Baseball Toaster was unplugged on February 4, 2009.
Over the past several years, I've had more than a few skeptical out-of-towners ask me why Don Mattingly is such a big deal in New York. On a superficial level, it's like asking a Cubs fan why Ernie Banks, or Ryne Sandburg are popular in Chicago: they were all great players on losing teams. Okay, so Mattingly didn't have a great career, but from 1984-1989 he was a great player. It doesn't matter that he isn't a Hall of Famer. Hey, most fans just love guys who hit for a high average and drive in runs without striking out much.
As Joe Posnanski wrote in an e-mail:
He wore the pinstripes, and played Gehrig's position, and he was all throwback -- he wore that black under his eye, and he had that great swing, he came to the park to beat you ever day. I think he's one of those guys who, had he played in Boston, Cleveland, Texas, Philadelphia, Seattle, anywhere, would have still been everybody's favorite ballplayer. There really was nothing phony about him. He went up there to hit. He stood off the plate, he walked shockingly little, he drove in bleeping runs. Guy hit .314 with runners in scoring position.I always got the feeling from friends that Mattingly was the coveted, "One Yankees player you really wish was on your team." Not because he was good, but because he was a player you liked despite yourself.
The second half of Mattingly's career was marked by injuries. He also played through some awful years in the Bronx, which helped increase his popularity, but the legend of Donnie Baseball started in his first full year (1984) when he won the batting crown on the last day of the season, and the following year when he walked away with the AL MVP. It is also rooted in the fact that Mattingly was an overachiever--he was a heady player with limited physical gifts, a grinder, just the kind of player fans love, especially white fans.
"By the time his career is over," said Ron Guidry in the spring of 1986, "he could be one of the best who ever played this game. He may not turn out to be quite what Lou Gehrig was, but he'll be closer than anybody else."
"His play, not his words, were the thing," says BP's Joe Sheehan. "He was a beacon of dignity in a time when the Yankees were largely undignified."
Mattingly arrived on the scene as the Yankees were spiraling into George's version of Groundhog's Day. The Yankees annually discarded young players for big-name, big-ticket free agents. You remember the names--Kemp, Collins, Clark. Through it all, Mattingly was driven, confident and without pretense--"100% ballplayer, 0% bullsh**," as Bill James later wrote.
Mattingly was the best young Yankee since Mickey Mantle, and like Mantle had the country-boy-in-the-big-city appeal. But he was no dope. He paid his dues on the infamous Columbus Shuttle. "It's good that it didn't all come so easy," Mattingly once told Sports Illustrated. "One thing I can say about the Yankees: They've never given me a thing."
After his MVP season, Steinbrenner haggled with Mattingly before avoiding arbitration and signing him to a one year, $1.375 million deal. Mattingly tweaked the owner at a Super Bowl banquet by showing up wearing sunglasses and a headband that read, "Steinbrenner." (Mattingly was paying homage to Chicago Bears quarterback, Jim McMahon, who famously wore headbands with new slogans each week that season.)
Two years later, Mattingly said, "You come here and you play and you get no respect. They treat you like sh**. They belittle your performance and make you look bad in the media. After they give you the money, it doesn't matter. They can do whatever they want. They think money is respect."
It's not hard to tell who Mattingly was talking about and his willingness to stand-up to Steinbrenner only increased his reputation with the fans. (When The Boss gave Mattingly grief about the length of his hair, Mattingly grew it longer.)
Best of all, Mattingly loved to work.
"I love to watch him practice," Gene Mauch said when he was managing the Angels. "He's very serious during infield, never wastes a swing in the cage. From there on I don't want to look at him."
Just yesterday, Mike Gallego recalled a favorite Mattingly story to Joel Sherman. It was 8 a.m. The Yankees had played a game the night before and had another game that afternoon. Mattingly was alone in the batting cage with about 200 balls littered around the cage:
"Donnie had no idea I was there," said Gallego, now the Rockies' third base coach. "I watched for 20 minutes. He was sweating bullets and all he was doing was tracking the ball. No swings. None. He'd watch all 200, put the balls back in a bucket, feed the machine and start again. He had been having trouble seeing the ball and there he was, the most famous player in the game, hours before the game, alone, retrieving his own balls, looking for an edge. I tell that story to our players now when they think they are working hard enough and they aren't."Gallego loves the story, in part, because he admires Mattingly so much and thinks it depicts the man. Not just the diligent work ethic. But the humility. The discipline. The grinder makeup. And something else that, Gallego asserts, you could only know if you were observant around Mattingly.
"He is one of the quietest, fiercest competitors that I have ever played with or against," Gallego said. "And he has great belief in himself. He thinks he will find a way to beat you. But he is not going to talk about it. He is not going to tell you how hard he is working or brag on his ability."
In the summer of 1990, Mattingly was struggling and the Yankees had just about hit rock bottom. Rickey Henderson and Dave Winfield were gone. Mattingly was the last Yankee, according to an article by Paul Solotaroff in The National Sports Daily (the piece can be found in Glenn Stout's excellent collection, Top of the Heap):
"My place in Yankee history?" sniggers Donald Arthur Mattingly. "I'll tell you what my place in Yankee history is. It's hitting .260 on a struggling ballclub, and letting everyone down in here. At the moment, I don't exactly feel too much a part of Ruth or Gehrig or DiMaggio....It's pretty ugly, to tell you the truth. What they need to do is get rid of anyone who doesn't care. I take it home every night, and some guys just leave it. That ticks me off, to see a guy laughing and joking around when we lose...You don't want any of those kind of guys on your team."
So, what kind of manager will Mattingly be? I asked a bunch of friends and colleagues yesterday and the response were decidedly mixed. I have no idea how he'll do. I was not especially into the idea until a few days ago. I don't know what turned me around exactly. Maybe I'm just being nostalgic for the Mattingly of my youth, the one who mattered so much to us. Who knows? Point is, I won't be upset if he gets the nod. In fact, I'll be eager to see how he does.
Hey, think he can get Zimmer to be his bench coach?
Re: Zimmer - not a chance in hell. I get the feeling ol' Zim would detest Hank even more than George.
I was not very hot on him until I heard his mid interview conference call. I forgot how competetive the guy is. He and Jeter seems to have a lot in common that way. Their competitiveness isn't nasty, or flashy, but it runs incredible deep and it isn't something there embarassed about either. If you ask, you'll hear how badly he wants something.
Go Donny B. I think he'll do just fine.
Bill James, in his Historical Baseball Abstract said simply about Mattingly - 100% Ballplayer, 0% Bullshit.
Amen.
i don't think that white fans love these kinds of players more. the race aspect to this is that it is almost always white PLAYERS who are labeled heady grinders. thinking, intellectual players who have to overcome their physical shortcomings with their determination.
The "especially white fans" line jumped out at me. I like to think the admiration for Mattingly transcended color, but there's no denying race was still a hot issue around the Yanks in the 80's. Of course the crap Winfield got from Steinbrenner and the fans didn't help anything.
Mattingly matters to me because he started his Yankee career when I was in high school, and retired a few months before I turned 30.
He came on strong, and became my favorite Yankee just as my first favorite Yankee, my childhood hero, Willie Randolph went into decline.
Mattingly was one of the reasons I was able to hold my head high wearing a Yankee hat around Fenway Park during the 1986 World Series, surrounded by my college buds wearing Mets gear.
In the 90's, when Donnie started falling apart, he passed the "my favorite Yankee" torch to Bernie.
A black guy, a white guy, and a Latino. My lifetime favorite Yankees. Never thought about that, actually.
Now, if Donnie becomes a manager, could Bernie possibily complete the trifecta for me?
Nah! But who knows? I never thought Donnie would come this close to managing, let alone in NY.
I think that's exactly right.
There are black players who come close, but don't quite get there. Kirby Puckett was a grinder, but I don't think that he was considered to be a heady. (In fact I think that a great cultural studies paper could be written about the kind of "love" that white males felt for Kirby Puckett.)
Tim Raines was a heady grinder, but he did have those great physical gifts.
Maybe Tony Gwynn was a heady grinder, but the weight gain late in his career makes it hard to square that image.
succinct and apt.
if he gets the job, i hope he does well. not just because that would mean that the yankees would do well, but because i really don't want to see donnie baseball lose anymore. i spent my childhood doing that.
great piece, alex.
My childhood favorite player was also Willie Randolph, and my favorite "dynsasty era" player was Bernie. Weird.
I don't admire the Yankees FO today, it really is a very tough decision. The head says Girardi; the heart says Mattingly.
I had preferred Girardi, but now I guess I'm ambivalent.
If it is Mattingly, I hope that he turns out to be a Gil Hodges-type manager.
I also remember that Alan Trammell was a Tigers' favorite. I hope #23's situation turns out better than Trammell's.
(sigh)
Maybe someday.
Still, dunno about him as a manager, but what do I know. It will be fun to watch, no matter which direction they go. I would hope he's the kind of guy who will make sure Cano runs out every dribbler to second, and makes sure they call out who's got the ball in the outfield. But - we'll see.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. We needed someone to grab onto when we're ten years old and have seen as many managers of our favorite team. Though I do not have an army of facts to back me up, I will argue that '84-'89 Donnie was the best baseball player of my lifetime until I am blue in the face and you walk away exasperated, but possibly somewhat convinced. But, (and here's where I throw the turd into the punchbowl) this has very little to do with his possible success as the Yankee manager.
His advice to Jeter in his first spring training was to run full speed, even on a rainy day on the back diamond in Florida, because you never know when some little kid might be there and that's the only chance he'll ever get to see you. Jeter said that made a lasting impression on him. That's fantastic, but how many Derek Jeters are out there, as compared to the vast majority of mercenary, pay-me-now players?
I haven't yet come to grips with how I feel about Mattingly managing this club, but I kinda feel that mining the nostalgia of 1980's, eye-black wearing, sideburns-waving, short-hop-picking, the Hit Man, Donnie Baseball and aligning it with the prospect of him as manager, is not the kind of jumping-off point for the reasonable yet passionate debate we get into on this site...
19 aww... i was drinking out of that...
18 Not so much history with Mattingly than history with the press. Anyway, the people I knew were more into Winfield, Henderson, Gooden, and Strawberry...
I loved Mattingly too, of course. I remember arguing with a friend of mine who said after the 1988 season that the Yankees should trade Mattingly for Will Clark. I vociferously disagreed, but, in retrospect, alas, he was right.
18 Andre, can't tell if you're being intentionally naive here....
just in case: what's at stake is determining the TRUTH of any particular character judgment: a quality like "gritty" is determined by particular perceptions; as social beings, our perceptions are influenced by those of others and we tend to think in terms of types and groups; when some groups notice tendencies among other groups, they may no longer come to take certain judgments at face value.....
god, that was boring--sorry, guys :)
Short version: if you look at David Eckstein with his shirt off, you will not find "gritty" in glowing divine letters written on his chest.
Without any evidence, I have to think that Dallas Green must have had something to do with the plot to dump Rickey. Rickey was a "non-tradional" player (to say the least) and I could see a hard-assed old-timer like Green wanting to dump him.
Maybe I should let it go, even Rickey wouldn't have made much of a difference on the 90-92 Yankees.
i play in an adult league, and to this day still wear the #23 in hopes that it would help me replicate don's swing from the right side. (believe it or not, it didn't.)
i had forgotten all about will clark, however, and the mention of his name conjured memories of the prototypical lefty swing.
Unfortunately, like your friend jon, they were ultimately right. Clark was a very productive player until he retired in 2000.
I will say that, if you take away Donnie's back issues, it would have probably been very close. Sigh.
Having Dallas Green at the helm didn't help Rickey either. For someone who wasn't here for a season, Dallas rubbed a number of people the wrong way. I remember him butting heads with Rickey, Stanley Jefferson, Pags, and eventually Steinbrenner ("Manager George," ha!).
If only Zimmmer could come back, I think the old magic would come back with him. (Didn't Jeter used to rub his bald head for good luck?). Unfortunately, Zim made it clear he'd never work for Steinbrenner again. He saw years ago the same ugly crassness at the top of this organization that the Torre story just exposed.
After the first papagraph, my body started tingling. By the end of the post, I was almost out of body.
I will guess: 50% love for Donnie, 50% amazing writing.
Why do we love Donnie?
How many guys have the lastname of "Baseball"?
"I don't admire the Yankees FO today, it really is a very tough decision. The head says Girardi; the heart says Mattingly."
Congrats Jonm... I believe that sums it up beautifully.
My favorite player on those Yanks was Henderson. Lou "I'm The Manager" Piniella hung the "jaking it" label on Rickey. Once he got back to Oakland, Rickey jaked his way to the 1990 AL MVP Award. But just think: if the Yanks hadn't traded Henderson back to Oakland, how would the Yankees have enjoyed the services of Luis Polonia?
Didn't Donnie break the facial hair issue with Steinbrenner? I seem to remember the contention elevated to the point that there was talk of George trading Donnie. But Donnie ultimately kept the stache.
I think because of the quiet, mid-western demeanor, it is easy to underestimate Donnie. He is certainly not dumb and he is his own man. If his handling of players is Joe-lite, well... he learned from the best.
He is not going to tell the press things now that might question or go against the way Joe handled things. But that is politics. If Donnie is manager, he will be influenced by all he has 'studied' under, but will make his own decisions.
Ummm...wouldn't that actually support Piniella's contention. Whatever the reason, it is empirically obvious that Henderson's numbers improved dramatically once he got to Oakland.
Now, before everyone get's all worked up, I don't believe that he was not trying.
My problem is that I am more than a little worried about Mattingly as a manager. His lack of experience scares me to death (Bernie and Posada have had about as much experience with their last-game-of-the-year stints). We have nothing to base his performance on. There is no history, there are no tendencies, there is no record, the simple size is not just ultimately small...it does not even exist.
Donnie could be great as a manager (I'd love to see him get that elusive ring) or he could be a bust (could we ever fire Donnie Baseball), who knows. Naming him manager because he was a great player and everyone loves him (especially Steinbrenner) even though he has zero experience is a bit risky for a billion dollar organization in my opinion...
This is probably pollyana but I hope if Girardi gets the job it won't alienate Mattingly too much (I can understand not wanting to remain as coach, but I just hope he isn't too hurt) because as as you say in 38 we don't want it to end poorly if he becomes the manager and that inevitably ends poorly, I just hope it doesn't end poorly on this end either.
I just feel like there is too little information to base our outside judgment on any of the three candidates (their body of work just seems too difficult to tease out) - I wish ESPN or some other slimy media outlet would have found a way for us to hear their interviews so we could know more about their current state of thinking about managing this team (oh well).
I guess I am not entirely convinced that ML managing is a job that necessarily requires much experience. Yes, he might stink it up as a tactician, but I don't think that's because he has not had experience. Bama is right--the greatest source of fear is simply the unknown. But I find that more exciting.
Like I said before, he may be great at it. It just concerns me that we know next to nothing. Also, if he had any influence on things like which reliever to bring in and things of that ilk while he was the bench coach, I am definitely concerned.
So, in my opinion, one never knows what kind of manager he gets unless he has managed at the ML level before.
41 Keep meaning to ask where you live - I grew up in Hustville and went to school in Birmingham - but moved away several years ago. Hardly ever came across any Yanks fans growing up.
44 Very good point - some of the best players have made truly horrible coaches. I guess Ted Williams was notoriously unsuccessful in large part because of his ability as a player. But doesn't some of this go back to Alex's post - because it is presumed that Mattingly was not "naturally" good - he had to really work at it and "grind" etc. so it may be thought that he won't have the difficulties that someone who was just natuarlly talented would have - afterall he worked hard to become a good player (note I don't buy this all the way - but it might influence how people think about it)
I agree with that. We know that Mattingly has a great character and that he is a hard worker. It seems that those two things that we know (along with his stellar playing career) will help him command respect in the clubhouse.
I think that his playing career also indicates baseball smarts.
And, for whatever else he needs, like knowing not to abuse the young pitchers, we can assume that the organization will step in and
teach him. Cashman's not an idiot like Dallas Green.
Funny, listening to T-Mac after listening to Cary is a little like having kidney stone instead of cancer.
"Vegas books have Boston as nearly 2-1 favorites, while Baseball Prospectus' nifty (and essential) Postseason Odds Report gives the Rockies a 56% chance of taking the cake. This seems like a bit of a discrepancy coming from two authoritative sources."
Er... was this a computer glitch? I don't know much about the Rockies but favored over the Sox with Fenway being homefield?
Can anyone here back that up????
After last night's statement game, the Sox now win 71% of the simulations in their quest to become the first two time champion of the 21st century.
From Tom Boswell, "Heart of the Order," early 1986. Boswell writes that Mattingly is Wade Boggs with power, Eddie Murray with hustle, George Brett, but younger and in a home run park.
"I appreciate it," says Mattingly "but it doesn't help me on the field. So let it go. I'd compare myself more to Bill Buckner. He's consistent, hard-nosed, good int he clutch. I love the way he plays. If it's biting it takes, then it's biting; if it's scratching, then scratch...I'll take a ground ball off the chest, get my uniform dirty."
Boswell continues...
"Mattingly's the easiest sort of player to praise--the quiet gamer with eye black like a punt returner and low, unstylish s stirrups below his pants. 'Half the time you forget he's even here,' says [coach, Roy] White.
'What I do on the field, that's me,' says Mattingly. 'If I take care of my game, everything falls into place. The game is the thing you can control. Especially in New York, where so much stuff can clutter you up.'"
And here is more from Joe Posnanski:
"I wrote in SOUL that, for reasons that are not especially easy to put into words, there are certain players whose names instantly conjure up a time and place in baseball. I wrote that line about Tony Oliva -- to me, while Oliva was certainly an excellent player, his name is almost magical. His name is bigger than his game. Kaline was a better player than Oliva, and yet (again, I'm only talking about me), the name 'Oliva' just seems to represent that time. I hear, 'Oliva' and all sorts of grainy images pop into my head (even though I only remember Oliva at the end, when he could hardly walk). I'm sure other people would disagree.
But my point is that the name, Mattingly, to me says 1980s baseball more than players who I think were probably superior players (George Brett, Mike Schmidt, etc). The guy always had an aura."
61 , 62 I think there is something to be said for all the time the Yanks (especially ARod and Jeter)got hit - I can't remember the exact discrepancy but those two got hit something like 15 times compared to something like 2 for Ortiz and Manny over a few year time span. Which I think speaks to a difference in agressiveness. I also think there was an element of tenseness that set in during the playoffs - with the last few years being the worse.
So, I don't exactly know the manager's role - but I would like to see some more "smart agressiveness" rather than tenseness.
From "Wait Till Next Year", a book about the 1987 sporting scene in New York written by columnist Mike Lupica and screenwriter William Goldman. (Bantam Books, 1988.)
This portion, written by Lupica, may be of interest:
"In New York, it has been historically more useful to be a white star than a black star; the opportunities for endorsements and commercials and billboards and all the rest that comes with being a celeb are more readily available to you. With the Mets, Gary Carter and Ron Darling were infinitely more appealing to Madison Avenue than Darryl Strawberry and Dwight Gooden, even before Gooden's difficulty getting the passing grade on the urine test.
This sort of racism is not specific to New York, or baseball; it is part of professional sports now. [Wasn't it always?] There was just more conversation about it around the Yankees in early 1987 because [Rickey] Henderson was having such an electrifying start, the Yankees were in first place, the Mets were in trouble, and Henderson still wasn't the toast of the town. A lot of people thought it was a combination of the normal racism of sports, and perception---the way players were presented to the world in the newspapers. Henderson had the image of being cocky. Lenny Dykstra, the white center fielder for the Mets, strutted and swaggered just as much at Shea Stadium as Henderson did at Yankee Stadium. But Dykstra, who had traded mightily on the Mets' World Series championship during the off-season, had a reputation as being tough.
Henderson was a hot dog.
Dykstra was his nickname: "Nails."
It was a subtle distinction, but a distinction nonetheless. Henderson, the black man, was cocky. Dykstra, the white man, was tough. Henderson had an image problem. Dykstra didn't. That day at Yankee Stadium, the crowd at kept cheering after Mattingly's grand slam, wanting Mattingly to come out and take a curtain call. Mattingly, a shy man who thinks curtain calls are silly displays, didn't want to go. Henderson, laughing, ran up the dugout steps, waved, got Mattingly's cheer.
In the clubhouse, Willie Randolph said, "It's the only way Rickey can get one."
And there was more than racism going on.'"
Here is more on Rickey:
"Henderson simply refused to sell himself to the writers; he simply was not one of the kings of clubhouse schmooze. He would not, or could not, make himself available to writers before games. Rickey had his own way of doing things, and his reluctance to promote himself in any way just seemed to fit into the tapestry of being Rickey. He was a game player. He did not enjoy the running and drills of spring training; did not like rules of any kind; he would hide in a corner of the dugout in Fort Lauderdale when the Yankees ran laps early in spring training, then jump out when [then manager, Lou] Pinella and the coaches weren't looking, join his mates for the final lap.
He did not like getting to the ball park any earlier than he had to; it was obvious to teammates and writers covering the team that he had terrible work habits. The slightest injury sent him to the bench; it was a problem that would become more and more acute for Henderson, and his team, and his image, and Yankee fans. [The irony for Henderson, is that he ended up with the career record for stolen bases and runs scored, but never shed the image as a player who loafed it.]
And there was 'Don't need no press now, man.'
The writers had never forgotten those first words Henderson spoke in the Yankee clubhouse, in April of 1985. Henderson had injured an ankle in Florida, had needed extra time to recuperate, and the regular season had started without him. When he did show up, the writers were waiting for him.
Henderson shooed them away from his locker, saying, "Don't need no press now, man."
He hadn't gotten a lot of press since...
One day a writer said to Dave Winfield, "Why isn't Rickey bigger around here than he is?"
And Winfield, voice dripping with sarcasm, said, "You mean like I am?"
Claudell Washington was more vocal and belligerent about the issue, especially at the end of May, when Dennis Rodman and Isiah Thomas of the Detroit Pistons would create a national sensation with some remarks about Larry Bird, and the fact that he might not be as big a star as he was if he wasn't white. Thomas, when given the chance to explain himself by columnist Ira Berkow in the Times, said, "Magic (Johnson) and Michael Jordan and me, we're playing on God-given talent, like we're animals, lions and tigers who run wild in the jungle, while Larry's success is due to intelligence and hard work."...
Washington: "You think Rickey Henderson doesn't understand what we're talking about with this whole black-white deal? You think he doesn't know? That man Rickey is a legend. He should be on every billboard in town, on every commercial. Rickey Henderson is the best." (pp.181-83)
I don't think Don Mattingly was any less sincere in his approach to the game and his talents than Henderson was to his, it's just that Mattingly was the personification of what Curt Flood once labled as "that paragon of nineteenth-century Integrity---the Hungry Ball Player." To be a bit more disparaging, I should say, "The Hungry White Ball Player".
The humble, over-achiever. Flood wrote in his autobiography, "To acquire a public reputation as a 'hustler'---a good competitor---is usually a matter of posture or personality...Slowness of foot also helps, requiring the player to fling himself to the turf in vain efforts to catch balls that more gifted athletes might have handled while remaining unruffled and erect."
(From "The Way It Is" by Flood with Richard Carter. Trident Press, 1971. pp.51 + 59.)
Cynicism aside, Mattingly was a grinder of the highest order, one who led by example. One of the reasons for his popularity was certainly his race; it is why Mattingly was lauded for his dedication, and perspiration, while Winfield was derided as a disapointment at best, and at worst, a choke artist.
And speaking of race - I have read this passage 72 several times, and every time I read it just reinforces what a scummy twister Lupica is - he starts off by saying
"In New York, it has been historically more useful to be a white star than a black star..." which is obviously an attention grabbing line. Then he goes on to admit that this is not exclusive to NY or baseball and so on.
So it just seems to belittle all of the racial injustices throughout sport much less life as an afterthought.
In addition, he takes all these digs himself at all the black athletes (Gooden - failing a urine test; "Henderson was a hot dog" and so on.
The truth is, baseball obviously has a history of race issues (what in America really doesn't?) and none of those issues would disappear overnight as much as we want them to.
Let me ask a deeper question, and you can answer in any way you want because I'm not trying to make a point, though one may exist: when you look at a player such as Buck O'Neill, who has just been posthumously honored with a Lifetime Achievement award named in his honor, how does his post-career fame square with his actual career, which apparently wasn't good enough to get him in the Hall of Fame on it's own? What qualities garnered this kind of respect? Furthermore, taking much of the previous discussion into consideration, does this mean Black players are analyzed with different standards than White players, especially when it comes to the Hall of Fame?
I for one would hate to think that it is only a Black player's physical prowess that is taken seriously under such circumstances. Does that mean Jackie or Frank Robinson's singular values was as hitters? (Nah...)
DB also knows exactly where he stands with the Steinbrenner cabal, though the debilitation of George does change that dynamic (with Randy and the Steinbros, all bets are off until further notice). My point is that he understands their corporate point of view (football and profits) and what they think of the hired help who are The Yankees, and he thinks can work with that in the hottest position on the team. How long do we really think Girardi will last with those guys?
He's one of those "just cause I talk slow don't mean I'm stupid" guys. And I'm pretty sure he's already figured out what he wants to do when they fire him.
And yes, this is my first post, though I've enjoyed reading all of you for quite a while.
So, a tardy hello.
Wow - what a nice start to this game. But Colorado cannot leave men on third.
Now Jiminez threw over his head just like Joba - so Bucky if you insist on bring this up again at least get it right after all they did the same thing.
83 Guess you are going to have leftovers.
ooh, that was close on that foul ball. i really hate fenway park. always have...
86 yeah, i have no idea how i ended up having the game on... : ~
ah, gavce it a ride, but nothing.
i'll be here all week... ; )
90 hell(ton) of a try
if you don't even wanna check, i'll try and update here (if i'm indeed still watching...)
What school did you go to in Birmingham?
You are right about there not being very many Yankee fans down here (mostly bandwagon Braves fans). My grandmother was a huge Braves fan (she watched every game). I was always afraid that she was going to disown me after we won those two Serious-es... ;-)
101 yeah, esp. up at lake lanier (about an hour away). we got a little bit of rain yesterday. beautiful chilly fall day today. if we run outta water, i'll just have to start drinking more beer! ; )
Oh - I have played softball games in Fort Payne. I didn't start there (actually I went to school in Atlanta for a year) - but I finished at UAB and then worked a year or two in Birmingham - then moved to New York for a few years- now Boston - but I want to go back to NY when I finish my degree here.
I was in high school when the Braves went from "worse to first" and there were a ton a "new" Braves fans at my school. But I remember when I was younger no one really had a baseball team, but a lot of people hated any mention of the Yanks.
I take it you don't think Huntsville is cool (don't worry - it's not).
What do you think of Atlanta?
Birmingham is one of those Southern cities that has changed quite a bit even since the 80s.
Yeah- I thought I have seen you discuss Alabama football with him, after a couple of months I am now starting to kind of know who a lot of the posters are.
where in Atlanta were you for that year and what degree are you pursuing?
wow, nice stretch by helton!
That is one my issues with the term racism. Having some preconceived notions of other persons, especially persons who are not members of 'your' tribe, I think is both evolutionarily natural as well as cultural learned. To some degree, it is with all of us, all the time.
Is it that bizarre or unnatural to think that a white child might more identify with a white adult, or a black child might more identify with a black adult, a Jew with a Jew, a Muslim with another Muslim? If this is so, is this what you and I call racism?
Is there racism in Baseball?
Does a wild bear shit in the woods?
(HA!)
106 There's almost nothing to like in Huntsville. My dad is from Detroit and when he tells people about Hunstville he says - there is not much to do there, but getting to it is easy.
I went to Emory for a year - but my Alabama public school education left me woefully unprepared and after being such a high achieving nerd in high school I couldn't take getting so many B's - so I left and didn't really know where else to go.
I liked Atlanta though and went there a lot when I lived in Birmingham - as it is much easier to get to Atlanta from Bham than Huntsville.
Right now I am trying to get a PhD in Public Policy.
The good thing about Atlanta is it is very easy to get to NY with so many flights- so hopefully you get to visit your family enough.
Human qualities? Rare human qualities? Even in baseball, we can honor this, yes?
yeah, it's not a bad flight from here to NY, though i hate flying. i go up a few times a year to see the fam and was just 'home' a coupla weeks ago...
is your fam still in Ala? ya know the joke they say here in atlanta? -- the only thing good about alabama is that it keeps mississippi one state farther away! ; )
I guess it is good that Atlantans can make fun of Mississippi since Alabama and Miss have such a big wierd rivalry.
120 At least the Captain Crunch flied out.
I don't really know if it would have changed the outcome of the series, but I wish the Rockies could have played a more normal schedule just so we would have known.
See you tomorrow - where hopefully we will have a new Yankee manager to discuss.
This is boys against men.
And am I the only one that watches Okajima and thinks "but we wanted Igawa!"
I guess Okajima doesn't walk nearly enough men to have been seriously considered for the Yankee bullpen anyway, so there's no point in getting that upset.
Over the nonsigning of Okajima. I have plenty of rage still left in me for the inexplicable Igawa signing.
439 G
34 Wins
32 Losses
41 Saves
3.36 ERA
681 Strikeouts
Nobody predicted a 3.36 ERA in Japan translating to a 2.22 ERA in the AL East, especially at his age.
(Thanks Dodgers49!)
I didn't know the Yankees had someone in charge of "mental conditioning." Does he dislike Farnsworth too?
Fuck the Sox. That is all.-
Wow, I remember when discussion on this blog was better than lohud and others sites.
Pure class.
Feel free to delete my comment if you think it's necessary.
plus, most of us hate the red sox and at times like this "Fuck Boston" just feels right.
:o)
I hate the red sox. I got a ticket to St Louis in 2004 for the WS when the yanks were up on Boston 3 games to 0. When the yanks choked I sold the ticket. My mother in law said, "why not go to the WS, aren't you a real baseball fan?"
And I told her that I'd be damned if I was driving 500 miles just to boo the red sox, that I have better things to do with my time, and I'm a real YANKEES fan!
148 And when the yanks win the world series again, I will have better things to do than to go posting on a sox message board! I will be right here smoking a cigar and celebrating and I have a feeling that the subject of the red sox and their fans just won't come up...
By the way, they've got some long in the tooth guys and I think its going to be a short ride. They should enjoy it because papi is obviously hitting the buffet line twice and Varitek, Schilling, wakefield, manny, drew and Lowell aren't getting any younger! And dai-suck isn't getting any better.
And Beckett may be a good pitcher but he's not as good as he's been pitching.
And the man NEVER struck out.
35 fucking strikeouts in 652 ab or whatever it was?
Maybe 607 ab.
Whatever.
I realize I was young (12 years old in 1985) but honestly, to this day I can't say I've seen a better hitter than Mattingly. Sure, there are guys with more power and such, but my God, watching him spray those linedrives around the field was just the stuff of myth.
Oh, and if that weren't enough, there was his glove.
And his arm.
God, what a player.
I nearly burst into tears just recalling those days.
In regard to 110 , bears shyt wherever the hell they want to >;) but there are consequences when they do it in certain places, just like what we may or may not call racism. There are certain places in New York I have no need to go to, but if I ever do, I am aware that I'm not welcome by the cold stares I receive or the evasive maneuvers I encounter. There's little reason for me to call it out since I have no intention of being there longer than I need to. What I object to about that behavior is when someone comes into MY domain and treats me like bear shyt; opening a store on White Plains Road and treating black customers with far less respect than others is a big no-no in my book. But it seems like we're not allowed to complain about it, or if we do, it's often ridiculed or ignored.
With Buck, I do recall somewhere where he said it did make him mad before, but he learned to let it go. Buck had a long life and earned a tremendous amount of respect, and he was certainly nobody's fool. Does saying that he was a really nice guy make it okay? What about his astute mind for the game? (Did he have one? I'd like to know if that's been talked about or regarded one way or another) Buck should not be looked upon as an exception to the perception that black athletes are basically physical prowess and little/no cerebrum, and I don't think anyone answered my remark about Jackie and Frank, but it's good since again, I wasn't trying to make a point, just asking >;)
I think THT had a column on O'Neil regarding his candidacy for the HoF, but I cannot seem to find it.
I have no doubt this is true to some extent, but Lupica is dead wrong when he says Madison Ave. didn't love Gooden.
Doc did high profile endorsements for Polaroid, Toys 'R' Us, Nike and Spalding. His was a household name before the coke and "vodka therapy" did him in.
Then there's this snipet from Jeff Gordon's recent piece on "all-time money flushers" at Fox Sport.com:
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Dwight Gooden
He had a nice run in the major leagues, winning 194 games and making about $36 million. But how many more games could he have won had his cocaine addiction not marred the second half of his career?
For that estimate, compare "Doc" Gooden to Roger Clemens. In 1993, he earned $5.9 million and Clemens made $4.6 million. They were the top power pitchers of their era.
But Gooden was suspended for the 1995 season for cocaine abuse. The next season, he made just $950,000 coming back from rehab. From 1992 to 1999, Gooden made $24 million while in and out of the sport. During that same time, Clemens, exploiting the free-agent marketplace, made $51 million.
Gooden lost some of that earning power due to shoulder trouble unrelated to his lifestyle. But Gooden also had greater marketing potential, given his enduring popularity in New York City. Cocaine abuse cost him more than $25 million.
Darryl Strawberry
Like Gooden, Strawberry made his mark in the big leagues. He hit 335 career homers, drove in 1,000 runs and made more than $30 million from 1985 to 1998.
Like Gooden, the former Mets phenom suffered frequent substance abuse relapses —leading to suspensions, legal trouble, lost earning power and additional suffering in retirement. He cost himself more than $20 million by making unfortunate lifestyle choices.
Baseball salaries soared in the 1990s. During Strawberry's prime free-agent era, from 1991-98, he made $23 million. Jose Canseco, another star-crossed slugger from the class of 1985, made $35.5 million during that span.
Strawberry, like Canseco, had the potential to become of baseball's all-time greats. Had Strawberry fulfilled that promise, he would have made Juan Gonzalez money ($47.5 million between from 1994-2000) and maximized his marketing potential.
But his recurring alcohol and drug problems — along with knee injuries and colon cancer later in his career — kept baseball fans wondering "what if?"
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Now, I can think of more than a few black athletes who have owned NY in my lifetime.
Willie Mays was the face of the Mets in his day. I remember his mug on billboards all over town as a kid. (I lived in Flushing until I was 10)
Reggie got the billboards, and a candy bar to boot.
Walt Frazier. Puma Clyde's anybody?
Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Tiki Barber, Pat Ewing, Willis Reed, Earl Monroe, Sugar Ray Robinson...
Lupica would compare the popularity and bankability of these NY athletes to Gary Carter & Ron Darling? He's got to be kidding.
Hell, every one of the guys I listed was as big, beloved, and bankable as Mattingly, if not bigger, to this white boy.
Further, most cultures promote racism, whether openingly or on a subconsious level.
However, this 'fact' does NOT rationalize racism or make it easier to accept or deal with. It may be natural, but within the confines of a civilized society, it is certainly unfair, unproductive and wrong.
I further think we need to separate and even have different vocabulary to differentiate between 'lynch that Nigger!' racism, 'Is he really smart enough to be a manager' racism, and 'here come a funky looking black dude, maybe I should cross the street' racism.
These 3 examples are fueled by very different emotional and intellectual energy.
I would love to dialog with you on this, but BB isn't the place. If you're interested, drop me your EMail address or ask for mine.
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