Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
2007-08-22 21:52
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Having dropped the first two games in Anaheim, the Yankees needed Andy Pettitte to come up big in the finale, and that's exactly what he did. Pettitte held the Angels scoreless through five innings (though a blown call at first base by Dan Iassogna on an inning-ending double play in the fourth helped). The Yankees, meanwhile, scratched out a run in the fourth off John Lackey, bringing around a one-out walk to Alex Rodriguez to give Pettitte a 1-0 lead.

Pettitte made his only mistake of the night in the sixth, doubling up on curveballs to Orlando Cabrera, who knocked the second one over the fence in left just beyond Johnny Damon's reach to tie the game. The 1-1 tie didn't last long, however, as the Yankees rallied to take the lead against Lackey in the seventh. Jorge Posada, who was 3 for 4 with a pair of doubles on the night, led off with a walk and moved to third on a single up the middle by Robinson Cano. Wilson Betemit, who had struck out in his first two at-bats, followed by yanking a line drive to right, but right at Vladimir Guerrero, whose strong arm held Posada at third. Melky Cabrera then followed with an RBI single past Howie Kendrick at second, and, after a quick fly out by Damon, Derek Jeter delivered a two-out single to plate Cano.

Curiously, both run-scoring innings by the Yankees to that point ended with outs on the bases. In the fourth, Jorge Posada got caught in a run down between third and home as he tried to score on John Lackey's wild throw to first on Cano's infield single which had plated Rodriguez. In the seventh, Jeter was thrown out trying to advance to second on Guerrero's throw home.

Fortunately, the Yankees didn't need any extra runs as Pettitte stranded a leadoff single by Kendrick (that was aided by a Robinson Cano bobble) in the seventh, and the Yankees piled on in the eighth. A leadoff homer to dead center by Bobby Abreu bounced Lackey, after which the Bombers added two against the struggling Scot Shields and plated a third run charged to Shields with Chris Bootcheck on the hill. With a 7-1 lead, Joba Chamberlain came on to strike out the side, all on that nasty corkscrewing slider, around a Reggie Willits single in the eighth. The highlight of Chamberlain's inning was his three-pitch strikeout of Vladimir Guerrero. Vlad fouled back a 100-mile-per-hour fastball on 0-1 only to come up empty on that slider for strike three.

The Yanks and Angels each added a run in the ninth, the Angels on three dinky singles against Mariano Rivera, to set the final score at 8-2.

With the Red Sox and Mariners both losing, the Yankees gain a game in both the Wild Card and the division with the win, which also moved Joe Torre past Casey Stengel and into second place on the Yankees' all-time managerial list. The Yankees are just 4-5 in their last nine games, but they're 7-3 against the contenders they've faced over the last two weeks and will have today to rest up before starting a seven-game stretch against Detroit and Boston.

Comments (57)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-08-22 22:55:32
1.   yankz
Damn Cliff, beastly.
2007-08-23 00:26:42
2.   rabid stan
Ah, it was sweet to read that recap, Cliff. You should write more of those. I'm almost sorry I didn't watch the game (not really).

Off-topic, but with the general theme of pain-in-the-ass teams getting theirs, that Orioles/Rangers score is a thing of beauty.

I've been reading some O's blogs. The game threads are very funny.

2007-08-23 01:54:47
3.   Yu-Hsing Chen
i gues that all said and done, 1 out of 3 against the Angels on the road wasn't a particularly bad outcome and was somehwat expected. the frustration though is that we really lit them up in all 3 game. soemthign i didn't expect to happen, but got blown away by a decent but not great offense.
2007-08-23 04:59:08
4.   Sliced Bread
Torre > Stengel. Wow. Way to go, Joe. That's some feat in modern baseball.
Will the Brothers Steinbrenner let him gun for McCarthy?

Mo's dinks. They're fallin' in bunches these days. Melky to short center? Wishbone defense.

2007-08-23 05:15:29
5.   monkeypants
3 Game 1 was the real killer. Games 2 and 3 were blowouts for the eventual winner, but Game 1 could have gone either way. The difference between 2-1 and 1-2.

4 Gun for McCarthey? God I hope not, since it would take three or four more seasons.

More troubling than the dinks was another HBP, continuing Mo's trend of a relative lack of control (by his lofty standards). That said, the batter clearly swung and should have been called out even though the pitch hit him.

2007-08-23 05:33:35
6.   Sliced Bread
5 I recognize Torre's faults, but I'm not in the Joe-Must-Go camp. If the Yanks are going to retain Posada and Mo this winter, as I believe they will, and should -- then I think Joe should be given a few (2?) more years with his guys, the Old Guard. As the 2nd winningest manager in Yankees history, I'd say he's earned the privilege of opening up the new stadium.
2007-08-23 05:40:22
7.   seamus
5 I think that it was called correctly as a foul ball. He hit it with the hands part of the bat, so to speak.
2007-08-23 05:54:08
8.   williamnyy23
4 I hope not! :)

5 The only reason Kotchman got hit was because he was swinging at the pitch. Still, Mo wasn't sharp and was throwing in the low 90s. He could definitely have used some extended rest, but apparently Joe can't see that.

6 Joe hasn't earned any more privileges than other Yankee greats. Donnie and Bernie were both shown the door when their skills diminished, so Torre should be no different. I think Joe's number should have been up for a while now, so he's fortunate that he was allowed to stick around long enough to pass Stengel. Unless the Yankees win the WS, there's no way I'd bring Torre back. Even then, I'd prefer not to, but public pressure would probably demand it.

2007-08-23 05:56:31
9.   Sliced Bread
8 Donnie showed himself the door, and Bernie's skills were much further diminished than Joe's are at this point.
Winning the WS is a crapshoot. Why should the decision to resign him be based on that?
2007-08-23 06:01:06
10.   Knuckles
9 Joe ve bernie in the diminished skills dept is debatable. Yes, the WS is a crapshoot, but stubbornly sticking to simple, easily changeable actions like leaving your closer in the pen in a tie game on the road, and playing bullpen by numbers for years when you don't have the personnel to pull it off, are like giving all the other crapshooters a 10 yard head start.
2007-08-23 06:03:55
11.   williamnyy23
9 Did Donnie trade for Tino in the off season? As for Bernie/Joe, I don't agree with you. I think Bernie's early season presence over the likes of Thomson, Phelps and Stink would have helped out, whereas I think Torre's mismanagement has cost the team games. Joe has his four rings (but played in a negative role in not getting two more), hall of fame credentials and national celebrity. The Yankees do not owe him anything.
2007-08-23 06:08:06
12.   Sliced Bread
10 Again, I recognize his faults, but it's worth noting Joe went to Mo in the game Henn blew the other night.
And given the hit-miss nature of relief pitchers, I'd say bullpen management is almost as much a crapshoot as winning the WS.
I also don't think Girardi or Mattingly would have much more luck with the relief pitchers Joe's been juggling.

Speaking of which, when are we going to see Britton?

2007-08-23 06:12:57
13.   Sliced Bread
11 If it were up to Joe, Bernie probably would have been on the team to start the season.

OK, so the Yanks don't owe Joe anything. But has his job performance warranted the team's consideration for an extention? I think so. Is there somebody available who most certainly will do a better job than Joe? That's another question, and off the top of my head I'd say Joe is still on the short-list of managers you'd want.

2007-08-23 06:22:01
14.   williamnyy23
12 Bullpen management is a crapshoot? Really?

13 No...I don't think so. In fact, I think his last extension was unwarranted. Joe's performance this year has been a contributing factor to the Yankees precarious position. He has also grossly mismanaged the post season since 2003. In my opinion, the Yankees would be much better off with a new manager.

2007-08-23 06:33:10
15.   Sliced Bread
14 ...and the last word on Joe Torre's fate goes to williamnyy23. Congratulations! You get to kick the 2nd winningest manager in franchise history to the curb!
2007-08-23 06:37:17
16.   Cliff Corcoran
1 What means "beastly?"
2007-08-23 06:37:24
17.   williamnyy23
15 I'm sorry...did we stop having opinions here? In that case, sign Joe to a 10-year deal, trade for Proctor, Sturtze and Heredia, replace the new Stadium grass with green tea leaves and do whatever else Joe wants. He has become bigger than the franchise, so instead of making winning a priority, the goal should be to keep Joe happy.

Sounds like a great plan.

2007-08-23 06:40:14
18.   Sliced Bread
17 whoa... easy... we can disagree on Joe without invoking the names Sturtz and Heredia.
2007-08-23 06:41:28
19.   yankz
16 It's a good thing; Joba = beastly. Putting up a long and awesome recap at that hour is beastly.
2007-08-23 06:52:57
20.   williamnyy23
18 You can't throw my best evidence out of court!
2007-08-23 06:59:38
21.   bp1
12 As usual, Sliced, we see eye to eye on this. Bullpen management is ripe for 2nd guessing, and there are plenty of perfect Monday Morning mgrs out here. The same guys who yell at Joe now for not using Joba every game were yelling at Joe in May for not using Bruney every game.

Where's Bruney now?

2007-08-23 07:15:25
22.   rbj
14 Au contraire, Joe has very much helped this team this year. They started off 11-19 because everyone of their starters (save Pettitte) and their replacements went down with injuries. It's real hard to win games when you've got to piece together 7 innings from the bullpen every day -- which then burns those arms out for later on. Yet the team did not panic and now they've made up 9.5 games on the Red Sox and at least are in the hunt for the WC. I credit that non panicking to the veteran leadership, starting with the manager.

Now, can you point to instances where Joe makes mistakes? Absolutely. You can do the same with every other manager who's ever managed more than a handful of games. Is La Russa a better manager? Francona? His team was out of the playoffs two years after winning the WS. Bobby Cox is the only one with at least as good a track record the last few years as Torre, but since his team has only won one WS he must stink as a manager too.

2007-08-23 07:21:28
23.   Schteeve
10 Are you forgetting that Joe did pitch Mo in the 9th of a tie game on the two days ago?
2007-08-23 07:26:56
24.   pistolpete
11 >>Did Donnie trade for Tino in the off season? >>

No, but he pretty much forced their hand when he couldn't make a commitment to come back for the '96 season. If I remember hearing right on one of the 'Yankeeographies', Mattingly actually gave his blessing to go and get Tino...

2007-08-23 07:29:27
25.   williamnyy23
22 I beg differ in any language you choose. If you read the game logs, there were plenty of instances where Torre's mismanagement exacerbated an already precarious situation. Injuries were also a factor, but Joe's poor game management was a definite factor in the Yankees digging an extraordinarily deep hole. When the going gets tough is when a good manager is supposed to make the difference, not when the entire team is a firing on all cylinders.

Also, if this group of veterans needs Joe Torre to not "panic" and give up, well, then maybe they need new players too. I have a hard time believing that's the case.

Evaluating managers is clearly a very difficult task, but simply pointing to the W-L record is almost as silly as using the same criteria to judge a pitcher. Sure, Torre's Yankees win a lot of games, but they should. They have enormous talent.

From my vantage point, I think the Yankees would be better off with a more creative, original manager. I am hoping that this off season, Cashman will put sentimentality aside and search high and low for a new Yankee manager capable of leading this team for the next 10 years.

2007-08-23 07:35:37
26.   williamnyy23
24 There was no acrimony involved, but it was pretty clear that while the Yankees wanted Mattingly back, they were also going to pursue another first baseman regardless. Still, you are correct in noting the differences between the Mattingly and Bernie situations.
2007-08-23 07:41:09
27.   williamnyy23
I was reading a NYT article around the time Torre was hired and came across this interesting tidbit, made very relevant by the recent Sheffield comments:

Torre also encouraged Watson to give batting tips to the younger Braves, when black elders were still not trusted with such cerebral chores. Having paid his dues as general manager in Houston, Watson remembered that Torre's qualifications included lack of prejudice.

"Is this the old-boy network?" somebody asked, reasonably, about Torre getting a fourth job.

"So be it," Watson said.

2007-08-23 07:52:47
28.   rbj
25 There have been lots of instances of talented teams folding -- heck, look at the Tigers this year who are falling down (and last year they stumbled into the WC spot). As well as the veteran, talented RS of last year.

I do not think that just because a team has lots of veterans and is talented that they don't need a good manager to keep them focused on doing their jobs and not mouthing off; see, e.g. Sheffield, Gary & the Dodgers.

Now if you want to say he's made mistakes, yes he has, but show me a manager who has not. I do think a good bench coach would help him more with in game decisions, but I've never said he's a great in game manager; his forte is in focusing his players to play on the field to their level of talent and not being a Bronx zoo.

2007-08-23 08:04:38
29.   williamnyy23
28 I don't disagree with that sentiment, but think his people skills no longer over ride his poor game management. There's no reason that an organization like the Yankees shouldn't have a manager who can do both well.
2007-08-23 08:08:59
30.   rbj
So who do you think should be the Yankee manager?
2007-08-23 08:10:41
31.   JL25and3
26 Mattingly did more than fail to commit for 1996. After the 1995 playoffs, he said that he wasn't retiring but he was going to try retirement and see how he liked it. In effect, he was pulling a Clemens; he was going to wait until after the season started before making a decision.

I don't know if this was a face-saving scenario, whereby the Yankees didn't have to say that they didn't want him anymore. At the time, I thought that it was Mattingly's way of retiring without have to come out and say it. In either case, the Yankees didn't show him the door.

2007-08-23 08:41:10
32.   Mattpat11
I've always said it, but I really don't think Torre's replacement will be that much different that Joe. People praise Mike Scioscia, but if he single handedly cost the Yankees the playoffs the way he did the Angels in 04, we'd all call for his head on a spike.
2007-08-23 08:41:36
33.   yanster
12 I agree that Berni would have been an upgrade over the bench for the first half of the season. But it was hard to tell and it would have been tough to drop him half way through to get our Duncans, Betemits, and Philips in there. Letting Cairo go was hard enough.

23 funny how short our memories are, no? Joe did the one thing he's always criticized for not doing - and that was very cool. No win, but still - way to go with leverage Joe. (old dog, new tricks)

30 Girardi should get a shot, and I think he will, which makes me very happy. It would be fantastic if we won the WS this year and Torre could be pushed out/retired while the Yanks were on top.

It will be great to see comparable for Girardi or whoever the new coach is. We could all be eating our hats and that would be fun. (The new pitching staff promises to be a hell of a lot better next year, though, which will hurt the comparables).

2007-08-23 08:48:07
34.   JL25and3
33 Why is everyone so sold on Girardi? What exactly does he bring to the table that will make him obviously successful?
2007-08-23 08:50:59
35.   NJYankee41
31 I could see Jeter retiring like that.
2007-08-23 08:52:10
36.   JL25and3
25 Also, if this group of veterans needs Joe Torre to not "panic" and give up, well, then maybe they need new players too. I have a hard time believing that's the case.

The point isn't that if he panicked, they'd panic. But Bobby Abreu (for one) did need Torre to not panic, because if Torre panicked then Abreu wouldn't have been in the lineup anymore. Earlier in the season fans and media were screaming for all sorts of panic moves to be made, but the Yankees have benefited greatly from Joe's not making those moves.

2007-08-23 08:55:20
37.   weeping for brunnhilde
5 Well-said, mp.

Exactly so, although last night's game didn't become a blowout until late.

A classic pitcher's duel; we're just lucky Andy didn't blink first.

2007-08-23 09:21:20
38.   Dimelo
28 Great job, rbj.

12 Bullpen management is a crapshoot.

I still don't get how everyone knows what the right bullpen move a manager should make. If it were that easy, why aren't a great many of us managers? It really doesn't make any sense to me, and I go and read blogs for other teams and they are just as critical of their managers. I've even heard Sawx fans say that if they had Torre they would have won more than one championship.

Isn't the problem that there aren't that many reliable relievers in the league? So ALL managers end up looking bad at one point or another.

Honestly, I could care less if Torre ruined the arms of such players like Sturtze, Proctor and Ramiro. They weren't high ceiling guys in my book and he tapped out that resource till he couldn't go to it anymore, but I've never heard people complain about Torre burning out his starters - I find that more important than burning out the usual suspects in the bullpen.

I think people around these parts really trivialize bullpen moves. The other thing people have a problem with is defined roles in the bullpen, but it exist all across the league but I think it helps relievers (yes, they are fragile like that) pyschologically to know when they are most likely to be used.

BTW, I would definitely bring Torre back. I still think he's the right person for the job.

2007-08-23 09:24:16
39.   williamnyy23
30 If I was Cashman, I would hold an extensive round of interviews with several candidates in an attempt to find someone compatible with a pre-defined philosophy. I could rattle off names based on conjecture, but the only way to find the next Yankees manager is to aggressively look for him.

31 I happen to think that Mattingly's decisions in the off season of 1995 were more an attempt to save face as the organization was clearly moving in another direction.

33 It was nice to see Joe use Mo in a high leverage spot, but then he follows up by bringing him into an 8-1 game. It's progress, but very slow at that. I've posted this figure before, but Rivera has been used in 20 games when the team was either ahead or behind by 4 runs. That's almost 40% of the time!

36 Who else was Torre going to play? The bench was so weak that Torre couldn't panic, even if he wanted to. Besides, who says Joe doesn't panic…I happen to recall a future HoFer being moved down to 8th in the lineup in a recent playoff series.

2007-08-23 09:32:08
40.   JL25and3
39 That's the only instance I know of where Torre's panicked. It was a terrible move. To give him credit, he'd gone through an entire season of trying to wait Alex out; while Rodriguez certainly didn't have a bad season, he went through some awful funks, and was apparently going through another with the season on the line. Bad move, but overall I can't say that Joe panicked with him.

What's the problem with bringing Mo in yesterday? He does need regular work, and there's a day off today. I know you believe that the danger now is working too much rather than not enough, but we really don't know that. Mo thinks he needs the work, Torre and Guidry and Kerrigan apparently think he needs the work, so I'm not going to argue with them. With a day off, the downside is basically nil.

2007-08-23 09:33:26
41.   Mattpat11
38 He did the same thing with Giambi in 2003 and it worked.
2007-08-23 09:46:41
42.   tommyl
First off, you cannot "trivialize" BP moves. This isn't an instance of Joe bringing in so and so in the slightly wrong spot. Its a pattern of Joe deciding he likes player X, and then killing him with use. Was it really necessary to have Viz pitch down umpteen runs the other night? Two days after he asked not to pitch because he was so tired? Its not just that he makes poor in game moves from time to time, he has a pattern of systematically weakening the BP (an already fragile thing).

As for Torre and his not panicking so the team is doing well argument. Well, Pinella went crazy when the Cubs were playing badly and now they are doing well. Which approach works? or maybe its a lot more players and teams and ups and downs. Can you point to a cause and effect relationship? Did Joe help? Probably. Would another approach have also helped? Maybe.

Now to alternatives, I've always liked Girardi. I think he'd be a better in game manager and most importantly I think he's very good with younger players, as he showed with the Marlins last year. The Yankees are going to have a bunch of young players in the next couple of years (Cano, Melky, Duncan, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Ramirez, Tabata, etc.) and I think Joe just isn't good at handling these types. Joe's good at taking a veteran ballclub and letting them do their thing.

The other advantage to Girardi, is that I think Jeter, Mo, Posada and Pettite all respect him greatly. They'd be less likely to walk and I think the transition would be smooth.

I think Joe has been a great manager, I have tremendous respect for him, but I think its time for a change. That's just me though.

2007-08-23 09:50:01
43.   tommyl
38 You are confusing outcomes with decisions. In most cases, there is a good and bad decision to make. Will they work out every time as you expect? Nope. You can sometimes bring in Kyle Farnsworth and he pitches lights out to hold a one-run lead. And sometimes Mo gives up some runs. That doesn't change the fact that bringing in Mo is the better move in that case.

I for one, get upset with Joe at bad decisions regardless of the outcome. If he brings in Mo and Mo blows a save, I still think it was the right move to make.

2007-08-23 09:51:48
44.   Zack
If, and this is a big IF, those reports of Yankees management really not trusting Torre with the young players and being grumpy with him are true, than they need to move on. You can't really run an organization not trusting your manager with your players. Especially b/c with such a crappy pitching FA market this off season, it looks like the Yanks will have a lot of non-vets around next season.

Other than that, Torre has his annoying habits, but all managers do. The people who have clamored fro Pinella and/or Leyland are just being silly.

The thing about being a ML manager is that its all about being the right person at the right time in the right system. Torre stunk before coming to the Yanks. Pinella couldn't do crap with the Rays, Ditto Leyland. Remember Jack McKeon?

The other thing about managers is that they have a shelf life with teams. At a certain point, it just doesn't work anymore. Usually.

Joe Torre is probably the best manager to get the Yankees through the season, but perhaps not the best manager to get them through the playoffs anymore. Being who he is, he will try to do what used to work, which doesn't anymore.

If we replace Joe, it might be for a better PS manager, but that manager might not be able to get the team there in the first place...

2007-08-23 10:16:31
45.   williamnyy23
40 You could also say he panicked by taking Melky out of the everyday lineup in favor of the established Sheffield. Regardless, panicking isn't the only measure of a manager. Being stubborn can be just as costly, and Joe is definitely that.

What's the problem? Mariano threw 28 precious pitches in an 8-1 games! What's so bad about having three days rest in August just before 7 crucial games? It's not like Mo hadn't pitched in a week. What makes it more confusing if Rivera was coming off a blimp in which he had to be shut down for a couple of games. Just like Using Viz in the 18-5 game, Torre's use of Mo made no sense.

2007-08-23 10:33:26
46.   JL25and3
42 Which approach works? or maybe its a lot more players and teams and ups and downs. Can you point to a cause and effect relationship? Did Joe help? Probably. Would another approach have also helped? Maybe.

The only answer I can give is: it depends. I don't think there's any one style of managing that always works, or any one style (other than utter incompetence) that never works. It's very possible that a different style would work with this group, and I've never said that Torre is the only manager who would succeed with this team. I've only said that his style is what it is, and that I believe it's contributed to the Yankees' success, even last year and this year. (OK, how many sentences did I just cram into one?)

I also want to respond to something ChrisS said a couple of weeks ago. (I didn't want to commit deceased equine cruelty at the time, but that ship's sailed today.) It's by no means a flimsy assertion to say that a group's productivity can be affected by a manager's style. I'm not just talking about baseball here, but any organization. The group members still have to perform, and the final product will probably depend on their abilities (as you've said about the Yankees). But there's a lot of research that says that managerial style can make a difference.

You have often cited the players' stats as evidence, and suggested that "managerial style" is smoke and mirrors because we don't have stats for it. The thing is, it is something that can be quantified; it's not that there are no stats for it, it's just that we don't have the information that would be necessary. That's a very different thing.

2007-08-23 10:35:15
47.   JL25and3
45 Again, that's purely speculative. Three days rest in August, even before 7 crucial games, might be a bad thing for Mo. That's another area where Joe simply has much, much more information available to him.
2007-08-23 10:35:38
48.   JL25and3
47 *than we do.
2007-08-23 10:41:05
49.   rbj
45 Mo has said in the past that he gets in trouble if his arm is too well rested -- that he over throws the ball. Now, that was when he was younger, so maybe more rest is needed now. But neither you nor I know that for a fact. Maybe Mo has gone to Torre and asked for regular work. Last night was a perfect spot for him to work on his location. And sorry, but 39 I want names, and why they would be good for this team. I just don't like trashing a guy without an alternative, it just seems like cheating to me.

Girardi is a good manager for young players right now, IMO. Would his rah rah enthusiasm and desire to teach be a good fit for A-Rod, Giambi, and Jeter right now? I'm not so sure. Plus, he did get into a spat with his owner, and while George isn't his old self, I do see a potential for another Billy Martinesque situation.

One important quality for any new NYY manager is having the ability to handle the NY media and fans. Willie Randolph has that quality.

2007-08-23 10:41:30
50.   williamnyy23
47 In his career, Mo has pitched 126.1 innings on 3-days rest. His ERA is 2.28. The only rest period in which he has been better is 2-days rest. If you look at Rivera's career totals, his effectiveness is pretty much unaffected by days rest until you get to six days. In other words, decisions to pitch him should almost entirely be based on the leverage of the situation and the long-term health of his arm. Because there was no leverage last night, and I don't see how throwing more pitches would be better for his arm, no rational reason for using him remains.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-08-23 10:52:38
51.   JL25and3
50 There are two possible explanations. One is that Torre, Guidry, Kerrigan and Rivera himself are oblivious to all that information, and that they're completely irrational. The other possibility is that they know everything that you do, and much, much more besides.

I go for the second explanation. You may not see how throwing more pitches would benefit Rivera and the team, but obviously they do. I'm going to assume that they are not entirely irrational, and that the explanation lies in the things that they know and we don't.

You - and I - might still disagree with the decision. But irrational? No.

2007-08-23 11:09:40
52.   williamnyy23
49 Throwing out names without really knowing what/how they think is useless. If the Yankees simply pre-ordain a successor, it will be a big mistake. When you are hiring one of the biggest managerial jobs in pro-sports, a concerted effort must be made.
2007-08-23 11:12:29
53.   williamnyy23
51 Or, three, Torre planned to use the formula of Pettitte, Chamberlain and Rivera and isn't creative enough to deviate from the formulas he creates.

I don't put much credence in the "they most know more than we do argument" because a rational possibility doesn't come to mind.

2007-08-23 11:28:38
54.   rbj
52 I can't buy your argument that Torre is a bad manager without some example of whom you think would be a better manger for this particular team.
2007-08-23 11:42:22
55.   williamnyy23
54 That's like saying you couldn't buy the argument that Miguel Cairo was a bad hitter without having someone tell you who his replacement would be. In Cairo's case, we can all go to the stat page to evaluate a substitute, but the only way to evaluate managers is to thoroughly discuss their philosophy or talk to people who have worked with them. I'm sorry, but I don't have the level access.
2007-08-23 11:49:16
56.   Shaun P
54 Davey Johnson. Showed deference to veterans, but never hesitated to use a rookie if the vet was not performing - and to stick with the rookie. Adapted to the situation instead of sticking with a set formula or plan, even without the personnel to execute that formula. Well respected, and he won everywhere he went. Could deal with everyone - including the NY media. And is willing to work based off of hard data as well as gut feelings.

He is the only available manager that I'd unequivocably say would do a better job than Joe Torre.

I haven't read much of the comments above, but the Yanks are a changing team. Within three years, they will no longer be an older/veteran club, but are going to be younger. The question is, is Torre the right guy to lead that transition? I'm not sure. I haven't thought about it enough, and how the roster is composed next year is going to be a big factor.

Oh, there's one other manager I would take for this team - Joe Torre, circa 1996. That guy was freakin' awesome.

2007-08-23 12:12:37
57.   rbj
56 Davey does sound interesting. And that '96 Torre did handle a rookie shortstop pretty well, IIRC. But he did have a great bench coach too.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.