Off-topic, but with the general theme of pain-in-the-ass teams getting theirs, that Orioles/Rangers score is a thing of beauty.

I've been reading some O's blogs. The game threads are very funny.

Mo's dinks. They're fallin' in bunches these days. Melky to short center? Wishbone defense.

4 Gun for McCarthey? God I hope not, since it would take three or four more seasons.

More troubling than the dinks was another HBP, continuing Mo's trend of a relative lack of control (by his lofty standards). That said, the batter clearly swung and should have been called out even though the pitch hit him.

5 The only reason Kotchman got hit was because he was swinging at the pitch. Still, Mo wasn't sharp and was throwing in the low 90s. He could definitely have used some extended rest, but apparently Joe can't see that.

6 Joe hasn't earned any more privileges than other Yankee greats. Donnie and Bernie were both shown the door when their skills diminished, so Torre should be no different. I think Joe's number should have been up for a while now, so he's fortunate that he was allowed to stick around long enough to pass Stengel. Unless the Yankees win the WS, there's no way I'd bring Torre back. Even then, I'd prefer not to, but public pressure would probably demand it.

Speaking of which, when are we going to see Britton?

OK, so the Yanks don't owe Joe anything. But has his job performance warranted the team's consideration for an extention? I think so. Is there somebody available who most certainly will do a better job than Joe? That's another question, and off the top of my head I'd say Joe is still on the short-list of managers you'd want.

13 No...I don't think so. In fact, I think his last extension was unwarranted. Joe's performance this year has been a contributing factor to the Yankees precarious position. He has also grossly mismanaged the post season since 2003. In my opinion, the Yankees would be much better off with a new manager.

Sounds like a great plan.

Where's Bruney now?

Now, can you point to instances where Joe makes mistakes? Absolutely. You can do the same with every other manager who's ever managed more than a handful of games. Is La Russa a better manager? Francona? His team was out of the playoffs two years after winning the WS. Bobby Cox is the only one with at least as good a track record the last few years as Torre, but since his team has only won one WS he must stink as a manager too.

No, but he pretty much forced their hand when he couldn't make a commitment to come back for the '96 season. If I remember hearing right on one of the 'Yankeeographies', Mattingly actually gave his blessing to go and get Tino...

Also, if this group of veterans needs Joe Torre to not "panic" and give up, well, then maybe they need new players too. I have a hard time believing that's the case.

Evaluating managers is clearly a very difficult task, but simply pointing to the W-L record is almost as silly as using the same criteria to judge a pitcher. Sure, Torre's Yankees win a lot of games, but they should. They have enormous talent.

From my vantage point, I think the Yankees would be better off with a more creative, original manager. I am hoping that this off season, Cashman will put sentimentality aside and search high and low for a new Yankee manager capable of leading this team for the next 10 years.

Torre also encouraged Watson to give batting tips to the younger Braves, when black elders were still not trusted with such cerebral chores. Having paid his dues as general manager in Houston, Watson remembered that Torre's qualifications included lack of prejudice.

"Is this the old-boy network?" somebody asked, reasonably, about Torre getting a fourth job.

"So be it," Watson said.

I do not think that just because a team has lots of veterans and is talented that they don't need a good manager to keep them focused on doing their jobs and not mouthing off; see, e.g. Sheffield, Gary & the Dodgers.

Now if you want to say he's made mistakes, yes he has, but show me a manager who has not. I do think a good bench coach would help him more with in game decisions, but I've never said he's a great in game manager; his forte is in focusing his players to play on the field to their level of talent and not being a Bronx zoo.

I don't know if this was a face-saving scenario, whereby the Yankees didn't have to say that they didn't want him anymore. At the time, I thought that it was Mattingly's way of retiring without have to come out and say it. In either case, the Yankees didn't show him the door.

23 funny how short our memories are, no? Joe did the one thing he's always criticized for not doing - and that was very cool. No win, but still - way to go with leverage Joe. (old dog, new tricks)

30 Girardi should get a shot, and I think he will, which makes me very happy. It would be fantastic if we won the WS this year and Torre could be pushed out/retired while the Yanks were on top.

It will be great to see comparable for Girardi or whoever the new coach is. We could all be eating our hats and that would be fun. (The new pitching staff promises to be a hell of a lot better next year, though, which will hurt the comparables).

The point isn't that if he panicked, they'd panic. But Bobby Abreu (for one) did need Torre to not panic, because if Torre panicked then Abreu wouldn't have been in the lineup anymore. Earlier in the season fans and media were screaming for all sorts of panic moves to be made, but the Yankees have benefited greatly from Joe's not making those moves.

Exactly so, although last night's game didn't become a blowout until late.

A classic pitcher's duel; we're just lucky Andy didn't blink first.

12 Bullpen management is a crapshoot.

I still don't get how everyone knows what the right bullpen move a manager should make. If it were that easy, why aren't a great many of us managers? It really doesn't make any sense to me, and I go and read blogs for other teams and they are just as critical of their managers. I've even heard Sawx fans say that if they had Torre they would have won more than one championship.

Isn't the problem that there aren't that many reliable relievers in the league? So ALL managers end up looking bad at one point or another.

Honestly, I could care less if Torre ruined the arms of such players like Sturtze, Proctor and Ramiro. They weren't high ceiling guys in my book and he tapped out that resource till he couldn't go to it anymore, but I've never heard people complain about Torre burning out his starters - I find that more important than burning out the usual suspects in the bullpen.

I think people around these parts really trivialize bullpen moves. The other thing people have a problem with is defined roles in the bullpen, but it exist all across the league but I think it helps relievers (yes, they are fragile like that) pyschologically to know when they are most likely to be used.

BTW, I would definitely bring Torre back. I still think he's the right person for the job.

31 I happen to think that Mattingly's decisions in the off season of 1995 were more an attempt to save face as the organization was clearly moving in another direction.

33 It was nice to see Joe use Mo in a high leverage spot, but then he follows up by bringing him into an 8-1 game. It's progress, but very slow at that. I've posted this figure before, but Rivera has been used in 20 games when the team was either ahead or behind by 4 runs. That's almost 40% of the time!

36 Who else was Torre going to play? The bench was so weak that Torre couldn't panic, even if he wanted to. Besides, who says Joe doesn't panic…I happen to recall a future HoFer being moved down to 8th in the lineup in a recent playoff series.

What's the problem with bringing Mo in yesterday? He does need regular work, and there's a day off today. I know you believe that the danger now is working too much rather than not enough, but we really don't know that. Mo thinks he needs the work, Torre and Guidry and Kerrigan apparently think he needs the work, so I'm not going to argue with them. With a day off, the downside is basically nil.

As for Torre and his not panicking so the team is doing well argument. Well, Pinella went crazy when the Cubs were playing badly and now they are doing well. Which approach works? or maybe its a lot more players and teams and ups and downs. Can you point to a cause and effect relationship? Did Joe help? Probably. Would another approach have also helped? Maybe.

Now to alternatives, I've always liked Girardi. I think he'd be a better in game manager and most importantly I think he's very good with younger players, as he showed with the Marlins last year. The Yankees are going to have a bunch of young players in the next couple of years (Cano, Melky, Duncan, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Ramirez, Tabata, etc.) and I think Joe just isn't good at handling these types. Joe's good at taking a veteran ballclub and letting them do their thing.

The other advantage to Girardi, is that I think Jeter, Mo, Posada and Pettite all respect him greatly. They'd be less likely to walk and I think the transition would be smooth.

I think Joe has been a great manager, I have tremendous respect for him, but I think its time for a change. That's just me though.

I for one, get upset with Joe at bad decisions regardless of the outcome. If he brings in Mo and Mo blows a save, I still think it was the right move to make.

Other than that, Torre has his annoying habits, but all managers do. The people who have clamored fro Pinella and/or Leyland are just being silly.

The thing about being a ML manager is that its all about being the right person at the right time in the right system. Torre stunk before coming to the Yanks. Pinella couldn't do crap with the Rays, Ditto Leyland. Remember Jack McKeon?

The other thing about managers is that they have a shelf life with teams. At a certain point, it just doesn't work anymore. Usually.

Joe Torre is probably the best manager to get the Yankees through the season, but perhaps not the best manager to get them through the playoffs anymore. Being who he is, he will try to do what used to work, which doesn't anymore.

If we replace Joe, it might be for a better PS manager, but that manager might not be able to get the team there in the first place...

What's the problem? Mariano threw 28 precious pitches in an 8-1 games! What's so bad about having three days rest in August just before 7 crucial games? It's not like Mo hadn't pitched in a week. What makes it more confusing if Rivera was coming off a blimp in which he had to be shut down for a couple of games. Just like Using Viz in the 18-5 game, Torre's use of Mo made no sense.

The only answer I can give is: it depends. I don't think there's any one style of managing that always works, or any one style (other than utter incompetence) that never works. It's very possible that a different style would work with this group, and I've never said that Torre is the only manager who would succeed with this team. I've only said that his style is what it is, and that I believe it's contributed to the Yankees' success, even last year and this year. (OK, how many sentences did I just cram into one?)

I also want to respond to something ChrisS said a couple of weeks ago. (I didn't want to commit deceased equine cruelty at the time, but that ship's sailed today.) It's by no means a flimsy assertion to say that a group's productivity can be affected by a manager's style. I'm not just talking about baseball here, but any organization. The group members still have to perform, and the final product will probably depend on their abilities (as you've said about the Yankees). But there's a lot of research that says that managerial style can make a difference.

You have often cited the players' stats as evidence, and suggested that "managerial style" is smoke and mirrors because we don't have stats for it. The thing is, it is something that can be quantified; it's not that there are no stats for it, it's just that we don't have the information that would be necessary. That's a very different thing.

Girardi is a good manager for young players right now, IMO. Would his rah rah enthusiasm and desire to teach be a good fit for A-Rod, Giambi, and Jeter right now? I'm not so sure. Plus, he did get into a spat with his owner, and while George isn't his old self, I do see a potential for another Billy Martinesque situation.

One important quality for any new NYY manager is having the ability to handle the NY media and fans. Willie Randolph has that quality.

I go for the second explanation. You may not see how throwing more pitches would benefit Rivera and the team, but obviously they do. I'm going to assume that they are not entirely irrational, and that the explanation lies in the things that they know and we don't.

You - and I - might still disagree with the decision. But irrational? No.

I don't put much credence in the "they most know more than we do argument" because a rational possibility doesn't come to mind.

He is the only available manager that I'd unequivocably say would do a better job than Joe Torre.

I haven't read much of the comments above, but the Yanks are a changing team. Within three years, they will no longer be an older/veteran club, but are going to be younger. The question is, is Torre the right guy to lead that transition? I'm not sure. I haven't thought about it enough, and how the roster is composed next year is going to be a big factor.

Oh, there's one other manager I would take for this team - Joe Torre, circa 1996. That guy was freakin' awesome.