren't more big-time pickups pitchers not sluggers? I mean, they added Sheff and Giambi--but also made deals for RJ, Pavano, Vasquez, Weaver, Clemens (again), Wells (again), Pettitte (again). Most of these deals did not work out, but they do suggest that pitching was in fact a major focus. They picked up A-Rod but lost Soriano--so they swapped power and added better defense. I'm just not sure the deals that they made support the shift that you see.

216 Their

215 He was a superstar in terms of celebrity. We need to define our terms. Do we mean that the dynasty team did not have superstars in terms of celebrity, or superstars in terms of the best players in the game (as ARod is now)?

215 And A-Rod's 2004 and 2006? My point isn't that the team had superstars who had their best years (though in some cases they did), but Roger Clemens in a down year is not Paul Byrd scrapping by.

201 Giambi is gone after this year. They are not going to move him this year, and there is no reason to. At worst he is a 20 million dollar LH PH. At best he can be a potent bat at 1B or DH until his inevitable injury. Then he's gone.

183 You're assuming that, in these deals, the Yankees have a line they won't cross, and that line is also the exact point at which the deals are made. But it's not that simple. Consider this fictionalized account of the Abreu negotiations:

Cashman calls the Phils, says: "I like Bobby Abreu and I understand you are hoping to move an outfielder. I will give you prospects F, G and H for Abreu."

Phils say: "We would like prospect A, or prospects B and C for Abreu. Also, have you heard of our other outfielder, Pat Burell? He is called 'Pat the Bat.' Think of how that will play in the Bronx! With the role call and whatnot. Interested?"

Cashman: "No thank you. Back to Abreu, I will give you prospects E, F and G and eat a percentage of $$$, but that is my final offer."

Phils: "OK just give us prospects C and D and $$ and we'll call it a day."

Cash: "No."

Phils: "D and E?"

Cash: "Nope."

Phils: "Come on, this is a good player we are talking about! He won the home run derby!"

Cash: "I'm sorry but my line is drawn here."

Now the clock is ticking. Cash wants--maybe NEEDS Abreu--and the Phils want--maybe NEED--to move him. They're at a standoff. One team has to acquiesce to the other's demands. Now here's the other thing: If it comes to it, Cash will give up prospect C--but he doesn't want to do that, because prospect C is, say, Ian Kennedy, and Cash thinks Ian Kennedy might have a future with the team. But, again, he kinda NEEDS Abreu. So the two sides sit at opposite ends of the conversation, wondering who is going to budge first.

If Cashman has a reputation for being a flake, the Phils might be more inclined to wait him out--never knowing for a fact that doing so will land them prospect C. BUT if Cashman has a reputation as a hard-line nut who won't budge (which is how he is viewed right now), well...maybe they will say:

Phils: [sigh] "OK, give us E, F and G...but we want that $$$!"

That sort of leverage means a great deal to a GM. Negotiating for A-Rod's services now would do real damage to Cash's credibility in that dept (unless CRAZY spin were applied, and A-Rod and Boras both offered weepy mea culpas to the FO, press, et al, which I suppose is a possibility).

187 ] I'll try to keep with the analogy. Take case #1, where you've "lost credibility." So the next day I offer you three small marbles for your one big one. You say no, four marbles or there's no deal.

I think, aha - he said that yesterday and I got it for three. So I say no way, I'm only offering three. You have exactly the same choice you had yesterday: make the deal for three, or insist on four and be willing to walk away. What you did yesterday - and what I think it meant - has no bearing.

On the lighter side, a little brilliance from Lohud posters:

CF Jeter
SS Cano
3B Miguel Cabrera
LF Matsui
RF Abreu
C Posada
DH Giambi/Duncan
CF Melky
3B Joe Crede
1B Minky

anyone hear a rumor that A-Rod opted out early so that he could sign a contract before the Mitchell Report got released?

My thought process for Miguel C. was Ian Kennedy, Tyler Clippard and Wilson Betemit.

Miggy Cabrera is so good, but I live in Miami and watching Marlins games you can see him get bigger every at bat, his weight is a MAJOR issue.

You know what sucks.. i go to law school here in boston and im in the library looking at tremont st. where the parade will go down….. thousands of people freaking out …. yet the chant is still YANKEES SUCK…. wonder why

Rob, NY. I have lived in this God forsaken town for a lot of years. Coincidentally, I did not make it to work today. I know you would agree that this is such a classy town with such classy people. Console yourself with this notion: it is actually hilarious that these mean-spirited, vitriolic people cannot enjoy such a wonderful moment without being filled with hatred and spite. It is a parochial, racist and small-minded place with an enormous inferiority complex. Bottom line: no matter the physical beauty, it can never be NY. And they know it.

Good stuff

223 where do you go to school? I went to Suffolk Law (graduated in 96) before they created the new building. Originally from NJ, I've been "stuck" up here since '93. Boston & Mass. aren't so bad, except for the Sux fans.

My only point with Clemens was that we weren't winning based on have two-three absolutely dominant players. The difference between those teams and our current teams is the quality of their 3-4 starters and the back end of their bullpen. Not both those things every year, but overa....

223--Dude (& other dudes) couldja stop with the fantasy trades?

"My thought process for Miguel C. was Ian Kennedy, Tyler Clippard and Wilson Betemit."

My thought process is to trade my three current girlfriends (hey, one's at least a 6.5, and one won "Miss Congeniality") for Jessica Alba.

221 Well, for one thing, that assumes that there's ever a situation analogous to this one. There isn't. You want to establish credibility? Walk away from the next deal. I guarantee it won't be as important as this one.

We could maybe get Miggy for Hughes and Cano--forget the fantasies where we get premium talent without giving it up....

226 Re 223 : Those weren't his thoughts. he was quoting Lohud posters.

203 208 212 The Giambi signing introduced an attitude of "when Plan A fails, open the wallet." In this case, plan A was Nick Johnson, who was being groomed to replace Tino when his contact expired in 2001. But Johnson missed all of 2000 with an injury, so he was "not quite ready" to slide into the starting spot in 2002. Plan B was to acquire Jason Giambi at any cost.

Now Giambi was the best first baseman available, and his patience-with-power approach fit into the Yankee system nicely. The problem was "at any cost." The Yankees made a reckless offer that no other team could come close to. Fallout from the deal:
a) The Yankees are stuck overpaying Giambi in his decline years.
b) The Yankees built up a reputation for reckless spending, weakening their bargaining positions in trades and free agent signings.
c) The Yankees lost draft picks, starting a viscious cycle of needing to fill holes through free agency (and thus losing more draft picks ...).

228 . . . or the Yanks could just wait until he's a free agent after the 2008 season, and outbid everyone for him. The Marlins have no need to trade Cabrera; in fact, they probably need him to keep trying to get that publicly financed stadium they dream about.

And note that Cabrera is NOT represented by Scott Boras, but rather Fernando Cuza & Diego Bentz of SFX. Cuza also represents . . . Mo.

216 This reminds me. The Yankees "Look what happened last year! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" philosophy seems to be mainly with pitching. There's the occasional Womack, but the Wrights and Pavanos and Farnsworths seem to overwhelm that.

Its sort of interesting

230 Much more articulately put, my friend. Nick Johnson has obviously turned out to be a health-risk, but he was also a patient hitter who played good defense and had a good swing for the porch.

I guess I'm just frustrated that it took this long for the idea of building a team from within the organization to set in. Using talent to make trades, rather than just signing the flavor of the year.

226 THREE! Are you sure Jessica's enough woman for you???

conference call scheduled for 4:30.

also, this espn article hints at paul o'neil potentially coaching under girardi:

http://tinyurl.com/yqmj6v

"here are the finer points on how to toss a water cooler... are you listening shelley? i'm talking to you..."

235 "Lift with your legs, dammnit!!"

236 "where's the passion?!? you kids need grit!"

230 "c) The Yankees lost draft picks, starting a viscious cycle of needing to fill holes through free agency (and thus losing more draft picks ...)."

This is somewhat inaccurate. The Yanks did lose their 1st round pick in 2002 for signing Giambi . . . but otherwise, they had a first round pick every year. The real problem was, they drafted very poorly from 1997 to 2003. Here are the Yanks' 1st round picks (and the number of the pick) for those years:

2003 Eric Duncan 27
2001 John-Ford Griffin 23
2000 David Parrish 28
1999 David Walling 27
1998 Andrew Brown 24
1997 *Tyrell Godwin 24

Not a single one of these guys panned out. And only one brought back anything of value in trade - John-Ford Griffin was part of the deal that landed Jeff Weaver. Ouch.

(And the 2005 first pick, CJ Henry, is another bust - except he's the Phillies' problem now, and the Yanks got Abreu as a result, making that not so bad.)

ah! ok, sorry, so 226 should be slightly modified:

"Listen, you moronic basement-dwellin LoHud posters, stop thinking you can trade a large enough supply of your crusty stained socks for an actual woman!"

Credibility is a very general advantage to have, for a bargainer. There are lots of examples that you could give in very different kinds of contexts.

For instance, Theo Epstein used (and then blew) his credibility when he told Bronson Arroyo that if Bronson signed for a lower salary to stay with the Sox, Theo wouldn't trade him. If Bronson hadn't believed that, he wouldn't have taken less money. Theo will never be able to make that move again, of course.

Another example: the Yankees could pull off a sign-and-trade deal for Santana. In negotiations, Santana might think about refusing to sign an extension so he could test the free agency market next year. Cashman could tell him, do that if you want but we won't be buying then and we're offering you this trunk full of money now. But it will make a big difference whether Santana believes Cashman.

240 good point about the possible santana negotiations (and future negotiations in general).

has anyone figured out if we'll get draft picks for what's-his-name?

241 Who?

241 We get picks.

235 Man, that's more than just outside possibility with Paulie:

"According to Olney, one person Girardi would want on his staff would be former Cubs pitcher Mike Harkey, perhaps as pitching coach.

Paul O'Neill told 1050 ESPN New York's Andrew Marchand he "wouldn't rule out" joining Girardi's coaching staff. O'Neill said he and Girardi are longtime friends and they spoke a lot during the season; both worked for YES, the Yankees' television network.

"I will probably talk with him at some point [about a coaching position]," O'Neill said.

O'Neill said he will wait to call Girardi, because he doesn't want to be a nuisance during Girardi's decision-making process."

242 you know... the guy?... he used to wear the number 134 or something...

also, according to the daily news, ca$hman and mo are having a chit-chat in tampa today:
http://tinyurl.com/38nplp

cross your fingers, people.

221 Brilliantly put. Scott Boras underestimated your GM.

243 thanks for the draft info.

i didn't want my comment to suggest paul coaching was more than speculation.

The guy? You mean Karim Garcia???

243 Aren't the first round picks of the top 15 teams in the draft protected though?

MLB Rumors has this as the order:

1. Devil Rays (66-96)
2. Pirates (68-94)
3. Royals (69-93)
4. Orioles (69-93)
5. Giants (71-91)
6. Marlins (71-91)
7. Reds (72-90)
8. White Sox (72-90)
9. Nationals (73-89)
10. Astros (73-89)
11. Rangers (75-87)
12. Athletics (76-86)
13. Cardinals (78-84)
14. Twins (79-83)
15. Dodgers (82-80)

247 no. karim garcia is a household name compared to this guy... the guy i mean likes his ladies extremely muscular, or in a pinch, he'll make out with his checkbook. you know the guy.

248 That is, if one of those 15 teams sign A-Rod, the Yanks will get a supplemental round pick and then that team's second round pick.

I'd much rather have a first round pick, seeing those are so much more valuable.

Girardi & O'Neill?! Wow, the clubhouse just got a bit more intense than under Torre.

248 250 gracias. yes. first round picks are nice, but wasn't joba the 44th pick in the draft? some guys have been dropping due to the large signing bonuses, and the yankees have been scooping them up and forking over the dough.

an early-ish pick can still get you some quality... sometimes...

interesting. i need to look at that list again.

252 Joba was a sandwich pick.

252 De nada. ;) You're right, but other teams have been using the "we'll pay you if you drop in the draft!" strategy too - the Tigers, for example. The Sox and the Mets would also do this (if they don't lose their own 1st round picks).

But in general, the drop-off in talent from the first round to even the supplemental round is huge. I'd prefer the Yanks need not get lucky again, like they did with Joba.

253 heh. that is funny to me.

thanks.

abraham is saying that mattingly will have a conference call with the press at four PM.

i guess that means now.

240 Well, there may be a point to that. At the same time...you're saying that they should walk away from this deal so that they won't have to walk away from the next one. Why not take this one and walk away next time?

Or to put it differently: On the one hand, you've got the possible loss of some credibility. On the other, you've got the sure loss of the entire third baseman. The former is much more easily recouped.

That's especially so because, again, there aren't any situations analogous to this. Santana? They're not trading for him without extension in hand.

Everyone understands negotiating tactics. Everyone understands that sometimes things that are written in stone, aren't. People have been dealing with Brian Cashman for many years and know what his word is worth. Changing his mind in one exceptional, never-to-be-repeated circumstance, won't undo all of that.

257 Funny, didn't Cashman already have a well-publicized changing of his mind? I'm thinking of the signing of Johnny Damon, which caught all of us by surprise.

252 There are always picks that drop, and yes, the Yankees are often able to sign them. It's easy enough to cherry-pick the good players that have been drafted as sandwich picks or second-rounders - for that matter, there's Mattingly and Piazza. But overall, those picks start to become long shots.

JL,
I agree that the loss of cred is not a huge cost. It's a cost, but I believe players and agents are always at least mildly skeptical when dealing with a GM anyway, no matter what his rep.
I agree that they aren't trading for Santana without an extension in hand. My point was that Santana might prefer not to sign an extension. Then Cashman might want to have this leverage: we'll be delighted to add you to the team with an extension; we will not be in the open market for your services next year. And it would be nice if that were a credible threat.

If I thought there were a realistic chance of signing A-Rod, I'd agree with you that the cost is worth paying. Practically any cost is worth paying to land the best player in baseball. But I think it's pretty clear that A-Rod is not interested i signing with the Yankees, because if he were interested then he would have sat down to negotiate a contract extension. He would at least have sat down.

As I've said before, if the market for A-Rod turns out to be surprisingly bad, that changes the circumstances and might change Alex's mind. But I don't expect that to happen, so I think it's extremely unlikely that A-Rod would sign up again. For that reason, I think Cashman shoudn't approach him. There's a cost, and though the potential gain is great it's very unlikely.

Mattingly's call on WFAN right now.

Don being very gracious for the opportunity, praising Girardi, not committing on working for another organization...

Says George never guaranteed him a manager's job when he came back in '04

Thanks, Shaun. And Mattpat, I'm going to agree with 259 here. Hey, Tom Brady was the 199th pick of the draft, but high first-rounders are almost always a whole lot more valuable. And I agree that a first round pick is, for the Yankees, much more valuable than a sandwich pick (wouldn't it be perfect if David Wells were a sandwich pick?) plus a second-rounder. We're looking for potential stars. Potential very good players, we can get those in FA.

258 "I'm thinking of the signing of Johnny Damon..."

Shaun, don't do it! Let the Red Sox pay for him this time.

257 Yes, you're right. I think Cash does have a reserve of credibility, and this is a special situation. Yes, I'm changing my tune.

And remember, "Bubba Crosby is out center fielder" turned out to be...not true, but no one thinks of Cash as being full of shit...just a good negotiator.

I still do NOT think the Yankees will pursue Rodriguez, though.

260 I think we generally agree. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the Yankees go running after Rodriguez; yeah, let Boras come to them. But when he does, they should listen. That's not so much a matter of principle as another negotiating tactic.

They don't even have to do any public backing off from their stance. Boras already doesn't believe them, so there's no reason he would start now. He sees it as a ploy, so if he's interested he probably will come to them. One way or another, he wants to get the Yankees into the mix, even if it's just to drive the price up.

So keep saying the same thing, don't run after him - but I hope that, behind closed doors, they're ready to deal if possible.

258 Where did he backpedal on that one? I recall him saying that Crosby was the CF as of now (before the Damon signing) and he didn't want to meet Damon's demands of 7 years +. He didn't change on those things.

262 wouldn't it be perfect if David Wells were a sandwich pick?

Excellent. But hey, if they can swing a deal for Miguel Cabrera, that might be just as good...

263 Wouldn't it be funny RI, if the Sox did re-sign Lowell, which the fans so desperately want - and then he totally crapped the bed? Meanwhile Damon remained reasonably productive in '08 and '09? I'd laugh.

261 Thanks, pete.

266 But he didn't include the "as of now" qualifier, or anything like that.

267 Sadly, Wells was the first pick of the second round in 1982. I'm not sure if there was a "sandwich" round back then - it seems like there was, as the first round had 29 picks by b-r.com - but if so, he just missed it.

I'm guessing that's the last sandwich he ever missed! (bah-dum-dum)

266 A quick scan of the Times articles says you're right. They never said they weren't interested, just that they didn't want to sign him to that long a deal.

Cashman did say that he was prepared to go into the season with Crosby as the CF, I believe. That was an outright lie, but everyone knew it so it didn't matter that much.

261 Russo feels like he has to interrupt the call every 5 minutes with his dumb thoughts, so maybe everyone's best bet is to listen to the uncut version on LoHud later.

263 It would be. But I bet it is widely agreed in GM circles now that Lowell is going to be overpaid. Which I guess means maybe he won't be overpaid. But anyway, Theo won't give him anything like what he right now thinks he's worth -- Cashman is more likely to do that (because of great need), and I doubt he'll do it.

Sox fans just love Lowell. I have a friend who's a Sox fan who says he will switch to the Cubs if the Sox sign A-Rod. And he just loves Lowell. (Lowell is a great dude, so he's easy to love.)

272 Why the Cubs? Didn't your friend just get over his lifetime-of-losing complex like three years ago? Why would he want another one?

Must be a glutton for punishment... ;)

272 As much as it's hard to imagine Rodriguez coming back to the Yankees after this, it's damn near impossible to imagine him going to Boston. Can you imagine if he gets off to a slow start, or if the team doesn't win the WS next year? (Which they probably won't, no matter what.)

The times they are a-changin', eh, Team?

My head is still spinning.

Might not stop for a year or so; I'm not too good with change.

273 It's natural, come on. I'm sure there's nothing like that rush of breaking an eighty-something year drought. Once you get it, you want another...

Whoever is saying that signing Giambi was the moment of doom for the Yankynasty, is wrong. Giambi was the right pick up. The length of his contract was dumb but getting him was the right move. His deteriorating health was unfortunate.

274 Slow start in Boston or not, he'll never get worse than what Yankee fans gave him in 2006. I hope they're all happy now.

274 If his reason for not signing with NYY is the fan pressure, yeah, he'd have to be really stupid indeed to move to Fenway. Yikes.
If they could cash out Matsuzaka, I think they'd take a run at him anyway. But the Henry bank account, though large, is not like the Steins'. I think that kind of commitment is too scary for them, too risky.

272 yes. lowell is revered in these here parts. my friends gush endlessly. he's been great for the sox and the press love him, too.

here is my favorite lowell story of the season:
http://tinyurl.com/2scxuy

i try not to buy into this sappy human interest stuff, but this was pretty alright.

277 Agreed. It's the same with Mussina: if the vastly superior Yankees win in 2003, then all of those moves would have been deemed a success. The length of the contract was dumb, but that is the luxury the Yankees have--to pay too much for too long (whether it's Giambi or Bernie) in order to obtain and keep such players. But overall, they were good moves that more or less worked out. Giambi has been productive when healthy (leading the team in OPS three times, for example), and he was particularly valuable at the start of his contract, as expected.

280 i just noticed that it was archived. sorry. a girl died in a wreck an hour or so after telling her dad that she couldn't wait to see the sox game and her favorite player, lowell, that weekend.

she's killed in a car crash. the family goes to the game, because that's what she'd have wanted. lowell comes up, her dad closes his eyes and hopes that lowell will hit a HR for his daughter. he does. the ball is caught by a family member.

lowell hears the story from a reporter, sends them an autographed jersey and a letter promising to hit another one for her.

they bury her with the jersey, and that night he hits another HR.

that's the basic story.

Well, that is a nice story. I didn't know Lowell was that kind of guy, but I liked him the most of any of the Sox anyway.

Potential solutions for third base: David Eckstein and Miguel Cairo filed for FA:

http://tinyurl.com/2uaa8d

It makes me wonder why Gammons didn't mention is in his rip on A-Rod.

284 can we make that post mysteriously disappear?

284 I seem to remember Luis Vizcaino getting a key hit against the Mets. Is he still in baseball? Maybe he can learn third.

285 i'm sure that meant to.

286 You can't 134 my 284 !!!

287 You mean that off-field single to win it in extras?

That was nice.

289 but someone can.

my only hope is that they do.

291 That's not nice : (

290 It sure was. But in general he had trouble with hitting water when out-of-boat-falling.

281 You can say that the signing was the right move at the time, but in hindsight, we didn't win in '03 and he has been basically damaged goods for at least half of his yankee years. He's never approached the batting average or slugging average that he had in Oakland. And maybe I have an undue animosity towards him, but I have always disliked the mercenary of the moment mentality of building a ball club.

281 You can say that the signing was the right move at the time, but in hindsight, we didn't win in '03 and he has been basically damaged goods for at least half of his yankee years. He's never approached the batting average or slugging average that he had in Oakland. And maybe I have an undue animosity towards him, but I have always disliked the mercenary of the moment mentality of building a ball club.

and sorry for my sticking enter key

284 Fortunately, it seems BFOG+ has gone out the window, as a metric used by the Yankees.

If Torre goes to the Dodgers, however, the DT crew might want to get ready for the Miguel Cairo era. I also hear that Tanyon Sturtze is an available free agent . . .

287 I think you meant Jose . . .

298 yes.

re: 3B solutions .... Hensley Meulens is only 40.

BAM-BAM!!!

Cashmoney just praised Girardi's ability to teach the kiddos.

I hope he teaches them all to bunt, make contact and take the motherfucker up the middle!

Yeeee-haw!!!

297 As a West Coaster I'm actually looking forward to Joe napping in the CA sun. I think Juan Pierre's BFOG+ rating might be unchartable.

Pete Abe is reporting that the Yanks are sitting down today with Mo AND his agent, which, as he suggests, usually only happens when a deal is imminent.

if Mo signs today or soon, won't that make A-Rod look even more of the clown? And if Mo signs soon, you can bet your ass Posada will sign soon as well...

284 More seriously, what about Mike Lamb? He was contending for the 3B spot (along with Cairo and Wilson) when the Yanks signed A-Rod. .289/.366/.453 is serviceable. .307/.361/.475 (his 2006 line) is better. As a lefty pull hitter, his 11-14 homers should increase to 17-20 in Yankee Stadium.

300 Drew Henson is only 27 (and I think he was recently cut by the Vikings)...

Speaking of can't miss prospects...

We could move Eric Duncan back to third now that he is no longer "blocked" by Mr. Optober.

303 Wow, great point! I don't know a lot about the Dodgers, who else do they have with high BFOG+ rankings? Nomar, Kent for sure - do they still have Luis Gonzalez?

I'm kind of enjoying thinking about a season where ability and results, not BFOG+, dictates who plays all year. As far as we know, there are no "Joe's guys" for this Joe. This could be a lot of fun.

via pete abe: pena just accepted a spot on the staff! not sure if it's bench coach, 1B or 3B, catching instructor, etc...

hopefully Mo signs today and Po soon thereafter. then, pettitte can re-up and we'll pick up boBBy. when's the deadline on picking up abreu's option?

via pete abe: pena just accepted a spot on the staff! not sure if it's bench coach, 1B or 3B, catching instructor, etc...

hopefully Mo signs today and Po soon thereafter. then, pettitte can re-up and we'll pick up boBBy. when's the deadline on picking up abreu's option?

dammit - double whammy. wasn't that last thread? sowwy 'bout that... gotta run, ya won't have me to kick around anymore! ; )

307 Listening to Girardi it suddenly flashed into my head as a premonition that he might deal with Derek head-on.

I'd love to see him swagger in and clean up the town, starting with getting Derek to take one for the team.

I know, I know, it'll never happen. But it should.

And Jesus, I wish Derek would just step up and volunteer to switch before he embarrasses himself even more than he already is.

307 I'm pretty sure I read that Lu-Gon already burned his Dodger bridge (as he's been known to do). He should have kept those thoughts to himself instead of making sour-grape whine right after the season ended.

In other news, who will they get to replace Joe up in the booth, and Paulie too, presuming he's back in uniform?

I'd love a Darling and Hernandez type tandem, though there probably isn't one out there.

Thats a whole nother point we haven't discussed and which make a lot of sense. Move Jeter to 3B where he belongs, and play the A.G. at ss. Won't happen, but a man can dream

Uh. What would Girardi be doing when he started with Derek to take one for the team??

Oh, move him to 3B?
That doesn't sound like a good idea at all. His range to the first base side is bad, which is death for a 3B. And we'd then have to replace him with the AG. That sounds like a very serious OPS hit to me.

316 I don't care where they move him, so long as it's away from his current locale.

You can never tell if the LoHud people are kidding:

"I'd like to recommend the secondary coaching positions:

Paul O'Neil – Atitude Coach
Scott Brosius – Over acheiving coach
Bernie Williams – Clutch Coach
Micky Rivers – Media Relations Coach"

Also, how is Torre a good fit for the Dodgers, at all? They need someone who is willing to play kids. Cashman often had to force Torre's hand. Does Colletti have the guts to do that?

317 But you'd lose so much batting from your SS. I think it's a very bad idea, unless/until you find the next Tejada.

295 Of course, they didn't have hindsight when they signed him. They needed a first baseman, and Giambi was the best offensive player in the league - OPS+ of 153, 187, 198 the previous three years. He was the right choice.

Yes, the contract was too long and the money too high, but that was what it took to get the deal done. And for that matter, he hasn't really been a bust with the Yankees - two bad years, but four pretty darn good ones. This is a guy who hits .253 and still puts up an OPS+ of 148.

Even then, Nick Johnson's injuries were a concern. He was actually a bigger risk than Giambi, albeit a cheaper one.

319 Actually, it's a prefect fit - Colletti supposedly doesn't like playing the kids either - that's why he keeps going after the Jeff Kents of the world.

Pete Abe posted something about the nation's phone system crashing because Cashman was talking so much - my mom said she was trying to call me several times before she got through and it kept saying there was no phoneline available. Cashman get off the phone!!!

322 We've been having problems with our phone lines here at work today... Hmmm, who could Cashman be calling in Alabama? Could it be... Andy Phillips at third?

or could it be that he is trying to offer me a position as bench coach? What a day for these dang phones to go on the fritz...

Jason Giambi used to be a 3B.

At the time I had bad feeling about signing Giambi, but could have worked out well. I was uninterested in huge free agent signings coming back to bite the Yankees in the ass. I saw a 30 year old guy coming off of two incredible years getting a 7 year deal and thinking that those last two years could be ugly.

320 Bah.

If you say so.

So you're telling me I gotta suck it up, eh?

Bah, I say again.

How likely is it that the Yankees go after Bonds this offseason. The Yankees could gravy-train off of Bonds' run at Oh's home run record of 868. With the short RF porch, Bonds could make a run at the record in two years time. I believe Bonds really wants to take a shot at the home run record.
vr, Xei

325 Fraid so. Cheer yourself up with the inside-out swing.

326 Great, let's give him what, say seven years?

Let the good times roll.

327 :)

321 Thanks for a little perspective and fact. Jason was indeed 'derailed' by the steroid/health issues, and that has hurt his overall performance, but the guy has still posted some very excellent numbers. I believe he is well liked in the clubhouse too. A .971 OPS and 37 HRs for 2006 is none to shabby.

323 As soon as you get a phoneline you should put a call in to Cashman to see what's up.

324 I would like to see footage of that again to make sure we were not all hallucinating :)

325 Maybe we will just have to suck it up for another year or two or three (okay maybe forever)

331 Bah.

As much as a loathe BLB I think a Piazza-esque "disrespectful" deal might be ok.

330 I guess I'm in the minority on this. And he HAS put up some big numbers. I just don't think we have much to show for them.

332 Where would you like to see Jeter move himself? Just curious . . .

334 I'm in the minority with you - I am aware of his numbers - but they just don't seem to have any meaning or translate into anything else

335 into the hole

Pete's got Donnie's call up for those interested

337 He already does that . . .

335 That's a fine question. I don't know, LF or 1B, I suppose.

337 ha ha ha hah ah!!

More like up the middle, but point taken.

331 Maybe we will just have to suck it up for another year or two or three (okay maybe forever)

I think you're right. The time will come when Derek is just too old (ie too slow) to play SS, but he'll probably play it at least some of the time until he retires. The rest of the time, he'll be at DH. I can't see him at 1B - how many balls will go down the line?

There just isn't anywhere else for an aging, slow, poor ranging Jeter to play.

C'est la vie. =) (I think we'll live.)

333 If Girardi is creative enough, and I believe he is, he could squeeze plenty of PAs out of a Duncan/Giambi/Bonds/Matsui/Damon/LIDR? 1B/LF/DH platoon. That could be a monster.

340 I've though about the same thing . . . except we have a glut of unmoveable (immovable?) LFers. Offensively, as has been said here before, he'd be a league avg. 1B.

339 ha - i think cf - i don't think the yanks will continue to have to score as many runs to win as they did this year because pitching should (has to) improve the next few years, but i don't think we can get away with the 1b, lf corner outfiled production as some of the other positions (c, 3b) are not going to continue to be so high - and it shouldn't be this hard to get a good hitting 1b and lf

343 thought*

334 I've never been a big Giambi fan, and was very much against his signing, but I've since made my peace with him.

He is what he is.

He did hit those two very big dingers off of Pedro in Game 7, for which I'll always remember him.

But I'm just not a fan of grabbing the big free agents generally. I tend to find it boring.

I like the David Justice, Bobby Abreu-level pick-ups when we really need to plug a hole.

Otherwise, I'd rather have seen us try to go with Johnson.

I also hate the DH, so there you have it.

342 [344} I'm all for platooning, but I'd really like to see one of Damon, Matsui or Giambi go, especially if Bonds is even a possiblity.

Jetes in CF might still preserve his ego . . .

344 * actually i take that back - shaunp is right - it will probably have to be dh even if weeping for brunnhilde hates it (the dh)

Speaking of which, just an open poll . . .

Which current Yankees would you like to see wearing anything but Pinstripes in '08?

348 Great! That makes how many?

346 Interesting--big name free agents bother you, but you like when the Yankees scoop up very good players in salary dumps.

BTW, I'm not a fan of the DH either (intellectually), but I sure hate watching pitchers bat. I guess I'm never satisfied...

350 at least 10 - if he can chase down flyballs as well as damon did last year it could work, but if not, i'm not sure how to justify it
but i don't see them moving him next year for sure and 2009 is a maybe when we would be rid of a few of those dhs

349 what are you asking - who we want to get rid of?

352 Yes

322 Coletti is an idiot, but Kent was signed either by DePo or whoever preceded him. Also Kent is a MONSTER hitter at second. 302/375/500 at age 39.

353 well, i'm assuming we don't have to worry about how this will actually happen but are merely making a wish list - my two priorities are kyle and giambi

355 I would agree . . . and I must add Matsui to that list.

354 yes, my bad - yeah kent's #s are great for his age/position, but it is my understanding that coletti keeps doing things that end up blocking the young players - kent was not the right example - just his rant about the young players made me use him

Interesting read here: http://tinyurl.com/38x7vo

It's about the aforementioned Dodger love for vets. They may be looking to move Kemp or Ethier for a proven vet. So, of course, my mind went quickly to Abreu for Kemp. Seems I wasn't the only one as it was discussed on the thread back in September.

Man, would I love to have Kemp on the roster. Power, speed and lots of years left. This has got to be on Cash's radar, right?

356 yeah i can see that - he was very frustrating to watch for much of this season - but i am holding out hope that he can be a productive dh getting about 2/5 - 3/5 of the abs there (and the rest of the time on the bench - not in lf)

358 I've heard that they might want to send Kemp and Kershaw to Minn. for Santana

359 Wouldn't you think, though that it might be possible to get some quality for him before his bat erodes completely?

358 I'd try a number of veteran presence trades with LA.

361 yeah - i'm all for trading the sharp decliners for some type of quality

and going back to discussions of trying to trade giambi/matsui/damon et al - i have read a lot of people state they have complete or partial no trade clauses and thus will be untradeable - if any one of them is told he will basically be a bench player next year, don't you think they would waive their no trade clause?

355 Oh my God, I forgot all about fucking Kyle.

Is he still on the team?

358 Steve Kemp?

What year is this?

And who was Danny Heap?

Anyone remember Danny Heap?

364 oh yes - the torture continues

365 http://tinyurl.com/29jgl6

Reading all this has my head swimming.
Please, Don't anybody bring Barry Bonds into this. There is still a good chance the guy ends up in jail for lying to the grand jury.
Second, Joe Torre is gone and the Front Office handled it badly. So what else is new? Joe Girardi is the manager for the next 3 years. I say "The King is dead, long live the King". Girardi was a clearly a better pick than Mattingly, hands down. Both have terrific work ethic but Girardi handles people better, will be smooth with the NY press and he's smart (B.S in Engineering from Northwestern). As for moves, let's see if Cashman can walk the walk or he goes too. I hope he can figure out a way to get rid of a couple of older, expensive guys (Giambi in particular) and land us some pitching for the bullpen. I'm looking forward to next season. 2007 sucked.

324 That is pretty amazing - he even played it in the majors (unlike Posada at 2b).

Jeter at 3B? Fortunately, a 3B doesn't have to cover the same ground to his left that a SS does. As long as he can react quickly and dive for the ball...oh, wait. Never mind.

A good 5 years ago, as Bernie started to slip defensively, I was touting the idea of Jeter in CF. I still think it would have been a great fit. Too late now, I'm afraid.

334 But that is not his fault. If you post a .971 OPS with a decent RISP, what more can you do for you team? This concept that a great player is 'not really' great if his team doesn't win is nuts.

If you want to look at a Tennis player with great Serve stats, and a great backhand, but diss him because he doesn't win tornaments, thats fine. But baseball is a team sport.
A team of 25 players. 25. 25 players. 25. One guy, like ARod this year, CAN carry a team... it does happen... but that is not a requirement for a great year.

'I just don't think we have much to show for them.'
Remember Donnie Mattingly
'I just don't think we have much to show for them.'
Remember Donnie Mattingly
'I just don't think we have much to show for them.'
Remember Donnie Mattingly

367 "Both have terrific work ethic but Girardi handles people better..."

What evidence is this based on? Girardi's one year as manager when he clashed with the crazy owners? Or Mattingly's no years as manager? Or both of their uneventful tenures as bench coaches?

I think the fact that O'Neill would consider coaching for Girardi and returning to the grind speaks volumes about Joe Girardi. That news really pumps me up.

363 You know Damon would waive a no trade because he's said all along he really wants to be a every game player. I forgot about KF (he who must not be named). He MUST go!

363 That may sound good in theory (though I'm not even sure of that). In practice, I can think of at least a dozen reasons why it wouldn't work.

369 Exactly so. And I'd add: there's just no such thing as a useless 148 OPS+.

I am a BIG Torre supporter. Not because of his managerial moves, but because of what be brought to the entire franchise.
But I agree...
"The King is dead, long live the King".
I'm ready to move on.
(but these muthas better be in the PS in 2008)

Shouldn't we have heard something about Mo by now?
Is this a bad sign?

376 Dude, you gotta calm down! If the sky is falling, we'll surely hear it crash in the next day or so. Until then no need to read tea leaves or look for bad omens.

re: the Farnsworthless talk.

Isn't it about time for that man to have one of his flukey, outlier, unexpectedly good seasons?
You figure one of these years he'll put up numbers like 2001 and 2005. Right? He's given us two shitty seasons, how about a good one huh?

366 Cheers.

when told that Joe Torre would be managing him again, Everday Scott Proctor began weeping.

Just focus on pitching and ONE right handed bat.

Well... between yesterday's post and this one, we have about 1200 posts.

Score: ARod related: 1193, Girardi and Donnie 7.
Once again, ARod insists on being the center of attention. He simply will not allow any of us to talk about anything but him. It's still all about ARod.

So I say this, maybe for the last time, for I don't know if Banter decorum will allow this much longer.

It's ARods fault! :-)

Check out the new Dodger Thoughts thread. Hysterical.

Robert Goulet died...It's Arod's fault!

382 Yep--I guess FO dysfunction is not restricted to the east coast...

A little reminiscence care of MetsBlog -- a clip from when Joe Torre was fired as their manager.

http://www.metsblog.com/2007/10/30/watch-torre-fired-as-mets-manager/

If you only vaguely remember the 80s like I do, it's a weird thing to watch.

382 GREAT STUFF!
"If this is accurate, then McCourt has officially become George Steinbrenner West.
I always laughed at those Yankees soap operas: "Not my team," I said. "My Dodgers would never be that stupid."

Hey... do ya think if we give them some insights into Torre, they will SEND DONNIE BACK?

So, WEEI and the Boston Herald each ran polls: would you rather have A-Rod as your 3B, or Mike Lowell?
Lowell in a landslide. In the WEEI poll he got 98% of the votes. In the Herald poll it was a mere 95%.

Chowderheads. You gotta love 'em.

385 I don't know if anyone remembers this but back in 1982 (when Torre managed the Braves) the Braves released a documentary after the season called, "It's a long way to October". Then after the 1983 season, they did the same thing called, "Tale of Two Seasons"...

I can't remember if they were 1 hour, 2 or even 3, but I remember they were unbearably long and consisted of replaying the season highlights interspliced with Torre sitting in his office explaining a losing streak (or bad Bullpen decision) to Ted Turner...

I started to write this post with an actual point, but I can't find one now. Perhaps it's that I ate at Big Bob Gibson's BBQ in Decatur today, and was thinking of Gibson the pitcher, who was Torre's pitching coach in Atlanta. It's apropos of nothing.

I can't be the only one who had a perverted thought after reading 337 and 339 .

388 That was really cool, because there you were, describing really long and pointless boring documentaries, and your entry turned out to be kind of long, definitely pointless, and even, at times, a little boring.

Actually, it reminded me of that Weird Al song where he gets lost in the middle and tries to remember what his point was. And then it turns out that the point is that he hates sauerkraut.

390 but that's the point I LIKE sauerkraut!!!!!!

388 389 390 My mental collapse is Arod's fault. First he spoiled the series for the sox, then that swine killed Robert Goulet and now he's eaten into my brain.

391 Fair enough.
Now write an entry about "Bang the Drum Slowly" only make sure that your comment turns out to be really maudlin, so all the Banterers feel very sad but at the same time manipulated.

388 Here's a great clip from that documentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW0DQvsEii0

What happened to that fiery guy? ;-)

393 I'll work on it RI Yank.

394 nice clip...is it the fans' fault that the damn fence broke?

I like how Torre walks from the mound without an arm swing, just like Joe Friday.

382 Seriously, has anyone introduced them to BFOG+ yet? 'Cuz if not, they may be in for a bumpy ride . . .

389 i realized that after i wrote it. i also had an idiot coach when i was in high school that used to mess terms up all the time and he used to say going into the hole instead of going in the middle and i used to make fun of him so much that i became as stupid as him

388 i think there is a branch of bob gibson's in huntsville - what did you get from there?

394 396 even looking at 07 torre compared to 96 torre is different but 82 torre is really something else

Am I the only one who thinks Torre going to LA hurts their chances of landing Arod?

Wow- Torre's getting 5 million a year for 3 years. This guy's clout goes coast to coast.

397 i just read a few of their comments and someone was aware of cairo, so i think they are bracing themselves

398 Hey Ms. October. I was in Huntsville for work today and on the way home I stopped in Decatur (a slight detour). If I'd known there was on in H-ville, I'd have gone to that one. I got the BBQ pork plate (outside meat) with cole slaw and chips. I used all four sauces (Red BBQ, White, Mustard and Habanero). GOOD STUFF. I had the top down on I-65 the rest of the way home and it got cold.

And, to make this pertinent to the blog, I thought about Bob Gibson and subsequently thought about Joe Torre.

So... anyone know when they announce the next Yankees manager?

402 good save with bob gibson. yum - i think the one in decatur is supposed to be better - i'm pretty sure it's the original one.

398 speaking of juvenile humor - We used to have a gym coach who loved to announce who was "at bat", who was "on deck" and who was "in the hole". Whenever this kid named "Brown" was in the hole, me and my buddy Randall would look at each other and start snickering.

404 yes, it was excellent. It's my favorite BBQ in Alabamy.

Wow, I can't believe that the Dodgers are giving Joe $15 million for 3 years. That is some serious money for a non-Yankee manager, especially from a cheap owner like Frank McCourt. Good for Joe.

399 probably doesn't help, if it is between dodgers and someone else and other factors being equal the dodgers probably lose out, but if they pony up it won't stop him from going there - he probably only has 3 years of him anyway

405 nice

406 yeah - i haven't been there in years, but it was always really good

Cashman better watch Girardi like a hawk with the Yankees young pitchers. The national media made Girardi out to be a victim of front office politics in Florida, but he earned that firing fair and square. Girardi also isn't good with the media so I hope that he changes that or things will get ugly fast.

134 135 Did anyone notice that the esteemed post #134 was a double-post? Does that make up for last week and make the poster "Even Steven"?

408 let me know where to send the sauce, or Dreamland if you prefer!

409 Pete Abe seemed to think Girardi was very diplomatic in his conference call with the NY media today, and is going to be careful.

407 If I was Joe Torre, the only thing I'd be worried about is getting canned next year. The McCourts seem to have no plan at all, and no aversion to firing people willy-nilly. Today's flavor of the day could quickly become tomorrow's trash - just ask Grady Little.

As long as they pay him though, I'm guessing Torre won't really give a damn.

407 I will be very curious how Torre does. I was obviously not a huge fan of his in NY, though I was probably far too critical most of the time. But he is taking over an odd, underachieving team in LA--very different from the club he inherited in 1996. I wonder if the team will play to his strengths as a manager, or not. They have Scott Proctor and four guys with 60+ to 80+ appearances in the BP. It will be interesting to see how that plays out next season. And nothing can fix 668 ABs of Juan Pierre--does Torre continue to bat him leadoff, or will his calm demeanor charm his new 8 million dollar #8 hitter. Int-er-est-in'.

413 I've read suggestions that Little didn't really garner much respect from the players. If nothing else, that should change under Torre.

the difference in Girardi pre Marlins and post Marlins is significant. He was handed his ass/walking papers in Miami, and he deserved it. It will be interesting to see if he can keep his ego in check in pinstripes.......because make no mistake Cash will be breathing down his neck since Cash himself is out of options after 2008. It will be interesting indeed.

412 Yeah, he was diplomatic. Between him and Cashman, they managed to talk a lot without saying a damn thing.

The best moment I heard was when Hank was asked if hiring Girardi meant that George - a known Mattingly lover - had less influence and was in the background now. Hank hemmed and hawed a bit, talked about how important Mattingly is to the Steinbrenner family, stammered a bit more, said that this was really the time to ask Brian and Joe questions, and ended up by saying that he fully supported Cashman's decision. Still hemming and hawing.

416 The most interesting thing was that not one reporter directed a question to Hank after that, which I thought was weird. It was almost as if the media was intimidated by his statement.

2) I think LA is the perfect fit for Torre. He get's the guaranteed money he was looking for and also a town where he can still enjoy his celebrity. Even better, he moves into a much more laid back organization and less demanding media. Something tells me that Torre will be happier in LA. I am glad that both he and the Yankees are better off. Also, by joining LA, I am sure Joe will be selected as an All Star Game coach, meaning he'll get to make a farewell appearance at Yankee Stadium after all. I am sure the applause will be thunderous. I have a feeling Arod will be received much less warmly.

3)The best news from today was the following statement from Mattingly. It made me feel much better about having Donnie say goodbye.

""I don't feel any ill will. I'm not sitting here -- vengeance is not running through me at all," Mattingly said. "Trust me, I'm not all of a sudden going to start rooting for the Red Sox."

417 I guess most organizations are more laid back than the Yankees. On the other hand, if what Pete Abe reports is true, then the Dodgers were already negotiating with Torre while Little was still under contract, then compelled him to "resign." I'm not convinced the Dodgers organization is all that laid back, despite its proximity to the Pacific ocean.

I was happy about MAttingly's statement as well. Now, if he still wants to manage the Yankees some day, what do you think his next move will be? Stay with the team in some capacity (or at least return next year)? Take a MiL managing position? Or follow Torre to LA and get more experience as a bench coach?

416 ......saying he was diplomatic is an understatement.....New Joe is always sounding like he's saying something meaningful and straightforward, but not really saying much at all since he came back from the Marlins.

418 At some point, he needs to manage. I just can't see another organization viewing him as their top candidate, however. Perhaps he can step in for Joe when he inevitably retires (He'll be over 70! when this deal expires), but I think his best bet would be to manage in the minors for a few seasons and see how Girardi does. Worst case scenario, he'd have a more impressive resume for the next job opening.

Via Pete:

"This is not yet official, but it appears the coaching staff will shake out this way:

Pitching: Dave Eiland

Hitting: Kevin Long

Bench: Rob Thomson

Third base: Bobby Meacham

First base/catching: Tony Pena

Bullpen: Mike Harkey"

421 I like Eiland and Long. The one theme here is youth, which I think is good.

It's really not that important, but boy has the star power of the Yankee coaches diminished. In 12 years, we've gone from Randolph, Chambliss, Mel, Roy White, Mattingly and Guidry to...Bobby Meacham? If Meach gets a runner thrown out at the plate, will Hank demote him to Trenton? :)

Meacham, you may recall, was a SS, so he replaces Bowa as IF coach as well, I would guess.

423 Ah...the smooth fielding and soft handed Meacham teaches his craft to the young ones...

according to Wikpidea........

Meacham was the Yankees regular shortstop in 1985 playing in 156 out of 162 games. However, injuries and generally inconsistent play relegated him to a utility role and time in the minors. Yankees owner George Steinbrenner was particularly frustrated with Meacham's lackluster play and often lambasted him in the New York press.

425 But he did lead the league in sac bunts once or twice, which would make Weeping happy!!

426 anything to make weeping happy.

423 Yes...Meacham, who was responsible for my learning the meaning of the word adequate.

For those who don't remember old #20, Meacham's two biggest claims to fame with the Yankees were:

1) Making two key errors during the 1984 season (I believe) and then being demoted two levels down to AA.

2) Being thrown out along with Dale Berra at a rare double play at home plate as Rickey Henderson stood on second base with both hands on top of his head in disbelief.

..this is truelly a new Yankees era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Thomson

Just a hunch, but I get the feeling that both Girardi and Thomson are more inclined to favor stats than Torre was. Absolutely no proof for this.

Another interesting theme is that this staff seems to have more of a scouting back ground. I know Eiland and Thomson have held scouting roles, and I believe Harkey has as well. I think the goal here is to craft a staff that is younger, more open to new ideas and more capable of evaluating talent.

430 without doubt new Joe was a numbers animal w/ the Marlins. His difficulties lie with his ego and his aggressiveness/overzealousness. It will be interesting to see how it plays with veterans.

Has anyone heard a Kevin Kouzmanoff rumor? He OPS'd .859 after April last year. His overall line (.786) might lower his value. He's only 25 to boot, and hit a decent 18 HR in Petco.

I know they like Quest. Igawa + Clippard? Betemit/Duncan would be a decent to good 1B platoon.

Actually, looking at these numbers: Kouzmanoff OPS'd .972 vs. lefties (awesome) but .706 vs. righties (garbage). But most importantly, does SD have anyone else for 3B, because we certainly can't give them anything.

433 OK, I think that proposal was ridiculous.

Cano won't move to 3B: http://tinyurl.com/29qsau

Good, his bat is incredibly valuable at second, and his defense is outstanding.

433 Yeah, The Pads are NOT going to trade Kouz. Living here in SD, hes not only already quite popular, but hes pretty much their whole offense...

I really like that coaching lineup, except for maybe Meachum, but as I said with the Bowa deal, 3B coaches don't really make THAT much of an impact

I'm surprised that Pena wasn't given the bench coach job. Thomson is intriguing since he seems like a guy who to us fans was invisible. Really interesting staff. I definitely hope that it holds true that Long and Eiland are going to be here in those roles.

Got this from Girardi's wiki page:

"Earlier in the season, he threw Marlins pitcher Scott Olsen against the dugout wall after Olsen complained about not being given enough time to warm up on the mound by the umpire. This episode was also seen on TV."

I'm scared.

oh, and I totally remember Meacham. I was taken aback reading that on LoHud when Pete said that he knew nothing about him. But then, Pete isn't really a Yankees fan by birth or anything is he?

417 The ovation that Torre gets whenever he first sets foot in New Yankee Stadium will turn the place into dust. It will be unreal. He really comes out of this smelling like $15 million roses.

Why they didn't get along:

"According to eyewitnesses and footage captured, the Marlins owner began heckling the homeplate umpire during a game. When the umpire warned Girardi about the harassment, Girardi and his bench coach Gary Tuck then turned to Loria and told him to "shut the f* up.""

Would Hank ever heckle in a game??? I don't think so...but I guess you never know.

440 Torre's cheers > Arod's boos?

On the topic of Girardi's temper, someone should arrange for him to have a long dinner with Tom Coughlin.

442 I think so. I think it will be like when the Beatles first showed up in America.

437 Thomson got the bench coach job b/c of his work on scouting and giving notes, which Torre relied on.

As for Torre smelling like roses, well, Torre sure should advocate the fans cheer A-rod too, since without what he did for Joe, despite his treatment, Joe wouldn't have made the playoffs and gotten that "insulting" offer at all...

Also, has anyone heard anything about Abreu? I think they need to pick up his option tomorrow or the day after.

445 Dude, Torre won 4 rings before A-Rod ever showed up. He would have gone down as a Yankee Diety based on that alone.

438 Well, Olsen has problems. If Girardi did something like that to Dontrelle Willis, then I'd be scared.

436 My thoughts exactly. I liked Bowa and don't know much about BM, but the rest looks good. Thomson looks like a smart dude.

Wow... From old and traditional to young and smart almost overnight. Maybe this will be an interesting year... especially if we win any ballgames.

409 415 how do you know that he deserved it? were you there?

Dear Mr. Cashman,

Please do not bother with Torii Hunter and his 33 year old, .325 OBP.

Love,

Schteeve

wow, according to pete abe, torre is not only bringing mattingly with him to LA, but bowa and maybe mazzilli, too. i guess this was bowa's "family committment" as to why he was waiting to take the M's job?!

Yankees West...

426 427 ha ha hah ah aha!!

I remember a game in what...1985?...when we were playing Toronto I think it was in like September.

We are three or four games back, playing at home needing a big series to make a move.

Meacham, attempting to throw a runner out at home threw the ball up onto the backstop.

At least, that's how I remember it.

The whole series was a disaster.

I don't suppose anyone recalls that?

weeping, I've spent good money on analysis and the guy concluded that I would never be able to forget Yankee shortstops of the 1980s....

454 ha ha ha ha haha h a ah ah ah a ha hah ah ah ah a!!!

Speaking of which, I had three autographs as a kid. The first two were of Reggie Jackson and Bucky Dent. My dad managed to procure them through work (he was a reporter).

Ah, but the third I got at the Stadium, hanging out by the dugout before the game.

The guy signed the bill of my Yankee cap which turned out to be a bad idea because it faded before long from the perspiration.

The player?

Andre Robertson.

452 See, now this is starting to bug me. I think its indicative of Torre's tendencies as a manager. He's treading the entire crew out there to LA, his veterans who have experience. Heck, combine that with Scottie Proctor and Torre might at times forget that he's managing the Dodgers and not the Yankees.

449 How can you be an old Yankees fan and not remember Bobby Meachum?

Man, I hated that guy as a kid. I can't believe he is back. I guess it is better than Randy Velarde...

457 Maybe he meant about his coaching? Meacham has been bouncing around coaching and managing at various levels for a decade or so, the last two years in the bigs.

455 When I was younger we would go down to Florida during mid-winter recess to visit my grandparents (who spent their winters there). One year they were in Ft Lauderdale so they took me to see the Yankees' spring training workout. I got one autograph that day -- my very first one, at that -- from Andre Robertson.

459 :)