Baseball Toaster was unplugged on February 4, 2009.
The Joe Torre Era appears to be finally over. Unless the Yankees or Torre have a sudden about-face, which seems unlikely, it's done. "And that's that," as Martin Scorsese's father said in Good Fellas over Joe Pesci's fallen, and bleeding body.
Torre became an icon as manger of the Yankees, a native son who was one of the most popular and famous coaches New York has ever seen. He was far and away the most successful manager under George Steinbrenner. And he managed more than twice as many games as anyone under the Boss. Torre made the playoffs in each of his twelve years in New York. But the Yankees have not won the World Series since 2000 and Torre makes more than twice as much as any other manager in the game. Today, the Yankees made Torre an offer he could refuse. It was not an outrageously insulting offer, but it is one they could reasonably expect him to turn down.
Torre did and now is out, but on his own terms. "He finally showed some balls," barked a friend of mine. I didn't think Torre would ever walk away from the Yankees, but I like him more for it. And he still comes out smelling like a Rose. To be honest, I agree with Joe Morgan and several other talking heads I've heard tonight in seeing both sides of the equation. I understand why Torre turned them down. After all of his success you'd think he'd get more than a one-year deal. But I also understand that the Yankees would still be paying more well more than any other manager is earning. It's not bad business on their part.
I don't know if the Yankees have any idea of what they are doing (Also, I find Randy Levine to be crude without having any of Steinbrenner's charm). It's funny, but even hardcore Yankee fans are skeptical about the idea of Don Mattingly as manager. Some are terrified. Which is about how I feel too, even though I loved Mattingly as a player. But I thought Torre was a bum when they hired him too, so one never knows...
I'd still expect to see Posada and Rivera back, even without Torre. Who knows with Alex Rodriguez and I'm not so certain about Pettitte either. I'm okay with the Yankees moving on. It makes things exciting. But it also feels uneasy. So much change: the loss of Bernie and now Torre, the decline of Steinbrenner. Who knows what the roster will look like on Opening Day?
I will also miss Torre very much. I grew accustomed to his face, as the song goes. I love watching him on TV--he gives great press conference--and am a flat-sucker for the Poppa Joe routine. I was 25 and had just moved to Brooklyn when he was hired. Torre looked like an undertaker or the butcher from the neighborhood. His time with the Yankees will always stand out as a way to look at a certain time of my life--from being single and working in the film business, to being married and writing about baseball. In fact, it was the great Yankee run of the late nineties that compelled me to start writing about baseball in the first place.
Torre has been a wonderful manager and I've never been especially bugged about his shortcomings, though I recognize he's got plenty. I'll especially love the days with Don Zimmer, not only because the Yankees were winning all the time, just because those two were so amusing. Torre sure loved being Yankee manager and without the pinstripes he may be a little bit like Superman without the cape and suit. But I'm sure he'll land back in the broadcast booth--if he doesn't go and manage the Dodgers or something like that--and still be appealing.
Thanks for the memories, Joe. You done good.
This is going to be one of the more interesting off seasons in awhile.
Go Tribe, then Go Rockies.
I can see both sides of the equation - "It was not an outrageously insulting offer, but it is one they could reasonably expect him to turn down."
Also, we are being forced to move on from so many - Bernie was one of my most favorite Yanks. Whether he re-signs or not (and I really really hope he does) Mo will not be around that much longer. Torre is gone and so it goes. Change is always scary - it is harder for most people to believe in the possibility of better rather than the fear of worse. I am very excited to see Cano develop further and of course the young pitchers. I hope if Alex stays and he does have the ear of Melky and Cano they work out with him this winter and on their hitting. The future is promising and exciting - but it is hard to let go of a wonderful past.
I feel a strange tingle... is it the future? maybe, but as much as I will miss Torre, the decision was out of my hands and nothing I do will change anything, so let's go. Let us now address the rest of the needs, while respecting what has been accomplished.
If this really is it, it's been real, Mr. Torre... and I hope we can maintain the qualities you brought out in this club that made you so intriguing to those who despised you and those who are grateful for you.
Now, it's all on you, FO. "Clueless Joe" has left and gone astray, and a weary fanbase turns to you in it's time of... need?
I'm miss Joe. He was the Yankee manager of my generation and a damn good one which is why the constant picking at him ticks me the hell off. Joe won my heart by wearing his emotion on his sleeve. I have never thought that the manager does much beyond managing personalities and the pitching, but Joe convinced me that he did "something." I wish Joe all the best in his future endeavors.
Thanks, Joe. I will miss you...
I might add, though, that the reaction of the Pete Abes & Tom Verduccis of the world I could do without. What unbalanced windbags.
Go forth and prosper, Joe Torre, and on with the next chapter.
Joe, wherever you are, I hope you're happy and I miss ya already. I just hope you taught Donnie or Girardi all you could while they served under you.
if Girardi becomes manager, I don't think Mattingly would stick around to watch a young guy manage the team he wanted. So, I would ask Bowa to be the bench coach.
In which case, Luis Sojo for 3rd base coach!
I'll miss Joe, and I appreciate what he has done with the Yankees. But I am having a very very hard time with this outpouring of grief and anger. People are acting like the Yankees owed Joe Torre a huge contract for lots of years. The same thing people said about Bernie--The Yankees owed him a few more years because of his past.
The Yankees owed Joe Torre a more graceful exit I suppose, but I am excited to move as well, with the new generation of talent coming up...
Mo's comment: "The Yankees are one of 30 teams now." "
Cashman better have his A-game and a gigantic check ready.
10 Speaking of college football, Bear Bryant took Alabama to 24 consecutive bowl games. That's one of the major reasons why it has been difficult to replace him. I'm sure you guys are going to have a similar problem replacing Paterno at Penn State.
Hopefully, the Yankees will have an easier time replacing Joe...
I don't like the way they handled it, but like I said here the other day, Joe was going to come out of Tampa Tribunal '07 a winner no matter what they decided.
Way to go, Joe!
Nothing that happened this week will diminish what he accomplished. We will honor and thank him always. We will always wear our caps more proudly because of how he defined the club '96-'07. What more could we want from a manager?
Funny you mention where you were in your life when Joe came aboard, Alex. I've been thinking along the same lines tonight. I turned 30 in May of '96, got married in June of that year, moved from NY to Los Angeles in July. Then, there was that unbelievable October that started this unforgettable run. A dynasty. An era. Ours! and Torre was the lovable leader.
I've long since become a father to three sons, and moved back to NY.
So much life has happened to all of us since Joe came aboard. How many New York minutes in 12 years, and Joe was as steady and sure as the clock and calendar. Such is the burden of a cornerstone.
Most impressive of all though? Torre was a survivor. That's gotta be the Brooklyn in him. Joe from the streets survived George Steinbrenner, the military businessman from Ohio with all the money and balls. Walked away from him an all-time winner, too. 12 years later.
It may be a while before we see any more rings and parades around here, but the pride, we'll always have that, thanks in a very big way to Joe Torre.
Way to go, Joe!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/tom_verducci/10/18/torre/index.html?eref=T1
16 it's gonna be an absolute mess when JoePa is no longer there. i shudder to think. he is an institution. he is Penn State. i was just there 2 months ago and it's still all about Joe there. gonna be weird that it's not about 'our' Joe in Yankeeland anymore... : ~
In reality, no he doesn't. Posada and A-Rod, however, are much more sritical to next season's campaign.
"Cashman has fancied himself a Billy Beane-Theo Epstein wanna-be, an intellectual GM known for running an efficient system, especially when it comes to player development, rather than just a guy who writes checks. He has traded veterans for prospects, embraced sabermetrics and surrounded himself with young number-crunchers who get jazzed about PlayStation tournaments. The more he has put his self-worth in the image of cutting-edge GM the less Torre and his old-school ways became relevant."
next ? -- who the hell is gonna hold onto to Jeter's bat in between ab's?!?!?! ; )
Hey Tom, Cashman was around BEFORE Theo
My God, Buck really really really really really really really like it when Beckett strikes a guy out. Judging by the way they are announcing this game, you would think the score was 12-0 and Beckett had struck everyone out
Team Steinbrenner didn't want him back, and didn't have the balls to say so. That was weak. What Joe did was the strong move.
Doesn't make him a saint. Doesn't make him a genius. But hell, moves like that can make you governor is bigger states than NY.
let me clarify what i mean about entitlement. the contract offered to joe torre is an insult if the baseline is his previous contract. if he uses that as the baseline, it is somewhat reasonable, but it does mean that he feels he is entitled to it. it is equally reasonable to put the baseline at 0, as in what he would make without a contract, or at whatever the average salary of a major league manager is, or at whatever the 2nd highest salary is if you like. if any of those are your baseline, then an offer of $5 million with up to $3 million in incentives is not insulting. remember how much money we are talking about here. the yankees did not have to offer him anything. if they didn't want him here anymore, they wouldn't have offered him anything- certainly not more than any other manager makes and more than what he makes if the incentives are included.
is he insulted by the incentives? maybe. but is it unfair to put incentives on making the postseason? why? they want him to lead the yankees to the world series. if he does that, he will make a ton of extra money.
again, he can only be insulted by this offer if he feels that he is entitled to what he had been making. otherwise he would take it as a wonderful offer, considering the team that he leads has failed to perform in the way the front office expects, and that he is still being offered considerably more than any other manager in the game.
let's say you're the president of a car company. as such, you make $700 million a year. over twice as much as the next-highest-paid car company president. you love your car company and all the people under you. but over the last 7 years other car companies have outperformed yours. you think you've done everything possible to dominate the car market. your contract is up, and your bosses tell you that they want you to stay, and they offer you a $500 million contract with $300 million in incentives if you lead the company to the top of the car industry. this salary is still considerably higher than the salary of any other car company president. is that unreasonable? is it so unreasonable that you would not take the offer out of principle?
And yes, I would be pissed if my boss questioned my desire to be the best and thought that more money would get me off my ass and make me try harder. Clearly, Joe was too.
Please score some runs against this twit
Sincerely,
Raf
???
Do you mean "thought that less money..."
As much as I respect Joe, I didn't see his move coming.
I figured he'd do the Bernie thing, take a massive hit, but keep being the happy and productive soldier for as long as they'd have him.
Money guys like Levine, and ballbusters like the Steinbrenners have a way of making the simplest transactions acrimonious.
In the end, I'm guessing Joe just had enough. I very much respect that.
Not the end of the world by any stretch. I'm ready for whatever's next.
Hey Joe, we know you need more motivation to win in October, so we'll throw some more cash your way if you do.
I'm being facetious, of course.
If he doesn't take another job, when's the next time he'll be up for HoF election? I want to make sure I block out the appropriate July weekend to be there when he gets in. I hope I'll see some of you folks there.
11 Cot's Baseball Contracts says that the extension Torre signed in April 2004 included a 6 year consulting agreement. No further details, but that does sound promising. It might also have been the Yanks' way of making sure he didn't leave and, say, go manage the Red Sox.
4-1, 7th inning. : (
4-1, 7th inning. : (
47 hell no! dude, you've got to have better stuff to do! anything! : )
and what is this bullshit about the incentives? instead of just getting $8 million, he was offered $5 million plus $3 million if he gets to the world series. he's entitled to not making the 8 no matter what?
38 ballbusters? he (or his sons) fucking offered $5 million plus incentives. it's obviously about the money. the insult IS the money, if you think it's an insult at all.
Trey Hillman, who has long been considered a possible sleeper candidate within the New York Yankees' organization in the event Joe Torre departed, is in serious negotiations to be the next manager of the Kansas City Royals.
But for 500 million, he'd probably manage every game naked.
How much does anyone think he'd be offered to manage anywhere else?
When did I do that? I've said before that I can see where Joe is coming from, but nowhere in 59 did I defend him. (I'm referring to the pay cut; the incentives is a completely different debate.)
I'm only arguing that comparing turning down 5 million to turning down 500 million is absurd. Nobody would turn down 500 million. Torre can turn down 5 million.
but to say that he can afford to turn down 5 million but not 500 million is wrong. and to say that nobody would turn down 500 million is wrong also. i would turn down 500 million for a lot of reasons. but if he can afford to turn down 5, then he can afford to turn down 500.
"but to say that he can afford to turn down 5 million but not 500 million is wrong."
Why?
Actually, whatever. He wasn't offered 500 million, so this whole thing is getting ridiculous.
Spot on. I wonder how much power he has now, rather than the boys. Hasn't he disliked Joe for a while?
just because you would want $500 million doesn't mean that everyone would. understanding your own desires as those of everyone else in the world is not a good way to live.
anyway, this all reinforces the point that it is all about the money. torre feels he is entitled to what he is making now, guaranteed. he ISN'T. and the fact that he was offered something less than that but still incredibly generous (as an offer to any individual, not as a portion of the yankees' wealth) is not an insult.
I also don't think it's right the way things went down between Torre and the Yankees, but it isn't anything I haven't seen before. Not that it makes it any more right, but Torre has been playing with house money since 2004.
At any rate, I wish him the best of luck in his new endeavor, whatever it is, and I wish the new manager luck. I still say that the Yanks win 90+ games no matter who's at the helm, provided they make some decent moves this offseason.
meant I don't really care anymore. Nothing personal, of course.
70 I would think that a manager has far more to do with making the playoffs than what happens once they get there.
And what about the over-discussed Joba Rules? That they existed at sugests on some level a mistrust of the manager. And wasn't Cashman upset that the rules were made public? And didn't Torre complain about them publicly?
"...with a 6 run lead.."
Wow, yankee fans actually hoping to live through sox misery. My how the times have changed :)
And it's nice.
And no, nobody's "living through sox misery." Wanting to see a team lose =/= living. That role still exists solely with you douchebags who chant "Yankees suck!" at NFL games.
Despite Torre's maddening tendencies, the Yanks played near .600 ball...
83 and a play on kevin maas...
Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, White Sox, Mets
Last 7 yrs postseason:
Yankees (7), Red Sox (4), Angels (4), White Sox (1), Mets (1)
Last 7 years make it to the World Series:
Yankees (2), Red Sox (1*), Angels, (1), White Sox (1), Mets (0)
Last 7 years win the World Series:
Yankees (0), Red Sox (1), Angels (1), White Sox (1), Mets (0)
Highest paid managers (don't have the history on this)
Torre, Piniella, Cox, LaRussa, Sciosia
Which of these managers made the postseason this year (and for the past 12)? Only Torre.
Cox, Sciosia & La Russa have had similar (but not nearly equal) success as Torre over the past 7 years but don't have to deal with the same kind of media attention, salaries (i.e. egos), or expectations.
As a reward for continued greatness, they offer to cut his base (read: guaranteed) salary and take the other half and turn it into an incentive bonus plan. I make decent $$, but if my employer did that to me notwithstanding a continuous period of high performance, I'd be pissed.
"But Joe makes $5mill, nothing is owed to him"
I say that's a red herring.
I would guess that everyone on this board makes more than someone else in the world, relatively speaking. If you had performed consistently well at your job (maybe not the best in the world every year, but in the top 5 in the world every year) and your bosses decided to take 33% of your base salary and turn it into non-guaranteed $$, wouldn't you be PO'd? Would you say to yourself "I should be happy - I don't NEED this much money. In fact, there are people around the world starving and living on 10 cents a day."??
Just seems like an odd way to reward continuously high performance in the aspect of his job that you would argue is most in Joe's control (the regular season).
I guess this wouldn't bother me so much if I thought there was anyone else out there that could do a better job.
Could he possibly force it anymore? Honestly, I have never seen anything like that. Pathetic.
go tribe at the fens!
IF this was indeed a ploy (BIG IF), then I think Marchman puts it well:
"The honorable thing to do, when you want to fire someone, is to fire them. Torre is a grown man who's been in baseball for 47 years. He would not have jumped off a bridge had the Yankees told him they didn't want him back. Nor would the team's fans have been unable to accept that the Yankees had decided the time for change had come. Making an insulting offer and then pointing out how wonderful it is, as Levine did when he noted that under the contract Torre would have remained the highest-paid manager in baseball, is a rather inept way to pretend you haven't sacked someone."
http://tinyurl.com/344bn4
Look, at some point (this year, next, the year after) Joe was going to go. In some ways, he's not replaceable, but I remind everyone how upset most of us were when Buck was fired and Joe was hired. At that point, Buck had finally brought the Yankees back to the postseason, they were on the upswing and a great team was being built. One bad loss in Seattle and he was gone. In some ways, Buck was fired for sticking with McDowell and not bringing in Rivera. A single questionable move. Then a guy who could best be described as a perenially losing manager is brought in, one who half of us had never really heard of. That worked out pretty well didn't it?
The only thing I regret was how this was carried out. Its become a huge story and makes the team look callous. If they wanted him out, they should have fired him. If they wanted him back, then you make an offer and negotiate. Levine just strikes me as really slimy.
I do wish George had just fired him. Somehow it would be appropriate, his last managerial move was to bring in Mariano and he should have gone out with either a WS win, a choice to retire or the Boss flashing his old self.
94 i'll certainly feel better if i know mo, po, alex, andy and boBBy are all coming back. i'll have to be cool w/ whoever is managing whether it's donnie or bowa or whomever.
i had always known of torre, however. in fact, i met him and was in his office at Shea Stadium when i was a little boy. he was wonderful. great player, too. he'll be fine, but i'll feel a void without him. first bernabe, now joe, probably andy next, but hopefully after next season...
As for the player, Kevin Maas was the lone bright spot in an otherwise dismal 1990 season... Remember how Shane Spencer was hitting HR's in bunches? BTDT with Maas.
"We kind of thought something was going to happen after we didn't win," left fielder Johnny Damon said last night. "They gave Joe an opportunity, but with a pay cut and with the pressure that, if you win, here's more money — which was pretty decent."
That does not make the decision correct or not. I am only raising the possibility that we are oversimplifying the decision making process and motives.
Maybe that says something about me...
How do you access the NoMaas archives?
Anyway, click on the link to get the old NoMaas page, then scroll to bottom and click the link to "past headlines".
"Meanwhile Randy Levine grabbed every second of airtime he could on the conference call today. This is the same guy who gathered the writers during spring training and tried to get us to do a story on all his accomplishments. Nobody was interested."
What an asshat. I seriously, seriously hope he doesn't get too much power.
Look, the FO was already on Torre earlier in the year, remember all of those reports about being unhappy with his BP management etc? The Joba rules? The trade of Proctor? Torre was given a pay cut for the regular season as much as the postseason, and I suspect that most of the FO isn't terribly sad to see him go. With a bunch of young kids coming up and the vets on the way out, Torre simply wasn't the right fit anymore.
I give him lots of credit for doing things this season that I never would have imagined him doing in terms of playing time, but who knows. Don't worry, I promise you come spring time that the Yanks will have a manager, happy campers on the field and in the stands, and all will be well...
As for Pete A., hes been insufferable the past few days. I'm not sure when it happened, but at some point he started acting as if he is much much better than all "this" and that he is the possessor of all baseball knowledge, lore, and customs. Thanks Pete, but I don't need you to tell me how the Yankees SHOULD do things or for you to get on your high horse about Joe Torre, just stick to giving us the inside dish...
Guaranteed money is one thing, but a cool 3 million riding on his bullpen management? Could you see Joba surviving a run to the playoffs and a postseason under Joe's "guiding hand"? No way.
Performance incentives of such a magnitude are a bad idea for a manager. Unless, I suppose, you think your player development system is so great that you can just keep bringing up live arms year after year to get burned out. Or management forces "Joba rules" on every reliever.
No matter what, the pressure is squarely on Cashman's shoulders.
Sorry, had to get it off my chest. Mo is the best, yes, but enough is enough. I want him back, yes, but sans all the drama.
I mean, Mo as a Philly? Give me a break. If that's what he wants, good riddance. I'm sure it won't be a question of money at that point. I think he owes Yankee fans more than that, regardles of how much his poor feelings have been supposedly hurt by Levine and co.
This all being said, please, Mariano, come back. I love ya.
Not that it's as bad as Bill Lee - Rodney Scott, but it's something to take note of.
He won't have to deal with with Bernie and Joe went through unless he wants to play past this next contract until he is 42.
I love Mo, and I really hope he comes back, but it does bother me a little that he is more loyal to Joe than the organization and the fans. Not terribly surprising, just a little disappointing.
A poignant essay as always, Alex. And oddly stoical.
I thought I was mentally prepared to deal with life without Joe but evidently not. Lots of emotion, disorientation and even fear, especially about how this impacts Andy, Mo and Jorgie.
So long, dear Joe, and thanks for all the fish.
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