well, i dvred the end of that and just watched it. I really don't get how we can use Farnsworth in that 8th. We were lucky to escape. And with Henn coming out in the 10th I felt the game was over. I felt no way can we tempt fate twice.

We should have won that game, but our failure to plate more run opportunities was bound to hurt us. So, onward and upward.

Tonight before the first pitch, the Yanks are going to pull their pants down, call the Angels their "Daddy," and then beg for the Halos not to stick it in too far.

Moose was horrible last week. Unless he's got his stuff really working, or an umpire with a liberal strike zone, he'll get torched again. The Angels are free-swingers, so that could help. However, if they get on base, they are sure to make like everybody else this year and run wild on Mussina.

Kelvim Escobar? Anyone seen his ERA lately? Jeez. The Horror vs. the Angels just won't stop.

Well, enough crying from me. Yanks just need to suck it up and beat two excellent starting pitchers over the next two days and that's that.

Wow, I'm happy I missed that. Ugh.

Joba and Edwar were both unavailable after the last game against the Tigers. He used Mariano.

This leaves Vizcaino (he of the "tired arm"), Farnsworth, Henn and Mariano... all of whom pitched. Oh, right, Villone as well.

I don't see mismanaging of the bullpen here. Torre does it a lot, but I can't fault him here. The problem is that Sean Henn just isn't any good (and Cano didn't make a play, and various hitters didn't get the big hit, etc).

And yeah, I hate the Angels too. It may be a good thing I can't watch these games.

Want an Angel to hate? BBRod. I hate him. Hate him. Powerful hate.

His whole schtick - I hate it. Striking out the backup catcher of a sub .500 team for the first out of an inning of a game played in mid June is not an event that should prompt a celebration that most relievers would reserve for closing a League Championship game. Take your freaking Ritalin, you buzzy squirrel.

When Edwar Ramirez made his first appearence for the Yanks, I immediately freaked out because he had those profoundly stupid Oakley glasses that it seems the entire Angels bullpen wears. I rushed to the computer and my worst suspicions were confirmed: he used to play for the Angels. Edwar is great, but I can't help but going into involuntary spasms when I see those glasses.

That stadium should be demolished. The papier mache mountain - good lord. That stupid waterfall is barely visible. Why bother? I'm all for absurd (I actually like the idea of a Rally Monkey, because it makes no sense - "we are down by two in the bottom of the eighth, it's time to free the monkey" - but I hate the stuffed animal monkeys), but like Zappa said, if you're going to go out there, go all the way out there. That mountain is too half ass. Why not go full ass and have a zoo back there with some gorillas and elephants and giraffes? How I would love a sportcenter highlight when the Angels Field giraffe takes a Travis Hafner HR to the head and gets knocked out. Or the gorilla starts flinging its feces at Johnny Damon. This won't happen because the Angels went half ass.

Is that Adelphia ad still in left field? Who the hell is paying for that? I guess you and I are.

5 breathe...

[2.] Ouchie-wa-wa.

I literally hate "K-Rod" more than any player in baseball. I can't stand the guy. The histrionics are so over-the-top, yet the Yankees almost always get beat by him. The way he talks to himself, points at the sky, yells, etc. it's like watching that old wrestler the Ultimate Warrior. Abreu swinging at that ball in the dirt was a huge letdown.

Everyone hates the Angels.
I went to bed up 4-3 but with a bad feeling since the Sox and Mariners had already won. Was not surprised to see the final score this morning. I guess I'm glad I missed it after hearing about the Farnsworth/Henn innings. Hughes was not that great either and it's too bad he had to draw the first (and what should have been the easiest) game of this series. Guess we just suck it up and hope for the best tonight and tomorrow.

I actually like a lot of the Angels. I like their pitchers, I like Vlad, I really like Arte Moreno.

I just don't like our results against them.

To be honest, before that final frame, I thought this was a fantastic game. Hughes really bore down after that Mathis double. Torre's bullpen moves were completely defensible as Joba was unavailable and Edwar had pitched two innings the day before and he actually used Mo during regulation in a tie game on the road to counter K-Rod. They got two huge clutch homers from Rodriguez and Posada and that game-saving play from Betemit. I was thinking to myself, "the old Yankees would have lost this in regulation, they never would have gotten to extras."

If anything Cano's defense and the Yankee offense's inability to do more against Moseley were where they lost this game. I also think that Melky and Abreu's have yet to be comfortable on balls in the gap that they both get close to. Melky came a step short of Budde's game winner, and I think it was because he hesitated when he saw Abreu sliding in his peripheral vision. That's a bit of a stretch, but they've had a lot of issues all year and I think it might have decided the game last night.

The only question that I have is why Giambi was not starting. I think he should be playing more than he is. JD can just PH, PR, and start 1-2 times a week.

I feel exactly the same way about the Angels, Emma. I look at their numbers and wonder why the Yankees don't dominate them.

Night of the Shaky Bullpen - It is amazing how the tenor of the game changes when the bullpen does its job (Chamberlain/Ramirez) versus when all four relief pitchers are shaky. With Vizcaino seemingly burnt out again we need to identify one more bullpen arm who we can really count on on the Joba "Mr Hyde" day. Who is it going to be??? Britton, Bruney, Beam, Veras, Ohlendorf, Igawa (just kidding)

You need a little perspective here.

You need to go back and look at the history of the Angels franchise. Prior to 2002, they were a lot like the Royals, just without the World Series. A few good years, a few stars, like Nolan Ryan and Bobby Grich and Rod Carew, but lots of really really bad years. Take a look at 1986 to understand the heartbreak this franchise felt for so long -- their only shot at the World Series lost in gut-wrenching fashion. It was so bad their closer committed suicide.

They had the great fortune to hire Mike Scioscia,win the Series in 2002, and get purchased by Arte Moreno. They've built on that success, and a great farm system, to win consistently, something they struggled with before. Check out their Baseball Reference page. Did you know this is the first time they will ever finish above .500 four seasons in a row?

I don't see how you can hate a team that has been basically irrelevant to the Yankees for so much of their history. I think the only reason you dislike the Angels is that they are winning and beating the Yankees recently. But that is so new to generate any kind of real hate.

Angels fans have suffered for so long, they deserve to have some success the past 5 years. I'm not the type to go goofy over the Rally Monkey or to bang Thunderstix, and the rocks in the outfield are indeed odd. But I'm willing to overlook those things in the name of a franchise that has finally learned to develop and horde prospects, has great players, a great manager, and a great owner.

They need to bring up Britton already. Cash? Cash? Earth to Cash?

The players I hate most on the Angels are Darin Erstad and David Eckstein, and I don't give a crap that they're not on the team anymore. The Angels have long been the poster child for the moral superiority of contact hitting (singles and Productive Outs) combined with scrap and grit and hustle and determination. You can take your new-fangled stats, your On-Base and your OPQRS - you ignore how games are really won. Jason Giambi may take walks and hit home runs, but Scrapstad and Gritstein have the moral rectitude of ground balls, headfirst slides and dirty uniforms.

That's still the Angels to me. Hell, Gritstad and Scrapstein probably still win games for the Angels, such is the power of their hustle and determination.

And what I hate most is that they beat the Yankees with that bullshit. I effin' hate the Angels.

Going to Farnsworth was indefensible. I know Edwar had pitched the day before, but if he was well enough to warm up in the bullpen (which he did), you've got to think he was well enough to pitch an inning, particularly given all the talk about his changeup being more effective when he's working regularly. He certainly couldn't have done much worse than Farnsworth.

The worst part? Torre's postgame interview in which he singled out Farnsworth for praise, noting that "he got himself into trouble" and "he got himself out of it," adding that he [Torre] felt "that was very important." Farnsworth "got himself out of trouble" via a sac bunt (1 out), a remarkable defensive play that saved a double (2 outs), and a bad call on a checked swing (3 outs).

If that's a performance that INCREASES Torre's faith in Farnsworth, we might as well give up on the postseason. Farnsworth needs to be either DFA'd or traded to Boston for a bag of balls and Chris Britton, tragic hero, needs to be promoted.

0 Emma, you know I love your English 101 references. Earlier this week Michael Kay said that the Tigers (or maybe Orioles) "will not go quietly into the night." I almost threw my shoe at the TV.

I hate the Angels as much, if not more, than anyone here. They thoroughly disgust me. What disgusts me even more is how the Yankees are basically afraid of them, and cower before them like a bunch of frightened schoolchildren. How is it that the Yankees have the ability and potential to pummel every other team in MLB, but routinely get schooled by the Angels?

18 I think Torre's public BFOG statements actually mean less than they seem. With all the talk about Cairo earlier in the year, Joe stopped playing him as soon as he had a remotely viable alternative.

In this case, what would you have him say? "Farnsy squeaked through his inning but he still sucks royally?" Sonce Farnsworth is on the team, Joe's choice is to try to find some way to help him be useful, or not. If slinging a little shit in front of the cameras will help moderate Kyle's churlishness and help him feel like a contributor - and if that, in turn, changes his attitutde on the mound even a little - then that's what Joe will do.

20 posada cowered the snot out of that HR last night. and rodriguez's shot? (his 40th of the season.) looked like he was pretty frightened.

some teams match up well against others. it happens.

i personally don't see the fear that you're describing, though.

22 A couple of home runs doesn't cover up for how badly a lot of the rest of the team played, both on the mound and at the plate. Even if all six of our runs had come on homers last night, we still lost a game that we should have won, maybe going away. Sending fly balls over the wall and out of play doesn't change that.

The Yanks gave up an extra out. It came back to bite them in the ass. You can't do that against good teams. First freakin' RBI of his career. I too hate the Angels sooo much. I and another Yanks fan are going to take it out on an OCer tonight for all of us.

24 Good God that was written horribly. That's how much the Halos piss me off!

22 I will concede that maybe frightened isn't the right word, but it is definitely more than an on-the-field matchup problem. It's mental. If the Yankees win the next two games I will happily retract my comments because our guys will have beaten two good pitchers on the road. However, considering the Yankees' history vs this team, I think it's more likely that our guys get worked.

23 a one run loss in a 10 inning game doesn't mean anyone is "scared" of anyone else. saying that a team is playing poorly is one thing, trying to say team is afraid of their opposition is another.

26 However, considering the Yankees' history vs this team, I think it's more likely that our guys get worked.

unfortunately, i can agree with that.

15 That's not how I remember the Angels' history at all. 1986 wasn't their only shot at a World Series - it was their third ALCS in 8 years, along with two second-place finishes. They showed a knack for picking a player up a year too late, and they traded away more talent than they should have, but they had tons of good ballplayers go through there in those years. You meantion Ryan, Grich and Carew; there were also Don Baylor, Frank Tanana, Fred Lynn, Carney Lansford, Joe Rudi, Doug De Cinces, Brian Downing, and poor Lyman Bostock, among others. Oh yeah, and Reggie Jackson.

Even after that, there's just no comparing them with the Royals. The Angels had a lot of mediocre teams, some of which were still very much in contention; they had very few awful teams.

Wowzers, I'm using this thread as a screensaver on the computer next to me at the office I'm temping in so that I can counteract the thermostat they apparently cemented on zero degrees. Between the heat coming from you guys and the ice age in this office, I should feel the perfect level of indifference >;)

30 You just need to import a few crickets.

18 If you just want to criticize Torre I guess the Farnsworth thing is the only thing you can find to nail him for, but let me remind you that Farnsworth pitched a scoreless inning. The move was not indefensible, and it fucking worked.

What was indefensible, was Phil Hughes walking 5 guys in 6.1 innings.

As for saying that we lost a game that we should have won, that's debatable. There were more than a few Ball/Strike calls that went our way that were, shall we say, questionable.

That game pisses me off so much, because after Betemit's play at first, I had this feeling that no matter what we were gonna find a way to win.

Finally, I don't know why people think Chone Figgins is overrated, he has a .391 OBP for chrissakes. Nobody claims he's A-Rod, but he is the definition of a pest. If anything, I think he's underrated. At least this season.

15 Sure, fine, I applaud Arte Moreno and Bill "I won't make trades" Stoneman and Scoscia. And Bud Black was a hell of a pitching coaching.

But JL25and3 captured half the reason to dislike the Angels in 17 , though he left out the worst part - Rex Hudler. That man alone is enough to make anyone hate the Angels, with a deep passion usually reserved for evil incarnate.

32 Maybe he's not overrated, but he is overhyped. His OBP this year is nice, but it too is overhyped, because its batting average driven (he's hitting over .340). Drop the average down to .280 and the OBP plummets as well, making him far less useful.

I don't know if this was brought up in the in-game comments last night, but I feel that Melky is just as much to blame for the Matthews "double" as much as Cano is. The replays showed that Melky was not running towards the ball until it got through. In other words, he assumed that Cano would get it (even though Cano had to range far for it), and was not backing up the play. If he hustles and backs up the play from the start, there's no way that Matthews goes for second, let alone gets there safely.

Of course, Cano and Mely didn't walk the next 2 guys on 10 pitches.

Unlike most here, I didn't have a problem with Farnsworth coming in the game when he did. Note: I wasn't remotely happy about it, but what were Torre's choices with Ramirez having gone two innings the day before?

I don't think Joe really trusts Farns or has him very high on a BFOG scale (and last night, thank god, will hopefully put him back in the doghouse where he belongs), but given a lack of options, and Farns' recent flukish success, it was worth a shot against a free swinging team.

Having said that, I know Farns is generally awful, but I thought last night he was bad beyond belief. He generally throws strikes and throws hard and occasionally has control issues, and his problem is that he's too dumb to really know how to manage the good stuff and get through the bad (without help from great plays like Betemit's). But last night, he wasn't finding the zone at all -- he had nothing, zero, and anything he threw near the zone was particularly hittable.

As Mattpat put it, his outs were sac bunt, incredible play by Betemit, and a horrible check swing call by the ump...what kind of divine intervention (or deal with the devil) gets you that kind of luck when your stuff is a total steaming pile? It might have been better for Farns to just give it up there (since everyone expected him to tank) and not stay up longer to lose the way we did.

29 Yeah, so they had three shots in 40 years from 1961 to 2001. 1979 ALCS they lost 3-1. 1982 they won the first two games and lost 3-2. 1986 they needed one out and lost 3 games to 2 in one of the most heartbreaking losses ever. Would the Yankees consider that a winning tradition? Most fans here wouldn't even be satisfied with 3 shots in 8 years, especially with 3 miserable years of the remaining 5.

The point is, no Yankees fan ever worried about the Angels until 2002. Suddenly an up-and-coming team with a strong farm system and great management wins, and you hate them? Whatever.

36 "The point is, no Yankees fan ever worried about the Angels until 2002. Suddenly an up-and-coming team with a strong farm system and great management wins, and you hate them? Whatever."

Exactly. The fact that the Angels weren't even on Yankee fans' radar until 2002 and have just been killing us in the most annoying ways ever since is the reason for the hate. You should enjoy and embrace the hate. It means your team is doing well. I didn't hear long discussions on Talk Radio about how everyone hated the Yankees in 1990.

3 , 11 Yeah, you're right... I don't REALLY have a problem with the bullpen management last night, just couldn't resist pointing out that that's it's been an emotional summer for the Yankee relievers.

15 36 Daniel, of COURSE it's only because they've been beating the Yankees recently. But so what? You can't look for logic from sports fans, for whom six years of frustrating losses is plenty of time and reason to work up some good healthy hate. It's nothing personal.

32 Schteeve Figgins is definitely having a great season, but if you look at his career numbers, he's been pretty mediocre. And many people were indeed suggesting he be traded for A-Rod (along with Ervin Santana). Now, maybe this is the real Figgins, in which case he will have been a poor example for me to use, but he still spent the last four years being more or less league-average as a hitter. But like I said, I was searching for a reason to dislike various Angels, when there really aren't many... I've got nothing against Figgins.

38 I think part of my irrational dislike for the Angels has to do with staying up late and the Yankees losing. If I stay up late, I believe I should be rewarded.

36 I don't like the sense of entitlement many Yankee fans have, but in any case I wasn't comparing the Angels with the Yankees. I was responding to the assertion that the poor, poor Angels fans have had to suffer through decades of ineptitude, and we have to let them enjoy their moment in the sun. Only one chance at the WS, and that ended tragically - okay, really three chances, but who's counting.

For the last 30 years, the Angels have been a perfectly decent team overall, and the fans have no cause to wallow in their suffering. I don't like them because of their media image, I don't like them because they chose an embarrassingly stupid name to try to weasel out of a contract, and I don't like them because they wallop the tar out of the Yankees. And I have no sympathy for the suffering of their fans - they've just not been bad enough for that.

Now you know how I feel about the Yankees!

(I had to say it.)

I guess everyone's gotta hate someone. Too bad human nature seems to work that way.

40 I don't like the sense of entitlement many Yankee fans have

Exactly.

I have no sympathy for the suffering of their fans - they've just not been bad enough for that.

Which is why I have zero tolerance for all the moaning and whining that goes on here when the Yankees lose. Especially when they lose to a team with better pitching and a better overall record, yet this was a game they "should have won".

I agree with Cliff that was one of the more entertaining games from a neutural perspective. in fact the Yankees since the Tiger series have been playing a lot like that, where both teams are pretty darn desperate and throwing everything they can.

As for cowering to them, that's just ridiculasly, we faught back to tie or take the lead against them twice against 2 different reliever.

Some teams have the other team's number it's really just as simple as that. the Angels gets owned by the Red Sox, the Twins inexplicablly gets owned by us a lot more than they should.

Cano's always been a somewhat inconsistent guy, on most days he's Roberto Alomar out there, but there are quiet a few times when he look like Soriano. it's difficult to argue with the overall result though. check out his BP rate defensely.

I also can't really blame Torre's pen usage , now if he had gone to Henn in the 9th or something that's a different story, but come on we already used up everyone else except Henn and Villone, and seriously, pitching Mo 2 strait inning isn't a very good call in itself either. and i don't trust Villone a whole lot.

the 8th.. it's teh same deal , you pick between Farns / Villone / Henn.. it's really pick your poison time.

he threw his most reliable avalible RP in the 7th which was also the right move anyway.

the reality is simply that in the crucial situations they excuted better and/or had better luck.

I do agree that we should have Britton over Henn or Villone though.

42 I don't expect any sympathy. I also don't whine about games the Yankees should have won - though sometimes I get pissed at them for it. And I don't think it's any god-given right for the Yankees to win.

I just don't like the Angels - I don't loathe them like I loathe the Dodgers, but I don't like them. Btw, there have been plenty of teams who gave the Yankees fits, especially in big games, that I quite liked and respected: the mid-late 90's Mariners, the late-70s Royals, and the Weaver-era Orioles come to mind.

Just because I'm a Yankee fan, and the world hates the Yankees, doesn't mean that I can't have my own dislike for other teams. I don't like the Angels.

40 "I don't like them because..."

LOL. That sounds a little Dr. Seuss-ish:

I do not like their fake rocks
I do not like Vlad in the batter's box
I do not like them in the playoff mix
I do not like their stupid thunder stix
I do not like their closer who is funky
I do not like their cheesy rally monkey
I do not like the LA Angels of Ana-ham
I do not like them Sam-I-am

(Sorry, I have a three year old. So that's how my mind works these days)
;-)

5 OMG that was funny!

(Sorry - got here late this morning.)

Also, Rick Sutcliffe is unbearable.

He was on some rant about how Mike Soscia (or however I'm supposed to spell it) isn't afraid of Torre, and that other managers basically throw games because they have so much respect for Torre.

And O'Brien goes, "So you're saying that other managers don't try to win when they are up against Torr..." and Sutcliff cuts him off and goes "We've seen it. Absolutely."

So I'm thinking Selig might want to launch an investigation, because apparently other managers are submarining their teams out of deference, to Torre.

And my poor finace had no idea why I was so outraged about the whole thing and yelling at the TV.

43 Indeed, the bullpen was used as it should have been. Henn was the man and he got beat, eh no big deal.

However, the five BBs from Hughes does concern me. Especially since against Baltimore he was having a hard time staying out of deep counts. Though, granted his other peripherals are all as good or better than average.

Hughes keeps me on edge when he pitches, because he seems to be too careful and labors through each batter. Just my gut impression right now.

45 I'm sorry for you, Alabam-
A, sorry 'bout Green Eggs and Ham.

17 - "The Angels have long been the poster child for the moral superiority of contact hitting (singles and Productive Outs) combined with scrap and grit and hustle and determination. You can take your new-fangled stats, your On-Base and your OPQRS - you ignore how games are really won. Jason Giambi may take walks and hit home runs, but Scrapstad and Gritstein have the moral rectitude of ground balls, headfirst slides and dirty uniforms." - and exactly how many championships have the Yankees won since, oh, say, bringing in Giambi and getting away from the ground balls, headfirst slides, and dirty uniforms of the O'Neill-Brosius-Knoblauch era?

As a neutral staying up waaaaaay too late to watch last night, that was probably the best regular-season game I've seen in a long time. Give me a tight, dramatic game like that, even if it ends on a flyball between Melky and Bobby "Todd Pinkston" Abreu, instead of an anonymous Yankee 10-1 victory in an empty ballpark (looking at you, Kansas City) any day!

You are all forgetting perhaps the most galling element of last night's game. The Yanks went down meekly, A-Rod, Matsui, Posada, again'st Darren Oliver. Darren freaking Oliver!! AGGGGGHHHHH!!

10 The right-center gap in Angels Stadium. That brings back memories ....

The Halos are the team I love to hate. I am a very mellow rooter, enjoy a well fought loss as much as a routing victory. But the Angels, oooooh the Angels. They're cocky, they seem to play their best ball against us, achilles friggin heel, Goddamnit Soscia of all people to haunt the Yanks, small ball, smart, Ah!!!

Can't wait for tonight.

45 Ahhh, thank you for saving me from the ravages of explicit ranting. So, are you and the lil' one gonna see "Horton Hears A Who" when it comes out?

52 Perhaps the ghost of Bubba Crosby is still lurking there.

53 Ben, that's "achilles figgins heel, goddamnit Soscia," et al...

Soscia? Scoscia? Sioscia? Scioscia? Hansel? ...

We hate them because they're good and they've knocked the Yanks out of the playoffs twice in recent memory. It's that simple. It's not a personal hate (except maybe K-Rod).

It's a compliment, Daniel Zappala. Besides, we're Yankees fans. Everybody hates our team. So isn't it some sort of honor to have us deign to hate yours? ;)

The Yanks lost a tough game (winnable, but not "should have won") they could ill afford to lose. It wasn't mis-managed by Torre, nor did the Yanks get unlucky (by the sound of it, it was the other way 'round). They were beaten by a really good team.

That doesn't lessen the sting, since the Yanks need to win ballgames so badly. And WTF, Seattle?

THAT is the team I don't get. They have no business being this good. ;)

51 You mean the Darren Oliver who has had a 1.04 ERA since the ASB?

Crazy, but Bud Black and now Mike Butcher have both been very good pitching coaches for the Angels.

42 You have zero tolerance for Yankees's fans whining, but you're going to submit yourself to thousands of words that do exactly that on a Yankees centric forum? And respond?

Whatever turns you on.

59 The whining was last night's thread.

Thank you for MLB Extra Innings. After about a half-inning of Sutcliffe blabbering about things that are completely untrue, I switched over quick to YES. For the first time in a long time, perhaps my whole Yankee following life (1998-present) I was excited to hear Michael Kay. Weird. Good old DirecTV.