Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
A Day With Sunshine
2007-08-15 08:29
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

It's an absolutely perfect day in the tri-state area. Beautiful, sunny, low humidity, a nice crisp breeze. What a day for a stellar pitching matchup in an afternoon rubber game at the Stadium. Orioles ace Erik Bedard has been one of the best pitchers in the league since April (2.32 ERA, 9-2, 87 hits and 157 Ks in 128 innings, quality starts in 17 of 19 games) and is a legitimate Cy Young contender. Yankees rookie Phil Hughes has a 4.64 ERA in just four major league starts, but two of those starts can be written off as one was his major league debut and the other was his first in the majors after three months on the DL. The two starts that followed those two have seen him post this combined line: 12 1/3 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 4 BB, 12 K, with the lone run coming on a solo homer. Hughes threw a career-high 95 pitches in his last start in Cleveland finishing six strong, so endurance is no longer a concern. Sit back and enjoy this one.

Aiding the enjoyment is the knowledge that Jeff Karstens and Jim Brower have both been jettisoned from the roster (via option and likely DFA, respectively) and replaced by Edwar Ramirez (who was back to his old tricks in Columbus, striking out 22 in 12 1/3 innings while allowing just 12 baserunners and two runs since being demoted) and Sean Henn. In his most recent major league stint and subsequent work in triple-A combined, Henn has posted this line: 11 1/3 IP, 13 H, 5 ER, 5 BB, 13 K, which yeilds a 3.97 ERA.

Comments (860)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-08-15 08:49:51
1.   Start Spreading the News
anyone see this study?
Here is the main finding from a working paper by Parsons, Sulaeman, Yates and Hamermesh:

What are the main results of the study?

There are three. First, umpires are more likely to call strikes for pitchers who share their race/ethnicity. The second result is an extension of the first: Umpires are more likely to express a preference for their own race/ethnicity only when their behavior is less closely scrutinized: 1) in parks where QuesTec (a computerized system set up to monitor and review an umpire's ball and strike calls) is not installed, 2) in poorly attended games, and 3) on pitches where the umpire's call cannot determine the outcome of the at-bat. Finally, game outcomes are influenced by the race/ethnicity match between starting pitchers and home-plate umpires. Home teams are more (less) likely to win a game when their starting pitcher and home plate umpire have the same (a different) race/ethnicity.
Science Daily reports on the paper here. Dan Hamermesh sent me the paper just before I went on vacation. I haven't read the paper carefully, but it appears to be well done. The finding that "favoring your own type" varies with monitoring and game conditions -- i.e. that discrimination is essentially price-sensitive (umps do it when it is cheap) -- is especially interesting.

link to the PDF:

2007-08-15 08:58:28
2.   Schteeve
I would love love love love to inspect the methodology for that study.
2007-08-15 09:02:59
3.   ric
but arent the majority of umps and pitchers white, thus creating false correlations?
2007-08-15 09:05:16
4.   Cliff Corcoran
3 Indeed, talk about small sample sizes.
2007-08-15 09:08:09
5.   ny2ca2dc
Wooha on the heaveho to those huckleberries. Welcome back Edwar & Henn....
2007-08-15 09:09:27
6.   dianagramr
Not to rain on this sunny day, but former Juice blogger Will Carroll's mother is gravely ill, and Will could use your good thoughts at this time.
2007-08-15 09:19:46
7.   williamnyy23
1 I saw that report and didn't even want to comment on it because it seemed so silly. Not only is the research not published, but it also fails to define a margin of error or explain how it was able to normalize other variables such as the race of the batter.

Considering that the conclusion was only 1 pitch per game was influenced, I can't see how the study has any relevance whatsoever. Instead, it seems to be an attempt to gain publicity with a provocative conclusion.

2007-08-15 09:22:47
8.   Bob Timmermann
There's been an examination done of the umpire study already:
2007-08-15 09:25:46
9.   yankz
Weird, righty-heavy lineup today (via Pete):

Cabrera CF
Betemit 2B
Jeter SS
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui LF
Posada DH
Phillips 1B
Duncan RF
Molina C

Let's hope Jeter's over whatever was ailing him.

2007-08-15 09:26:15
10.   yankz
Which means Cano, Giambi, and Damon are available off the bench. Wow.
2007-08-15 09:34:47
11.   williamnyy23
9 I'd like to see Cano still in there. His defense is a plus and Betemit is not a great right handed hitter. Duncan's defense also worries me a bit.
2007-08-15 09:35:56
12.   weeping for brunnhilde
Wtf kind of lineup is that?

What, is Randy Johnson pitching today?

Especially Cano--shouldn't he be in the lineup on principle?

2007-08-15 09:40:02
13.   Mattpat11
12 Lefties actually hit him much better than righties this year
2007-08-15 09:44:03
14.   ny2ca2dc
13 At least we know Joe's looking at the numbers.


2007-08-15 09:44:45
15.   JohnnyC
Calm down, guys. There's a method to his madness. Or is it madness to his method?
2007-08-15 09:46:43
16.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
13 Yep.

Bedard vs. Left:
122 ab, .230 .329 .385 .714

vs. Right:

472 ab, .208 .261 .335 .596

2007-08-15 09:48:15
17.   RIYank
I really don't understand the hostility toward the study that Start Spreading the News mentioned.

Ric 3 , no, there is no false correlation. The study controls for race of ump and race of player.

Cliff 4 , the sample size is not small. There were over 2 million pitches examined. The black-ump-black-player n is a lot smaller, and that one correlation might not be very significant, but the correlation for white umps is very significant.

William 7 , the research is published on the web; there is no margin of error given because that is not an appropriate statistic for this kind of study – instead you should look at the standard error of the variables. They also report which results are statistically significant.
The 1% difference is unlikely (in the extreme) to make any difference in a particular game, but that's not the point. The authors are not especially interested in baseball. They're interested in discrimination more generally and used baseball because of the fantastic statistics. Baseball is their 'laboratory'.

I thought it was fascinating, myself.

2007-08-15 09:49:23
18.   NJYankee41
Lets see what happens in the real game before we come up with our own conclusions to what will happen. Bedard has shut them down twice this year, so I don't blame Torre for shking it up a bit. If tight situations come up later in the game I'm sure he won't hesitate to use Cano, Damon or Giambi.
2007-08-15 09:51:21
19.   Mattpat11
16 I didn't say lefties hit him in the traditional sense. Just that they do it better than righties.
2007-08-15 09:51:46
20.   YankeeInMichigan
13 I just noticed the same thing. Bedard's got fairly significant reverse splits across the boards:

vs. R: .208/.262/.335 3.07 ERA
vs. L: .230/.331/.385 3.27 ERA

Perhaps he has built up such a reputation as a lefty killer that opponents are only letting their best lefties hit against him. Note that the lefty sample size is quite small (143 PA).

2007-08-15 09:54:25
21.   SF Yanks
Don't know if it's been posted but here's an article comparing Hughes and Chamberlain's mechanics from The Hardball Times.

2007-08-15 09:55:27
22.   YankeeInMichigan
10 18 Abreu is available as well.
2007-08-15 09:55:52
23.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
19 I was agreeing.
2007-08-15 09:56:16
24.   yankz
22 Oh yeah, d'oh!

21 I posted this on another thread: Isn't that the dude who compared Hughes in a less-than-favorable way to Jaret Wright the day before Hughes shut down TEX?

2007-08-15 09:58:29
25.   yankz
Who is this goofy a-clown on
2007-08-15 10:01:53
26.   RZG
Stop whining about Cano sitting down one game. On Sunday or Monday Torre said Cano would be resting today
2007-08-15 10:03:43
27.   SF Yanks
24 I believe so, however, I'm buying what he's selling. He makes sense and although he may have compared his "mechanics" to Wright's he wasn't saying they were they same pitcher stuff wise.

Also, his stuff on Hughes' velocity drop seems to coincide with what's happening.

2007-08-15 10:05:20
28.   yankz
26 Yeah, Cano's played a ton lately, it's a day game, and a lefty's pitching.

As for Abreu, it's got to be the "Tough lefties get him slumping" theory.

2007-08-15 10:06:06
29.   JohnnyC
Hughes' velocity drop has more to do with his arm strength not being what it should be due to missed time. It's not that mysterious.
2007-08-15 10:06:42
30.   yankz
27 If Hughes has indeed changed his mechanics, I imagine it's because of something Contreras, Guidry, and co. told him. I trust them more than I trust
2007-08-15 10:07:02
31.   Cliff Corcoran
21 Great stuff. Especially as I just claimed Joba in my keeper fantasty league.
2007-08-15 10:07:45
32.   williamnyy23
17 When I first read the Times article, the research hadn't yet been available to my knowledge. Still, based on 8 , the conclusion is basically that 1 in 700 pitches might be influenced by race, although in what direction no one knows. I don't see how such a vague conclusion is meaningful in any context, not to mention in terms of discrimination. It simply seems as if they used to popularity of baseball and provocativeness of race to gain publicity.
2007-08-15 10:07:50
33.   cult of basebaal
Regarding Cano, Joe has been saying for the last couple of days that robbie was going to get a day off. IIRC correctly, he's only had 1 day off since the ASB (or something like that).

He's been a little off for the last 2 days (Ofer), he's facing a tough left-hander, and this year his daytime OPS is .702 compared to .934 at night.

Today was a good day to give him a day off, even if Betemit isn't the same hitter vs LHP.

2007-08-15 10:08:24
34.   yankz
One thing though, don't some of those clips make Joba look EXACTLY like Rocket?
2007-08-15 10:10:16
35.   NJYankee41
13 ,16 ,20 If you take Carl Crawford out of Bedard's splits they look like this:

vsRH: .208/.262/.335
vsLH: .191/.310/.336

There is still a little higher OPS but it's a lot more telling since Crawford has done so much damage against Bedard. Crawford is 7 for 12 with 2 doubles, a triple and a homer against him this year.

So his splits are highly misleading when you consider one player has done all of the damage.

I'm not a big Torre defender, but maybe, just maybe him and the coaches look at those things.

2007-08-15 10:10:44
36.   Raf
30 I wouldn't be so quick to trust Contreras Guidry & Co., especially in light of Igawa & Farns.

Many (most?) pitching coaches are overrated.

2007-08-15 10:10:45
37.   williamnyy23
34 In many ways beyond those clips...Joba definitely calls to mind the Rocket. We should be so lucky!
2007-08-15 10:11:14
38.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
re: r/l splits:

In the 2 previous matchups with Bedard the Yank lefties went 4/12 w/ 1 bb -- 2 hits by Damon (April), and then 1 for 14 w/ 1 bb recently in Baltimore.

2007-08-15 10:11:17
39.   Cliff Corcoran
Don't lose track of the fact that that Hardball Times article is a comparison. Someone had to come in second. He's not saying Hughes isn't good or doesn't have a bright future. Only that Joba's might actually be brighter and that's based almost exclusively on his evaluation of their mechanics.

Then there's this: a general-interest baseball site just posted a detailed article comparing two of the top pitching prospects in baseball, and both of them are on the Yankees' 25-man roster. Holy cow!

2007-08-15 10:12:46
40.   YankeeInMichigan
I recall that, last year, Steve Goldman was running an ongoing comparison of Melky and Markakis. Here's where they stand this year.

Melky: .300/.352/.449
Markakis: .297/.361/.452

But can Markakis play CF?

2007-08-15 10:13:23
41.   yankz
36 I know that Contreras has had a big role in making the Yankees minor league pitching the best in baseball. Again, not saying I trust him or anyone else blindly- just that if they told Hughes to change his mechanics, I trust them more than Carlos Gomez.

Whoa, that was quick.

2007-08-15 10:14:24
42.   Cliff Corcoran
I'll third that Rocket comparison, I noticed it in his first game. The difference being that as a young man, Clemens was much more lean and lanky. 21-year-old Joba looks like 35-year-old Clemens. Still not a bad thing, but the visual similarity doesn't lend itself to a career projection. That said, Joba's weight was a concern that let him slip to the Yankees in the supplemental round, but he's trimed down this year and what I see now is a ideal power pitcher's body. The man is built to start and throw cheese.
2007-08-15 10:14:55
43.   Cliff Corcoran
40 He updated that recently in Melky's favor, check the Pinstriped Blog archives for this month.
2007-08-15 10:15:06
44.   yankz
39 Check out the first question asked on that page- Yanks have three of those studs.

(Buchholz over Phil? Let's see him throw well in the majors.)

40 He recently opened that up again, it's in one of the Bibles I believe.

2007-08-15 10:15:40
45.   SF Yanks
29 If his velocity drop is due to missed time then he should be back up to 95 today with regularity. Lets see if you're right. I don't think you are but, hey, we'll find out soon enough.

30 Yeah, it probably is because of something that Guidry and co. told him. But why would that stop from analyzing it?

2007-08-15 10:15:50
46.   yankz
Or Blog, Cliff's probably right.
2007-08-15 10:16:20
47.   bartap74
Henn gets promoted again for a spell of non-use and Britton continues to rot. Did he sleep with Cashman's wife?
2007-08-15 10:17:53
48.   YankeeInMichigan
28 33 Agreed. In a day game against Santana (July 4), Cano looked awful. Torre was forced to play him that day, since A-Rod was DHing and Cairo was at 3rd.
2007-08-15 10:18:03
49.   yankz
45 I'm just saying- I doubt that's the only explanation for his drop in velocity. Also, there had to have been a tradeoff; they wouldn't change his motion for nothing. It probably saved his energy, or something like that. I'm no pitching guru, I just don't think Gomez looks into why his mechanics were changed.
2007-08-15 10:19:37
50.   yankz
47 Henn is more of a "long man," whatever that means.

Beyond that though, he has to have some kind of injury or weight problem or something. It just makes no sense to leave him in AAA all year.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-08-15 10:20:22
51.   yankz

Phil, let it end here, we really can't afford you getting chucked.

2007-08-15 10:21:21
52.   williamnyy23
From Lo Hud:

The Orioles are reportedly displeased that Miguel Tejada and Nick Markakis got hit last night, so don't be surprised if a Yankee gets drilled today.


2007-08-15 10:21:39
53.   RIYank
32 Interesting point about the effect really being only 1 in 700 pitches. That seems right (I just read Birnbaum's explanation.) It kind of depends on how you look at it. The spread between a white ump and a hispanic ump when the pitcher is hispanic, is much bigger. But Birnbaum's point is that you should divide the 'influence' between the white ump and the hispanic one, which I think is a fair point.

But we do know what the direction is, unless I misunderstand you. The pitch is more likely called a strike when the ump's race matches the pitcher's race. And the result is significant at the 1% level. So, it is very strong evidence of discriminatory bias.

2007-08-15 10:24:00
54.   williamnyy23
53 But how do you know that hispanic pitchers aren't "really" throwing x amount strikes and all three races of umpires are uncutting them by calling x-y? As Birnbaum explains, we don't really know where the bias lies.
2007-08-15 10:26:20
55.   SF Yanks
49 Alright, I see what you're sayin now. It's just that there is nothing else to go on. We have no information regarding his mechanics, and while he's not the pitching coach for the Yanks he is a smart man and knows his pitching. I've always wondered why the scouting reports said Hughes hits 95 consistently but then comes to the majors and sits between 89-92. That article was the only explanation because I sure didn't hear anything form Guidry and co. So until I here something else that makes sense, that's what I'll go with.
2007-08-15 10:26:21
56.   weeping for brunnhilde
18 Fair enough.
2007-08-15 10:26:42
57.   Schteeve
MLB TV sucks. It's been crashy as all hell for the last few days. I want my frickin money back.
2007-08-15 10:27:30
58.   yankz
57 Yeah man, same here. Right when Matsui came up.
2007-08-15 10:28:14
59.   tommyl
I'd say the Rocket has a better follow through than Joba though. I remember reading sometime ago, that Roger went to one of those sports performance institutes, then filmed him with all these high speed cameras and found that basically every single motion in his windup and delivery was perfect or near perfect. He was a singular example. Joba's not quite there yet.
2007-08-15 10:28:53
60.   Schteeve
By the way, I can't believe that Matsui is going to finish with close to 30 HR this year.
2007-08-15 10:28:54
61.   RIYank
Damn, two free base runners wasted.

54 I don't follow.
It's true that we don't know whether, say, white umps call every pitch exactly right while black umps and hispanic ones are biased toward pitchers of their own race, or instead hispanic ones get every pitch right and white umps are biased, or the bias is divided evenly among the races.
But we do know that the bias is in favor of the umps' own race.

2007-08-15 10:29:17
62.   weeping for brunnhilde
Damn, what a fine breaking ball.


2007-08-15 10:29:30
63.   Schteeve
That curve ball is insane.
2007-08-15 10:30:15
64.   RIYank
Cool. Tejada took a gooood look at Phil's stuff in that at-bat, huh? Dude, get the bat off your shoulder!
2007-08-15 10:30:26
65.   Schteeve
Millar thinks he's the Ultimate Warrior.
2007-08-15 10:30:42
66.   NJYankee41
59 I've always thought Roger has the best pitching mechanics I have ever saw.

What I find most impressive about Joba's mechanics is his stride. He gets way out there when he lands and that provides some nice power.

2007-08-15 10:32:28
67.   yankz
I'd like to see a DP here, Hughes has been lacking in the GB since returning.
2007-08-15 10:32:36
68.   tommyl
66 Its probably one, though certainly not the only reason, he's stayed healthy this long. I just love watching him pitch, his motion is just so smooth and powerful.
2007-08-15 10:32:40
69.   weeping for brunnhilde
Just my two cents re: the study, I'm not sure why the study was conducted or why its findings should prove so controversial.

Our society is deeply structurally racist and those racist structures probably lead to racist attitudes, even (perhaps especially?) among people who are sensitive against the charge of racism.

Par for the course, if you ask me.

2007-08-15 10:33:16
70.   Mattpat11
I have a quick question. What kind of food is Detroit known for?
2007-08-15 10:33:19
71.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
By my vount that's 16 pitches this inning and no Oriole's swung yet.
2007-08-15 10:33:26
72.   RIYank
Fifteen pitches this inning, no swings yet!
2007-08-15 10:34:08
73.   51cq24
no one has taken a swing this inning, right?
2007-08-15 10:34:27
74.   weeping for brunnhilde
64 Please, RI, don't taunt the guy, just let sleeping dogs lie.

Take it back.

Nice throw by Molina.

2007-08-15 10:34:30
75.   williamnyy23
61 But, when your dealing with such a small percentage of pitches, not only can't you define which race of umpires is exhibiting bias, but you can't rule out other factors as well.

For starters, there are so many more white umpires, that it could be that they are get the calls right and one member of the much smaller minority sample is throwing off the data. Also, maybe white umpires just have more experience, so they get more calls correct. Or, maybe more white pitchers have experience, so they are less likely to be squeezed by umpires who are familiar with them. Most of whom happen to be white.

My overall point is the conclusion is so insignificant, that it wouldn't have even seen the light of day if it didn't tie race into baseball.

2007-08-15 10:34:34
76.   RIYank
71 Yeah, 16. Weird.
2007-08-15 10:35:10
77.   RIYank
Mora swings!!!
2007-08-15 10:36:21
78.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Throw strikes dammit.
2007-08-15 10:36:24
79.   williamnyy23
70 Little Ceasar's and Domino's Piazza!
2007-08-15 10:37:16
80.   weeping for brunnhilde

Right by Mora.

2007-08-15 10:37:41
81.   Jersey
See, Phil? You throw strikes and good things happen.
2007-08-15 10:38:25
82.   51cq24
joba looks so much younger without a cap on
2007-08-15 10:38:49
83.   williamnyy23
69 Every society is X-ist. Just fill in the blank. To me, I think that if only 1 in 700 pitches is subconsciously impacted by race, that would indicate the umpires in baseball do a great job avoiding bias.
2007-08-15 10:39:16
84.   EricSanSan
I'm listening on radio and they seem to think Phil is getting squeezed on the outer half. Any truth to this? Also, what's his velocity so far today?
2007-08-15 10:39:19
85.   Schteeve
Philly Double Cheesesteak!
2007-08-15 10:39:51
86.   Mike T
Looks like Phil found the strike zone again. Those walks made me a little nervous.
2007-08-15 10:39:56
87.   Jersey
2007-08-15 10:40:08
88.   ny2ca2dc
Boy o Boy. came apart for a few pitches there, but got right back on the horse. When he irons out those nerves or whatever it is, look out... Hell, look out right now.
2007-08-15 10:40:23
89.   SF Yanks
84 91-92
2007-08-15 10:41:44
90.   Shaun P
Man o man - even on Gameday, Hughes looks awesome.
2007-08-15 10:41:49
91.   williamnyy23
Maybe Hughes will turn into Mussina and Joba into Clemens...I'd sign up for that :)
2007-08-15 10:42:05
92.   YankeeInMichigan
43 44 That's what I get for going on vacation.
2007-08-15 10:42:16
93.   RIYank
83 They do a better job when QuesTec is watching.
That's what I thought was so interesting. That this kind of thing can be ameliorated.
2007-08-15 10:43:03
94.   Mattpat11
91 Indeed.
2007-08-15 10:43:10
95.   Jeteupthemiddle
So I can't tell if it is my office computer or just gameday in general, but I have absolutely no idea what is going on in this game until what I imagine is 10 minutes after the fact.

Play-by-play would be awesome. :)

2007-08-15 10:43:37
96.   williamnyy23
93 How much better than 1 in 700 can you do? At what point does it become just a blimp and not statistically significant. At 1 in 700, I already think it is insignificant.
2007-08-15 10:44:20
97.   RIYank
What's that called, when someone hits the ball and they let him stand on a base afterward?
2007-08-15 10:45:31
98.   Mike T
"Play-by-play would be awesome."

Having the YES Network on Cox cable here in Vegas would be awesome.

2007-08-15 10:45:49
99.   RIYank
95 We went down 1-2-3. Duncan struck out.
2007-08-15 10:46:16
100.   Schteeve
95 Posada tapped up the middle and Tejada made a non Jeterian easy play to throw him out.

Warning Track Andy lined out to the uh, warning track in right.

Duncan fanned on three breaking balls, and looked thoroughly overmatched doing it.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-08-15 10:46:33
101.   pwicked
Uh oh, 11 straight innings w/o scoring...
2007-08-15 10:46:47
102.   51cq24
83 that's stupid this is baseball and it's pathetic if "x-ist" tendencies play any role whatsoever.

84 not being squeezed but only just missing.

2007-08-15 10:47:13
103.   RIYank
96 I don't know what you mean by 'insignificant'. Statistically, the authors claim it is significant at the .01 level. I didn't do the arithmetic myself, but they include the standard errors so it should be possible to check. But I figure you mean something different.
2007-08-15 10:48:26
104.   EricSanSan
Tampa let Dice-K off the hook in the first inning. 2nd and 3rd no out, and they only push one across. Hopefully they can add more now, top of the order back up.
2007-08-15 10:49:19
105.   bartap74
97 Are you trying to point out Bedard has a NO-HITTER so far? It's nice of you not to want to jinx Bedard's attempt at a NO-HITTER, but I think it's acceptable to point out that the visiting pitcher hasn't yet given up a hit.
2007-08-15 10:49:44
106.   yankz
Re: 1/700- does the study indicate whether some umps had a higher%? I mean, it's possible that some white umps were more racist than others- maybe they're something like 100/700? But because there are so few of them, the mean is much lower?
2007-08-15 10:49:45
107.   Mike T
Tampa 1-0 Boston top of the 3rd
2007-08-15 10:49:46
108.   weeping for brunnhilde
83 Whether they do a "great" job or a "poor" job of avoiding bias is relative.

The judgment one comes to about that has no bearing on whether something's happening or not.

Did the study conclude with any sort of prescription or judgment?

2007-08-15 10:50:52
109.   EricSanSan
1st and 2nd no outs at Fenway. Iwamura and Crawford both singled to open the 3rd. Upton striding to the plate.
2007-08-15 10:51:23
110.   Bags
70 Coney Island may be Detroit's most famous and singular contribution to cuisine.

I'd pay a lot of money right now for three Coney Dogs with everything and a side of Chili cheese fries right now. Yummm.

There's a great rivalry between American Coney Island and National Coney Island in downtown Detroit. Two storefronts right next door to one another, both serving the very same thing. I was partial to American, as I recall, because they sold beer.

Great place to go after a Tiger game.

Decent overview here:

2007-08-15 10:52:32
111.   yankz
Give 'em hell, Molina.
2007-08-15 10:52:34
112.   Schteeve
WTF is the .1 level? Confidence intervals are typically quoted at the 95 or 90% level for statistical significance.
2007-08-15 10:52:50
113.   Mike T
Rays with bases loaded, no one out.
2007-08-15 10:52:52
114.   EricSanSan
Upton walked on four pitches. Bases loaded, no outs. Carlos Pena at the plate. Good things brewing for the Tampa Bay.
2007-08-15 10:53:09
115.   weeping for brunnhilde
93 Right, ok, QuesTec.

That's another matter.

If the goal is to avoid bias, period, then sure, use QuesTec.

But I am naturally wary of turning to technology in an attempt to effect social fairness, on the field or off.

I don't know, I have a lot of ambivalence about this.

2007-08-15 10:53:12
116.   Shaun P
95 Jete, Gameday is truly messed up today for me too. First, there was no record of Tike Redman batting, but there were two strikes on Brian Roberts. Then, the second strike was changed to a ball. THEN, Tike Redman was shown as flying out on 3 pitches, with strike one to Roberts. Then strike two to Roberts . . . which gets changed to ball one for Patterson, with no record on Roberts!

I think its caught up now (two outs, Patterson singled), but sheesh.

2007-08-15 10:53:14
117.   Schteeve
I'll give Molin five bucks if he throws Patterson out trying to boost a base.
2007-08-15 10:53:29
118.   williamnyy23
103 I talking logically significant, as opposed to statistically significant.

If "maybe" 1 close pitch every three games is being subconciously impacted by race, well, I don't think that points to a problem, nor is it evidence of systemtic racism on our society. Then, when you factor in that so many other variables unaccounted for may further lessen that percentage, the "significance" decreases even further.

2007-08-15 10:53:36
119.   Mike T
Tampa 3-0 Boston, still no one out.
2007-08-15 10:53:48
120.   RIYank
106 Sure. There's no way to disentangle which umps are responsible for the bias, given these data.
2007-08-15 10:53:49
121.   EricSanSan
Pena doubles to left! 3-0 Rays. Still 2nd and 3rd with no outs.
2007-08-15 10:54:11
122.   EricSanSan
Mike T you are killing me.
2007-08-15 10:55:14
123.   Schteeve
118 But don't you think that statistical significance is more reliable than "logical significance" since "logical significance" is so subjective and all? I think that's why they invented statistical significance.
2007-08-15 10:55:16
124.   weeping for brunnhilde
I guess I just don't understand what this study tells us.

That umpires' calls are subjective?

We knew that.

That one element of the subjectivity is racism?

Big surprise.

I don't know, maybe I'm being obtuse, but I'm just not getting why this study is so provocative or even useful.

2007-08-15 10:55:20
125.   yankz
Not what I meant by "Give 'em hell."
2007-08-15 10:55:38
126.   SF Yanks
53 pitches and counting...
2007-08-15 10:55:51
127.   EricSanSan
2007-08-15 10:55:51
128.   weeping for brunnhilde
I think Shelley could maybe have caught that.

His route was funny.

2007-08-15 10:55:55
129.   RIYank
115 It's just the principle of the thing.

Just to make it clear: the point of the study isn't to "indict baseball" or anything like that. It's to find out about bias, and how it can be corrected or controlled by oversight.

Argh. Okay, Phil, let's see what you're made of now.

2007-08-15 10:56:11
130.   Mike T
Tampa 4-0 Boston, still no one out.
2007-08-15 10:56:20
131.   EricSanSan
At least its 4-0 Tampa.
2007-08-15 10:56:24
132.   yankz

123 Amen.

2007-08-15 10:56:44
133.   williamnyy23
123 In a study like this that is so subjectie to begin with, no, I am not sure statistical significance trumps logic.
2007-08-15 10:57:09
134.   williamnyy23
1-0 to Bedard seems like 10-0.
2007-08-15 10:57:24
135.   Jeteupthemiddle
But what is going on in the Yankee game?

According to Gameday Markakis is up.

2007-08-15 10:57:35
136.   yankz
Nice curve.

OK, 3 runs coming up.

2007-08-15 10:57:41
137.   EricSanSan
5-0, squeeze bunt it looks like.
2007-08-15 10:57:44
138.   NJYankee41
I'm not in love with Phil's pitch count.
2007-08-15 10:57:54
139.   Schteeve
133 Well I agree because to a point, I think the study is pretty much a waste of time. Way too much noise.
2007-08-15 10:57:57
140.   yankz
135 He singled in Patterson. Tejada flew out to Melky to end it.
2007-08-15 10:58:16
141.   SF Yanks
56 pitches in 3 inning.

18.6 pitches an inning. Toooo many.

2007-08-15 10:58:21
142.   Mike T
Tampa 5-0 Boston, one out.
2007-08-15 10:58:23
143.   fansince77
I don't know why Hughes threw a fastball 3-2 when he went to the curve 3-1. It's virtually an unhittable pitch...if he walks him- he walks him. Rookie mistake.
2007-08-15 10:58:26
144.   yankz
138 What's it at? Also, if it's available, his ball/strike ratio? Thanks.
2007-08-15 10:58:56
145.   Schteeve
135 Markakis singled to right, Duncan coulda maybe caught the ball. But it dropped in front of him and Patterson scored. Then Hughes got the next hitter to fly out to center on a breaking ball.

One run in.

2007-08-15 10:59:38
146.   RIYank
I just don't see the "logic".
It's a massive, huge sample. The chance of getting the exhibited bias by chance with unbiased umps is less than .01 (that's what the significance test tells us).
The effect of the bias is small, but it is real.
This isn't supposed to be some huge problem for MLB. It's supposed to show us that people have (presumably) unconscious biases that can be controlled by oversight even if they are unconscious. At least this is what I thought was interesting.
2007-08-15 10:59:42
147.   NJYankee41
144 56 32 strikes 24 balls. According to Gameday
2007-08-15 10:59:52
148.   51cq24
are you guys kidding? you don't see why it's important and very scary if umpires' calls are even slightly based on race? if we talk about steroids or betting everyone gets very upset. but racism is just a part of life that we have to accept, and we can't be surprised or outraged when a study may show that it affects the outcomes of baseball games?
2007-08-15 11:00:24
149.   Jeteupthemiddle
Thanks for the help guys.
2007-08-15 11:00:39
150.   RIYank
Bedard is good.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-08-15 11:00:59
151.   williamnyy23
146 Do you think that 1 in 700 pitches points to bias? Also, are you comfortable that enough variables have been normalized to make comparisons meaningful? I say No to both questions.
2007-08-15 11:01:23
152.   weeping for brunnhilde
129 Fair enough.

Nothing wrong with that, but again, it sounds fairly pedestrian.

Was the point to study bias in general, by looking specifically at racial bias, or was the point to study racial bias, in an attempt to answer the implicit question: Are umpires racist?

Just not sure about why the researcher felt this particular study would be of value in the first place or what body of research or conversation s/he was responding to or engaging with.

2007-08-15 11:01:30
153.   yankz
150 That last pitch to Molina was just unfair. He had no chance.
2007-08-15 11:02:52
154.   NJYankee41
I hate Gameday. Molina's at-bat just disappeared as if it never happened. This happens all the time.
2007-08-15 11:03:11
155.   Schteeve
146 So the studies findings are statistically significant to with in 99% confidence? I don't believe that.
2007-08-15 11:04:05
156.   weeping for brunnhilde
151 But william, before this debate can be productively resolved, there needs to be agreement as to terms.

What is "bias?"

To me, it's relative, so sure, 1 in 700 pitches can point to bias. The question isn't whether it represents bias, but the question is whether that bias is consequential. I.e., is urgent redress merited or not?

That's not a question that can be answered statistically.

It's an ethical judgment.

2007-08-15 11:04:20
157.   Schteeve
149 Bedard fanned Molina and made him look like a little leaguer doing it. Strike three was a breaking ball that had Molina way behind and over top of the ball.

Melky just walked...

2007-08-15 11:05:51
158.   weeping for brunnhilde
Betamit swings over the top of a 1-1 junk ball down and in.


2007-08-15 11:06:20
159.   williamnyy23
148 Are you kidding? My point is I don't think this study comes close to revealing underlying racism in baseball. The idea that a 1 in 700 pitch discrepancy indicates bias is ridiculous. What makes the study provocative to me is that there are people who will come away with the sentiment you expressed.
2007-08-15 11:06:20
160.   weeping for brunnhilde
Fastball misses low and in, 2-2.
2007-08-15 11:06:52
161.   fansince77
Would much rather see Cano than Bettimit here. Bettimit is a lefty hitter...Cano is a crazy free swinger where anything can happen!
2007-08-15 11:07:03
162.   weeping for brunnhilde
Betamit looks at a good fastball in at the knees.

Should have swung, but it was a good pitch.

2007-08-15 11:07:17
163.   yankz
Bedard's only 25...when's he a FA?
2007-08-15 11:07:26
164.   Schteeve
Betemit gone looking on a beautiful pitch down and in.
2007-08-15 11:07:33
165.   yankz
Eh, read the wrong number, he's actually 28.
2007-08-15 11:07:37
166.   williamnyy23
I think Betemit against Bedard was a pretty obvious bad match up. Oh well.
2007-08-15 11:07:53
167.   ny2ca2dc
betimit wuz robbed
2007-08-15 11:07:53
168.   weeping for brunnhilde
Derek, off-balance again, taps it weakly foul up the third-base line.
2007-08-15 11:08:40
169.   weeping for brunnhilde
Derek fights off a good fastball up and away.


2007-08-15 11:09:19
170.   Schteeve
And now MLBtv is crashing on I don't know what's going on.
2007-08-15 11:09:26
171.   weeping for brunnhilde
Doesn't bite at a big sloppy breaking ball coming down and in towards his shoes.


2007-08-15 11:09:37
172.   fansince77
Time to start the runner!
2007-08-15 11:10:04
173.   fansince77
Worst case Jeter leads off the next
2007-08-15 11:10:04
174.   weeping for brunnhilde
Derek watches a fastball low.


2007-08-15 11:10:21
175.   rbj
Alright, what's going on here, did the Yankee bats get lost somehow before yesterday's game? Don't mean to alarm anyone, but Yanks only had two hits yesterday and so far it's a no hitter for Bedard today.
2007-08-15 11:10:25
176.   weeping for brunnhilde
Fights off another fastball up and away.
2007-08-15 11:10:48
177.   fansince77
Melk's gottago.
2007-08-15 11:11:01
178.   YankeeInMichigan
110 From some reason, Detroiters define a "coney" as a hot dog with chile. Most of them probably don't even know where Coney Island is.
2007-08-15 11:11:32
179.   ny2ca2dc
175 Cabrera & Bedard have that in them
2007-08-15 11:11:35
180.   51cq24
is this umpire canadian?
2007-08-15 11:11:39
181.   weeping for brunnhilde
Derek takes strike three on the inside corner as Melky takes off.

Same pitch that got Betamit.

Three outs.

2007-08-15 11:11:40
182.   YankeeInMichigan
110 From some reason, Detroiters define a "coney" as a hot dog with chile. Most of them probably don't even know where Coney Island is.
2007-08-15 11:11:41
183.   fansince77
What are u waitinfor Joe?
2007-08-15 11:11:43
184.   yankz
Has Jeter ever been tossed?

Still being no-hit. Yahoo.

2007-08-15 11:11:52
185.   Schteeve
Jeter gone looking. Melky was running.
2007-08-15 11:12:20
186.   ny2ca2dc
God, jeter gets robbed same as betemit. Why the hell isn't Phil getting these pitches
2007-08-15 11:12:20
187.   Eirias
5-0? Thank you, Tampa. I take back everything bad that I have ever said about you. That said, there are still five innings for me to hate you again.
2007-08-15 11:12:22
188.   pwicked
12 straight... Somebody hit the wrong switch.
2007-08-15 11:12:35
189.   Schteeve
Dear Everyone, "B-E-T-E-M-I-T"



2007-08-15 11:12:39
190.   fansince77
That's two pitches this inning that the UMPIRE has given Bedard on the inside corner. Hughes has yet to get that call THIS IS BULLSHIT! That was a game changing bullshit call!
2007-08-15 11:12:49
191.   yankz
Via Pete: The Yankees have three hits (all singles) and one run in their last 16 innings.
2007-08-15 11:12:50
192.   williamnyy23
At least Bedard is up to 53 pitches.
2007-08-15 11:13:49
193.   fansince77
Correction to [190} I should have said "off" the inside corner.
2007-08-15 11:14:01
194.   weeping for brunnhilde
That was a strike, Derek.

Same pitch he took in 2002 against Percival in that epic ab.

2007-08-15 11:14:06
195.   williamnyy23
180 funny.
2007-08-15 11:14:09
196.   ny2ca2dc
190 Which was the game changer, the one's Phil ain't getting, or the two the struck out Jeter & Betemit?

That'd be an agreement.

2007-08-15 11:14:10
197.   E-Rocker
Well I guess this is the "Lumber Slumber" that is long overdue. 12 innings, no runs
2007-08-15 11:14:10
198.   Schteeve
190 It's because the ump is German-Irish and Hughes is Austrian-Danish.


2007-08-15 11:14:32
199.   yankz
53 pitches through 3 for Bedard. Stick to the Boston formula: keep it close till you get to the pen.
2007-08-15 11:14:44
200.   Chyll Will
70 I know this is waaaay late, but...
Crystal Meth Cupcakes!
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-08-15 11:15:11
201.   fansince77
Just saw the overhead on the Jeter Pitch.

FUCK this Umpire that was INSIDE more than I thought!

2007-08-15 11:15:16
202.   weeping for brunnhilde
3-2 on Millar.
2007-08-15 11:15:20
203.   Schteeve
197 Yup, this is exactly why the Yankees should never score more than 6 runs in any game. Eventually, they'll run out of runs.
2007-08-15 11:15:30
204.   Mike T
Damn, Bedard is a hell of a pitcher.
2007-08-15 11:15:34
205.   weeping for brunnhilde
Millar takes a nice rip at the 3-2.

He's looking good.

2007-08-15 11:16:06
206.   weeping for brunnhilde
Popped up.

Alex makes the grab in foul ground.

Pitch was high, probably ball four.

2007-08-15 11:16:19
207.   YankeeInMichigan
On the bright side:
a) Bedard's pitch count (53) is almost as high as Hughes'.
b) Matsui comes up next inning, and he's got 7 dingers against lefties (including Santana). Now is the time.
2007-08-15 11:16:44
208.   Schteeve
Meanwhile the Ultimate Warrior is up, Hughes has him 3-2, and then gets him to pop out to Alex at 3rd.
2007-08-15 11:16:48
209.   weeping for brunnhilde
Breaking ball strike one over the dish to Huff.
2007-08-15 11:17:18
210.   weeping for brunnhilde
Fastball low and a little in, smacked through the right side for a hit.
2007-08-15 11:17:29
211.   ChrisS
So is Hughes just all over the place or is he getting squeezed, because he seems to be running up an awful lot of 3-ball counts.
2007-08-15 11:17:35
212.   yankz
Cano woulda had that.
2007-08-15 11:17:38
213.   RIYank
151 Sorry, I'm having nasty isp problems.

Yes, of course I think it indicates bias. Not with certainty, but you don't get certainty in science.

I don't have any idea what you mean by "normalized" here.

2007-08-15 11:17:54
214.   Schteeve
Aubrey Huff and Puff singles.
2007-08-15 11:17:57
215.   williamnyy23
There's no shame getting shut down by Bedard, but a the prospect of a game like this is exactly why the Yankees were foolish to field a substandard team last night.
2007-08-15 11:18:03
216.   weeping for brunnhilde
Mora steps in.

First pitch breaking ball over the dish, like the last one, but Mora's ready.

He hammers it into left for a hit.

2007-08-15 11:18:44
217.   weeping for brunnhilde
212 I think you're right.
2007-08-15 11:18:47
218.   Schteeve
Mora up, singles to left. First and second 2 out.
2007-08-15 11:19:04
219.   yankz
2007-08-15 11:19:30
220.   Schteeve
The pen is gonna have to give us some strong work today.
2007-08-15 11:19:56
221.   Schteeve
Hughes just got the call on the pitch that Kd Betemit and Jeter.
2007-08-15 11:20:08
222.   yankz
weeping, if you're getting tired, I highly recommend the RLYW liveblog for every game. They're hilarious and informative.
2007-08-15 11:20:31
223.   yankz
I recommend that for people who can't watch, of course.
2007-08-15 11:20:36
224.   williamnyy23
213 What I mean is maybe that 1 out of 700 pitches is more the result of a flaws in the study than an umpire's bias. I just find it hard to believe that if bias was really at work, it would only emerge in 1 out of every 700 pitches.

I wonder what would be the result if the authors defined three random player/umpire groups and reported the results. I wouldn't be surprised if they reached a similar conclusion.

2007-08-15 11:20:56
225.   weeping for brunnhilde
Damn it.

Breaking ball in the dirt, gets away from Molina.

Second and third, one out.


2007-08-15 11:21:15
226.   Raf
52 After what happened in Bridgeport last night, you'd think cooler heads would prevail.
2007-08-15 11:21:19
227.   Mike T
Wild pitch or passed ball?
2007-08-15 11:21:26
228.   OldYanksFan
For an little more ESPN silliness, and along the lines of the Torre 'BFOG' barometer, there is an article called:
"No pain, no game for these hard-nosed players"

So, how do all the wussies on the Yankees fare?

2007-08-15 11:21:37
229.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oooh, clutch pitch.

Beautiful fastball on the outside corner freezes Bacco.

Nice, nice pitch.

Oh, actually, it wasn't on the corner, it was over the dish.

Lots of movement, though.

2007-08-15 11:21:46
230.   yankz
Moving fastball for the clutch K.
2007-08-15 11:21:50
231.   Eirias
226 What happened in Bridgeport?
2007-08-15 11:21:56
232.   weeping for brunnhilde
Breaking ball to Redman, low and in.


2007-08-15 11:22:00
233.   Schteeve
Bako watched a pitch go by that even I would have swung at.
2007-08-15 11:22:23
234.   weeping for brunnhilde
Fastball fouled off down the left field line, hit fairly hard.


2007-08-15 11:22:37
235.   yankz
Why does Matsui wear such loose hats?
2007-08-15 11:23:01
236.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice big breaking ball, outside corner.


2007-08-15 11:23:09
237.   Schteeve
Redman fouls one off to the Bartman zone.
2007-08-15 11:23:41
238.   Schteeve
235 Because he has so much hair and a giant head?
2007-08-15 11:23:44
239.   Mike T
Tampa is mowing down the Sox just like yesterday, only today they may have enough runs to hold on.
2007-08-15 11:23:47
240.   yankz
God dammit.
2007-08-15 11:24:10
241.   ny2ca2dc
there's our sweet defensive 1B...
2007-08-15 11:24:30
242.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh, no!!!

What a fiasco!

Hughs went to the well once too often with that breaking ball.

Smacked hard to Phillips, who fields, but Hughes hesitates going to cover first.

The flip gets away from Hughes, both runners score.

2007-08-15 11:24:30
243.   Schteeve
With that, I'm done updating. Terrible defensive play.
2007-08-15 11:24:43
244.   yankz
238 It's gotta be the hair, unless his head is SO big that it doesn't even go down at all.
2007-08-15 11:24:46
245.   weeping for brunnhilde
Flyball to Matsui for out number three.
2007-08-15 11:24:53
246.   Zack
Well, today's game don't look so good...
2007-08-15 11:25:28
247.   OldYanksFan
What a shitty was to give up 2 runs.
2007-08-15 11:25:28
248.   RIYank
Dang, so close to getting out of that one without damage!


2007-08-15 11:26:24
249.   yankz
What was that, another 20 pitches? Yikes.
2007-08-15 11:26:30
250.   Mike T
3-0 deficit against Bedard. This is a little disconcerting.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-08-15 11:26:39
251.   RIYank
Oh, come on, that wasn't Phillips' fault, it was Hughes'.
2007-08-15 11:26:42
252.   tommyl
246 We'll see, its still early and only down 3 runs. If we don't get a hit, its really irrelevant how well Phil pitches. On the plus side, we might get an Edwar sighting today!
2007-08-15 11:26:50
253.   Shaun P
What the crunk? 7 fly ball outs for Hughes, vs 1 ground ball out? That is not like him at all.
2007-08-15 11:26:53
254.   rbj
2007-08-15 11:26:57
255.   spufi2007
Good night everybody!

No way we're going to touch Bedard today. 3 runs should be more than enough.

So, another series where we lose 2 out of 3 to Ballamore. Are we, what, 3-8 against Baltimore this season? Seems like 2 years ago when we went 8-11 against the Rays.

2007-08-15 11:27:14
256.   fansince77
This game is close to over...but I do have to say that Hughes at his worst (today) is as good as MANY at their best. He should be at 1-0 right now- so I'll still be VERY optimistic about the future.
2007-08-15 11:27:23
257.   weeping for brunnhilde
I think Hughes hesitated because of how hard the ball was hit.

I thought it was a hit off the bat, but Phillips made a nice play to stop it going through.

2007-08-15 11:27:25
258.   OldYanksFan
It looked like a very good play by Andy. Phil was a little slow getting over. It may have been an infield hit anyway, but the error really hurt.
2007-08-15 11:28:02
259.   weeping for brunnhilde
Derek singles past Tejada, going to his left.
2007-08-15 11:28:22
260.   yankz
A single! I'll take it!
2007-08-15 11:28:26
261.   ChrisS
And there was much rejoicing.
2007-08-15 11:28:36
262.   weeping for brunnhilde
Hideki looks at a fastball for strike one.
2007-08-15 11:28:48
263.   Raf
231 Jose Offerman hit a HR, and was hit his next AB. He showed his displeasure by attacking the pitcher, Matt Beech, with the bat. He got the catcher, John Nathans, on the backswing. Beech has a couple of broken fingers.
2007-08-15 11:28:56
264.   yankz
259 I don't think A-rod would appreciate that very much.
2007-08-15 11:29:00
265.   Mike T
A-Rod breaks up the no hitter. Now hopefully we can manufacture some runs.
2007-08-15 11:29:11
266.   rconn23
You're not going to make the playoffs or win in the playoffs if your pitchers allow the ton of baserunners that ours do. I have high hopes for Hughes, but his velocity is way under what was touted and for this year he is where he is pitching, a back of the rotation starter.
2007-08-15 11:29:30
267.   weeping for brunnhilde
0-2 to Hideki.
2007-08-15 11:29:45
268.   SF Yanks
255 Like we can't get to the pen? Damn you're negative. Spread your negativity elsewhere. What, they never come back from THREE runs before? Pfft!
2007-08-15 11:30:09
269.   weeping for brunnhilde
Alex steals second, though it was too close for comfort.

They almost had him.

2007-08-15 11:30:13
270.   tommyl
Hobbs breaks up the no-no. Though I give myself credit for 252 .
2007-08-15 11:30:22
271.   RIYank
224 I don't want to be obsessive about this, but:

"I just find it hard to believe that if bias was really at work, it would only emerge in 1 out of every 700 pitches."

That doesn't make sense to me. Bias comes in all kinds of degrees. Why do you think it is impossible for there to be small biases?

"I wonder what would be the result if the authors defined three random player/umpire groups and reported the results. I wouldn't be surprised if they reached a similar conclusion."

The chance of that happening would be less than .01. That's what the significance test tells us.

2007-08-15 11:30:40
272.   yankz
2007-08-15 11:30:58
273.   OldYanksFan
Meanwhile, on that other REALLY GOOD team, Dice-K has given up 5 ERs in 4IP, and the Sox have POUNDED OUT 1 hit!

But at least Tina is showing a little cleavage.

2007-08-15 11:31:13
274.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh, fuck.

A terrible, terrible swing by Hideki.

A big breaking ball tailing away and he just kind of flailed at it for a weak grounder back to the pitcher.

Alex holds at second, Jorgie up.

2007-08-15 11:31:36
275.   Raf
265 With the way things are going, they may have to.
2007-08-15 11:31:54
276.   yankz
Remember the 9-0 game last year?

Remember the 6-2 game in Cleveland back in April?

2007-08-15 11:32:04
277.   weeping for brunnhilde
This clown keeps throwing cookies for strike one.

Matsui took strike one he could have driven and now Jorgie.

0-2 to Jorgie who lines one foul the other way.

Nice wood.

2007-08-15 11:32:35
278.   Eirias
Kay is down with OPP? That is quite disturbing.
2007-08-15 11:32:50
279.   weeping for brunnhilde
Jorgie takes a one up and in for a ball.


2007-08-15 11:33:13
280.   yankz
278 Typo or PTI reference?
2007-08-15 11:33:24
281.   weeping for brunnhilde

Jorgie's way, way out in front of the breaking ball.

Another weak-ass tapper back to the pitcher.

Two away, Alex moves to third.

2007-08-15 11:34:03
282.   Yankee Fan In Boston
anyone else notice that bedard keeps rubbing his pitching hand on his forearm? when the gambler was caught cheating last season, people said that some guys spray their arm with clear gunk (insect repellent?) to use in the game to make their fingers tacky...

alert oliver stone.

2007-08-15 11:34:30
283.   Sliced Bread
Phillips has made at least two nice backhanded grabs today. Unfortunately he and Hughes only converted one of them into an out.

The Yanks are too weak in the bottom of the order today to make Bedard sweat. Unless Joe brings a couple lefties in this will be a cakewalk for Bedard.

A-Rod to third with two out. Crucial RBI opportunity here for Phillips who fouls off strike one...

and strike two...

2007-08-15 11:34:33
284.   OldYanksFan
Question: Just what does this team need to accomplish before we:
1) Allow them to lose a game without giving up on the PS.
2) Allow them to get behind without ASSUMING they will lose.

I can't believe some of you are Yankee Fans.

2007-08-15 11:34:41
285.   williamnyy23
271 I'll let it drop too, but I just don't think the measured bias suggests racial preference, mostly because it ignores so many variables.
2007-08-15 11:35:07
286.   tommyl
266 So 6 shutout innings against Cleveland? a no hit bid into the 7th against Texas? Yeah, lets give up on him because he's given up 3 runs, 2 of on an infield hit/error. The kid is 21 years old for chrissakes.

What exactly do you expect? 8 shutout innings every time? Go look up Rocket's first year. His ERA was over 4 IIRC.

2007-08-15 11:35:12
287.   Eirias
280 Neither. It is the Ontario Provincial Police, of course.
2007-08-15 11:36:06
288.   weeping for brunnhilde
Please, Andy.

Drive this run in.

Basehit up the middle.

Stay back.

2007-08-15 11:37:04
289.   Sliced Bread
Nertz, Andy
2007-08-15 11:37:14
290.   williamnyy23
The poor lineup construction is really going to hurt now.

284 Part of the problem is that the Yankees dug such a big hole they have no margin for error. Also, after forfeiting last night's game, it isn't easy to just "allow them to lose" another game.

2007-08-15 11:37:14
291.   RIYank
Okay, that was our break-up-the-no-no inning. Next will be our shut-out-ending inning.
2007-08-15 11:37:25
292.   ny2ca2dc
271 "The chance of that happening would be less than .01. That's what the significance test tells us."

That is 100% wrong. That is NOT what statistical significance is all about. A flawed study that fails to isolate the variable that's ostensibly in question is flawed, regardless of the output of the significance calculations. There is no formula to evaluate methodology when the subjects & study are as nebulous as human relations. Saying a 1 in 700 effect is a slam dunk case for racism on a non-peer reviewed, first iteration study, is quite bold.

2007-08-15 11:37:40
293.   weeping for brunnhilde

Phillips jammed a little bit, fists it weakly to second.

Thirteen scorless innings.

God, it's only 3-0.

We have to win this baseball game.

2007-08-15 11:37:59
294.   yankz
Yup, Clemens was below average his first season (ERA+ = 96).

287 Ah, as long as it's not the Office of Pesticide Programs.

Gotta love

2007-08-15 11:38:37
295.   Bags
182 Hey. Who you calling a Detroiter? I live in Brooklyn...

I still want three coney dogs though. The Detroit kind.

2007-08-15 11:39:41
296.   tommyl
How exactly are the Orioles such a bad team? They are way under .500. They have 2 young stud pitchers in Guthrie and Bedard, a decent one in Cabrera. Decent hitters, a star SS. One of the best 2B in the game. They just swept the Sox, look like they are going to take 2 of 3 off us. How do they lose so much?
2007-08-15 11:39:53
297.   RIYank
285 Oh. Which variables does it ignore?

I mean, all studies ignore a lot of variables, so whether that's really a criticism depends on which ones you mean.

Okay, come on, Phil, this is a big run you're going to prevent now. Don't worry too much about the runner...

2007-08-15 11:40:09
298.   yankz
Give 'em hell, Molina.
2007-08-15 11:41:26
299.   yankz
Totally didn't see that SB coming. (Note: I did.)
2007-08-15 11:41:49
300.   ChrisS
Bring on Joba and Edwar.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-08-15 11:42:16
301.   weeping for brunnhilde
285 The problem, perhaps, is that "racial preference" is a chimera. It's just so hard to quantify.

It exists, of course, but how do you honestly control for such a thing?

I don't know, I think the problem is it's not something that lends itself to "scientific" investigation, presuming you believe social science to be science in the first place.

I'm just not so sure why "racial bias" needs to be quantified.

It exists and people experience it all the time, but is it really necessary to pick it apart and declare: "Aha!"?

Studies like this run a great risk of being conducted for all sorts of polemical reasons, which is why I'm not sure what the point is.

Oh, good God, Derek, wtf was that?

The fucking wheels are coming off again!

2007-08-15 11:42:16
302.   yankz
Sloppy, sloppy couple of games.
2007-08-15 11:42:24
303.   williamnyy23
297 Here are a few off the top of my head: experience of umpires; experience of pitchers; relationship between umpires and catchers and the time in the game when pitches are missed. I am sure one could come up with a much more extensive list.
2007-08-15 11:42:43
304.   ny2ca2dc
297 "Oh. Which variables does it ignore? I mean, all studies ignore a lot of variables, so whether that's really a criticism depends on which ones you mean."

That's pretty much the point I'm trying to make in 292 . There are lots of variables in life, and since that's what this study is trying to take a look at, one has to be really careful and generally look for overwhelming evidence - not 1 in 700.

2007-08-15 11:43:04
305.   yankz
Big K + GIDP coming up.
2007-08-15 11:43:15
306.   RIYank
292 Uh, sorry, you're completely wrong.
Maybe you'd better read what I said again. What I said is exactly what significance at the .01 level tells us.

If you think the study is 'flawed' because it 'fails to isolate the variable it studies', you're free to give some kind of argument for that, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said about statistical significance.

2007-08-15 11:43:16
307.   weeping for brunnhilde
OYF, it's one thing to lose, it's another to suddenly revert to the Yankees in Colorado.
2007-08-15 11:43:25
308.   Zack
Ugh, this game is u-g-l-y in a totally different way than yesterday. Why the hell the Os are playing us so hard this year, who knows...
2007-08-15 11:43:40
309.   williamnyy23
Memo to more midweek day games! It's #$%^ing frustrating to see how poorly they play in these matinees. more next season.
2007-08-15 11:43:54
310.   yankz
The hat stayed on! The hat stayed on!!
2007-08-15 11:44:02
311.   Shaun P
The Yanks' defense hasn't exactly been stellar the last couple of days.
2007-08-15 11:44:17
312.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh, great, now something's up with Derek.

Joe and Donahue check him out...

2007-08-15 11:44:39
313.   yankz
309 Cashman controls schedules?
2007-08-15 11:44:51
314.   ny2ca2dc
306 I think i did mis-read your comment (how sweet of me), see 304
2007-08-15 11:44:53
315.   Zack
Oh great, now DJ is hit...
2007-08-15 11:44:57
316.   Shaun P
Gameday says "Injury Delay". Someone PLEASE tell me it wasn't serious - and it wasn't a Yankee.
2007-08-15 11:44:57
317.   weeping for brunnhilde
311 Nor has their offense.

That's the problem.

It's one thing to get beat, it's another to start getting sloppy.

2007-08-15 11:45:00
318.   Zack
rather, hurt
2007-08-15 11:45:07
319.   RIYank
303 That's a good list, but I don't get it. How could those things in any way explain the correlation between probability of calling a strike and match of pitcher's race with ump's race?
2007-08-15 11:45:38
320.   Zack
Staying in the game at least
2007-08-15 11:45:48
321.   weeping for brunnhilde
Fuck, Millar rips the first pitch foul.

He's hitting the ball hard.

I don't like this.

2007-08-15 11:45:57
322.   Sliced Bread
looks like Jeter is ok. Might have rolled his ankle? or clipped it with his other foot on the booted ball play?
2007-08-15 11:46:03
323.   williamnyy23
313 The home team controls the game times...and Cashman is the GM, so I'd imagine he has a say.
2007-08-15 11:46:23
324.   yankz
316 Something happened to Jeter's ankle, not exactly sure what. He waved the trainer and Torre off, but he'd do that even if he went blind.
2007-08-15 11:46:35
325.   cult of basebaal
313 cashman controls the weather AND the black helicopters ...

lovely job y'all have been doing here without me ...

2007-08-15 11:46:36
326.   RIYank
309 It is amazing.
Probably just a spurious correlation, though ;-)
2007-08-15 11:46:41
327.   weeping for brunnhilde
0-1 breaking ball also hit fairly hard, foul.

Millar's not fooled by it.


2007-08-15 11:46:48
328.   yankz
323 Oh, thanks, I didn't know that.

Maybe it's his anniversary?

2007-08-15 11:47:01
329.   pistolpete
Did I ever mention that I HATE playing the Orioles lately?

Who the hell do they lose to? West coast teams, perhaps?

Because against the Yankees & the Sox, they always look like they're better than 3rd or 4th place.

2007-08-15 11:47:14
330.   YankeeInMichigan
312 A gave a sigh of relief when you wrote "Derek." When I saw "injury delay" on Gameday, I feared Matsui or Hughes. Derek's injuries are always short-lived.
2007-08-15 11:47:49
331.   RIYank
325 Sorry, we got distracted.
I'll bear down now.
2007-08-15 11:47:52
332.   weeping for brunnhilde
Breaking ball low and away.

1-2 on Millar.

2007-08-15 11:48:02
333.   OldYanksFan
TB plates run #6.
2007-08-15 11:48:23
334.   tommyl
329 You know, in a couple of years, this Baltimore team could be a real threat. If they firm up their BP, get a couple more bats they could be formidable.
2007-08-15 11:49:34
335.   weeping for brunnhilde
Marcacas steals second without a throw.

Hughes' pitch is a breaking ball high.

2-2, infield in.

Breaking ball popped up, Duncan catches, throws, out at the plate!!!

2007-08-15 11:49:39
336.   RIYank
No way!
Shelley, very nice.

(Fly out, thrown out at home, in case anyone still needs the play by play.)

2007-08-15 11:49:53
337.   51cq24
2007-08-15 11:49:58
338.   Sliced Bread
with the shades and the smeared eye-black Millar looks like Alice Cooper on 'roids.

Shell-ey! Shell-ey! Nice throw!

2007-08-15 11:50:19
339.   yankz


I thought he had NO chance.

2007-08-15 11:50:22
340.   weeping for brunnhilde
I'm amazed Molina was there to catch that, nice play.

Bad throw, but Molina alertly went and got it a couple steps up the line.

Nice play.

2007-08-15 11:50:27
341.   pistolpete
You just knew the Mazzone effect would kick in sooner or later. Their bats were always a problem for the opposition, but until the past few years it was always a cakewalk hitting against their staff.
2007-08-15 11:50:39
342.   ny2ca2dc
2nd & 3rd again, with less than 2 outs (1), on another SB, by Markakis....

And now a Sac Fly... OH SHIT, GOT HIM!!! Gunned Down! Someone's been watching Melky!

Make up for this Bad News Bears nonsense a little bit.

2007-08-15 11:50:45
343.   tommyl
So this Duncan kid can play RF, hmmmm....
2007-08-15 11:51:08
344.   Jersey
Phil is at 94 pitches after the effective DP. Does he start the next inning?
2007-08-15 11:51:16
345.   cult of basebaal

run for your lives, yankees, fear the forearm bash!!!

2007-08-15 11:51:35
346.   Mike T
Tampa 6-0 Boston mid 6th
2007-08-15 11:51:36
347.   rbj
Dang, I like the "Millar flied into double play right to catcher" description.

Time to get some runs.

2007-08-15 11:51:52
348.   weeping for brunnhilde
339 I know.

Let's hope this turns things around.

It's time to start playing baseball, Team!

Let's go *YANK*ees!

2007-08-15 11:51:57
349.   Yankee Fan In Boston
duncan has a cannon. that was amazing.
2007-08-15 11:51:59
350.   tommyl
341 Heaven help us of Daniel Cabrera gets his head out of his ass.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-08-15 11:52:01
351.   pistolpete
344 I say he goes one more with the 'pen warming in the 6th.
2007-08-15 11:52:27
352.   ny2ca2dc
Rays just tacked on another run; 6-0, middle 6th, DiceK was in. for the 6th.
2007-08-15 11:52:59
353.   Jersey
351 I'd have to agree. We'll see what happens.

Even though he hasn't been real sharp, I do like seeing him out there, I do.

2007-08-15 11:53:01
354.   cult of basebaal
how many times do you see that happen, the guy who makes the great play in the field, leadsoff the next inning ...

[/cliched baseball announcer voice]

2007-08-15 11:53:05
355.   weeping for brunnhilde

Wrapped hard through the left side for Shelley!

Come on, Team, let's do it!

2007-08-15 11:53:09
356.   yankz
Of course Duncan leads off with a hit.
2007-08-15 11:53:41
357.   williamnyy23
319 Some examples…let's say most of the pitches missed are late in games (presumably because the umpires get tired). Now, let's also assume a higher percentage of starters are white (and relievers are non-white). Because most umpires are white, that could result in white umpires calling a higher percentage of balls against non-white pitchers.

Also, if white umpires and white pitchers both have more experience, the former may be used to how the latter pitches, leading them to call more pitches strikes.

2007-08-15 11:53:44
358.   Sliced Bread
Kay interviewed Ethan Hawke for Centerstage.

Molina reminds me of Enrique Wilson in the batter's box.

2007-08-15 11:53:46
359.   tommyl
354 I'd say 1/8.5 (in a DH) league ;)
2007-08-15 11:53:49
360.   Yankee Fan In Boston
...great play to end an inning and leads off with a hit... i love it when that happens.
2007-08-15 11:53:50
361.   ny2ca2dc
Maybe Shelly not so overmatched afterall... Ripped a single thru SS/3B hole
2007-08-15 11:54:34
362.   weeping for brunnhilde

Fuck, out at second.

No, I disagree.

They botched that.

He never had control of the ball.

2007-08-15 11:54:38
363.   OldYanksFan
307 We've played 13 shitty innings! So what? I once saw Michael Jordan miss TWO SHOTS IN A ROW! Even Rocky took a few consecutive punches. Really....
2007-08-15 11:54:40
364.   yankz
Really rough slide from Duncan.
2007-08-15 11:54:51
365.   weeping for brunnhilde
Terrible fucking call.
2007-08-15 11:55:16
366.   williamnyy23
Froemming can't retire fast enough.
2007-08-15 11:55:18
367.   weeping for brunnhilde
364 Yes, that was nice.
2007-08-15 11:55:29
368.   tommyl
Melky walk, Wilson 3-run jack...pretty please....with sugar on top...
2007-08-15 11:55:34
369.   pistolpete
Isn't Bedard in a contract year?

My checkbook-minded Yankee fan mentality says to do whatever it takes & get this guy, but then there's Jaret Wright, a former Mazzone disciple who looked amazing the year before we signed him.

2007-08-15 11:55:55
370.   yankz
Shelley's gotta be careful. I think I learned that move back when I was going for my green belt.
2007-08-15 11:55:57
371.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh, God.

This is painful.

2007-08-15 11:56:19
372.   Yankee Fan In Boston
364 nobody ever accused duncan of being graceful.
2007-08-15 11:56:35
373.   tommyl
364 I think Shelly should just forearm bash the SS for making a nice play. That'll teach him to hold onto the ball when he's running.
2007-08-15 11:56:55
374.   RIYank
Cripes, we were just intent on giving them a double play.
2007-08-15 11:57:01
375.   cult of basebaal
364 again?

he'd better watch it ... teams are gonna start looking for payback

though maybe a brawl today could work to our advantage ... i just know Krazy's been saving up a good season's worth of ass-kicking rage, getting him suspended would be worth it ...

2007-08-15 11:57:18
376.   ny2ca2dc
That was un-inspiring. Plenty of baserunners, even lead off ones, and a lot of nothing to follow it.

Bedard is a free agent after '09. Theres a nice fluff piece on him in today's NY Times.

2007-08-15 11:57:39
377.   williamnyy23
363 Two losses to Baltimore could mean no playoffs. It maybe harsh, but that's what happens when you play .500 for 3 months. For two straight days, the Yankees have put a subpar team on the field, so I guess Torre/Cashman don't share my urgency.
2007-08-15 11:58:01
378.   tommyl
Sometimes I do chuckle at PeteAbe:

Hideous call by Bruce Froemming there. Not only was Cabrera not on the bag, he never had the ball. Other than that, Duncan was out.


2007-08-15 12:00:05
379.   pistolpete
377 Boston down 6-0 going into the 7th and I think the Twins win again. We'll be okay, but I still HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE playing Baltimore!

And 6 times more after today, too - UGH.
2007-08-15 12:00:11
380.   weeping for brunnhilde
Solid outing by Hughes, btw.

This is the kind of game we must win.

Come on, Team, step it up!

2007-08-15 12:01:12
381.   yankz
I love FJM:

"The Yankees also have a payroll that exceeds the GDP of Chad. The Yankees have seventeen All-Stars at every position, and several more serving as groundskeepers just for the fuck of it. The Yankees once battled the X-Men to a standstill, even with the Phoenix fighting for the mutant side.* Comparing the Tribe to the Yankees, I think, isn't going to be much of a consolation to Wilmington Kurt."

IIRC, A-rod kicked Wolverine's ass. Jeter, however, took Storm out to dinner.

2007-08-15 12:01:27
382.   RIYank
357 Okay, I get those. But why would those effects go away in the presence of QuesTec?

By the way, I believe there's some evidence that umpires call more strikes late in games, especially in blow-outs. Not more balls. Also, your second possible confounding variable I would call an explanation of bias, rather than a substitute for bias.

2007-08-15 12:02:17
383.   Schteeve
Good to see Henn attacking the strike zone.
2007-08-15 12:02:18
384.   Yankee Fan In Boston
377 this isn't sudden death (yet). while we'd all like to see these guys play .725 ball for the remainder of the season, that is quite unlikely.

that said, it is only a 3 run lead.

what ever happened to the "don't stop believing" crowd?

2007-08-15 12:02:39
385.   Mike T
That's cool that our guys limited the O's to three runs so far, but the Yanks need to go back into the locker room and get their bats. This is ridiculous.

Nice seven pitch ownage by Sean Henn.

2007-08-15 12:03:28
386.   RIYank
I bet the O's re-sign Bedard. They have the bucks, and they know they need a new strategy.
2007-08-15 12:04:37
387.   ny2ca2dc
this is interesting, PeteA observes:

Hughes at home (3 games): 14 20 13 12 5 14

Hughes on the road (2 games): 12.1 4 1 1 4 12

Maybe the kid's gotta work out his nerves.

2007-08-15 12:04:53
388.   Yankee Fan In Boston
385 they're facing bedard. the guy has been incredible this season. cut them some slack. they can put a 4 spot on the board. i've seen 'em do it.
2007-08-15 12:05:06
389.   yankz
They need a long inning. Drive Bedard from the game.
2007-08-15 12:05:30
390.   ChrisS
384 Don't extrapolate the opinions of one or two nitwits on here to be a consensus.

3 runs is nothing, this is the same team that bounced back with 8 vs. the Sox.

2007-08-15 12:05:32
391.   williamnyy23
382 The whole QT point confounds seems to suggest that the bias is conscious.

Also, whether a substitute or an explanation, my point is I don't accept the conclusion that racism impacts MLB umpiring.

2007-08-15 12:05:49
392.   pistolpete
386 But just to think about 2010:


::shudder:: ;-)

2007-08-15 12:07:18
393.   Yankee Fan In Boston
390 i was speaking directly to a doubter and looking for the faithful. i know i'm not alone.
2007-08-15 12:07:37
394.   williamnyy23
Well...that Betemit experiment didn't work...predictably.
2007-08-15 12:08:02
395.   weeping for brunnhilde
Derek's really struggling.
2007-08-15 12:08:02
396.   yankz
390 Remember Cleveland!
2007-08-15 12:08:36
397.   cult of basebaal
bad day for the betemit bandit ... LHP are not his friends
2007-08-15 12:08:44
398.   yankz
I mean, the Cleveland game where they came back in the 9th.
2007-08-15 12:09:21
399.   Yankees Brasil
394 I thought Betemit was a much better hitter from the left side.. I don't get why he is hitting 2nd today
2007-08-15 12:09:35
400.   yankz
I wouldn't mind seeing Betemit play SS tomorrow vs. the righty.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-08-15 12:09:46
401.   Yankee Fan In Boston
396 i'm pretty sure that is ichiro's battle cry.
2007-08-15 12:10:00
402.   cult of basebaal
394 what "experiment" was that?
2007-08-15 12:10:10
403.   weeping for brunnhilde
390 Well, it's not nothing.

If the score were 8-5, I'd say three runs is nothing, but we've not scored in almost 15 innings.

That's significant.

2007-08-15 12:10:41
404.   OldYanksFan
377 Two loses to anyone at anytime could mean no post season. Yeah... so what's your point? After 162 games we will need a better record then Boston or a btter record then Seattle and Detroit or Cleveland.

Making proclaimations when we are tied for the WC AND ahead of both Detroit and Cleveland, with 50 games to go is kinda silly, isn't it?

$100m worth of Dice-K gave up 5 ERs today, while the Sox have pounded the shit out of 2 hits, against that awesome SP of Tampa Bay. Are you digging a grave for them next to ours?

2007-08-15 12:11:05
405.   yankz
401 hahahahaahahahaha! Hilarious.
2007-08-15 12:12:36
406.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice, Alex.

Good hitting.

2007-08-15 12:13:28
407.   weeping for brunnhilde
Bad swing by Hideki.

Follow Alex's lead, Hideki!

Up the middle.

2007-08-15 12:13:49
408.   OldYanksFan
And Phil Hughes gave up 2 ERs in 5 IP. Is it too late to trade him for Juan Pierre?

HA! Today ARod with as many hits as the ENTIRE RED SOX TEAM!

2007-08-15 12:13:51
409.   yankz
Ichiro is insane:
2007-08-15 12:14:11
410.   RIYank
391 Well, the QuesTec thing does strongly suggest that it is at least subject to control. Who knows what's conscious?

Anybody know Bedard's pitch count?

2007-08-15 12:14:22
411.   yankz
Oh, and the Cleveland quote:

""To tell the truth, I'm not excited to go to Cleveland, but we have to," Ichiro said through an interpreter. "If I ever saw myself saying I'm excited going to Cleveland, I'd punch myself in the face, because I'm lying.""

2007-08-15 12:14:59
412.   yankz
I swear, I knew that would happen.
2007-08-15 12:15:04
413.   weeping for brunnhilde
Terrible ab.

But my God!

He lost the ball!

What a break.

Terrible ab by Matsui, but Christ, let's make them pay!

2007-08-15 12:15:26
414.   JL25and3
369 , 386 Bedard's on a one-year contract, but this is only his 4th year of ML service. Two more years before free agency.
2007-08-15 12:15:28
415.   ChrisS
410 100 after the single by Mats
2007-08-15 12:16:03
416.   weeping for brunnhilde
Matsui loafing it to first, should have been on second.

I love Hideki, I'm not bashing him, but that was a really poor ab followed by really poor running.

That's the kind of stuff we can't have.

2007-08-15 12:16:16
417.   Yankee Fan In Boston
410 hovering around the century mark
2007-08-15 12:16:19
418.   yankz
Best of Ichiro:
2007-08-15 12:16:29
419.   RIYank
Hoey up. But didn't he pitch yesterday?
2007-08-15 12:17:06
420.   weeping for brunnhilde
All right.

Come on, Jorgie.

Dead red, I'd say.

BUt just take it up the middle.

2007-08-15 12:17:51
421.   yankz
Oh my god. You have to go to that 2nd Ichiro site. I'd post my favorites, but there are too damn many.
2007-08-15 12:18:07
422.   pwicked
Why didn't A-rod score?
2007-08-15 12:18:23
423.   weeping for brunnhilde

Jorgie's been swinging through fastballs right over the dish these past couple of days.

That was a very hittable pitch.

Damn it.

I'm so frustrated right now.

2007-08-15 12:18:29
424.   Yankee Fan In Boston

that hurt.

i admit it.

2007-08-15 12:18:30
425.   Sliced Bread
Good night.
Sleep tight.
Don't let the Bedard bugs bite.


2007-08-15 12:19:13
426.   williamnyy23
404 Is anyone making a point beyond it's shame this team is playing so poorly against an inferior opponent, assisted in part by an inferior lineup?
2007-08-15 12:19:14
427.   Jeteupthemiddle
ok, just got home.

finally able to watch (just saw Posada's strikeout)

Sterling said "Hughes is getting squeezed while Bedard is getting 2 inches off the plate."

Anyone know the truth?

2007-08-15 12:19:36
428.   pistolpete
And here come the Sawx.
2007-08-15 12:19:42
429.   Yankees Brasil
I just hope the Yankees get their bats back tomorrow..
2007-08-15 12:20:22
430.   rbj
Dang, the Yankees are getting shutout for the second day in a row.
2007-08-15 12:20:23
431.   weeping for brunnhilde
Here's what I don't get.

How is it that Jorgie makes contact on that 2-0 (or was it 2-1?) fastball high, out of the zone, but then fails to strike the fastball right there, as if placed on a tee?

Really, I just don't get it. Not a rhetorical question.

2007-08-15 12:20:37
432.   williamnyy23
402 Batting Betemit, a poor RH, second in the lineup.
2007-08-15 12:21:56
433.   OldYanksFan
oh oh... TB starting to puke. 2 run bomb by Tek. 2 out, 1 on, 6-2, bottom of the 7th.
2007-08-15 12:22:16
434.   RIYank
427 No idea. Seemed roughly equal to me, but I just can't tell.
2007-08-15 12:22:19
435.   Yankee Fan In Boston
418 brilliance.
2007-08-15 12:22:45
436.   yankz
431 I'll hazard a guess: Hitting major league fastballs isn't that easy. Just because you do it once doesn't mean you can do it again a few seconds later.

Not to mention, he might have been looking for something else.

Or Bedard is just a great pitcher and he's really hard to hit.

Why are people so quick to discredit (in this case Posada) but not give credit (Bedard)?

2007-08-15 12:23:45
437.   RIYank
431 Hitting baseballs is hard, especially when a good pitcher throws them. So, there's a lot of luck involved.
2007-08-15 12:24:11
438.   rbj
431 Because hitting a round ball with a round bat is really, really difficult. A 70% failure rate makes you a Hall of Famer.
2007-08-15 12:24:48
439.   williamnyy23
I'll say it one more time, but I can easily accept losing to Bedard and Verlander (should they lose tomorrow). That's why yesterday's use of Karstens still bothers me alot.
2007-08-15 12:24:48
440.   OldYanksFan
Shit! 2 out double! 6-3. Geez... these guys really ARE good.
2007-08-15 12:24:58
441.   rconn23
God, the Devil Rays are so atrocious. I hate them and I hate the fact that the Red Sox get to play them so much.
2007-08-15 12:27:30
442.   spufi2007
They don't get to play them any more than we do -- it's just they play them 40 times in the last 6 weeks of the season.
2007-08-15 12:27:30
443.   yankz
439 Who else should've started? Igawa maybe? Or Henn or Villone? Yeah, all of those would've been fantastic choices. Never mind that, when starting, Karstens has performed well (both last year and this year in rehab/ST). Nope, they should have called Igawa back up. Or, like I suggested yesterday, maybe Brower could go. He's good for a couple innings.
2007-08-15 12:27:39
444.   ny2ca2dc
Well, here's the bright side: Bedard is out of the game (he's gotta be), so hoping Henn gets it done here (and he's been doing pretty good so far, atta boy), all the big bats come in and spank that pen, which has been working lately...
2007-08-15 12:28:12
445.   RIYank
436 437 438 Hee hee.
2007-08-15 12:28:46
446.   rbj
Gee, didn't mean for it to sound like we're all piling on you, Weeping.
2007-08-15 12:29:03
447.   yankz
445 That was pretty cool.
2007-08-15 12:29:23
448.   yankz
446 Speak for yourself!

Kidding, weeping.

2007-08-15 12:29:23
449.   OldYanksFan
Here comes Bugs!
2007-08-15 12:29:51
450.   ny2ca2dc
Edwar! vs Tejada. Welcome back to the Bigs, kid.
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2007-08-15 12:29:56
451.   cult of basebaal
439 tell us how you really feel, again?
2007-08-15 12:29:58
452.   spufi2007
Question for you -- how do you insert the references to past comments?
2007-08-15 12:30:18
453.   spufi2007
Question for you -- how do you insert the references to past comments?
2007-08-15 12:30:54
454.   cult of basebaal
well ... at least joe's not burying him at the back of the pen, this time ...
2007-08-15 12:31:55
455.   yankz
Geez, he is skinny.
2007-08-15 12:32:00
456.   Jersey
Edwar's GameDay picture is awesome! He looks like he's about to hack someone to pieces.
2007-08-15 12:32:14
457.   Yankee Fan In Boston
453 put the # between [ ] those brackets there.
2007-08-15 12:32:36
458.   ny2ca2dc
hah. wasn't expecting that. first pitch, Tejada lifts one to Melky, 'can o corn'.
2007-08-15 12:33:14
459.   weeping for brunnhilde
436 437 438 I know it's hard. I know there's luck involved.

Those answers sound tautological to me, though.

2007-08-15 12:34:16
460.   Yankee Fan In Boston
459 great... now i have to get out a dictionary... thanks a lot...
2007-08-15 12:34:22
461.   weeping for brunnhilde
445-448. :)
2007-08-15 12:35:16
462.   SF Yanks
456 HaHaa! Just saw that. That's hilarious!
2007-08-15 12:35:43
463.   OldYanksFan
I have it on good authority that they put lead weights in Bug's cletes so he doesn't fly off the mound every pitch.
2007-08-15 12:35:46
464.   Raf
443 Or Clemens could've appealed the suspension.
2007-08-15 12:36:03
465.   ny2ca2dc
Oh no, Bedard is back out...
2007-08-15 12:36:37
466.   fansince77
And Andy hits another meaningless fly ball...sigh.
2007-08-15 12:36:39
467.   weeping for brunnhilde
436 Actually, I suspect you're right he was looking for something else, or that he kind of played it halfway.

The real question was about the fact that he managed to make contact on a pitch that's much harder to make contact on, i.e., the high fastball while failing to strike the easier-to-hit fastball over the dish.

Just saying "It's hard to hit a baseball" doesn't account for the difference, at least not satisfactorily.

2007-08-15 12:36:41
468.   RIYank
459 I assure you, they aren't tautological. (I happen to be an expert at that.)
2007-08-15 12:37:20
469.   pistolpete
465 Why wouldn't he be? He's shutting us down today, as he does every other time out.
2007-08-15 12:38:06
470.   fansince77
What's up with this assinine lineup today. I feel like the Yankees just gave away two games. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
2007-08-15 12:38:16
471.   Raf
466 On two pitches at that...
2007-08-15 12:38:35
472.   yankz
443 Wasn't it his decision not to? So how can you blame them for going with Karstens?
2007-08-15 12:38:36
473.   Yankees Brasil
469 Lefties in general don't have much problem shutting us down..
2007-08-15 12:38:56
474.   weeping for brunnhilde
468 Fair enough.
2007-08-15 12:39:16
475.   RIYank
467 Yes, and the answer (converged upon by three obvious geniuses independently) is that there is a lot of luck involved. It's like asking how I managed to throw double sixes early in the backgammon game but couldn't get them in the endgame when I really needed them. You aren't going to get an explanation that satisfies you, because it's a matter of luck.
2007-08-15 12:39:20
476.   fansince77
Yeah over the outside corner but how about recongnizing that the guy is like 6'5" and that was FUCKING LOW!
2007-08-15 12:39:51
477.   Raf
469 Because he's @ 110 pitches. I don't know if the O's organization monitors pitch counts.
2007-08-15 12:39:52
478.   Yankee Fan In Boston
470 well... for one, they had to face bedard. secondly guys are tired and/or banged up. i guess the order itself could have been shuffled a bit better, though.
2007-08-15 12:40:29
479.   yankz
Via Pete about Brackman:

"Word is that the Yankees and Scott Boras have agreed on a deal that would pay the right-hander a minimum of $4.6 million and possibly as much as $13.8 million based on service time and whether he gives up basketball."

this dude better be related to Walter Johnson, because that is a shit ton of money.

2007-08-15 12:40:37
480.   williamnyy23
443 I'd have either started the clock running on Kennedy, or, more obviously, appealed the Clemens decision. With an off day next week, they could have structured things to avoid having to use a 5th starter.
2007-08-15 12:40:58
481.   Jeb
Do y'all get the feeling that the Yanks should have just forfeited today to save themselves the humiliation of facting Bedard? They just can't beat him this season
2007-08-15 12:41:07
482.   weeping for brunnhilde
The question, btw (sorry, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, just clarify my perspective) was also about the fact that Jorgie seems to be missing those fastballs over the plate with a bit more frequency of late.

That's a ball he's handled, but doesn't seem to be handling it as much lately.

I'm just observing that and trying to account for it.

2007-08-15 12:42:36
483.   bartap74
I'd like to see the Yankees retire #31 already. It was worn by a great player and a Hall of Famer and I'm tired of being given to the latest call up all the time.
2007-08-15 12:42:51
484.   Jeteupthemiddle
470 I think the lineup is pretty good actually.

I have no issues with Cano and Abreu getting the day off against an extremely tough lefty when both have questionable splits against lefties (and Abreu has spiraled into funks after facing tough lefties....though probably coincidental).

I also have zero problem with Posada DHing. Day game after night game...he could have been on the bench completely, but at least he is in the lineup.

The only issue I have is Betemit batting 2nd, but I got over it very quickly.

2007-08-15 12:43:17
485.   cult of basebaal
from petey:


Word is that the Yankees and Scott Boras have agreed on a deal that would pay the right-hander a minimum of $4.6 million and possibly as much as $13.8 million based on service time and whether he gives up basketball.

More on this as it becomes official later today.


that seems a wee bit high for a guy who isn't rick porcello and who had makeup and injury concerns and non-dominant performance in college

then again ... in nardi i trust (assuming due diligence on the injury front)

2007-08-15 12:43:27
486.   yankz
480 Start the clock running on Kennedy for one start, when there's no guarantee that, in his Yankee Stadium and ML debut, he pitches well enough (and that much better than Karstens) to justify what could potentially be millions of dollars. Sounds great.

Also 472

Meanwhile, that changeup is filthy.

2007-08-15 12:43:32
487.   ny2ca2dc
Bugs Bunny! WOW!
2007-08-15 12:44:15
488.   fansince77
478 I didn't know that Cano and Abreu were banged up...and I don't buy the lefty shit- Abreu's OB possibility is what you need in a potentially one run game and Cano isn't fazed by lefties of late.

The bottom line is this reeks of Torre getting a little cocky at the wrong time.

2007-08-15 12:44:35
489.   weeping for brunnhilde
475 Wow, that sounds kind of fatalistic.

Of course there's luck, but there's also talent.

I guess you're right that I don't think luck was the determining factor there.

Maybe I'm dead wrong, but I think there's more to it than that. Striking a baseball isn't really comparable to rolling the dice.

Whether the baseball finds a hole is more comparable, I'd think, but striking the ball well, poorly, or not at all isn't a primarily a matter of luck, is it?

2007-08-15 12:44:43
490.   yankz
But I thought Edwar needed to work on his command???
2007-08-15 12:45:45
491.   tommyl
Man, this Edwar guy sucks. He can't pitch in tight ballgames.
2007-08-15 12:45:56
492.   Jeteupthemiddle
488 We'll have to agree to disagree then.

I think people are just at a point where they don't care what Torre does, it will always be wrong...even if it is right...or at least defendable.

2007-08-15 12:45:58
493.   cult of basebaal
hey ... how about that ... edwar ramirez can pitch in the bigs ... whodathunkit?
2007-08-15 12:46:00
494.   rbj
467 IIRC, there's about a half second for a hitter to recognize a pitch and where it's going, so you can't be up there thinking. Jorge probably was looking for one thing and got fooled by another. BAsically, you just have to use a reflex action, which is why Bonds hitting 756 HR is impressive even with steroids.
2007-08-15 12:46:25
495.   yankz
489 I think luck + it's a damn good pitcher is a satisfactory explanation for why one of the best and most consistent hitters this year swung and missed at a pitch.
2007-08-15 12:46:27
496.   RIYank
Edwar and Henn both performed well.

I'm gonna go play badminton. If you miss me, just find something pointless to argue about furiously, and you'll think of me.

2007-08-15 12:47:02
497.   williamnyy23
There is just one more move left ...Britton in; Farnsworth out. Come on can do it...
2007-08-15 12:47:05
498.   tommyl
490 What they meant was, his command, after sitting for 65 straight games, is not so good. He should go down to AAA and work on that.
2007-08-15 12:47:47
499.   AbbyNormal821
:::SIGH::: Seriously, I know it's late in teh game at all, but why are they sucking so badly today? Are they just getting the mass quantities of suckage out of their system to face the Tigers over the next four days? Any chance the Tigers will have drank too much 'suckage swill' and suck more than the Yanks have these last 2 games?

...either way, I'm still praying for a 9th inning comeback. That would totally NOT suck!!!

2007-08-15 12:49:09
500.   tommyl
Cabrera's out of the game. Top of the lineup. Let's go to work guys. Grind the thing out.
Show/Hide Comments 501-550
2007-08-15 12:49:10
501.   yankz
Still sliding into 1st, I see.
2007-08-15 12:49:31
502.   Yankee Fan In Boston
501 ugh.
2007-08-15 12:49:34
503.   Jeteupthemiddle

Sliding slows you down. You are allowed to sprint through first base.

2007-08-15 12:49:51
504.   ny2ca2dc
god damnit - almost Melky... damnit. Now here come the rest of the reinforcements
2007-08-15 12:49:51
505.   Raf
472 I'm just thowing options out there; brainstorming with you, if you will.

Kartsens really isn't all that good, there's a reason he's named "scary flyball guy." The fact that there really wasn't an option to start in place of Clemens meant that he should've appealed the suspension, and let the Yanks set up the staff the way they should have or Torre has someone go on short rest.

Granted, there's another month in the season left, and yesterday's game may mean little, but at the same time, the Yanks need to win as many games as they can. Starting Kartsens puts them at a disadvantage.

2007-08-15 12:50:07
506.   cult of basebaal
488 since you missed it ...

33. cult of basebaal
Regarding Cano, Joe has been saying for the last couple of days that robbie was going to get today off. IIRC correctly, he's only had 1 day off since the ASB (or something like that) and joe is concerned about him wearing down ...

He's been a little off for the last 2 days (Ofer both), he's facing a tough left-hander, and this year his daytime OPS is .702 compared to .934 at night.

Today was a good day to give him a day off, even if Betemit isn't the same hitter vs LHP.

2007-08-15 12:50:09
507.   tommyl
493 Ahem, apparently everyone except Joe Torre. Well maybe PeteAbe too.
2007-08-15 12:50:48
508.   unpopster
ok, so the Yanks are down 3 in the bottom of the 8th and the Sox are now down 3 in the bottom of the 9th.

taking bets on which of the two teams actually makes up those three runs in the next two frames.

2007-08-15 12:51:04
509.   Shaun P
501 ARGH! Would someone please teach that boy some physics?! Its much smarter to run through the bag!

C'mon you huckleberries - you owe the Scooter a win, darnit. Shoot, you owe him one more championship - even if he's watching on the big HDTV in the sky.

2007-08-15 12:51:11
510.   tommyl
503 Speaking of which, did anyone catch Mythbusters last week? the baseball episode. Now that was some cool stuff.
2007-08-15 12:52:07
511.   spufi2007
457 Thank you.
2007-08-15 12:52:07
512.   yankz
505 Who makes the decision to appeal? If it's Clemens, then you can't blame them.

I didn't say Karstens was good this year. I mean, he's been terrible. But he's been good before and, more importantly, there was nobody else.

2007-08-15 12:52:09
513.   Schteeve
I have a feeling that Giambi is going to bail us out today.
2007-08-15 12:52:58
514.   weeping for brunnhilde
495 I'm not maligning Jorgie. It's precisely because he's such a good hitter that I'm asking the question.

The guy's a good pitcher but that pitch didn't seem particularly good. Perhaps it was set up well by the rest of the sequence so as to make it harder to hit.

I'm just asking.

494 I'm aware of that, rbj, but again, it's always that hard to hit a baseball and yet sometimes hitters do it anyway, so the generic difficulty of hitting a baseball alone can't be the explanation for why Jorgie missed that particular pitch, nor for why he seems to be missing that pitch with greater frequency of late.

That's all I'm saying.

2007-08-15 12:53:39
515.   ny2ca2dc
2007-08-15 12:53:45
516.   Jeb
2007-08-15 12:53:46
517.   tommyl
Well that was clutch
2007-08-15 12:53:50
518.   yankz
God dammit Jeter.
510 Yeah, it was sweet. Although I wish they had used people with baseball experience for the sliding experiment.
2007-08-15 12:53:56
519.   weeping for brunnhilde
And Derek's been hitting poorly as well, a lot of weak groundballs.

I don't think it's just random or a function of the opposing pitchers, although the latter is plausible.

2007-08-15 12:55:20
520.   ny2ca2dc
Boston rumbling back... 4-6, 1 out, man on second, bottom 8th.
2007-08-15 12:56:03
521.   Raf
512 Which makes Clemens' decision of dropping his appeal, if that was the case, even more puzzling.
2007-08-15 12:56:10
522.   yankz
514 Anything going that fast is hard to hit. The fact that Jorge can do it regularly is remarkable, and it's foolish to expect him to do it for every pitch.

"it's always that hard to hit a baseball and yet sometimes hitters do it anyway"

Um, false. The best hitters do it 3/10 times.

Man, I've gone bold happy today.

2007-08-15 12:56:39
523.   ny2ca2dc
awesome, more Edwar. He's cruising. Filthy.

Here's the bright side: real good performances by the BP

2007-08-15 12:57:06
524.   yankz
521 Agreed.

519 A lot of bloggers seem to think Jeter's hurt.

2007-08-15 12:57:14
525.   Yankee Fan In Boston
i'm going out on a limb here, but i think i like this ramirez kid.
2007-08-15 12:57:30
526.   pistolpete
513 First three on base and then PH Giambi with the salami?

I love it, but it ain't gonna happen.

BTW, how in the world does Ortiz score all the way from first on a double? Someone please tell me to what magical corner of Fenway was that ball hit to?

2007-08-15 12:57:57
527.   yankz
Damn, Edwar just hit 90. Way inside, but still.
2007-08-15 12:58:24
528.   weeping for brunnhilde
522 We're talking past each other, yankz.

I don't expect him to do it for every pitch; that's not my point.

2007-08-15 12:58:59
529.   tommyl
I believe I hate you Jay Payton.
2007-08-15 12:59:13
530.   ny2ca2dc
526 Maybe Manny hustled a miss-played inside the park homerun into a double ;)
2007-08-15 12:59:19
531.   rbj
"so the generic difficulty of hitting a baseball alone can't be the explanation for why Jorgie missed that particular pitch"

It's a long season, players see lots of pitches that are probably good hitting pitches for them but they miss them or foul them off anyway. Without getting inside Jorge's head, neither you or I know why he missed that pitch. Sometimes the simple answer is the right one. Don't worry why he missed that one particular pitch. Worry that all the Yankee hitters seem to be going into a funk at the same time.

2007-08-15 12:59:40
532.   yankz
God that was nasty.
2007-08-15 13:00:13
533.   tommyl
527 Yeah, too bad now Joe realizes Edwar can be used like Mo was in '96. Multiple innings, shut down pitcher with a high K rate. Think how many games we've lost with Kyle pitching, sigh....
2007-08-15 13:01:15
534.   ny2ca2dc
Edwar is dominating these guys as much as Joba does - Joe's got to be taking note.
2007-08-15 13:01:16
535.   pistolpete
Wheewwww, Wheeler gets out of it with a 2-run lead.

But I have every reason to believe they'll still blow it next inning.

2007-08-15 13:01:16
536.   ChrisS
Man, good thing Edwar was hustled to bench by Torre his first go 'round, he obviously has nothing for ML hitters.
2007-08-15 13:01:36
537.   tommyl
So Edwar pitches 2 1/3 innings. The only hit he gives up is a bunt, no walks and strikes out 3. Now Joe just needs to find another good "situation" to bring him in for in the next month or so.
2007-08-15 13:01:37
538.   Sliced Bread
Karstens has been awful this year, and had an ERA above 10 going into last night's game.

He should have been replaced on the roster a week ago, and had no business being on the mound last night. He had done nothing to earn that start.

That was a train wreck they should have seen coming a mile away. The Yanks should have gone through contortions to avoid having him pitch.

2007-08-15 13:02:18
539.   cult of basebaal
oooh ... danys baez ... there is still hope, y'all
2007-08-15 13:02:40
540.   unpopster
If the last two days is an ominous sign that our bats have gone cold then this upcoming week against the Tigers and Halos will be brutal.
2007-08-15 13:02:42
541.   tommyl
534 You mean like when he struck out the side against the heart of the Twins order in his debut? Yeah, Joe took note. I'm so freakin' angry that he was ever mistreated and sent down.
2007-08-15 13:03:14
542.   yankz
538 Besides Igawa, who else can spot start? DeSalvo, Clippard, Wright? Brower?
2007-08-15 13:03:15
543.   weeping for brunnhilde
531 Sure, but as I said, he seems to be missing that fastball with greater frequency of late.

Maybe he's really not, and that's just my impression, but it is my impression.

Anyway, just to be clear, this isn't the biggest deal in the universe for me, I was merely responding to the ab as it happened.

I'm not arguing that Jorgie should be traded or that he's a bad hitter. I was just responding to the moment.

2007-08-15 13:03:18
544.   williamnyy23
533 Enough that with a different outcome a 2 or 3 game losing streak in August would be much more acceptable.
2007-08-15 13:03:47
545.   pistolpete
538 Was there any possibility of having Joba start in that spot? I know what he's specifically up here for, but the guy IS a starter.
2007-08-15 13:03:49
546.   ChrisS
"Worry that all the Yankee hitters seem to be going into a funk at the same time."

Which is usually when they encounter very good pitchers for some reason.

Most hitters in ML go into a funk against Bedard. I'm sure it takes some time to regain their balance once he's out of the game.

2007-08-15 13:04:16
547.   ny2ca2dc
At least we have lots of games vs. the Tigers & already schooled the Tribe - we can set our own destiny in the wild card. and now we have 4 effective RFRPs, a sweet bench & lineup, and solid rotation. Bedard is just an awesome pitcher, and Cabrera has that stuff in him to put together a dominating start once in a while, so no reason to get down on the offense.

This team has the ability to win this right now. Too bad Chris Ray is gone!

2007-08-15 13:04:23
548.   weeping for brunnhilde
Alex is great.

Just going with the pitch.

All day.

Nice swing.

Come on, Hideki, nice and easy.

2007-08-15 13:04:29
549.   cult of basebaal
545 how about no ...
2007-08-15 13:04:40
550.   yankz
Posada in his last 15 games: .360/.467/.680/1.147 with 4 HR. I'd say he's handling the fastball just fine "of late."
Show/Hide Comments 551-600
2007-08-15 13:04:41
551.   tommyl
I'd also like to point out that A-Rod is 3 for 3 with a walk. The rest of the team has 3 hits.
2007-08-15 13:04:46
552.   weeping for brunnhilde

Oh, please God, let's do this.

Please God.

2007-08-15 13:05:07
553.   Raf
keep it goin' guys
2007-08-15 13:05:31
554.   weeping for brunnhilde
Come on, Jorgie, you can do it!
2007-08-15 13:05:31
555.   pistolpete
549 The guy's had like 4-5 games out of the pen including Scranton. Why not?
2007-08-15 13:05:35
556.   yankz
545 Then you lose a bullpen arm for at least 4 days. Unless you replace him, which means you can't call him back up for 10 days. I don't think it was an option.
2007-08-15 13:05:43
557.   ny2ca2dc
541 Joe's alternative toys have been taken away, and Farns is in the doghouse. It may be different this time


2007-08-15 13:05:51
558.   Sliced Bread
542 I would have been happy to try anybody in the organization other than Karstens or Igawa.
2007-08-15 13:06:02
559.   pistolpete
526 Ummm....?
2007-08-15 13:06:29
560.   tommyl
545 Joba is also in relief because his innings (in his first pro season) are capped. Even if he was still in AAA, he'd be doing 3 inning starts at this point.
2007-08-15 13:07:08
561.   tommyl
526 Holy shit man, that would be beautiful.
2007-08-15 13:07:41
562.   ny2ca2dc
why is phillips on deck
2007-08-15 13:08:04
563.   Raf
Giambi or Abreu?
2007-08-15 13:08:08
564.   williamnyy23
Damn it Posada!!!!!!!!
2007-08-15 13:08:28
565.   yankz
weeping, you totally jinxed him on that fastball.
2007-08-15 13:08:30
566.   weeping for brunnhilde
See, that makes sense.

That K is not mystifying to me, fwiw.

High cheese.

2007-08-15 13:08:47
567.   yankz
563 Giambi. Go for the tie.
2007-08-15 13:08:50
568.   pistolpete
Just keep telling yourself, "at least it wasn't a DP"...
2007-08-15 13:09:01
569.   tommyl
Definitely not Jorge's day. 0-4, 2Ks 5 LOB
2007-08-15 13:09:31
570.   weeping for brunnhilde
565 I did no such thing!!

It was all you guys!


2007-08-15 13:09:37
571.   Raf
ah, crafty...
2007-08-15 13:09:47
572.   Mike T
Abreu, not Giambi, in for Phillips?
2007-08-15 13:10:18
573.   yankz
Yikes. Righties are actually slightly worse vs. Walker this year. Not that anybody's really hitting him much.
2007-08-15 13:10:20
574.   Jeteupthemiddle
Abreu pinch hitting.

Walker now relieving...

2007-08-15 13:10:35
575.   cult of basebaal
555 because you don't fuck with your future for one damn start in the middle of august ... he's not some low cost journeyman ... he's a critical part of this year's stretch run AND most likely a critical part of next year's starting rotation ... he's arguably the best starting pitching prospect (at worst, 2nd)this organization has seen in 30 years ... industry people were already worried about switching him to relieving this year with so little lead time before having to face the stress of MLB hitters and you're going to turn around and have him spot start after finally starting to get acclimated to relieving, on a total non-routinenon schedule???

how about no

2007-08-15 13:10:37
576.   williamnyy23
566 What makes it mystifying is Posada has a great eye...when he chases, it usually seems to be as a right handed batter on breaking balls low and away.
2007-08-15 13:10:53
577.   weeping for brunnhilde
563 Tough call.

I'd be inclined to go with Abreu, looking for a liner in the gaps, but tough call.

2007-08-15 13:10:57
578.   EricSanSan
Can't understand this move, rather go for the tie, especially with the lefty coming in anyway. I guess Joe is looking for a single now.
2007-08-15 13:11:05
579.   tommyl
So then I guess Giambi PHs for Duncan?
2007-08-15 13:11:30
580.   EricSanSan
Giambi is 1-for-13 lifetime against Walker, that's why.
2007-08-15 13:11:39
581.   weeping for brunnhilde
576 Yeah, but nearly everyone's susceptible to that pitch with two strikes.
2007-08-15 13:11:57
582.   yankz
OK, makes sense. Abreu's had better numbers vs. Walker.
2007-08-15 13:12:22
583.   williamnyy23
Why Abreu? He is clearly the weakest against lefties.
2007-08-15 13:12:57
584.   yankz
583 Not this lefty.

It also works out better for positioning, according to Kay.

2007-08-15 13:13:24
585.   weeping for brunnhilde
583 You think?

I don't know, he could well slap one the other way.

2007-08-15 13:13:57
586.   pistolpete
575 Oh c'mon now - he's been starting ALL season in the minors, and you can't tell me he's 100% acclimated to the bullpen routine already.

I don't want to mess with his arm either, but I don't buy your argument as a solid reason against it...

2007-08-15 13:14:08
587.   weeping for brunnhilde

That made my heart skip a beat.

2007-08-15 13:14:13
588.   tommyl
C'mon Bobbie.
2007-08-15 13:14:14
589.   SF Yanks
WOW. That was strike 3. Good break.
2007-08-15 13:14:19
590.   yankz
Oof. That just missed.
2007-08-15 13:14:34
591.   weeping for brunnhilde
Damn it, damn it, damn it.

That was ball four.

2007-08-15 13:14:38
592.   ChrisS
I say leave Shelly in there if Abreu gets on base. Let the rookie slugger have at the young lefty.
2007-08-15 13:14:43
593.   weeping for brunnhilde
Well, maybe not.
2007-08-15 13:15:02
594.   williamnyy23
Abreu also swung at ball about frustrating.
2007-08-15 13:15:11
595.   ny2ca2dc
586 I buy that argument completely. Just not worth the risk. He ain't Scott Procter.
2007-08-15 13:15:13
596.   EricSanSan
Leave Shelly in...better chance to succeed. He matches up against the soft tosser with his long swing.
2007-08-15 13:15:16
597.   tommyl
C'mon Shelly. Bash one, bash one now.
2007-08-15 13:15:18
598.   yankz
586 I like cult's argument, as well as mine in 566
2007-08-15 13:15:28
599.   williamnyy23
No Giambi???
2007-08-15 13:15:32
600.   pistolpete
See 568
Show/Hide Comments 601-650
2007-08-15 13:15:36
601.   weeping for brunnhilde
Damn it.

If that'd been a fastball, the game could have been tied up.

What a swing.

2007-08-15 13:15:40
602.   yankz
Um, 556
2007-08-15 13:16:01
603.   weeping for brunnhilde



2007-08-15 13:16:10
604.   bartap74
2007-08-15 13:16:11
605.   ny2ca2dc
there will be no fastballs this AB...
2007-08-15 13:16:14
606.   williamnyy23
599 I guess not!
2007-08-15 13:16:18
607.   SF Yanks
2007-08-15 13:16:18
608.   Raf
Gameday photo looks like Vern Schillinger
2007-08-15 13:16:29
609.   yankz




2007-08-15 13:16:29
610.   EricSanSan
2007-08-15 13:16:32
611.   Jeteupthemiddle
Shelley Duncan = True Yankee TM
2007-08-15 13:16:37
612.   ChrisS
2007-08-15 13:16:40
613.   ny2ca2dc
2007-08-15 13:16:49
614.   Sliced Bread
Pulling Muscles From A Shelley!

Squeeze THIS, stinkin' Os!

80's pop, anybody?

2007-08-15 13:16:50
615.   weeping for brunnhilde

FUCKING A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


2007-08-15 13:16:51
616.   Mike T
I'm speechless. I don't know what else to say about this kid.
2007-08-15 13:16:58
617.   Raf
good gravy
2007-08-15 13:17:00
618.   thelarmis


2007-08-15 13:17:09
619.   ny2ca2dc
did that just happen
2007-08-15 13:17:24
620.   Bags
freaking marvelous.
2007-08-15 13:17:38
621.   williamnyy23
Do you pinch run and lose the DH?
2007-08-15 13:17:40
622.   tommyl
2007-08-15 13:17:41
623.   rbj
Oh yes!

And now I gotta drive home and walk the dog.

2007-08-15 13:17:58
624.   pistolpete
602 You said you didn't "think" it was an option... :)
2007-08-15 13:18:09
625.   cult of basebaal
holy shit ... it's the DUNCANSTEIN!!!!!!!
2007-08-15 13:18:15
626.   ny2ca2dc
2007-08-15 13:18:37
627.   Raf
Melky needs to hit one out, cause Molina ain't scoring on a triple...
2007-08-15 13:18:38
628.   yankz
Jeter wasn't the first out of the dugout. Clearly, Shelley has not made it and will not be invited to the infielders sleepover.


2007-08-15 13:18:45
629.   weeping for brunnhilde
605 Fastballs?

We don't need no stinking fastballs.

2007-08-15 13:18:58
630.   yankz
2007-08-15 13:19:21
631.   ChrisS
Maybe with the Melk Man's help, Edwar can get his first ML win.
2007-08-15 13:19:35
632.   thelarmis
i'm glad i'm not a singer, 'coz i just blew out my voice screaming! ooh, i hope to see video of that later tonite...

let's end it hear, melkman!

2007-08-15 13:19:48
633.   pistolpete
628 I think that's because he didn't want to be mauled by Duncan's forearm...
2007-08-15 13:19:49
634.   Jeb

Guys, I apologize for my stupid comment. I was think that rest would be nice if the Yanks were going to "lose anyway because of Bedard"...Obviously I overlooked the magic of Shelly Duncan...

2007-08-15 13:19:59
635.   yankz
Snatching victory from the jaws of the Orioles
2007-08-15 13:20:10
636.   Knuckles
Someone give that kid the #47 jersey...
2007-08-15 13:20:12
637.   tommyl
631 Second, he won the angels game.
2007-08-15 13:20:39
638.   ny2ca2dc
629 Seriously! Duncan has really shown the ability to adjust - just as Phillips has not. He should really be the platoon 1B, with Betemit, if not starting more than that, Phillips LIDR.
2007-08-15 13:20:40
639.   yankz
632 I still have an arm raised in a Jeter fist pump pose.
2007-08-15 13:20:42
640.   unpopster
don't look now but the Red Sox are coming back in the bottom of the 9th too.
2007-08-15 13:20:48
641.   EricSanSan
Can you say "more playing time" for the Ducanstein?
2007-08-15 13:21:01
642.   weeping for brunnhilde
Lest we forget, all credit to Alex and especially to Hideki, who really didn't look good today.

Way to adjust, Mats.

2007-08-15 13:21:17
643.   yankz
Melky, batting lefty, during the day. Let's end it now.
2007-08-15 13:21:20
644.   williamnyy23
Unfortunately, the Yanks arent the only team with a 9th inning rally. The Drays are about to cough up another.
2007-08-15 13:21:41
645.   tommyl
Its too bad Cairo was released for Duncan. His grittiness would have bunted the runners over.
2007-08-15 13:21:41
646.   spufi2007
6-5 Rays. Man on second for Boston, 0 out.
2007-08-15 13:21:54
647.   cult of basebaal
hmmm ... since it is possible we aren't going to score again here ... do i smell me some joba in the 10th???

who's warming out there?

2007-08-15 13:22:14
648.   pistolpete
640 Why on earth did they put Reyes in again?

1 run down, man on 2nd with no outs? I say it's pretty much over for TB.

2007-08-15 13:22:40
649.   weeping for brunnhilde

Melk just missed that one.

New life, Melk.

2007-08-15 13:22:46
650.   thelarmis
damn, i HATE the shit sox. they're threatening big time in the 9th. boo...
Show/Hide Comments 651-700
2007-08-15 13:23:11
651.   tommyl
Ohhhh, I hate John Sterling:

Hit in the ball to deep right! And its a foul ball in the corner, off the end of the bat.

2007-08-15 13:23:15
652.   weeping for brunnhilde
Extras it is.

This is our game.


2007-08-15 13:23:26
653.   ny2ca2dc
647 why not MO for the 10th - we're at home
2007-08-15 13:23:43
654.   pistolpete
1 out for the Sox.
2007-08-15 13:23:51
655.   yankz
I'd love me some Joba here.

A-rod for the win, no doubt about it.

(BTW, another ninth-inning hit for the MVP!)

2007-08-15 13:23:56
656.   Raf
Is Rivera warming, or is Edwar coming in for another inning?
2007-08-15 13:24:03
657.   williamnyy23
651 I know...I hate false hope.
2007-08-15 13:24:22
658.   yankz
653 Oh yeah, I forgot he's rested now.
2007-08-15 13:24:43
659.   jedi
Joba has got to come in. he was off yesterday so this perfect.
2007-08-15 13:24:44
660.   yankz
651 Didn't even reach the corner.
2007-08-15 13:24:50
661.   cult of basebaal
653 it would more likely be mo ... since he could warm up quicker ... just wondering if joe had gotten someone up during the 9th, just in case
2007-08-15 13:24:54
662.   pistolpete
C'mon, Youk, PLEASE line out to SS and they double Lugo off the base.

Papi's on deck.

2007-08-15 13:24:55
663.   tommyl
Wow, he goes to Mo.
2007-08-15 13:25:23
664.   Jeteupthemiddle
Rivera pitching.
2007-08-15 13:25:27
665.   Shaun P
OK, now if only Al Reyes won't blow that game in Boston . . . throw he seems to be trying . . .
2007-08-15 13:25:45
666.   Bama Yankee
614 "Pulling Muscles From A Shelley!"

Very nice. Good stuff, Sliced.

2007-08-15 13:25:48
667.   yankz
That's a Joba-esque K/BB ratio.
2007-08-15 13:26:22
668.   Shaun P
Two strikes on Youk.
2007-08-15 13:26:24
669.   cult of basebaal
well ... we'll see what mo has got ...
2007-08-15 13:26:25
670.   Yankee Fan In Boston
duncan is my hero. did he hurt his hand high fiving?
2007-08-15 13:26:40
671.   yankz
How pissed must Bedard be?
2007-08-15 13:26:54
672.   spufi2007
2 outs for Boston
2007-08-15 13:26:56
673.   thelarmis
2 out in beantown
2007-08-15 13:27:04
674.   tommyl
2007-08-15 13:27:04
675.   mikeplugh
Hey fellas. I dropped in for a single post the other day but had to run. I'm back in the US now so no more views from the future. A year of grad school about to begin in NYC and that means Fall baseball.

This is a helluva start. I love Shelley Duncan. Now if only the Yanks can scratch out a win and Al Reyes can avoid shitting the bed two nights in a row....

2007-08-15 13:27:06
676.   ChrisS
I dunno about having Shelly at first, Rivera tends to induce some funny groundballs. It'd be nice if he's a capable 1B.

Let's get this one!

2007-08-15 13:27:23
677.   pistolpete
Youkilis K's!!!

1 to go, Reyes...

2007-08-15 13:27:28
678.   yankz
Dammit, Mo.
2007-08-15 13:27:29
679.   Jeteupthemiddle
Wow, that ball just kept carrying.

Strikeouts are fun, Mr, Rivera.

2007-08-15 13:27:33
680.   williamnyy23
Crap...not more bad Mo? It look like Markakis was jammed!
2007-08-15 13:27:33
681.   Shaun P
YES! Youkilis strikes out swinging! Here comes Papi.

Please please please let Mo get out of the inning with no runs allowed. Please.

2007-08-15 13:27:42
682.   thelarmis
leadoff double. feh. is joba warming?
2007-08-15 13:27:43
683.   mikeplugh
Uh....and Mo doesn't cough this one up....where's Joba?
2007-08-15 13:27:43
684.   unpopster
668 strike 3, The 'Great God of Walks' K's
2007-08-15 13:27:48
685.   cult of basebaal
oh dear, it appears bad mo is still in the building
2007-08-15 13:28:23
686.   spufi2007
They've got to be walking Papi here
2007-08-15 13:28:34
687.   Shaun P
675 Welcome back to the States, Mike! =)

680 I hope not. It is about time for WWWMW (hat tip to RLYW).

2007-08-15 13:28:44
688.   yankz
682 Yeah, he is.
2007-08-15 13:28:47
689.   ChrisS
676 or screaming doubles ... sigh.
2007-08-15 13:29:23
690.   pistolpete
That guy on deck right now worries me the most against Rivera.
2007-08-15 13:29:30
691.   EricSanSan
Full count for Big Papi!
2007-08-15 13:29:40
692.   Shaun P
Two strikes on Ortiz . . .
2007-08-15 13:29:47
693.   Jeteupthemiddle
Are you guys seriously at the point when you are criticizing Torre for bringing in Rivera for an extra inning game instead of Chamberlain?

Now I know we are at a point where he can do no right with a lot of you.

2007-08-15 13:30:13
694.   yankz
Just put him away, Mo.
2007-08-15 13:30:41
695.   thelarmis
papi walked
2007-08-15 13:30:42
696.   williamnyy23
Talk about deflating...I would have rather lost 3-0.
2007-08-15 13:30:44
697.   weeping for brunnhilde
What's up with Mo?

Damn it, damn it, damn it.

2007-08-15 13:30:50
698.   unpopster
Ortiz walks. Ugh. Here comes a Manny homwer. ugh.
2007-08-15 13:30:59
699.   tommyl
Damnit, damnit, damnit. Mo! come on, you're better than this.
2007-08-15 13:31:06
700.   Jeteupthemiddle
Maybe we did trade for Gagne after all
Show/Hide Comments 701-750
2007-08-15 13:31:08
701.   yankz
OK, something's wrong with Mo :(

Don't forget Shelley's DP earlier today. What a cool kid.

2007-08-15 13:31:12
702.   ChrisS
2007-08-15 13:31:13
703.   Shaun P
OK, Ortiz walks. C'mon Al Reyes, get that last out already!


2007-08-15 13:31:24
704.   thelarmis
OMG, this is awful
2007-08-15 13:31:27
705.   mikeplugh
When did Mariano turn into Ron Villone?
2007-08-15 13:31:42
706.   E-Rocker
son of a b!tch!!!!!!
2007-08-15 13:31:42
707.   Mike T
What the fuck is wrong with Mariano Rivera?
2007-08-15 13:31:43
708.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice play, Shelley.
2007-08-15 13:31:50
709.   williamnyy23
693 I can never criticize Mo, but this is clearly one of his mini-bad stretches.
2007-08-15 13:31:58
710.   pistolpete
Great time for Mo to go into his annual 2-3 game funk - NOT.
2007-08-15 13:32:06
711.   yankz
Arod bats next inning.
2007-08-15 13:32:24
712.   Shaun P
697 701 Its *W*hat's *W*rong *W*ith *M*ariano *W*eek - happens every August, a week goes by where Mo gives up some runs and looks human.

Yanks aren't done yet!

2007-08-15 13:32:29
713.   mikeplugh
When did Mariano turn into Ron Villone?
2007-08-15 13:32:34
714.   Yankee Fan In Boston
nice 2 handed scoop, shelley. i like it.
2007-08-15 13:32:42
715.   unpopster
711 and we've still got Giambi on the bench.
2007-08-15 13:33:03
716.   ChrisS
well we get Cano, Jeter and Arod in the bottom half. Plus Giambi if needed.

I still like our odds.

2007-08-15 13:33:11
717.   nemecizer
I will set something on fire if we lose and Boston wins.
2007-08-15 13:33:15
718.   yankz
Cano 1B, Jeter flies out, Arod for the win.
2007-08-15 13:33:16
719.   spufi2007
C'mon, he doesn't look like's Scott Proctor!
2007-08-15 13:33:26
720.   unpopster
0-2 strikes on Manny.
2007-08-15 13:33:46
721.   weeping for brunnhilde
Holy shit.

What a fucking nightmare.

I feel like crying.

2007-08-15 13:33:53
722.   Jeteupthemiddle
Jesus Christ.

When was the last time Rivera allowed 3 runs in an inning?

3 extra base hits?

Kind of have to pull him.

2007-08-15 13:33:58
723.   yankz

Nothing you can do about this. Shit.

2007-08-15 13:34:04
724.   Yankee Fan In Boston
2007-08-15 13:34:06
725.   tommyl
Wow, well that's the game. Something is very wrong with Mo. That's three awful outings in a row.
2007-08-15 13:34:06
726.   weeping for brunnhilde
What's this, Mo's third consecutive poor outing?
2007-08-15 13:34:14
727.   thelarmis
2007-08-15 13:34:17
728.   ChrisS
sigh. Time to give Mo some time off.
2007-08-15 13:34:23
729.   seamus
Mo looks awful.
2007-08-15 13:34:28
730.   spufi2007
OK, warm up the bus. Oh, wait, they're at home.
2007-08-15 13:34:44
731.   yankz
Sucks that the rest of the bullpen completely shut them down.
2007-08-15 13:34:51
732.   mikeplugh
This game now looks like a total piece of s^%#
2007-08-15 13:34:53
733.   cult of basebaal
wow ... just wow ... this is beyond bad ... there's got to be something wrong with mo ... and i don't know what we'll do if there is ... sigh
2007-08-15 13:34:55
734.   thelarmis
717 i volunteer myself...
2007-08-15 13:35:09
735.   Yankee Fan In Boston
721 nightmare indeed.
2007-08-15 13:35:18
736.   weeping for brunnhilde
Well, at least Manny K'd.

There's some comfort.

2007-08-15 13:35:28
737.   tommyl
Sox lose at least
2007-08-15 13:35:29
738.   unpopster
Manny K's. Sox lose.
2007-08-15 13:35:32
739.   Raf
Sox lose, Manny K's
2007-08-15 13:35:39
740.   nemecizer
Boston lost!
2007-08-15 13:35:46
741.   mikeplugh
Manny fan on Al Reyes' 33rd pitch of the 9th to end it. Yanks won't fall back, but this sucks.
2007-08-15 13:35:49
742.   E-Rocker
Manny strikes out, sox lose!!!!!!!!
2007-08-15 13:35:53
743.   Shaun P
Manny K's and the Red Sox lose!

Do not give up hope yet, friends. There's still the bottom part of an inning to be played in the Bronx.

2007-08-15 13:35:54
744.   williamnyy23
Usually I'm shocked when Mo gets tagged, but not this time. I wouldn't have brought him, but I still can't fault Torre. Even when he isn't pitching well, you still have to believe him in.
2007-08-15 13:35:56
745.   cult of basebaal
manny strikes out ... boston loses ... at least we have that today
2007-08-15 13:36:02
746.   yankz
Kay makes a good point- even the other outings were mostly bloops. He's getting hammered today.
2007-08-15 13:36:12
747.   spufi2007
These O's are certainly a thorn in our side. Good thing we only have to play them about 22 more times this year.
2007-08-15 13:36:12
748.   pistolpete
Manny K's. Something went right today, I guess.
2007-08-15 13:36:13
749.   Mike T
I never thought I would say this, but Torre needs to pull Mo before he puts this game out of reach for us.
2007-08-15 13:36:14
751.   Jeteupthemiddle
Well at least there's that.
Show/Hide Comments 752-800
2007-08-15 13:36:26
752.   Jersey
Many whiffs with the winning run on base. So today isn't a total wash.
2007-08-15 13:36:28
753.   thelarmis
manny k's. boston loses.

go twins.

someone please bring the old Mo back. and by old, i mean Mo of previous dominance and not current old Mo in age... : ~

2007-08-15 13:36:38
754.   Yankee Fan In Boston
the yankees' 10th inning 4 run comeback will be legendary.

i'm bracing myself.

2007-08-15 13:36:43
755.   E-Rocker
Rivera's ERA just jumped half a run.
2007-08-15 13:37:01
756.   yankz
734 I volunteer Farnsworth.
2007-08-15 13:37:24
757.   thelarmis
someone have a quick lookup to see when the last time Mo gave up 3 XBH's in 1 inning? and in extra innings?
2007-08-15 13:37:33
758.   yankz
Remember Cleveland!
2007-08-15 13:37:49
759.   tommyl
Why is it that we finally get the all important "bridge to Mo" built, and now he sucks.
2007-08-15 13:38:09
760.   yankz
749 happened back in April.
2007-08-15 13:38:13
761.   Jersey
I don't know...Yankees have the heart of the order coming up. It ain't over yet.
2007-08-15 13:38:13
762.   weeping for brunnhilde
Come on, you fucking ump.

That was a strike.

Christ, not ten minutes ago I was euphoric and now I'm back to surly frustration.

Fucking baseball.

2007-08-15 13:38:38
763.   pistolpete
759 Ha, good point. Everyone looked good except for Mo.
2007-08-15 13:38:41
764.   williamnyy23
Not only has Mo lost this game, but his pitch count could take him out of a good portion of the O's series.

It's a pure second guess, but Chamberlain was clearly the better option today. Torre finally brings Rivera into a high leverage, non save situation and it's still the wrong move.

2007-08-15 13:39:12
765.   Mike T
After giving up three runs, Mo sits 'em down. A little late there.
2007-08-15 13:39:21
766.   williamnyy23
764 Make that Tigers series.
2007-08-15 13:39:23
767.   weeping for brunnhilde
743 Indeed, Shaun, indeed.

But I'd be lying if I told you I didn't have a pit in my stomach.

2007-08-15 13:39:43
768.   thelarmis
cano, jetes, a-rod. we're still in this. i just hope they're not as deflated as i am right now...
2007-08-15 13:39:55
769.   yankz
Last time Mo's given up 3 hits in an appearance: The past three appearances, and June 28...vs. Baltimore.
2007-08-15 13:40:14
770.   SF Yanks
762 I agree with all your statements.
2007-08-15 13:40:28
771.   weeping for brunnhilde
Ok, Robby, Team, let's bail out Mo!
2007-08-15 13:40:32
772.   spufi2007
764 Come on, this was the right time to bring in Mo. All we do is criticize Torre for not bringing him in, he does, and it doesn't work out. But, this was the right move. If Joba comes in and gets shelled, we'd be screaming at Torre and it would have been justified.
2007-08-15 13:40:45
773.   williamnyy23
Here's another second guess...why not Giambi's power bat against the right Bradford? Seems like a perfect matchup?
2007-08-15 13:40:48
774.   unpopster
ok, so Jetes will ground out. Arod will single again, Matsui will double Arod home, Posada will single Matsui, Abreu will fly out, and Giambi (hitting for Duncan) will hit the winning HR.
2007-08-15 13:41:03
775.   rconn23
I just don't understand what the hell is going on.

Is Mariano on the take?

2007-08-15 13:41:05
776.   Mike T
What a bad stretch for Mo. He's been so far off his game his last three or so outings.
2007-08-15 13:41:15
777.   williamnyy23
773 For Melky in the 9th I mean.
2007-08-15 13:41:17
778.   weeping for brunnhilde
759 No fucking kidding.

As I say, fucking baseball.

2007-08-15 13:41:35
779.   unpopster
774 ugh. forgot about Robbie.
2007-08-15 13:41:38
780.   pistolpete
769 19 times against the AL East teams per season, they're all bound to catch on sooner or later.


2007-08-15 13:41:46
781.   yankz
772 Agreed.

773 Who do you pinch hit for?

2007-08-15 13:41:58
782.   Jersey
Chad Bradford should give Dwight Schrute his face back.
2007-08-15 13:42:37
783.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice swing there, Derek.

God, I'm so mad.

2007-08-15 13:42:46
784.   yankz
Remember Cleveland!
2007-08-15 13:42:52
785.   williamnyy23
772 I already said you can't blame Torre...I was just commenting on the irony of how Joe finally used Mo properly, but it was still the wrong move, based on the result.
2007-08-15 13:43:04
786.   unpopster
no doubt arod will get on base here.
2007-08-15 13:43:13
787.   randym77
Good gravy. When I left the office, it was 3-3 in the 10th. Ten minutes later, I arrive home to find it 6-3 ?!
2007-08-15 13:43:14
788.   tommyl
Ok, Alex, hit a 1000 ft. HR, that counts 3 times, right?
2007-08-15 13:43:25
789.   pistolpete
Why is it that when the Yankees have a guy who throws sidearm, seemingly everyone can hit him...

But when we face one, not so much?

2007-08-15 13:43:54
790.   yankz
How do you lose a game like this? Dammit.
2007-08-15 13:43:55
791.   Jeteupthemiddle
Still Alive...
2007-08-15 13:43:55
792.   Shaun P

The guys at RLYW have it well chronicled - every August, something bad happens to Rivera for a short while.

But 784 !

2007-08-15 13:44:02
793.   williamnyy23
Two really, really bad losses in a row. Instead of remember Cleveland, it could be remember Colorado. I am not looking forward to tomorrow's game.
2007-08-15 13:44:06
794.   weeping for brunnhilde
Thank you, Alex.

Please stay.

2007-08-15 13:44:08
795.   pistolpete
787 No radio in the car?
2007-08-15 13:44:15
796.   tommyl
Well A-Rod continues to believe. Ok guys, just like last time...
2007-08-15 13:44:53
797.   weeping for brunnhilde
Keep it going, Hideki.

It ain't over yet.

2007-08-15 13:45:06
798.   Shaun P
C'mon ON Godzilla, just get on base . . .
2007-08-15 13:45:16
799.   Jeteupthemiddle
793 You think you could refrain from declaring this a loss before it is, you know, a loss?
2007-08-15 13:45:37
800.   tommyl
0-2, errrrr...
Show/Hide Comments 801-850
2007-08-15 13:45:47
801.   EricSanSan
How deflating is this?
2007-08-15 13:46:00
802.   weeping for brunnhilde
I feel nauseated.

What an excruciating game.

2007-08-15 13:46:08
803.   tommyl
doh doh doh
2007-08-15 13:46:18
804.   yankz
F, what a heartbreaking loss.
2007-08-15 13:46:19
805.   randym77
795 I have a radio, but I couldn't find the game on it. The station that usually has it was running a sports talk show. They mentioned the Yankees game was tied in the 10th, then went back to "What's wrong with the Mets?"
2007-08-15 13:46:20
806.   williamnyy23
799 Optimism is nice, but there's no way they're coming back twice.
2007-08-15 13:46:59
807.   Shaun P
Bradford threw 16 pitches, 15 strikes and ONE ball. Sigh.

If nothing else, Shelley just guaranteed himself plenty more playing time down the stretch. Miguel who?

2007-08-15 13:47:00
808.   yankz
On the plus side, the rookies really did well today (Phenom, Edwar, Shelley).

On the minus side, fuck.

2007-08-15 13:47:26
809.   pistolpete
805 Where do you live? I guess I take it for granted everyone can't just turn on WCBS 880 and hear it.
2007-08-15 13:47:40
810.   williamnyy23
I think tomorrow's game becomes crucial. If they win it, they can get back on track, but if they lose it, well, it could be a tough next 10 games.
2007-08-15 13:48:04
811.   williamnyy23
I think tomorrow's game becomes crucial. If they win it, they can get back on track, but if they lose it, well, it could be a tough next 10 games.
2007-08-15 13:48:49
812.   randym77
809 I'm in upstate NY. I usually have no problem finding the Yankees game, even if I'm out of state. ESPN usually has it. Not today.
2007-08-15 13:49:03
813.   pistolpete
Tomorrow's Post headline:

"Oh MO!"

I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.

2007-08-15 13:49:04
814.   Mattpat11
There is something particularly galling about being beat bu Aubrey Huff two nights in a row, long after he's been relevant.
2007-08-15 13:49:13
815.   rconn23
We got issues man. Something is up with Mo and Jeter looks just lost at the plate right now. I think the injuries are really catching up to him now.
2007-08-15 13:49:26
816.   weeping for brunnhilde
What a crazy fucking game.

We got both sloppy fielding (by Derek) and stellar fielding (by Duncan).

No hitting all game and then a last-licks rally for the ages.

Good pitching from everyone and a fiasco by Mo.

What the fuck kind of backwards universe is this?

What a twisted game.

2007-08-15 13:50:22
817.   pistolpete
814 Especially since he never did squat against us with TB...
2007-08-15 13:50:52
818.   weeping for brunnhilde
808 I know. What a mindfuck of a game.
2007-08-15 13:51:21
819.   pistolpete
Oh, and go Twins!

Later all. I wanna say that tomorrow will be better for sure, but it's the Tigers. Not even sure I'll even have the desire to tune in all weekend...

2007-08-15 13:52:09
820.   yankz
Mo got injured last year, right? If, god forbid, that happened again, would that make Joba the closer? Or Farns, since he has experience?
2007-08-15 13:52:18
821.   cult of basebaal
look, the reality is that joba is not under the normal handling rules of your average MLB reliever

the yankees are being extra careful with him, not only with his rest, but also with his warmups

they've said he'll only start innings, which means his appearance is essentially planned in advance, which means he can take extra time to get good and loose, since he isn't used to the normal reliever's warm-up timeframe

also, i would be willing to bet that a warmup is going to count as an appearance to the yankees, so if joe warms him up, he's got to come in ('cause he's gonna be unavailable for the next day anyway)

i would say that given the constraints, there just wasn't enough time for joe to feel comfortable with joba's warmup period after the duncan homerun and he didn't want to warm him up before then if we didn't make the comeback (which was a damn longshot) if that meant he was going to lose him for tomorrow

sucks, but them's the rules of engagement with joba, at least for now

it's mo's inning anyway, at least when his evil doppleganger isn't pitching in his stead

sigh ... i don't heart bad mo


2007-08-15 13:53:37
822.   Mattpat11
Well, I'll be at the game tomorrow. That guarantees a win.
2007-08-15 13:59:07
823.   Jeb
something is wrong with Mo.
2007-08-15 14:00:55
824.   Shaun P
813 I don't want to fight you (I'd probably lose =) - but I was thinking:

"Mo, you huckleberry!"

2007-08-15 14:02:37
825.   Max
I know this is small consolation to folks now, but even when we were putting together our .700 stretch of play in 2005 and coming back to take the division, we were still getting slapped around in the most frustrating way by Tampa Bay...numerous excruciating losses like this one.

It sure sucked to come home and watch Shelley's HR in the ninth, get all excited, and then get in the car to pick up my daughter, and check the score on my phone just five minutes later and see the O's had already gone up 6-3.

But if we were going to lose two in a row, at least we got rid of the deadwood (Karstens, Brower), and gave old uncreative Joe yet more reasons to trust the young guys. I love the hug Edwar and Shelley gave each other in the dugout after his home a sign of brotherhood between two guys who have been working hard to make it to the majors, and contribute big like they did today.

A sign of better times ahead, no doubt. Let's hope this is just a blip (albeit a painful one), and that Mo gets past it quickly.

2007-08-15 14:03:20
826.   weeping for brunnhilde
"How often does Mariano Rivera struggle three days in a row?" asks Kay.

Actually, fairly often, it seems to me.

When he struggles, he seems to really struggle, especially this year.

If he struggles two days in a row, it's safe to assume he'll struggle the next day.

Not saying he shouldn't have been brought in, just that I'm not surprised at all.

2007-08-15 14:04:18
827.   randym77
I hate to say this, but I agree with Michael Kay. Mo commonly struggles a bit in late summer. He'll be fine.
2007-08-15 14:05:54
828.   weeping for brunnhilde
825 Hear, hear.
2007-08-15 14:06:38
829.   mayorkoch
Did anybody else see that on both Markakis' and Huff's hits Mariano's cutter was dead straight. Those are usually the ones the batter ends up popping up or hitting weak dinks. His pitches had no movement today. Very different from Monday's bad luck performance. Haven't seen lack of movement in many moons.....
2007-08-15 14:08:30
830.   mayorkoch
An unfortunate ending to a day when Joe Torre seemed to make a whole series of wise moves
2007-08-15 14:11:47
831.   weeping for brunnhilde
829 I think you're right about that. The homerun seemed to be decent location. I was surprised the ball got hit as hard as it did, so I think the lack of movement may well account for it.
2007-08-15 14:12:10
832.   Mattpat11
825 I'd like to add that this seems to happen to Mo annually in August, so I'm not going to look at this as a sign of the end.

Also, these games will happen. If the Yankees were still in the same position they were a month ago, these games could be disastrous. But right now, they have played themselves to a point where, along with a marshmallow September schedule, we're still in very good shape in spite of these last two games. The time to panic after every loss passed a couple weeks ago. We've afforded ourselves a little breathing room by getting right at the top of the wild card and within striking distance of Boston.

2007-08-15 14:17:21
833.   Max
827 Yup. Funny how I have an absolutely awful memory for so many things, but as soon as you brought up Mo's August struggles, I flashed back to this game:

without knowing the date, and it happened to be on August 10th two years ago. Uribe and Podsednik beating Mo...yikes.

Granted today's loss was a bit more deflating, but still, these things happen. I'll breathe easy as long as Mo's not hurt or something, and be glad we're still in the hunt.

2007-08-15 14:20:40
834.   Mattpat11
833 Vernon Wells got him right around then as well. That was a bit easier.
2007-08-15 14:28:32
835.   Mattpat11
BTW, in case anyone was wondering, Stubhub is awesome. This is the second time I've used them this year, and both times its worked out perfectly. Knock on wood, but I really don't anticipate any major issues at the ballpark tomorrow.
2007-08-15 14:33:45
836.   Chyll Will
Left work early, feeling nauseous from a lunch that was medium-well and possibly infected with diner funk. I get back here and see everyone praising the lord one moment, then gasping for breath the next. What a game, glad I missed it since I'm already not feeling well.

It has to be encouraging that the youngsters are making strong contributions; look at it this way, when was the last time there was someone capable of possibly backing up Mo during a downturn like this? I think we'll get through this kind of thing better than you can imagine. Though I can't measure that in a cup, I think we all really feel it inside. I'm not very worried...

2007-08-15 14:43:57
837.   debris
832 Wishful thinking. Here's Mo for the last 5 Augusts and career:
2006 1.84
2005 2.65
2004 0.00
2003 3.38
2002 1.59
Career 2.30

Next theory.

2007-08-15 14:49:26
838.   yankz
837 Figures it'd take 3 rough games for you to return. How about the last 65ish games, eh?

Also, you're completely missing the point. It's not that he sucks in August. It's that there are occasionally weeks where he descends from Olympus. If you really want to make an argument, prove that he's never had a stretch this rough before, even in his prime. I'll give you a hint: he has.

2007-08-15 14:54:42
839.   Bama Yankee
837 "Next theory."

He's been watching too many Eric Gagne highlights?

2007-08-15 14:55:17
840.   vockins
837 I should be getting my Gagne jersey in the mail any day now.
2007-08-15 14:55:45
841.   weeping for brunnhilde
836 Hope you feel better, Will.
2007-08-15 14:57:21
842.   yankz
Mo from 9/4/04 to 9/21/04: 7 G, 6.1 IP, 7 ER, 9.95 ERA. He then proceeded to finish the year with four scoreless appearances.

Mo from 8/13/05 to 8/23/05: 5 G, 7 IP, 4 ER, 5.14 ERA. Finished the year 2nd in Cy Young voting.

Mo from 5/11/06 to 5/19/06: 5 G, 4.2 IP, 3 ER, 5.79 ERA. He finished the year with a 1.80 ERA.

Mo from 4/15/07 to 5/7/07: 8 G, 6.2 IP, 10 ER, 13.50 ERA. We all know how he did over the next three months.

Idiots always point to rough stretches and claim things like "He's getting old! He's DONE!" or "There must be some theory for Mo sucking!" No- he, like every other pitcher ever, goes through rough patches. He's just so good that people freak out when it happens.

2007-08-15 14:57:51
843.   yankz
839 Money.
2007-08-15 15:02:13
844.   tommyl
839 That made me laugh pretty hard. I can use the humor today. I'll admit two things:

1. It was definitely the right move to bring in Mo.

2. Even so, I just had one of those bad feelings. He's been giving up too many hits lately.

BTW, I would like to comment how impressed I am with the caliber of people here. Not a single person has posted something like, "Torre sucks! He should have done X Y or Z." Instead, most everyone recognized that he handled the game well (aside from the lineup construction), but it just didn't work out today. I'm willing to bet the commenters on a certain other blog were less rational.

2007-08-15 15:07:25
845.   Bama Yankee
842 pwn3d!!!11!!!one one shift one
Nice job, yankz. You knocked that one out like a Gagne changeup (or was that a fastball, who knows they are about the same these days).

843 & 844 thanks.

2007-08-15 15:18:10
846.   yankz
845 Man, you are on FIRE with the Gagne jokes.
2007-08-15 15:19:08
847.   yankz
I'll never forget an All-Star game during Gagne's dominant phase. He got interviewed, and basically said Mo was his hero. I couldn't help but thinking, "That's right, biatch. Know your place."
2007-08-15 15:28:27
848.   OldYanksFan
I agree that it's nice to see some understanding and calm over the last couple of dozen comments.

Obvioulsy, the liquor has taken hold.
We should keep in mind that this is 2 loses in a row, one with Karstens starting. 2 loses, not 5 or 6 or 10. Even so, we have played .700 baseball over the last 10 games.

2007-08-15 15:33:39
849.   OldYanksFan
I think we should also recognise that Torre is handling our 'new' team pretty well. He even brought Mo into a tied game.

And Cashman and the FO have REALLY come through, and constructed a younger, deeper more talented team then any of us expected.

And that moves at the MLB level take a little more time and thought then moves made in a Fantasy league.

And maybe a healthy Britton and a 'fixed' Bruney are still waiting their turn. I hate losing but I love this team.

2007-08-15 15:40:04
850.   seamus
all the talk is about Mo, but I'm psyched that Edwar did what he needed to to re-earn Joe's confidence. I've gotta believe that 2.1 innings with 1 hit and Ks has to earn him some cred.

Also, good to see Henn shut them out for a bit.

And Mo always has a couple of bad outings in April and a couple bad outings in August/September. This is so normal it is obscene.

Show/Hide Comments 851-900
2007-08-15 15:41:55
851.   Vandelay Industries
Even with the meltdown, it is hard to put this at Mo's feet. We couldn't push three runs across before the ninth today, and we couldn't push across a single run yesterday. It will always be hard to win that way, no matter who your closer is.

What I wonder about Mo is where is the high fastball? Everything is thigh high and below. It doesn't matter who you are, if all your pitches are in the same location, major league hitters will paste the ones that get a lot of the plate. His reluctance to go out of the zone to get swinging strikes or back batters off, or even change thier eye level, is as much resposible for his problems this year as anything else. When you don't throw 98 MPH, you have to get the fastball up every so often. I know all pitcers change, but I don't have the same degree of confidence in Mo these days. Not because he has lost anything, but because he isn't throwing the right pitches.

The O's certainlty went to work on Posada today with it.

2007-08-15 15:45:55
852.   Chyll Will
848 "Obvioulsy, the liquor has taken hold."

But the closest I come to drinking is root beer, next theory >;)

2007-08-15 16:00:48
853.   OldYanksFan
Some really nice words about 'the Scooter'
2007-08-15 16:09:55
854.   nyy jim
Grand Salami by Tori Hunter. Minn 6 Sea 1 going into the bottom of the 9th
2007-08-15 16:10:30
855.   Vandelay Industries
Torii Hunter Grand Slam top nine. Score 6-1 Twins. A blown opportunity to take over first in the WC.
2007-08-15 18:24:52
856.   Shaun P
855 True, but its also not losing any ground in the WC race, or the division race.
2007-08-15 19:39:10
857.   seamus
856 no kidding. We couldn't have been more fortunate with how the standings have turned out with 2 consecutive losses. We're primed to continue our charge. All we have to do is get away from Baltimore!

Which reminds me. It seems that every year there is one team (sometimes more) that shouldn't dominate us but does. Tampa Bay was that team a couple of years back. I take it as part of the process.

2007-08-15 19:50:31
858.   yankz
Phil mans up about the error (I love this kid):

Mo is disappointed in himself ;( :

(check out those comments...they make Pete's people look like Bill James)

2007-08-15 20:09:56
859.   tommyl
857 I make the statement again, Baltimore is not the 2005 Devil Rays. They are not a bad team, especially on the days when Bedard and Guthrie pitch. Look, Bedard has some number of starts where he's given up 3 hits or less. This team just swept the Sox. Give them a decent bullpen and a few more bats and they are really good.

Today's loss hurts, a lot. But we got beat. There were several positives today: A-Rod was 4-4 with a walk. Shelly hit that HR (maybe earning some starting time at 1B?) and Edwar was dominant. If we can manage to sneak Britton in for Villone or Farnsworth I'd say our BP is set for the stretch run. We remain tied for the lead in the WC and 5 back from Boston.

2007-08-15 21:19:02
860.   Vandelay Industries
859 I agree. Bedard is about as good as anyone out there. It's just more dissapointing when you fight back for a chance to pick up a game and then lose. But still tied and looking good.

Hughes interview was solid.

I love me some Mo, but why can't he ever say they were bad pitches and he got hit? He said they were good pitches and they got hit, and "I didn't do my job," which is true and I feel for him when he goes through this. But for our sake, don't say they were good pitches. They were flat, thigh and belt high, and again there was no use of the high fastball when he had a favorable count. What happened to using that pitch in 0-2 and 1-2 counts? You don't have to say you're tired, even if you are, but don't tell fans to fight their own eyes.

2007-08-15 21:26:37
861.   Vandelay Industries
The Reds broadcasters just called Josh Phelps a Rule V success story?

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