Considering the discussion yesterday about sports and religion, I thought several here might be interested in the following link (a Q&A with Paul Byrd on the topic), which I happened to stumble across today. It's offered without commentary, however, and I am sure most here would like to keep it that way.

http://tinyurl.com/3y9qaw

I find the argument that the Yankees should just make a decision and not let Torre twist in the wind to be silly at best. Joe Torre is no longer under contract. He is essentially a free agent. The decision about whether to offer him a new contract will have significant implications for the team's near-term plans. That is precisely why the Yankees should take their time on this issue. If there is an uncertainty regarding the issue, I see nothing wrong with holding extensive, organization-wide meetings. Whether you think he should be back or not, such a process seems prudent. I am not sure why so many are trying to turn Torre into a martyr.

1 "*Byrd:*I've had a real struggle with pornography, from before I became a Christian, when pornography was the good old American way. After I became a Christian, it really began to bother me, but God didn't really take it away.

I don't know what's funnier: calling porn the "good old American way," or blaming God because he couldn't stop looking at it.

2 Mr. Torre is still under contract with the NY Yankees and will be till the end of the month. He is not a free agent and the treatment he is receiving at the hands of the Yankee Brass is not exactly bathing the organization in glory. This has not been well handled given his historic standing with the club; I thought we were supposed to be better than the other guys anyway.

I really don't care how this is 'usually' handled elsewhere. I care that the Yankees aren't returning the same class, dignity and competence to Mr. Torre that he has accorded them since he came to the the job in 1996.

3 So much for refraining from commentary?

2 Exactly, there's nothing preventing Torre from going out and looking for other offers. If his supporters are so distraught that the Yankees haven't immediately offered a renewal then they shouldn't have a problem with him checking out new clubs.

"I am not sure why so many are trying to turn Torre into a martyr."

Because that's the narrative, along with the Joba rules are silly, A-Rod is a choke-artist, Derek Jeter is clutchy-McClutchy, and the new one coming is that the Yankees are disorganized mess in the wake of the boss having mostly given up the reins.

4 I said essentially, which I thought was pretty clear. What exactly is so bad about how the Yankees are conducting their business? Should they just flip a coin so Joe can a quick decision? Or, should they just cut him loose to save him the agony, even though they might have decided to bring him back if they had more time to discuss their options?

Once again, what is so wrong with taking 1-2 weeks to make a very significant decision?

I have a slightly different take on this. 4 Notes correctly that Torre is still under contract with the team. As such, the team is not really letting him twist in the wind, are they? Why should they be compelled to make whatever decisions they do as fast as possible? Why should these few extra days make one jot of difference? Hell, the baseball season isn't even over yet.

The only way the Yankees are handling this badly, IMO, is in terms of PR (Goerge opening his big mouth and the subsequent failure to do adequate damage control), not in terms of how Torre is being "treated."

7 Oh my God, William--we just agreed twice on contentious issues within two days!!

Damn you for typing faster!!

6 Exactly...it's a ready made theme, which seems to be the way the media does business these days. Personally, I am very happy to see the Yankees are taking their off season plan very seriously (even if Pete Abe thinks it's commical), and not just making decisions based on popularity and convenience. It seems to me as if the Yankees organization is very vibrant right now, with very careful consideration being given to the team's future. I wonder what the braintrust of teams like the Pirates, Devil Rays and Reds are doing now (well, we know what the latter is doing...I am sure their fans wish the team would have been more deliberate in hiring a new manager).

9 How does it feel to be on the right side of things for a change? :) / joke alert

11 It's like I've been born again. --duck--

7 "Joe Torre is no longer under contract". I'm sorry, I must have misinterpreted that somehow.

The natural inference drawn from you're post was that the Yankees have no manager at this point because Mr. Torre's contract has expired and therefore they are merely taking steps to fill that vacancy. Given however that he is still under contract this public display of apparent ambivalence looks like incompetence and ingratitude. Mr. Torre deserves better.

1 Real nice, put a link up and tell people not to comment. However, your point is still made - albeit implicitly.

3 Thanks for commenting and pointing out the lunacy in that line of thinking.

As for Torre, I don't think he's a sap or noble for waiting out to see if he'll still be able to manage the Yanks, his dream job. I love Torre and I would act the same way, why rock the boat if he (still) REALLY wants to keep managing? What are his options if he doesn't manage the Yanks:
1. Get into broadcasting - swap places with Girardi.
2. Manage another team
3. Sit at home and read the comments at the Banter.

None of those options are better than managing the Yanks.

They've had 12 years to make this decision. If they need to start thinking about it now, either (1) they haven't been thinking ahead, (2) this ownership transition actually just happened and they have a lot to think about besides just Joe Torre, or (3) they're basing their decision primarily on the results of four games in October. Only #2 is excusable; otherwise, they should have known what they were going to do in July or August.

13 In that case, Torre is still the manager until his contract expires at the end of the season. So then, what's the problem? What should the Yankees do...hold a parade in his honor? You have yet to explain why it is bad for the Yankees to be deliberate in deciding who manages the team in 2008. Saying good old Joe deserves better doesn't hold much weight, in my opinion. I am much more concerned about the fate of the team than the feelings of one man. The entire organization and its fans deserve for management to take its time in making an informed decision; that should be the only goal.

7 and 8 are right on. The Yankees, whether you like it or not, are a big business and the decision on who is the manager of the team is one of the many important decisions that ownership has to make. I'd prefer that they not rush the choice. Although at times I thought Torre did a poor job overall he's been pretty good for 12 seasons. I'd like to see him back but I have read many arguments from people on the toaster pointing out his deficiencies. This isn't about Joe Torre, it's about the direction the team will go over the next few years. If it were me down in Tampa I'd not want to rush to judgment.

I'm not sure that a public show of support from Don Zimmer is exactly what Joe needs right now.

14 What point was that? Whether you think Byrd is insightful or a moron, I thought everyone here was mature enough to let Byrd's perspective speak for itself, especially as the interview dealt with so many issues that we discussed yesterday. I guess that was an incorrect assumption.

15 They haven't had 12 years to make this decision. That's silly. Do you really think Torre's future employment should not at least in part be decided by recent events. Whether you focus on recent post season mishaps or the changing direction of the team (younger pitching/fewer vets), there is every reason to re-evaluate Torre. Suggesting that the team should implicitly know what it should do because Torre has been around for 12 years make no sense, and that's before even considering the availability of alternative candidates (i.e., if a better candidate isn't available, then maybe keeping Joe becomes a better option).

7 8 Couldn't have said it better myself. This is in fact a business. Whether or not to re-sign the highest paid manager in baseball, and at what amount is worthy of discussion prior to putting an offer (or not) on the table.

15 Even if you had essentially made the decision six months ago, why wouldn't you review it right before it becomes final to make sure nothing has changed? Forsaking the opportunity to review the decision would be stupid.

[everyone talking about big business]

If the Yankees were truly thinking like a big business, their decision would have been made already, not based on recent events or clouded by sentimentality. If they were being a little subjective and wanted the decision to be made on Joe's record in this post-season, well that's over so the decision should have been made by the last game of the ALDS. They have had 12 years, or if you take a short-term approach, one season, to decide if they were going to move on. I thought their move with Bernie, while being a bit harsh, was more big business-like. Dear Bernie, you're not invited to spring training. That's as clear as it gets. For Joe, they should have told him before the ALDS was over - either he's back or not and let the man close the season with some dignity if he's out of the picture next year.

22 Are you suggesting that big business doesn't react to recent/current market issues in making its decisions? All you need to do is read the business news everyday to see that assumption is incorrect. The Yankees are doing what any business would do...assessing their options in organizational meetings.

0 Either he's noble or a sap. Which one of these?

Guys who come from where Torre comes from figure there's nothing more noble than surviving, whatever it takes.

No matter what, Joe comes out of this a winner, so let the Yanks braintrust take their sweet time and do whatever they're gonna do.

The coverage of the intriguing deliberations in Tampa has gone beyond "Frontline" treatment, and is approaching Oliver Stone silliness, yet I'm enjoying it to an extent.

I don't know about noble, but he's no sap. He's smart, why comment, why turn it into more of a circus? Joe doesn't need their money and he doesn't need the drama. I suspect the reason Joe has been so successful in New York is in part because his ego doesn't need stroking. He's self contained. He's good to go. Tell him when to show up, or tell him not to show up and he'll start writing a book, or going on the lecture circuit, or whatever. Joe don't need the Yankees.

I would have to agree with Ken. If they were ready to move on, they probably could/should have done it already. It might be a big decision, but its not THAT big. If some are advocating that he should return, he probably should. TO me, questions like if Joba will be the starter etc will have far more impact on wins and losses next year than if Torre or Girardi or Mattingly manages this team.

The only argument to add to that would be if they are discussing whether Torre should come back so they can have a better chance at resigning everyone, but that shouldn't even be discussed...

22 I disagree. Big Businesses make stupid, non fact based decisions all the time. They also procrastinate like a motherfucker, prefering to hope that everything is better in the morning, rather than make a tough decision. Most big businesses aren't run very well. Even many successful ones are successful due to market inertia or lucky positioning more than anything else.

As a business consultant I see it everyday.

0 I can understand Pete Abe's sentiment since he's in the business of reporting information about the Yankees, but look at it from the opposite perspective:

The Yankees are a privately-held organization and are under no obligation to share anything with anybody. The Steinbrenners can do anything they want with their team, and can take as long as they want in doing it.

As much as I hate that Torre's fate is still up in the air, I hate the media more. They're just going to have to wait.

That said, anyone else having fun with the Pedroia pics today?

The original photo:

http://tinyurl.com/23tgfg

The nomaas .gif:

http://tinyurl.com/293rfp

My own version:

http://tinyurl.com/yns3wq

15 Ken, I agree with you, but I offer you an option (4):

(4) When the Boss opened his big mouth, he changed the situation from the decision was already made (bring Torre back) into an opening for the Torre-hating contingent to try to make their case to the "Junior Bosses".

Its politics. Steve Swindal was firmly with Cashman. If he wasn't a %)$#in' moron, Torre's new two year contract would have been announced already. I think H&H are on-board with Cashman, but they are new to this, and why not take time? Their dad's legendary impatience was certainly one of his tragic flaws.

I don't think Torre is being treated poorly, but only because he knows how this game is played. Still, I'd like for the damn thing to be over with already.

There's no reason for the Yankee front office to make a decision one second before they want to. If he doesn't want to be "twisting in the wind", he can walk away anytime.

28 thanks for the purse pic. i was really hoping that would happen. i knew somebody here would hook me up. fantastic job.

28 I wanted to comment on that too...when I saw the play live, I thought Pedroia swiped at the ball, but absent a replay, it slipped my mind. After seeing the images, I think Pedroia's swipe was pretty obvious. I wonder if anyone is going to take him to task for defiling the game in such a manner?

1 I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed that interview. I watched Byrd interviewed after the game last night and I was impressed by the way in which he was both thoughtful and humble. It wasn't the "I'm just here to help the team" false humility that a lot of players put out there, but rather a quiet pride in his accomplishments and an understanding that he couldn't have done it alone. I'm a serious anti-clerical type, and I felt like Byrd did a really great job of conveying his faith, without regard to institution or dogma. To be totally cliche, at a time when religion seems to be more about policy than practice, I wish there were a few more Byrds out there. I'm definitely going to buy his book. Thanks for sharing the interview.

20 I'm a total sentimentalist on this point. I think Torre should have the opportunity to manage the last year in the House, close out an era, and then turn over the reins to a new guy in '09. I will admit that my dreams of a hundred years of Yankees dominance (27 in '07, 28 in '08, etc) did die this season, I haven't given up on the idea of Mo'Joe. I think we also tend to get bent out of shape because we haven't won a WS in a while and ignore Joe's very real accomplishments. If we're realistic, making the postseason 12 years running AND losing to the eventual WS team in the past two years isn't really that big a stain on our record.

Er, assuming the Tribe makes the WS this year, that is. They've definitely outplayed both our fair Yankees and the Sawx -- I'm completely in love with the way this team hits with 2 outs and RISP. Can we trade Matsui and Damon for Sizemore or somehow get our claws into Jacobi?

As George Scott (the first baseman not the actor) once said:
"If we're gonna win, the players gotta play better,
the coaches gotta coach better,
the manager gotta manage better,
and the owners gotta own better."

19 Forgive me, I couldn't resist pointing out what (to me) is a really funny answer on multiple levels from Byrd. I will refrain from further snark on this isse, however tempting it is.

34 I would looove to see Sizemore in pinstripes. But if Shapiro trades a 26-year-old leadoff hitter who drew 100 walks and posted 31 Win Shares for Matsui and Damon (combined Win Shares: 32), he should have his head examined.

But I agree with you about the Tribe - I've really warmed up to this team, once the sting of the Yanks' defeat wore off. They're grinders.

1 Sorry, but I agree with 14 . You can't post a topic and insist that no one else comment on it; nor is it appropriate to call us immature if we do comment. I'll try to keep this as neutral as possible.

As I said yesterday, it was the organizational aspect of the Rockies story that troubled me, not any person's individual beliefs. As for Byrd, I have enormous respect for what he said, even if it is not my way. What struck me was his utter lack of sanctimony - finding God didn't make him perfect, didn't make him better than other people, just helped make him better than he was (in his own view, which is all that matters.) 3 , I had no problem with that statement; he's simply saying that what was a struggle before is still a struggle now. If this has helped him find resolve and find peace with himself, then I don't see that there can be anything bad about it.

34 Sample size, sample size, sample size. Here are the stats from the regular season, 2 outs, RISP:

Cleveland: .257/.361/.396
Yankees: .272/.357/.421

As for getting Sizemore, forget it, unless you're willing to give up Hughes or Joba. Not only is there the question of value that 36 notes, but Sizemore is probably the most popular Indians player since - well, since Rocky Colavito.

37 Maturity stems from the content of one's comments. In posting the link, I was merely offering a persepective that addressed many of the issues raised yesterday. I was hoping to avoid having the thread taken over by snide/ignorant comments, while at the same time offering an article that many might find interesting. In any event, I am glad to see most either kept their thoughts themselves or offered them in an intelligent manner, as expressed in 33 and 37 .

37 Yeah, I see Byrd's interview as miles away (and, frankly, above) the whole Rockies ideology.

(I wouldn't have mentioned this if nobody else had picked up on william's link.)

28 Nice job, pistolpete. Of course there will be no cries of "bush league" from the Sox fans. Just as earlier in the year when they complained that A-Rod "threw an elbow" even though earlier in the game Pedroia hadn't even been near the bag when he tried to take out Jeter (flying elbow and all). Not to mention, that it was okay for Hinske to "throw an elbow" into the throat of Posada on a collision at the plate (unlike Pedroia, Posada didn't whine about it). But I guess by now we all know that "elbows" and "slaps" and "HA's" are only bush league if they come from A-Rod...

41 i think the hinske hit was clean, personally.

42 Posada agrees with you. My point was that if A-Rod does that to Varitek... well, suddenly all of Red Sox Nation would be talking about how "bush league" it was to go after a poor defenseless catcher's throat with an elbow in an obvious attempt to hurt someone and possibly end their career.

Of course, Tek would probably still have had his mask on... since he never takes it off during a confrontation with A-Rod. ;-)

37 , 40 Yes, I see a huge difference between Byrd's own faith and the Rockies' institutionalized practices. I hope his faith gives him peace, I hope he conquers whatever demons he deals with, and I hope he recognizes the role of his own personal responsibility and free will in dealing with porn.

Some people may or may not feel it's appropriate to comment on another's. Sorry, I disagree.

That's "another's faith."

43 their fans might cry foul, but varitek probably wouldn't.

43 46 ...but i see your point.

I like how Pete Abe complains that it's the Yankees who are making this a whole cloak and dagger thing, and pokes fun at it, but in reality, it was the reporters who panicked when they didn't know where the meeting was yesterday and were reportedly zipping around Tampa like the Keystone Kops, peeking in windows looking for the Boss & Co...

41 I met a "new" Sox fan the other day (that is, he moved here in early 2004 and jumped on the wagon). We talked a little ball and when I brought up A-Rod, the guy immediately told me he respected A-Rod "until when he tried to slap the ball out of Arroyo's glove". I kept my mouth shut and changed the subject to the the current ALCS.

I am going to see this guy next week. I am sorely tempted to tell him that I really respected Pedroia "until he tried to slap the ball out of Martinez's glove" just to see what his reaction will be.

48 Yeah, I don't think he saw the ridiculous irony in all that.

It's the Yankees fault for not telling reporters EXACTLY where the secret meeting was, dontcha know!

38 Fair enough. I should've said, "I'm totally in love with the way this team hits with 2 outs and RISP for the past two weeks" but that caveat would seem to dilute the genuine affection I have for them. I'm not a Tribe fan. I've only watched them for the past couple of weeks, and I love what I see -- so you can take your "maths" and "perspective" and stuff it.

49 "It's totally different! Pedroia wasn't really slapping the ball - he was sliding! That's just the way he runs! Victor was in the basepath! He's just a rookie, he didn't know any better!"

Just speculating here.

52 Yeah, the 'rookie' excuse was already thrown out there.

Ummm, so they allow slapping the ball out of people's hands in AAA, AA? I've never been to a minor league game - someone help me out here...

51 I've always had a lot of respect for the way the Indians have built their team. When Shapiro realized that his formidable veteran core had aged beyond the point where they could deliver a championship, he sold them off and proactively rebuilt with the prospects he got in return. Contrast this approach with the Orioles, who held onto their veterans a year or two too long and are still flailing a decade later.

42 Another Banter dead horse!! No Comment

54 I also like the way that they have imitated the Yankees' (and Tigers of the 80s) approach of building around an up-the-middle offense, i.e. Martinez, Peralta and Sizemore. (Barfield had appeared to be the answer and 2nd, but he's faded. Perhaps they've struck gold with Cabrerra.)

34 - "Can we trade Matsui and Damon for Sizemore or somehow get our claws into Jacobi?"

Derek Jacobi would fit right in to the "veterans" dugout. ;-)

53 Also, apparently Pedroia has been in a coma the past three years, and did not know that there was a similar play in the 2004 ALCS that was criticized, loudly, by the fans and players of the team he plays for. Please.

More likely: "I am a Boston sports fan, and therefore all I say and do is right." Like playing a small market vibe whilst having the second largest payroll, $50M more than third place. Bellicheat broke the rules? Nooooo, Mangini is a snitch! Ipso facto, bitches.

57 What about Brook Jacoby?

I was going to make a squirrel-related joke about Pedroia, but then I found this image, which I had to share for obvious reasons.
http://tinyurl.com/35n774

51 I never had as much fun rooting for a non-Yankees team to win as I did Saturday night for the Tribe. What a great game to watch, with the added bonus of watching a Sawx fan cry in his beer.

For those of us "Torre-haters", I wish people would stop making it so personal. I don't, nor do 99.9% of the people that want to see a new manager, hate Joe Torre. He's a great guy by all accounts and brought 4 championships to the Bronx. Thinking that it's time for a new managerial strategy and hating someone are miles apart.

Pedroia is the next player to be placed on a pedestal in Beantown. We'll be hearing about who's better between Cano and Pedrioa for the next few years.

36 A couple of years ago, a Sizemore for Cano trade was floated around. I still think it's a damn tough call, but I may be under/over valuing them. Cano's bat is one thing, but his D is pretty stellar.

61 And, like the Varitek-Posada thing, it won't really be a debate.

Though apparently Pedroia has already been compared to David Eckstein, so I'm sure we're going to hear all about him from the MSM as time goes on. Especially if he wins RoY.

51 I agree, this Indians team is a lot of fun to watch.

Oh, another reason the Indians won't trade Sizemore: they have him signed for 5 more years at a total of about $31M. The last three would have been free agency years.

62 I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.

62 As tough as it is to find a good hitting AND fielding 2B, getting the same who can play CF is way more valuable. On an emotional level I'd miss Robbie's sweet swing, but Grady would be a huge upgrade.

I have a feeling this year's Indians are next year's White Sox/Tigers.

I would trade definitely Cano for Sizemore.

But Sizemore 07:Cleveland :: Jeter 99: Yankees. Way too valuable, and is the franchise. He's going nowhere.

68 Definitely trade...and to think I was just reading about language development today.

65 Well unless you've got someplace for Matsui, Damon and Melky to go, I think we'd better hold off on that one.

If you could somehow pull it off this winter, I could see declining Abreu's option and moving Melky to right, making Damon the full-time LF and putting Matsui at DH.

But then there's Giambi.

What a logjam. Can't wait until 2009.

67 Agreed, mainly because I expect Carmona to come back to earth and Miller won't be the answer yet.

69 Thank you, Rainman. ;)

according to this report, Guidry is most likely gone, regardless of if JT stays or goes. Eiland, most likely in.

sorry for espn link (yankz, i'm lookin' at you, bro!) and for no tinyurl... : ~

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3067357

27 Yes... Let's not forget when Xerox developed the most important technilogical advancement of the century... and then gave it away to Steve Jobs because "it looked childish". It's now M.S. Windows.

Or HP who laughed at Woz when he brought in a primative prototype of the first Apple computer, and was SO sure it was garbage, that HP reliquished their rights to it (which they had by default because Woz worked for them).

The Yankees have been a hugely dysfunctional organization since Steinbrenner took it over. Yes, he turned it from almost nothing into a multi-billion dollar enterprise. And we have produced some excellent ballclubs. But when you consider our financial resources, that we are up against teams who literally have a payroll of 1/3 of ours and produce a better team, it speaks for itself.

There is no reason why, at the ASB, this organization, knowing Torre's contract was up, could not have started and finished the decision making process.
1) The Yankees tank the year.
2) The Yankees come back but miss the PS
3) The Yankees make the PS but not the WS
4) The Yankees win the WS

Thats basically the 4 possible situations we faced at the ASB. Was it that hard to develope a plan in the next 3 months? It may have already been decided that they let Torre go. Whatever it is, the Yankees knew EXACTLY the possibilities coming and could easily have prepared for it. Now it's 7 days past the last game, and they still don't know? You think this is an efficient and effectly run organization?

72 Sigh...it's ok, I guess. Interesting read, though it seemed like even more speculation than usual. I'm guessing these news fellows are just desperate for Yankees headlines, since that's what sells.

73 I usually agree with you but this bit,

"But when you consider our financial resources, that we are up against teams who literally have a payroll of 1/3 of ours and produce a better team, it speaks for itself."

Is dead wrong. If you spend 2x more than another team it does not logically stand to reason that your team is going to be 2x better. Players by and large are paid based on their PAST performance and other irrational things like their marquee value, keeping them away from other teams, or the general cut of their jib. There is no 1:1 positive correlation between a players salary and his performance. It doesn't speak for itself. Winning the World Series is really really hard and dependant on luck, and health and all that other crap.

Case in point, the $11 million dollars the Yankees paid to a guy who only played in what, 2 games?

43 If ARod takes off his shirt to sun himself it gets more press then Bush's visit to Iraq. It's nuts. It's really a symtom of extremely lazy writing from sports 'journalists'. It's sensationalism at it's worst. ARod has been declared an open target, and anything written about him gets attention. It makes me sick.

But who want's to read about Pud-roia?

73 I think turning the franchise into a multi-billion dollar entity pretty much absolves all signs of dysfunction, from a business standpoint at least. As for dollars equating into success on the field, well, the mathematics and economics of baseball dictate against that. For one thing, the success rate of a baseball player is relatively small, allowing for considerable fluctuation in performance. Secondly, the economics of the game sometimes dictate that players get paid the most when they are already in decline. Finally, the more random nature of the playoffs mitigates against financial superiority.

I also disagree that this is a decision that could have been made at the ASB. Aside from results, the direction of the team was altered somewhat with the emergence of Chamberlain and Kennedy as well as the return of Hughes. What's more, it makes no sense to craft cookie cutter formulas designed to produce decisions based on outcomes (kind of like, we have a lead in the 8th, bring in Farnsworth). The Yankees have been wise to let the season (and Torre's contract) play out, and then re-evaluate his status with the team.

67 71 I disagree. The '05 White Sox and '06 Tigers were very similar: Came out of nowhere, low OBP, deep starting pitching, remained nearly injury-free, dominated for 2/3 of season, barely hung on at end. Both teams were set up for a letdown when their starting pitching regressed and injuries inevitably set in. The '07 Indians, by contrast, are the product of a 6-year rebuilding program. They have three of best offensive players (for their positions) in the game. They had their share of injuries this year and did not break away from the pack until the final 6 weeks. I do not expect the Indians to dominate next year, since baseball's parity is very real, but they will remain the team to beat in the AL Central.

75 They don't have to be twice as good, just 10% better. We have a payroll three times that of Cleveland's. We should be able to put togther a better team. Not one that wins 3 times as many games... just one that wins 10% more games.

This is on Big Stein and his sticking his nose in matters he knows little about. Imagine if he had left Gene Michael and Cashman to run the team, and he and Tampa stayed out of it. We wouldn't have a much better history?

And I know that a lot of Yankee money has gone to holding on to 'our guys', even if it was not the best financial deal. And for that I am greatful. Nonetheless, I look forward to Cashman putting together a WS team on considerably less money then we spend now.

77 I've worked for billion dollar companies that were completely dysfunctional but had one good thing going for them. For the Yankees, they have access to the largest media market in the country and historical brand equity that is unrivaled in professional sports. They could be run by a bunch of monkeys and still be reasonably successful.

79 The major flaw in your premise is that payrolls are not contructed on a year-to-year basis. In MLB, the existence of guaranteed, long-term contracts often means you are paying players more money in the future for current performance. As a result, the correlation between winning games and payroll is often skewed.

Now, if you look at the Yankees and Indians win totals over a long period, I think the correlation evens itself out. For example, over the last 10 years, the Yankees have averaged 98.3 wins, compared to the Indians at 85.6 (or nearly 15% more). So, in that sense, the Yankees, led by Big Stein, have achieved your 10% better requirement.

I guess you can consider different ways to revise history, but I am very happy Big Stein has been around for the past 30+ years.

79 But it's a function of a flawed market system. Teams are asked to pay players their current market value for years after their expected peak without taking depreciation into account.

Look at it this way, if I'm a procurement officer for IBM and I'm buying a felt tip pen. And it's a really fucking good felt tip pen, but...it's a felt tip pen that I know is going to deteriorate over time, why on earth would I pay the same amount of money for that same exact pen for ten years.

The Giambi contract is an albatross, the Jeter contract will likely be an ablatross by the time it ends, we all know the deal with Pavano. If you want to be so much better than everyone else, you hedge your risk by getting players that you know are 10% better than their peers. But in order to do that, you have to pay through the nose for a long time.

The alternative is to gamble on young guys, who aren't as "proven" but are cheaper. Sometimes those guys work out, and more often they don't.

The Yankees can't really afford to be the A's or the Twins. They are always going to want some of the proven "studs." And in order to get them they are going to have to take on stupid contracts that pay a player the same amount of money over the course of that players decline as it paid him when he was at his peak.

Yes, we have Cano, and Hughes and Melky and Joba, but without A-Rod and Jeter and Abreu and Rivera and Posada we don't even sniff the post season.

God I wish we could edit comments.

81 or at least... his money.
And speaking of religion:
1) Will the Yankees re-up Bobby?
2) Will they trade either Mats or JD?
3) Will they give up real talent for Santana (Wang, Cano, TClip)
4) Is Guidry out?
5) If Torre's out, who's the bench coach?
6) Does ARod stay?

83 Yeah, "ablatross"? Come on man, what are you thinking?!

84 Yes, no, no, yes, not answering because it's not Y/N, yes.

80 I don't accept that notion. When G.S. bought the Yankees, those same variables were in existence. Granted, the exploitation of media was a long way off, but Steinbrenner was still ahead of his time.

"For the Yankees, they have access to the largest media market in the country and historical brand equity that is unrivaled in professional sports. They could be run by a bunch of monkeys and still be reasonably successful."

I know you are exaggerating to make a point, but the handy example of the CBS ownership days goes to show that it is possible to screw up the Yankees as a business.

73 That's a bit misleading--there were infinitely more than four possible outcomes, because they would (presumably) evaluate the manager not only on the season outcome, but also on HOW the team reached the outcome. In other words, the team may actually be evaluating Torre on the job he did regardless of outcome, and also on how they see him fitting into future plans.

Plus, we seem to assume that the debate is simply 'Torre stay or go.' I rather suspect it's Torre stay v. go depending on a host of other factors (and then a host of other factors that depend of his position). Do they have a viable candidate in mind? Is it possible/probable to sign him? How much is the team willing to risk not rehiring Torre even if their top candidates for replacement fall through? If Torre statys, what coaching staff whould stay around him? How much relative power will the manager and general manager have in determining roster make-up, and so on.

This, I suspect, is why the decision has not been made yet. And it needn't, because they don't owe Torre anything, really, until the last day of his contract (nor does he owe the team anything).

85 i was thinking ALBAtross

89 they wouldn't say that torre was returning until they had an agreement on a contract as well. that could take some time to iron out, especially when pay cuts and legacies are involved.

based on nothing, i think that the longer this takes to announce, the more likely it is that he stays.

84 Don't Matsui and Damon have no trade clauses? Are there any FO's out there that are staffed completely by suckers? If so, man do we have a deal for them.

82 I think that the real tragedy of this season is that all of the veterans we want to keep around are becoming free agents, while all the ones we don't want around are locked into soul-crushing long term contracts.

On the larger point of free-agent acquisition, it's a suboptimal strategy for exactly the reasons 82 lists in his post. If you're going to sign a long contract, it's best to do it with a guy who's going to be 32 in 7 years, not 42.

On a personal level, I'd rather watch young, inexperienced players screw up than veteran players underperform their contracts.

84 No, George is more than his money. There are plenty of wealthy owners who couldn't really care about winning. Here in Detroit, we suffer with an NFL franchise owner who is satisfied to just sell out his stadium, win or lose. George has certainly overstepped his bounds at times (and has occasionally hurt the team in doing so), but his passion for winning has propelled the team's succes.

If you want too much information about "the process" in Tampa, go here:

http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryankees/

Ed Price of the Star Ledger is updating every hour with details like who arrived when, who's coming outside for cigarette breaks.

It's completely over the top. I love it.

94 glad to see the Star Ledger is still the sad rag it always was ...

Sad rag? Their Yanks coverage is as good as any.

Price went with bad info on the Mattingly story the other day, but why would you call the paper a sad rag? Everybody gets it wrong sometimes, especially in situations like this. They're not publishing Lupica so you have to admit they have that going for them.

84 Re: Santana - are you proposing all three of those players, or one of them as the cornerstone? All three might do it, but only because of Cano. Even there, I'm not sure how much they'll want the arbitration-elgible Wang and Cano. T-Clip? You'd have to do a lot better than that.

82 and 92

I suppose that, if the Yankees really don't want to give the long-term contract to ARod, they could sign Jones to a one-year deal(which is all Boras wants apparently) and trade Melky in a package to the Cubs for Aramis Ramirez who seemingly has worn out his welcome in Chicago. Ramirez can opt out of his $15 million/year contract after 2010

The idea is that what they miss by losing ARod's offense is offset by what they could pick up from the Jones offensive upgrade.

This makes sense, but I have to admit that it isn't exactly a pleasant scenario.

Jacque Jones OPS+ = 87
Melky = 93

And Melky is 10 years younger and makes the minimum. It's a downgrade at two positions.

And the Cubs would only trade Aramis if they knew they were going to sign Arod.

Ugh, I want no part of Jacque Jones.

How has Ramirez worn out his welcome in Chicago? The guy's a stud.

97 they might be talked into taking wang. (new stadium on the way... with GRASS!!)

they'd probably want cano.

they could use a corner OF, so melky might be an attractive option.

i'm sure they'd ask about hughes and joba.

the only other guy i can think of that might be an option for minnesota (as a throw in) might be kennedy.

santana won't come cheap. the yankees will have to pay up to get him, but if they can hold onto joba and hughes (and cano?) and still get him, they should.

(understatement of the day.)

99 and 101 ANDRUW JONES -- it was perfectly clear from the context.

100 and 101 Apparently, Ramirez acquired the reputation of not hustling this year. Maybe it's a personality conflict with Lou.

If ARod doesn't stay, Chicago is probably the most likely destination for him. Moreno made comments yesterday that indicate that the Angels do have a budget.

103 OK, better - but I don't want Andruw much, either.

A quick comment about the Yanks payroll vs. Indians payroll and team construction:

The Yankees contend every year. That is both something that they can do because of their financial resources and at the same time the cause of their huge payroll.

The Indians, as someone mentioned, are the product of a rebuilding program. They were under .500 for three years (including a really bad 2003), before coming roaring back in 2005 (falling short, but winning 93 games), but then had a bad year in 2006. They made the playoffs this year for the first time since 2001.

As a result of that, they no doubt got some draft picks that the Yanks will never have due to winning ~95 games ever year. The Yankees still have their financial advantage, of course, and have learned to use it more in the draft and internationally - good. But let's not pretend it's as simple as the Indians payroll + 96 wins & ALCS > Yankees payroll + 94 wins & ALDS loss. The Yankees have never blown it up and rebuilt.

And do you really want them to? When they can still manage to win 90+ games a season and develop talent like Wang, Cano, Melky, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy... I say NO, and just accept that their payroll will remain nutty. The Yankees, with their resources, can rebuild and contend all at the same time - and they're finally doing it right. The future is bright.

THIS JUST IN:

3 p.m.: Grounds gets attention
Posted by Ed Price October 17, 2007 3:09PM
Categories: Latest news
Editor's Note: Yankees beat writer Ed Price is in Tampa and will file updates at the top of every hour - and more often if needed.

As the meeting continue (as far as I can tell) in the Legends Field offices, a grounds crew attends to the half-field just outside the stadium.

The field is used for pickoff drills, pitchers' fielding practice and perhaps bunt work. So there seems no way it will be used until mid-February. But the workers are cutting the grass and watering the dirt as it a game will be played there tonight.

104 I didn't say that this solution would be fun, but the offense would have to be replaced somehow.

102 Trading Wang and Cano in a deal for Santana is not a good idea in my opinion. Santana is about 9 winshares better than Wang, but he will cost a lot more money and then the Yankees would have to replace Cano.

I'm not even sure that the Twins would take the arbitration-eligible Yankees over a Dodgers offer of Kershaw and Kemp. To compete with the Dodgers' offer, the Yankees would probably have to give up Chamberlain or Hughes.

106 Maybe the FO members are going to have a little softball game to decide if Torre stays or not...

Now batting for the visiting Torrestays (stays, stays)...number thurty-three (three, three) Brian (brian) Cashman (man, man)...

Number thurty-three (three, three)

107 If Rodriguez walks, I think the Yankees are just plain screwed. But I'm thinking, more and more, that that's not going to happen.

107 Pitching in Dodger Stadium, Johan Santana could put up some sick numbers.

107 My favorite Santana deal remains Maybin and Jurrjens from the Tigers. The Tigers will offer Bonderman, the Twins will counter with Miller and they'll settle on Jurrjens. Maybin is blocked by Granderson in CF and he'll take Hunter's place at a fraction the cost in Minnesota. Santana and Verlander (and Miller if he pans out) in Detroit would be frightening.

108 As per their contract with the New York Yankees Radio Network, Lumpy & Chuckles are covering the big game:

Waldman: The stakes are high here, John. It's not just a game on the line... it's a man (chokes up) a man named (sobbing) Joe... I'm sorry... (sniff) a man who has meant so much to this club.

Sterling: Cashman is ready... thuh pitch... IT IS HIGH... IT IS FAR... IT IS... ball 1... you're absolutely right about Joe, Suzyn. He HAS meant a lot to this team. How can you put it into WORDS? If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: you can not predict baseball.

109 and 110 Agreed. I've wondered how many Cy Young Awards Santana would win as a Dodger. 4 more (1 behind Clemens)??

If ARod walks, does it make sense for the Yankees to spend so much money on Posada, Mo, and Abreu? That's a tough call, especially if they don't try to replace ARod with someone better than Betemit (or even Lowell).

112 Thanks, Sliced. It's been a rough day. I needed that laugh.

112 Sliced, that was perfect!

103 With the sale of the Cubs in limbo, they aren't going to be in on A-Rod. I don't see how they could be. Too much money, too many questions.

108 & 112 LOL. Good stuff.

108 Speaking of "The voice of God"*, has anybody heard if he's made any improvements? I'm convinced his absence had something to do with the latest poor showing.

*please do not get offended. I do not actually believe Bob Sheppard is God. Or anything else associated with any religious discussion.

117 Todd Helton? I didn't know he was injured.

(please see standuptriple's caveat. It was a joke.)

speaking of jokes, pete abe has a new funny post up. doesn't come close to Sliced in 112 , however...

Somehow, Andruw was even worse than Melky last year (OPS+ = 88). Yeah, he'll probably bounce back and be better, but will cost many, many millions more than Melky. I'm also not sure how much of a defensive upgrade he'd be.

OTOH, he would make Melky, a pretty valuable chip, expendable.

God probably has a great sense of humor. However, he's a really tough audience. So if you're going to try a joke, it better be good. When God throws a tomato he throws it good.

Interesting fact though, God did mention to once that though he loves baseball he's pretty strict about not messing with the games. Even if a player has a dead momma begging him to help out.

on NESN: The Globe 10.0 with Bob Ryan and Dan Shaughnessy they are openly discussing Steinbrenner and the early onset of Alzheimers.

both also reporting that while Ian O'conner is a respected reporter he got through to Steinbrenner unexpectedly and that he probably doesn't remember the conversation

117 pure bigotry of the worst kind. some people are so ignorant.

121 We subscribe to the Gospel of Christopher Lloyd around these parts. God and angels will interfere in regular games, but not championships (pennants included).

For those of you that didn't get the reference (shame on you):

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109127/

Boras on CNBC says A-Rod is worth $500 mil for 10 years to the Yankees. We can all sip our $25 beers as we watch A-Rod hit his 800th home run.

It is time to cut ties with him and rebuild around team players.

Let Boras try to get his 500 mil elsewhere. He won't come close.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/21224927

127 Arod is not going to get anywhere near 50 mil/year. Not even close.

Besides that, I read something pretty convincing recently that put Arod's value at 48 mil a year. I'll look for it, but don't hold your breath. Anyone wanna help?

111 no way Minny trades him within the division with the possibility of having to face him 5 times a year.

129 And the rumored Kershaw-Kemp deal from the Dodgers trumps that.

In fact, it might trump just about everything.

127 Boras also went around talking about how Johnny Damon was a sure-fire Hall of Famer, the greatest leadoff man since Rickey Henderson, and that he was going to get a seven-year deal for $15M/year. Just because Boras says it doesn't make it true.

If A-Rod gets $50 million per, I will send a letter to Scott Boras personally congratulating him on a job well done.

Just to be clear, that rumored Kershaw-Kemp deal is just that, a rumor, or more likely, idle gossip from the newspaperblogosphere. As much as I love Santana, if that deal happened, you would hear the sound of an implosion in cyberspace turning into a black hole in the place where Dodger Thoughts used to be. (Esp if Santana didn't immediately sign a long term deal). Kershaw is called The Minotaur on DT for his near-mythical status and is hoped to be untouchable, but I guess you never know.

Holy...I just looked up Kershaw, and damn. He's dominated like Hughes did at the same age pretty much, a little younger if anything.

But I would trade Hughes + Jackson (that's as close as we can get to Kemp) for Santana, probably, assuming we could extend Johan. But then again, we do have Joba, IPK, and a dozen others.

Wow! Sour grapes and general demoralization have prevented me from following the postseason, so imagine my surprise to discover that Cleveland's up 3-1!

It's enough to make me tune in tonight.

As the guy who sells me my beer and wine said, "It's still baseball," after all.

It's especially baseball if I can watch Boston lose.

134 no game tonight.

135 Ah, thanks. Amazing how one day my whole life (or so it seemed) was baseball, and now...

Winter's evil.

133 Shhh! "The Minotaur," if you please.

The Mazzone effect:

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2005/03/the_mazzone_eff_1.php

126 Thanks. I thought this was a Yankees-friendly place.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0791924/bio

Or this,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Sheppard

History can be your friend.

115 If the Cubs are out, I guess that only leaves the Red Sox.

Angels: Moreno was pretty definitive in that LA Times article.

White Sox: No way Reinsdorf pays anyone $30 million per year.

Mets: Wright/Reyes block the way.

Dodgers: Also too cheap.

Of all Oriole pitchers that pitched at least 20 games for the team in both 05 and 06, their ERA went up 0.93 (!) during Mazzone's first year.

However, there were only six such pitchers, and the data is obviously very skewed. Daniel Cabrera, who just has to be uncoachable, saw his ERA go up a full point. Bruce Chen went from being a starter with a 3.83 ERA to a reliever with a 6.93 ERA. I seriously doubt Mazzone had much to do with that. It was probably injury, regression, or some combination.

I would crunch the numbers for 06 to 07 and an overall 05 to 07, but there's no point. Just not enough good data IMO.

139 Don't know if you were here, but during one game thread, we tried to cram as many "Angels in the Outfield" jokes in as possible.

142 My bad. I have a good friend who was an extra in the filming of AitO. That is the only reason I would ever have to watch a second of the movie.

I have to say, I don't get rooting for Cleveland. It's like rooting for the guy who stole your girlfriend.

At the same time, I can't bring myself to root for Boston. And I can't take the NL seriously.

So I just pretend that the season is over.

Am I alone on this?

144

Cleveland is the best of a lot of bad options.

There are also those who say that if the team that beat you wins it all, at least you got beat by the best.

A few thoughts on the Yanks' deliberations:

1. I am starting to suspect that the decision with regard to Torre may be more closely tied into the A-Rod deal than I first thought. That is, A-Rod may have placed some constraints on who he would play for and the Yanks may want to wait until they know whether A-Rod is going to come back before they pull the trigger on the managerial decision.

2. With all due respect to Zimmer, nobody has job security in professional sports (other than Isiah Thomas, apparently). And nobody gets treated the "right way". Does Mo, the best reliever in the history of baseball, deserve to be kept waiting to find out whether he will be playing another year or two in Yankee Stadium?

Every player underneath Joe, regardless of talent, hall-of-fame status, or years in pinstripes, gets to the end of their last contract-year season without knowing what will happen.

If Mo, Posada, etc. can handle a few weeks of uncertainty, so can the skipper.

146 Matt Millen also has incredible job security. More so than Isiah, as I believe Jimmy Dolan chewed Isiah out, but the Fords have done nothing but kiss Millen's butt - and sign him to an extension!

144 As a baseball fan, as opposed to a Yankees fan, I think seeing the Serious in Colorado is going to be fun, so I'm pulling for the Rockies. If there wasn't such a good general story, I'd be in the same boat as you.

144 at the end of the lds i said i'd root for the sox because i was so mad about the bugs. but there's just no way. i don't think it's so much that they're the red sox. it's that i know too many sox fans. let cleveland win, i won't have to hear about it. that's why the team i least want to ever win is the mets, not the sox. too much bullshit would ensue.

my dad tells me that in 1986 after the world series mets fans were basically rioting in the streets in queens where he worked. he claims that the only reason a crazy group of fans didn't overturn his little nissan was because they saw him walk out of his building towards the car and mistook his old school knicks jacket for a mets jacket. it was a pretty cool jacket though.

Manny: "It doesn't happen, so who cares? There's always next year. It's not like it's the end of the world."

http://tinyurl.com/2zlt47

Thank god for Derek Jeter. I can't think of a single Yankee who would say something like that. How the hell do people root for this clown?

Also, Bob has a fascinating read up about Pythagoras. I knew the 04 Yanks were overrated, but 12 games...

149 i know, i read that a few minutes ago. shit like that makes me feel like a-rod gets the short end of the deal on public perception. but, whatever...

150 i read bob's post, but didn't follow the link. perhaps i should...

Isn't the list of six-year minor league free agents out by now? The deadline is October 15, so usually Baseball America and MiLB.com have the lists posted by the 17th or so. But nobody seems to have it.

127 Boras is a smart man, but his claims in this case are very easy to challenge (not suprisingly, Darren Rovell failed to do so).

1) For starters, the Yankees' attendance has been gradually rising since 1996. While I think you can give Arod some credit for the 2003-2004 bump, it doesn't make sense to compare 2003 to 2007 and claim Arod is the difference. Regardless, in it's last season, YS is going to be sold out, regardless of who is on the team. Then after that, the new Stadium will likely be sold out in 2009 and for a few years into the future. As things stand, the Yankees probably wouldnt even need to field a good team to sell out over the next two seasons.

2) Boras also is claiming that YES' ratings are attributable to Arod. Once again, that claim is hard to make beyond the 2003-2004 timeframe.

3) Boras claims that the valuation of YES will be lessened by losing Arod's $20mn contribution to cash flow, which he claims should value Arod at a greater than 2x multiple. Off the bat, that would only be relevant if the Yankees were looking to see YES or borrow heavily off of the asset. What's more, a higher valuation for YES could actually hurt the Yankees in the short-term if the rumors about Goldman Sachs selling out to the Yankees are accurate.

4) Finally, even if Arod was worth $50mn to the Yankees, Boras is forgetting about the luxury tax. In reality, that $50mn salary would equate to a cost of $70mn, which likely would mitigate against all the benefits Boras claims. If you adjust Boras' $50mn figure for the tax, you get to a number a lot closer to $35mn.

Off the top of my head, the $35mn number also seems inflated. Once you clear away some of the noise in Boras' valuation, I think the correct number will be closer to $30mn, which is the ballpark I think Arod will be in. Now, as for the years? I wonder how Boras determines the value of the 40 year old Arod. Does he really think fans will be pouring out to see him at the point (especially as he'd have smashed all the records several years earlier, by most projections)?

149 "I starting telling myself 'Why are you so nervous? This is supposed to be fun. What's the worst thing that could happen? If you lose, you'll be back home in Colorado hunting elk.'" - Goose Gossage