Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
2007-06-27 12:11
by Cliff Corcoran

The Yankees are such a giving ballclub. The Giants had lost seven in a row entering last weekend's series with the Yankees. "Don't be glum, chums," said the benevolent Yanks, "have two of three from us, please." The Giants gladly accepted.

The Orioles had won three of five prior to last night, but had been in a freefall before that, going 2-14 with their big, mean owner firing their poor, defenseless manager. "Do not dispair, friends," said the compassionate Yankees, "if you're not ahead come your final at bat, we'll find a way to get you a walkoff win that will lift your spirits." The Orioles soon found that the Yankees were men of their word.

Tonight the Yankees look to continue their philanthropic tour of the gloomy gusses of baseball. Roger Clemens will make his fourth start of the season coming off an inefficient dud of an outing in Colorado (4 1/3 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 2 HR, 90 pitches) and a dispiriting relief outing in San Francisco (allowing an seventh-inning insurance run in what had been a 3-1 game).

There's reason for hope, however. Clemens has thus far posted a career-best strikeout rate (11.21 K/9) and near-best K/BB ratio (4.40), but has been undone by a staggering .370 opponents' batting average on balls in play. His distribution of singles and extra base hits has actually been very good (15 of his 20 hits allowed have been singles, that's 75 percent compared to roughly 72 percent for both Andy Pettitte and Chien-Ming Wang, the team's two best starters, who also happen to be groundballers). That means Clemens is not getting hit hard, he's just been unlucky. His luck should even out as his performance is buoyed further by the fact that he's still rounding into midseason form. The only real concern is that Roger has been remarkably inefficient, throwing a career-high 4.19 pitches per plate appearance, which means he's pitching like a man facing an endless string of Jason Giambis and Bobby Abreus, just without all those pesky walks. Something has to give here somewhere.

Complicating matters is Clemens' opponent tonight, 28-year-old lefty Erik Bedard. Bedard, the Oriole ace, hasn't allowed more than three runs in a game since April, has failed to go six full innings just once since April 23, and hasn't been knocked out before the fifth yet this year. In May and June combined, Bedard has a 2.32 ERA and has struck out 79 in 66 innings and has struck out seven or more men in eight of his last ten games. That strikeout rate, which he's extended over the full season, marks a significant improvement in Bedard's game. He's always been a solid strikeout pitcher, K-ing about 7.9 men per nine innings in each of the last three seasons, but his rate is a staggering 10.89 K/9 this year, while his walk rate continues to decrease. More bad news: Bedard beat the Yanks in April, holding them to three runs on five hits and no walks over seven innings. Last year he posted a 2.25 ERA against the Bombers, striking out 14 of them in 12 innings while allowing just nine hits. None of this is encouraging for a team that has scored three or fewer runs in five of it's last seven games.

Comments (204)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-06-27 15:23:26
1.   Zack
If it weren't for Bedard being on my fantasy team, I would say tonight looks to be a total loss...again...

Cliff, your lead sure is a downer, and yet, pretty much taps right into the mood du jour

2007-06-27 15:42:47
2.   cult of basebaal

Damon DH
Jeter SS
Matsui LF
Rodriguez 3B
Posada C
Abreu RF
Cabrera CF
Cano 2B
Cairo 1B

2007-06-27 15:47:50
3.   cult of basebaal
jesus, i'm starting to feel like Cato ... like every post is going to have to end with the declaration, "CAIRO MUST BE DESTROYED!!!"

anyway, a new, ongoing service, daily updates on our favorite little firstbase gnome

Lil Miggy has come to the plate 43 times with runners on, with a total of 63 runners on base. 29 of those runners were on 1st, 23 on 2nd and 11 on 3rd.

He's driven in 5 of those runners. 5! 3 from 2nd and 2 from 3rd.

That's 7.9%.

That's currently the worst on the Yankees.

No one else is below 10%.

That's right, Miguel Cairo is worse than Wil Nieves, who's driven in 11.8%.

Josh Phelps was at 14.9%

Of the 172 players in the AL with at least 75 PA, Lil Miggy ranked 165th out of 172 in OBI%, ahead of only Nick Punto, Marco Scutaro, Paul Bako, Luis Rodriguez, Dioner Navarro and Pablo Ozuna.

He's 344 out of 361 amongst all ML'ers with at least 75 PA.

I sure wish I had him on my Hacking Mass team ...


2007-06-27 15:50:07
4.   Zack

Does that make me sound a but too much like Bush and Baghdad? Sorry, had to say it...

2007-06-27 15:51:58
5.   cult of basebaal
4 lil miggy even has a name that fits so well, WOMACK DELENDA EST didn't work nearly as nicely ...
2007-06-27 15:52:32
6.   monkeypants
3 4 That should probably be:

Cairo delendo est.

(Latin is an inflected and gendered language.)

2007-06-27 15:54:22
7.   cult of basebaal
4 i doubt the shrub could tell you who cato was, where or what carthage was, or why you couldn't order a burrito using "latin" ...
2007-06-27 15:55:36
8.   cult of basebaal
6 well, cairo hits like a girl ...
2007-06-27 15:55:42
9.   Zack
6 Thats true, I suppose as is it REALLY sounds like I am a war hawk...
2007-06-27 15:56:59
10.   Zack
8 I would venture a guess there are many girls that would find their hitting skills being compared to Cairo's quite insulting...
2007-06-27 15:59:03
11.   monkeypants
3 I don't know why you're upset. Haven't you learned:

1. Miggy got a couple of hits last night, so he deserves to start today.
2. When he doesn't get a hit, it doesn't matter because we don't expect much from him.
3. It's not his fault; it's really everyone else in lineup for not 'carrying' him like they are supposed to.
4. It's not Torre's fault for starting him, because he has won 11 straight penants.
5. You can't possibly think that Torre has made a mistake, because he has won 11 straight penants.
6. You can't complain about Miggy in the lineup, because that means you are giving everyone else on the team a free pass.

2007-06-27 16:03:49
12.   Zack
11 I'll take issue with #6 there, b/c I take issue with EVERYONE on the lineup, and really, it is their fault in the end. I know this is rehashing the argument from last post or so, but as far as major league managers/coaches, theur role in actually getting performance out of a player is minimal. Joe has screwed up the tactical stuff, and maybe isn't so good at sheidling his players anymore (although you notice that its still a pretty tight ship), but he really has nothing to do with the player hitting performance. I guess blame that on the hitting coach if you must, but among Joe's many faults (for which he deserves to go as wrong manager for wrong team), he simply has no control over the ability of player's to play. Its not football where its all about the right guy in the right position etc and the coach is the "master tactician"...
2007-06-27 16:15:30
13.   Jim Dean
I have to say it's nice listening to Thorn and Palmer on MASN. Beter than anything the Yankees offer.

Anyway - stat of the night: Yanks are 8-16 against the AL EAST.

It will be interesting to see who's head explodes first from lack of run support - Pettitte or Clemens.

2007-06-27 16:16:16
14.   monkeypants
12 I'm just repeating the arguments I read--Miggy is not 'the problem,' everyone else is. So, to complain about Miggy is implicitly to let all the 'real' culprits off the hook. I'm a true believer now.
2007-06-27 16:17:18
15.   Jim Dean had Dave Roberts leading off.

When things are going bad, even the typos fuck with us.

2007-06-27 16:18:52
16.   Jim Dean
Chris Gomez was a free agent in the off-season. But since Cairo was available...
2007-06-27 16:23:28
17.   vockins
Holy empty seats, Batman...

I guess if there's an upside to this descent, it's that we all get to buy tickets at the box office on the day of the game again.

2007-06-27 16:24:26
18.   Jim Dean
Wow, maybe Bedard will strike out 27 tonight. That would be fun to watch.
2007-06-27 16:25:45
19.   Marcus
Time for a bunt....
2007-06-27 16:28:04
20.   Jim Dean
17 It's alot of no-shows - Yankee fans probably. I tried seeing what Ticketmaster had, and the seats availabe were pretty crappy.

Still, I'm think of heading to the Yard tomorrow. Buying the cheapest seat then sneaking behind homeplate. I just want to start the:

Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)

Boy, that would be cathartic, especially if I was close enough so he could hear me.

2007-06-27 16:30:36
21.   cult of basebaal
20 if he's still around in mid-august, i'll going out the games in ANA, bringing a collection of appropriate signs and paying for close seats opposite the yankees dugout

of course, you're far more likely to make yourself heard with all the no shows in camden yards

2007-06-27 16:37:49
22.   cult of basebaal
so, if Cairo has to play tonite, WTF isn't he playing 2nd to give Cano a rest against a tough lefty???
2007-06-27 16:40:16
23.   cult of basebaal
2007-06-27 16:42:52
24.   Marcus
20 Wasn't it you who had some similar taunts for Bernie at Camden Yard? Maybe you'll run into Torre on the street after the game and you can run through some suggestions for him.
2007-06-27 16:43:36
25.   Marcus
24 I guess I shouldn't say "similar taunts". I think it was that you suggested Bernie should bat only right handed?
2007-06-27 16:50:46
26.   iicollies
Clemens 29 pitches

Bedard 47 pitches

after 3 innings

2007-06-27 16:55:04
27.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Richie Sexson sux so much he should play for us -- pops out on the 1st pitch from Pamplemousse w/ runner on 3rd 1 out, b9th.

Meanwhile -- how could Ichiro not score from 2nd on a single?

2007-06-27 16:55:34
28.   OldYanksFan
Matsui: .783
Damon: .756
Aberu: .667
Cairo: .556
Cano_: .532
Melky: .496

3 When did RBIs become a valid stat?

So... is Miggy THE problem, or the smallest of MANY problems?

Miggy is a no-impact benchplayer who was hired to fill in when someone is injured or needs a late innings rest.

Matsui, Damon, Aberu, Cano and Melky are 5 starters, 55% of our offensive output.

Who should WE EXPECT more from?

How many ABs does Miggy have this year?
How many ABs do the 5 guys above total.
Divide Miggys ABs by total Yankee ABs. What the %age?
Now divide the 5 guys ABs by total Yankee ABs. What the %age?

So you want Phillips at first? OK. Take his numbers divided by Miggys numbers.. that the %age improvement. How many games more will we win?

Is this the answer? Fire Joe and put Phillips, or S. Duncan at first? This is why we are under .500?

2007-06-27 16:56:17
29.   monkeypants
22 That's crazy! Why would you play your starting firstbaseman at second?
2007-06-27 17:00:40
30.   monkeypants
28 By this logic, the 'real' problem(s) are players underperforming, which can't really be changed. The unimportant problems--and really, are they problems?--are those things that can easily be changed. But since they are the 'smallest' problem(s), they shyouldn't be changed. So the solution: do nothing.

I'm convinced!

2007-06-27 17:02:51
31.   atc
27 Any chance Joe was taking notes on how Francona just managed his bullpen?
2007-06-27 17:04:05
32.   Jim Dean
24 Good memory. It was and I did. Had a nice discussion about the splits :) then I told him I love him. I felt like a kid - albeit a smart-alecky one.

I would absolutely love to grill Torre on the Jeff Weaver Syndrome (I'd even call it that) and his need to start Cairo. Then I'd tell him he needs to retire even as he's still a HOFer.

BTW: If you're ever at a Camden game, I'm told it's pretty easy to meet the players. Most of them walk back to the team hotel. You just have to be willing to wait around after the game. Players entrance is right around the corner from the box office. Bernie, being the fastest to dress, proved the point!

2007-06-27 17:05:06
33.   monkeypants
Did the Orioles announcer just say something like: "these days, in the American League, I don't think you bunt because you don't want to give up an out to the opposing pitcher?"

That's crazy talk!

2007-06-27 17:05:48
34.   Jim Dean
30 I admire your effort. But OYF reasoned in Jan they could "afford" to carry Mfhdfjx. If nothing else, he's consistent.
2007-06-27 17:07:33
35.   cult of basebaal
28 ummm, look again, i'm not using RBI's, i'm presenting miggy's futility by opportunity, or OBI, which IS a telling stat, since it's rate based, not counting

Is Cairo THE REASON for this season?

Obviously, not.

But when your big guys are struggling, every little bit helps. And Torre's continued insistence on wasting at-bats on Cairo speak volumes ...

Torre hasn't given Phillips a chance. Isn't going to give Phillips a chance, because everything he does says he thinks Cairo is good enough, that the fact that he likes "Cairo's approach" means he doesn't consider Cairo a problem needing solving, which is just wrong.

A team that starts miguel cairo at 1st base deserves every loss it has coming ...

2007-06-27 17:10:32
36.   Jim Dean
35 I loved 3. It's a very telling stat, but I suspect too sophisticated for some.
2007-06-27 17:14:04
37.   Jim Dean
24 Best part of that memory (I have to keep reminding myself cause I'll forget the detail): When it came time to go our separate ways (me on my bike), Bernie reached out his hand to shake mine.

Sad that Bernie could have started tonight and eould have batted sixth. Probably would have started in CF too.

2007-06-27 17:16:28
38.   OldYanksFan
30 What would you suggest? I personally don't like seeing Miggy play first.

34 Believe it or not Jim, there are 1 or 2 players who start for a team because they offer above average D even though they offer avg. to below avg offense. Coco Crisp? But I guess his below average offense has de-railed his team.

However, had I known that Matsui, Damon, Abreu, Cano and Melky would average between the 5 of them, a RISP OPS of .647 (Crisp is .644), I would have gotten Dunn or someone of that ilk.

I was not happy about the DougOut signing. I did and do like good D at first. I loved watching Mattingly in the field. It's nice to see a few errors )more then a few actually, over a season) turned into outs. I simply felt the negative impact of DougOut compared to who else seemed available would not cost us that much.

2007-06-27 17:23:05
39.   Jim Dean
Last time Mfghjgsdk was an above average glove at 1B?

2002 (109 RATE).


2003 - 101
2004 - 100 (MIN)
2004 - 96 (BOS)
2005 - 94
2006 - 93
2007 - 95

2007-06-27 17:24:39
40.   Jim Dean
Good eye Robbie!
2007-06-27 17:25:28
41.   vockins
Holy crap, that walk was as good as a HR to me. Sweet.
2007-06-27 17:26:11
42.   Jim Dean
Okay - Thorne being dumb:

"Joe Torre's really had to manage."

2007-06-27 17:26:46
43.   Zack
Wait, theres a game on? Shucks, coulda fooled me...
2007-06-27 17:26:56
44.   monkeypants
38 Sorry, Coco Crisp was signed as a FA OPS+ seasons of 106 and 119, going into his year 26 season. All indications were that he was developing into a slugging CF who already could play great D. Now they are stuck with him, though the D is a nice consolation.

Re: 30 I told you, I wouldn't change anything, because it's not worth fixing the 'little problems.' I've come around.

2007-06-27 17:29:04
45.   cult of basebaal
44 well, given Miggy's stature, he certainly is our "little problem" ...
2007-06-27 17:29:21
46.   monkeypants
]36] Sorry, I'm not buying it anymore. Batting with RISP counts more. Like that last ground out by Cairo--that doesn't count because it wasn't with RISP.
2007-06-27 17:29:34
47.   OldYanksFan
35 I agree. Miggy should not be playing first. Phillips should. It would be a small improvement. Torre's bad. But a small improvement simply makes us a .520 team.

Cano leads the Yankees in RBI opportunities. His RISP BA is .207 and OPS is .532. Melky's RISP OPS is UNDER .500.

Where's the hate? The snide comments? Gee, can't you guys 'rank' on Cano/Melky?

My reaction is to the amount of hate Cairo gets. He has at least been a positive on D and on the bases. Joe shouldn't be starting him at first. He's a low paid, low production BUIF.

But this 'Hate Fest' is WAY over the top.
Inappropriate. Fast approaching infantile. How about some critical thinking about the OTHER 24 guys.

Has this site been reduced to making fun of Miguel Cairo?

2007-06-27 17:29:47
48.   Zack
Well at least the Sox just got swept by the mariners...too bad we couldn't gain a single game!!!
2007-06-27 17:30:07
49.   ChrisS

"However, had I known that Matsui, Damon, Abreu, Cano and Melky would average between the 5 of them, a RISP OPS of .647"

The thing is that all of those players have, and can again, hit well. I never expected much from Damon, that was a poor signing. But Cairo has shown no past ability to be anything better than a replacement level player.

I fully expect Cano to rebound, Melky is having a fine June since getting consistent starts in CF, and Abreu is recovering from a god awful May.

Can I reasonably expect Cairo to perform at a level consistent with league average first basemen? No.

2007-06-27 17:36:48
50.   Jim Dean
47 You don't seem to realize that Cano and Melky are very capable of doing better.

Cairo isn't.

Cano and Melky offer well above average defense at their positions.

Cairo doesn't.

Cano and Melky, even with their struggles, are probably right around league average in hitting for their positions.

Cairo is the worst 1B, by far, in the league.

Cano and Melky can't be easily replaced, through trades or through the farm.

The Yanks have had at least four guys (Pena, Phillips, Phelps, S.Duncan) in their system in the last year that would contribute more than Cairo.

Cairo is a HUGE problem becuase of how horrible he is relative to all other 1B's and how easily he could be replaced. I don't understand why this is so difficult to understand.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-06-27 17:38:11
51.   ChrisS
addiitonally, the easiest solution on this team is to bench Cairo.

Getting a replacement for Cano, Melky, or Abreu is lot more tricky than penciling in Andy Phillips name for a couple of weeks and giving him a better opportunity than 3 ABs and a seat on the bench (same for Phelps).

2007-06-27 17:38:52
52.   cult of basebaal
47 hate? what hate? just because i proposed that he be razed to the ground and his fields furrowed with salt lest he rise again, doesn't mean i hate him.
2007-06-27 17:39:14
53.   monkeypants
47 You misinterpret, I think, the 'hate fest': it's not against Cairo the person, but his inexcusable use as the starting 1B. You are right, he's a low paid BUIF of whom we have low expectation. So WHY is he starting every day at one of the most important slugging positions in the game? That is what starts the hate fest. Torre's predictability it putting him out there contributes to it. Silly attempts by fans to justify the move puts the fest over the top.

But I'm not speaking for myself--I'm convinced now.

2007-06-27 17:39:49
54.   Hocakes
It's hard to believe that Clemens is making over a million dollars for this start(not that it's a bad start, but ANY one start for a million bucks is incredible), that's Benny Hinn territory.
2007-06-27 17:41:02
55.   monkeypants
52 There is something sexual in there, I'm sure.
2007-06-27 17:41:05
56.   Zack
54 Even more so b/c its utterly meaningless b/c this team is DITW...
2007-06-27 17:42:14
57.   Jim Dean
54 Even harder to believe that at the end of the season, it won't have meant a damn thing.

Good thing Cashman saved so much money this off-season!

70 million between Igawa and Clemens alone.

2007-06-27 17:42:38
58.   Max
Too bad this has become "miggy sucks" banter, because this is actually a pretty good game -- both pitchers doing a great job through five.
2007-06-27 17:42:52
59.   Jim Dean
56 Great minds...
2007-06-27 17:43:23
60.   Jim Dean
58 It is a great game. Too bad it's meaningless.
2007-06-27 17:43:24
61.   ChrisS
54 It's hard to believe he hasn't struck anyone out tonight.

I thought the signing was pointless, but I was hoping he might be able to help out Phil with vet-to-rookie advice.

2007-06-27 17:44:21
62.   cult of basebaal
remember that brief shining moment when it appeared that going to the chiropractor had miraculously fixed all that ailed johnny damon???
2007-06-27 17:45:26
63.   Zack
Too bad Bedard is wasted on the O's...can we trade all of our aging, soon to be DH/1B types for him? I propose Damon, Matsui, Giambi, and Abreu for Bedard and Markakis! Do it!
2007-06-27 17:46:24
64.   monkeypants
56 I don't feel 'bad' for Clemens, but part of me was hoping that if hung around pitching until this season, he might challenge Spahn for the most wins in the 'real' modern era (comparisons to earlier pitchers, even early 20th century, are pretty tough). Then again, after I bitched about Bonds and steroids, maybe I shouldn't be so concerned about Clemens.
2007-06-27 17:46:26
65.   ChrisS
Bedard has serious skills.
2007-06-27 17:47:22
66.   monkeypants
62 I don't know, I was always skeptical, an d I was certainly unhappy with that bad approach he took. He should be trying to make solid contact, not going for HRs.
2007-06-27 17:51:54
67.   cult of basebaal
injury delay??? did the rocket go boom?
2007-06-27 17:53:15
68.   Jim Dean
If you're going to be the trainer of a MLB team, shouldn't you at least try to stay in okay shape?

Mean Gene looks like he hasn't seen his toes since '85.

2007-06-27 17:53:38
69.   randym77
The trainer went out to the mound, but Clemens stayed in. Dunno what the problem was.
2007-06-27 17:53:54
70.   Jim Dean
67 He's complaining about the mound and the landing spot.
2007-06-27 17:59:55
71.   Max
Oh well, it was looking like a good game.
2007-06-27 17:59:59
72.   cult of basebaal
well ... that sure turned to shit fast, didn't it ...
2007-06-27 18:00:06
73.   Paul in Boston
1) Jeter has no range up the middle. Fact.
2) No Ks for Clemens = eventual big inning.
2007-06-27 18:00:11
74.   Jim Dean
Aubrey Huff = Free Agent = Dec 2006
2007-06-27 18:00:30
75.   randym77
2007-06-27 18:01:06
76.   monkeypants
Aubrey Huff HR = not winning baseball.
2007-06-27 18:01:33
77.   randym77
The Orioles signed Huff instead of Craig Wilson.

I guess they made the right choice...

2007-06-27 18:02:15
78.   Max
73 not really fair to Jeter, that was a pretty well hit ball. Not that it matters at this point.
2007-06-27 18:02:48
79.   Jim Dean
Aubrey Huff = 1B in 2007 = 103 RATE (99 Career)
2007-06-27 18:03:15
80.   cult of basebaal
FACT: kevin millar's gameday photo makes pets, children and those with delicate sensibilities uneasy
2007-06-27 18:03:36
81.   Yankees Brasil
Aubrey Huff >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cairo
2007-06-27 18:04:11
82.   nemecizer
It's over dudes. I just don't see this team making the playoffs. I guess my panic attack during the first week (was just instinct) was right.

This just sucks. I hope the Yanks prove me wrong. I hope they make the playoffs. I don't count on it.

I just hope that, if the Yanks don't make the playoffs, that George doesn't shred the farm system by signing every washed up veteran out there.

I think I'll cry myself to sleep now.

2007-06-27 18:04:34
83.   monkeypants
Aubrey Huff = swinging hard = bad approach
2007-06-27 18:05:42
84.   Jim Dean
83 Ha!
2007-06-27 18:05:55
85.   monkeypants
81 That's not fair. We don't expect Cairo > Huff, so it doesn't matter whose better.
2007-06-27 18:07:41
86.   monkeypants
Dammit A-Rod, how can you give away ABs like that.
2007-06-27 18:11:24
87.   pistolpete
Joe Girar-di clap clap clap clap clap

Joe Girar-di clap clap clap clap clap

Joe Girar-di clap clap clap clap clap

Joe Girar-di clap clap clap clap clap

2007-06-27 18:13:27
88.   OldYanksFan
We will NOT take Abreu's option for $16m. Is there a price you WOULD re-sign him for? $8m, $10m, $12m? Or is he gone?
2007-06-27 18:15:03
89.   cult of basebaal
88 it's just hard to say right now ... what does the rest of the year look like? when he's been off this year, he's just been brutal
2007-06-27 18:15:09
90.   Marcus
From Peter Abraham:

"Could help be on the way? The Angels told Shea Hillenbrand tonight that he will be DFA'd on Friday. He could be a Yankee by the weekend."

When Shea Hillenbrand means "help", you know your season is in trouble.

2007-06-27 18:16:53
91.   pistolpete
90 Help for who?
2007-06-27 18:17:01
92.   OldYanksFan
Is Damon our 1st baseman next year? His chiropractor (and anyone with sense) knows his body can't take CF any more. I won't miss his arm.
2007-06-27 18:18:06
93.   monkeypants
88 I would normally agree with 89, and argue that his track record suggests keeping him. BUT, he's not exactly young, and we are now looking at two straight years of no power. That 16 million could be better used if they go into 'plan for the future mode.'

And I'm actually not being sarcastic here.

2007-06-27 18:18:21
94.   cult of basebaal
90 he does know how to identify a sinking ship however ...
2007-06-27 18:21:25
95.   OldYanksFan
93 If he continues his year like this, what's he worth on the FA market? $10m?
2007-06-27 18:22:26
96.   OldYanksFan
Sheff is really laughing his ass off. He's having a great year, headed to the PS, and the Yankees do a 1965 collapse.
2007-06-27 18:22:59
97.   monkeypants
92 What should be done, or what will be done?
2007-06-27 18:23:34
98.   OldYanksFan
Shea Hillenbrand is still better then Cairo or Phillips. What will he cost?
2007-06-27 18:23:45
99.   pistolpete
97 See 87
2007-06-27 18:24:10
100.   Shaun P
88 It depends. Who else is a free agent that can play RF? The Yanks have no one on the farm who can play RF and hit 20+ HRs. (Kevin Thompson could probably play every day, but I think Abreu, even without power, >> Thompson.)

Damon can't play RF because he has no arm. Matsui can't play RF because his power has seemingly evaporated. Melky has to play CF, because no one else can (including Damon).

90 This is a family-friendly site, so I won't type what just came out of my mouth when I read that.

If Shea Hillenbrand is the answer, someone better change the question, fast.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-06-27 18:26:34
101.   monkeypants
90 Prediction: Yanks pick up Hillenbrand and DFA Phillips. Hillenbrand starts two games and goes 1-8, and is then benched for Cairo.
2007-06-27 18:28:09
102.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Someone might've already mentioned this in the hour+ since I've checked in, but . . .

if Mr. Greentea brings out Mo to "get some work in" for the bottom of the 8th I'm going to lose it.

2007-06-27 18:28:29
103.   Shaun P
96 Yeah, Sheff is crushing the ball. BUT if the Yanks kept him -

The Yanks weren't going to sign him to an extension before the year started (maybe at all). So he'd bitch all year about that. Imagine how bad things would be now with that on top of the rest. (After all, Sheff can't pitch, isn't in charge of the bullpen, and can't - won't - play 1B.)

And then he'd leave as a free agent, and the Yanks would get nothing.

Or maybe the Yanks could have signed him to the 3 year extension he wanted, at $14M/per. Then we would have watched Sheffield and Giambi battle for time at DH next year - and watched Sheff deteriorate at DH until he was 41.

No, trading Sheff was the right move. The Yanks need another big bat, a right-handed big bat, but I have no problems with the Sheff trade.

2007-06-27 18:28:57
104.   Jim Dean
92 Damon at 1B isn't an answer. He's either a CF or a very expensive pinch runner.
2007-06-27 18:29:30
105.   tommyl
Why get Hillebrand when Shelly Duncan is sitting at AAA with 19 HRs?
2007-06-27 18:29:45
106.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Oh dear lord. What a friggin farce.
2007-06-27 18:30:16
107.   Shaun P
101 Its possible, but Hillenbrand is a proven veteran, which is half the battle. We'll see if he also has a belly full of guts, in which case he and Cairo will share the job.
2007-06-27 18:30:20
108.   ChrisS
Hillenbrand, king of the post-all-star decline.

It's stuff like this that makes me hate the Cairo/Nieves/DFA Phelps moves all the more. If they can't get the little roster things right, what makes anyone think they can get the big ones right?

I think trading RJ was a great idea, however.

2007-06-27 18:30:43
109.   OldYanksFan
98 I'll nswer my own question.
200 ABs AVG .254 HR 3 RBI 22 OBP .275 SLG .325.
When did he become so bad?
I remember watching him on the Red Sox.
He was a can't miss .300 hitter with pop.
Wow. I'll take Miggy.
2007-06-27 18:30:45
110.   WeMissPaulie
Oh god, NOW he brings Mariano in.....
2007-06-27 18:30:46
111.   Jim Dean
105 High on the BFOG scale.
2007-06-27 18:31:31
112.   pistolpete
Too little, too late Joe. Yeesh.
2007-06-27 18:31:52
113.   Zack
Ahhh, I love seeing Mo here and not last night. Oh the irony!!!
2007-06-27 18:31:58
114.   tommyl
Mo is in now?! Are you fucking kidding me?!
2007-06-27 18:32:02
115.   monkeypants
100 In my ideal world, Damon would be reduced to the 4th OF or LF (if he proves he's healthy), no matter how much he costs. Melky woul dbe the CF by default. Matsui would play LF or RF, despite his declining power. The team woul dthen try to sign one stud bat, whether a 1B or corner OF--I don't even know if one is out there.

Hey, who's this Rivera kid on the mound? did they just call him up?

2007-06-27 18:32:40
116.   Jim Dean
108 Except they got nothing in return for RJ. And he'd be the #3 on this team right now.
2007-06-27 18:32:41
117.   bobtaco
102 Commence losing it.
2007-06-27 18:32:49
118.   ChrisS
Oh my friggin lord.

Joe is insane.

2007-06-27 18:33:04
119.   WeMissPaulie
Watch us tie and then we don't have any BP left.....
2007-06-27 18:33:46
120.   Jim Dean
My fucking God - Mo to get work....

Fi-re Tor-re (clap clap clap-clap-clap).

2007-06-27 18:33:51
121.   Zack
Hillenbrand is a waste. And a jerk. At least Ciaro seems to be a nice guy :)

I really just can't watch this. Not onyl do we suck, but now we are just being mocked with Mo pitching now...

2007-06-27 18:34:03
122.   bobtaco
116 Clemens wouldn't have come with RJ still on the team.
2007-06-27 18:34:13
123.   monkeypants
114 et al: Hey, who are we to question the BP use? Torre has won 11 straight division titles.

I'm a believer...

2007-06-27 18:34:17
124.   ChrisS
116 and on the DL.

He's old, and they did get arms. They didn't get a superstar, but no one was gonna give the Yanks one.

2007-06-27 18:35:01
125.   Zack
116 A #3 who has spent more time on the DL than pitching...And we did get stuff in return, but you are chosing your classic small sample size instead of track record. Inconsistant my friend JD, inconsistant...
2007-06-27 18:35:09
126.   monkeypants
116 Actually, he'd be on the DL right now.
2007-06-27 18:36:11
127.   tommyl
Look Joe, this could have been the bottom of the 9th last night!
2007-06-27 18:36:16
128.   OldYanksFan
I can see us getting Ichiro, and I like it. With Ichiro/Matsui, we will once again be Japan's team.

I hope George doesn't push for A. Jones.
Who, at 1st, is available next year?
An OF of Damon/Matsui, Ichiro and Melky would be pretty decent on D.

2007-06-27 18:36:29
129.   Marcus
Now calm down Yankily-diddly-iddly. Torre did his best, shoddily-iddly-doodly. Aw hell diddly-ding-dong crap...
2007-06-27 18:37:24
130.   ChrisS
Too bad Mo didn't pitch last night.
2007-06-27 18:37:24
131.   Shaun P
I can't wait to see what Torre says when Pete Abe asks him why Rivera can pitch tonight. "Well, Mo hasn't pitched in a few days, so he needs to get some work in."

I am speechless. He's got to go.

108 Great point about Hillenbrand.

116 You're a little off, Jim. Unit would be #4 in innings pitched and #4 in games started.

I think he'd be #3 in terms of days missed on the DL by a starting pitcher though.

(I will now shut my mouth.)

2007-06-27 18:37:32
132.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
How's this:

Mo for player-manager.

He'd have to manage the pen correctly, no?; he wouldn't stand for losing; and he'd probably be willing to give non-belly-full-of-guts guys a shot, especially in the pen.

2007-06-27 18:38:49
133.   Shaun P
128 A decent defensive OF, but with absolutely no power.
2007-06-27 18:40:06
134.   monkeypants
128 I would only get Ichiro as a CF, not as a RF. In that case, Melky has to go to the bench. Plus Ichiro will cost a mint. I'm not sure he's a good fit (though a heck of a player).
2007-06-27 18:40:56
135.   Marcus
Now if A-Rod can lay down the perfect bunt here, we'll be in good shape.
2007-06-27 18:41:11
136.   claybeez
116 RJ's not even sure if he can make it through the year with his back issues. He could have a nice season or he could be done.
2007-06-27 18:41:11
137.   jkay
Its the gift that keeps giving.
2007-06-27 18:41:21
138.   Marcus
I meant Matsui.
2007-06-27 18:42:39
139.   Shaun P
134 I was going to make a BFOG crack, but I think we're beating that one to death.

I'm beyond frustrated now. I'm beyond angry now. I'm just sad.

2007-06-27 18:44:07
140.   monkeypants
139 I'm not sad--I've come to believe...I'm serene.
2007-06-27 18:44:11
141.   tommyl
Hmmm, maybe we should have Posada try to bunt his way on. I hear he's speedy.
2007-06-27 18:45:34
142.   ChrisS
128 outside of Ichior, not much,

Torii Hunter, Adam Dunn, Dimitri Young ....

2007-06-27 18:45:49
143.   OldYanksFan
I remember in the mid-late 60's, when playing .500 baseball was our goal, rooting for the Yanks basically consisted of hoping Murcer and White could hit .300.

Is this our immediate future?
Rooting for Derek?

2007-06-27 18:46:04
144.   tommyl
139 Really, I'm mad as hell. We could easily have won last night. For that matter, we could have won against the Giants by using Mo properly. I was joking last night saying Joe would bring in Mo to get some work. This is the height of stupidity.

Seriously, I want to sit him down and explain the concept of leverage to him. He seems to have no idea.

And I'm sick and tired of hearing how Joe is the greatest manager Jeter or anyone else has played for. Know what, you're losing, too bad. He loses his job.

2007-06-27 18:46:10
145.   monkeypants
141 NEVER bunt for a basehit--only for a sacrifice. That's winning baseball!
2007-06-27 18:46:48
146.   Jim Dean
122 And Clemens has made a difference, how? BTW: He's getting paid more than Unit.

124 Just until tomorrow. And he's already thrown 53 innings (128 ERA+). That's better pitching than Moose (65 IP, 85 ERA+), Roger (22 IP, 80 ERA+), or Igawa (35 IP, 60 ERA+).

125 Take a look at Vizcaino, Jackson, Ohlendorf, and Alberto. They all suck - big time.

2007-06-27 18:47:04
147.   vockins
If the press doesn't hound Joe on the use of Mo, I'm not buying a paper ever again. Or something.
2007-06-27 18:48:08
148.   tommyl
2 outs
2007-06-27 18:48:10
149.   Marcus
See, he should have bunted.
2007-06-27 18:49:48
150.   monkeypants
147 Check out LoHud. Pete Abe asked him about Mo last night--Torre gave an answer that was not only flawed logically, it suggests that he didn't even know on what day Rivera had last pitched. It seems sad, but maybe in Torre's mind it's 1996 or something.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-06-27 18:50:51
151.   monkeypants
Negatives: losing; Torre PH for Cairo

Postives: few base clogging walks; little evidence that hitters were going for HRs

2007-06-27 18:51:01
152.   tommyl
Lets all start just following the Trenton team. They have a lights out rotation.
2007-06-27 18:51:47
153.   ChrisS
Jim you can't convince me that keeping Randy Johnson around was good for this team.

However, you can convince me that DFA-ing everyone and starting over could be a good idea.

2007-06-27 18:52:01
154.   tommyl
150 Does Joe not realize the whole reason the Yankees were good in 1996 was because he used Mo in high leverage (as opposed to save) situations?
2007-06-27 18:52:58
155.   ChrisS
152 Yeah, start rooting for them before they get packaged up for Mark Burhle and Paul Konerko
2007-06-27 18:53:07
156.   Jim Dean
153 I was fine with trading him. I was not fine with what they got in return.
2007-06-27 18:53:35
157.   OldYanksFan
I simply find it hard to accept the team is this bad.
2007-06-27 18:53:45
158.   ChrisS
154 He had Wetteland slotted in the "Always in the ninth" role.
2007-06-27 18:54:07
159.   Jim Dean
157 The team is this bad.
2007-06-27 18:54:18
160.   tommyl
Lets see 5 hits tonight: A-Rod, Jeter, Posada, Matsui and Melky.

Why am I not surprised?

2007-06-27 18:54:34
161.   ChrisS
156 I think that's all they could get. He's cranky, 43, bad knees and back, and had underwhelming years in NY. I'm surprised they got anything at all.
2007-06-27 18:55:09
162.   tommyl
158 Which is why they won. They had their "setup" man as the closer, and their "closer" as their setup man.
2007-06-27 18:55:23
163.   vockins
150 That was cool, but I want the follow up based on Joe's answer from last night.
2007-06-27 18:55:27
164.   OldYanksFan
Could we be back on the road to the Horace Clarke/Gene Michael dynasty?
2007-06-27 18:55:42
165.   Jim Dean
161 BS. The Dbacks needed him more than the Yanks needed to get rid of him. That's why they gave him an extension.
2007-06-27 18:55:43
166.   ChrisS
Anyway, for shopping after the season is over:

2007-06-27 18:56:03
167.   Shaun P
140 I wish I was serene.

143 Don't forget about Hughes! And I imagine we'll enjoy watching A-Rod hit #500 (and beyond).

The difference between now and the mid-to-late-60s is that I think the Yanks will be back in contention soon. They are at least drafting well - and developing many pitchers. Those late 60s teams didn't do anything in terms of player development.

I have hope for the future. But unless Joe has a revelation, I don't have much hope for the present.

2007-06-27 18:56:49
168.   3rd gen yankee fan
I've never been so depressed over baseball.
2007-06-27 18:57:01
169.   Marcus
153 I agree. You can maybe convince me that Cashman should have gotten a better deal, but not that RJ should have stayed. The guy has a bulging disc and has stated that he's in a lot of pain and that he's just pitching through it. This is from the other day:

"I don't know how much longer I can pitch with it," Johnson said. "So I'm going in with a positive frame of mind. I'll go as hard as I can as long as I can. When I was in New York, I pitched through a lot of discomfort."

It's just like last year with the Yanks.

2007-06-27 18:57:42
170.   monkeypants
158 He got away with it because instead of EDSC he had EDMR, and he happened to strike gold. 1996 was statistically Mo's best season, better than any year as closer. Torre keeps using Proctor, Quantril, Karsay, etc hoping to find the next guy who is lights out for 80 appearances in a season.
2007-06-27 18:57:46
171.   OldYanksFan
From Lohud: Yankees relievers have walked 138, the most in the majors. They have struck out 162, 25th in the majors.
2007-06-27 18:57:47
172.   Jim Dean
167 They still need position players:

1b and RF

I wouldn't be surprised if Jorge and Mo left, after Joe gets fired.

Times are a ch-changin'

2007-06-27 18:58:56
173.   Jim Dean
169 And he's still pitching better than Moose, Roger, or Igawa.
2007-06-27 19:00:41
174.   Jim Dean
And don't give me the NL West crap. Roger stunk against the Rox. Moose stunk against the Giants. And Igawa is still Igawa.
2007-06-27 19:01:07
175.   monkeypants
167 Check out the last few threads and you'll see why I'm serene. I've been convinced that all my bitching has been misplaced. There is nothing thay can do to imporve; it's not worth sweating the 'small things' like an incompetent manager (he did win 11 straight division titles) who plays a cripple and a BUIF at DH and 1B. I've gone through all the stages of death and dying and reached acceptance. I "get" it.

I am serene.

2007-06-27 19:02:01
176.   Marcus
173 Before the herniated disc acted up. Let's see how he pitches the rest of the season. If he's done pitching quality innings from here on out, he's not much good. But we'll see, he could push through it.

But I'm starting to agree that Cashman could have made a better trade.

2007-06-27 19:02:36
177.   Jim Dean
175 Nice.

I'm still in the angry stage. Very angry.

2007-06-27 19:03:32
178.   Zack
146 Jim, your blinders are on. YOu are so hung up on you "gut" about that RJ trade and are using small sample sizes all over the place. What in the world makes you think that Randy would put up those #s in the AL East? He'd give us innings, well, some innings, and another high 4 era? Shoot, Clippard can do that...And as for Viz and the rest, once again, sample size. Ohli has pitched in, oh, 7 games and has been hurt. Jackson hasn't been very good, but he has a track record of success. But, instead, you are choosing to base your opnion on 7 games and a very bad stretch for Viz, who, as has been pointed out to you a lot lately, has put equaly # of good innings. Maybe he will get it worked out, maybe not.

But RJ and his attittude, injuries, and two years in a row of mid to high 4 era? Yeah, sign me up...

But hey, if you say all those guys suck big time, its got to be true, sample size be damned! track records be damned! 7 starts shall dictate his suckatude forever!!!

2007-06-27 19:03:42
179.   vockins
167 I sincerely hope we don't watch ARod hit #500 and beyond in a Yankees uniform. He's the key to this team getting a lot better a multiple postions this year.
2007-06-27 19:04:21
180.   Jim Dean
176 All I would have liked is one of their three 1B's (Tony Clark now included) or one of their two catchers.

Instead he got parts that even the Tampa Yankees didn't need.

2007-06-27 19:04:23
181.   Shaun P
There is some mid-level talent available, but no real impact bat. Adam Dunn might be an impact bat, but he's not a real free agent - he has a club option, and I'm sure the Reds won't let him get away for nothing. Andruw Jones looks totally lost. Ichiro has no power.

Maybe the Yanks' plan is to sign Fukudome and play him in RF? 'Cause I don't really see any other options.

2007-06-27 19:07:48
182.   Jim Dean
178 See 174.

Vizcaino is a crappy reliever that stands in the way of Chrs Britton and young Edwar.

Jackson and Ohlendorf will never throw one pitch for the NY Yankees, seeing as there are 9 or 10 starters ahead of them on the mL depth chart.

179 They're not trading him this season, and then he can opt out whenever he wants after he refuses to get traded.

2007-06-27 19:08:00
183.   Zack
Actually Jim, i will give you the NL west crap because, living in a town in the Nl west and watching them consistantly, PLUS having PETCO and Chavez Ravine, two of the most extreme pitchers parks, plus having the weak weak hitting Dodgers padres and rockies...yeah, i will give you the nl west crap
2007-06-27 19:08:22
184.   yankz
2007-06-27 19:09:18
185.   yankz
178 You still bother?
2007-06-27 19:09:19
186.   Jim Dean
181 The Yanks have a plan for RF? That would be something new. It only took three years for a CF and going on four years for a 1B.

They'll get to RF in 2010.

2007-06-27 19:09:39
187.   monkeypants
179 Maybe, but it's usually hard to equal value when you trade one superstar for a bunch of less-than-superstars. I'd prefer they wrap him up 'til he's 38 and purge the rest of the sluff.

On the other hand, 500+ means he's hittng too many HRs and not bunting enough; probably giving away too many ABs at he same time.

2007-06-27 19:10:45
188.   Zack
182 Yeah, and there were about 9 or 10 starters ahead of Clippard before this season started, look how that turned out...

Vizcaino is not standing in the way of Britton and Edwar (who they are keeping in AAA to improve his fastball command, if you read up on him), Villone and Farnsworth and Myers and Joe Torre are standing in the way.

I still love the "I would have loved x y and z for Randy." Thats good stuff. Because, of course, Arizona just gave us a copy of their organizational roster and said, "have your pick Brian, whoever you want, their yours!"

2007-06-27 19:11:45
189.   Shaun P
179 If any of the teams who have lots of prospects would actually trade them for A-Rod, but they won't. The Dodgers aren't going to give up their guys. The Angels - well, for all the hype, their guys look pretty crappy.

180 et al.

Give me a break. Isn't watching the Yanks lose and lose bad enough? Do we have to dredge up "the Yanks should have gotten more for Unit"? Like Torre would actually play anyone who's under the age of 30. Like Montero and Snyder are actually hitting. Like Tony Clark (.234/.288/.319 and 1 HR away from the hitter's paradise of Chase Field) wouldn't have been benched for Cairo by now.

I'm outta here.

2007-06-27 19:12:14
190.   Jim Dean
183 He's been better than Moose, Roger, and Igawa - that's all I'm saying. And Moose and Roger crapped the bed against the worst teams in that division.

So no, I'm not buying the quality of the competition argument, especially since the Yanks just lost 5 of 6 to the Giants and Rox.

2007-06-27 19:12:37
191.   Zack
185 I'm in a fiesty mood tonight. need to vent, and Jim Dean is always willing to take me on, no?

And I'm not defending Cashman, I have no problem with him leaving IF, and only IF, he is replaced by a Stick man as opposed to a Tampa man (a big IF).

Rather, what I am doing is simply pointing out that it just aint as easy as saying "we should have done x y and z."

2007-06-27 19:14:44
192.   Zack
190 Yeah, they sucked against the Rockies, but the Sox just got swept by Weaver and the Mariners, does that mean anything? Heck, Kenny Rogers was better than RJ last year, does that mean we should have tried to get him?
2007-06-27 19:15:39
193.   Jim Dean
188 Yanks didn't have to trade him if they were going to get nothing in return. They got nothing in return.

Meanwhile, Clippard was the fourth best pitching prospect in the organization.

And they're telling Edwar that cuase they aren't going to tell him he needs to work on his belly full of guts. You know, cause his 17 BB in 40 IP tells me he has control problems (against 74 K's)

2007-06-27 19:16:55
194.   Jim Dean
192 The M's are a better baseball team than the Yankees.
2007-06-27 19:21:25
195.   ChrisS
189 My apologies, I let the RJ trade quip slip out thinking that Jim was still on hiatus.

My mistake.

2007-06-27 19:23:09
196.   Jim Dean
195 It's all relevant because of who pitched for the Yankees tonight.

And he didn't earn his 1 million.

2007-06-27 19:25:06
197.   Jim Dean
Regarding my hiatus: The only other person we vacationed with that enjoys baseball is also a Red Sox fan. And I knew we had nothing to talk about when he said Kason Gabbard is the next Koufax (swear to God).
2007-06-27 19:39:27
198.   Zack
I would just like to remind everyone that despite the Sox getting swept by the Mariners, the Yanks gaine just 1/2 game.
2007-06-27 19:42:39
199.   Schteeve
Torre is gonna be gone by noon tomorrow.
2007-06-27 19:48:27
200.   Schteeve
I remember almost one year ago, we were all lining up to order Cashman jerseys. How things have changed. I'm pissed at him. Isn't it his job to call up guys like Britton and Edwar, and send down guys like Viz? Isn't it his job to sit down with Torre and tell him that his usage of Cairo is excessive?

I want Torre gone but I can't decide if I want Cash gone with him.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-06-27 19:52:07
201.   Zack
Im so torn of Cashman, not because I am sold onhim or anything, but b/c I see him as attached to the future of the farm system. Of Oppenhiemer or Stick could talk over, great, fire Cashman, but what are the real chances of that happening?

Torre should go cuasse it ain't working anymore, and Cash should probably go b/c it also ain't working, but God help us if George/Harold allow Tampa to take back over...

2007-06-27 20:00:57
202.   monkeypants
200 As I have speculated before, I reallly believe that once the main rosters are set in the of season, the manager and coaches have a lot to say about who gets calld up. Whether it should be or not, I suspect that GMs simply do not mandate personanel decisions mideason (at least to marginal players--obviously the GM will try to work big trades, like the Abreu deal). But when it come to Vizcaino v. Britton, Cashman probably defers to Torre/Guidry.

Of course, this is my speculation, and I am a bit of a Cashman apologist.

2007-06-27 20:04:51
203.   Schteeve
202 Wouldn't you say that defering to Torre and Guidry on the matter of Viz v. Britton borders on criminal negligence?
2007-06-27 20:20:37
204.   monkeypants
203 Hey, it's just my suspicion. Just like Cashman supposedly fought for more control, I imagine that high profile coaches/managers demand a certain amount of personnel input as well ("They want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries").

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