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Sloppy Split
2007-07-07 20:27
by Cliff Corcoran

The Yankees and Angels played and ugly, sloppy game on Friday night that saw two runs score on errors, another called back when Robinson Cano missed the bag rounding third, and several other poor plays (such as missed cutoff men and third outs made at third base) on both sides of the ball and both sides of the field.

The pitching was pretty crappy as well. Bartolo Colon, who was bounced with two on and none out in the third, allowed seven runs (including both bequeathed runners, who scored on Darren Oliver's watch). Andy Pettitte made it into the sixth, but left with none out and a man on and was charged with eight runs on the night, including that bequeathed runner, who scored with Edwar Ramirez on the mound.

Ramirez allowed an additional run of his own in the sixth to run the score to 9-9. The Yanks broke that tie in the seventh when Johnny Damon drew a leadoff walk from Chris Bootcheck, stole second, moved to third on a Melky Cabrera single, and scored when Gary Matthews bobbled Melky's hit in center. Alex Rodriguez then laced a line-drive homer to the seats in left that put the Yankees up 12-9. Remarkably, Ramirez, Scott Proctor and Ron Villone managed to shut the door at that point, while the Yankees plated two more in the eighth against Dustin Moseley to put the final score at 14-9. Ramirez earned his first major league win despite retiring just two of the seven batters he faced against their will (one of them sacrificed).

Yesterday, following a joyous Old Timer's Game that saw Paul O'Neill and Scott Brosius lace hard singles in their first Old Timer's action, and Bobby Murcer make a triumphant return to the field with a hard line out, the Yankees played a game that was very much the opposite of Friday night's circus, but was also decided by sloppy play and poor decisions. Coming off his dominant two-hit performance against the Twins, Roger Clemens held the Angels to one run on five hits and a walk over eight efficient innings (98 pitches). Angels' ace John Lackey matched Clemens almost exactly (one run on five hits and a hit batsman over eight innings), but upped the ante by striking out eleven Yankees (including Melky Cabrera four times) and throwing 72 percent of his 107 pitches for strikes.

The Yankees got their one run in the bottom of the second on doubles by Hideki Matsui and Bobby Abreu. The Angels got theirs in the top of the third on a leadoff double by Garret Anderson and a pair of productive groundouts. With the game still tied 1-1 in the ninth, both managers turned to their bullpens, doing so exactly as they should. Mike Scioscia got three scoreless innings from his set-up ace Scot Shields, then turned to his closer in a still-tied game on the road. Joe Torre worked his bullpen backwards as he should have, starting with a pair of shutout innings from Mariano Rivera, then a scoreless frame from Kyle Farnsworth, then turning to the fully rested Luis Vizcaino rather than Scott Proctor, who had thrown 21 pitches on Friday.

Vizcaino pitched around a two-out single in the twelfth, volleying back to Francisco Rodriguez, who stranded Hideki Matsui at second base following a one-out walk and a surprising stolen base by striking out Jorge Posada and getting Bobby Abreu to ground out. In for his second inning of work, Vizcaino gave up a leadoff double to Howie Kendrick, who had been making highlight reel plays at second base all day long (mostly on balls hit by Miguel Cairo). Jose Molina then attempted to bunt Kendrick over to third, but fouled off the first attempt, then missed the second, taking off the play. After ball one and a trio of fouls, Molina grounded to the left of Miguel Cairo, who was again starting at first base in place of the stiff-necked Andy Phillips. Cairo fell to his left and smothered the ball, but bobbled it as he came to his feet, then, perhaps forgetting that a Molina was running, made a desperation throw that sailed behind Vizcaino who was covering the bag. Cairo's throw sent Molina to second and allowed Kendrick to score the tie-breaking run. Cairo was charged with two errors on the play, giving him four at first base in two games (on Friday night he made a nearly identical play throwing behind Pettitte covering first and allowing a run to score, he also flubbed a ball in the tenth inning of yesterday's game) and pushing the Yankees' total to five on the day (Kyle Farnsworth threw wild to first base in the 11th, and Hideki Matsui booted a single in the fourth to putt the batter on second). Vizcaino retired the next three men in order, but the damage had been done.

The Yankees staged a rally in the bottom of the 13th. Cairo, attempting to atone for his errors, singled with one out, stole second, then moved to third on a ball that Rodriguez threw clean over Molina's head to the backstop. Suddenly the Yankees were a productive out away from re-tying the game.

In the third inning of Friday night's mess, with one out, the Yankees up 6-3, and runners on the corners, Joe Torre called for a suicide squeeze, which was perfectly executed by Miguel Cairo with Jorge Posada charging from third base. Now, with Cairo on third and Johnny Damon at the plate, Damon stood tall as Francisco Rodriguez threw three more balls, resulting in the same set up (runners on the corners, one out) in a sudden-death situation (extra-innings, down by one). Unlike the meaningless squeeze on Friday, a squeeze bunt here would have tied a game that otherwise could have been lost on a single double-play grounder. The man at the plate was Melky Cabrera, who already had five successful sacrifice bunts on the season. In addition to the squeeze, having Damon, who had stolen two bases on Friday night, steal second on Rodriguez (who had already allowed a steal to Hideki Matsui of all people) would have eliminated the double play and could have resulted in either a delayed double steal or a throwing error that would have gotten Cairo home without any help from the batter.

I probably don't need to tell you what happened, or rather, what didn't. No steal. No bunt. Melky struck out for the fifth time in the game, and Derek Jeter, who had hit into an inning-ending double play in the eleventh, grounded into a fielder's choice to give the Angels a 2-1 win in 13 innings.

I've lost track of the number of times Joe Torre has failed to employ the squeeze bunt when a successful one would either tie or win a game, but I can approximate that number by saying it's every time. According to Baseball Prospectus 2007, Joe Torre did not call for a single squeeze from 2004 to 2006 and he sure as hell didn't call for one in the 11th inning of Game 4 of the 2003 World Series. In a lineup that includes Damon, Cabrera, Jeter, Abreu, Cano, and Cairo, all of whom will lay one down from time to time, be they bunting for a hit or, in the case of Cabrera, Cairo, and, stupidly, Jeter, sacrificing, the squeeze bunt should come in to play regularly in sudden-death situations. Instead it never does, and the Yankees are 6-14 in one-run games.

Today they try to win the rubber game behind Chien-Ming Wang who threw seven scoreless innings against the Twins in his last outing. The Angels counter with Ervin Santana, who has a 6.88 ERA over his last three starts, though he did strike out 11 Rangers in his last outing.

Comments (241)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-07-07 22:49:00
1.   bobtaco
I'm sick of not seeing the squeeze bunts when it counts too. I was shocked to see it the other night.

I wish there was mandatory instruction in the Yankees minor league system for EVERY batter to learn to sacrifice bunt. In the playoffs, and other tight games, it is necessary to be able to get a bunt down, whoever you are. I don't want the excuse available that Batter X isn't a good bunter, doesn't know how to bunt, etc. I want to score the damn runner from third with less than two outs, 9 times out of ten.

2007-07-08 03:27:55
2.   Mattpat11
The one thing I will give Torre and Cabrera is Melky's Ks to that point all came against Lackey. When they pulled Lackey, he got a base hit up the middle off Shields.
2007-07-08 05:42:26
3.   The Mick 536
Didn't Roger return to the Bronx to get some run support?

Why does every pitcher become Cy Young when they face the Yankees?

Joey. 5 errors! But they weren't really errors? What were they?

Just musing into my java.

2007-07-08 05:58:28
4.   Jim Dean
Can someone explain why Cairo is still the starting 1B? And I don't mean a neck strain for Phillips. How the hell can the GM do nothing all season at 1B?

So Brian Cashman, you thought Doug Mghdsxfkj would be a capable 1B even as he was barely a starter for the Kansas City Royals last year? Really?

Or that Josh Phelps would be a capable platoon partner with Torre filling out the lineup card based on the BFoG scale? Really?

Or that Andy Phillips would be called up and simply inserted at 1B even after he was deemed the starter in spring training last year and sat behind Cairo? Really?

Or that Miguel Cairo is ever an option at 1B even as he's played more games there over the last two years than he has in the rest of his career? Really?

2007-07-08 06:03:16
5.   vockins
3 Lackey's better than any starting pitcher the Yankees have had on their roster in this millennium.
2007-07-08 06:11:05
6.   Jim Dean
5 In case you haven't noticed, CMW is pretty darn good - indeed second in the CY voting last year. And, Clemens has been pretty darn good too.

Meanwhile, has Lackey (career ERA+ = 112) ever gotten one CY vote?

2007-07-08 06:23:32
7.   vockins
5 Cy Young voting as a measure of a pitcher's worth? You can do better than that, Dean. There's an argument to be made that Wang is better than Lackey, but it doesn't begin there.

Should the Yanks trade Jeter for Morneau? They need a first baseman.

2007-07-08 07:11:23
8.   Jim Dean
7 Well, if you want to get all technical...

Mussina, Clemens, and Wang have all been better than Lackey over their careers. Probably since 2001 (your criteria - or 2004 for CMW) too.

Going forward, Lackey might be better, but he hasn't been so far. Now if you want to pick and choose which years to include and which to ignore...

2007-07-08 08:10:31
9.   weeping for brunnhilde
2 Yes, Mattpat, but Lackey and Rodriguez have that exact same filthy breaking pitch, the one guys swing right over the top of.

There was no reason to believe Melky could hit Rodriguez, a near-unhittable pitcher.

He looks every bit as dominant today as he did in 2002 when he made mincemeat out of our guys, winning the series singlehandedly, as it seemed.

2007-07-08 08:20:41
10.   atc
Anyone else catch this comment from Pete Abe yesterday, in response to a poster who argued that Phelps was a better option at first than Cairo?:

David:

You're right, I'll never admit something that is wrong. Meanwhile Phelps has yet to get an at-bat this month with the Pirates, a bad National League team. So that makes seven teams (Toronto, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, Detoit, Baltimore, the Yankees and now the Pirates) who either cut him, traded him, left him unprotected or didn't use him.

It's staggering that all of those baseball people know less than you about evaluating players.

Cairo botched it up today but good. But anybody would have to admit he has played pretty well for them in the last month, offensively and defejnsively. I didn't see you calling for Phelps the other day when he put down that squeeze bunt.

Meanwhile, if I had the power to run people out of town I'd certainly use it on somebody other than Phelps.

Thanks for checking in.

2007-07-08 09:29:13
11.   mehmattski
10 Yeah, if he had that power he'd probably use it on Alex Rodriguez. Or Edwar Ramirez. Or anyone else the "statheads" like.
2007-07-08 10:01:34
12.   weeping for brunnhilde
Ok, Team, how are we feeling about today?

I wonder whether Wang's stuff will be as effective against these Californias. Wang's a contact pitcher and the Californias a contact team.

Perhaps Wanger should try to execute his strikeout game plan today. Should be a good game, Wang's always fun to watch.

2007-07-08 10:03:08
13.   mehmattski
12 Why go with a strikeout plan against a contact team? The slider and change have a better chance of being hit hard with mistakes. Going with the normal Wang-plan of sinker, sinker, sinker, will make the free-swinging Angels GIDP themselves into oblivion.
2007-07-08 10:10:11
14.   weeping for brunnhilde
13 Interesting. Perhaps you're right.

I was just thinking that with a team that likes to put the ball in play anyway, they might be more practiced at hitting those sinkers hard enough to find holes whereas other teams, when they hit the sinker don't hit it hard enough to find those holes as often.

It just seems to me that attempting to keep them from putting the ball in play is a more effective way to thwart their game plan than conceding the ball put in play, which plays to their strength.

I could be way off, I don't know.

2007-07-08 10:11:29
15.   OldYanksFan
Initally, I was for the SuiSqz. However, after 2 fake throws and a pitchout, it was obvious that the Angels were thinking that way too. So what were the odds that AFod would throw anything straight?

That low moving curveball gets batters hitting chopping weak ground balls. However, a weak ground ball here probably scores the run unless it's right back to the pitcher.

My questions:
1) Anyone know the odds of scoring with 1st and 3rd and one out (yes... I know it's highly dependent on who's pitching, batting, etc... but in general)?

2) If KRod was tough to hit because of that nasty curve, how hard is he to bunt, when's he's looking for a bunt?

3) If the SuiSqz failed and the runner was out at the plate, who here would NOT immediately call for Torre's job?

I don't know what the 'right' call was. The situation was prime for a Suisqz, but I didn't like the FRod/Melky matchup. I don't think there is an obvious 'right' answer here. Given the circustances (FRod/Melky and the top of the order coming up) I don't know what the better choice was.

Didn't Torre try the SuiSqz last week (got a foul ball on it)? That would be 2 in the last week. Isn't that a better indicator of Torre's immediate frame of mind then "Torre did not call for a single squeeze from 2004 to 2006".

DJ/Melky/Jetes/AGod: 1 for 20. Thats the story to me. However, since if Torre had call the Suisqz, and IF it had been executed, and IF a Mo-less BP could have held on for a win... well I guess you can blame this one on Torre.

2007-07-08 10:12:04
16.   Bob Timmermann
10
Jim Tracy has unusual relationships with first basemen. If Tracy isn't using Phelps in Pittsburgh, he must find Phelps's defense extremely deficient.

Tracy will base this on one error normally.

2007-07-08 10:12:45
17.   randym77
I see Andy's starting again.

And he's hitting better than half our lineup. When did that happen?

2007-07-08 10:13:01
18.   matt nokes forever
14 But Clemens seemed pretty effective yesterday with only three Ks... so as long as Miggy doesn't go all Knoblauch again, the contact pitching of Wang should be o.k.
2007-07-08 10:16:26
19.   mehmattski
15 Whoa, lots of abbreviations there ;-) Not sure the percentage of scoring exactly one run from a 1st and 3rd/1 out state, but this matrix shows the average number of runs scored in an inning following the given state, based on real data from 1999-2002:

http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902.html

So it's 1.2 runs/inning following 1st/3rd and one out. Perhaps the thinking was that Torre wanted to win the game, not tie it up, and even giving up the out on the squeeze for one run would then give the Yankees a runner on second and two out for Jeter. Then again, the chances of Cabrera grounding into a double play are perhaps great enough to suggest the squeeze.

2007-07-08 10:18:44
20.   mehmattski
Wang/Posada/Guidry seem to have agreed with weeping and the strikeout strategy here.
2007-07-08 10:18:52
21.   matt nokes forever
14 But then again, Wang already has two strikeouts and Miggy isn't in the lineup... so I obviously know nothing. But who's counting?
2007-07-08 10:23:24
22.   mehmattski
Uh oh. Villone is warming.
2007-07-08 10:23:42
23.   Jim Dean
12 After 1 inning, 12 wins. :)

If anyone missed it, Phil Huge is starting in Tampa tomorrow.

2007-07-08 10:26:11
24.   matt nokes forever
Ha!
2007-07-08 10:28:03
25.   mehmattski
Flaherty and Singleton are correct in their memories. Flaherty never struck out more than three times in a game (happened four times). Singleton struck out three times in a game 21 times, and four times in a game once.
2007-07-08 10:28:15
26.   bob34957
23in Dunedin,Fla, might leave work early then travel west across state to see Hughes
2007-07-08 10:28:36
27.   RIYank
I just got here -- is there a problem with Wang's finger? Nail?
2007-07-08 10:29:07
28.   mehmattski
GodZIRRRA!
2007-07-08 10:29:20
29.   RIYank
Godzilla!

Man, just when we needed some power, Godzilla Awakes.

2007-07-08 10:29:45
30.   bob34957
Matsuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2007-07-08 10:29:53
31.   randym77
Go-Go Godzilla!

Wang's been having trouble with that finger nail for a long time.

2007-07-08 10:29:54
32.   weeping for brunnhilde
Wow.

Who was it the other day who pointed out Hideki's batspeed and how explosively the ball leaves his bat?

Well there we saw it again.

Man.

2007-07-08 10:30:27
33.   mehmattski
27 No official word, though Villone is throwing, but not from a mound, and Kay said Bruney had been throwing earlier. Maybe the Yankees will score enough runs this half inning that it won't matter.
2007-07-08 10:31:00
34.   bob34957
We need to crush the Halos!!!!!!! I hope our O has a mighty orgasm!
2007-07-08 10:31:26
35.   matt nokes forever
32 It's like it just speeds up exponentially the moment Godzilla makes contact. Wow.
2007-07-08 10:31:35
36.   51cq24
27 he's sitting in the dugout and looks like he's still in the game
2007-07-08 10:32:38
37.   mehmattski
32 Hit Tracker Online keeps track of homers, including how fast they come off the bat. And Matsui has a couple of the fastest home runs (speed off the bat) so far this year:

http://tinyurl.com/34qm5u

For comparison, he calculated that the homer when Mantle hit the facade at Yankee Stadium must have traveled 125 mph off the bat.

2007-07-08 10:33:09
38.   matt nokes forever
On the bright side, looks like Santana is just serving up BP.
2007-07-08 10:36:12
39.   Jim Dean
Shef homered in the first off of Dice-K - 21 on the year for him. I'm now solidly in the what if camp.

What if they said: Shef, you're the DH. And no extension until you prove you're healthy.

What if they stuck Giambi at 1B? It's not like they prevented an injury by having him DH. And it's not like they got a 1B.

Then Melky and Phillips are on the bench for the injuries that cropped up. Yanks are still at the same place but with at least 5 more wins.

2007-07-08 10:37:51
40.   matt nokes forever
39 5 games at least... what's our record in 1 run games? I think it's closer to the 7-9 win range.
2007-07-08 10:44:01
41.   RIYank
Not a single worm killed so far.
2007-07-08 10:50:52
42.   51cq24
39 unfortunately, brian cashman can't just decide to be solidly in the "what if camp."
2007-07-08 10:58:52
43.   mehmattski
39 JL25and3 can tell you what an unhappy Sheffield can do to a team. The fans on the first baseline in Milwaukee can tell you as well...
2007-07-08 10:59:37
44.   Zack
Oh dear God, not the "we should have kept Sheffield" crap again. Almost as awful as the "we should have kept Randy crap..."
2007-07-08 11:00:55
45.   Jim Dean
41 No one's mentioned it, but he might have more trouble throwing the sinker with the nail trouble. So there might be no choice to throw the hard stuff and the slider.

40 What's interesting is that Shef has already been worth 3.8 wins above replacement. And he would have been replacing a replacement level player (Mhgjfk, Cairo). Over the course of this season, Shef alone could have easily been worth 10 wins.

2007-07-08 11:01:54
46.   OldYanksFan
39 As my saintly mother used to say:
"IF the Queen had balls... she'ld be King"
2007-07-08 11:03:03
47.   Jim Dean
42 But he could get a 1B - anyone, anything, something...
2007-07-08 11:04:43
48.   OldYanksFan
45 Would you have given him 3 years at $13m each? I, for one, love the guy. I was disappointed to see him go, but after Abreu's 2006, it seemed justified. Who knew?
2007-07-08 11:06:19
49.   Max
39 40 47 Dead horse suitably beaten on Sunday, July 8th, 2007. Enough.
2007-07-08 11:12:02
50.   Jim Dean
Just cause you 49 said so on your own mighty horse...

48 Read again 39. Tell him he needs to prove he's healthy with a solid year. And 43 he didn't cause a stink in 2003 when he was in a walk year - 167 OPS+, 3rd in MVP voting. If anything, the man knows how to play for a contract.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-07-08 11:16:25
51.   matt nokes forever
49 Thanks for notifying me, Max. I'll be sure to file that somewhere.
2007-07-08 11:19:09
52.   RIYank
45 re 41 Looks like the sinker is okay now. That's the kind of inning we want. Who could realistically pitch from the pen today? Wanger needs to go long. Let's see, he's going 14/inning, that should be good enough if he keeps it up.
2007-07-08 11:20:33
53.   matt nokes forever
50 Who knew that the standard for suitably beating a dead horse was a half-dozen postings? I sure didn't. Thank god Max informed us.
2007-07-08 11:22:26
54.   RIYank
Ouch. I'd just as soon Posada was not playing in the All-Star Game, by the way.
2007-07-08 11:22:39
55.   Jim Dean
48 BTW: My real problem now, well after the fact and having changed my mind, is really based on two things only Cashman and his crew could have known at the time:

1) Did they know that Sanchez would need TJ? Or that it was highly likely?

2) Did they know they'd aim for nothing at 1B or on the bench?

#1 we can't know one way or another. But #2 looks like a solid yes. If only that is true - it was a terrible call.

2007-07-08 11:23:00
56.   matt nokes forever
Cano!!!
2007-07-08 11:23:09
57.   RIYank
Ahhhhhh. Abreu and Cano both hitting hard, that's good for the soul.
(The 'ouch' was for Posada HBP.)
2007-07-08 11:23:47
58.   Shaun P
49 Well said, sir.

50 My rough count is at 1750 comments that mention the Sheffield deal, the Unit deal, or both. That's from the start of the season, BTW, and doesn't include the 1500 or so comments from the offseason and spring training.

And boy do I wish I was kidding.

2007-07-08 11:23:54
59.   Zack
53 Well, a half dozen posts and about 1,000 other posts in the last month alone...All of you should just start your own blog: why we hate Brian Cashman and will second guess every single one of his moves but figure all the good ones were blind luck etc...Then you could have free reign to say the same things over and over and over again
2007-07-08 11:24:25
60.   RIYank
Oh, sweet.

Santana isn't really a very good pitcher.

2007-07-08 11:24:39
61.   bob34957
wouldn't ya know Robbie Cano!!!!
2007-07-08 11:24:45
62.   OldYanksFan
That was positively Abreu-like
2007-07-08 11:27:16
63.   Zack
Robbie been showing some power lately!
2007-07-08 11:27:23
64.   51cq24
55 if sanchez comes back from the surgery healthy, what does it matter?
2007-07-08 11:27:23
65.   mehmattski
60 Back when the A-Rod to Angels trades were circling, there were a number of people who said they'd prefer Ervin Santana to Jered Weaver. I have no idea why, other than the logic that if he's Jeff's brother, he can't possibly be any good.
2007-07-08 11:27:41
66.   bob34957
I hope we pound the Halos like 12 to zilch
2007-07-08 11:28:25
67.   Shaun P
Cano SLG in July: .519
Matsui SLG in July: .630
(not including today)

It helps that E. Santana cannot win away from the Big A. (Road stats: 1 W, 10 starts (including today), 51.1 IP (so far today), 17 HR allowed (including the two today), ).

Where are the people who wanted to trade A-Rod for this guy now?

2007-07-08 11:30:03
68.   matt nokes forever
59 I've got no problem with Cash... at all. And with Randy on the DL again, if we had gotten a bottle of Windex for him from Arizona, I'ld still be happy with that deal. I just don't think the Sheff deal was that great, especially with him still able to produce like he can.

But that aside, I will cease and decist with any mention of Sheffield b/c apparently I am waaaaay behind in chiming in on it.

2007-07-08 11:30:18
69.   RIYank
65 Yeah, I think people may have been substituting kinship for actual performance record.
2007-07-08 11:30:49
70.   mehmattski
Resop enters the game and starts telling the one about the fox and the grapes...
2007-07-08 11:31:52
71.   mehmattski
The only possible excuse for that bunt is if Melky really had to pee...
2007-07-08 11:33:57
72.   Jim Dean
58 59 Gee, I wonder why? If the team was winning, there'd be no worry. But both Shef and Unit have out-performed expectations AND the Yanks got NOTHING in return that helps the 2007 team. Change any of those variables, and I know I'd promptly STFU (okay, maybe not.)
2007-07-08 11:34:04
73.   RIYank
Today is 3-run homer day.
2007-07-08 11:34:40
74.   mehmattski
I think it's about even-money now that A-Rod will break the forty-six year-old AL Home Run Record.
2007-07-08 11:34:47
75.   matt nokes forever
HAAAAA!
2007-07-08 11:35:34
76.   Jim Dean
I think Melky decided a meaningless time was a good chance to show he can bunt.

Ha!

And A-Rod with another meaningless homer.

2007-07-08 11:35:35
77.   RIYank
70 Excellent. Noted on your official score pad.
2007-07-08 11:35:40
78.   Shaun P
71 Melky was clearly trying to atone for his mistake yesterday. Or you're right, and he drank too much milk before coming to the plate.

73 Gameday is slow for me, so I wondered why you said that when Jeter grounded out.

HA!!!!!!!!

2007-07-08 11:36:07
79.   matt nokes forever
66 You may get your wish, bob!
2007-07-08 11:36:46
80.   mehmattski
72 Yes, I hear that Randy has a Sitting In Hot Tub+ (SIHT+) of 120 this year. He would be a valuable addition to Gene Monahan's training room every day.
2007-07-08 11:36:51
81.   bob34957
68I'm with holding Sheffield trade judgement until the minor league players have been in our system for +2 years.
2007-07-08 11:37:36
82.   mehmattski
77 Woot.
2007-07-08 11:38:28
83.   iicollies
Who's hurt?
2007-07-08 11:39:00
84.   mehmattski
83 Resop. One too many fables.
2007-07-08 11:39:05
85.   bob34957
79 I hope it is a shut out. I don't know about other Yank fans feelings but I've been building up an intense frustration about how we have competed against this team for about five years. Every time we play them I wanna go knuts!!

Pour it on!!!!!

2007-07-08 11:39:17
86.   matt nokes forever
83 Resop's pride.
2007-07-08 11:40:24
87.   weeping for brunnhilde
That homer by Alex looked exactly like his last one. Down and in pitch lined to left. Crazy-looking swing to me. Not nearly so elegant as his usual swing. Kind of savage-looking, more like Sheffield.

The mics picked up Alex in the dugout afterwards talking to Phillips. "I was just trying to put the ball in play," I heard him say, and "He can score on anything."

I wish we could have heard more but stupid Kay wouldn't shut up, talked right over him.

2007-07-08 11:41:28
88.   iicollies
85

Bob,
You remember Bobby Knoop?

2007-07-08 11:41:43
89.   Jim Dean
80 For the innings he's pitched, he's been better than every pitcher not named Wang.

Meanwhile, who'd the Yanks get again?

2007-07-08 11:42:26
90.   bob34957
[88} Who is that?
2007-07-08 11:44:22
91.   iicollies
Saw 'knuts' comment

Knoop was an all-star for Angels in the 60's

2007-07-08 11:45:41
92.   bob34957
91knuts = nuts=crazy=me
2007-07-08 11:48:02
93.   ChrisS
wow, this thread looks just like about every other one dating back to the off-season.

Give it a rest, Jim, everyone knows your opinion. Do you have a macro for those posts?

2007-07-08 11:49:28
94.   RIYank
Hey, maybe an inning or even two for Edwar today?
2007-07-08 11:50:30
95.   Jim Dean
93 Who'd the Yanks sign for 1B and the bench?
2007-07-08 11:50:40
96.   mehmattski
94 I thought we decided his name would always be capitalized:

EDWAR!!!!

2007-07-08 11:50:52
97.   matt nokes forever
94 Today definitely feels like an Eddie day.
2007-07-08 11:52:47
98.   rilkefan
89 For the innings he's pitched, Hughes has been better.
2007-07-08 11:53:03
99.   Shaun P
94 C'mon, EDSP has got to pitch, otherwise how will he last until Thursday? Dude might die if he goes 6 days without pitching!
2007-07-08 11:53:45
100.   matt nokes forever
98 In terms of innings pitched, Edwar has been Cy Young on steroids.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-07-08 11:54:05
101.   RIYank
Good, so Wanger should get through the seventh I think, and then No-D can finish. Joe won't leave Wang in to get him a CG shutout, will he?
2007-07-08 11:55:15
102.   matt nokes forever
99 So the rumors that Torre arranged for the Proctologist to throw the entire HR Derby tommorrow night isn't true?
2007-07-08 11:55:44
103.   Jim Dean
99 Yup, EDSP sees action - no doubt.
2007-07-08 11:55:53
104.   Shaun P
89 Must . . . resist . . . responding . . .
2007-07-08 11:56:52
105.   RIYank
Shoot, that's right. Proctor will pitch for sure. Dang.
2007-07-08 11:57:01
106.   Shaun P
102 I was under the impression that EDSP was trying to negotiate his way into the Futures Game tonight. But pitching all of the Derby tomorrow does sound more plausible.
2007-07-08 11:58:04
107.   RIYank
'Bootcheck' is a very good name.
2007-07-08 11:58:50
108.   RIYank
In fact, he might have the best name/pitching ability ratio in MLB.
2007-07-08 12:01:39
109.   mehmattski
108 Hmm... Taylor Tankersley?
2007-07-08 12:01:50
110.   ChrisS
108 in terms of innings pitched?

At any rate, Andy Phillips should eclipse Miggy's season production in about another 4 games.

2007-07-08 12:02:44
111.   matt nokes forever
108 Don't the Twins have a reliever named Slowey that tosses meatballs?
2007-07-08 12:04:30
112.   ChrisS
sigh. first pitch swinging GIDP against a guy on the ropes with control problems, oh how I loathe thee.
2007-07-08 12:12:33
113.   Jim Dean
112 Wow, you loathe a 22 yo?
2007-07-08 12:12:41
114.   JL25and3
109 I've always been partial to Dennis, if only because he can't even win "Best pitcher ever named Dennis __kersley."
2007-07-08 12:13:29
115.   JL25and3
113 Oh, I've loathed people much younger than that. Haven't you?
2007-07-08 12:16:38
116.   bob34957
112 you loathe the lecheman. Where you get leche now?
2007-07-08 12:19:56
117.   Jim Dean
115 Not in the sports watching domain, where all I can do is judge their performance. Melky, being 22, has room for improvement. But he's got a nice solid foundation.

A lot of folks seemed to loathe Cano in 2005. I thought that was weird too.

2007-07-08 12:22:58
118.   matt nokes forever
116 I make Wil fetch it for me, so he can serve a purpose.
2007-07-08 12:24:00
119.   RIYank
111 Reliever? He started against us. But yeah, he has a good ratio, good point.
2007-07-08 12:28:01
120.   matt nokes forever
111 You are correct, he's a starter... but he of the 5.84 era was demoted to AAA immediately after he pitched against us according to the Twinkies web site.
2007-07-08 12:29:20
121.   matt nokes forever
Oops... meant 119, i talk to myself too much already. Don't need to start doing it in a forum.
2007-07-08 12:30:36
122.   ChrisS
no, I do not loathe the Melk Man, I think he's stolen the CF job from Damon for now and forever.

I loathe the first pitch swinging GIDP. Take a pitch fer crissakes.

He'll learn.

2007-07-08 12:36:21
123.   RIYank
120 Ah, I'm only counting ML pitchers, so he's out, then.
2007-07-08 12:42:34
124.   weeping for brunnhilde
112 First of all, I agree with Jim. Melky's a kid and deserves our patience.

Second of all, the result was fine, imo, because Melky hit the ball pretty hard, which is all we can ask of these guys.

If he'd swung at the first pitch and hit a weak-ass tapper somewhere, I'd share your frustration.

Sometimes you make outs.

Derek yesterday, for instance, was smart to attack that first pitch from Rodriguez. He hit it pretty hard, but it failed to make its way through the infield. He hit the ball about as hard as you'd expect against a pitcher like Rodriguez.

2007-07-08 12:44:17
125.   matt nokes forever
120 Still love the name Jimmy Gobble, though.
2007-07-08 12:45:09
126.   bob34957
Don't look now but Andy Phillips is batting .316
2007-07-08 12:45:53
127.   weeping for brunnhilde
There goes Miggy, stat-padding again.
2007-07-08 12:46:05
128.   RIYank
Cairo's padding his RBI stats.
2007-07-08 12:46:44
129.   matt nokes forever
110 Now Phillips is gonna need five games to surpass Cairo's production.
2007-07-08 12:47:27
130.   RIYank
127 128 Jinx.
See, A-Rod shows how it's done. Make it clear that you could hit it out, if you wanted to, but don't show up the opposition.
2007-07-08 12:48:31
131.   weeping for brunnhilde
130 Ha haa ha ha!
2007-07-08 12:49:31
132.   Jim Dean
And it's EDSP!
2007-07-08 12:53:34
133.   Zack
Isn't this type of game MADE for Villone? I mean, I guess with three days off looming, EDSP needs to ensure he stays on track...
2007-07-08 12:57:43
134.   bob34957
132Who is EDSP? or is it an acronym?
2007-07-08 12:58:49
135.   matt nokes forever
Torre's worried Scott won't get enough work throwing all of the HR Derby tomorrow... he was unable to get him into the Future's Game tonight according to Shaun 106.
2007-07-08 12:58:53
136.   joejoejoe
134 Every Day Scott Proctor.
2007-07-08 12:59:01
137.   Zack
Every Day Scott Proctor. That ones at least going on two seasons now, no?
2007-07-08 12:59:13
138.   matt nokes forever
134 Every Day Scott Proctor.
2007-07-08 13:00:31
139.   bob34957
I've been on here for less than a month. Thanks for catching me up to speed
2007-07-08 13:01:14
140.   Shaun P
134 Well, so far your wish has come true. Let's hope the bullpen holds the shutout!
2007-07-08 13:02:08
141.   Shaun P
140 should have referenced 66 BTW

BTW bob, to link a comment, just put the number between square brackets: [X] where X is the number of the comment you want to link to - it took me forever to figure that out.

2007-07-08 13:04:15
142.   RIYank
The Tigers gave back almost all of their big lead. Lopez just walked a Tigger but the The Mask threw him out stealing. They're in the bottom of the eighth, 6-5 Detroit.
2007-07-08 13:05:17
143.   RIYank
Wow, yeah, good call in 66, bob34957.
2007-07-08 13:05:35
144.   Zack
139 Oh I didn't mean it as a "how could you not know that" type of comment, and more as a reflection of Torre's love of pitching him, as well as the full acceptance of the moniker...
2007-07-08 13:06:56
145.   RIYank
{sniff} No No-D today.
2007-07-08 13:07:50
146.   Zack
Seems like Torre is going with the "use Edwar rarely so that when he pitches, hes rusty and then I can justify using him rarely' approach...
2007-07-08 13:09:59
147.   RIYank
Maybe. He declared very definitely that he likes Edwar and likes his presence on the mound (or some such Torreism). Good K for Villone.

Well, pretty good couple of series, despite the infuriating loss yesterday.

The Tigers go to the ninth. They've made 5 errors, allowing Boston to score five runs on just five hits.

2007-07-08 13:11:27
148.   Zack
147 Sounds familiar, 5 errors that is...

Todd terrible Jones in and promptly gives up a single to face Ortiz...

2007-07-08 13:13:04
149.   bob34957
144I'm just a rook, amongst this great breathren of Yankee followers
2007-07-08 13:15:10
150.   RIYank
148 Ortiz Ks and Manny flies out, it's up to Tek with one on and two out...
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-07-08 13:16:06
151.   matt nokes forever
148 Are we at that stage still where we're rooting for the Tigers to win b/c we want to close the gap in the division by a game or are we rooting for the Saux (it hurts to even type it) to win b/c we want to close the gap in the wild card? Somebody let me know, cause I sure as hell don't.
2007-07-08 13:16:30
152.   RIYank
Maskman singles. Runners on first and third, two out for Drew.
2007-07-08 13:17:21
153.   RIYank
151 I was trying not to think about that.
I always enjoy it when the Sox lose.

And they do, as Drew pops out.

2007-07-08 13:18:22
154.   Zack
151 I can never root for the Sox to win (and they just lost with their prize boy JD Drew making the last out with 1st and 3rd, awesome)

Its much easier for those three games to just root for the Tigers

2007-07-08 13:18:31
155.   matt nokes forever
Tek singles... first n third two outs
2007-07-08 13:19:13
156.   RIYank
155 I was listening on the radio, way ahead of you.
2007-07-08 13:20:19
157.   matt nokes forever
Thank god for JD...

153, 154 so the general concensus is to root for the Tiggers now and then hope their season implodes upon itself after the break?

2007-07-08 13:21:45
158.   Jim Dean
157 Thanks. I'm glad to add my two cents around here when I can. I'm happy to know it's appreciated.
2007-07-08 13:22:35
159.   RIYank
157 I dunno. I mean, the Tigers could win their division and then they aren't competitors, for instance. But I think both of us were saying we just can't root for the Sox.
2007-07-08 13:23:27
160.   matt nokes forever
158 De nada.
2007-07-08 13:24:24
161.   bob34957
Dice K gave up 6 ER.
2007-07-08 13:25:43
162.   matt nokes forever
159 That wasn't sarcasm... I'm completely torn. I do however like the thought of the Tiggers, Indians and Twinkies beating up on each other in the 2nd half so we can gain some extra ground in the WC...

BTW... the Future's Game is on ESPN 2 right now... Joba Chamberlain is pitching for the US teamd... he's our ONLY representative... We've really only got one kid in this entire friggin all star game? wow!

2007-07-08 13:27:54
163.   bob34957
162 i am @ work , keep me informed on Joba's progress?
2007-07-08 13:31:41
164.   JL25and3
151 I find it impossible to root for "the wild card race." First off, I don't believe that there is such a thing as "the wild card race" until August at the earliest, really September. Second, it might hold some interest if I were a fan of an up-and-coming team; maybe even if the Yankees put on a really strong showing in the second half, looking like a championship-caliber team. But I'm not much interested in seeing them play about like this, pulling themselves out of the tar pits just enough to be the best of the worst. Somehow, it's tough to get excited about that.
2007-07-08 13:32:25
165.   matt nokes forever
163 Some scrub Nieman from the Devil Rays organization started the game and already gave up two runs to the World team... if Joba comes in before I leave for work, I'll give you details... but if you can, mlb.com has a gameday link that tracks the game...
2007-07-08 13:33:24
166.   Zack
Did Joba already pitch?
2007-07-08 13:34:41
167.   bob34957
thanks , goin to gameday
2007-07-08 13:35:09
168.   Zack
NEvermind. I am taping it in the hopes of catching him later
2007-07-08 13:35:34
169.   matt nokes forever
151 Touche... rooting for the WC race is def not on my list of things to do, but the miserable Cards proved last year that no matter how shitty your team is or how shitty a season your team is having... if you stay close and slip into the playoffs, you can get hot at just the right time... Trust me, I would much rather steam-roll every team left on our schedule and plow into the playoffs, but realistically that isn't going to happen... So call me an optimistic realist i guess...
2007-07-08 13:37:04
170.   matt nokes forever
168 It's only the second inning and one of Cleveland's kids is pitching (Lofgren)... hopefully Joba soon...
2007-07-08 13:40:24
171.   bob34957
futures game is on mlb.tv , free, freeeee!
2007-07-08 13:41:48
172.   matt nokes forever
171 Sweet! Catch you lata, bob... Good to have you here.
2007-07-08 13:50:29
173.   bob34957
joba is on mlb.tv right now!!!!!!
2007-07-08 13:50:44
174.   RIYank
Heeeere's Joba!
2007-07-08 13:51:02
175.   JL25and3
169 the miserable Cards proved last year that no matter how shitty your team is or how shitty a season your team is having... if you stay close and slip into the playoffs, you can get hot at just the right time

Actually, that's exactly what I don't want. Last year's Cards were a mediocre team, but I suspect that winning the WS made them think they were better than that. They're paying the price for that now.

I want the Yankees to have the incentive to rebuild/retool as aggressively as possible. If they sneak in and have a moderate hot streak at the right time, that won't happen. I mean...just think of all the grit and heart and clutchitudeness and Warriortude that would require - how could you break up a team like that, or change the manager or GM?

2007-07-08 13:56:32
176.   mehmattski
Can we trade for Brian Anderson (the catcher) now?
2007-07-08 13:57:53
177.   mehmattski
Well, that wasn't a very impressive inning, though the curveball that Votto swung through on the pitch before the caught stealing was nice.
2007-07-08 13:58:13
178.   RIYank
Not Joba's greatest, but it was fun watching him.
2007-07-08 13:58:56
179.   RIYank
176 Yeah, I was thinking that. I assume he can hit, too, or he wouldn't be at this game?
2007-07-08 13:59:31
180.   bob34957
175 I guess my view is in the minority. I believe this team can put some micro runs in and surprise and sneak in as a WC. We have elders, Clemens, Mussina, Pettite, and Youngster Wang and Hughes. Our bullpen needs rest,and with one or two minor leaguers to help out. My sole concern is the bench, or what bench!
2007-07-08 14:00:46
181.   rabid stan
178 Consistently 96-98. I chalk up the walk to jitters, and the bird.
2007-07-08 14:03:56
182.   RIYank
Upton > Elsbury.

And I just heard that Buerhle signed up for a long term deal with the ChiSox.

2007-07-08 14:05:16
183.   mehmattski
179 He hit .302/.377/.417 with 3 HR at low-A ball last year. At AA Springfield this year, he's hitting .317/.373/.432 with five homers.

Justin Upton though, kid can hit.

2007-07-08 14:05:17
184.   JL25and3
180 Actually, I'm probably in the minority. I think most fans would rather have the Yankees get in the postseason any way possible. I think it would be nice to win this year, but it's more important to have a good team to watch next year and down the road.
2007-07-08 14:08:48
185.   mehmattski
Half a season of production from JJ Hardy, after a power-less minor league career, is enough to call him an "Elite" power hitter?

Steve Phillips alone is enough to make me turn this game off.

2007-07-08 14:19:54
186.   bob34957
184 yeah, I want to sneak in with low expectations. Plus, I don't want any of our young arms to go any time soon.
2007-07-08 14:22:36
187.   rabid stan
185 Is it really his fault? That struck me as something the producer is responsible for.
2007-07-08 14:27:10
188.   bob34957
185 I did , you too. silence was never so great. He is such a jackass. Talking about like he is still a gm.
2007-07-08 14:53:09
189.   yankz
Apparently, Pete Abe wants to do a questionnaire with Cashman. I can hear Jim Dean typing right now.
2007-07-08 17:51:41
190.   Mattpat11
189

KEI IGAWA??????

2007-07-08 18:06:11
191.   weeping for brunnhilde
184 I agree wholeheartedly.

We've been hanging on for five or six years now with duct tape and mercenaries.

I was excited about Nick Johnson and Sori forming the youth nucleus of the team of the future, much like what the Mets have managed with the left side of their infield.

Hopefully the new tandem can be Melky and Robbie.

In any event, I'd love to see the team be built on a lasting and inspired foundation going into the future. I can live without the playoffs if it means a bright new future.

2007-07-08 18:18:18
192.   OldYanksFan
58 59 93 If you guys are ever in NH, dinner's on me.
2007-07-08 18:45:47
193.   yankz
Finally did what I thought about doing a while ago- dug through some archives.

Jim Dean the day after the Sheffield trade:

"I like Cash more and more these days."

Answering his own question on who to sign as the 1B:

"At #4, I got nothing from the free agent list - maybe Hillenbrand or Mientkiewicz?"

Later, after someone questioned the Sheff deal:

"Where was he going to play? 1B? He said he wanted an extension to do so. The Yanks had no choice to trade him after acquiring Abreu (who pushed them to the playoffs).

Nah, that's one move I can't second guess - though the return in the trade..."

Today: "So Brian Cashman, you thought Doug Mghdsxfkj would be a capable 1B even as he was barely a starter for the Kansas City Royals last year?"

Maybe he was taking your advice?

Today's 39 pretty clearly contradicts the "I can't second guess" thing.

I'm surprised that some around here haven't learned that some people will argue no matter what, even if it means backtracking on previous positions.

Cue Jim Dean typing away trying to defend all this. I'm not going to argue back.

2007-07-08 19:16:42
194.   OldYanksFan
193 You're also invited to dinner.
2007-07-08 19:30:45
195.   yankz
194 Why thank you!
2007-07-08 19:58:50
196.   BklynBmr
Is there anything in sports "journalism" more replusive than "Who's more 'now'?"
2007-07-08 20:28:46
197.   Shaun P
196 No. I won't watch ESPN anymore, just ESPNNEWS.

192 I could be in NH tomorrow night (I live in MA), but the wife might not appreciate me doing that. =) But maybe someday . . . Thanks, OYF.

2007-07-08 20:48:07
198.   Mattpat11
197 ESPNEWS used to ba a nice refuge from the screaming and yelling and constant bad jokes of Sportscenter. About a year and a half ago, they added this new anchor)who started screaming and yelling and telling really bad jokes. And the rest followed the trend. The pendulum, IMO, swung back and Sportscenter with Boo yah and Say Hello to my little friend is now the lesser of all evils.
2007-07-08 21:19:33
199.   tommyl
196 I dunno, watching Keyshawn and the rest make idiots out of themselves because they've never heard of Ronaldinho is pretty damn funny. Also, saying that Beckham is just like him is hilarious. That's like saying some media darling is comparable to one of the greatest players of all time...oh wait...

Also, I just loved Kruk's analysis that Vlad is the AL MVP at the break, because his team is better and he has "less protection" in the lineup than A-Rod. Lets just ignore the number of games the Yankees would have lost if say A-Rod stopped hitting walk off HRs. Or the 185 to 169 OPS+ difference.

2007-07-08 21:48:35
200.   Mattpat11
199

The huge sticking point is how you define "valuable."

If it was a Most Outstanding Player or Willie Mays Best Hitter award, it would be a lot easier for me to give it to Alex.

But if I'm going to sit here last year and scream that the fat ass in Boston can't be an MVP because his team sucks in spite of him, I'd have to be a huge hypocrite to give it to Alex at this juncture.

The Yankees would have had a lost season without Alex, and they're probably going to have a lost season in spite of him. If Magglio Ordonez is going to be the difference between the Tigers sitting at home and making the playoffs, I think that's far more valuable than someone being the difference between their team finishing 3rd and 5th.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-07-08 21:54:20
201.   tommyl
200 Considering the Yankees offense for the first half of the year has basically been A-Rod and that the team would not even have a shot at a .500 record, much less a playoff birth without him I don't see how you can define him as not valuable. Alex is having one of the best seasons in history so far.
2007-07-08 22:18:50
202.   Mattpat11
I think he's a fantastic player that's playing on an awful team. I think the team has negated his value. If the Yankees are going to suck, I really don't give a carp how bad they are. I'd rather the draft pick.

I just in no way find the best player on a bad team more valuable than the best player on contender.

2007-07-08 22:34:21
203.   Zack
The Times further shows their love of the Sox by writing up on the SOX prospects and THEIR Native American prospect before they did anything on the Yanks. Figures. They can have their CF who hits for ZERO power, and one pitching prospect. I'll take Tabata and Action Jackson and all our arms :)
2007-07-08 22:36:31
204.   monkeypants
Caution: Small Sample Optimism to Follow.

Has anyone else noticed that after a slow start (adjustment?) that Andy Phillips is sorta hitting pretty well? IS h the .850 OPS guy that we have seen so far? Probably not. But hopefully he plugged that spot for the rest of this (probably) lost season.

202 How contending does a team have to be before the value of the individual player can "count" in an MVP discussion?

2007-07-08 22:42:15
205.   monkeypants
91 "I was excited about Nick Johnson and Sori forming the youth nucleus of the team of the future..."

So was I, until we all learned that Sorian was actually a few years older than we thought, and that Nick the Stick would be perpetually hurt.

2007-07-08 23:16:28
206.   weeping for brunnhilde
205 Wow, I actually have no recollection of Sori's age thing. Or maybe vaguely.

My concern with him was whether he'd ever lay off that slider in the dirt. I don't see him play enough to know whether he has or not.

And as to Nick, I was mildly concerned about his injury-proneness, but didn't think it was a reason not to keep him around.

In retrospect, the guy we got for him was run out of town after one season and we're still without a replacement for Tino, six years later.

I liked the idea of Nick being the successor to Mattingly and Tino.

2007-07-09 05:26:14
207.   3rd gen yankee fan
Mark Buerhle is staying with the White Sox, yaaaaaaaaaaay
2007-07-09 06:20:07
208.   ChrisS
192 Thanks!

205 I think the Yanks have a great bunch of kids at the ML level or coming up soon. I forsee a rotation with Wang, Hughes, Kennedy, Joba, Clippard, or Sanchez, maybe some outside help in the event injuries or a trade. Robbie and Melky have a lot of years ahead for them. EDWAR could possibly the closer of the future (though he's a bit old to play Mo's understudy for another 3-4 years).

With position players, I don't think the Yankees are really the type of organization that trades pitching prospects for hitting prospects, they'd rather have they guy that's proven he can hit MLB pitching. Eh, We'll see.

This season has been painful, but to see Melky hitting his stride and seizing the CF job from Damon and watching Cano round into what is apparently his second-half surge is fun to watch. Add in EDWAR and that sick change-up and I don't cringe as much when a starting pitcher has to make way for bullpen help.

2007-07-09 06:46:15
209.   Shaun P
Does anyone know where I can find the box score from the Futures' game? I've looked all over, but all I can find is the recap. I know what Joba did, but I'd like to see what some of the other big names did, too.
2007-07-09 06:58:36
210.   Shaun P
206 Nick the Stick was a double-edged sword even worse than Soriano. Sori could (in theory) be taught to lay off that slider in the dirt. But health is a skill, not something teachable, and for whatever reason, Nick doesn't have it.

When he's healthy, he's really good, but that's a huge when. Since he was traded, out of a possible 590 games, Nick has played in 349 (very close to 60%). I know the latest injury is something of a fluke (he collided with the RF chasing a pop up, IIRC), but it doesn't change the results.

2007-07-09 07:38:42
211.   Shaun P
Where's Chyll with a good "crickets" when I need one?

I saw this at RLYW, and thought I'd share:

http://tinyurl.com/2e5rxa

2007-07-09 07:45:08
212.   Jim Dean
Nice report card from Allard:

http://www.wcbs880.com/pages/660521.php?contentType=4&contentId=673542

My only real gripe:

Farnsworth has been marginally better than Vizcaino. And Britton (in a much too small sample) has been better than both of them.

2007-07-09 07:51:45
213.   weeping for brunnhilde
210 Definitely, Shaun, I understand. But still, given the fact that we've not found a first baseman to replace Tino in all these years, we might as well have thrown Nick into the mix and taken whatever we could get out of him, presumably for cheap money.

But what's done is done.

I loved how Sori and Nick were polar opposites. Sori never saw a pitch he didn't like whereas Nick would often watch these big fat meatballs go right by. The one too aggressive, the other not aggressive enough.

It was interesting to watch.

2007-07-09 08:00:09
214.   monkeypants
213 I'm not sure what you mean about not finding a 1B to replace Tino in "all these years." He was pretty bad in 1999 and 2001, and shit awful in 2000--he was very good in 1997 and 1998, and not so good in 1996.

Meanwhile, Giambi was excellent in 2002, 2003, 2005, and 2006. He was hurt and/or really bad in 20004 and 2007. In his first five years with the Yankees he played 1B more than DH (though increasingly he split time between the two positions).

The team did find a more than adequate replacement for Tino, at least for the first three or for years of Giambi's contract.

2007-07-09 08:00:40
215.   OldYanksFan
197 Do you ever go down to the Bronx for a game?
2007-07-09 08:29:20
216.   weeping for brunnhilde
214 You have a point, of course. I guess I just never thought of Giambi as a firstbaseman, but more of an ad hoc solution. You never had to worry about the defense of Mattingly or Tino. Johnson was a suitable replacement to that legacy in my eyes, rather than a guy who happened to play 1B.

But you're right, I'm being pretty subjective and probably overstating the case.

2007-07-09 08:30:52
217.   JL25and3
200 I've always thought the whole "valuable" argument is overblown. It's entirely an argument about intangibles, which means it really can't be argued at all. Basically, the criteria have to do with the team's circumstances rather than the player's performance.

By this argument, Ortiz shouldn't be a candidate. Assuming the season continues more or less as it has been so far, the Sox are likely to win the division by 15 games or so. Replace Ortiz with an ordinary DH and what happens - they win the division by 8 or 10 games instead?

So let's see: the MVP has to be on a team that wins, but only by a little bit. The team also can't have too many good players on it, because otherwise the "value" is more diluted. And the winning has to be done by overachieving - if the Red Sox collapse but still win the division by 2 games, it's a lot less likely that they'll have an MVP.

What you end up with is Justin Morneau: an HR/RBI guy having a breakout season on a decent team that overachieves enough to win. Isn't that setting the sights a little narrow?

And isn't it possible that the choice of "Most Valuable" rather than "Best" was more a marketing decision than anything else? It just sounds better than way, and maybe that's the whole reason. After all, we never argue that "fame" should be the primary criterion for the Hall of Fame.

2007-07-09 08:45:48
218.   williamnyy23
I agree. I am not sure why so many people think of valuable as a relative term, when it really is absolute. For example, a solid gold bar would be a very valuable commodity regardless of whether it was in the possession of a homeless man or a tycoon. Similarly, a player such as Arod would be an exceedingly valuable commodity on any team...good or bad. The only time I would take record into consideration would be to break razor thin cases. Only if all else was equal, would I give a player pennant race bonus points.
2007-07-09 08:57:02
219.   Shaun P
217 That's an impressive argument, JL. Very convincing. I've never seen anyone break it down quite that way. It does make the 'traditional' MVP criteria seem pretty silly.

Bill James, in his Baseball Book 1992, essentially frames an argument supporting Cal Ripken Jr as MVP around the concept of replacement level. It goes: Cal was (by James's calculations) significantly above a replacement level SS (85 runs, IIRC), compared to Cecil Fielder, who wasn't that far above a replacement level 1B (25 runs, I think?). I bought that argument then, and I still buy it today. Note too that the O's finished 6th in the East in '91, while the Tigers finished in a tie for 2nd, 7 back of Toronto.

215 I'd love to, but I never have. I do want to go, if not sometime in what's left of this year*, then certainly next year. I haven't been to the Stadium in years, and I want to go again before its gone.

(*I figure if the Yanks are out of the playoff chase come September 1, good tickets will be available very cheap, making that a prime time for a visit. Also my 3-week-old son won't be quite so "newborn", meaning the wife probably won't mind me going to the City for a day, especially if I get tickets for my dad as well. We haven't been to a major league game together in almost ten years.)

2007-07-09 08:57:38
220.   OldYanksFan
Bonds takes a lot of shit because of the 'steroid issue' but his greatness has much more to do with his batting eye and discipline then his muscles.

The guy does NOT get fooled on pitches. He does not chase outside sliders or curves in the dirt. Like Giambi (but better), he is selective and waits for pitches he can handle. If our guys had 50% of that batting eye/discipline, they would be fantastically more productive.

The hell with swing and mechanics. If I were the batting coach for the Yankees, I would have a huge program to help/train players to recognize pitches. This one factor would have immeasurable impact on our offense.

OBP - BA
Cano: +27
Cairo: +47
Damon: +64
Melky: +70
Jeter: +71
Matsui: +76
ARod: +81
Posada: +103
Abreu: +109
Giambi: +122

I don't know what 'league average' is for this (feedback requested), but a gut-guess says +60 is good, +90 is outstanding, and +120 leads the league (after Bonds retires).

As a team, these career numbers are excellent. Actually, Melky is better here then I thought. Cano, for all his talent, will be a terrible underachiever if he doesn't change his ways.

Ichiro, with a carrer .333 BA, is at +46.
Bonds, with a carrer .299 BA, is at +146.
Giambi, with a carrer .291 BA, is at +122.
Helton, with a carrer .332 BA, is at +99.

Right now, Bonds is at: +217 (insane!)

2007-07-09 09:00:57
221.   tommyl
217 Well said, thanks.
2007-07-09 09:06:00
222.   tommyl
220 I'm not sure that's independent of steroids though. If the extra muscles give him an increased bat speed, he can afford to wait a fraction of a second longer before deciding to swing or not. As players get older one of the first things with hitting to drop off is bat speed.

There was an interesting point made by Paul O'Neill a few days ago. Matsui was still opening up and pulling off the ball and Kay asked him, why, as a ML hitter Matsui couldn't just stop himself from doing that. O'Neill replied that it was something else going wrong in his swing, so he was trying to speed his bat up artificially which led to his pulling off the ball. When he didn't do it, he was way behind a pitch or two later.

I guess its a bit like golf. Everytime I slice the ball, its obvious that my arms and hips aren't in synch and I tell myself to swing smoother the next time. Its not that easy though.

2007-07-09 09:12:54
223.   OldYanksFan
219 Let me know. I'll drive.
217 Absolutely.
218 "..when it really is absolute". Perfect
219 I think VORP should probably be a major factor. If I got to design the rule, here it is
85% absolutes
... 60% of that: VORP (it's adjusted, yes?)
... 25% of that: WinShares (it's adjusted, yes?. This is what we consider valuable, yes? Winning? Helping your team win? And this also considers defense)
... 15% of that: SBs and other stats that might be missed/understated by the other 2. (Do they account for ZR, SBs, throwing arm?)
15% Intangibles
... attitude and work ethic
... team value in clubhouse
... winning/PS team?
... (other)
2007-07-09 09:14:43
224.   tommyl
223 How about that David Ekstein is just so darn cute?
2007-07-09 09:37:23
225.   JL25and3
219That's a great way of looking at it, though I prefer to do it more conceptually rather than relying on VORP (as in 223). But that makes it much easier to see why Alex Rodriguez really did deserve that 2005 MVP.
2007-07-09 09:38:12
226.   JL25and3
224 Cute as a little button, provided that the button has a belly just chock full of guts.
2007-07-09 09:44:48
227.   williamnyy23
Of course, ESPN.com showed no consistency by awarding the 1st half AL MVP to Maglio Ordonez and the 1st half NL MVP to Matt Holliday.
2007-07-09 10:23:28
228.   tommyl
Has anyone been following the open leter to the M's pitching coach about King Felix? Wow, it actually got to him and he changed his style. I can just see Jim Dean writing open letters about BUCs ;)
2007-07-09 10:46:57
229.   JL25and3
228 Link?
2007-07-09 10:52:11
230.   weeping for brunnhilde
220 Hey OYF, I'm so happy you brought this up. I couldn't agree more.

I got to watch Bonds play fairly regularly back in 2002 because I had a couple of friends who were big Giants fans.

What amazed me about Bonds was exactly what you say. Sure, he hit the ball a mile, but his plate discipline, his eye, and the fact that he never, ever missed that one pitch he'd get to hit in a game were nothing short of miraculous.

Just watching him get in the box and knowing he wasn't going to get himself out was really like nothing I'd ever seen.

2007-07-09 10:54:35
231.   weeping for brunnhilde
222 Very good point, tommy, thanks.
2007-07-09 11:20:53
232.   tommyl
229 Ah, sorry, I lost it! googling around should suffice though.
2007-07-09 11:30:07
233.   tommyl
231 Thank you for the compliment. I tend to get annoyed when Giambi or Bonds or someone else says that the steroids didn't really help them because its so hard to hit a baseball, etc. I've never questioned that steriods aren't a ticket to the majors, lord knows you could pump me full of every steroid in the book and I'd still suck. The question is can it take a world-class or nearly world-class athlete and make them into an all time great or a world-class one. I think that baseball has shown that it most certainly can.

I'll use another golf analogy. I don't think myself on steroids could outdrive or outplay Tiger Woods, but Phil Mickelson on the other hand, I'd bet it'd help him.

2007-07-09 11:45:05
234.   OldYanksFan
Is Bonds still on the Juice?
He's having a pretty goo year at 44.
God... I hate these 3 days.
2007-07-09 12:01:30
235.   tommyl
234 Do you know what the long term effects of steroids are on performance? The second you stop do you instantly become weaker? (besides who knows if he's really stopped, or just found the next thing they can't test for). The evidence, either reported or circumstantial is pretty damning for him. We also know Giambi has remained a huge power threat after he stopped using, so who knows.
2007-07-09 12:13:33
236.   JL25and3
234 I'm with you. I hate the All-Star break. Right in the middle of the season, three days without baseball - real baseball, anyway.
2007-07-09 12:33:57
237.   OldYanksFan
Time to fire Cashman:
"Every team knows the importance of pitching. But under General Manager Brian Cashman, the Yankees' strategy of taking risks on amateur pitchers and exceeding industry standards for bonuses seems to be working. It suggests that the Yankees may not be down for long, and other teams have noticed.

'He recognized a few years ago the need to fortify his system and has taken advantage of every opportunity possible to infuse talent into it,' Cleveland Indians General Manager Mark Shapiro said.

"The system is now one of the stronger ones in the minor leagues, and at some point, as those players become major-league-ready, the Yankees will have the most deadly combination of depth of young talent combined with elite payroll resources at the major league level."

When Cashman assumed greater authority over baseball operations in 2005, he wanted clearly defined roles for others in the department. With Damon Oppenheimer running the draft and Mark Newman overseeing the farm system, the Yankees have steadily raised their profile in the minors.

In 2004, Baseball America ranked the Yankees 27th in minor league talent. Before this season, they ranked 7th. While the system is thin in position players, Cashman is closely guarding his pitching depth as the trading deadline nears."

The guy is absolutely worthless.

2007-07-09 12:37:05
238.   OldYanksFan
From River Ave. Blues:
Juan Miranda: 1 for 3, 1 R, 1 HR, 5 RBI, 1 K.
13 for his last 31 (.419) with 5 doubles, 1 triple, 2 homers and 10 RBI…say hello to next year's first baseman!
2007-07-09 12:40:21
239.   tommyl
238 Um, a career MILB OPS of .847, not quite sure he's the next Don Mattingly. I'd hold off on the excitement a bit after 31 ABs.
2007-07-09 12:52:27
240.   JL25and3
239 He wasn't exactly overwhelming in high A ball before moving up to Trenton: .264/.348/.464, at age 24.
2007-07-09 13:19:42
241.   OldYanksFan
More cut and paste thievery from NYYFans:

YANKEES - RCAA
Alex Rodriguez 42
Derek Jeter 14
Jorge Posada 14
Jason Giambi 5
Hideki Matsui 3
Chris Basak 0
Kevin Thompson 0
Andy Phillips -1
Johnny Damon -3
Josh Phelps -5
Miguel Cairo -6
Melky Cabrera -7
Doug Mientkiewicz -8
Wil Nieves -8
Bobby Abreu -9
Robinson Cano -10

(Giambi is #4. Is that a hoot?)

We could have over 1000 posts on what is wrong with this team.. but I propose the following.

1) Take the bottom 2 on that list.
2) Be conservative and reverse the -19
3) Thats 38 more runs. How many more wins would we have. 4? 6? 8?

I say we would be 4 games behind the Sox.
I don't know why they don't DL Damon. How much worst could KT be? With 2 weeks of absolute rest, he might actually help this team in the 2nd half.

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