Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
One Down, One To Go
2007-09-25 22:06
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

The Indians beat the Mariners 4-3 in 12 innings last night, eliminating Seattle from the playoffs. That was as close as the Yankees would get to a clincher, however, as the Tigers stomped the Twins 8-0 and the Yanks lost another extra inning contest.

Kei Igawa pitched as well as could have been reasonably expected, holding the Devil Rays scoreless over five innings. It wasn't pretty, Igawa walked five and had to get out of a second-and-third one-out jam in the first (he did so by striking out B.J. Upton and Delmon Young, Kei's only two Ks of the night), and two-out bases loaded jam in the third, but he only allowed two hits, both singles.

The Yanks got on the board right away against Jason Hammel with a Johnny Damon single, stolen base, and a Derek Jeter double. Alex Rodriguez then padded the lead with a grand slam in the third, which pushed him past 150 RBIs on the season. Edwar Ramirez and Brian Bruney gave it all back plus one in the sixth, however, as Ramirez walked Upton, gave up an RBI double to Dioner Navarro, then walked Jonny Gomes. Bruney then entered with one out, walked Greg Norton to load the bases, and struck out Josh Wilson on three pitches. With two out and the bags packed with the tying runs, Bruney walked Akinori Iwamura on five pitches to push the second Tampa run across, then gave up a batting practice grand slam to that man I warned you all about, 32-year-old minor league lifer Jorge Velandia. Velandia, who is on his seventh cup of coffee, had never hit a home run in the major leagues before.

Ron Villone and Chris Britton held things down from there as the Yankees plated a leadoff double by Jorge Posada in the eighth to tie the game at 6-6. Then Joe Torre started a parade of scary relievers. Kyle Farnsworth, working from the windup for the second straight appearance, aced the eighth. Jose Veras, showing a nifty curve, pitched around a walk in the ninth. Jeff Karstens . . . not so much. Karstens first two pitches to tenth-inning leadoff hitter Dioner Navarro were balls. The third was a meatball. Home run to right. Rays win 7-6.

Comments (68)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-09-26 04:49:23
1.   williamnyy23
Here's hoping Joe tries to win this one. As amusing as it was to read some defend Torre's afwul managing last night (try to win a game when you are up 5-0 and can clinch a playoff spot? What, me worry?), I'd like to wrap this one up asap.
2007-09-26 04:56:53
2.   williamnyy23
Interesting take on No finishing below Boston, the Yankees will draft ahead of them next year.
2007-09-26 05:09:42
3.   Mattpat11
I've calmed down. I still see no legitimate reason for Jeff Karstens
2007-09-26 05:12:31
4.   williamnyy23
3 Jeff Karstens...professional innings eater? One would think that judging by Britton's waist line, he could eat way more innings, but maybe Torre has him on a low IP diet?
2007-09-26 05:14:59
5.   Knuckles
I think there's a number of benefits to not catching Boston this late in the game, it's an interesting pro and con, but reaching a moot point anyways...

-There would have been a psych factor of having overcome a 14.5 game deficit, but given that we beat Boston 5 of 6 down the stretch, and won the season series, I'd say the Sox are already wary of NY.

-Resting our more tired veterans (and youngsters).

-Playing Cleveland rather than the LAA of A is going to be a relative boon, given the disparities in our play against the two teams this year, and in the recent past.

-Also, not having to travel to the West Coast once or twice will pay off.

-And like NoMaas says, that the draft philosophies of teams like NYY/BOS/DET have become "take a flier on this guy b/c we have the money", it is helpful to be able to draft ahead of similar organizations when there are only a few of these gambles in the late 1st round.

2007-09-26 05:17:12
6.   Mattpat11
4 I was looking at karstens gamelog last night.

I forget the details, but I think he's been asked to pitch all three outs in a half inning 13 times. Eight of those times he's given up at least a run a long the way. Usually more than that.

One would think an "innings eater" could get people out. Karstens fails to meet those requirements.

2007-09-26 05:19:04
7.   yankz
Someone else want to respond to 3 and 4 . Oh wait, WE ALL ALREADY HAVE. In the last damn thread. Good grief. Ken, any chance you're working on an "ignore" feature?
2007-09-26 05:21:44
8.   spufi2007
So, guys, tell me who the 11-man pitching staff will be for the postseason....we don't want Villone, Farmaduke, Bruney, Ed-warrior, et al on the roster, but really there is no choice but to include one or more of them:

Locks for the roster:
Clemens (guarantee that he will pull one of those 2-inning, 3 run outings, ow my hammy hurts I have to leave now games in the playoffs)

Two spots left....Villone? Britton? I'm assuming Torre is going to have Farmaduke on the roster given he's had TWO CONSECUTIVE SCORELESS OUTINGS OH MY GOD I CAN'T BELIEVE IT HE'S GOT A LASER ROCKET ARM!

2007-09-26 05:22:12
9.   Mattpat11
7 You say he's here to eat innings. He's ridiculously ineffective at that. He's nothing more than a warm body. And warm bodies lose games.
2007-09-26 05:23:04
10.   Mattpat11
8 Sean Henn and Matt DeSalvo. They can eat innings.
2007-09-26 05:23:47
11.   williamnyy23
7 Use a self imposed ignore. I know I try as much as possible to ignore your comments, and would happily welcome you do the same with mine.
2007-09-26 05:24:12
12.   yankz
9 Did you see me responding to your comment? No. I think you haven't your stance at all since last night, and if you read my half dozen comments there, you'll see I think you're being asinine. Unlike you, I'm not going to repeat exactly what I said last night.
2007-09-26 05:25:02
13.   williamnyy23
8 I'd rather bring an extra pinch runner than overload with guys like Bruney or Veras.
2007-09-26 05:25:53
14.   Knuckles
Lighten up, Francis...Not all of us follow every game thread religiously, so what might be re-hashing of a situation that drove you nuts last night is other people's first opportunity to ask the questions and discuss.
2007-09-26 05:29:11
15.   Mattpat11
12 And I said your theory holds no water because none of these men are good enough to effectively spell the good relievers.

To eat innings, by its very definition, you have to be able to get outs.

2007-09-26 05:30:59
16.   Mattpat11
13 I'd rather a nice ottoman in the dugout than Bruney or Veras.
2007-09-26 05:33:10
17.   williamnyy23
8 Regardless of whom they choose, I hope the basis is a lot more than a 2-3 inning sample size recorded during the last week of the season. Shouldn't there be a more scientific approach than that?
2007-09-26 05:36:50
18.   Mattpat11
17 I'd like to hope that Jeff Karstens wasn't seriously being considered for a playoff spot before last night
2007-09-26 06:03:08
19.   Mattpat11
Lets just beat Lovey Howell and get it over with
2007-09-26 06:38:54
20.   rsmith51
8 Who will be the 14th position player? The Attorney General? A pinch runner, I suppose.



2007-09-26 06:49:53
21.   Count Zero
The one person I definitely do not want to see on the PS roster is Bruney. I said it on RAB after his dismal performance last week -- I never want to see this guy pitching in pinstripes again. It doesn't matter what kind of "stuff" he has -- he has absolutely no command of his fastball.

He recalls to mind the scene in Bull Durham where Crash gives Meat the ball outside the bar and tells him to throw it at him as hard as he can. I would take that bet with Bruney -- he would miss me. He has no idea where the ball is going to go when it leaves his hand.

2007-09-26 07:10:24
22.   RIYank
I'd have to agree about Bruney. I remember when I thought he was promising. He's no longer promising.

There's something to be said for an extra position player, mainly for the prospect of playing in the World Series. But all things considered, I think I'd add Britton. His sample size is small, but he's been better against lefties than Villone has.

2007-09-26 07:18:07
23.   RIYank
The more I think about it, the less sense it makes to bring a 14th position player.

Pinch Hitters: who are we going to pinch hit for? Not Jeter or Cano, so no reason to bring the AG. Maybe for Melky, but if push comes to shove (appropriately enough) Shelley can fill in -- he's not good, but an inning or two of OF defense upgrade isn't worth the roster spot. Molina, sure, but then you'd just use Posada as the PH (and in any case Molina is unlikely to start a play-off game).

Pinch Runners: probably use them for one of our catchers or first basemen. But there's no third catcher to bring, and we have plenty of guys who can play 1B already.

World Series: clearly this is the spot where you'd want to have an army of good PH on the bench. With the roster so far, we'd have Duncan and probably Matsui or Damon, I guess -- assuming Giambi plays first, otherwise add him to the army. It would be nice to have another power hitter available, but there aren't any to bring so again, I can't see using the roster spot.

2007-09-26 07:27:59
24.   RIYank

I get it. 14 position players means 11 pitchers. We shouldn't bring 12 pitchers. So we do need some kind of specialist or other.

I guess I'd go with Sardinha. The chance of anyone else (I can think of) actually increasing our win expectancy is awfully small. There are reasonably likely scenarios where you'd like a top-notch base runner.

2007-09-26 07:27:59
25.   RIYank

I get it. 14 position players means 11 pitchers. We shouldn't bring 12 pitchers. So we do need some kind of specialist or other.

I guess I'd go with Sardinha. The chance of anyone else (I can think of) actually increasing our win expectancy is awfully small. There are reasonably likely scenarios where you'd like a top-notch base runner.

2007-09-26 07:28:10
26.   RIYank
2007-09-26 07:30:51
27.   Sliced Bread
14th position player is a no-brainer:
Ali Larter, no question about it.
2007-09-26 07:33:01
28.   pistolpete
14 Actually, it's the same people from last night rehashing it this morning. ;-)
2007-09-26 07:35:00
29.   pistolpete
24 Did Sardhina even get called up in time to make the PS roster?
2007-09-26 07:36:26
30.   RIYank
29 Hm. I was assuming so. What's the rule?
2007-09-26 07:51:09
31.   pistolpete
September 1st, no? Is there someplace to look up who got called up when?

By the way, if someone tells me it's in the sidebar of this very site, please excuse my ignorance.

2007-09-26 07:51:20
32.   Shaun P
29 30 Doesn't matter. The K-Rod loophole from '02 is still wide open. Bronson could always be Phillips' replacement.
2007-09-26 07:57:22
33.   RIYank
I checked Baseball Reference (you can get the game logs there). His first appearance was Sept 15th.

But I guess Shaun P has found him a loophole. (Loofole. Hee hee.)

2007-09-26 08:02:50
34.   standuptriple
Ugh. Was listening on the XM when they were up 5-0. With Igawa on the bump. Should have been locked up. I'm glad I didn't tune in when I got home. Nivarro is making it all to known that he intends to pester the Yankees from TB. Jim Dean would not have been pleased.
I did see that EDSP went head-hunting on Holliday. Some things never change.
2007-09-26 08:02:53
35.   Maniakes

The rule is that you have to be on the 25 man roster or the DL on August 31, or you need to be on the 40 man roster and brought in as an injury replacement for a PS-eligable player.

For the Yankees, that's Aug 31 roster:


Pavano (or another pitcher to replace him)
Sanchez (or another pitcher to replace him)

2007-09-26 08:05:34
36.   Shaun P
33 Aw shucks, don't give me the credit. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere (Bronson in for Andy), and I'm almost positive Cliff mentioned the K-Rod loophole in his "Postseason Roster Preview" post a few days ago.

Yep, here's what Cliff wrote:

"while the presence of Darrel Rasner and Carl Pavano on the DL should allow Ohlendorf to be added via the K-Rod loophole."

Love that K-Rod loophole! Even if it screwed the Yanks over in '02.

2007-09-26 08:08:40
37.   bp1
Giambino is getting almost NO ab's lately. I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from that. Are they testing him as a pinch hitter? Are they still auditioning Minky?

If the past couple weeks are any indication, Dougie is starting at 1st, Damon in left, and Matsui as DH. Giambi rides the pine with Wilson! and Duncan.

Wow. Giambi is one heck of a highly paid pinch hitter.

2007-09-26 08:09:06
38.   yankz
27 Hayden Panettiere.
2007-09-26 08:09:23
39.   Shaun P
35 Except you don't need to be on the 40-man roster - you just have to be in the organization. That is exactly what the K-Rod loophole is - he wasn't on the Angels' 40-man roster as of 8/31/02, but he was still used to replace a pitcher who was on the 60-day DL.
2007-09-26 08:10:54
40.   Sliced Bread
38 Excellent call. As long as she's over 18, Hayden qualifies for a position on the New York Yankees postseason roster.
2007-09-26 08:16:33
41.   yankz
40 Would a catching joke be too inappropriate?
2007-09-26 08:44:35
42.   jedi
8 Isn't Kennedy ruled out of the roster for the first round of the playoffs? I remember hearing that they dont want to risk anything with his back and he won't be available until the ALCS if anything. So that leaves another pitcher spot open.
2007-09-26 09:16:30
43.   williamnyy23
39 Also, the change has to be pitcher for pitcher or player for player.

35 DM is back on the qactive roster, but Andy Phillips is on the DL, so he'd be the conduit needed to get a PR'er on the team.

2007-09-26 09:33:30
44.   Zack
DOn't know if that was already raised, but the St. Paul pioneer Press, fwiw, had this to say:
The Twins don't have to trade Cy Young Award winner Johan Santana this winter, but they are expected to shop the left-handed pitcher who can become a free agent after next season. There will be more of a market for Santana, 28, this winter than next July before the trade deadline. The Mets, run by Omar Minaya, remain the strong favorite to acquire him if he leaves."

Not sure why the Muts would be front runner besides the fact that the desperately need him. I don't think they could come close to matching other team's offers. No idea how legit the article is, but fyi...

2007-09-26 09:34:39
45.   Nick from Washington Heights
I don't often comment here, so sorry for the interruption but I was kind of ticked off at NoMaas after reading that they counted last night's game as a Torre loss. I mean, they're right that Mo should be in.. Blah blah, but weren't the two players most culpable for the loss pitchers they touted this season? Edwar and Brian pretty much lost this game. Not Torre. I say it's a NoMaas loss.
2007-09-26 09:34:50
46.   Bama Yankee
Off topic:
Watching Prince Fielder club his 50th homer last night reminded me of one thing... I'm gettin' old.

Back in 1990, I was laid up in a hospital bed recovering from ACL reconstruction surgery when a friend came by to visit and told me that I had missed Cecil Fielder hitting #50 & #51 while I had been under the knife.

Remember the days when 50 homers were an anomaly (it had been 13 years since the last one and 12 years before that)? Now, it has happened every full season except one (2003) during the last 12 years.

Also, that 1990 season saw the Yanks finish at 67-95 (21 games behind Boston). Yankee fans who can only remember the last dozen years should really appreciate the run we are on. Sometimes, I think Yankee fans take winning for granted. Unfortunately, like I discovered during that ACL rehab, sometimes you don't appreciate things (like being able to run) until after they're gone. Let's hope that our success and our 50 homer guy both stay with us for a long, long time.

2007-09-26 09:35:19
47.   williamnyy23
44 Ironically, the Yankees are at the biggest disadvantage in the Johan sweepstakes because they have the most offer. Minnesota can not come trade Santana to the Yankees without prying away Hughes or Chamberlain. If both remain untouchable, then Johan will go elsewhere.
2007-09-26 09:42:50
48.   Max
34 I liked Scotty because I felt like he was one of the few pitchers that would really stand up for the players. But is he really a head-hunter? Has his time with the Dodgers been filled with these kinds of incidents?

According to the Denver Post, he called Holliday to apologize. Doesn't sound like the sort of thing Clemens or Pedro would do. I also still maintain that he wasn't trying to hit drama queen Youkilis in the head.

2007-09-26 09:47:31
49.   williamnyy23
48 Don't you know?...the Yankees hate poor Youkilis, even though he plays the game the right way.
2007-09-26 09:53:22
50.   Maniakes
43 Doug M. is active now, but his eligibility for the postseason is based on his status on August 31, when he was on the DL.

You are correct that we can sub an otherwise-ineligable position player for Phillips -- I'd forgotten he was hurt.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-09-26 10:20:14
51.   williamnyy23
50 You can only sub for players who are on the DL as of the end of the season. The eligibility cut off is August 31, but for a player to be a conduit, he must remain on the DL. Doug M. is currently occupying the loophole his injury created.
2007-09-26 10:23:11
52.   pistolpete
46 Did hear the quote where Prince said he didn't care about anything save for beating his Dad's HR total, just so he could 'shut him up'...?

So sad when father/son relationships go sour.

2007-09-26 10:24:13
53.   rsmith51
Santana faces Detroit, Wang faces TB, hopefully things go as expected.
2007-09-26 10:32:28
54.   Yankee Fan In Boston
46 52 focus on the good times.

2007-09-26 10:32:32
55.   Shaun P
43 Actually, if you click on the link in 35 to Pete's blog, and then click through to the link he has, you'll find out that the "position player for position player" and "pitcher for pitcher" distinction has also been removed.

44 A quick analysis of Minnesota's payroll obligations shows that they could easily afford to sign Santana to even a $25M/year contract and only have to increase payroll about $10-$15M beyond where it is now (~$72M) - and that includes paying to keep both Morneau and Nathan. With all the young pitching, and some of the young position players, they have, it could be easy. And then they have a new stadium (and all its extra revenue goodness) opening in a couple of years, which helps even more.

For some reason, no one in the MSM ever mentions this. I'm not even sure if the Twins' blogosphere (Gleeman et al) knows it. But the numbers are all there on Cot's.

2007-09-26 10:34:02
56.   pistolpete
52 Should be 'Did anyone hear'...
2007-09-26 10:36:56
57.   williamnyy23
55 Thanks...I also didn't realize you can now make in series subs. That really has the potential to be abused. Who is going to verify injuries?

As for Minnesota, they are opening up a publicly subsidized stadium in 2009. There owner is also a multi-billionaire. They can definitely afford to keep Santana, but that doesn't mean they will.

2007-09-26 10:38:00
58.   williamnyy23
57 "Their" owner.
2007-09-26 10:52:03
59.   pistolpete
57 Must be frustrating as hell to be a Twins fan - seems like every time they get close, one or more of their star players blows up and needs to get paid.

The Twins, of course, trade the guy for prospects and start the whole merry-go-round over again.

2007-09-26 10:53:51
60.   JL25and3
Where does it say you can make in-series subs? Did they repeal the Mike Andrews rule?

And if I read Pete Abe correctly, Phillips can't be replaced because he wasn't on the DL on 8/31.

2007-09-26 10:54:32
61.   Mike T
44 I don't think they could come close to matching other team's offers.

Why wouldn't the Mets be able to approach other teams' offers for Santana? Don't they have some money to spend over there?

2007-09-26 10:55:24
62.   JL25and3
The Twins got an incredible sweetheart deal on their new stadium - basically, Hennepin County's picking up the tab and the Twins get to keep virtually all of the revenue. Even if it's a couple of years away, there's no excuse for their not signing Santana.
2007-09-26 11:01:01
63.   Bama Yankee
52 Yeah, I did hear that. It is truly sad indeed. As I mentioned in that post 46 sometimes you don't truly appreciate something until it's gone... that can also apply to your dad. Unfortunately, that's another lesson I had to learn the hard way.
2007-09-26 11:01:26
64.   williamnyy23
60 In the link mentioned in 35 .
2007-09-26 11:03:56
65.   williamnyy23
60 The 8/31 date only establishes the pool of eligible players. Anyone on the 40 man roster, DL or suspended list as of 8/31 is eligible for the post season roster. From that point forward, a team can replace any member of the DL (whether injured before or after 8/31) with another qualified member of the organization (in the organization before 8/31).
2007-09-26 11:20:54
66.   JL25and3
65 Gotcha. I did read him wrong.

How about the in-series substitutions? I haven't seen anything about that rule being changed.

2007-09-26 11:39:32
67.   williamnyy23
66 Check out the Globe link from 35 .
2007-09-26 12:47:43
68.   JL25and3
67 Wow, I'm really stunned that they changed that rule, and that it didn't attract more publicity when they did. I think that's wide open for abuse (which is why they made the rule in the first place).

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