Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Meeting of the Minds
2007-10-16 05:47
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Well, we all know what team He is pulling for. And wouldn't you know it, the Red Sox and Indians are still playing baseball (my guess is that the ALCS will go at least six). But in Yankeeland, all thoughts are focused squarely on the future. First up, of course, Joe Torre. As Ed Price reports, Don Mattingly, thought to be the leading candidate for Torre's job, may not be interested in the position after all.

So far, there is no news to report yet, but that may change over the course of the afternoon.

In the meantime, whatta ya hear, whatta ya say?

Comments (160)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-16 06:14:58
1.   JL25and3
"We do believe that if you do things right and live your life right, good things are going to happen."

Has he read the book of Job recently?

2007-10-16 06:24:48
2.   Sliced Bread
Man, who wouldn't want to be a midge on the wall at that Tampa meeting?

Everybody in the room, including Cashman, and especially the Brothers Steinbrenner should shut their yaps, put their pencils down, and let the Stick speak. He holds the answers to the Yankees short-term future.

Stick it on ya bumper: Torre In '08.

2007-10-16 06:28:59
3.   yankz
Well, the God business seems to be working for them.

Maybe they can pray for Chip and Dane Cook to get fired.

2007-10-16 06:29:52
4.   Andre
Gotta love this: Matsuzaka, Boston's $103 million man, fails again

I expect to see this kind of headline written about ARod, but Dice-K? At least the skewering occurs in other towns too.

2007-10-16 06:32:19
5.   NJYankee41
Just in case some of you don't look at the previous thread, this is what I posted:

This is from Tom Verducci:

"OK, you've probably heard too much already about those infamous sacrifice flies of Cleveland, the mighty midges that, unlike almost all AL hitters, knocked Yankees phenom Joba Chamberlain off his game. But this is too good not to pass on: When the bugs started swarming Chamberlain, a local insect expert in Cleveland telephoned the Indians with an urgent message -- those bugs are called midges, and whatever you do, do NOT use insect repellent; midges are attracted to the stuff. The Yankees practically bathed in bug spray; the more Chamberlain put on, the more the bugs swarmed him. So there you go. The Yankees can spend $190 million on payroll and still leave a blatant weakness: no, not their middle relief -- their lack of an entymology expert."

Why haven't the Yankees employed one of these?

2007-10-16 06:36:17
6.   Dimelo
I just read the Rockies article, and I thought they were a good story till I read that crap. I hate it when religious beliefs weaves its way into sports and politics.

The last thing I need to hear is how their beliefs guided them to a world championship. I'm rooting hard for the non-believers here, whoever they are.

I am rooting hard for the Indians to win the whole thing, but even if the Red Sox win the pennant then I will be forced to root for them over the Rockies. I was actually liking the Rockies....but this changes things for me.

F- that crap. I like to keep my sports and religious beliefs separate.

2007-10-16 06:37:57
7.   JohnnyC
Gene Michael wanted Lou Piniella's return in 1996 AND in 2007. The first time around he wasn't heeded because he'd been relieved of his GM duties by George in the putsch that swept Showalter out (whom he didn't want either...Piniella, again had been first choice). Last winter, he was out-ranked and out-flanked by Cashman and by the fact Torre was still owed $7 million. Gene Michael has never been a "supporter" of Torre. His "exile" from the FO hierarchy coincides with Torre's tenure. It was only through Cashman's recent efforts to distance himself from the so-called Tampa mafia that Stick has re-surfaced as an important figure. There were stretches of years when he was not even invited to attend the year-end meetings in Tampa.
2007-10-16 06:43:29
8.   rbj
I watched Mythbusters last night -- they had a pretty good show on baseball myths: humidors do work, corking the bat doesn't. Oh, and there was a very special guest there for the pitching myths.
2007-10-16 06:46:03
9.   Sliced Bread
7 I'm not so sure about all that.

Here's how the NY Daily News figures Stick stands on Joe:

"Stick is said to be open-minded, but he will have to be convinced that removing Torre at this time is in the team's best interest."

That suggests he might be in favor of sticking with Joe for now.

2007-10-16 06:51:50
10.   Jersey
6 Aye. I'm in the same boat. The Rox were my team til I found out about that whole thing. The only "acceptable" team for me now is the Tribe.

If the Rox win, we'll have to hear about how it was the power of Jesus FOREVER. I'm just glad the Red Sox haven't caught the faith - they're annoying enough already.

2007-10-16 06:53:30
11.   NJYankee41
The Rockies are a bit weird about that stuff. I don't agree with it, but it doesn't seem to be doing any harm.

Meanwhile we know where Jeter's beliefs lie:

2007-10-16 07:00:18
12.   OldYanksFan
The Yankees knew that Torre's contract was up this year. They have had to think about his replacement. If they do not have alternatives lined up, then I have to think they intended on keeping Joe aboard.

I want Torre to stay, but if the Yankees have thought this through and have a better alternative, I'll live with it. But if they were waiting for the results from the PS to decide Torre's future, I just can't abide by that.

This whole afair bothers me because it shows the Yankees FO simply does not have their shit together. Is this because of the Steinbrenner 'family' issues? Is there still in-house fighting to the point where decisions like this can't be made?

Whether you want Torre in or out, isn't this process fucked up for a BILLION dollar corporation? This is embarrassing. How cound they NOT have had a plan in place?

2007-10-16 07:06:10
13.   OldYanksFan
11 Is it possible that Jeter's poor performance in the playoff was due to 'spreading himself too thin'?

Does this guy check into Hotels under his own name? He must really show the girls a good time if their parking fees are the primary thing on their minds. Maybe he needs a rule about women and double-digit IQs.

Thank God ARod is married, eh?

2007-10-16 07:10:19
14.   JL25and3
9 Or it might suggest that he knows it's a fait accompli, that Torre is staying, and Stick's putting his spin on it to make it seem that his is the crucial vote.
2007-10-16 07:11:57
15.   JL25and3
5 And I'll repeat my response: Verducci could use an orthography expert, or at least a dictionary. If his punchline depends entirely on the word "entomology," he really should spell it correctly.
2007-10-16 07:13:19
16.   JL25and3
Also, check out today's Cardboard Gods:
2007-10-16 07:15:53
17.   kylepetterson
"Yankees bench coach Don Mattingly has told a member of the Steinbrenner family he does not feel ready for the manager's job and is uncomfortable with replacing Joe Torre, according to a friend. The friend, who requested anonymity because the situation is unresolved, said he spoke directly with the former Yankees great in recent days. Mattingly's stance could open the door for the Yankees to bring back Torre for a 13th season because he was the leading candidate for the job."

Newark Star Ledger

2007-10-16 07:20:18
18.   NJYankee41
13 Maybe he still uses this name...

2007-10-16 07:20:32
19.   ms october
6 Yeah - I wanted to cheer for the Rockies too but I also like some separation. I guess having Playboys is a sin but it is okay to have a Coors stadium.

2 If you get a hold of the midge, please tell him to try and put together an organizational chart for us. 12 There still must not be defined roles for too many people and with H&H more in the mix there must be even more confusion.

2007-10-16 07:29:00
20.   Sliced Bread
14 That doesn't seem to be Stick's m.o. and as I understand it, he doesn't have a vote on Torre, but is there to advise.
2007-10-16 07:29:04
21.   Chyll Will
12 Maybe we and our fellow Banterers can begin to understand the dynamics at force if we can clearly delineate who is part of the Tampa FO and who is part of the New York FO (again, just for starters). Clearly Cash and Levine are NY, clearly the Steinb's are Tampa. who else falls where?

Just to remind you, I've always had issues with the way the Yankees' corporate environment seems to be set up. Two "HQs" in different areas and with different philosophies will definitely fall short of their mission every time. When did this happen? I'm guessing that George decided to move his personal involvement south when he started feeling his age. My common sense instincts tell me that King of the Hill and Hal 9000 would prefer to consolidate the operations one place or another if they truly are in charge, and while it would make sense if it were back in NY, I would unhappily understand if they felt a need to stick around in Xanadu for their father's well-being. But the duality of the business operations has to come to a close to avert a definite collapse.

It's with that in mind that I'm guarding my optimism about the upcoming season and the first season in the new stadium. This year has shown that our deficiencies in scouting major-league talent for the big-club's needs is even more likely to catch up to us before our home-grown players can fill the holes. Can we afford to burn out the prime of our youth before the rest of it catches up? Not to say we need to expend that youth that's not here yet, but we certainly need to identify better talent available than we have so far... that's ALMOST a Jim Dean argument without the salt (rest in peace man, we'll gettum next year), but yeah, we've been mediocre the last several years with the free-agent fill-in thing...

2007-10-16 07:45:20
22.   williamnyy23
6 It always amazes me how people get offended by others' religious beliefs. I can't see what's so threatening about listening to a baseball player give thanks to God. I am sorry that the Rockies having so many members not embarrassed to express their faith publicly bothers you so much, but make no mistake about it, the sentiment you expressed is bigotry.
2007-10-16 07:47:21
23.   Chyll Will
20 How much closer would we have been if George had simply left Zim alone? That points to my earlier rant about Torre needing to choose his own advisors; Zimmer left and later started advising the D-Rays, and now they spank the Yanks as much as we spank them. Subsequent bench coaches have been OJT managers-in-waiting, which means that Torre is pretty much advising them on what to tell him. How do you trust that judgment? See how well that's worked out here and on their own?

Seems to me that Stick would be the last of the Mohicans in terms of an advisor that Torre could trust on the bench, but I don't know or believe if they trust each other that much, and I don't believe that Stick is willing to become that vulnerable to the FO, even or especially for Torre's sake.

2007-10-16 07:53:35
24.   mehmattski
21 Well, the problem has been the lack of attractive mid-tier free agents the last couple years. Jim Dean's arguments almost always centered on the players we didn't get via trade (such as those recently showcased during the NLCS). From last years' posts by Cliff, the free agent market at 1B and BUC were sorely deficient. Cashman did eventually solve both problems, but it cost the golden arm of Scott Proctor and three weeks of Miggy Cairo at first base.

The point about home-grown talent is a good one. The future is now with Yankees pitching prospects, as this year's #1 pick is likely to be the keystone in the pitching staff renaissance, should he return well from Tommy John surgery. However, the position-player prospect pool wavers between "meh" and "3-5 years away." The problem is similar to ones faced by the two Florida baseball teams, but mitigated by the money the Yankees can afford to spend. Completely rebuilding in 2008, as suggested over at RAB, is probably not feasible, as the players you'd have to throw to the fire (Pittliere, E. Duncan, Sardihna, Gardner) border between "not ready" and "never gonna be ready."

The solution, I think, is with Chien-Ming Wang. I worry, along with other statheads, that the bottom's gonna fall out for the sinkerballer, and there's a good chance that his production can be replaced by Alan Horne as soon as the middle of next year. Wang's trade value is very high right now, and while he probably won't fetch someone like Johan Santana, there's a good chance he could fetch, in a package with another arm, someone like Chris Carter or Matt Kemp. In order to avoid the gap between the maturing pitchers and the immature position players in the Yankees' system, I think trades are the way to go.

2007-10-16 07:54:18
25.   Just fair
I find it interesting that there was much discussion on this board about the "Indians" and their logo. Offensiive this, offensive that, and the other side of course. Now some may be annoyed at what the Rockies are reading in the locker room. Can't we all just enjoy the games? Heathen, bible-thumber, I could care less. I like watching Tulowitski pick it at short.
I was dozing off last night when I faintly heard the Mattingly story on the radio. This has to bode well for Torre, yes.
2007-10-16 08:00:44
26.   monkeypants
22 William, we rarely, rarely agree on anything...but we do on this issue. Thank you.

Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera make no secret of their religiosity. I wonder if Dimelo will start pulling against them?

2007-10-16 08:01:09
27.   Dimelo
22 Chief Wahoo our nation turns its lonley eyes to you.
2007-10-16 08:01:33
28.   mehmattski
22 I think the issue is that many fans would rather believe that on-the-field talent, rather than supernatural forces, were responsible for their teams' victory. Invoking God is tantamount to invoking steroids, it suggests that the performance on the field was not entirely due to the gifts the athletes have.

If an athlete wants to say that his gifts are given to him by God, that's fine by me. I also have no problem if an athlete wants to use his position as a platform to further a cause, such as a belief system. I'd prefer, of course, that such platforms agree with mine, but that's not bigotry.

The problem isn't athletes being outspoken about their religious beliefs. The problem is athletes invoking those religious beliefs to explain their performance.

2007-10-16 08:15:28
29.   Sarasota
.......apparently the Rockies are interested in redefining the term "mission statement"......why is this even being discussed?
2007-10-16 08:19:24
30.   mehmattski
Also I'd like to point out that if there were a team that revealed they study On the Origin of Species before every game and thank natural selection for bestowing unto them strength, agility, and hand-eye coordindation, about 2/3 of this country would flip out.
2007-10-16 08:20:42
31.   Dimelo
26 It bothers me when it becomes an elitist attitude - that some higher power has entrusted them with determining what is moral or immoral. Where their faith is the reason for their success.

Mariano's faith is something personal and he keeps it, for the most part, to himself. I don't have a problem with that. Pettite is a little bit more nutty about his beliefs, but I just dismiss it a lot easier because there aren't full page reports about his faith. When Curt Schilling says that Jesus allowed him to pitch with a bloody ankle, then yes...that should bug me...because why wasn't Jesus helping the Yanks. Jesus should not be involved in sports, he should be worried about more important things.

Why is Jesus so worried about sports when there's so much other worse crap going on in the world? I guess I'll ask Jesus myself

I always loved what Oral Hersheheiser (sp?) said after the Dodgers won the Series in '88, when he dropped down to a knee he said he did that because he was humbled by the moment because it was bigger than him. He didn't want to talk about his faith because he didn't think it was appropriate, however, I could understand his position about being humbled and giving thanks to whatever higher power he prays to but that doesn't mean THAT higher power was solely on his side. He wasn't drawing a line in the sand between his faith and that higher power's position, with respect to the winning team.

It is why I became annoyed with Kurt Warner and others like him. The same way I am annoyed at Tony Dungy saying that Gays will go to hell, but his son commits suicide - which is a sin and against Christian beliefs. Is his son in hell?

I think the media should focus more on pointing out what a farse their "faith" really is. The people of faith that I know aren't worried about what is moral and immoral, they are just worried about who has a good heart and who is a good person. That's my faith. All that other crap is, quite simply, noise.

2007-10-16 08:21:08
32.   NJYankee41
I just saw this at WW. Those crazy Sox fans are at it again.

I don't know whats worse, what they do or how it becomes "legitimate" news. It's the featured story on the homepage.

2007-10-16 08:23:14
33.   williamnyy23
28 I don't think athletes invoke divine intervention as the reason why they do well. It seems to me as if they are more often expressing sentiments similar to your second paragraph. Why people get so upset about that both confuses and worries me.

As for what is and isn't bigotry, I was simply referring to the notion that one wouldn't root for the Rockies because many members of the team openly profess religious beliefs. That's no different then deciding to root against a team because they have too many black/latino/jewish players. I'd like to think one would be ashamed to express such ignorant bigotry, but some of the posts above indicate otherwise.

2007-10-16 08:23:20
34.   Ken Arneson
I think the thing that's most bothersome about thanking God for a victory is the implication that God prefers one team over the other. If I lose a game, I don't particularly like hearing that not only did I lose, but God doesn't like me as much as the other guy.
2007-10-16 08:25:30
35.   monkeypants
28 Who cares if that's how they explain their success? If that's what they believe, are we to ask them to lie? The real problem lies in the inane questions they are asked after the game: the reporter approaches the victorious player and asks him to comment on the win. He can: 1] say empty platitudes about taking it one day at a time; 2] bore the reporter with his workout and training routine; 3] say that the other team is terrible and weak; 4] say something relating to his personal belief, especially if he thinks that has an impact.

By the way, on a theological level, if one subscribes to the notion of an all powerful, all knowing god, as do most monotheistic systems, then victory on the field IS attributable to that god.

2007-10-16 08:29:05
36.   monkeypants
31 To answer your question, see 35 . But to reiterate, in a monotheistic religion with an all knowing all poweful god, ALL actions and outcomes are attributable to god. So yes, in such a system, Jesus did allow Schilling to pitch on a wounded ankle, and so to would it have been part of God's plan for one team to lose and another to win. There is nothing theologically inconsistent with the statement. Rather, if you don't like the answer, don't ask the question.
2007-10-16 08:29:22
37.   Dimelo
28 Well said!
2007-10-16 08:29:23
38.   williamnyy23
31 Pettite is a little bit more nutty about his beliefs

What is so nutty about Pettitte's beliefs? Again, you have put forth a statement ripe with bigotry. Just because you don't share or understand someone else's faith, it seems as if you think it is appropriate to mock it. Well, that's just an ignorant way to think.

2007-10-16 08:30:57
39.   monkeypants
34 God liking you or not has little to do with your loss, whether it was God's plan for you to lose or not. To understand God's freindship only in terms of who he lets win a game is far too restrictive for most monotheistic systems. Then again, I don't expect to have a serious theological discussion at a baseball game.
2007-10-16 08:32:24
40.   Shaun P
Religion and politics is one thing. Religion and sports is another. Let them do as they wish, I plan on cheering for them all the same.

That said, as a devout progressive Catholic, this statement by their GM annoys the heck out of me:

"While praising their players, Rockies executives make clear they believe God has had a hand in the team's improvement.

"You look at things that have happened to us this year," O'Dowd says. "You look at some of the moves we made and didn't make. You look at some of the games we're winning. Those aren't just a coincidence. God has definitely had a hand in this.""

I sincerely doubt that. From both a faith-based viewpoint, and a logical one, it makes no sense. The Lord is above playing favorites. Why would He help just the Rockies, and not every team equally? Are they somehow better than the rest? And how does that explain Derek Jeter's many postseason triumphs? He's clearly been blessed by the Lord, despite, well - Something tells me that doesn't exactly fit in with what some Rockies are preaching.

Though I say, go Jeter!

2007-10-16 08:34:08
41.   dianagramr

ESPN2 was showing the final table of the World Series of Poker last night, and the eventual winner, a very spiritual man, was constantly asking g-d to show His miracles by allowing him to win the hand.

I found the intersection of religion and gambling (beyond the "Casino Night" at churches) a bit disconcerting.

2007-10-16 08:36:13
42.   mehmattski
39 "Then again, I don't expect to have a serious theological discussion at a baseball game."

Exactly. See 25 . When I go to a baseball game I want to see baseball, talk about baseball. To many people, for those three hours, that is the religion (c.f. Durham, Bull). When the game ends, I want to continue talking about baseball and what happened. I don't want to be whisked away to the real world just yet. That's really what bothers me the most, the timing, not the content. The retrospective articles about the Rockies being heavily into Christian teachings don't bother me as much as the player who invokes religion immediately following a sporting event.

You may be right that the reporter is at fault here too, as is the athlete who may not be articulate enough to break down what happened immediately, and falls back to cliches (religious or not). I think the world would be a lot better off if there weren't sideline reporters.

2007-10-16 08:37:53
43.   Dimelo
38 I guess I'm ignorant then. Isn't prison full of God fearing men and women? You know, really religious people that are now "born-again", should I take them seriously too? They might have killed some poor innocent soul, but they do worship the same God as Clint Barnes so that makes them a good person. Again, I'm the ignorant one.

People kill in the name of God and religion, people are apparently able to throw strikes, hit homeruns and steal bases because of some higher power (that we know as much about as the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus). But, I'm the ignorant one.....

I just think there's a place for faith and there's a place for sports, a baseball diamond is not your local place of worship. If someone is going to invoke the name of God, then I have every right to question that line of thinking. Sorry!

2007-10-16 08:38:54
44.   Rob Middletown CT
I just find it annoying. "I just want to thank God, my momma, and my manager for having faith in me..." puke

I'd like to think if there is a God, it's not spending it's time on sports. Actually, come to think of it, that might explain a few things...

2007-10-16 08:40:04
45.   mehmattski
43 Backs away slowly...

Umm... I think the Yankees should bring back Bernie next year!

2007-10-16 08:40:26
46.   NJYankee41
I think we have crossed the line between religion and baseball. Religion is a very touchy subject and I would rather not see this Yankee blog get taken over by this subject.
2007-10-16 08:41:25
47.   yankz
40 You're borderline preaching, and I'd rather not hear it. Thanks.

The Daily Show did an excellent segment called "Does God take side in sports?" featuring quotes from both Pistons and Heat players about how God was on their side.

2007-10-16 08:42:35
48.   williamnyy23
40 You are taking that statement literally and implying logic to a matter of faith. Perhaps O'Dowd is implying that faith is what allowed many players to continue to believe in themselves instead of give up when the season looked lost? You are inferring that O'Dowd means God has intervened in a physical way, when he very likely meant that in a spiritual way.

For that same reason, I think the argument in 34 is flawed. When one gives thanks, he is more likely giving praise for the blessings he feels has helped him achieve a goal…not for direct intercession.

41 And then, there are people who invoke faith as a knee jerk response to wanting something. Instead of determining whose faith is real, I prefer to tolerate everyone's right to express their beliefs and leave the genuineness to the being toward whom the prayers are directed.

2007-10-16 08:45:13
49.   williamnyy23
43 Wow...where to begin. Actually, I think your rambling speaks for itself, so I'll leave it at that.
2007-10-16 08:47:11
50.   OldYanksFan
22 Maybe you should ask Kevin Youkilis and every non-Christian ballplayer how they would feel about playing for the Rockies. Would you feel the same tolerance if they banded around 'Devil Worship' or Islamic principals?

This is a free country. Everyone of the Rockies players can, in their home, and in their Church, practice their Christianity as much as they like. However, I believe the Rockies main belief is baseball.

Since one of the most important founding principals of our country is the separation of Church and State, maybe the Rockies should practice that.

"..... outfielder Ryan Church, a devout Christian, made public conversations he had with the chaplain about an ex-girlfriend who was Jewish. Church told The Washington Post he had asked Jon Moeller whether Jews were "doomed" because they "don't believe in Jesus." Church said Moeller "nodded, like, that's what it meant."

Man, life is hard enough. I just hated being doomed too.

I can't read Dimelo's mind, but his post didn't sound like it was based in bigotry, but possibly on disgust... which I share.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-16 08:48:20
51.   mehmattski
Chien-Ming Wang to the Diamondbacks for Chris Carter... great trade, or greatest trade?
2007-10-16 08:49:04
52.   yankz
51 I'd have to consult the G-man...


2007-10-16 08:52:09
53.   OldYanksFan
24 "I worry... that the bottom's gonna fall out for the sinkerballer"

He has posted 2 excellent years in which he faced an unbalanced schedule of the AL East. That's a decent sample size. Is there any reason the bottom should start to fall out?

2007-10-16 08:53:54
54.   williamnyy23
50 If you read the article, there are many quotes what state the Rockies make it a priority to ensure that all people are tolerated and welcomed in the organization. Just because one expresses their religious faith doesn't mean they have to discriminate against others.

Yes. This is a free country. That's why Rockies players don't have to (and shouldn't have to) keep their faith at home or Church. They are free to express it in public and in their workplace. Again, I am not sure why one would be threatened by that freedom, other than they are intolerant of beliefs that are different from their own.

2007-10-16 08:54:49
55.   OldYanksFan
26 There is a BIG difference between individuals voicing their feeling and a TEAM institutionalizing it.
2007-10-16 08:59:18
56.   Dimelo
50 I can't read Dimelo's mind, but his post didn't sound like it was based in bigotry, but possibly on disgust... which I share. You have now become MY higher power; you have the gift to read my mind. Tell me to repent and accept you in my life, and I shall do as you say my Savior.
2007-10-16 08:59:30
57.   Shaun P
48 "Perhaps O'Dowd is implying that faith is what allowed many players to continue to believe in themselves instead of give up when the season looked lost?"

That's a great point. And I have no problem with that. But the intercession stuff - well, I just don't believe that God intercedes in such matters, directly or indirectly. But those are just my beliefs, and I don't feel like continuing the discussion right now, out of respect for yankz and NJYankee41 and anyone else who's saying, WTF?

47 Sorry, yankz. That stuff just really irks me. I will be quiet now on it.

51 Hey wait, isn't he (Chris Carter) a Red Sox now (via DC for Wily Mo)? I always imagined Jim Dean in heaven, spitting out his beer and throwing up his hands when he heard that news. Makes me smile. =)

2007-10-16 09:01:30
58.   Ken Arneson
48 I'm not saying that's what the player believes when he thanks God, nor am I saying that that is what the religion teaches. I'm saying that this is how it comes across.

Unless the gratefulness is very carefully phrased, it's easy for it to sound rude and disrespectful of both the efforts in the contest and the religious beliefs of the losing team.

Most athletes (and owners, apparently) are not that careful in their phrasing.

2007-10-16 09:03:25
59.   OldYanksFan
McGregor says, "But we truly do have something going on here. And (God's) using us in a powerful way."

"While praising their players, Rockies executives make clear they believe God has had a hand in the team's improvement."

Why is God "using" and "improving" the Rockies? Does God like the Rockies better then other baseball teams?

2007-10-16 09:03:58
60.   mehmattski
53 Looking at the stats, I suppose you're right, and the increase in K/BB bodes well for sustained success. My statement was probably due to a knee-jerk at his awful performance two weeks ago.

Still, Wang is the trading chip most likely to bring back a package that includes true position player prospects. This is an area, as Jim Dean used to point out, that Cashman needs improvement on. Here's the top position player "prospects" that Cashman has traded for in the last five years:

Alberto Gonzales
Drew Henson
Bubba Crosby
Wil Nieves

Anyway, with everyone else on the team under a NTC (Damon, Mussina, Matsui) or too indispensable (Cano), Wang and possibly Melky are the only chips that can be traded and expect equal value. Chris Carter and Matt Kemp have tremendous value, and if those trades are possible I would love to see them done.

2007-10-16 09:10:29
61.   Schteeve
In my opinion, the smartest thing Derek Jeter has ever done, is to not get married. As a single guy, he can bone whoever he wants, and noone can really give him shit about it. Brilliant move.
2007-10-16 09:11:02
62.   OldYanksFan
56 Sorry if I offended or spoke for you.
2007-10-16 09:11:12
63.   mehmattski
57 Ugh, I forgot about that. That is pretty disgusting, that Willie Mo = Chris Carter. Anyway, regardless of the player, I still believe that trading is the way to beef up the position prospects in the Yankees system so that, re: 21 , the Yankees' outstanding pitching prospects don't wane before the position players catch up.
2007-10-16 09:12:37
64.   NJYankee41
60 As 57 stated Carter is now a Red Sox farmhand. So that ain't happening. Besides, he sounds like another Giambi. As good as Giambi was, I don't want another one. I like Kemp, but I would want more.
2007-10-16 09:13:36
65.   NJYankee41
63 Oops. Should have refreshed.
2007-10-16 09:13:50
66.   williamnyy23
59 This will be my last post on the topic as well out of respect to those not interested, but once again, why shouldn't God "use" and "improve" the Rockies. Aren't te Rockies people worthy of being improved? Are they not worthy/capable of being strengthened by their faith? I am sure the team strongly believes that by encouraging faith-based initiatives, the character of the team has improved, which has not only created better people, but also better baseball players. I see nothing wrong with that notion. After all, even if God didn't exist, it is conceivable that belief could positively influence behavior.

If you can show me a quote saying something like "God picked up that flyball and carried it over the wall", I am going to give the Rockies the benefit of the doubt.

2007-10-16 09:13:54
67.   standuptriple
So if CLE does the deed in the LCS, will we have Jobu vs. God? Will Ken then have a "Diety Heavyweight Champion"?
2007-10-16 09:13:55
68.   Schteeve
28 Flawed logic. Steroids are a physical substance banned by the governing body of the sport. God is a faith based theoretical construct, neither provable or disprovable, and certainly not banned.
2007-10-16 09:15:37
69.   Dimelo
62 You're kidding, right? You didn't offend me at all. It was all tongue in cheek, lest you think you really are my savior. If yes, then why the hell didn't you bring the Yanks a championship this year?
2007-10-16 09:16:23
70.   Chyll Will
I don't have a problem with someone expressing their political or religious opinions or beliefs, as it is advantageous for me to know what you're thinking or proposing to think in a myriad of situations. However, I object to imposing on others' beliefs and vice-versa, especially when the imposition itself becomes the central focus of the action or discussion (i.e. the Crusades or jihad.)

And Ken made the best point so far; why would God be concerned about choosing someone else over me, especially if I considered myself God-fearing and devout? We're all sinners, so what difference does it make? Isn't that just a bit outside the big picture? >;)

2007-10-16 09:19:17
71.   monkeypants
59 Sheesh, you guys have a pathetic understanding of monotheism in a Judeo-Christian context. God, in this light, is all powerful and all knowing (and in a Christian sense) all loving--he does not "like" one team more than another. But, as the most powerul being in the universe with an infinite divine plan, it is perfectly consistent that God has brought it about that one team wins and the other does not. It's not about "liking" thye team better. Finally, it is perfectly consistent that God works through the Rockies, since (in this particular monotheistic context) he works through all creation.
2007-10-16 09:22:09
72.   51cq24
can we stop talking about religious crazies and start talking about baseball again?
2007-10-16 09:22:39
73.   monkeypants
70 Ken made a weak point vis-à-vis a monotheitic god. An all powerful being can at once care about all things great and small, big picture and small. It is the imperfect human mind that has trouble grasping this, and so attempts to impose its own limits and priorities on the infinite.

And with that, this is my last post on the topic, as I suspect that I am riding to the Rockies, defense (Crusading?) on very, very dead horse.

2007-10-16 09:23:08
74.   mehmattski
68 I too had my tongue planted in my cheek with that comment, but the logic isn't whether steroids are banned; rather, why they are banned. Because they give an unfair competitive advantage, right? Because it means that a player has influenced his performance beyond that of his "natural" talent, right? Well, how is that different than a player whose performance has been meddled with by a supernatural being? I'm not talking about players who believe they are being meddled with, which could indeed confer confidence and therefore better performance- that's still going with a player's natural talent. I'm talking about players who actually were chosen to perform beyond their natural talent by direct intervention from God. I think that should be banned; however, the test for it is about as reliable as that for HGH...
2007-10-16 09:23:57
75.   monkeypants
Oh my God--did you see Lo Hud's most recent post: apparently Mattingly never said that he would not serve as manager if asked. Let the games begin...
2007-10-16 09:25:46
76.   Ken Arneson
71 Understanding monotheism has nothing to do with it. The issue, to me, is that nobody, in these contexts, thanks God on behalf of both teams. It's always the winning team, and the winning team alone. And that's what's disrespectful.
2007-10-16 09:26:44
77.   Chyll Will
73 Cut and run?
2007-10-16 09:28:42
78.   RIYank
I guess I'm with Dimelo on this, now that everyone else has already decided to drop the topic. As to whether it's bigotry: in some sense, sure, all team loyalties are bigotry, I guess. Unreasoned attachment to a particular side... yeah, that's what being a fan is.
I don't even like the idea of a 'Christian team'. I don't like the idea of an atheist team, or a Jewish team, or whatever. They play baseball. I wouldn't stand for it if my employer or my colleagues told me what code of values we all stood for, and I don't see why a baseball team is any different.
2007-10-16 09:29:28
79.   mehmattski
I believe in the Church of Baseball. I've tried all the major religions, and most of the minor ones. I've worshipped Buddha, Allah, Brahma, Vishnu, Siva, trees, mushrooms, and Isadora Duncan. I know things. For instance, there are 108 beads in a Catholic rosary and there are 108 stitches in a baseball. When I heard that, I gave Jesus a chance. But it just didn't work out between us. The Lord laid too much guilt on me. I prefer metaphysics to theology. You see, there's no guilt in baseball, and it's never boring... which makes it like sex. There's never been a ballplayer slept with me who didn't have the best year of his career. Making love is like hitting a baseball: you just gotta relax and concentrate. Besides, I'd never sleep with a player hitting under .250... not unless he had a lot of RBIs and was a great glove man up the middle. You see, there's a certain amount of life wisdom I give these boys. I can expand their minds. Sometimes when I've got a ballplayer alone, I'll just read Emily Dickinson or Walt Whitman to him, and the guys are so sweet, they always stay and listen. 'Course, a guy'll listen to anything if he thinks it's foreplay. I make them feel confident, and they make me feel safe, and pretty. 'Course, what I give them lasts a lifetime; what they give me lasts 142 games. Sometimes it seems like a bad trade. But bad trades are part of baseball - now who can forget Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas, for God's sake? It's a long season and you gotta trust. I've tried 'em all, I really have, and the only church that truly feeds the soul, day in, day out, is the Church of Baseball.


2007-10-16 09:31:42
80.   Bama Yankee
76 Good point, Ken. While I believe it is okay for a person to give praise to God after a victory they should also give praise to him after a defeat.

I have always liked what the three Hebrew children said before they were about to be thrown into the fiery furnace. Paraphrasing, they said that God could deliver them from the furnace. But even if He chose not to, they wanted the king to know that they didn't believe in bowing down to his statue. They knew that God would be with them even in defeat.

I've always felt that praising God in victory is easy, praising Him in defeat is a little more difficult but should be done nonetheless.

2007-10-16 09:31:53
81.   mehmattski
75 And, via RAB, ESPN counters saying that the Star-Ledger's story is completely false:

2007-10-16 09:33:34
82.   Ken Arneson
OK, I'm done beating my horse, too. As for Mattingly, his agent denies the report that Mattingly doesn't want the job:

2007-10-16 09:34:05
83.   Ken Arneson
81 D'oh! That's three days in a row that's happened to me.
2007-10-16 09:34:25
84.   standuptriple
So what we're hearing/reading is that while the Sox and Indians are battling it out in the ALCS, the Yankees are still making headlines. Bravo, King George. Bra-Vo.
2007-10-16 09:34:31
85.   mehmattski
81 Also I can't read correctly. Serves me right for debating religion in sports while at the same time writing a paper about evolutionary biology...
2007-10-16 09:38:50
86.   OldYanksFan
69 Not enough prayer, and too much 'sowing of seed' (see Jeter, Derek).

66 "why shouldn't God "use" and "improve" the Rockies..."

My last word. Why should God improve the Rookies MORE THEN ANY OTHER TEAM? If you believe God is on YOUR side, doesn't that mean he's (she's) not qually on other peoples side (team)?.

You see.... we, anyone could argue this until the end of time. You will not change my feelings and I will not change yours. Maybe that's why there is such tremendous wisdom in the edict of "The separation of Church and State".

33 ".. no different then deciding to root against a team because they have too many black/latino/jewish players."
Way off topic. the people upset over this are NOT upset because individual Rockies are Christians. This has nothing to do with the individuals. It is about institutionalizing it in the organization. I have no problem with 30 people individually saying "believe". I do have a problem with one person saying "We believe".

Get it? When we separate these 2 things, we don't have to have impossible, unsolvable, unproveable discussions about the nature of God.

2007-10-16 09:45:21
87.   51cq24
i gotta say though, learning that victor martinez's favorite tv show is curb your enthusiasm made me like him a hell of a lot more. that's kind of a religion.
2007-10-16 09:45:56
88.   OldYanksFan
84 Ya know, I wondered if George did all this just to have some Post Season headlines. It would be devilishly smart. I'm not sure George is still that sharp, although I have no doubt he would be happy to throw Torre under the bus if he was.

Curious that just now we are having the Steinbrenner changing of the guard. Maybe when the WS starts we could have another DWI or divorce? How about a sex scandle? Maybe one with ARod in it! Maybe a Ménage à trois between Big Stein, ARod and Jessica Biel!!!!

2007-10-16 09:46:24
89.   Zack
I think that article on DJ just confirms what we've already known about his, um, "preference."
2007-10-16 09:47:14
90.   williamnyy23
72 As much as I would like to let the issue drop, this post is another example of bigotry. Maybe I am in the minority here, but does everyone else feel comfortable with calling people who express their faith crazy? I sincerely hope this is a forum free of bigotry. While it is sensible to debate the extent to which public figures express their faith, it should be totally unacceptable to ridicule them for it.
2007-10-16 09:50:01
91.   NJYankee41
87 Hahaha. Amen!
2007-10-16 09:51:21
92.   williamnyy23
76 I've heard losing teams preface their interviews with giving thanks to God. I think you need to get past the notion that one team is thanking God for the other's failure, and consider that both participants are thanking God for the talent and opportunity to compete.
2007-10-16 09:53:27
93.   monkeypants
90 I think that was sarcasm. But in general, I agree with you.
2007-10-16 09:54:06
94.   Ken Arneson
90 Agreed, namecalling is inappropriate. 51cq24, I will refer you to the first item in the Baseball Toaster FAQ:

2007-10-16 09:56:52
95.   Ken Arneson
92 I know that's what they mean. But that's not what they say, which is my point. It's a matter of politeness, not religion.
2007-10-16 09:57:05
96.   Sarasota
89 .....certainly entertaining, the piece in the Post is known in the business as a "plant".
2007-10-16 09:58:49
97.   Count Zero
Speaking of about we just drop the topic entirely...thus ensuring no one's feelings will get hurt.

Last time I checked, most of us didn't come here to discuss religion...I save that and politics for other forums.

2007-10-16 10:01:45
98.   williamnyy23
86 I am not trying to convince you of anything, nor am I promoting a belief. My concern is with the bigotry expressed in several posts. I would hope most here would agree that bigotry on the basis of one's faith is ignorance.
2007-10-16 10:02:37
99.   51cq24
90 93 yes, something like sarcasm. i don't expect anything of baseball players- reason, intelligence, etc- short of athletic ability. and i don't care whether they think god or anyone else is responsible for that ability.

94 not sure if this is sarcasm too, but just to be clear, i was not referring to anyone here.

2007-10-16 10:04:45
100.   Dimelo
90 What should we call people that talk to people that don't exist? The Son of Sam thought his dog was talking to him, he was considered crazy. David Koresh thought he was the son of God, he was considered crazy. I never quite get why people get mad when you consider that behavior crazy - talking to someone whom you don't know if they are listening and whether they can even grant you what you want.

I know, I ignorant. I just buried my uncle and I remember being in a sermon where the priest gets up and says: that we (the family) know where my Uncle was (implying least I hope or do I even care?), he was with God because he was a believer, unlike non-believers which have yet to accept God into their lives.
I was floored when I heard that and I had to ask people in my family if they weren't bothered by that. I know I was bothered. I hate how a line is drawn in the sand and they are in the paradiso while I burn in the inferno. How do they even know that? But yet they believe that crap till the cow's come home.

I consider that line of thinking CRAZY. Just like I consider the line of thinking by the Rockies GM CRAZY.

My biggest beef with Religion is that even during the hardest of times, they are always recruiting. The religious right getting on their soapbox and saying that God sent Katrina to New Orleans because it was such an immoral city. How could any person of sound mind and body not consider that crazy?

BTW, Are their better GM's than priests? Maybe Big Stein should hire a priest, they seem to be really good in that recruiting thing.

86 You just make too much sense.

87 I loved that about Victor too. Not only that, there's the language barier and him not being fluent in English. That's pretty cool that he can get into that show.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-16 10:05:06
101.   51cq24
98 i don't think that's true. it's one thing to not like a certain religion. it's another to question religion as a whole. and when you tell those who do question religion as a whole that they're just bigots, it reinforces their (our) belief that religious people want nothing questioned. it isn't bigotry to distrust religion. it's quite reasonable.
2007-10-16 10:08:43
102.   YankeeInMichigan
a) Monkeypants on monotheism: Right on the mark.
b) The Colorado Rockies are a private organization, so church/state separation has nothing to do with it.
c) The Colorado Rockies, as an equal opportunity employer, should not create a work environment that is exclusive to non-Christians. Now there is a fine line here. Just like teams have dress codes and grooming codes, the Rockies may certainly restrict reading material and institute other safeguards of moral conduct. Denominational symbols in public areas of the clubhouse or denominational pre-game prayers would clearly be out-of-line. The GM's statements are borderline.
2007-10-16 10:12:19
103.   NJYankee41
97 I agree. It is inevitable that this will continue to get uglier and uglier. I come here to get away from this kind of stuff.
2007-10-16 10:18:02
104.   Count Zero
Sooooo...who wants to get into a pool? Pick the date and time a JT announcement is issued (positive or negative).

I'll take Wednesday, October 17th at 3:15 pm Eastern. ^_^

2007-10-16 10:21:23
105.   Shaun P
104 The official announcement, or the inevitable leak?
2007-10-16 10:24:37
106.   williamnyy23
101 One can question other's beliefs without resorting to name calling. That's where bigotry comes in, and that's where several posts have headed.

103 Agreed...back to baseball.

2007-10-16 10:24:53
107.   JL25and3
I agree with OldYanksFan. I have no objection at all to a player expressing his personal religious beliefs. I have more of a problem with a Christian organization, even if they agree to "tolerate" those who are doomed to eternal damnation.

It's OK, we'll let you play for us, even if you are a Jew.

2007-10-16 10:27:40
108.   mehmattski
I only want Donnie as manager if he agrees to grow back his mustache.
2007-10-16 10:28:42
109.   Count Zero
105 Official press conference -- scheduled time.
2007-10-16 10:29:30
110.   Zack
108 And the sideburns, of course...
2007-10-16 10:30:12
111.   NJYankee41
109 Thursday 2:00pm
2007-10-16 10:30:50
112.   mehmattski
I mean, who would you rather have as the face of your team:


No question in my mind.

2007-10-16 10:33:40
113.   JL25and3
89 I completely agree, I thought it was incredibly obvious.
2007-10-16 10:39:09
114.   Chyll Will
112 I'd rather he went with the Michael Corleone look; he could still pull it off:

2007-10-16 10:42:28
115.   OldYanksFan
Quick vote please: Mazzone... Yea or Nay
2007-10-16 10:44:07
116.   mehmattski
114 "And Converse. The shoes he wears every time he makes a hit."

Of course, every time he makes an out (441 times in 1985), he's wearing Crocs. Or Uggs.

2007-10-16 10:45:06
117.   mehmattski
115 Nay. If I were the pitching coach of Smoltz, Glavine, and Maddux, I'd look like a genius too.
2007-10-16 10:45:32
118.   standuptriple
It will happen A) the day after the LCS is over or B) the day after the World Series is over.
2007-10-16 10:50:12
119.   Yankee Fan In Boston
wow. i saw the number of comments and assumed that a decision had already leaked.

my guess on an announcement is tomorrow at 2 PM.

2007-10-16 10:50:14
120.   Count Zero
115 Nay. Eiland -- do it for the kids.
2007-10-16 10:50:19
121.   ms october
114 Nice. But just imagine if he had the mustache and sideburns too.

Press conference - Wednesday 3:00pm.

I know many people are ready to move on and am sorry to continue the discussion, but I have been away from the computer and I wanted to state there was no bigotry intended in post my post's 19 statement I may not be as inclined to root for the Rockies. I read another article about the Christian influence on the Rockies and someone affiliated with the team (sorry I cannot remember who)indicated that they wanted good character people and that is why they are building a Christian team. That is my problem - the implication that people who do not have certain Christian values are not of good character.

2007-10-16 10:51:57
122.   Shaun P
109 Well, first I was going to guess Thursday, 2 PM Eastern - but that's gone 111 . Then I was going to guess the morning after the ALCS ends - but that's gone 118 . I will take Friday at 1 PM Eastern.

115 Nay. I'm not convinced he can work with "kids". Need more data!

2007-10-16 10:56:00
123.   Bama Yankee
116 Maybe it should have said:
"And Converse. The shoes he wears until Nike offers him more money..."

I remember back in college having a hard time finding some of those black Converse cleats for softball. I was glad that Mattingly changed over to Nike since they were easier to find. Not that I fall for all that advertising/marketing stuff or anything... I just wanted some new cleats... ;-)

2007-10-16 11:06:30
124.   JL25and3
117 More interesting is the number of journeymen who had improbably terrific seasons when they went to Atlanta.

But I agree with 122 , I don't see much of a record in developing young pitchers. I'm particularly concerned about the example of Steve Avery, who averaged 220 IP from age 21-23, and then was basically shot. And who else is there - Kevin Millwood? Mark Wohlers? John Rocker?

2007-10-16 11:12:08
125.   ms october
120 I'm with you on Eiland. We need to stop chasing big names that may or may not be "washed up" or over-hyped as coaches just as much with players.
2007-10-16 11:14:15
126.   mehmattski
The problem with promoting Eiland to major league pitching coach is that someone will have to replace Eiland, and he is still very much need to mentor the Humberto Sanchez/Alan Horne/Dellin Betences group.

I vote for Kerrigan. He's still on the staff, right?

2007-10-16 11:21:04
127.   Zack
113 Amazed no one else really picked it up. The article just screamed it!
2007-10-16 11:24:27
128.   Count Zero
126 A valid argument against, and the only one I put stock in.

OTOH, you could say: What's more important -- prospects or the half-dozen kids who are going to be on the MLB roster?

Also, I'm not a big Kerrigan fan, although I admit I might be biased due to his short stint as manager of the Sox.

2007-10-16 11:32:29
129.   Count Zero
127 et. al.

Suspected it for one very simple heterosexual man in his right mind would kick Jessica Alba to the's just not possible!

Even if she was the stupidest, most demanding, high-maintenance bitch you ever met. Not until after several years of putting up with it, anyway. ;-)

2007-10-16 11:37:26
130.   Yankee Fan In Boston
126 128 what about nardi contreras?

129 i didn't read the article, but didn't jeter go from jessica alba to scarlett johannson in the same week?

sorry. i'm usually not one to take note of this kind of gossip stuff, but that is something right there.

2007-10-16 11:37:48
131.   Shaun P
126 Eiland, IIRC, was with Hughes in AA in 2006, and then moved up with him to AAA in 2007. So there was someone else who worked with Joba and Ian at A, and AA. Why can't the current AA coach (who's also worked with Horne and Marquez) take Eiland's spot at AAA?
2007-10-16 11:50:39
132.   Marty
Interesting to see a religious argument here, since as a Dodger fan, I always considered the Yankees to be Satan's team :)
2007-10-16 11:51:39
133.   Yankee Fan In Boston
132 i always considered the dodgers to be brooklyn's team.
2007-10-16 11:55:07
134.   Bama Yankee
133 Well played!!11!!one one shift one
2007-10-16 12:08:23
135.   Yankee Fan In Boston
134 not really. i felt a pang of guilt as i hit the submit button.
2007-10-16 13:00:24
136.   Marty
Hey, if I'm going to be tweaking Yankee fans, I better be able to take it :)
2007-10-16 13:12:09
137.   Yankee Fan In Boston
136 maybe, but the whole brooklyn exodus should have been off limits. tasteless. i am ashamed of myself.
2007-10-16 13:19:56
138.   yankz
Um, you all did read that two hot women left Jeter's apartment in the morning, right? Something tells me that "sleepover" was a little different than the ones he had with Arod.
2007-10-16 13:20:27
139.   yankz
133 I always considered the Yankees to be a playoff team.
2007-10-16 13:41:23
140.   tommyl
138 Yeah, you know its a slow news day when the story is: Hey, Jeter is single and hot women like him!

What's next? Roger Clemens spotted in Texas! Andy Pettite spotted in church!

2007-10-16 13:43:55
141.   Yankee Fan In Boston
140 psst... try not to mention urch-chay.
2007-10-16 13:48:19
142.   yankz
140 Farnsworth involved in bar brawl.
2007-10-16 13:52:15
143.   Yankee Fan In Boston
142 i'll take care of the inevitable:
matsui watches adult film, and enjoys it. (a lot.)
2007-10-16 13:52:37
144.   tommyl
142 Nation still unaware of identity of Karim Garcia!

Paul O'Neil knocks over a water cooler!

Kei Igawa misses game while waiting on line for Halo 3 to release!

2007-10-16 13:54:15
145.   Yankee Fan In Boston
144 carl pavano injures his shoulder while fluffing his pillow.
2007-10-16 13:56:13
146.   Yankee Fan In Boston
144 jorge posada uses mens' room, neglects to wash hands.
2007-10-16 14:00:23
147.   domvjr
According to M & the Mad Dog! Tampa meeting adjourned for the day, no decisions made. Will continue tomorrow. To borrow from Steve Goldman, Torre Held Hostage, day 237 still in effect.
2007-10-16 14:04:00
148.   tommyl
145 146 Very nice. This is fun, and as productive as anything else we've been arguing about. More?
2007-10-16 14:06:31
149.   tommyl
Tony Womack and Terrence Long still starting!
2007-10-16 14:06:51
150.   tommyl
Brian Bruney puts out ad for lost strike zone!
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-16 14:13:06
151.   Bama Yankee
Mike Mussina finishes crossword puzzle!
2007-10-16 14:18:19
152.   Bama Yankee
John Sterling misses homerun call!
2007-10-16 14:21:02
153.   Maniakes
Roger Clemens considers retirement!

Doug Mientkiewicz wins spelling bee!

Michael Kay is very excited!

2007-10-16 14:38:07
154.   yankz
Kevin Brown punches wall because someone had put his cell phone in the ceiling.
2007-10-16 14:46:35
155.   tommyl
154 We might have a winner...

Ruben Sierra strikes out!

Joe Torre drinks green tea!

2007-10-16 14:55:01
156.   Bama Yankee
Eric Gagne gives up runs!

Manny loses focus!

Kevin Youkilis finds food in goatee!

David Ortiz eats food from Youk's goatee!

2007-10-16 14:56:19
157.   ny2ca2dc
Mike Mussina finds fastball!
2007-10-16 15:52:51
158.   Chyll Will
Suzyn Waldman cries for Eva Perron!

John Sterling accuses her of being mortal!

E$%& discovers loophole to automatically declare Boston Red Sox World Series Champions for next decade!

2007-10-16 16:49:03
159.   Chyll Will
(cricket, cricket...)
2007-10-16 17:09:16
160.   RIYank
159 I think maybe a few people will be hanging out over at Cardboard Gods.

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