Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Yankee Panky #18: A bunch of bull(pen)
2007-07-31 08:55
by Will Weiss
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

If you believe what you’re reading, seeing on TV and hearing on radio, every team in contention is looking for middle relief help. And as far as the Yankees and their bullpen are concerned, the past couple of days have featured plenty of jibber jabber. Peter Abraham gave a clue into this on Sunday in a notes column that featured some surprising honesty from Joe Torre, a misleading headline, and a hitch in the second paragraph that spell check won’t catch but a decent copyeditor should.

While Pete Abes asserts that Scott Proctor’s removal from a primary set-up role is intended to restore confidence in the righty, Jayson Stark and George King write that Proctor is the most likely candidate to be dealt. This is due in part to the Cashman Manifesto of building from within. Joba Chamberlain’s move to the bullpen at Scranton, for all intents and purposes, is meant to accelerate his promotion to the Major Leagues. Yet Abraham wrote that the team had not formulated a plan to use Chamberlain as a reliever.

Which story is true? I wrote last week that it’s difficult to separate truth from rumor near the trade deadline. I would guess that Stark and King, two veteran writers that manned the Phillies beat for a long time, have it right. That’s not meant to discredit Abraham’s reporting. New information could have been presented between the time he filed his story and Stark and King filed theirs.

The Yankees are reportedly among four suitors for Eric Gagne, who has eclipsed 30 appearances for the first time since 2004 and made it known that if he's traded, he wants to go where he can be a closer and not a set-up man. Kat O’Brien reports that Gagne has a no-trade clause, but he cannot block a trade to the Mets or Yankees, two teams where he would be a set-up man. The Red Sox, who also have a solid closer, are also reportedly interested in the Nordique.

But after what’s happened to the most recent bespectacled, brittle reliever to wear a Yankee uniform (see below), is Gagne worth the risk, especially at that price?

From the looks of things, Kyle Farnsworth is approaching persona non grata status. Monday’s stories, specifically in the Post and Newsday regarding Farnsworth’s fall from favor and incompatibility with Jorge Posada stole some layout space from a big day by Johnny Damon (it sounds more entertaining when you picture the Matt Damon marionette from "Team America: World Police" saying Johnny Damon's name).

It’s no secret the Yankees were, and probably still are, shopping Farnsworth. Torre is in a big-time Catch-22 here; there is no usage pattern he can devise for Farnsworth that will convince anyone that the reliever is a part of the Yankees’ plans for the stretch run and beyond. If Farnsworth pitches, say, four or five times per week over the next couple of weeks as opposed to the recent number of twice in a nine-day span, the assumption will be made that the Yankees are showcasing him. If another prolonged span of Kyle the Sedentary occurs, it’s reasonable to believe he might already be placed on waivers and the Yankees are just waiting for someone to claim him.

I’ll be honest: I don’t care if Farnsworth is traded. It could very well be addition by subtraction. If you put Farnsworth's numbers next to those of Scott Proctor, Brian Bruney, and until six weeks ago, Luis Vizcaino, the hard-throwing four-piece bridge to Rivera is basically the same pitcher in four different sizes, shapes and colors.

If Farnsworth is traded, I believe it’s because of the feud with Jorge Posada. Farnsworth is not the first Yankee pitcher to complain about Posada. The catcher can be prickly — I've witnessed it on numerous occasions. I was surprised to not see any mention of pitchers who previously had problems with Posada. There would be no need to go into extreme detail about the Randy Johnson saga which culminated in the signing of Kelly Stinnett (a move Joe Torre rationalized by saying he “had a little more stick” than John Flaherty), the punches Posada and El Duque exchanged several years ago, or even Mike Mussina’s comfort factor with Wil Nieves this season compared to Posada. David Cone preferred Joe Girardi to Posada, even after Posada won the everyday job in ’98. A brief sentence or two listing prominent Yankee pitchers that did not see eye to eye with Posada would have added another dimension to the story. Tyler Kepner added a historical component to his main story Monday,  but not on the Farnsworth-Posada feud. Kepner likened Joba Chamberlain’s possible promotion to young relievers on recent World Series winners who were called up in July or August and had an impact on the pennant race.

Maybe it’s just me. I’m a history buff. As an editor, I always thought past events added value to a story when used properly. As a fan, I want to read a story or listen/watch a broadcast and connect it to a past event or events. If I can piece it together, the writers or broadcasters should be able to, from being around the team every day. The incidents I mentioned above could have been included in the writers' original drafts. (Maybe they were and were cut for word count restrictions.)

Do you agree? Do you think the past Posada feuds are relevant to the current one with Farnsworth?

* * *

“Impact” will be a buzzword today. It always is on Deadline Day. Like all of you, I’ll be scanning the wires for the latest. I’ll check back Wednesday with a best and worst of trade deadline coverage.

Talk to you soon.

Comments (149)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-07-31 09:05:25
1.   cult of basebaal
ESPN is now reporting that EDSP has been traded to the Dodgers for Wilson Betemit
2007-07-31 09:09:11
2.   Shaun P
1 Wow. Not bad. Now let's see if the Yanks want to use him to get rid of Cairo - or if Duncan goes down when Giambi returns.
2007-07-31 09:15:19
3.   ny2ca2dc
0 "FARNS WORTH LESS AND LESS" is priceless. Well played!

Proctor for Betemit would be a real nice trade, we have the makings of a sweet bench for a few years.

2007-07-31 09:17:19
4.   NJYankee41
I have to say I'm a bit mixed on this trade. I'm gonna miss EDSP. Unlike a lot of players on the team you could always tell he cared.

If Betemit replaces Cairo as utility I'm ok with, but if he doesn't and they don't find a replacement for Proctor I'm not.

Proctor may be inconsistant, but I've always believed that if he wasn't used so much he would have stayed fresh and preformed better.

2007-07-31 09:22:22
5.   E-Rocker
4 I agree with you. I always liked Proctor, but he was over, over, over-used. I would have much rather seen Farnsy gone...along with those ridiculous glasses.
2007-07-31 09:24:07
6.   williamnyy23
Farewell EDSP.

I like the trade, although I thought he wore the uniform well. His 2006 season was very valuable and he certainly gave his best effort. Still, it was time for the Yankees to start tapping some of their organization strength.

Betemit is still a relatively young player who has upside. He is already at least a league average bat who can play just about every infield position. This move is a significant upgrade if it means Cairo's role will be further reduced (or eliminated altogether).

Betemit should provide more value to the Yankees, both this year and seasons to come. I wish Proctor well.

2007-07-31 09:26:51
7.   bigcpa
Dodger fan here. You will enjoy watching Betemit. I'm afraid to ask what EDSP stands for...
2007-07-31 09:27:31
8.   williamnyy23
Here's a headline from
BoSox send reliever Pineiro to Cards for prospect

My first thought was why would the f$%^ing Cardinals deal a prospect for Pineiro. As it turns out, the prospect is so good he hasn't even been named yet.

2007-07-31 09:29:10
9.   NJYankee41
7 Everyday Scott Proctor! You will like his attitude and heart.
2007-07-31 09:29:55
10.   ny2ca2dc
4 5 Roger that, will miss the big fella. Would've loved to see Farns dealt instead, though ESPN is reporting there's little interest in him (shock). Loved the whole story with him, recall his little girl had health trouble at the start of last year, and how he has been such an important part of the BP. But alas, trading a fungible middle reliever for a guy who is a starting IF masquerading as a UIF is pretty sweet. Betemit has gotta be better than Lugo right now, no?

ESPN also reporting the Red Sox sending Pinero to the Cards for PTBNL. Guess that whole Pinero as closer experiment didn't quite work out now did it.

2007-07-31 09:34:06
11.   Max
Yup, add another one here who liked Proctor. I figured this season would be it for him as a Yankee (whether he was traded or not), but I do wish his last days here had been better. I never had the confidence in him to believe he could really be the set-up guy, but I liked his attitude and versatility....the exact opposite of Farnsworth-less.
2007-07-31 09:39:59
12.   NJYankee41
On a bit of a side note... I just checked out Dodger Thoughts to see what they thought of the trade and it was like Bizzaro World. Everything we talk about here, but just substituted with Dodger players and management. I felt like I was spying.

They even said they should send someone over here to see what we think of EDSP. I guess that would be bigcpa. Pretty funny if you ask me.

2007-07-31 09:40:24
13.   seamus
I'm disappointed. Not only do I like Proctor, but I feel that he has always performed well when given adequate rest. Trading him for a bench player, albeit a needed one, is a bit of a disappointment.

7 you'll like EDSP. So long as he becomes Occasional Day Scott Proctor. Torre abused him with use.

2007-07-31 09:44:14
14.   bp1
Will - in relation to your question "Do you agree? Do you think the past Posada feuds are relevant to the current one with Farnsworth?"

I don't know. Are the things you mentioned re: Posada and the other pitchers any different than what happens on other ballclubs? Given what we saw in Chicago earlier this year, I think there is probably a history of catchers and pitchers having rocky relationships. Pitchers have strong personalities, and it's pretty clear that Jorge has a great deal of "red ass" in him, as Alex would say. Maybe the two aren't always a good mix. Pitchers probably don't like it when Jorge tells the reporters after the game what he thinks of the pitcher's performance.

Is there more to it than that? I dunno. I can't say if the Posada/Pitcher history is different from other high profile catchers. That would be interesting follow-up to the story, not just concentrating on Posada and the Yankees.

2007-07-31 09:44:18
15.   bigcpa
I see Proctor's walk rate and HR rate are double last year. Has he lost control, velocity both?

From the left side Betemit is a monster- power to all fields. Extremely patient. Led the Dodgers in p/pa and walk rate (17%). Jerked in and out of the Dodger lineup every time he had an 0-4. Since May 1 he's hit .278/.391/.611 but still paying for an April slump. You must bat .280 to play for the Dodgers- period.

2007-07-31 09:44:32
16.   Alex Belth
Seamus, I liked Proctor well enough, and agree, he cared. But Betemit is a very nice player.
2007-07-31 09:44:43
17.   NJYankee41
I wonder if Torre will find a way to get Proctor in the game tonight.

It was so obvious that it had to be said ;)

2007-07-31 09:45:59
18.   bigcpa
12 And no I am not the official ambassador of Dodger Thoughts, but I appreciate the info exchange.
2007-07-31 09:47:39
19.   seamus
16 I hope you are right. I've never seen him play or anything so I really don't know much about him. Just his stat line. So you would know better than I.
2007-07-31 09:48:35
20.   seamus
15 thanks for that info. helpful to get to know who we've got.
2007-07-31 09:48:45
21.   Bama Yankee
17 It's too bad we are not playing the Dodgers tonight, because we might have seen Proctor pitch for both teams in the same game...
2007-07-31 09:48:57
22.   NJYankee41
18Haha. It was a funny coincidence.
15Wow. Good info. It sucks he was treated like that for a slow start.
2007-07-31 09:49:21
23.   yankz
I didn't realize there was a new thread up, so this is what I posted in the last one:

"As much as I hate Farnsworth, and I really hate him, as monkeypants said, he is almost average. Proctor leaving creates a huge innings hole in the bullpen, one that, given the injury, I'm not sure Chris Britton could fill. I'd only trade more relievers if they got Gagne.

Also, what the hell is Torre going to do now, without Proctor's arm to destroy?! "

I'll miss Proctor too, but Betemit has really kicked it up a notch recently (.279/.410/.544/.954 since June 2). He's played 3rd, SS, and 2nd this year. I'm not sure how much playing time he'll get. Maybe, given Phillips's reverse split, they could platoon at 1B?

2007-07-31 09:50:57
24.   yankz
Wow, I just picked an arbitrary date. He's been even better than that for a longer period of time, according to bigcpa's numbers in 15.
2007-07-31 09:52:08
25.   NJYankee41
Pete Abe reports that it looks like Edwar will replace Bruney real soon. I hope he's right.
2007-07-31 09:56:32
26.   yankz
However, Betemit only has a .752 OPS vs. lefties this year, and that's with a BABIP of .353- more than 100 points higher than his BABIP vs. righties. Career .643 OPS vs lefties.
2007-07-31 09:57:06
27.   williamnyy23
From PeteAbe:

"It also sounds like Edwar Ramirez could be on the way back at the expense of Brian Bruney. If not today, then soon."

It seems as if fate has taken a hand. With Joba looming and Farns all but on the way out, this little bullpen remodel kind of reminds me of the final godfather scene. All unfinished business taking place before the clock strikes 4PM.

2007-07-31 09:57:15
28.   Mattpat11
I posted this in the last thread, so I will again

We can find any number of me to fill Worthless' below average innings. An added bonus is that these men might be able to a) pitch on back to back days if needed. b) Pitch more than one inning if needed c)come in in the middle of an inning if needed and d)not pitch the 8th fucking inning.


What do we gain by keeping Worthless?

2007-07-31 10:02:15
29.   yankz
28 I agree that he's a useless waste of space, and Britton should've been up here a while back. However, that depends on him being healthy. You can't replace Farns with Edwar, because Edwar's apparently replacing Bruney. I guess Karstens, but wasn't he going to replace Henn? (I should say, I don't like the idea of Joba in the pen.)
2007-07-31 10:02:25
30.   williamnyy23
I can just see Joe Torre strumming a little Paul Simon now:

Where have you gone Everyday Proctor, a manager turns his lonley eyes to hoo hoo...what's that you say Robinson Cano, Everyday Proctor has left and gone away...

2007-07-31 10:02:25
31.   unmoderated
word, 28. the only thing i ever liked about kyle was the 'pr0FF3ss0r_F4rnsw0rth' character on The Dugout.
2007-07-31 10:02:29
32.   seamus
28 I don't know what happens, but we need to unload him. Send him back to the NL for a prospect or something. Anything. I'll be disappointed if we don't deal Farnsy.
2007-07-31 10:03:41
33.   rbj
Another one who liked Proctor and kinda sad to see him go. Word is, Scotty's right arm has already flown out to LA, it's so happy to get away from Torre.
2007-07-31 10:06:43
34.   bigcpa
26 Betemit rarely faced a lefty this year. From what I've seen he seems like a good candidate to give up switch hitting.
2007-07-31 10:09:23
35.   yankz
Pete's indicating the Gagne deal is likely dead. Down to the Sox and Cubs apparently. I really hope Chicago wins that one.
2007-07-31 10:09:30
36.   Shaun P
Add me to the list of Proctor admirers. Fare thee well in LA, EDSP.

34 Is it true that the Dodgers are looking for another starter? Is it possible they are going to use Proctor in that role?

2007-07-31 10:10:34
37.   Mattpat11
29 Addition by subtraction. Just dumping a miserable acquisition is going to help this team. Remove the problem and worry about a replacement after that. we have three more hours to get rid of the cancer and the rest of the day to find someone- anyone- that can at least match the horrid production while maybe being a little versatile.
2007-07-31 10:12:44
38.   yankz
Hey Dodgers spies, apparently Betemit was showcased at 2B recently. Any word on how he looked?
2007-07-31 10:12:47
39.   Shaun P
37 There's still the waiver trade process, which gives the Yanks another month. I think Kyle would pass through waivers with flying colors. Or else whatever team was foolish enough to claim him would certainly be stuck with him.
2007-07-31 10:12:59
40.   NJYankee41
34 How is his attitude. Did he complain a lot about not playing?
2007-07-31 10:13:40
41.   yankz
37 Yeah, okay, I'm convinced. I'm sure Miggy could throw a few innings out of the pen.
2007-07-31 10:13:59
42.   yankz
Note: 41 isn't sarcasm.
2007-07-31 10:14:17
43.   yankz
Well, OK, the Miggy thing is, but the convinced part isn't. I'll stop.
2007-07-31 10:14:55
44.   Greg Brock
Congrats for fleecing the Dodgers. Get over Betemit's low batting average if you have reservations about him. He walks and crushes the ball, but strikes out. He never got a fair shake in L.A.
2007-07-31 10:14:58
45.   Mattpat11
39 I don't want him on this god damn team another month. WHAT DO WE GAIN? What the hell did we gain from holding on to Carl Pavano til the bitter end waiting for "equal value?"
2007-07-31 10:16:06
46.   Mattpat11
41 Can he come in in the middle of any inning? If so, he's an improvement.
2007-07-31 10:18:33
47.   yankz
Now, Giambi should replace Cairo on the roster, but it'll probably be Shelley.
2007-07-31 10:19:17
48.   Shaun P
45 Me neither - but if no other team will take Farnsworth now, maybe they will in a couple of days when desperation sets in. Or they want to counter the last-second move their chief rival made.

Let's say the Cubs get Gagne at 3:59 EDT. Might the Brewers (with a pitching coach who can supposedly "fix" anyone) suddenly become more interested in Farnsworth, especially if the Yanks pick up most of the cost? I bet they would.

2007-07-31 10:25:06
49.   Mattpat11
48 That's playing with fire. What if the Brewers make all their last second moves today and have no use for The Worthless One?

I just keep flashing back to us holding out and holding out and holding out and holding out and holding out with Carl Pavano in hopes that he'd "raise his trade value" and then getting burned in the end.


2007-07-31 10:28:24
50.   OldYanksFan
0 "..and a hitch in the second paragraph that spell check won't catch but a decent copyeditor should"

Please enlighten the illiterate amoungst us.

I am torn about EDSP and feel the way I did about the Sheff deal. It seems like a smart move, given our needs. But I worry how well we can fill the hole.

Reading about whether Joba is being primed for an immediate place in our BP... I have to think that's a no-brainer. I mean, what possible reason would we take a stud SP and move him to the BP if not because we need him there right now?

And then something occured to me. Something dangerous to think about. Joba looks to have the potential to be a great closer, in the vain of Papsmear. If it turns out he is lights out for an inning or so, could this possibly mean the Yanks are looking to fill Mo's shoes?

I think this is a valid topic to discuss. We all love Mo, the history, the legacy. But what will it take to re-sign him? $40/3yrs? More? And do we have faith he has 3 good years left? Like what might be the case with Posada, can we afford to pay FA-inflated prices for what might be a players worst years? Papsmear was a stop-gap measure, but he proved too valuable in that role to move back into the starting rotation.

Could Joba to the BP have any bearing on the 'Mo resigning' issue????

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-07-31 10:29:43
51.   monkeypants
OK, I can get in on this "I posted something on the last thread" deal--

28 Right, we get the point--DUMP HIM. But I love how Farnsworth is considered the worthless by Yankees fans--a sign to some of Cashman's supposed incompettence and, worse, stubborness-- who then expect Cashman to turn around and trade him for something of value.

It's not an issue of what is 'gained' by not DUMPING HIM--the question is what can be gotten in return. It is quite possible that no one will take him, which makes DUMPING HIM rather difficult, no?

If he really is so bad that they should DUMP HIM, then he should simply be DFA'd, since anyone should be able to do a better job. But if that's the case, fault Cashman for not DUMPING HIM via DFA, rather than failing to trade him.

2007-07-31 10:31:18
52.   Shaun P
49 Me neither! But I'm guessing right now there are NO takers for Kyle, especially after what he pulled on Sunday (plus the crappy performance). I don't think Cashman is waiting for fair value, equal value, or any value - I think he is waiting for a team that will take Farnsworth in exchange for anything.

The only team rumored to have even a slight interest was the Tigers - and word is Jim Leyland said "No f'in way" after hearing about Sunday's game. The Yanks can't trade him to no one!

Though I suppose the Yanks could DFA Farnsworth, but that option is available at 4:01 too.

2007-07-31 10:31:41
53.   ny2ca2dc
If Cairo goes away, who's the pinch runner? Regardless, when Giambi comes back, there are going to be hard, hard decisions to make - do you bench Melky, or Damon? Best course would be to DH Giambi/Shelly when Giambi rests, Matsui at 1B, Damon in left, Melky in CF, Phillips LIDR/bench. Or swap Damon/Matsui 1B/LF if Matsui can't make the transition...

But the Damon to 1B experiment died on the vine a couple weeks/months ago, and Matsui was never tried out there, even though he should've spend all spring there...

2007-07-31 10:34:21
54.   OldYanksFan
Wilson Betemit is 27 and has a career OPS of .779. He looks like he's hitting better then 1 HR per 20 ABs. That's one hell of a UIF. He throws RIGHT. Anyone know his natural batting side?
2007-07-31 10:34:46
55.   Shaun P
50 No. There is one thing Brian Cashman would never do, because George Steinbrenner - even if he is truly is senile and senseless - would never allow it, and that is to let Mariano Rivera pitch anywhere else while he can still pitch well (which clearly he can).

And yes, the Yanks can well afford to pay Rivera whatever he wants for how ever long he wants.

IMHO, Joba in the pen is a way to force Torre to use someone competent in the set-up role, nothing more. Besides, the organization knows how valuable Joba is as a starter - there's a reason he's so coveted.

2007-07-31 10:35:56
56.   ChrisS
Scott Proctor is an excellent reliever under any manager not named Torre. I never disliked the guy and he had a decent ERA+ despite being abused. I have a feeling he will flourish in LA ... or his arm falls off.

Betemit is nice insurance policy against ARod leaving after the season and an outstanding BUIF. He wouldn't come close to replacing Alex's production, but he closes a hole.

I'd be very happy to see Edwar back in pinstripes next to Joba and both with some regular work. DFA Cairo and Minky, keep Duncan when Giambi comes back and we're looking at:

CF - Cabrera
SS - Jeter
RF - Abreu
3B - A-Rod
DH - Giambi/Matsui
LF - Matsui/Damon
C - Posada
2B - Cano
1B - Phillips

Bench: Duncan (RH), Betemit (S), Molina, and the OF with the day off.

I can't really complain with that line-up.

2007-07-31 10:36:58
57.   monkeypants
47 Yeah, it all depends on how Torre perceives of Betemit. We know that Phillips is now the 'firstbaseman guy', who can occasionally fill in at third. Basak is a 'back up infielder guy' who can play third and second. But only Cairo, apparently, can also be the 'back-up short stop guy.' Duncan is a 'back up DH, back up 1B' guy. When Giambi gets back, he'll be a 'DH and emergency 1B guy', along with Damon and sometimes Matsui.

This where Joe starts to get a little confused. See, he would appear to have too many 'firstbaseman guys' and 'DH guys,' but a critical lack of 'short stop guys,' even though he has two ML SSs playing every day. This is where Duncan will probably get squeezed out.

Now, if he considers Betemit a "short stop guy," then maybe Cairo gets left out, unless he only thinks of Betemit as "short stop guy" or "short stop and third base guy", but not a "second base guy." Then he'd have to keep Cairo and Betemit, and again Duncan would be squeezed out.

Of course, they could go with only 12 pitchers, and carry Cairo and Betemit and Duncan, or even replace Cairo (or Duncan) with another OF. But then Joe would have to figure what limited role in which to slot the "extra guy," and that might confuse him some more.

2007-07-31 10:37:46
58.   ny2ca2dc
54 His B-R page shows born 2001, so looks like you may be right about his age - though i thought he was 25 (bummer).

Looks like a natural Lefty batter: Career 818 OPS as a lefty vs RHPs, vs 643 OPS as a righty batter vs LHP. Someone mentioned he might be a good candidate to ditch switch hitting - not a bad thought...

2007-07-31 10:39:53
59.   Shaun P
53 Damon. Or Betemit when Damon is already in the game. The only guy the Yanks ever really need to pinch run for is Giambi, so I'm not worried.

I think Melky plays CF every day. Damon and Matsui rotate among LF and DH, with Damon occasionally sitting. Phillips plays 1B most of the time, but sometimes sits while Giambi plays the feed and the extra OF DHs. Otherwise Giambi DHs whenever possible. And when Abreu needs rest, Matsui goes to RF and Damon to LF.

2007-07-31 10:40:14
60.   monkeypants
53 Were you joking about PR? Otherwise, you answered your own question. If Giambi comes back and goes into the lineup, then Melky or Damon (or maybe Abreu) is going to sit. There are just only so many slots. Then, one of those three can PR, considering teh infrequency with which PR really comes into play.

The other option would be to carry 12 pitchers and call up an OF with some speed--maybe Thompson, or Gardner if all you really cared about was speed and emergency defense.

2007-07-31 10:40:18
61.   Mattpat11
51 Oh, I don't care what we get in return. The value we'll get in return is of the addition by subtraction variety. By dumping a bad, completely un versatile pitcher with a miserable attitude, we improve the bullpen and the team's chances.

Kyle Farnsworth throws 100 MPH. Idiot general managers in a pinch will totally ignore results in favor of velocity. Some argue that's the story of how Farnsworth got here in the first place. If you don't set impossible standards in the name of "getting equal value" getting rid of Kyle Farnsworth should be quite easy.

If, however, you've decided that getting rid of Kyle Farnsworth is admitting a mistake, you might be inclined to look way too high in a search for "equal value"

2007-07-31 10:42:05
62.   ChrisS
50 I think there was a post a few weeks ago during the mid-season A-rod negotiation attempt that the Yankees have made clear to both Posada and Rivera that they don't want to see either play for another team and that the feeling was mutual.

Rivera's been a Yankee since day 1 of his professional career.

2007-07-31 10:43:14
63.   rbj
I don't mind Joba taking over for Mo. Just give him a 3 year apprentice program -- this way he can learn how to pitch in the bigs by setting up for Mo.
2007-07-31 10:43:44
64.   monkeypants
54 58 Hmmm...that must be that new math. He was born in November 1981, so he is still 25, he will not turn 26 until after the season ends, and not 27 until after next season.

Assuming his birth certificate is accurate.

2007-07-31 10:45:20
65.   monkeypants
63 I do, because a top starting pitcher is worth more than a closer, even Mo.
2007-07-31 10:45:46
66.   OldYanksFan
53 Don't know if it works, but it looks great on paper, doesn't it. Better LF 'D' (with JD there), decent OPS at 1B (w/Mats), Melky in CF, lots of flexibility w/Cairo, Betemit and Phillips, although if JD/Mats move to 1B, either Phillips or Cairo is probably gone.

If I am Cashman, I do this.
1) Go directly to Baltimore.
2) Tell them Farns has great stuff, but needs to be taugh to pitch, and we DON'T have the time or luxury.
3) Tell them he comes cheap.
4) Tell them we want to move him and to make us ANY reasonable offer.
5) Give him back to Leo, and you might end up with a legit RP for cheap.

Leo made Farns very good once. I suspect Farn's greatest value is being on the same team as Leo.

2007-07-31 10:46:53
67.   Shaun P
61 My short list of "idiot" GMs (ie, guys who might be taken by Kyle's 100 MPH):

Bavasi in Seattle - but he doesn't need a reliever
Bowden in DC - but he doesn't need a reliever
Littlefield in Pittsburgh - but he doesn't need a reliever
Hendry of the Cubs - but he had Kyle once and isn't about to bring him back
Sabean in SF - another guy who doesn't need a reliever
O'Dowd in Colorado - hmm . . .

2007-07-31 10:49:18
68.   monkeypants
66 53 Again with the Matsui at 1B. What evidence is there that he can actually play the position? Or for that matter, play it better than Giambi (though Giambi may explode or fall into little pieces if he ever has to put a glove on again)?
2007-07-31 10:52:24
69.   Shaun P
61 Hey Mattpat111, this might make your day:

From Will Carroll over at BP:

"The Wilson Betemit for Scott Proctor deal is just the first for the Yankees, if everything breaks according to plan. The Yankees have two deals in the works, one that would jettison Kyle Farnsworth to one of a couple of destinations, and another that would reportedly bring Eric Gagne to the Bronx. Gagne comes with a high cost—rumored names include Alan Horne and Kevin Whelan—and Jon Daniels doesn't seem to be excited by any of the offers."

I don't think Cashman will give up Horne, but using Whelan is not a bad move at all.

2007-07-31 10:52:55
70.   monkeypants
66 53 And, moving Matsui to first is predicated on two questionable assumptions:

1] That Matsui's defense is really as bad as it looks to some observers--despite statistical evidence to the contrary. So bad, in fact, that whatever he gains on offense is lost on defense.

2] That Damon's defense in LF will be so good that he makes up for the colossal blackhole that his bat will create in a corner position; that what we are seeing from JD this year is just the product of injuries and not the permanent onset of GOJD.

2007-07-31 10:53:53
71.   Zack
I liked Proctor too, but let's not be overly sentimental. Proctor was far less consistent than joe thought he was, he had trouble with his breaking stuff, and hes 31, so its not like he's going to get all that much better. With more rest, he might, but I think Grady Little is somewhat in the Torre mold, no?

The big question now, as already discussed, is what happens with the roster. As of tomorrow the Yanks have Basak, Cairo, AND Betimit on the roster. That shouldn't wait for Joba to come up, so I assume Edwar will replace Basak today. Then Britton will replace Bruney, if Pete Abe is right about Bruney going down (could use to get back on track, if possible). But then that leaves the Giambi move. Obviously the right move is to DFA Cairo, but I have a very very very strong feeling that Duncan will be sent down, which would be so stupid

2007-07-31 10:55:27
72.   Zack
Steve Lombardi is trying to take credit for EDSP (well, in its full form) over at waswatching. I 100% feel that the moniker was born in the trenches of BronxBanter, agree?
2007-07-31 10:57:23
73.   OldYanksFan
68 I don't think he will make a good 1Bman. But I KNOW he is not a good LFer. How many plays has JD made already in a VERY VERY short tenure in LF that Mats doesn't get. Melky did the same. I like Mats a lot, but (regarless of what some D stats say) he is a liablitly in LF. He is giving away many doubles. Unless he is terrible at 1st, he's less of a liability there. Plus Philips can play against lefties and as a LIDR.

It makes us a better team all the way around. Matsui is a team guy, and will give it his best. I think it's worth a try during next spring.

But basically, as I watch him game after game, I can not kid myself anymore that he is an 'average' defender in LF.

2007-07-31 11:00:38
74.   monkeypants
73 The stats agree that he is a bad LF, but not as bad as you seem to think that he is. And he hits enough to make up for it, mostly. So you would propose the following sequence:

1] Play a bad LF out of place at 1B, where he will hit less well relative to his position, so that...

2] A good defensive LF can be put in his place who will hit well below his position's league average.

So, for the sake of defense in LF, you will sacrifice defense at 1B and offense at 1B and LF?

2007-07-31 11:00:49
75.   OldYanksFan
1) There is a big defensive gain too, in LF with JD.
2) This is ONLY based on the Yankees keeping JD and continuing to play him, which is quite real. JD is a good player having a bad year. He is still valuable on the bases, and hopefully will be valuable again at bat.
2007-07-31 11:02:55
76.   Mattpat11
Olney just claimed that the Proctor trade was made so they could have a third baseman next year.

I vomited a little.

2007-07-31 11:03:19
77.   E-Rocker
Looks like Gagne is going to the BoSox:

Red Sox Close To Acquiring Gagne

According to Ken Rosenthal, the Red Sox are the winner of the Eric Gagne sweepstakes pending Gagne's consent and a review of medical records. Rosenthal says Gagne might share the closer role with Jonathan Papelbon; it would not be shocking to see Papelbon become the setup man for the rest of the year. That would be a hell of a 1-2 punch regardless and a huge asset for the playoffs.

No word on which prospects went to Texas yet.

2007-07-31 11:03:22
78.   Zack
Fox Sports is reporting (Ken Rosenthal) that the Sox are trading for Gagne, probably the David Murphy and Gabbard deal. Makes that Sox a very very good BP and they ain't giving up all that much. Once again, if the reports really are that the Rangers wanted Horne, Marquez AND another prospect, that the yanks get asked for so much more than other teams..
2007-07-31 11:03:33
79.   ny2ca2dc
70 It's less about Matsui being a butcher in the outfield than keeping Melky in center every day. With Giambi as the DH, you run out of options, unless you get in to playing guys part time/sharing positions - and I'm of the opinion that sort of thing messes up guys' hitting. They're conditioned to play every day, and going to a part time schedule always seems to hurt their production.
2007-07-31 11:03:51
80.   NJYankee41
Foxsports is reporting Gagne is headed to the Red Sox. Damn.
2007-07-31 11:05:36
81.   OldYanksFan
74 "...offense at 1B and LF?"
Forget the positions. Offensively, it is swapping Matsui/JD for Philips or Melky. When Giambi is back at DH, how else can you play Melky, Mats, Abreu and JD in the same game. That is my reasoning.
2007-07-31 11:05:41
82.   williamnyy23
If Johnny Gomes in on the market, the Yankees need to make a serious offer. Not only would he make an excellent bat against LHP, but Michael Kay would get to tell one of his favorite stories almost every night (kind of his own version of the Twas the Night Before Christmas).
2007-07-31 11:05:42
83.   Shaun P
72 Actually Zach (and I haven't finished looking yet) but Google (so far) says you were the first person to use "EDSP" at the Banter in this thread (comment #336):

2007-07-31 11:06:08
84.   Zack
Murphy and Gabbard, if thats the trade, would be very little value for Gagne, compared to what they were asking for...
2007-07-31 11:06:35
85.   monkeypants
75 How big? How many runs?

And Damon is NOT that good of a player--that's the real myth. He is a career 103 OPS+; an average hitter. Even his OBP is not that good: career .353 (league average this season is .333).

His ONLY real value is if he can play CF. As an average to above hitter playing a defensive position, he's an asset. At almost any other position for which he is qualified to play, he is a detriment.

2007-07-31 11:06:42
86.   Mattpat11
82 I'd be forced to take action.
2007-07-31 11:07:14
87.   ny2ca2dc
60 Only partly joking about the PR; Cairo is a good runner. I don't think you NEED to have a PR guy on the bench, but Torre will never go to war without somebody who can at least run a little. If Melky is on the bench, then he'd be fine. Anyone know about Betemit's wheels? His B-R page seems to show career 5 steals with 5 (!) CS... so he wouldn't be much of a PR. Where's Jaret Wright when we need him?!
2007-07-31 11:07:52
88.   ny2ca2dc
64 oops. one of those days...
2007-07-31 11:08:00
89.   OldYanksFan
77 That sucks. Maybe they move Papsmear back to SP? This move makes the WC look better.
2007-07-31 11:08:23
90.   Zack
83 Really? Go me! Well, that says it was August, so maybe Steve is right...there goes our originality :) But at least I can claim EDSP! :)
2007-07-31 11:10:49
91.   yankz
58 Look out, Joe Nuxhall!
2007-07-31 11:13:05
92.   monkeypants
81 You can't forget the positions--that's how we ended up with Cairo at 1B!

If we are talking about next season, the Yankees should be able to make a major upgrade at 1B over the little Andy that could. They should be able to find some real, honest to goodness ML firstbaseman who can actually, you know, slug the ball likehis peers do. Likewise, it would be nice if they got adequate production out of LF.

Slotting Matsui at 1B just so Damon can get in LF satisfies neither.

The better solution going forward is to realize that Damon is a sunk cost, and use him as the 4th OF or strade him to team desperate for a 'proven veteran' in CF; suffer through Matsui in LF; sign a real 1B; DH Giambi.

Otherwise, the offensive gains that they make by having Jeter at SS and Posada at C (if he doesn't sign elsewhere or fall off the table) and A-Rod at 3B (if he doesn't sign elsewhere) will be sacrificed.

2007-07-31 11:15:27
93.   OldYanksFan
85 Look... you're watching these games, right? Have you seen JD make great catches in LF? Have you seen Mats 'juuuuuuuust' miss quite a few (including one last game off the tip of his glove because he won't dive). You've seen Mats get lost going to the wall on balls for 3 years, yes? Can you honestly tell me that JD is NOT a BIG defensive boost over Mats?

And again, this idea is ONLY if they want/keep JD in the lineup. If they dump him, fine. Melky is better in CF then JD, JD is better in LF then Matsui.

79 also makes a very good point. We like, and the players like, the same guys on the field as much as possible.

2007-07-31 11:19:23
94.   OldYanksFan
92 No, Miggy was not put at 1B because we wanted his bat or D. It was a stop-gap measure that went a week or 2 too long, because his D was better then expected, and he (amazingly) hit .250 or so when playing everyday.

Miggy at 1B was an aberation. It took the FO too long to bring up Philips. I don't think its a fair example.

2007-07-31 11:19:39
95.   Bob B
Just in Gagne to Boston pending medical clearance and his approval. We'll be hard pressed to catch the Redsox down the stretch if they add Gagne. Personally, I don't like losing Proctor to get another average hitter. And it gets real complicated when (or hopefully if) Giambi comes back. I'm hoping he hurts his foot during rehad. If Proctor wasn't overused so much by JT he'd have a lot better numbers.

Where is Dotel landing? Wish we had the stuff to get him.

2007-07-31 11:20:23
96.   Zack
Thinking about it more, If the Gagne deal does go through, I'm really not that upset. Hes very injury prone, the BP has already been a strength for the Sox (their real problem has been offense, and Dye, if that happens, really isn't good), and Gagne would have been a two month rental for the Yanks. Plus, if Texas did, in fact, turn down the package the Yanks supposedly offered for the one the Sox did, its their stupidity. And finally, the division was out of the hunt anyways...
2007-07-31 11:22:24
97.   ny2ca2dc
92 I think we're really looking at different timescales - I'm thinking/talking about what can happen right now-like, and I don't see Damon or Giambi or anyone else going away, so the question is what alignment of the talent on hand is the best - and it helps to take into consideration the manager's tendencies... Johnny Damon, 4th OFer, doesn't seem likely, especially as he's starting to look respectable. If Damon keeps it up, the best thing might be to bring Giambi along slowly in rehab, and wait a few weeks to see who's hot & who's not.
2007-07-31 11:22:33
98.   OldYanksFan
92 Do you think the Yankees will make JD @ $13m/yr a bench player? In principal, I AGREE with you. I am just trying to work with our roster as it is. If they get a 1Bman, and make JD a #4, I'm fine with that.

But it's a $26m loss.

2007-07-31 11:23:10
99.   monkeypants
93 I have seen the games, but I refuse to succumb to the temptation of anecdotal evidence. First, you have to compare Matsui to other LFs, not to JD (who's a CF and SHOULD have more range). Have you see every game that every other LF has playe? Do they all make that many more plays than Matsui?

By your logic, a team should start a CF at every OF position b/c he would field that many more balls. But clearly you have to balance offense with defense. You only point to the few great plays, but you ignore the horrible offense. For evey nice catch that he makes--and you really have to quantify how many more plays he is making per game--you get 4 or 5 ABs, as well.

You will never be convinced, but I am pretty sure that Matsui's offensive production over Damon outweighs Damon's defensive production.

79 does make a good point, you want the same guys on the field all the time. That means, Matsui in the field all the time and Damon riding the pine. Works for me.

Now, if you are talking about having JD and Matsui in the lineup, then it's shuffling the deck chairs, as you say. That approach makes sense when you are in the middle of the season, like now, and the debate is how best to deploy the assets at your disposal. But that's a silly way to approach the offseason and plans for the next. By committing to Damon-LF, Matsui-1B, Giambi-DH for next season, they have already sold themselves down the river.

2007-07-31 11:25:09
100.   monkeypants
98 It's a 26 million dollar sunk cost. They aren't saving their money by playing a player just to play him, even as he decomposes on the field before our eyes; nor are they spending more if they bench him

Someday teams will learn basic economic principles, such as sunk cost, and they will field better teams as a result.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-07-31 11:28:21
101.   monkeypants
97 OK, I see what you're saying. Yeah, for the immediate future it probably works best to use Matsui at DH and play Damon in the OF. And may rotate Duncan in a couple of days against tough lefties (then Matsui and Abreu can swap).

Actually, I am entirely sceptical about Giambi's comeback. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but I think he's going to need a lot of ABs to get up to speed. Once back, though, he has to DH, and then Matsui has to go back into LF (IMO), which means Damon goes to the bench.

2007-07-31 11:31:05
102.   pistolpete
From Stark's column on the possible trades, Re: Gagne:

"Texas asked the Yankees for primo pitching prospects Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain."

Golly, the other GMs in the league must either be all 1) stupid, 2) deaf (as in, they didn't hear Cashman say about 90-bajillion times that he wouldn't trade either of those guys, or 3) perpetuating the biggest running inside joke in the league by continuing to demand Hughes & Joba in every single trade.

2007-07-31 11:32:52
103.   ChrisS
100 Signing JD to that ridiculous contract (after letting Beltran slip away to the Mets the year prior in order to hang onto GOB) is one of the major mistakes I pin on Cashman. Unless I'm mistaken in who was responsible.

There's no good solution that makes the Yankees look good without dropping or benching one of their under-performing "superstars".

2007-07-31 11:34:06
104.   underdog
This seems like one of those trades that both Dodger fans and Yankee fans will grumble about a bit, or be split between copacetic with it and puzzled by. I liked Betemit and agree with other Dodger fans that he didn't get a fair shot there, though with Nomar and then LaRoche coming up (and Kent at 2nd) he didn't have much of a place. He also fared much better this year off the bench than as a starter. Which could be fine for him in NY. I don't know about him playing 1st - don't think he has? - but yeah he did play 2nd a little bit. that last "showcase" game he mishandled one ball (that took a tough hop) and otherwise didn't have enough chances to show me he's bad or good there. I think he can be more than adequate at 2nd though. Last I checked, you guys do have a 3rd baseman though. ;-)

I like Proctor more than many of my fellow Dodger fans seem to, but I do think trading a young offensive player for a middle reliever is rarely a fair trade on balance. Still this trade could help both teams, and likely won't hurt either of them much. Which isn't particularly exciting, but there you go. Maybe both teams will be happy.

2007-07-31 11:36:10
105.   BklynBmr
Not so fast... maybe. PAbe just posted: "The very reliable Gordon Edes of the Boston Globe is reporting that Texas may try and sign Eric Gagne to an extension."
2007-07-31 11:37:54
106.   yankz
Olney says Igawa is most definitely available.
2007-07-31 11:38:56
107.   Zack
105 That was before the Sox rumors.

Considering that the SI article specifically mentions that the Rangers were asking for the top prospects of both the Yanks and the Mets, if the Rangers really took such lesser prospects from the Sox, something aint right...

2007-07-31 11:39:57
108.   Shaun P
104 I asked this before, but no one answered, so . . . is it possible the Dodgers want to use Proctor as a starter (given all the injuries in their rotation)?
2007-07-31 11:42:46
109.   Zack
108 Possible, sure, but will proctor's arm agree to that move?
2007-07-31 11:42:48
110.   OldYanksFan
90 "First, you have to compare Matsui to other LFs, not to JD...".
No. We are not looking at other LFers. JD is ALREADY on the team. Its Mats OR JD in LF. Period. He has already played some LF, and all-in-all considered, very well. When Giambi comes back (and possibly next year), we have one OFer without a slot.

"By your logic, a team should start a CF at every OF position b/c he would field that many more balls."
Again, you are bringing up the 'Kitchen Sink Logic'. The Yankees have a better CFer then JD in Melky. We are moving JD out of CF because Melky is much better there. I think we should consider doing the same with JD and Matsui.

Torre has already dome this, but with Matsui at DH. If/when Giambi comes back, this is not an option.

We have 25 guys on our team. Taking about other teams is not relevant. I don't know who our 25 will be next year, but if we DONT get a 1st baseman and still want JD on the field, I think its a valid idea.

2007-07-31 11:42:58
111.   underdog
108 Can he be a starter at this point? I thought his arm was about to fall off? I do recall he started some in the minors when he first came up with the Dodgers, but that was ages ago. I guess I just don't see it. Though 4 innings of him can't be worse than 4 innings of Brett Tomko.
2007-07-31 11:44:04
112.   NJYankee41
107 It seems it becomes harder to trade as the farm gets better. The other teams become hellbent on the top prospects and will not accept anything less. They become pissed and trade with another team for less out of spite.

Thats my dramatic look at trades.

2007-07-31 11:44:07
113.   Zack
The lohud comment section is one of the most hilariously reactionary and shallow sites. Its really great reading, but then you just find yourself getting so angry and frustrated...
2007-07-31 11:44:55
114.   tommyl
I wouldn't really be upset if Gagne went to Boston. It does upgrade their BP for sure, but that was already a strength. You have Okajima and Papelbon as closer/setup, so I guess now Gagne slots in as closer or setup man, and Okajima becomes the 7th inning guy. That's definitely an improvement, but I'm not sure how many games Boston is losing because of the BP at the moment.

Now, if they were being creative and acquiring Gagne to close and move Papelbon into the rotation, that could be a bigger deal.

2007-07-31 11:45:36
115.   OldYanksFan
106 Hard to believe.
2007-07-31 11:47:15
116.   Shaun P
111 The Yanks had talked about moving Proctor backing to starting early last year, though they never did. He has made the occasional emergency start for the Yanks over time (though never this year). His arm is in danger of "falling off" only because Torre pitches him so much so frequently. He could probably handle starting again, given that he'd only be pitching every 4 or 5 days.

He might get lonely with all that time off, though. =)

2007-07-31 11:47:15
117.   tommyl
115 Why? He's been a bust, he's cheap, and with all of our prospects he doesn't really slot in anywhere (of course that could change). I bet Cash is trying to get back some of the posting fee, which is what is holding up the deal.
2007-07-31 11:48:28
118.   BklynBmr
107 I dunno, Pete addressed the Sox in the mix in previous posts. Won't be long 'till we find out regardless...
2007-07-31 11:48:43
119.   tommyl
108 They were indeed talking about that a few weeks ago. Not sure if they'll follow through or not. I honestly think they believe that if they curtail his workload a bit, he'll become effective again. That's probably right, but it'd never happen under Joe.

Maybe this can be the new strategy under Joe. Burn through some relievers in the first half, then trade then all away and burn through a new crop in the second. Its like a relay race!

2007-07-31 11:48:57
120.   OldYanksFan
Has anyone compare Okajima's (Japanese) stats to Iggy's (Japanese) stats? I haven't, but I thought Iggy was more highly thought of. It seems they are both abertations so far.
2007-07-31 11:51:06
121.   tommyl
120 I have begun to wonder if the abberation for Igawa is the relative lack of power for Japanese hitters. Igawa seems to be a good pitcher who makes a bunch of mistakes. In Japan if those mistakes were all singles/doubles instead of doubles/homers then you can see how his numbers would look a lot better there.
2007-07-31 11:51:22
122.   monkeypants
110 See 101. If you are only talking about this season, and we assume that Giambi is not coming back any time soon, then I agree with you: JD in LF, and Matsui to DH.

If Giambi comes back, then he has to go to DH, and Matsui goes back to LF.

Yes, Matsui would outhit Phillips, but I highly doubt that he will learn a new position adequately with probably < 50 games of on the job training.

So, even talking about this season, there is just very little way that I can whereby JD starts in LF and Matsui starts at 1B. If we are talking about next season, that is a different subject, and I have already commented on the plan.

2007-07-31 11:51:28
123.   OldYanksFan
Hey!!!!!!! ARod has SIX games to hit #500 at home! Should be an exciting week at the Banter! Anybody buy Champagne?
2007-07-31 11:52:29
124.   OldYanksFan
115 is sarcasm!
2007-07-31 11:55:48
125.   Bama Yankee
102 Obviously they haven't seen mehmattski's remake of "The Untouchables"

(Hey, if others can post things from the last thread so can I.)

2007-07-31 11:58:19
126.   OldYanksFan
122 "...we assume that Giambi is not coming back any time soon...". Jason has played his 3rd MiLB game and I have not heard about any reported problems. I say he's back on the 13th for our homestand against Baltimore, or maybe the 10th against Cleveland. I think his .400 OBP in front of ARod will be very pretty.

But Mats ain't playing 1B this year, so I guess it will be musical chairs. And even crippled, Giambi posted much better numbers then JD.

2007-07-31 11:59:49
127.   Simone
The Red Sox acquiring Gagne isn't good. Using Peter Gammons as a barometer, he hasn't looked this happy since they acquired Schilling and won the World Series.
2007-07-31 12:13:31
128.   RIYank
Simone, it's bad news for this year, I agree. But if they don't hold onto him, they're giving up a good starter (Gabbard) for an awfully short period of Gagne.
On the other hand, Gagne has to waive his no-trade right to go to Boston, so I presume he's satisfied that he'll be happy there and have the kind of role he wants. Maybe that means he intends to stay.
2007-07-31 12:19:27
129.   Shaun P
127 Let him be happy. We'll see how things work out.
2007-07-31 12:23:00
130.   williamnyy23
127 Apparently the Sox also had to include Engel Beltre, a very young, but highly touted international free agent.

I am not bothered much by the Gagne deal (if he accepts it), mostly because at 8 games back, I have my heart on the division, but my brain on the wild card. In other words, I don't anticipate Gagne impacting the Yankees until the ALCS. I'd gladly sign up for that possibility now, so I'll cross that bridge when we get there.

2007-07-31 12:23:37
131.   ny2ca2dc
128 Gabbard is not a good starter. He's a left handed Jeff Karstens. Word is though, the Sox also gave up Murphy, the OF prospect, and a teenage phenom-type from low-A ball. So maybe not a total sweetheart deal after all, but i sure would've liked to see Gagne come to the Bronx.
2007-07-31 12:24:56
132.   ChrisS

Yeah, flash forward to the ALCS (Sox up 3 games to 2) when in the 7th inning of Game Six with the score 4-3 Sox, they trot out Okajima, Gagne, and Papelbon for the 7th, 8th, and 9th.

Meanwhile in Yankee-land, sensing a possible comeback following a Cabrera lead-off double, Torre tells the BP coach to get Farnsworth and an unwashed Scott Proctor jersey up because they're going to be needed.

2007-07-31 12:30:57
133.   RIYank
131 Gabbard is a LH Jeff Karstens?
Here are their ERA+ (career, 162 game avg)

Karstens: 91
Gabbard: 125

Small samples, but I'd sure like to see your evidence for saying they're equals.

2007-07-31 12:31:43
134.   monkeypants
132 If that's the exact situation, I will have been surprised and ecstatic that they made it to the play-offs, let alone got out of the first series, and I will probably already have praised Cashman for making some or other move that helped the team overcome the WC deficit.
2007-07-31 12:33:12
135.   tommyl
132 And A-Rod hits a homer off Papelbon?
2007-07-31 12:37:22
136.   ChrisS
134 I call shenanigans.
2007-07-31 12:41:28
137.   ny2ca2dc
133 Those samples are so small to be completely worthless & misleading. Have a look at the PECOTA forecasts, they're quite similar. Here's a quick quote from the BP chat:

bnjoiner (NY, NY): What's Gabbard's upside? Mutually beneficial deal here? Seems like it.

Trade Deadline Team: No. 4 on most staffs, but a No. 2 on a staff as bad as the Rangers'

2007-07-31 12:58:12
138.   williamnyy23
Not sure why, but I'm glad the White Sox traded Mackowiak. It seemed as if he had 2 hits per game against the Yankees this year.
2007-07-31 12:59:41
139.   tommyl
Gee, I guess those MVN guys weren't right after all. I hope they post an apology. Its one thing to say something is in the works and speculate, its another to claim its a done deal.
2007-07-31 13:01:37
140.   NJYankee41
Gabbard mLB:

Karstens mLB:

Minors aren't always the best indication of how good a player will do, but it is a much larger sample size. It shows the two pitchers are pretty similar in terms of what kind of level pitcher they are.

2007-07-31 13:14:34
141.   pistolpete
140 So either there were shenanigans in the Gagne deal or they overreacted to Gabbard's 'flash in the pan' stretch this season.

Either way, the Rangers' front office is run by brain-damaged chimps.

2007-07-31 13:16:33
142.   tommyl
141 Beltre is by all accounts an elite prospect, similar at this stage to Jose Tabata. Would you have given up Karstens, Gardner and Tabata for two months of Gagne?
2007-07-31 13:17:55
143.   tommyl
Has anyone heard anything on Farnsworth? I mean we can always put him on waivers, but still...
2007-07-31 13:18:34
144.   tommyl
143 Thinking about that, I would love to see Kyle DFAed, pass through waivers and be assigned to the SI Yankees.
2007-07-31 13:21:02
145.   williamnyy23
141 For 2 months of a reliever, Texas received a possible end of the rotation starter, 4th outfielder and highly thought of, but very young prospect. That's not so bad.

Clearly, the Red Sox are better off, but add in the $3mn the Sox used to convinve Gagne to come aboard, and I don't think you can say the price was cheap.

2007-07-31 13:22:56
146.   Yu-Hsing Chen
Murphy isn't as good as Gardner, he's Gardner thats 2 year old and no speed and only marginally more pop
2007-07-31 13:26:48
147.   williamnyy23
146 Not sure how that's relevant...did Texas turn down Gardner?
2007-07-31 13:30:25
148.   Yu-Hsing Chen
no, it's just a comp problem, apparently Texas decided they rather trade for guys with lower ceiling but can play right now than guys that are still a little bit off but have better ceiling, i guess that the Rangers are apparently utterly delusional in that they think they can compete in 08.
2007-07-31 13:31:41
149.   Yu-Hsing Chen
and do so with a CF that profile at best a 8th/9th hole hitter and a crafty lefty as being key pieces

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