Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
2007-10-18 12:51
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

The Yankees offered Joe Torre a one-year contract for $5 million. With that, Torre would make an extra million bucks for each round of the playoffs they Yankees won next year. Finally, there was a team option for 2009.

Joe turned them down.

Whatta ya hear, whatta ya say it ain't so Joe!

Comments (387)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-18 12:54:15
1.   williamnyy23
It looks like the deal is only one guaranteed year (with a second year team option) with a paycut. While I would have absolutely preferred that the team cut ties with Torre, I can live with the one year commitment, especially if it secures extensions with Mo and Posada and the return of Pettitte. Sure, this probably means the Yankees will lose a handful of games due to Torre's poor game management, but the stability might help mitigate against that.
2007-10-18 13:02:28
2.   Bama Yankee
So, does NJYankee41 win the Torre pool from the other day (with a guess of 2pm Thursday)?
2007-10-18 13:03:42
3.   trainwreck
I feel like I have seen this story before.
2007-10-18 13:06:03
4.   seamus
no deal. Torre is gone. He turned down the Yankees.
2007-10-18 13:06:16
5.   williamnyy23
Wow...Torre turned the contract offer down. That's the best of both worlds from standpoint.
2007-10-18 13:06:34
6.   Sliced Bread
randy levine:
team offered
$5 million base
$1 million division
$1 million alcs
$1 million w.s.

Joe turned it down! team moving forward quickly now...

2007-10-18 13:07:49
7.   seamus
i'm kind of in shock. not sure what else to say. But it looks like the Torre era is over. They offer him a 1 year deal for $5 million with $3 million in incentives and an option for a second year if gets us to the world series.
2007-10-18 13:08:03
8.   williamnyy23
Based on the terms of the offer, I don't think Torre has any comkplaints. They made him a fair offer and he decided to turn it down.
2007-10-18 13:08:10
9.   Nick from Washington Heights
2007-10-18 13:08:14
10.   Simone
Damn. Joe turned the offer down. I don't blame him 1 year is damn insulting. Now all his critics can turn their wrath towards someone else.
2007-10-18 13:08:17
11.   tommyl
I don't understand this. That seems like a very, very reasonable offer. What exactly did Joe want? If he turned all of this down why not just quit after the ALDS?
2007-10-18 13:08:37
12.   Vandelay Industries
Two words: Thanks Joe! This was all set up. This way the Yankees can move forward, and everyone saves face while at the same time taking pressure off the new manager.
2007-10-18 13:08:39
13.   trainwreck
Nevermind, I have not seen this story before.
2007-10-18 13:09:07
14.   trainwreck
He probably did not like the idea of a one year deal.
2007-10-18 13:09:18
15.   Vandelay Industries
11 Setup my friend, setup. It was all contrived beforehand.
2007-10-18 13:09:24
16.   Simone
5 Please, your Yankee fan life will be hell when you can't blame Joe for the rain stopping a game.
2007-10-18 13:09:34
17.   seamus
11 I would guess contract years was at issue. Also, it is technically a pay cut, though the incentives made it look otherwise.
2007-10-18 13:10:07
18.   domvjr
I agree with (12), this was just a pr move to take the heat off of Steinbrenner, who stuck his foot in his mouth. This way the onus was on Torre. They knew that he probably would consider this offer an insult.
2007-10-18 13:11:22
19.   tommyl
14 With an option and incentives to make it $8 per? He gets to close out the old stadium, maybe open the new one and play out what is likely the last year or two of the old guard. I'm baffled.
2007-10-18 13:11:24
20.   williamnyy23
12 That's exactly what I meant by the best of both worlds. I think Joe may be caught up a little in his celebrity. Now, the Yankees save a little face (assuming the media doesn't find a way to spin it to much in favor of Joe Torre) and finally move in a new direction.
2007-10-18 13:12:00
21.   williamnyy23
16 Yawn!
2007-10-18 13:12:27
22.   Vandelay Industries
So I assume its Donnie Baseball time? I'd rather eat my own shoe before I'd want Tony LaRussa managing this club.
2007-10-18 13:12:52
23.   tommyl
Oh man, this could get wild with the FA looming too. Have they named a replacement?
2007-10-18 13:13:08
24.   rbj
Still, wowzers. And all the journalists who were reporting that he'd be back. . . hmm.
2007-10-18 13:13:53
25.   Sliced Bread
22 word! Let the Donnie Baseball Era begin!
2007-10-18 13:14:48
26.   Vandelay Industries
24 Seriously? The sports media jumping the gun, only later to be proven wrong? What a rare occurence for these so-called journalists. Hacks one and all.
2007-10-18 13:16:44
27.   Vandelay Industries
Well, if Mo and Po do not sign now, what can you do? If they think the grass is greener without Joe, oh well.
2007-10-18 13:17:58
28.   rbj
I like Torre, and think he's been good overall for the team. Still, some fresh blood in there isn't a bad thing. I just hope Mo, Posada, and Pettitte (& A-Rod) stay.
2007-10-18 13:18:16
29.   Sliced Bread
Good for Joe. It's not the money he turned down, it's the principle. Why should he have to dance for his supper for the brothers Steinbrenner?

I don't blame Joe, and I'm happy for Mattingly if he gets the job... even if these Steinbrothers are going to make his life miserable.

2007-10-18 13:18:52
30.   williamnyy23
28 I don't think Arod cares who is manager. Mo is probably most likely to be upset, but Joe turned the Yankees down, not the other way around.
2007-10-18 13:19:44
31.   standuptriple
24 , 26 I think the term "journalists" is being used very loosely these days.
2007-10-18 13:19:50
32.   williamnyy23
29 Why should he have to earn his salary? Seriously?
2007-10-18 13:20:30
33.   Shaun P
I heard the soundbite from Levine too. But (call me crazy) are we sure this means he's done? "This is the offer - take or leave it." Were there any questions that clarified things?

If it was a 'setup', that would explain why Cashman wasn't there. But I'm inclined to believe it wasn't a setup.

2007-10-18 13:21:21
34.   Sliced Bread
32 the postseason incentives are an insult.
They made him an offer they knew he'd refuse.
Go ahead, be happy...
2007-10-18 13:21:25
35.   tommyl
29 I have to agree with 32 here. Its not as if the Yankees made him an insulting offer. Still the highest paid manager, incentives push it up to highest ever and the chance to close out the stadium. I don't really take that as insulting.
2007-10-18 13:21:47
36.   Shaun P
33 Scratch that. Pete Abe says Torre was accompanied to the meeting by Cashman. Still . . .
2007-10-18 13:22:02
37.   dianagramr
Why should Torre have to achieve incentives? Can you think of any other manager out there with incentives in his contract ... especially if that manager achieved them in a prior contract?

Glad Joe walked away from it ...

2007-10-18 13:22:08
38.   Alex Belth
2007-10-18 13:22:51
39.   Sliced Bread
37 right on!
2007-10-18 13:23:32
40.   tommyl
37 His "base" salary was $5 million, yes a paycut, but when you consider the next highest paid manager is Lou at $3.5 its not exactly like he was getting the ML minimum.
2007-10-18 13:23:37
41.   Shaun P
35 If it were me, the length of the deal, not the money, would be the problem. Without getting into the long statistical debate that has already been hashed out, it was essentially a one year contract. (Why - the odds are low that the Yanks would get to the Serious.)

When is the last time any major league manager has taken a one year contract?

2007-10-18 13:23:41
42.   nick
we'll see if the free agents think Joe was insulted....I'm not so sure, myself: was the whole thing (badly) staged?
2007-10-18 13:23:53
43.   Vandelay Industries
29 Umm. Because that is the career he has chosen. Every other manager has to "dance for his supper" and ever one of them makes less money than Joe. He didn't get the job done. I don't place all that at his feet and I like Joe, but he was the highest paid manager because the expectations are higher for the Yankees. Players cannot bitch and moan when they get one year offers with incentives when their abilities are in question, and neither ahould Joe. I stand by my contention that this was all contrived beforehand to make the transition more smooth.

Steve Phillips is a buffoon. Now, managers should get multiple year deals when they fail? What world is he living in?

2007-10-18 13:24:21
44.   Sliced Bread
40 They guaranteed him Farnsworth money... or less even? Look at it that way.
2007-10-18 13:24:49
45.   williamnyy23
37 Can you think of any other manager making the $5mn base to begin with? Torre was paid $6.5mn to make the World Series. He hasn't done that since 2003. Why shouldn't he take a base cut back to $5mn with the option to earn another $3mn if you accomplish your goal? Why does Joe Torre deserve special treatment. If Torre was a player, he'd be slammed for being greedy.
2007-10-18 13:26:01
46.   tommyl
44 Managers always make much less than players. The highest paid manager in the game makes less than Krazy Kyle, what's your point? They should have offered him A-Rod/Jeter money?
2007-10-18 13:26:31
47.   rbj
I'm just wondering, with Cashman playing hardball on A-Rod, the lower base salary to Torre, and in one way getting younger guys in there, is the Yankees financial health in the best of shape? The inheritance tax goes away in 2010, but it's back with a vengeance in 2011. Maybe the Yankees do need to cut back on their spending.
2007-10-18 13:26:37
48.   williamnyy23
44 That's a silly comparison. Managers and players have a vastly different pay scale.
2007-10-18 13:26:57
49.   ms october
Mark it down - it took less than 5 minutes for Steve Phillips to bring up his arrogat or ignorant for us to think we should win the WS every year comment. Eff you Steve Phillips.
2007-10-18 13:27:22
50.   Mattpat11
I am interested to see people's reactions when the next manager makes the same moves Joe did.

I doubt they will. Scioscia is still held as some jewel despite bumbling away his team's playoffs twice in four years.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-18 13:27:33
51.   pistolpete
No Donnie, please. Love him, but no.

37 From the Yankees' perspective, how can they realistically keep throwing 3-year deals at the guy if this is going to be the end result every season?

I understand why Joe walked away, but I can't see them offering him any much more than what they did.

2007-10-18 13:28:26
52.   standuptriple
I don't think the $ was an insult at all. He's had a great run but seems to have hit a wall. Will he get anything close to that in the open market? No way. Will he get more years? Probably. Will he make the playoffs with another team? Not likely.
2007-10-18 13:28:36
53.   tommyl
I know I've said its time for a change and all, but you will be missed Joe. Thanks for a great run. Wow, I still cannot believe I was at the very last game that Joe Torre will ever manage for the Yankees.
2007-10-18 13:28:41
54.   Shaun P
47 Something tells me that the Yanks' tax attorneys have already figured out how to minimize the effects of the estate tax when George dies.

Shoot, if the Maras and the Tischs could retain ownership of the Giants AND build a new stadium, no reason the Steinbrenners can't do the same thing.

Again, IMHO, the money is a red herring. Its the years.

2007-10-18 13:29:20
55.   williamnyy23
51 You also have to consider Joe's age. At 68, a 3-year deal seems a little much to me. Torre isn't exactly a spring chicken.
2007-10-18 13:30:44
56.   Sliced Bread
46-48 yeah yeah apples oranges whatever. I'm glad Joe told 'em to stick it.

Bottomline, if you wanted Joe gone you got your wish. Congratulations.

The team will be in good hands with Mattingly or Girardi, that's all that matters.

2007-10-18 13:31:40
57.   ms october
I don't know if this is true considering how wrong they got the story at first, but ESPN is saying a 2009 option would have only kicked in if Yanks made the WS.
2007-10-18 13:31:44
58.   pistolpete
There's no such thing as a smooth transition in the world of baseball, it seems.

Remember '95? I have a similar queasy feeling in my gut, but hopefully it all works out for the best.

Just no Donnie.

2007-10-18 13:31:47
59.   standuptriple
Let's not pretend they gave him the shaft. They said if you make it to the World Series next year you'll get to open the new Stadium, cementing yourself as one of the greatest managers of all time. Not a bad give and take if you ask me.
2007-10-18 13:32:13
60.   Shaun P
57 That was my understanding as well (and Dibble and Kennedy's on XM too).
2007-10-18 13:32:29
61.   Bama Yankee
Buster Olney is starting a new book:
"The Last Night of Green Tea"
2007-10-18 13:32:30
62.   Vandelay Industries
Look, the exacerbated payroll is to blame for much of this. If we were at say 100,000,000 I could understand making a two year offer. I know winning the WS is difficult, but when you are the Yankees and you have a near 200,000,000 payroll, your manager has higher expectaions than Bobby Cox. Its just that simple. You have the tools and you didn't succeed, now you want a guaranteed multi-year deal?

And to say that Rookie pitchers and injuries caused this is silly. We won because of our rookies, not in spite of them. If Joe had his way we would have spent the entire season with spent washed up veteran free agents in our rotation. If you believe otherwise, you don't know Joe. If we spent 162 games with out pre-season rotation, we likely miss the playoffs altogether.

2007-10-18 13:32:54
63.   Shaun P
58 Its funny, I was thinking the same thing, except my thought was: "Just no Girardi."
2007-10-18 13:33:07
64.   williamnyy23
56 I am glad he turned it down too. Apparently, Joe's heart wasn't in it anymore, so it's a good thing he didn't hang on to earn a measly extra $5mn bucks.
2007-10-18 13:33:10
65.   tommyl
60 I thought it was a team option but it automatically vested if he made the Serious. Not sure though...
2007-10-18 13:33:34
66.   rbj
54 I agree that it's the length, not the money. Still not convinced the Yankees are 100% financially healthy -- maybe 95%. The Cooks lost the Redskins when the old man passed away. Not that I mind having Dan Snyder ruin the team.
2007-10-18 13:35:21
67.   williamnyy23
If any combination of Mariano/Posada/Arod do not return, the new Yankee manager will have a built-in excuse. I think the composition of the Yankee roster will determine the amount of pressure on the next manager.
2007-10-18 13:35:31
68.   Vandelay Industries
If Donnie wants a placeholder manager between he and Joe, I would love to see Bobby V. get a shot. He's better than LaRussa, that's for sure.
2007-10-18 13:35:45
69.   monkeypants
I would just like to point out that in Alex's "The Power of Joe" post, I commented at #11:

"Will Torre be back?
I think the answer is no. The team, I suspect, is looking at a way to extricate themselves from a sticky public opinion situation, and they may be canvassing potential managers to guarantee they have someone they want to fill the job. When that happens, they will offer Torre some odd FO job, putting the ball back in his court. He will then retire.

That's my prediction. "

OK, so in retrospect my prediction wasn't perfect, but it played out pretty close to what I thought. the Yankees made him an offer that he could (and probably would) refuse, and he did.

2007-10-18 13:35:54
70.   pistolpete
65 From ESPN:

"The Yankees offered Torre a one-year deal with a base salary of $5 million and incentives that would have increased his salary to $8 million based on postseason performance. Under that offer, if Torre reached the World Series in 2008, an option for 2009 would have vested."

Sounds like exactly what everyone is speculating about - if he reached the WS in '08, he gets to come back in '09.

Of course, I imagine that part of the deal could always be changed.

2007-10-18 13:36:24
71.   williamnyy23
68 I'd like to see Pena or Bowa take a similar 1-year/1-option deal.
2007-10-18 13:37:03
72.   Vandelay Industries
67 I agree. And if they don't sign, well, they can join Manny in the "Id rather get paid than win" club. I love em' but if they turn their backs in the team that has overpaid them for years, good riddance.
2007-10-18 13:37:30
73.   ms october
66 I think it is the length as well as the "idea" of incentives. I think in terms of the financial health that some of the rumors about the kids wanting to get spending under control are true (and Cashman has been trying to be more budget concsious of late as well - with a few exceptions - but at least putting the idea of a budget into place)
2007-10-18 13:38:28
74.   Alex Belth
So you think the Yanks made an offer they thought Joe would turn down?
2007-10-18 13:39:13
75.   Mattpat11
72 If this team loses Rivera, Farnsworth is the closer.
2007-10-18 13:39:14
76.   pistolpete
72 Queasiness is getting worse. We can't afford to lose ANY of those 3 FA's - unless Clemens comes back or Moose returns to some semblance of their old selves, we're dealing with Wang and 3 rookies in our starting staff.

Yikes. Can you say 'Santana'?

2007-10-18 13:40:04
77.   AbbyNormal821
OK - I"m in shock right now - JEEEEEZ!!
Maybe someone answered this already, but was the deal offered to Torre final, or was it open to re-negotiating?
2007-10-18 13:40:13
78.   pistolpete
75 Stop it.

76 And all of them dealing with a new catcher to boot!

2007-10-18 13:40:28
79.   Alex Belth
Levine told reporters the Yankees want to go to a "performance-based" model in terms on their managers. What an insult. Was Torre NOT trying to win?

All I can say is, good luck to the next schnook who takes over.

2007-10-18 13:40:48
80.   tommyl
74 I honestly don't. That really doesn't seem to be Cashman's style and I think he and Joe are too good of friends. If they were going to do that, I don't think they'd have dispatched Cashman to get him and do it face to face. In addition, the offer was relatively reasonable, its not as if they lowballed him. He'd still be highest paid by at least 1.5 million.
2007-10-18 13:40:56
81.   Vandelay Industries
74 Yes. In the alternantive I think the whole deal was set up beforehand to make the entire transition easier. Joe turns down the offer and the team moves forward, rather than Joe gets canned and the new manager has to follow with that addittional pressure. It make sense form a PR perspective, and clearly the brothers Stein care more about PR than the old man.
2007-10-18 13:41:20
82.   ms october
74 Good question. I did not think it would play out with an offer/turn down scenario so I have no idea.
77 According to FO - FINAL.
2007-10-18 13:41:26
83.   thelarmis
71 me too.
2007-10-18 13:42:31
84.   williamnyy23
74 I don't think so...all reports were Torre really wanted to return and manage this team of youngsters, so why would they expect him to turn down a guaranteed $5mn with reachable, lucrative incentives? Unfortunately, I think Torre has gotten wrapped up in his status and celebrity...maybe he thinks he should be above incentives and short-term deals? If so, I think this was the perfect time to cut ties and search for a hungry manager whose main focus is on winning baseball games.
2007-10-18 13:42:42
85.   tommyl
79 Ok, now that is an insult. Levine strikes me as really shifty. Anyone else get that impression?

78 Posada is far and away the best catcher in baseball right now, but handling pitchers has never been his strong suit. Hughes for example seemed to have much better pitch selection the one game he threw to Molina.

2007-10-18 13:43:10
86.   Mattpat11
78 He isn't?


2007-10-18 13:43:19
87.   Vandelay Industries
83 So, why wouldn't that be an insult to them? This is basebal, not a lemonade stand. Joe shouldn't expect any more than any other manager. We aren't Notre Dame. WE don't offer multi-year deals for incompetence.
2007-10-18 13:43:29
88.   Shaun P
68 I fail to understand the desire for Valentine. When he managed the Mets, he did all the stuff that Torre did that drove many of us nuts - bad tactician, too formulaic in his bullpen usage, preferred vets to young guys - and the next young starter he develops will be his first since Bobby Witt in 1986. Pass, pass, please pass.
2007-10-18 13:43:53
89.   JoeInRI
It's the 80's all over again . . .
2007-10-18 13:44:20
90.   Alex Belth
Levine strikes me as extremely slimey.
2007-10-18 13:44:48
91.   JoeInRI
87 Incompetence??? Are you kidding me?
2007-10-18 13:44:54
92.   williamnyy23
79 Why are incentives an insult? Everyone seems to love them for players. Don't they also try to get a hit every time up? Incentives have become a part of corporate executive pay. There is no reason why billion dollar baseball teams shouldn't adopt the same strategy.
2007-10-18 13:44:56
93.   Mattpat11
87 "WE don't offer multi-year deals for incompetence. "

We only offer incompetent players multi-year deals.

2007-10-18 13:44:58
94.   pistolpete
86 If Farnsworth becomes the closer, no way I'm posting on the same message board with the likes of you next season...

You'll redefine 'insufferable'.

2007-10-18 13:45:01
95.   Alex Belth
I like Bobby V only because it'd be a freak show. It it's going to be nuts, at least let it be entertaining. And there is rarely a dull moment with Bobby V.
2007-10-18 13:45:34
96.   ms october
85 A little bit on Levine. I like Cashman much better.

88 Agree - no Valentine please.

2007-10-18 13:46:31
97.   JoeInRI
What's Karim Garcia doing?
2007-10-18 13:46:43
98.   Schteeve
The should hire A-Rod's dad.
2007-10-18 13:47:05
99.   tommyl
92 I can see the argument that the incentives were insulting, but look at it this way, the Yankees make a windfall when they get into the postseason, what's wrong with sharing some of that with the manager?
2007-10-18 13:47:30
100.   Mattpat11
94 Insufferable will be watching Kyle Farnsworth pitch in walk off situations.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-18 13:47:35
101.   williamnyy23
98 Heck...hire Arod himself. Player manager?

Batting 9th...the short stop...#2...Derek Jee-ter...#2.

2007-10-18 13:47:53
102.   Bama Yankee
97 Ten to twenty with only a slight chance of parole... ;-)
2007-10-18 13:47:55
103.   Mattpat11
98 The deadbeat?
2007-10-18 13:48:12
104.   rbj
No Valentine. Came across as an insufferable prick on BBTN, and with all the veteran players who are used to Torre's calm demeanor, I think Bobby would lose the clubhouse early on.
2007-10-18 13:48:15
105.   pistolpete
The more I think about it, the more I think the '09 option was what caused him to walk away.

If it was guaranteed 2 years at 5 or 6 mil, he'd probably have stayed.

2007-10-18 13:48:29
106.   bhsportsguy
95 Will the Yankees hire someone before the World Series starts? You know how Bud does not like teams to make this announcements during the World Series.
2007-10-18 13:49:07
107.   AbbyNormal821
82 Thanks..., I'm stunned. I feel all weird inside. I'm not sure how to react. I would hate to see Mo & Po elsewhere either.
UGH! This is depressing (to me, anyway)
2007-10-18 13:49:15
108.   Schteeve
By the way, Bobby V is under contract with the Japanese team he manages. If they want him they'll probably have to buy him out of that contract.
2007-10-18 13:49:17
109.   ms october
101 Jeter would not still be at SS.
2007-10-18 13:49:45
110.   Mattpat11
106 More incentive to do so.
2007-10-18 13:49:47
111.   williamnyy23
99 Even if they are "insulting" Joe Torre still turned down $5mn to manage the Yankees. I am sorry, but I don't see a case for how principle trumps that offer, especially when you profess to love the job.

Listening to Cashman, it seems as if his tone is thanks Torre for making me look like an ass.

2007-10-18 13:51:43
112.   standuptriple
98 What about A-Rod's brother? He's amilitary man, right? Whip those rookies right into shape.
2007-10-18 13:51:57
113.   pistolpete
110 Ha. If this was the old George, he'd break into the Game 7 postgame celebration with a press conference...

I would think they gotta get this resolved before the A-Rod deadline.

2007-10-18 13:52:03
114.   rbj
106 With the prospect of 5 days off and a Cleveland - Colorado WS, I think Bud would beg the Yankees to so something just to get baseball in the news.

Hey, maybe hire & fire Torre a couple of times.

2007-10-18 13:52:31
115.   Shaun P
105 I totally agree. Still, I don't think it was a setup 79 Alex - though they can't be surprised at all that he turned it down.

71 Alex is right - Bobby V would at least be a show (the ship might sink during the performance, however) - but I'd sooner have Girardi than those two. Great coaches, but poor managers, each in their own way.

2007-10-18 13:52:55
116.   Bama Yankee
108 Maybe they could buy out Willie's contract from the Mets...

or maybe we could trade Farns for Willie...

2007-10-18 13:52:59
117.   JoeInRI
113 "Mr. Rodriguez, sir . . . who would YOU like to manage the Yankees?"
2007-10-18 13:53:18
118.   Mattpat11
114 More incentive not to do anything.
2007-10-18 13:53:22
119.   williamnyy23
116 Deal.
2007-10-18 13:53:29
120.   Max
111 If that's true about Cashman's tone, then great...he deserves it, because he is an ass. He still hasn't gotten an adequate share of blame for how this last season went down (and the previous seasons for that matter). Just blame it all on Joe.

I hope the heat stays on Cash for the foreseeable future.

2007-10-18 13:53:53
121.   Mattpat11
116 Do it.
2007-10-18 13:54:04
122.   ms october
Gammons is talking about the Torre-Levine riff having a part in the way this played out.
2007-10-18 13:54:10
123.   monkeypants
105 I agree that the second year was probably the key. But I don't get how a guy who in the past agonized over whether or not to retire would only resign if he was guaranteed more years.

111 I agree.

In all of this the Yanlees have come off looking e-v-i-l, and Torre looks like a saint. The former is not off the base, to be sure. The latter? Let's just say Torre is not, in my mind, the innocent lamb that he has been made out to be.

2007-10-18 13:54:28
124.   williamnyy23
117 Hey...the Yankees now have an extra $7mn to spend. If Arod does opt out, that savings could replace the lost Texas subsidy. Hmm....
2007-10-18 13:55:34
125.   Mattpat11
124 They'll probably sign Joe Borowski.
2007-10-18 13:55:38
126.   Shaun P
111 Please name me the last manager to accept a one year contract to manager a major league team.

IIRC, even Bucky Dent got a two year deal way, way back in the day.

2007-10-18 13:56:02
127.   Schteeve
120 Hughes, Joba, Cano, Melky, Ian Kennedy. Yep, cashman sure is a fuck up.
2007-10-18 13:56:05
128.   williamnyy23
120 The heat is always on Cash, who makes a fraction of what Joe does. I am happy that at this tumultous time, Cashman is at the helm. I have confidence in his ability to keep the ship afloat.
2007-10-18 13:56:11
129.   monkeypants
113 It will be resolved quickly, because the next manager will either be Girardi or Mattingly--both essentially internal candidates. And I have to imagine that A-Rod already knows this, or will know it soon.
2007-10-18 13:57:31
130.   JoeInRI
Cashman stated that this "process" will take some time . . .
2007-10-18 13:58:18
131.   williamnyy23
126 In that one year, Torre had the potential to make more than most managers make over 3-4 years. I guarantee you 99% of candidates would jump at the chance to sign a one-year $5mn deal.
2007-10-18 13:58:19
132.   nick
I don't like Levine the same time, I'm wondering: based on legitimate expections, given Yankee financial resources, what would a "performance-based" model look like?

Something like this, right?

no playoffs=fired immediately
lose 3 consecutive postseason series=fired
fail to make WS after 4 years=fired

The question, to me, is does Joe get extra credit for 1996-00 when evaluating his 01-07 performance? If not, he deserves to go. If you add it all together, maybe he deserves more time. But another long-term contract? I'm doubtful.

Of course, it's possible that the manager should get credit simply for making the postseason. For most teams, this would seem obvious. But the Yanks are unique in this respect....All in all I don't think Joe's a bad manager, and I like him a lot. But I do think that his defenders fail to consider that expectations of a post YES network Yankee managers are LEGITIMATELY unique. Standards are legitimately different.

2007-10-18 13:58:20
133.   Shaun P
123 Torre wants the guaranteed second year for the same reason everyone would - protection. That way, if he were to get fired during or after the '08 season, he'd still be paid for '09.

Given who he's working for, and the environment he's working in, I can't blame him.

2007-10-18 13:58:30
134.   Schteeve
123 How do the Yankees look evil in this. We are blowing this way out of proportion. The team offered Torre a Top Tier deal for a manager and he turned them down. What's so insulting or evil in any of that. They made Joe a millionaire many times over, I don't feel bad for him or feel that he was mistreated.
2007-10-18 13:58:44
135.   Mattpat11
128 I was pretty comfortable until the Igawa mishap and the continuing Farnsworthyness.
2007-10-18 13:59:12
136.   monkeypants
126 Well, from a article dated 3/20/2007:

"VERO BEACH, Fla. -- Grady Little, the Dodgers' surprising hire as manager more than a year ago, was rewarded Tuesday for last season's on-field turnaround with a one-year contract extension."

Oh, and the next paragraph:

"Little's original contract was for two years plus an option for 2008. The club guaranteed that option and added a 2009 option. His annual salary has been estimated at $600,000, which would be in the bottom quarter of all managers, with Yankees manager Joe Torre's $7.5 million at the top."

So, the Yankees did nothing unprecedented in their offer.

2007-10-18 13:59:30
137.   Max
128 Good for you. I say if the Yankees don't make the playoffs next year, Cash should be gone.

This is not out of any sympathy for Torre, as I've frequently stated I was fine with a change this year. But at some point other people have to be held accountable. Pay scale has nothing to do with how accountable someone is -- if Cashman were living off an inheritance and working for free, I'd still want him gone if the team tanks in 2008.

2007-10-18 13:59:34
138.   williamnyy23
130 As it should...I sincerely hope they interview many, many candidates. The key is to find the right man.
2007-10-18 14:01:59
139.   monkeypants
133 I'm just saying there is a dissonance between "anguished Joe who doesn't know if he wants to manage any more" and "Torre who demands longer term security." Indeed, this suggests that Torre was playing hardball just as much as the Yankees. I don't blame him for wanting more years, but then I think we need to put a lid on the "Yankees disrespecting the old boy" rhetoric.

By the way, how much security does a multi-millionaire need? And wouldn't he expect to be scooped up almost immediately if fired?

2007-10-18 14:02:23
140.   williamnyy23
133 So, Torre needs financial security? A $5mn deal with all the perks that come with managing in NY isn't enough to offer security(coming on the heels of the $40mn+ he has made over the past 12 seasons)?
2007-10-18 14:02:40
141.   Shaun P
131 I'm sorry, I'm not willing to accept the money trumps years argument. Unless you can name me the last manager to accept a one year contract. (Note - one year extension does not count.)
2007-10-18 14:04:40
142.   monkeypants
134 I agree with you, man. I'm just talking from a PR perspective--they have been the bad guy ever since Big Papi came out in favor of Torre, if not before. And I am not naive enough to think that the Yanks weren't playing hardball. But I think think the handwringing and rent garments over the "firing" (that is, "not rehiring"...that is, "the potential employee turned down 5 million dollars") for St. Joe is a bit much.
2007-10-18 14:04:41
143.   williamnyy23
137 If Cashman assembles a roster that can't compete, then I'd have no problem with considering his dismal. Even more so, I wouldn't object to his being offered a short-term, incentive-laden deal.
2007-10-18 14:05:39
144.   monkeypants
141 "(Note - one year extension does not count.) "

Ummm...wouldn't this have been a one year extension?

2007-10-18 14:06:15
145.   Shaun P
136 see 141 . One year extensions are commonplace, but aren't one year deals. They are often offered (and accepted) in the middle of multi-year deals.

139 FWIW, I don't think the Yanks disrespected Torre.

140 I don't think I'm going to get you to open your eyes on this, so I'm going to stop trying.

2007-10-18 14:06:32
146.   tommyl
143 Actually, interestind tidbit, when Cash took over for Stick, he demanded a one year deal to prove his worth.
2007-10-18 14:06:40
147.   williamnyy23
139 Exactly...just last week, Torre supporters would have been fine with a 1-year extension. Now, because Joe turned it down, it's an insult. I don't blame Torre for holding out for more money, but that doesn't mean he should be portrayed as a victim. If a player did the same thing, he'd be vilified.
2007-10-18 14:07:19
148.   Shaun P
144 No, his contract is up. This would have been a new contract.
2007-10-18 14:08:28
149.   williamnyy23
141 Why doesn't a one-year extension count? Besides, isn't Torre being extended in the first place? You are falling all over yourself trying to make Torre look like a victim. It just aint so.
2007-10-18 14:11:08
150.   C2Coke
I am coming out by telling the truth: I am too young to remember a Yankee team not managed by Torre. Regardless of how the roster might change, next year, it's a very different team.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-18 14:12:21
151.   fgasparini
"No, his contract is up. This would have been a new contract."

A distinction without a difference. 149 you are dead right.

2007-10-18 14:12:40
152.   Shaun P
149 I myself have never said that this was an insult, or that Torre was a victim. I just understand why Torre turned it down. You do not seem to be able to understand that all, as you continue to repeat how much money he would have made.

Look, as a legal matter, you cannot extend a contract that has expired. The old contract is up. Poof. Gone. An extension, by definition, has to occur during the pendancy of the existing deal.

2007-10-18 14:14:16
153.   fgasparini
152 Torre's contract has not yet expired.
2007-10-18 14:14:57
154.   tommyl
150 I'm not too young. Lets all not forget that Buck Showalter did a very good job for a number of years before Joe and when Joe was brought in to replace him most of us thought the sky was falling. I mean at the time Joe had basically taken winning teams and turned them to crap (remember "Clueless Joe"?). Yes, the team will be different next year, but don't jump out the window just yet. Lets see how this plays out.
2007-10-18 14:15:23
155.   monkeypants
148 I think that is a bit misleading. There is a vast difference between a coach walking into a completely new clubhouse with only a one year mandate to "turn things around" or whatever. Torre's one year "new contract" was, de facto, an extension on more than a decade of clubhouse and roster continuity. he would be coaching not a new team, but essentially the same team (and indeed, depending on FAs, nearly the identical team).
2007-10-18 14:16:41
156.   williamnyy23
152 I can understand why he turned it were more important than having another season to manage the New York Yankees. I don't blame him for making that decision, but that's exactly how it should be presented.

If you are going to get technical, Torre is still under contract until the end of the World Series, so his old contract has not yet expired. Regardless, it's all semantics.

2007-10-18 14:18:44
157.   Vandelay Industries
149 I agree, and I think its good for sports in general. Too many teams saddle their fans by signing coaches and managers to huge long-term deals and then when the coach shits the bed, or is at odds with management they fire the clown and then he sues for a big chunk of his remaining contract. Larry Brown has made more money not coaching then he has coaching because he has been awarded substantial chunks of his future contract guarantees once he decides to contrive some reason to leave or be fired. Kudos to the Yankees. Its time people stop using security as some bogus excuse. If you make millions for one year, you already have more security than the other 270 million people who reside in the US of A. Take the deal or dont take the deal, but dont hand me this security garbage.
2007-10-18 14:18:47
158.   williamnyy23
154 Joe is walking away at a great time for his legacy because 2008 could be a mini-transition season with or without Joe. With some big name FAs possibly leaving, a few aging vets and a rotation full of youngsters, the 2008 team might be taking a step back anyway. If that happens, Joe will look even better. On the otherhand, if he returned and the team had an off season, then his legacy would have been damaged a bit. Perhaps that factored into Joe's decision as well.
2007-10-18 14:19:23
159.   Raf
150 They'll survive. I'm young enough to remember Billy part III.
2007-10-18 14:21:06
160.   tommyl
I'm also hungering for some Cliff anaylsis. Anyone else?
2007-10-18 14:21:34
161.   williamnyy23
159 If the old G.S. was still with us, the FOX pre-game would have Joe Torre being introduced as the new Yankee manager after all.
2007-10-18 14:21:58
162.   NJYankee41
2 Do I win anything? It's gonna be weird without Torre.
2007-10-18 14:22:30
163.   Shaun P
155 I don't see where you're coming from. I will try to make my point one more time.

Torre's first deal: 2 years (96-97)
Torre's next deal: 3 years (signed in 2/97, negating the second year of the original deal) (97-99)
Torre's next deal: 2 years (00-01)
Torre's next deal: 3 years (02-04)
Torre's next deal: 3 year extension (05-07)

New offer: 1 year

I do not think Joe Torre was insulted.

I do not think Joe Torre is a victim.

I do not think Joe Torre is in need of financial security*.

*Especially because his 3 year extension signed in April 2004 includes a 6-year consulting agreement

I do see why Joe Torre turned down this offer.

And, by the way - who signs an extension with a lesser salary? If I was being signed to a contract extension, I'd expect to see my salary stay the same, or go up - not down.

2007-10-18 14:22:38
164.   Vandelay Industries
154 Exactly! He was perhaps just a good fit for the Yankees, I don't really know. But to say that a man who will likely sandwich one very good managing record between two horrible ones which will be much longer in time than the former deserves some huge long term deal is laughable. When he fails to even get his next team to the PS, what will we all say then?
2007-10-18 14:23:56
165.   Raf
How I think it went down;
2007-10-18 14:25:14
166.   Schteeve
this is so nuts. I'm pretty sure that if I were hired tomorrow, I could manage the Yankees to at least 88 wins next year assuming A-Rod sticks around.
2007-10-18 14:25:16
167.   Schteeve
this is so nuts. I'm pretty sure that if I were hired tomorrow, I could manage the Yankees to at least 88 wins next year assuming A-Rod sticks around.
2007-10-18 14:25:36
168.   Vandelay Industries
"And, by the way - who signs an extension with a lesser salary? If I was being signed to a contract extension, I'd expect to see my salary stay the same, or go up - not down."

Sports is about the only sector of the economy in which this has been true for the past six years. The fact is that Joe's offer was actually in line with what is going on everywhere else in the private sector.

2007-10-18 14:26:35
169.   seamus
well, now get to wait for a manager. I know Cashman said today that it would take some time, but don't the Yankees want someone sooner rather than later so that they can turn to Posada, Pettitte, Arod, etc... and say - see, we've got Donnie (or Joey) and life is great... Stay.
2007-10-18 14:27:17
170.   tommyl
168 Um, every aging player in baseball or football?
2007-10-18 14:27:26
171.   Eirias
So, is Cashman going to lose much because of this. He probably went out on a limb to get a new offer made to Joe, but given this rather public slap in the face, do you think he lost face?
2007-10-18 14:30:21
172.   cult of basebaal
I think another aspect that may have been critical in torre's decision is something the extent of which we don't (and may never) know ... in the last thread, someone posted a nugget from Dan Graziano, that stated that the yankees were discussing the extent of language in torre's new contract that would dilineate a change in the decision making process of roster construction and probably player implementation ... in short, the yankees were explicitly acknowledging their belief that they didn't trust torre's judgement on a number of fronts

if the proposed extension included that kind of language, it could have very well helped form joe's decision to turn down the offer ...

2007-10-18 14:30:37
173.   Yankees Chick
i'm surprised, honestly.

my take is this: they had no intention of firing him but respected him enough to let him go w/ dignity, so they came up with this plan; this way torre gets the last word, stein and gang don't look as evil, etc.

what is next though? the anticipation is killing me.

2007-10-18 14:30:55
174.   williamnyy23
171 I think Cashman isn't very happy, mostly because he knows this team has a possible transition ahead and it might not be the best time to make a change. I think the rest of the brass is very happy that Torre resigned and they didn't have to fire him.
2007-10-18 14:31:24
175.   Schteeve
170 VI was quoting someone else.
2007-10-18 14:31:49
176.   monkeypants
163 I see what you're saying. My point is this:

You said no one accepts a one year coaching contract, excluding extension. You state that Torre's offer was a one year, new contract. Ergo, the offer was (naturally) unacceptable to Torre.

I countered that we should not envision the offer as a one year, new contract because 1] his current contract is not up, and 2] in any case the situation is de facto a contract extension. If we envision this as an extension, not a new contract, then your assertion that no coaches are offered one year contracts is rendered moot.

Or mute. ; )

2007-10-18 14:32:34
177.   Yankees Chick
woops i meant they have no intention of KEEPING him
2007-10-18 14:32:37
178.   tommyl
172 That was me who posted it, and I actually forgot. You make a good point. Maybe the language had so many strings he wouldn't deal with it. That said, some of the strings (e.g. the Joba rules, trading Proctor, forcing the callup of Duncan) greatly benefitted the team. If Joe couldnt' see that, then maybe its for the best.
2007-10-18 14:32:53
179.   Vandelay Industries
171 Na. He made a fair offer, which they both knew beforehand would be refused. I think everyone saves face here, which is why they did it this way, to lessen the pressure on whoever replaces Torre. It is different to replace a fired manager under the circumstances than to replace a manger who was offered a contract and turns it down. It helps Cashman and the new manager, and although it appears brash, perhaps the last classy move my Joe.
2007-10-18 14:33:13
180.   williamnyy23
176 Also, Torre will be 69 next season! He is getting to an age where long-term deals aren't optimal.
2007-10-18 14:33:49
181.   tommyl
176 mute! haha, way to bring that one back. When was that? May or something?
2007-10-18 14:36:44
182.   Vandelay Industries
178 Like I said before, if Joe had his way this past season we would have signed washed up veteran free agent pitchers to fill out the rotation, and not used the rookies. That is the way he does things, and Cashman put a stop to it this past season. We won despite Joe this year, not because of him. Im not bashing the guy, he just has a way of doing things, and would be much better as a bench coach/stabilizing influence in a clubhouse, rather than making in game and roster decisions, which his time prior to the Yankees showed, and his time following the Yankees will show once again.
2007-10-18 14:40:32
183.   ms october
If the FO really wanted JT they would have made a counter offer. I re-listened to the conference call and Levine said when JT turned them down they decided to move on. I don't necessarily buy this in full, but Peter Gammons said he thinks that something happened at the meeting as far as the interaction that made JT turn it down - I think Levine presented the contract in such a manner that JT knew he was not really wanted and turned it down in addition to the terms of the contract.
2007-10-18 14:41:44
184.   tommyl
183 I wouldn't take Gammons speculations very far at all.
2007-10-18 14:43:19
185.   Vandelay Industries
184 You mean the same man who reported one hour earlier that Joe was signing a one year deal?
2007-10-18 14:43:24
186.   OldYanksFan
153 The terms of this 'new contract' are very different then the existing, almost over contract. I think that would mean it's not an extension. Extensions don't usually have pay cuts.

That said, I am STUNNED!
Yes, the 1 yr. term and the paycut are somewhat insulting, but JT knew there were issues and the FO wasn't real happy. All in all, it was not the best, but a decent deal, circumstances considered.

I guess Torre's ego is bigger and more bruised then I thought. Considering this is the Stadium's last year, I would have thought Joe would have 'reluctantly' taken the deal.

I guess he didn't was to manage the Yankees that badly.
I'm very bummed. VERY BUMMED! I hope this team does not get too screwed.

2007-10-18 14:43:56
187.   yankz
I don't think this was some ploy by the Yankees. If they didn't want him back, offering him potentially $8 million! and the chance to close the old stadium and open the new one while simultaneously expecting him to turn it down is a huge fucking risk to take.
2007-10-18 14:44:07
188.   williamnyy23
Everyone is getting all wrapped up in money/years/principle, but the fact of the matter is Joe Torre could have managed the 2008 Yankees if he so desired. While it seemed that was his main motivation, other factors have since taken precedence.
2007-10-18 14:44:38
189.   tommyl
187 Agreed. There's way too much money and other things at stake to play an idiotic game of chicken for PR reasons.
2007-10-18 14:45:40
190.   ms october
184 I'm not - I don't know why he is more worried about this then the devastating news that Josh Beckett's ex-girlfriend is singing the national anthem tonight. But Torre going to Tampa to turn it down doesn't make sense to me. Maybe that is normal and I don't know it, but I do think something in the meeting convinced Torre to reject the offer.
2007-10-18 14:48:02
191.   yankee23
165 Yeah? I think it might've gone more like this:
2007-10-18 14:48:06
192.   williamnyy23
As interesting as this episode has been, the status of Rivera/Posada/Arod is so much more important to the future of the Yankees. My only concern with having to find a new manager is that it might detract from other more important business.
2007-10-18 14:49:51
193.   tommyl
192 Methinks Cashman is going to be pulling a few all nighters. Feel bad for his family.
2007-10-18 14:52:27
194.   williamnyy23
193 Which is why Cashman seemed to be the only sullen person on the conference call.

Assuming Cashman was instrumental in getting this offer made to Joe, I wonder if he holds any ill will toward Torre? After sticking his neck out for Joe last season, would it have killed Torre to swallow his pride and take an incentive-laden deal?

2007-10-18 14:52:28
195.   Sarasota
188 yor hatred of Torre blinds you. Today a Yankees icon makes all true Yankees fans proud because he left on his own terms. He rejected what was for all intents and purposes a slap in the face/"save face" offer. You don't offer someone a paycut and performance bonuses to win when he is already a proven winner. Finally if as Levine stated in the press conference the entire FO shared the blame for recent failures where/when is the axe falling on his or Cashman's head.
2007-10-18 14:54:57
196.   bobtaco
192 Word.
2007-10-18 14:55:06
197.   OldYanksFan
Was this conference call recorded? It is released to the public?
I'm fucking SHOCKED!
2007-10-18 14:55:09
198.   tommyl
Well there goes the extra strings thoery:

Levine emphasized that Torre would have remained the highest-paid manager in baseball, and said that it was a fair offer. Levine said there would have been no other conditions placed upon his return, such as a change in coaching staff, simply a different salary. Since Torre has not spoken on his reasons for turning the offer down, it's not clear what was the breaking point. The fact that it was only a one-year deal could have been the breaker.

2007-10-18 14:55:27
199.   yankz
Man, I don't even remember life without Joe. This is going to be weird, to say the least.
2007-10-18 14:56:19
200.   williamnyy23
195 Your hatred of facts blinds you. If you want to make Joe into a martyr, then feel free. "Poor Joe" just doesn't make for a very persuasive argument.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-10-18 14:56:48
201.   yankz
I'm terrified of a domino effect. Mo is pissed, so he walks. Jorge thinks, "No Mo or Joe? Hell no!" Then Andy thinks, "I could get a multi-year deal somewhere, and what's the point of staying with only Jeter left?
2007-10-18 14:56:52
202.   williamnyy23
197 PeteAbe has it posted.
2007-10-18 14:58:05
203.   standuptriple
It's a new era of baseball analysis that I think Joe was reluctant to embrace that did him in. Now I'm not saying they'll hire a robot or some SABRite, but the BFOG+ style isn't cutting it. Happy Trails Joe! Now go add some sanity to BBTN and kick Steve Phillips in the teeth nightly.
2007-10-18 14:59:11
204.   yankz
203 I would rather see the Mets win the WS than Joe on BBTN. He's way too classy.
2007-10-18 14:59:11
205.   Sarasota
200 poor Joe has got nothing to do with it. Respect does. He deserved an honest tender or an honest assessment that his services were no longer necessary. Truth is what he deserved. He did not receive that from the NY Yankees organization today. I am grateful that he left in such a dignified way.
2007-10-18 15:00:41
206.   tommyl
201 You know what, then that shows they have a lack of respect for the other players who have been brought in. What about Melky, Cano, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy? Are these guys not good enough because they don't have rings?

Bottom line is that the team made an honest effort to bring Joe back on what they thought were fair terms. Joe didn't like it so he left the deal on the table. I love Mo, but he really can't play for another manager (which he'll have to anyways most likely)? He doesn't respect and like Mattingly or Girardi?

2007-10-18 15:01:28
207.   williamnyy23
205 That's your opinion. Torre turned down a chance to be the highest paid manager in 2008. Apparently, other things were more important. I am glad he walked away too, so if the chance to earn $8mn makes him a martyr, then so be it. This decision was long over due anyway.
2007-10-18 15:02:09
208.   OldYanksFan
"It appeared to be an offer designed to be rejected. Scott Boras, the agent for Yankees star Alex Rodriguez, said players would have interpreted an acceptance by Torre as weakness."

"'It is difficult, near impossible, to accept a salary cut,' Boras said. 'Successful people can afford their principles. They understand if they accept the position, there is a great risk the message to all under him is dissatisfaction.'"

2007-10-18 15:03:42
209.   Max
194 What unadulterated BS. Cashman stuck his neck out LAST season; he weaseled away this season when it was clear it wasn't a politically expedient thing to do. It's absurd that you're trying to paint Torre in the worst possible light given the way this has all gone down (in a comical continuation of your jihad against Joe in the Banter comments), but to make Cashman a martyr when he has proven himself to be just as much the political animal as anyone else?

The offer was arguably fair, but it was also arguably not the best that could have been made to someone with Joe's track record. The guy declined it, life goes on. You got your wish -- we have a new manager. Why keep s***ting on him on his way out?

2007-10-18 15:04:00
210.   Vandelay Industries
201 What can the Yankees do about that? If folks here want to see the offer to Joe Torre as an insult, then for either Mo or Po to decline a deal would be an insult to the Yankees. No way in hell either of them would have gotten the money they did under their current deals elsewhere, particularly Posada, who at the time was very good, but again, no other team would have offered him the same deal. Eleven million per for a catcher, even a very good one, was way out of line. For that matter and by way of comparison, Albert Pujols was only offered fifteen million per during the same time period.

If they don't want to show the Yankees some allegiance, then good riddance.

2007-10-18 15:05:04
211.   williamnyy23
209 Did you take your violin out as you typed that?
2007-10-18 15:06:31
212.   Sarasota
207 It's obviously not about money. You concentrate on the money because it makes it easier for you to justify your hatred for him. It's about dignity. Do you think that the 2 or 3 million is of any value to Tore or to the Yankees when they have spent countless millions on less worthy projects?? His body of work deserved/commanded a fair offer, or an assessment that a change was necessary he did not receive one.
2007-10-18 15:07:20
213.   standuptriple
208 Wow. Boras is really whoring himself out to anybody with a pen a paper these days isn't he?
2007-10-18 15:07:27
214.   williamnyy23
208 Using that logic, the Yankees better be prepared to offer Derek Jeter another long-term deal at $19mn/year. Jeter has been very successful, after all, so why would he accept a pay cut when he becomes a free agent after 2010? Do all the Joe for martyr adovocates think the Yankees should take the same tact with all their aging employees?
2007-10-18 15:07:30
215.   tommyl
208 Source for those quotes?
2007-10-18 15:07:47
216.   Shaun P
190 I think its hilarious that the Indians have Beckett's ex singing the National Anthem tonight. HA!

In fact, I think this would be a great way to stick it to Pavano, should he ever pitch against the Yanks. Have Alyssa Milano sing the National Anthem! In the spirit of bringing joy here, I give you: (may be NSFW, depending on where you work)

203 I would watch BBTN again if Joe was on it. I would also pay money to see him flash his rings in Steve Phillips' face - frequently. Say, five times each half hour. "Well you know, Steve, when you've won the World Series 4 times like I have . . ."

2007-10-18 15:08:16
217.   Vandelay Industries
209 His track record as a .539 manager even with 12 seasons with the highest payroll in baseball?
2007-10-18 15:09:05
218.   Sarasota
208 and another reason why I repeat Torre left with his dignity in hand. Proud day for Joe Torre.
2007-10-18 15:09:56
219.   williamnyy23
212 What is so undignified about being offered the chance to manage the 2008 season? That's where your argument falls apart. All season, Joe has talked about how much he loved this team and that he would like to manage next season. Well, then why would he let this offer stand in the way? I am sorry, but this deal was more than fair.
2007-10-18 15:11:27
220.   williamnyy23
218 Hmm...the endorsement of Boras doesn't usually translate to dignity, so now I know you are reaching.
2007-10-18 15:11:31
221.   Max
211 No, just called you on your usual irrational, unmedicated rants -- every other comment about how Joe sucks. Can't wait to see how you bring down the threads around here next season.

I did present a counterargument, and you responded with an insult -- which pretty much says it all about you.

2007-10-18 15:12:08
222.   Sarasota
219 It's called being a lame duck. He did it in 2007 ( a no win situation) why should he do it in 2008? You have no argument other than your hatred of Torre.
2007-10-18 15:12:21
223.   yankz
216 "Alyssa Milano wants to get something off her chest."

Dear god, let it be her shirt!

You're a saint, Shaun P.

Also, I would have offered Joe one year at the same salary. It's pocket change to the Yankees, it's still just one year, and then people can't claim too much disrespect.

2007-10-18 15:13:17
224.   williamnyy23
221 Bach? or Mozart? What's playing in the background?
2007-10-18 15:13:45
225.   Vandelay Industries
223 Which is why I contend the deal was designed to fail from the get go.
2007-10-18 15:14:14
226.   tommyl
221 224 Guys, no need to resort to personal swipes at each other. Relax, we all love the Yankees here.
2007-10-18 15:14:36
227.   yankz
225 I still disagree, but whatever. It's done now.
2007-10-18 15:16:32
228.   williamnyy23
221 I don't hate Torre...I just think his days of being an effective manager have long passed. The lame duck argument has no credibility, unless you think the players would take advantage of that status. By all accounts, that is not likely to happen. The fact remains, Joe Torre could have managed the 2008 Yankees for $5mn with $3mn in incentives. If you think that's an insult, so be it. I disagree. I am just glad Torre agrees with you and not me, otherwise, the long needed transition would have been put off another season.
2007-10-18 15:16:42
229.   yankz
Alyssa re: Pavano-

"And, also, that just because you're 6-foot-5 and 260 pounds, it doesn't mean you're big all over."

(She later clarified that she was talking about his hands. Uh-huh.)

2007-10-18 15:16:56
230.   standuptriple
223 I agree. Make the shirt a $3.99 offer and it will be disrespected and leave.
2007-10-18 15:18:05
231.   williamnyy23
226 My posts weren't insults, but I don't mind Max' swipes.
2007-10-18 15:18:41
232.   standuptriple
230 I'll offer the bra $.01 too
2007-10-18 15:19:29
233.   yankz
232 Nice.
2007-10-18 15:21:57
234.   randym77
126 Hey, Bucky Dent is available. He was fired by the Reds when he made clear his displeasure at being passed over for Pete Mackanin when Jerry Narron was fired.
2007-10-18 15:22:45
235.   yankz
231 The violin thing was at the very least condescending. Not to mention ruined by Family Guy a few years back.
2007-10-18 15:23:36
236.   Vandelay Industries
230 There is a big difference between following the "fired" Joe Torre and following as a neccessary replacement for him. Big big difference, and an incentive to get Donnie to accept the gig.
2007-10-18 15:25:27
237.   Max
228 William, I appreciate the more measured response. I obviously disagree, and I'm trying to find where I said in this thread that the offer was an "insult". I think Joe had the right to turn down the offer, and that there's still too much that's not known about how this all went down. Without more information, I'm not about to paint him as the bad guy or the good guy -- all I know is he's gone.

Needless to say, we disagree on what kind of moral ground the various players in this drama stand on based on existing speculation, but ultimately I don't really care. Joe is gone, we can both agree its time for a new direction, and hopefully discuss the substance of those matters (resignings, a new manager, etc).

2007-10-18 15:25:31
238.   yankster
Is it implausible to anyone that Torre would accept a job next year with another club? Obviously the new salary would be more in line with the norm, like maybe in the top 90% like $2.5 million a year? And the offer will probably be for no more than two years given his age. Would that be an insult by the other team? Would they be insulting Torre? Or would we just yawn? And now Torre is offered a one year extension that is almost certainly worth $6 million, and that's insulting?

I'm flabbergasted at that logic. They didn't even have to fire him. They didn't even need to make an announcement. He's a free agent! They could just say thanks and go ahead and start interviewing. Instead, they offer him another year at a completely retarded pay level, completely above and beyond the market rate even for a genius, and it's an insult?

Some people are just looking for something to whine about. How did you feel about Bernie leaving?

2007-10-18 15:25:49
239.   williamnyy23
235 Perhaps, but condescension isn't the worst way to respond to personal insults. In fact, ad hominem rants beg for it.
2007-10-18 15:26:44
240.   Shaun P
226 Indeed. And we all dislike Carl Pavano!

230 Do you think that is a low enough offer? I'm not worried about the shirt's dignity, just that it refuses the offer and leaves.

223 Do you think if mention that she's a huge Dodgers fan some of the DT guys will appear? =)

2007-10-18 15:27:35
241.   yankz
238 Why would he manage the Dodgers (etc.) for 3 mil but not the Yankees for 5-8?
2007-10-18 15:28:22
242.   Shaun P
238 "Is it implausible to anyone that Torre would accept a job next year with another club?"

If by "job" you mean "as manager", right now, the other team with an opening is the Pirates, and I just don't see that happening.

2007-10-18 15:29:25
243.   cshaw006
The concept of incentive pay is hardly a foreign concept in any sector, including baseball. I'm actually quite surprised that there isn't a larger (or any) precedent for this with baseball managers. Executive officers in any business have a very high percentage of their total compensation in short and long-term incentive awards that are met upon the achievement of certain performance goals. If we look at the Yankees as a business, which I think at the end of the day is an appropriate perspective, you can think of the field manager as a sort of a COO. Rather than something like EBITDA, his performance based criteria is based on post-season success. Now you can debate whether or not that's an appropriate incentive, but I think reacting to it on an emotional level isn't what we should be doing. In a post-Moneyball world, there is still room for increasing efficiency in MLB and perhaps the biggest area for improvement is in business acumen. I see a performance pay model for management as a step in that direction and I'm glad it's my favorite team that is pushing the envelope.

Joe, I'll miss you, but go Yanks in 2008 and beyond.

2007-10-18 15:30:07
244.   OldYanksFan
215 Yahoo Baseball, RONALD BLUM, AP Baseball Writer
2007-10-18 15:31:11
245.   williamnyy23
238 Spot on...this is sports...when your performance level drops, your salary does too. I honestly don't see why offering a pay cut to a manager is a slap in the face, especially when the offer includes incentives that would actually increase the dollar amount of the deal.

Finally, it needs to be pointed out that Joe Torre will be 69. At most, a 2-year deal would make sense. In other words, the Yankees came up one guaranteed year short (and that second year would have vested at $8mn for making the World Series).

2007-10-18 15:35:16
246.   standuptriple
240 I will go low, The Price is Right-style. One Dollar, Bob!
2007-10-18 15:37:46
247.   OldYanksFan
An interviewer and Alyssa Milano says:
Like, say, Carl Pavano? Did you guys ever do it in the locker room?
Nope, but that relationship gave me baseball. I think from all my relationships I learn something about myself—and about humanity—and my Love of baseball was one thing that I learned there. And, also, that just because you're 6-foot-5 and 260 pounds, it doesn't mean you're big all over.
I meant his hands! [laughs] He's got very small hands.
HA! Good cover!
2007-10-18 15:38:13
248.   Shaun P
243 If Pete Abe is right, the Yanks may not exactly be pushing the envelope here:

"This is a team that makes it policy not to include incentive clauses in player contracts."

I haven't checked Cot's to see if this is true or not, but if so, wow.

OK, now I looked, and Matsui was given a performance bonus; Kyle was given a bonus (may earn additional $0.5M annually if he leads club in Rolaids relief points); Igawa got a performance bonus (# may earn $0.5M annually in performance bonuses * $0.125M each for 180, 190, 200 & 210 IP); Villone got performance bonuses in 05-06 ($1.1M in performance bonuses; $0.1M based on appearances; $1M bonus for making 30 start).

And I think that's it. A-Rod has bonuses, but obviously the Yanks didn't sign him to that deal.

2007-10-18 15:43:40
249.   theblastphemous
The offer was fair. As a dollar amount it was MORE than fair. Of course Torre has gotten tons of grief from within the Yankees organization (it being full of the envy, suspicion and ego that such powerful entities usually engender), but GOOD FREAKIN' GRIEF, he's been here for 12 years! In the modern era of American sports that is a lifetimes. And for The New York Yankees that is a couple of lifetimes. I would prefer Torre come back, but all this hand wringing and gnashing of teeth that's inevitably coming down the pipe from fans, media and players is causing me to call out Torre's lack of sanctity. I've heard people call him an institution. PLEEZE! Torre is not the New York Yankees! I'm actually glad now because finally we can put those championship teams to bed and move on. Paul O'Neill is not walking through that door! Tino Martinez is not walking through that door! Heck, Jeffrey Maier is not lurking over the outfield fence!
2007-10-18 15:46:06
250.   thurmtheman
As Yankee fans we are fortunate he did not accept this offer. Could you imagine next post season when the questions started to the players about if there was extra pressure to win so that Joe's option would be picked up? It is all BS, the offer was made knowing, or at least hoping it would be rejected. Time to move on.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-10-18 15:46:09
251.   Shaun P
247 OYF, I thought you'd appreciate that page.

249 Shoot, Maier is out of college now, he might be lurking over the outfield fence.

2007-10-18 15:51:53
252.   standuptriple
250 If another team picks him up, do we get a compensatory draft pick?
2007-10-18 15:55:26
253.   thurmtheman
252 Yes but they are required to use it on a no bat, reserve middle infielder and give him 250 ABs as a first baseman next season
2007-10-18 15:56:24
254.   williamnyy23
We kind of joked about it earlier, but the idea of Derek Jeter as a player manager is interesting. The best part is you'd save $7mn.
2007-10-18 15:56:53
255.   tommyl
253 Miguel Cairo has a son who is draft ready?
2007-10-18 15:59:40
256.   thurmtheman
255 yes he does, but he is a relief pitcher. You'll get to know him when he appears in 65 games before the all star break.
2007-10-18 16:00:51
257.   tommyl
256 Wait, seriously?
2007-10-18 16:02:58
258.   Dimelo
WOW!!!! I'm speechless, I'm a huge Torre fan. This is definitely sad, but looking forward this might be a good thing for both parties. I thought Torre was getting way too much (undeserving) criticism and this will cause people to turn to another scapegoat.

I wish Torre well, he has served the Yanks with class and he gave me so much joy that I will always hold him in extremely high regard.

He will probably be the best Yankee manager in my lifetime, and I have a long way to go before I pass. I hope!!!

When you look at all he has done in the past 12 years, then another manager from here on out will have a mountain to climb in order to achieve the same level of success.


2007-10-18 16:03:04
259.   thurmtheman
[257} Yeah, Billy Phillip "Guts" Cairo.
2007-10-18 16:16:52
260.   yankz
Guys, we have just lost someone far, far more valuable than Joe.

Wil Nieves is a free agent.

I wonder if Torre's declining will make him reluctant to re-sign here?

2007-10-18 16:17:10
261.   yankz
Also, I might be changing my stance on the "It wasn't a ploy" thing.
2007-10-18 16:20:08
262.   OldYanksFan
251 Yup...I'm old but i ain't dead.
Actually, I used to watch 'Who's the Boss', and I thought she was a knockout at 12. At 15, I was lusting after her. I much prefer brunnettes and darker complected women, and I knew when she matured she would be a drop dead georgeous woman. And her blog ain't half bad, considering she has a lot on her plate. She actually has made some astute baseball judgements.
2007-10-18 16:21:58
263.   SF Yanks
This blows. I was stunned when I read the news. At first, I couldn't come up with a good reason as to why Joe would turn it down. I figured he just didn't want to manage anymore, and still that's all I can come up with.

I didn't think they'd offer more than one year anyway. Well, there's only 4 pieces left from the dynasty (Mo, Po, Jete, Andy)....


Oh and BTW, I'd take Girardi over Mattingly.

2007-10-18 16:24:09
264.   yankz
I say we each pick a manager now so we can't complain next year.

Of course, I have no idea who I pick.

2007-10-18 16:26:33
265.   das411
So nobody thinks that Larry Bowa (or maybe even Tony Pena) will be the short-term, "fire as soon as things get rough and THEN turn over to Mattingly", manager?
2007-10-18 16:29:22
266.   51cq24
there are too many posts to read through everything, so i'm sorry that i'm repeating what others have undoubtedly said.

the idea that torre is a victim here is totally absurd. anyone who sees it that way should be ashamed of themselves. how crazy do things have to be when a person who is offered $5 million + gets sympathy for being low-balled? this is a guy who had tears in his eyes just thinking about not being here next year. considering all the blunders he's made, he was lucky to get this kind of offer.

when bernie williams had a $16 million or so option for 2006, the yankees turned it down and gave him a $1 million 1 year contract. when mussina had a huge option for this year they renegotiated with him. it's a little different because as players their physical abilities were fading. but is it that different than this situation? torre has, by the yankees' standards, underperformed in his last few years as manager. he has not taken the team deep into the postseason, and he has made highly questionable decisions in the process. he has worn down relievers, he has insulted star players, he has not done the best he could do. it is totally understandable that the yankees would want to rework his contract so that he would be making something more reasonable, something closer to the his actual market value. AND THEY STILL OFFERED HIM MORE MONEY THAN ANYONE HAS A RIGHT TO MAKE IN HIS LIFETIME.

i'm sorry, but this media spin is absurd. this is a fucked up world when people making the most money are insulted by slight pay cuts. i loved joe torre the person the whole time he was here. he was always classy, always respectable. but this is not classy whatsoever. this is pure greed. fuck joe torre, we'll go get someone who knows what he's doing during a game.

no one is owed millions of dollars. certainly not a baseball manager.

2007-10-18 16:31:37
267.   yankz
If Girardi wins the job, I bet Donnie B. is gone for a little bit. I just can't see him serving under Girardi.
2007-10-18 16:33:49
268.   Dimelo
266 I think I'm owed a million dollars, I slept at a Holiday Inn last night.
2007-10-18 16:36:11
269.   ms october
Again who know if this is true because it took ESPN almost 15 minutes to realize Torre declined the offer, but it at least might be an explanation for why Torre went to TB to turn down the offer, which is something I don't fully understand.

265 I would like to see Mattingly go to the minors before he becomes the manager. I would actually prefer Pena over Bowa if that is the only choice, but I don't want a fire as soon as things become rough manager.

2007-10-18 16:37:06
270.   51cq24
266 anyone who sees it that way should be ashamed of himself or herself, not themselves

i say girardi.

2007-10-18 16:37:52
271.   ms october
268 I hope you didn't hurt your neck Farnsworth style
2007-10-18 16:40:12
272.   Dimelo
266 I wonder what you'll think of this:
2007-10-18 16:42:03
273.   Dimelo
271 I'm built like steel.
2007-10-18 16:42:15
274.   51cq24
268 bigot!
2007-10-18 16:45:12
275.   51cq24
272 ugh. money is always relative? what the fuck does that mean? when you go to the grocery store, do they charge you more if you're rich? do homeless people ask you for $100 bills instead of change?
2007-10-18 16:48:18
276.   Eric
Verducci wrote a scathing commentary on this affair at
2007-10-18 16:52:23
277.   Dimelo
275 I don't think that was Pete's point. It wasn't about the 5 million, it was about the point being made by ownership.

You are up in arms because if you were offered 5 million dollars then you'd take that job, so it is relative. What is relative to you is different than for someone like Torre who has made that and more, it was about the message being sent from the organization's higher ups. He knew that would make him powerless in a clubhouse full of superstars - look at this poor sap, he took a cut in pay and is being forced to live up to incentives.

2007-10-18 16:56:28
278.   yankz
276 Dude, come on, it's Bronx Banter MO to post a tinyurl!

Here it is:

Good read.

2007-10-18 16:57:45
279.   williamnyy23
276 I am sure all of Torre's friends in the media will assemble with full force. Alot of what gets written will have to be taken with a grain of salt.
2007-10-18 16:58:05
280.   yankz
"And did Cashman, as he told reporters, really share a plane ride with Torre from New York and Tampa and, despite all the time and success they shared, not warn him of the ambush waiting for him at Legends Field with specifics of the contract?"

Wow, I hadn't even thought of that. I know they've gotten along well in the past. I sure as shit hope Cash warned him.

2007-10-18 16:58:55
281.   joejoejoe
For those who say a contract that gives has $8 million in possible compensation is a sign of disrespect I say call the wahmbulance. Torre is a good man and a good manager but let's not make him out to be Abner Doubleday and Mother Teresa all in one.

2007 MLB manager salaries
Clint Hurdle, COL $800,000 - in '07 World Series
Charlie Manuel, PHI $800,000 - '07 NL East champs
Willie Randolph, NYM $700,000 - '06 NL East champs
Jerry Narron, CIN $600,000
Grady Little, LAD $600,000 - '06 NL Wild Card, '03 AL Wild Card
Sammy Perlozzo, BAL $600,000
Ron Washington, TEX $600,000
Joe Maddon, TAM $550,000
John Gibbons, TOR $500,000
Manny Acta, WAS $500,000
Bob Geren, OAK $500,000

Total for 11 managers - $6.8 million dollars

'Disrespected' Joe Torre, NYY - $7.5 million dollars

2007-10-18 16:59:22
282.   yankz
If Cleveland wins tonight, baseball will have a different champion for the 8th straight year. Each of the six divisions will have been represented at least once.
2007-10-18 17:00:05
283.   OldYanksFan
"how crazy do things have to be when a person who is offered $5 million + gets sympathy for being low-balled"

"ugh. money is always relative? what the fuck does that mean?"

Well... I guess if it's NOT relative and 5+M is more then enough money, we should offer ARod 5.1M (the 0.1M being motivation incentive).

2007-10-18 17:00:48
284.   51cq24
277 no. first of all, don't talk for me because i'm not out looking for a $5 million contract or anything like that. what offends me is that his point is actually that rich people are ENTITLED to always be rich, and actually always get richer. that is what he's saying. the message sent here is "you haven't done what we've expected of you lately, so we're not gonna give you as ridiculous a contract as you've had. instead you'll only make $5 million." that is not an insult. it's reality. joe torre has not done what his employers expect of him. yet they are still willing to give him a ridiculous amount of money. he is not entitled to more just because they gave him more last time. he is not entitled to anything. and i don't know what you're talking about with the "powerless in a clubhouse full of superstars" language. he's the manager. managers almost never make anything close to the stars. you think the players would all of a sudden not respect him because he's only making a guaranteed $5 million?
2007-10-18 17:00:55
285.   Dimelo
279 So you think the media is spinning their propaganda machine here? I see it EXACTLY as it's being reported. They wanted Torre out, so this was the best way to save face.
2007-10-18 17:03:50
286.   Eric
278 sorry. What does MO mean? I'm at acronym finder and my choices are "method of operation" or "marching orders"
2007-10-18 17:03:57
287.   yankz
I have changed my mind on the "ploy" issue. I now think it was.
2007-10-18 17:04:18
288.   williamnyy23
Joel Sherman wrote the following BEFORE the news today.

2007-10-18 17:04:41
289.   yankz
2007-10-18 17:06:01
290.   51cq24
283 in fact, i think it's absurd that any player would opt out of a $25 million/year contract and want more. so what's your point? yes, money is relative in a way. a starving person in palestine would love a $5 million contract. but a rich person who has enough money to live luxuriously for the rest of his life is not entitled to any more money, and is greedy when he rejects such a lucrative offer as being disrespectful. and arod is as greedy as it gets.
2007-10-18 17:06:53
291.   RIYank
I don't get the issue. Of course it is an insult to be offered a pay cut. That's obviously true no matter how large or small the salary is.
If you're a 36 year old outfielder, then fine, that's a different story. You're being told that your powers are declining, and of course you should expect to be told that because it's true. So the Yankees told Joe Torre that his powers are declining, or something like that. And that's plainly an insult.
2007-10-18 17:08:37
292.   tommyl
287 Yeah, I think I agree with you now as well. I didn't realize that Joe decided to come down on his own and they didn't try to negotiate at all. I did want Joe out, I admit that, but in a dignified way.

Randy Levine seems even slimier now. Yuck.

2007-10-18 17:08:40
293.   51cq24
285 i'm sorry but if they wanted him out, why the fuck would they offer him so much money? if i were the front office, after the way torre was almost crying at the end of the postseason, i'd be shocked that he didn't accept such a generous offer to return, just as i'm shocked as a fan.
2007-10-18 17:10:41
294.   RIYank
293 Huh? It's a pay cut. Nobody is 'shocked' when their employee turns down a pay cut, are they? What are you talking about?
If A-Rod opts for free agency and Cashman offers him $21M/year to stay, will you be shocked that he declines???
2007-10-18 17:10:50
295.   williamnyy23
291 Is it an insult if it's true?

Pay cuts are not insults if your employer thinks you haven't met your performance goals. Maybe it's unfair to expect the manager to win a playoff series over the past three season? Perhaps...while it may be a lofty standard, I just don't get the "insult" part.

2007-10-18 17:12:51
296.   williamnyy23
294 The difference is someone else will pay Arod around $30 million. No other team would pay Torre $5mn...even at that figure, he would still be making 40% more than the next highest paid manager (Sweet Lou).
2007-10-18 17:13:39
297.   tommyl
294 I agree its a bit of an insult, but I also don't think that comparison is fair. A-Rod could likely command $30 on the open market. Considering the next highest paid manager is Lou at $3.5 I don't think anyone is going to offer Joe more than $5/per.
2007-10-18 17:13:52
298.   RIYank
295 It's not an insult if it's obviously true, I'd say.
You don't get that it's an insult, even though you seem to agree that the Yankees told Torre that he's getting worse as a manager? I guess I can't think of any other way to explain it.
2007-10-18 17:14:24
299.   yankz
How much blame does Torre get for the past 3 postseasons? Maybe a little of '06, but this year was entirely on the players IMO.
2007-10-18 17:15:03
300.   RIYank
Okay, good point about A-Rod's market value vs. Torre (william and tommyl), I agree that makes them disanalogous.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-10-18 17:15:21
301.   51cq24
291 why is it an insult when he clearly hasn't performed up to their standards? he has been making an absurd amount of money and has not been a great manager. so now he's entitled to make the same amount of money such that an offer that is still greater than any other manager's salary is such an insult that he can't possibly come back? come on. the guy was offered a huge amount of money for the job that he supposedly loves, the job that feared losing so much that he cried. i'm fine with the idea that he felt slighted by it. that is understandable. what isn't understandable is that he feels so slighted that he has no other option than to turn down an offer that guarantees him more money than almost every single person on earth will ever see in his or her life. that's crazy. i have no sympathy for him.
2007-10-18 17:16:12
302.   RIYank
299 IMO, he gets pretty close to zero blame for the post-season. My guess is that Cashman sees it that way, too, but not Stein.
2007-10-18 17:17:18
303.   williamnyy23
298 They aren't telling him he is "getting worse". They are telling him you haven't acheived as much as you have in the past. Torre's $7mn salary was a reward for winning playoff series (which sends money pouring into the team's coffers). Now, the team is saying, instead of being paid for what you did in the past, we will pay for what you accomplish in the present. What's so wrong about that? How can it be an insult if the team is willing to let Torre take the helm in 2008? Do you think the team is giving up on the season? Clearly, they want to win the World Series...and they choose Torre to lead them there.
2007-10-18 17:17:27
304.   51cq24
295 296 right. plus, arod has never cried over the possibility of losing his job here.
2007-10-18 17:18:04
305.   RIYank
Why do you keep saying 'entitled'? I don't think that has anything to do with it.

I don't agree that he has 'clearly' not performed up to their standards. I suppose if you thought you'd been performing up to standards and someone told you you hadn't, you would think that was an insult. In fact, that seems to me glaringly obvious.

2007-10-18 17:18:43
306.   51cq24
304 i meant 296 and 297 , but i also agree with 295
2007-10-18 17:19:06
307.   williamnyy23
299 I think you can hold not starting Wang at home against him. You can also blame him for not proactively managing the bug situation. Still, I don't think he was a main contributor to getting bounced early.
2007-10-18 17:19:39
308.   51cq24
305 are you telling me that it isn't clear to everyone, including joe, that the yankees want him to make it to the world series? whether or not you think that's reasonable, i think we all know that that is what they expect.
2007-10-18 17:19:44
309.   RIYank
303 Okay, that interpretation is not insulting, I agree. But it might be hard for Torre to interpret it that way.
2007-10-18 17:22:14
310.   yankz
I'd rather have Wang start twice, including once at home. Nobody could have predicted him pitching that badly.
2007-10-18 17:22:43
311.   51cq24
305 the question, for me, is not whether torre feels insulted or not. i think it's absurd that he does, but i do understand it. what's really crazy is that he would be so insulted by this pay cut that he would feel he can't take it out of principle. that means he feels that he is entitled to the extra money. and that is greedy.
2007-10-18 17:22:47
312.   RIYank
308 Hold on.
You said: Torre has clearly not performed up to the front office's expectations.
Now you say: it is clear that the Yankees want him to make it to the world series.
I agree that the second one is clear! But now it is just beyond me why you said the first one. You can't possibly think they are the same thing! You must be able to see the difference.
2007-10-18 17:23:10
313.   williamnyy23
309 I can understand Torre not wanting to return on these circumstances. Even though I think his best managing is behind him, I respect him enough to think his motivation wasn't purely monetary. Still, I can see why the Yankees wouldn't want to make a long-term commitment to him, not the least of which is because of his age. I don't think anyone is really a villain here. Unfortunately, the media is going to jump all over the Yankees because Torre is so beloved. Hey, no one is suggesting he isn't a great guy. Clearly, he has endeared himself to many and clouded their objectivity in the process.
2007-10-18 17:24:19
314.   RIYank
311 That is just absurd. If Torre were greedy, he would take the money. He is declining the money on principle or for some other reason that he hasn't revealed. That is the antithesis of greedy.
I'm understanding your position less the more you say.
2007-10-18 17:24:31
315.   yankz
312 Chillax, Dumbledore!
2007-10-18 17:25:02
316.   RIYank
313 Yeah, I guess I agree with you on all of those points.


2007-10-18 17:25:10
317.   williamnyy23
310 His career splits were dramatic...over a 1.5 run difference. Also, I would have preferred to have Pettitte pitch twice anyway. I don't think it's a huge issue because Wang was absolutely awful, but still, I think one could definitely predict he would have pitched better at home.
2007-10-18 17:25:39
318.   RIYank
315 Huh?
2007-10-18 17:26:32
319.   yankz
318 "You can't possibly think they are the same thing! You must be able to see the difference. "

sounds eerily like a line from the 6th Harry Potter.

2007-10-18 17:29:08
320.   williamnyy23
316 I have no idea...which, of course, is the other shoe in the process. I wanted the Yankees to replace Joe, but not if it winds up being with someone like Charlie Manuel, for example.

I don't think the Yankees should simply ordain a candidate. I think they need to do an extensive search and pick the man whose philosophy best matches the organization's.

2007-10-18 17:29:53
321.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh my God!

I'm way late to the party and have yet to read a single response, but oh my God.

I don't know quite what to say. This leaves me speechless.

Joe turned them down?


That must mean he's really done.


My heart wants him to stay and my head thinks it's time for him to move on.


2007-10-18 17:29:53
322.   RIYank
319 Dang. It does sound vaguely familiar, now that you mention it.
Does this mean I have to be killed now?
2007-10-18 17:30:27
323.   williamnyy23
Sabathia sucks.
2007-10-18 17:31:24
324.   51cq24
312 are you saying that the difference is that the front office only wants him to make the world series, but doesn't expect him to? i think they expect him to.

314 this is a decent point. technically he is rejecting a lot of money, so it isn't greedy. the greedy part is that he is saying that he deserves more money from the yankees than what they offered him. if he didn't think that, he wouldn't be so insulted.

2007-10-18 17:31:29
325.   RIYank
320 If I had my pick, I'd like Manny Acta. But presumably he isn't available.
2007-10-18 17:32:07
326.   yankz
322 Geez, thanks Mr. Spoiler.

Actually, if you're over 18 and haven't read the 6th HP by now, you probably never will.

2007-10-18 17:32:29
327.   weeping for brunnhilde
Btw, now that baseball season's over and I've officially turned my attention to my work, I won't be able to make it through 300+ comments. I may be able to skim them, but if someone could offer me a reader's digest summation, I'd be deeply obliged.

Is the basic point that this move is definitive and Joe's really truly gone, or is there some gamesmanship at work?

2007-10-18 17:33:05
328.   RIYank
Yeah, back to baseball-in-progress. Sabathia is just tired out from the season? He said not. But plainly something is off.
2007-10-18 17:34:21
329.   williamnyy23
327 I think most believe Joe is truly gone, but then again, who knows? I think the real debate is whether Joe was treated fairly or not.
2007-10-18 17:34:34
330.   tommyl
You know what bugs me about the Verducci piece? Where was he last year? Oh right, writing about A-Rod's struggles and piling on him. Where was the question of why Joe seemed to be unable to get the most out of A-Rod then? How about how little dignity A-Rod was treated with last year? I'm not saying Verducci isn't right about the Yanks treatment of Joe here (it was slimy) but lets not pretend Joe is the virgin Mary. He can be unfair sometimes too.
2007-10-18 17:34:54
331.   RIYank
327 Few think it's gamesmanship by Joe.
There's some dispute over whether the Front Office knew this offer would be rejected. And I think there is much dispute over the tone of the whole thing, which is hard to argue about in the usual rational way we BB denizens usually do. ;-)
2007-10-18 17:35:19
332.   yankz
327 Some believe that it was all a ploy for the Yankee brass to save face. Read Verducci's article in 278 .

But yeah, Joe's gone, no doubt about it.

2007-10-18 17:35:20
333.   51cq24
jeez he gets a strike call on a ball a foot outside and the announcers are silent.
2007-10-18 17:35:37
334.   yankz
331 Well, if I have to copy someone, I'm glad it's Dumbledore.
2007-10-18 17:35:47
335.   williamnyy23
328 250+ innings will do that to you. In retrospect, perhaps Cleveland should have given him a breathier down the stretch.

Beckett's stuff looks pretty good...on a related note, that 15-day DL stint may have been a blessing in disguise if it helped keep him fresh in the post season.

2007-10-18 17:36:11
336.   tommyl
327 I hear you, fortunately (or unfortunately) I was stuck on some annoyingly subtle point concerning spacetime geometry all day so I had some time to check in here. Sigh.
2007-10-18 17:36:40
337.   williamnyy23
330 Thank you, Gary Sheffield ;)
2007-10-18 17:38:16
338.   Bob B
Watching reruns of The Bronx is Burning. Let's face it, this is nothing compared to King George in his youth and glory. Personally, I was 50-50 on Joe going or staying. I mean 12 straight years in the playoffs is remarkable but since 2001 they've lost to lesser teams that were underdogs every year (even this season-Cleveland had the better record but the Yanks were favored). He was never as good after Zim left. So who's it gonna be? Just don't give us Mattingly...........we endured enough second place finishes with him at first base (Sorry for the blasphemy you Mattingly lovers out there).
2007-10-18 17:39:05
339.   yankz
338 Who favored the Yankees? Steve Phillips? Maybe John Kruk?
2007-10-18 17:39:54
340.   williamnyy23
338 I love Mattingly more than is healthy, but I agree. I am just superstitious enough to think he is cursed!
2007-10-18 17:42:04
341.   yankz
One of the fine gents over on Pete's blog:

"only a 2-hitter by Beckett so far
Is there a greater postseason pitcher than Beckett."

I'm going to have to go with Mariano Rivera, for one.

2007-10-18 17:43:08
342.   ms october
339 Favored by Vegas, but analysts were something like 9-3 picking for Cleveland (don't remember who the ones who picked the Yanks)
2007-10-18 17:43:49
343.   yankz
I knew nothing about this Hillman fellow, so I looked him up:

One quote: "On September 8, 2007, he announced that he would resign at the end of the season in order to spend more time with his family."

I wonder if his family would be down with him entering the zoo.

2007-10-18 17:45:23
344.   RIYank
342 Hm, that's a very good sign for the Sox, huh?

334 Yankz, there is so much I would like to tell you, but I cannot.

2007-10-18 17:49:24
345.   51cq24
not close
2007-10-18 17:50:21
346.   Bob B
339 The betting line was always on the Yankees which just goes to show that even the bookies don't know pitching wins in October... except when it doesn't.
2007-10-18 17:53:06
347.   tommyl
337 Wow, now that was an insult :)
2007-10-18 17:56:53
348.   SF Yanks
I have a hypothetical. If Torre, Arod, Jete, Andy, Po, and Mo all signed with the Blue Jays, would anyone be a Jays fan? I know this sounds ridiculous, but I feel so attached to these guys that its almost as if I'm rooting for them now and not the Yanks. I know that sounds absurd, and in reality I will die a Yankee fan, but on some level the players take a portion of the rooting and not the organization.

I realize it's only Joe (hopefully only him) leaving, but if I see him in a another uni, I just may wish well for his team. Depending on where he goes of course.

2007-10-18 17:58:09
349.   RIYank
I'd certainly like the Jays under those circumstances. But I'd still be a Yankee fan.

It's all about the laundry. Ask Vandelay Industries, he'll explain it.

2007-10-18 18:00:51
350.   yankz
349 Ditto. And I'd make another HP comment, but this thread has gotten nerdy enough.

It's been a dozen years. Even for a 60-year old, that's 20% of his life. It deserves a happy ending.

I rooted for Andy when he was an Astro. I'd root for Jeter or Mo if they sign with the Sox. But I draw the line after them.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-10-18 18:05:57
351.   JL25and3
307 Sorry, but I think starting Wang in game 1 was clearly the right choice.
2007-10-18 18:06:06
352.   Bob B
So moving on, who's next? Billy Martin is dead, Mattingly too green. LaRussa couldn't stand the glare. I personally like Girardi-old enough to have played with Mo, Jete and Andy and proven with young talent when he coached the Marlins. And smart enough to turn down the Cubbies.
2007-10-18 18:08:06
353.   SF Yanks
349 350 But how far does the attachment go? If the Steinies royally screw up the Yanks by getting rid of all the good guys (Jete Mo) and sign the Sox, are you still a Yanks fan?

Ahhhhh... no need to answer. I'm getting carried away, but sometimes I wonder where the line is drawn when rooting for a team.

2007-10-18 18:08:44
354.   51cq24
i still don't really know what 312 meant. the way you emphasized what you emphasized makes me think you weren't just questioning the "want" language.
2007-10-18 18:10:18
355.   RIYank
353 Hm, how old are you?
Stein did screw up the Yanks. It was awful, it was embarrassing, and so on, but, yeah, I was still a fan. All about the laundry, bro.
2007-10-18 18:12:22
356.   yankz
If the Yankees don't make the playoffs next year, maybe people will stop taking it for granted. I can't even imagine how difficult it would be to do it 12 straight years.
2007-10-18 18:13:05
357.   RIYank
354 Oh.

Look, I wanted Shelley Duncan to win the WS this year. Didn't you?

Shelley didn't win the WS. So, are we to conclude, then, that Shelley didn't perform up to expectations?

2007-10-18 18:17:20
358.   51cq24
357 instead of giving another example, can you explain what you mean? are you saying that it's not fair to hold torre accountable for the yankees as a team not making the world series? that it would be the same thing as blaming shelley duncan? if so, doesn't that mean that torre is just as expendable as shelley duncan?
2007-10-18 18:19:01
359.   51cq24
if the yankees' expectations are for joe torre to lead the team to the world series, and he fails to do that, then he has not met their expectations. the question of whether or not he can be held responsible is a separate issue, especially since here it is an interpretation that the yankee front office is making.
2007-10-18 18:20:39
360.   RIYank
I don't know whether it's fair. I'm just pointing out that it's obviously not the same thing to say that they want him to win the WS (or even that they expect him to) and to say that he underperforms if they don't.

As a matter of fact, I think it's nuts to hold a manager responsible for winning a WS.

The point of the example wasn't that Shelley is expendable! My point works just as well if you substitute A-Rod for Shelley. Didn't you want him to win the WS? And he didn't. So, he underperformed... uh, no. Obvious non sequitur. Okay, so, he's expendable? Uh, no. Obvious non sequitur.

2007-10-18 18:21:22
361.   SF Yanks
355 Yeah I hear ya. I'm 25 so all I really know is Torre and the gang. :( Me sad.
2007-10-18 18:25:34
362.   RIYank
Man, Sabathia is all over the place. Some good Ks, but an awful lot of hard hit balls and walks.
2007-10-18 18:27:18
363.   51cq24
360 that only works if you believe that the manager has the same or similar role as an individual player. if the yankees' front office believes that torre is responsible for how the team as a whole performs, then he has not met their expectations of making the world series every year. if he is just one small piece of the team, then he is not any more responsible for their losses or their victories than any player.

how are they saying that this replay is not conclusive? it clearly hits off the corner of the wall and bounces back onto the field.

2007-10-18 18:30:42
364.   RIYank
363 I don't get it. He doesn't have the same or similar role to a player. But he obviously cannot be responsible for how the team as a whole performs. How on earth could he be? That's impossible.
I doubt he's any more responsible for wins and losses than the average player -- at least insofar as I can see how to compare. A great manager, I believe, might add four wins per year. A horrible one might lose four. A great player adds more than four wins per year over replacement player.

I'm not enjoying this game (the actual baseball one, not the bantering!) at all. I'm going off to do something else now.


2007-10-18 18:30:55
365.   weeping for brunnhilde
329 331 332

Cheers, friends! :)

Btw, is Boston fighting for their season right now?

(I'm buried in the middle ages these days.)

2007-10-18 18:37:19
366.   yankz
I would bet the incentives were the straw. They certainly seem to imply that the Yankees think Joe needs some extra motivation to win.
2007-10-18 18:49:47
367.   51cq24
364 i don't disagree with you. but if the yankees think he's responsible, then they think he has failed to live up to their expectations. they define their own expectations. i don't think it's reasonable to expect the yankees to make the world series every year. i also don't think it's reasonable to hold joe torre completely responsible. but that doesn't change what the yankees' expectations are.

anyway, maybe their expectations instead are that he makes consistently intelligent in-game decisions. if those are their expectations, he has failed to meet them.

2007-10-18 19:00:34
368.   OldYanksFan
Lohud: Meanwhile just spoke to somebody I know who is tight with Mariano Rivera. He said that Mo is more determined than ever to test the market after the developments of today.

Mo's comment: "The Yankees are one of 30 teams now."

Personally, I think a small crack has developed in the dike.

2007-10-18 19:03:55
369.   Sarasota
Tom Verducci gets it right.....

2007-10-18 19:05:17
370.   OldYanksFan
2007-10-18 19:12:42
371.   51cq24
let me clarify what i mean about entitlement. the contract offered to joe torre is an insult if the baseline is his previous contract. if he uses that as the baseline, it is somewhat reasonable, but it does mean that he feels he is entitled to it. it is equally reasonable to put the baseline at 0, as in what he would make without a contract, or at whatever the average salary of a major league manager is, or at whatever the 2nd highest salary is if you like. if any of those are your baseline, then an offer of $5 million with up to $3 million in incentives is not insulting. remember how much money we are talking about here. the yankees did not have to offer him anything. if they didn't want him here anymore, they wouldn't have offered him anything- certainly not more than any other manager makes and more than what he makes if the incentives are included.

is he insulted by the incentives? maybe. but is it unfair to put incentives on making the postseason? why? they want him to lead the yankees to the world series. if he does that, he will make a ton of extra money.

again, he can only be insulted by this offer if he feels that he is entitled to what he had been making. otherwise he would take it as a wonderful offer, considering the team that he leads has failed to perform in the way the front office expects, and that he is still being offered considerably more than any other manager in the game.

368 mariano is my favorite player. but if he really means this, he is completely wrong.

2007-10-18 19:18:55
372.   weeping for brunnhilde
368 I'm feeling ill.

If Mo goes, Jorgie might follow. If Jorgie goes...

Oh, God.

I can't believe it's come to this.

Oh please, God, let's not go out like that.

The organization should kiss Joe's ass, plead on bended kneee for him to stay.

I don't like where this is going...

2007-10-18 19:21:18
373.   weeping for brunnhilde
You know, I hope Mo's just trying to drive a hard bargain because if he really means that, I'll be really hurt.

I'm not saying he's duty-bound to stay on behalf of us fans, but for Christ's sake, a little recognition would be nice.

One of thirty teams, indeed.

2007-10-18 19:24:05
374.   51cq24
372 why should it plead him to stay? it just offered him $5 million guaranteed to stay.

let's say you're the president of a car company. as such, you make $700 million a year. over twice as much as the next-highest-paid car company president. you love your car company and all the people under you. but over the last 7 years other car companies have outperformed yours. you think you've done everything possible to dominate the car market. your contract is up, and your bosses tell you that they want you to stay, but they offer you a $500 million contract with $300 million in incentives if you lead the company to the top of the car industry. this salary is still considerably higher than the salary of any other car company president. is that unreasonable? is it so unreasonable that you would not take the offer out of principle?

2007-10-18 19:25:48
375.   51cq24
374 i should have written "and they offer you..." not "but they offer you"
2007-10-18 19:35:51
376.   OldYanksFan
Can anyone remember anytime in Yankee history when we had so many franchise players possibly leaving? Even if Torre was a serial killer, considering Mo, Po, ARod and Andy, the ASG in Yankee Stadium, and the last year of the stadium, could there possibly have been a worse time for this to happen? They couldn't pay Torre $7m for one year, and actually have a plan in place for our 2009 manager?

If Torre ushered Yankee Stadium out, and we had Mo, Po, Arod and Andy locked up, would it have been that big a deal to let him go after this year?

I am sick to my stomach. This reminds me of the past 'dark years', when petty bickering and petty minds in the FO made decisions that threw the franchise under the bus.

While Willy, Mat and 51cq24 celebrate, I simply wonder if the Yankees, as we know them, will survive.

If the next manager is the 2nd coming, we go from PS losers to PS winners. That's the best that can happen. Wanna have a thread on the worst that can happen?

This is a sad day for NY.

2007-10-18 19:42:32
377.   nemecizer
370 OldYanksFan, stop posting stuff I can't have, it's not fair!

372 373 I don't think Mo or Posada will go, I think it will just be more expensive to keep them. And I think that the FO was quite surprised by Torre's reaction and will make an effort to make it clear that there isn't a route coming (I hope).

But if they do leave, and A-Rod and Pettitte as well, where does that leave us? It's not good, but it's not the end of the world. It probably means a 3rd place team next year, but who knows after that? It could give us the chance to get kids in there, something that we have had good success with over the past 3 years.

The only thing that would make me truly freak out is if Mo/Po/A-Rod/Pettitte leave and the FO freaks out and trades prospects for washed up free agents. Then we are in the wilderness for 5+ years, and that I refuse to think about.

Come to think of it, OYF, please go find more pictures like in 370 , I need to take my mind off what i just wrote.

2007-10-18 19:45:44
378.   OldYanksFan
From Bronx Block, from a Blogger who wanted Torre gone.

"There just isn't a way to spin this where the Yankees look anything but awful. There is no way you make Torre this offer and expect him to take it. And if he does, he is coming back like a beaten dog, so his leadership is undermined. Just horrendous.

The Yankees have a long history of callousness and disrespect for their players. After the 1957 season, Mickey Mantle actually had a better year than 1956 but he didn't win the Triple Crown, so the Yankees tried to cut his pay. They unceremoniously dismissed Casey Stengel to start the team's downward spiral in 1960. Yogi Berra wouldn't set foot in Yankee Stadium for years after ill treatment by Steinbrenner. They fired Bucky Dent in Boston. And so on…

But this one ranks with any of them.

Joe Torre did exactly what he should have done with this offer, he told the Yankees to stick it where the sun don't shine. Joe Torre is the picture of dignity and class, as he has always been.

The Yankees look like idiots, but of even deeper concern is that, in recent years, they haven't been doing business in this way. If this is the way the Steinbrenner Bobsie Twins are going to run this business, we have rough times ahead. The Yankees had once become a team where players didn't want to play. Now, everyone wants to play for the Yankees. If we're going back to the days of handling the organization in this way, we'll find that a lot fewer players want to come here."

2007-10-18 19:49:13
379.   OldYanksFan
"..not good, but it's not the end of the world."
Thank you Manny Nemecizer
2007-10-18 19:57:20
380.   weeping for brunnhilde
374 Your model appears logically sound, but I'm not sure the analogy is.

Is the success of a baseball team comparable to that of a widget company?

I'd need to be convinced...

2007-10-18 19:59:01
381.   weeping for brunnhilde
376 Precisely so.


2007-10-18 19:59:49
382.   nemecizer
379 Wow. What a kick in the balls. I don't think I deserved that.
2007-10-18 20:01:26
383.   weeping for brunnhilde
377 Of course, all things must pass, and perhaps in the long run this is for the best, but still, I think the transition could be a bit smoother, less traumatic, is all I'm saying.

I don't like the blow-it-all-up approach. As a fan, I find the prospect traumatic.

2007-10-19 04:23:38
384.   OldYanksFan
Pete has more:
Just received an e-mail back from Randy Hendricks. I had contacted him to try and get a reaction from Andy Pettitte to the departure of Joe Torre. Here is what the message said:

"We won't talk until November. Andy may or may not play next year. Joe was and is a special person to Andy."

2007-10-19 04:32:12
385.   OldYanksFan
Again from Pete:
Hal Steinbrenner was given Steve Swindal's old job last month. But he doesn't seem to have any more power than his brother Hank. Until this year, neither man had an active role with the team. One breeds horses, the other runs hotels.

Joe Torre got run out of pinstripes by two guys who couldn't pick Phil Hughes out of a lineup. One of their vice presidents is Felix Lopez, a landscaper who had the good fortune to marry Steinbrenner's daughter.

Meanwhile Randy Levine grabbed every second of airtime he could on the conference call today. This is the same guy who gathered the writers during spring training and tried to get us to do a story on all his accomplishments. Nobody was interested.

The power over baseball operations Brian Cashman gained had started to slip away. Hank Steinbrenner "insists" that Joba Chamberlain be a starter. Thanks for the input, Branch Rickey. Can't wait to see what he insists happens next.

I feel sicker every hour that passes.
This whole affair reeks with bad Karma.

2007-10-19 05:29:14
386.   OldYanksFan
A pretty balanced article:
2007-10-19 06:28:30
387.   OldYanksFan
There are a number of videos here, that play consecutively.
I'm kinda surprised, but I thought Steve Phillips has a very balanced and accurate assessment of the situation.

Sorry for the long post to follow, but I believe this is the biggest event/upheaval for the Yankees in decades.

I don't know if it's standard 'hatred' or these guys really don't get it, but 51cq24, William and everyone else who thinks the $5m was a good offer, should check these videos out, and see what some fairly knowledgable others (most of whom get paid way less then $5m) have to say.

Mo and Po are absolutely coming back if Joe stays. Since Andy said he was feeling very good (physically) I think he would have come back for another shot at a WS. I think ARod now likes and respects Torre, but that alone won't effect his decision that much, aside from the aspect of the organization's 'dysfunctional' behavior.

I do believe the Red Sox want him badly (as a SS no less) and would be happy to overpay him to have him. Not only as a great player, but the ultimate slap in the Yankee's face (which it would certainly be). I wonder if Theo might dial a wrong number (oh gee, how did that happen) and 'accidentally' speak to Boras within that 10 day window.

At the end of this year, I though we had a VERY strong team coming into 2008. It was basically the same leam that lead MLB in wins the second half, with a more seasoned and usable Hughes, Joba and IPK, as well as a winter to tweak the BP and 1st base. While are 1-2 would still not be considered elite, our 1-4 (Wang, Andy, Philip, Joba) looks to be one of the best in baseball.

Now I fear that 2008 and beyond may be in jeopardy. I don't know who will be the first one the Yanks negotiate with (ARod, Mo or Po), but I think it absolutely CRUCIAL that the first is signed. I think the Yanks go FAST for Po with something like $45m/3. Mo will need a LOT of 'respect' for a fast signing, in the area of $42m/3.

But if they negotiate with the 1st and DON'T sign him, it could start a chain reaction.

As much as I respect and even like (a little bit) Big George for his emotional and financial committment to winning, and the fact that I know he has done many charity acts over the years, I simply can't forgive many of the atrocious things he did pre-Torre.

While I am/was a BIG Torre supporter, I am a Yankees fan first. I loved Joe simply because even with all his BP and lineup mistakes, that he is/was far and away the best man for this team and this city.

Even without Torre, I simply want this team back, with a great opportunity to get a ring. If this 'affair' ends up deconstructing this team, it will be a horrid flashback to those terrible years of the 70's thru 1995.

There are some here who wanted Torre out because he 'only' brought up to the PS 7 times in the last 7 years, but no rings to show for it. They wanted Torre gone so we COULD WIN the WS. Yet now, in light of possible unwanted changes (no Mo, Po, Andy and/or ARod), all of a sudden they are Mannyish in a 'so what, it ain't so bad' kind of way.

So I ask: Is there ANYONE here who thinks if we lose any combination or Mo, Po, Andy and/or ARod, that we will do better in 2008 then in 2007? That losing either of 2 LIFETIME YANKEE GREATS is just par for the doin' business course?

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