Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
The Baltimore Orioles
2007-06-26 12:57
by Cliff Corcoran

The Orioles entered June in second place in the AL East with a .500 record. They then proceeded to go 2-14 to drop into last place, with the added indignity of being swept at home by the Nationals along the way. A week ago, eight games into the nine-game losing streak that concluded that 16-game slide, the O's fired manager Sam Perlozzo. Perlozzo's three seasons as Orioles manager perfectly illustrate how poorly run the team has been in its recent history.

The Orioles limped to a .438 winning percentage in the fourth and final year of Mike Hargrove's skippership in 2003. Lee Mazzilli took over the team in 2004 and led it to a .481 winning percentage, it's best mark since Hargrove's first season in 2000 and good enough for a third-place finish, the first time the O's had finished outside of fourth since they'd last won the division in 1997. Of course, that third place finish had more to do with the collapse of the Blue Jays than anything else, but still, the improvement was obvious.

In 2005, Mazzilli took largely the same O's team to the top of the standings in the early going. Mazzilli's O's were in first place as late as June 23, when, suddenly, the bottom fell out. The Orioles went 9-28 from the final week of June through the beginning of August, falling all the way down to their customary fourth, and dropping from 14 games over .500 to five games under. On August 3, following an eight-game losing streak that capped a 1-14 skid, the O's fired Mazzilli and replaced him with Sam Perlozzo.

When the O's canned Mazzilli, the team had a .477 record. Having finished at .481 the year before, it seemed clear that the O's were merely a .500 team that had played over its head in the first half of 2005 and had just experienced a rather cruel course correction. With Perlozzo at the helm, the O's immediately halted their skid with a pair of wins, and proceeded to go 9-4 to climb back to .500, but that was as much as the new manager could get out of his charges. Baltimore went 14-28 the rest of the way and the players appeared to visibly quit on their new skipper, who posted a .418 winning percentage in his portion of the season. Mix in the Rafael Palmeiro drug scandal and the team was an ebarassment on field and off.

It's an overused quote, but they say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. I'd counter that that's actually the definition of incompetence, which describes the O's to a tee. Baltimore retained Perlozzo in 2006, perhaps because they knew the manager would be able to lure his old buddy Leo Mazzone away from Atlanta to become the new Oriole pitching coach. Perlozzo got Mazzone, but it didn't matter. The 2006 O's settled in fourth place for good on April 29, the players once again sulked through the season, and the team finished with a .432 winning percentage.

So the O's brought back Perlozzo again for 2007 only to finally fire him in late June with his sulking ballclub sporting a .420 winning percentage. In Perlozzo's defense, the O's didn't do much to improve the team on the field during his time as manager. The team's best players (Miguel Tejada, Brian Roberts, Melvin Mora, Eric Bedard, Chris Ray) were already in place in 2005. The best addition the team has made since then has been catcher Ramon Hernandez, who has missed time with a pair of leg injuries this year. Rookies Nick Markakis and Adam Loewen arrived in 2006, but Loewen is out indefinitely with a stress fracture in his pitching elbow. Meanwhile, the team's imports have included include Kevin Millar, Aubrey Huff, Jay Payton, Corey Patterson, the $50 million-dollar bullpen of Danys Baez (currently on the DL), Chad Bradford, Jamie Walker, and Scott Williamson, and Steve Trachsel, who is only on the team because the trade of John Maine for Kris Benson blew up in the Orioles' faces. Those players do not a winning baseball team make. Meanwhile, Mazzone has been unable to fix failed prospect Daniel Cabrera, and, with Perlozzo gone, Mazzone may decide to split himself. It's no wonder Joe Girardi declined the Orioles job offer.

Speaking of trading for injured pitchers, the Orioles have the Jaret Wright trade to thank for one of the few bright spots in their 2007 season, tonight's starter Jeremy Guthrie. After drafting him out of Stanford with the 21st-overall pick in 2002, the Indians tried to fast-track Guthrie to the majors, but instead stunted his progress. After being thrust into triple-A after just nine pro starts in 2003, Guthrie finally experienced success in his fourth attempt at the level last year, but that didn't translate to the majors, where he posted a 6.98 ERA mostly in relief. The O's plucked the former top prospect of waivers this January and stuck him in the pen as a long reliever after he aced spring training. That didn't go so well (7.84 ERA), but the injuries to Loewen and Wright--the latter of whom has pitched in as many games for the O's as Chris Britton has for the Yanks this season: three--forced Guthrie into the rotation in the beginning of May where he's pitched like an ace, posting a 1.63 ERA, a 0.74 WHIP, going nine-for-nine in quality starts, and averaging 7 1/3 innings per game. Of course, on the Orioles that's been good for three wins and six no-decisions as the team has managed to lose five of his starts including one he left in the ninth inning having surrendered just one unearned run (the final score of that game: 6-5 Red Sox). Another testiment to the wisdom of Joe Girardi.

Opposing Guthrie tonight is Andy Pettitte, who knows a thing or two about pitching in bad luck. Pettitte made news after his last start when he admitted that he "quit pitching" after Matt Holliday drove his changeup 442 feet into the left field stands (really over the left field stands) to turn a 1-0 Yankee lead into a 2-1 Rocky advantage in the sixth inning. What Andy really meant was that he abandoned his game plan after that pitch, and the results showed it. Holliday's homer came with two outs and the Yankees only got out of the sixth because Todd Helton was thrown out trying to score on a single. Six of the eight batters Pettitte faced after Holliday hit safely including a Helton double and a Kaz Matsui triple that finally ended his night with the Yankees trialing 5-1. One imagines that both that performance, his post-game admission, and the Yankees 1-5 record on their current road trip will have him pitching with an increased intensity tonight. For that reason, I'm expecting a pitchers duel between Guthrie, facing a Yankee offense which seems to go whichever direction Bobby Abreu goes, which right now is down, and Pettitte facing the Orioles' offense which is the fourth worst in the AL and features just one batter, Brian Roberts, who is meaninfully more productive than league average.

Incidentally, Pettitte did not start against the Orioles when they came to the Stadium in early April, but did throw a scoreless relief inning against them in the series finale. Guthrie, meanwhile, has faced the Yankees just once, doing so the second major league game of his career, which just happened to be the Indians 22-0 win at the Stadium on August 31, 2004. Guthrie threw the final two innings of that historic blowout.

Baltimore Orioles

2007 Record: 32-43 (.427)
2007 Pythagorean Record: 36-39 (.482)

Manager: Dave Trembley
General Manager: Mike Flanagan

Home Ballpark (2007 Park Factors): Oriole Park at Camden Yards (99/99)

Who's Replacing Whom?

Dave Trembley replaces Sam Perlozzo
Jay Payton (DL) replaces Miguel Tejada (DL)
John Knott (minors) replaces Alberto Castillo (minors)
Rob Bell (minors) and Paul Shuey (minors) replace Jeremy Guthrie and Danys Baez (DL) in the bullpen
Guthrie and Brian Burres (minors) replace Jaret Wright (DL) and Adam Loewen (DL) in the rotation

25-man Roster

1B - Aubrey Huff (L)
2B - Brian Roberts (S)
SS - Chris Gomez (R)
3B - Melvin Mora (R)
C - Ramon Hernandez (R)
RF - Nick Markakis (L)
CF - Corey Patterson (L)
LF - Jay Payton (R)
DH - Kevin Millar (R)


L - Jay Gibbons (OF)
L - Freddie Bynum (UT)
R - John Knott (OF)
L - Paul Bako (C)


L - Erik Bedard
R - Daniel Cabrera
L - Brian Burres
R - Steve Trachsel
R - Jeremy Guthrie


R - Chris Ray
L - Jamie Walker
R - Chad Bradford
R - Scott Williamson
L - John Parrish
R - Rob Bell
R - Paul Shuey

15-day DL: R - Miguel Tejada (SS), R - Danys Baez, R - Sendy Rleal
60-day DL: R - Kris Benson, R - Jaret Wright, L - Adam Loewen, R - Jon Leicester


S - Brian Roberts (2B)
R - Melvin Mora (3B)
L - Nick Markakis (RF)
R - Ramon Hernandez (C)
L - Aubrey Huff (1B)
R - Kevin Millar (DH)
R - Jay Payton (LF)
L - Corey Patterson (CF)
R - Chris Gomez (SS)

Comments (283)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-06-26 13:40:58
1.   OldYanksFan
Time to start our drive for the wildcard.
2007-06-26 13:44:30
2.   C2Coke
1 Sounds good to me!

Let's Go Yankees!

2007-06-26 13:48:25
3.   ny2ca2dc
1,2 Roger that; I'll be at the game tonight. Was feeling pretty melancholy about it, with the weather and the 2 hour slog around the beltway & up 95 awaiting, but now that it's time to head out, I'm pumped for my first game of the year (my god, seriously?!). And, we need to put something together before the 4th of July weekend - I'll be spending it with the wife & her extended family in Boston...

Let's Go Yankees!

2007-06-26 15:05:42
4.   Schteeve
even if they sweep these jamokes, i won't feel good about it.
2007-06-26 15:13:21
5.   thelarmis
i think i look more forward to cliff's most excellent team reports before each series than the games themselves at this point.

hey cliff, whaddya say you write up one these for our yankees after the ASB, summarizing our 1st half and taking a peek at the 2nd half...?

anyway, we really MUST sweep the Oreo's. period, end of. no excuses.

2007-06-26 16:04:54
6.   monkeypants
Just saw the lineup at LoHud--Damon leading off (apparently now that he got a clean bill of health from his...chiropractor), Cairo starting at first. I'm sorta numb and not really angry anymore. Is this what it feels like when you are dying?
2007-06-26 16:16:52
7.   mehmattski
"Joe Torre said Abreu is hitting eighth because of his struggles (7 of his last 42) and will be back at No. 3 once he figures it out."

First of all: "OMG Abreu's batting eighth! Torre hates Abreu! I hope Abreu can handle it with his ego!"


Second of all: how is someone supposed to figure it out with the most inept starting hitter in baseball hitting behind him?

2007-06-26 16:21:34
8.   Schteeve
Also, Paul Shuey is still alive?
2007-06-26 16:25:04
9.   Schteeve
Guthrie has a no-hitter going so far. Unbelieveable. A Noooo hitter.
2007-06-26 16:28:08
10.   Schteeve
Is this thing on?
2007-06-26 16:28:26
11.   thelarmis
at risk of becoming a broken LP, i hate leadoff walks.

9 a no-hitter, huh? well, i'll be...

cap'n jeter is 33 today. seems like he's a bit farther along than i am in the same amount of time... : ~

where is everyone?

2007-06-26 16:29:46
12.   mehmattski
10 I'm in Durham NC, which is, clearly, Baltimore Orioles territory. And FSN South, which occasionally carries the games, is showing poker. I'm still deciding if I have the patience to load up Sterling and Waldman. I'll return with the snark if so.
2007-06-26 16:31:55
13.   Chyll Will
11 Yanks vs. Oreos = (cricket, cricket...)
2007-06-26 16:34:43
14.   Emma Span
11 If I had to guess: on the floor, in the fetal position, gently weeping.
2007-06-26 16:35:32
15.   monkeypants
Why did he slide?
2007-06-26 16:35:38
16.   Mattpat11
Kay is AWFUL.
2007-06-26 16:37:07
17.   thelarmis
13 these Oreos are more like Hydrox. we need to sweep. leadoff bunts to "make things happen," ain't gonna cut it...
2007-06-26 16:38:21
18.   thelarmis
there goes the no-no!
2007-06-26 16:39:32
19.   monkeypants
That's why they have Cairo.
2007-06-26 16:39:50
20.   thelarmis
jack cust just smashed his 12th homer in 44 games. he and carlos pena are riding hot streaks. shelley duncan really needs to be given a chance...
2007-06-26 16:40:16
21.   Chyll Will
17 What are those Girl Scout cookies that nobody buys? That's what they are...
2007-06-26 16:41:19
22.   monkeypants
Yep, Damon looks healthy all right.
2007-06-26 16:41:42
23.   thelarmis
well that was productive. JD needs to stop thinking he's superman and get some rest on the DL...
2007-06-26 16:45:28
24.   thelarmis
well, it's better than a damn leadoff walk...
2007-06-26 16:48:48
25.   Chyll Will
20 Jack Cust would make a good Shane Spencer on our team, wouldn't he?

I've got two nicknames ready for ol' Shelly when he comes up, depending on how he does...

If Shelly > Good .. AngelFood
If Shelly < Bad .... Meatcake!

2007-06-26 16:52:39
26.   thelarmis
just settin' up the DP. god, i hope that's all it is...
2007-06-26 16:55:10
27.   thelarmis
not quite the way i drew it up...
2007-06-26 16:56:58
28.   thelarmis
phillies just stole home vs. young homer bailey. catcher was running. can you imagine nieves even reaching 3rd base???
2007-06-26 16:57:34
29.   thelarmis
c'mon birthday boy!!!
2007-06-26 16:57:40
30.   monkeypants
28 3rd base?
2007-06-26 16:58:27
31.   WeMissPaulie
Is this going to be one of THOSE games? How many times have we seen an unproven rookie shut the Yankees down? I hope not.
2007-06-26 17:00:41
32.   thelarmis
30 yeah, meaning nieves standing on 3rd being in position to steal home...
2007-06-26 17:01:25
33.   thelarmis
ugh. that inning was waaaay too quick...
2007-06-26 17:01:36
34.   Kered Retej
Random non-game-related question: I always see the "small sample size" argument when stats are quoted, but has anyone ever tried to determine what sample size is actually significant for baseball?

For instance for hitting, is 20 ABs significant? 50? 200? Is even a full season significant enough, where plenty of guys have "fluke" years? At what point is it reasonable for a manager to say, I'm going to play hitter A over hitter B because he has a better history against pitcher C?

Apologies if this is a very basic sabermetric question.

2007-06-26 17:04:20
35.   OldYanksFan
The Orioles announcer just called the famous Kay 'There IT goes... and it's caught at the wall' call.
2007-06-26 17:09:05
36.   51cq24
what the hell was that
2007-06-26 17:09:39
37.   thelarmis
has andy "quit pitching" already in the 4th frame?
2007-06-26 17:09:47
38.   cult of basebaal
i wonder if any jury would convict me if I cut off The Gnome's head and left in Joe's bed, ala The Godfather ...
2007-06-26 17:10:45
39.   51cq24
has bobby abreu quit fielding?
2007-06-26 17:14:21
40.   thelarmis
2007-06-26 17:14:24
41.   51cq24
that certainly looked like strike 3. not as big as the outfield play though.
2007-06-26 17:14:26
42.   Hocakes
What's Andy on?
2007-06-26 17:17:10
43.   51cq24
42 a shitty team
2007-06-26 17:18:58
44.   spufi2007
Yet another lifeless effort. Andy is lucky it's only 2-0. And Corey Patterson is the one killing us? Good Lord.

Guthrie's thrown 40 pitches after 4 innings. He is simply breezing right now.

Anyone want to start talking about 1965 again?

2007-06-26 17:21:50
45.   thelarmis
ugh!!! soooo frustrating...
2007-06-26 17:21:55
46.   bartap74
45 Maybe it's time to start talking about 2008.
2007-06-26 17:22:44
47.   monkeypants
Strikes outs are bad; put it in play and good things happens. At least the DP erased the baseclogging walk.
2007-06-26 17:23:59
48.   51cq24
47 so tell cano to strike out next time
2007-06-26 17:25:26
49.   monkeypants
48 Just calling attention to some fallacies spouted posted in recent days.
2007-06-26 17:29:31
50.   cult of basebaal
49 strikeouts are bad, mmmmmkay? i've seen it with my own eyes, mmmkay?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-06-26 17:30:37
51.   Zack
Wow, isn't it amazing that considering everything Cliff wrote in his header, the O's look like the FAR better team so far? I mean, is that a testament to the 2007 Yanks or what?

Wow, weird ass crazy bat/ball play by Jetes there!

2007-06-26 17:30:59
52.   51cq24
49 i know. but in general, all things being equal, isn't it better when a player puts the ball in play more often than not?

i've never seen a play like that before.

2007-06-26 17:31:12
53.   Marcus
47 50 The more you guys lay on the cynical humor, the more I can tolerate this game, so keep it coming.

Maybe some more bunts would make this game more enjoyable.

2007-06-26 17:31:40
54.   Zack
To be fair, Guthrie has been $$ all year (a fantasy savior for me thus far). I guess we just have to wait for Chris Ray to pitch in the 9th to win it?
2007-06-26 17:33:24
55.   monkeypants
52 But all things are generally not equal, and that reasoning has been used to justify the unjustifiable (Cairo is fine at first cuz at least he puts it in play).
2007-06-26 17:34:49
56.   cult of basebaal
52 actually not, the chances for a double play are greater than the chances of an error or other mishap, at least at the major league level ... obviously we're speaking only of situations such as the one that cano was just in
2007-06-26 17:35:16
57.   51cq24
55 i know. but strikeouts aren't not bad. and cairo is definitely not equal to a major league starter.
2007-06-26 17:36:11
58.   thelarmis
80 pitches, loads of bb's, barely and k's this season for andy. aaarrrggghhh!!!
2007-06-26 17:36:19
59.   Zack
If anyone wants to feel better, go over to River Ave Blues and read the article and discussion on the nastiness that is the Trenton rotation...
2007-06-26 17:37:09
60.   OldYanksFan
I think it's possible that the negative energy in the Yankee blogosphere has caused a crack in the Yankees cosmic aura. I suggest we all get out our pyramids and chant 'HA!' until ARod and Jeter right this ballgame and create harmony and balance.

Either that or maybe Jetes and ARod should try some sleep-overs.

2007-06-26 17:38:31
61.   51cq24
56 but a dp ground ball isnt the only thing that can happen when you put the ball in play. and the reason i said "in general" was that i meant in all situations over the course of a season.
2007-06-26 17:38:39
62.   cult of basebaal
how about we just sacrifice the virgin cairo to appease the angry gods of bad mojo?
2007-06-26 17:38:53
63.   thelarmis
hey, whaddya know, another walk. yippee!!!
2007-06-26 17:41:57
64.   Zack
62 Funny cause oyur name has "cult" in it. haha :)

Seriously though, what god would accept Cairo as sacrifice? We could at least offer Melky or Phillips, much more attractive. Heck, I think anyone would work better...Save Torre that is...

2007-06-26 17:42:25
65.   51cq24
62 i'd prefer to bat him 2nd every game. he'll get in a groove. it's a torre hunch!
2007-06-26 17:42:57
66.   yankz
We play today, we get humiliated today.
2007-06-26 17:44:46
67.   51cq24
2/2 tonight. he's definitely leading off tomorrow.
2007-06-26 17:45:26
68.   monkeypants
Take that, Monkeypants. Ha!
2007-06-26 17:45:32
69.   thelarmis
what happened to OBP and perennial 20-20 guy?
2007-06-26 17:46:49
70.   Alvaro Espinoza
Game on...
2007-06-26 17:46:53
71.   51cq24
well that is almost literally unbelievable
2007-06-26 17:47:33
72.   Zack
Maybe the chiropractor was right?
2007-06-26 17:47:56
73.   monkeypants
Read post 6, then tell me to f*ck off!


2007-06-26 17:48:33
74.   cult of basebaal
oh, i love it when gamecast is behind and good things are about to happen ...
2007-06-26 17:49:10
75.   randym77
Boy, what would we do without Cairo and Damon?
2007-06-26 17:50:13
76.   51cq24
73 the last regular season loss in 1998 was to the indians. it was 4-1 and all 4 runs were on an enrique wilson grand slam. crazy things happen, you don't have to apologize.
2007-06-26 17:50:52
77.   cult of basebaal


2007-06-26 17:51:55
78.   OldYanksFan
Wow... JD, Mats, Abreu and Cano are basically studs and make over $40m between them, and you guys rag out Mr. (2 for 2) Cairo?

Man... it's like picking on the crippled kid.

2007-06-26 17:53:31
79.   51cq24
78 it is very much like picking on the crippled kid. that's the point.
2007-06-26 17:56:31
80.   OldYanksFan
I have to say my pyramid worked. HA!
2007-06-26 17:57:07
81.   monkeypants
76 Thanks! But if I grind on Cairo, Torre, Damon, etc. every night, I don't mind eating a little crow for fun (hell, if I'm right it means bad things are happening!).
2007-06-26 17:58:07
82.   monkeypants
78 No, ragging on Damon is like picking on the crippled kid.
2007-06-26 17:59:31
83.   cult of basebaal
78 this isn't the olympics, we don't get extra credit for winning with degree of difficulty ... and joe playing cairo at 1st is like running marathons with weights on your feet ... you might be fine over short distances, but in the long run, you'll be staring at a lot of other people's asses
2007-06-26 18:01:00
84.   bartap74
82 These days, it's like picking on the crippled old man.
2007-06-26 18:01:24
85.   thelarmis
please have a nice, easy 1-2-3 inning
2007-06-26 18:04:48
86.   monkeypants
Lookit' Cairo on that rundown play--attaboy!

78 How's that? ; )

2007-06-26 18:05:02
87.   thelarmis
andy's WHIP is over 2 today. feh.
2007-06-26 18:06:37
88.   monkeypants
Tie game heading into the later innings. I wonder if Torre will go that relif pitcher they have out there--Rivera or something? Do ya' think he trusts the kid in a tie game?
2007-06-26 18:08:33
89.   thelarmis
atta boy, andy. he's gotta be moving up the ladder as far as most pickoffs in a career. i think langston and rogers are the tops, not positive...
2007-06-26 18:10:52
90.   thelarmis
well, i don't like the WHIP at 2 and only 2 k's, but i guess andy met the "quality start" qualifications w/ 6 innings < 3 runs. who's out for the 7th - assman?
2007-06-26 18:11:55
91.   Alvaro Espinoza
Is Markakis playing on the warning track?
2007-06-26 18:14:54
92.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
2007-06-26 18:15:12
93.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Guess not.
2007-06-26 18:17:11
94.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
2007-06-26 18:18:27
95.   monkeypants
See that big swing--inexcusable with less than two outs; that's just giving away an AB. No, wait, I thought that was A-Rod batting.
2007-06-26 18:19:57
96.   tommyl
Nice to know Miggy Mantle comes through with some winning baseball!
2007-06-26 18:20:10
97.   cult of basebaal
alright miggy, make me eat my words
2007-06-26 18:23:19
98.   cult of basebaal
well, at least it wasn't a double play ... c'mon damon, make monkeypants eat his words again
2007-06-26 18:23:54
99.   thelarmis
i hate man on 3rd < 2 outs not scoring equally as much as i hate giving out leadoff walks. bollocks.
2007-06-26 18:24:35
100.   monkeypants
98 Dude, your gameday is really lagging.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-06-26 18:25:06
101.   thelarmis
so who pitches the 7th?
2007-06-26 18:25:13
102.   cult of basebaal
the bad idea twins giveth and the bad idea twins taketh away ...
2007-06-26 18:25:57
103.   monkeypants
He looked safe, but still a great throw by Melky.
2007-06-26 18:28:45
104.   thelarmis
103 my gamecast is even slower. wha happend?
2007-06-26 18:30:03
105.   monkeypants
Second batter for the O's hit a single in the gap; Melhy cut it off and made a great throw; runner called out at second.
2007-06-26 18:31:49
106.   thelarmis
ooh, nice - thanks, monkeypants!
2007-06-26 18:31:57
107.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
I'm so friggin sick of not getting guys in from 3rd w/ less than 2 out.

Mr. GreenTea should have the whole team running laps around the field for an hour after the game everytime that sheet happens -- especially late in the game. Eff's sake.

2007-06-26 18:32:17
108.   cult of basebaal
105 awesome! it's like having a friend from the future!!!
2007-06-26 18:34:16
109.   cult of basebaal
well ... that didn't take long ... way to make 'em work, guys!
2007-06-26 18:34:56
110.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Well, that was an easy inning for Bradford. Did he even break a sweat?

Here's one for the future. O's score 1 in the bottom of the inning -- probably a leadoff walk coming around to score -- and we get shut down in the top of the 9th as easily as in the 8th and lose another.

2007-06-26 18:36:00
111.   tommyl
Oh fuck! Farnsworth?

Josh Phelps watch: 1-2 with a BB

2007-06-26 18:36:22
112.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
It's Farnsworth!@#$%@#%#$^$&$
2007-06-26 18:36:36
113.   Mattpat11
Damnit to hell.
2007-06-26 18:36:36
114.   monkeypants
110 How about this: Rivera again sits helplessly in the BP while some crappy pitcher is trotted out in the 8th, 9th, 10th etc. until the inning run scores for the O's.
2007-06-26 18:37:21
115.   monkeypants
111 Yeah, but he couldn't make that pretty scoop at first and struck out a lot.
2007-06-26 18:37:58
116.   Mattpat11
I despise Farnsworth.
2007-06-26 18:38:00
117.   cult of basebaal
jesus, is joe a robot? would it kill him to use mariano here for a couple of innings? i mean he hasn't pitched since friday and not much at all in the last 10 days ... sigh
2007-06-26 18:39:35
118.   monkeypants
117 You don't give Torre enough credit. He knows that after Rivera rusts for a week or ten days that you have go against the popular wisdom and use him for two innings in four or five run game. Sheesh, you guys.
2007-06-26 18:42:18
119.   thelarmis
i'm glad andy went 7. anybody but farns. this could get ugly quick. i wanna get back to .500 really bad...
2007-06-26 18:43:38
120.   ChrisS
I think it's time to jettison Farnsy and bring up the secret weapon known as Edwar Ramirez.

There's no reason the Yanks should be losing games because of the bullpen when the arms are there and Torre refuses to use them.

2007-06-26 18:45:19
121.   cult of basebaal
120 but what makes you think if we ditched worthless and brought up edwar, torre would actually use him? all it would mean is more EDSP and The Deuce
2007-06-26 18:45:51
122.   Mattpat11
Friends, we have joked about ugly baseball players. Taverez, Youkilis, Schmidt and so on and so forth.

But Jay Gibbons, good fucking lord.

2007-06-26 18:47:39
123.   monkeypants
Whew--escaped danger. Come on boys!
2007-06-26 18:48:14
124.   Mattpat11
Can we trade him now? His value will never be higher.
2007-06-26 18:48:36
125.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Well, Farnswacker got the job done, but . . .

he still needs to be left in the lowrises with with 50 large cash and 10 kilos of h for Omar to find . . . The Wire Bal-more reference.

2007-06-26 18:49:06
126.   cult of basebaal
122 especially his gameday picture, jesus, he's the poster-boy for slack-jawed, jug-eared, mouth-breathers ...
2007-06-26 18:49:13
127.   monkeypants
121 But Phillips and Basak would have someone new to talk to on the plane and help bring green tea to the clubhouse.
2007-06-26 18:49:29
128.   ChrisS
124 as long as Torre is included in the package.
2007-06-26 18:50:15
129.   monkeypants
125 Got the job done in that line drive base hit, line drive out, tough out down the line, K sorta way.
2007-06-26 18:51:38
130.   Mattpat11
122 And he was always a ridiculously ugly man. And then he decided to grow his bright red hair out.
2007-06-26 18:52:38
131.   monkeypants
Posada lead off walk--do you PR? Does Torre?

Actually, I would think about it except the bottom of the order is s brutal, I'm not sure the runner scores here.

2007-06-26 18:53:09
132.   tommyl
Winning baseball!
2007-06-26 18:53:17
133.   monkeypants
131 Nope, Torre goes with an even more inexplicable strategy. Good Lord.
2007-06-26 18:53:33
134.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
131 Well, that takes care of that problem.
2007-06-26 18:53:40
135.   bartap74
Can't say I agree with the bunt, particularly given who is coming up. Cano did .340 last year and he's a pretty good doubles hitter. Why not let him hit?
2007-06-26 18:54:11
136.   Max
That was a horrific bunt. He should have just caught the pitch and thrown it to second base himself to save the embarrassment.
2007-06-26 18:55:00
137.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Torre has Cano bunt there, but he couldn't have had Cairo effin squeeze earlier?
2007-06-26 18:55:00
138.   cult of basebaal
nothing better than the reliability of small ball, mmmkay?
2007-06-26 18:55:46
139.   monkeypants
It's really tough to bunt with Posada running, too. I mean, I guess they avoided the DP.

Then Melky walks. Let's hope that out doesn't come back to haunt this inning.

2007-06-26 18:56:18
140.   tommyl
Oh wait, I get it. Posada is slow, he was clogging the bases. We had to get rid of him. Its not just winning baseball, its Dusty Baker style!
2007-06-26 18:56:34
141.   Shaun P
Friends, that's why I hate the bunt. Posada walked. (And now Melky walked too!) Why take the bat out of Cano's hands?

I missed almost all of the SF games, and boy am I glad I did when I heard the highlights - and I called Torre's Jeff Weaver syndrome on Saturday as soon as I heard the game was tied going into extra innings. I'll bet I wasn't the only one.

2007-06-26 18:57:08
142.   tommyl
Wouldn't it be great if we had someone to PH for Miggy? or someone to play instead of him?

Chris Basak, come on down!

2007-06-26 18:59:03
143.   Mattpat11
Sorry I haven't been here to supply my usual charm. My dirty pleasure is pro wrestling, so I've been following that story most of the day. The game is really background noise.
2007-06-26 18:59:12
144.   cult of basebaal
142 ummm, again, that requires that joe would actually pinch hit for cairo given the chance
2007-06-26 18:59:16
145.   tommyl
More winning baseball!

And who wants to bet we see EDSP now?

2007-06-26 18:59:18
146.   monkeypants
142 They do--his name is Andy Phillips...or even perhaps better, Shelley Duncan.

Wow, that was hacktastical.

2007-06-26 18:59:27
147.   bartap74
"A big spot for Miquel Cairo"

Therein lies the problem with having a sub-mediocre player start at first for the highest paid team in baseball.

2007-06-26 18:59:57
148.   Mattpat11
142 I don't want Chris Basak hitting.
2007-06-26 19:00:02
149.   Shaun P
137 It's crazy. Torre loves the damn (nearly) useless sac bunt, but he NEVER uses the (almost always) wonderful squeeze play.

#$%()#$)$#)$()*()#$ Cairo. That's why you can't punt offense at 1B. That's why he doesn't belong in the job he has.

So incredibly frustrating.

2007-06-26 19:00:13
150.   bartap74
143 I hear you - I rather liked Benoit and the news of the last 24 hours has been hard to stomach.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-06-26 19:01:06
151.   Shaun P
145 Nice call.

148 I'd prefer if Chris Basak wasn't on the 40-man roster, much less the 25-man roster.

2007-06-26 19:01:16
152.   OldYanksFan
From Lohud: Tomorrow Torre bats Abreui 10th.
2007-06-26 19:01:59
153.   cult of basebaal
and MIGGY takes the LOB lead for this game, he's just such a cute scrappy little gnome, i wanna take him home and keep him on my nightstand
2007-06-26 19:03:01
154.   tommyl
Why are these two guys still in AAA?

Britton just pitched 2.1 scoreless innings today.

Shelly Duncan is currently batting:

.307/.393/.594 with 19 HR

Ok, I admit his track record isn't great but he's on pace to hit about 40 HR. And we keep trotting out Miggy, Villone and Myers. Its frustrating when there are better options there.

2007-06-26 19:04:44
155.   cult of basebaal
i'd love to have a press pass, just for one day, so i could go down into the locker room and call torre on half, just half, of the robotic, idiotic decision making he's displayed this year
2007-06-26 19:04:55
156.   monkeypants
154 Who cars if his track record isn't great. We've got a starting 1B who DOES have a track record (hint: it's definitiely not great). What have you got to lose?
2007-06-26 19:05:58
157.   ChrisS
153 as long as he's not starting at first anymore, whatever works.
2007-06-26 19:06:19
158.   Mattpat11
134 The track record is sort of shit. He tends to hit only when he's too old for the level But like I said, I'd rather try him and let him fail on his own merits than stick with Cairo or do the Andy Phillips experiment again
2007-06-26 19:06:21
159.   monkeypants
I wonder what Rivera thinks about in the ninth inning of a tiesd game as some other relief pitcher walks the opposition's leadoff batter?
2007-06-26 19:08:30
160.   tommyl
Oh and don't get me started on Edwar Ramirez. Who currently has an ERA of 0.76 and 41 Ks in 23.2 innings!

I mean, the trade deadline is coming up in a little over 4 weeks. Shouldn't we see if these guys can play before we trade them or others?

2007-06-26 19:08:30
161.   WeMissPaulie
I have a bad feeling about this.
2007-06-26 19:08:49
162.   yankz
159 "Gotta get those pictures from Cairo"
2007-06-26 19:09:16
163.   51cq24
is cashman solely responsible for the roster moves? do we know? at this point i can't argue if steinbrenner fires him, although i do think it would be a disaster.
2007-06-26 19:09:59
164.   tommyl
What pisses me off even more. Is that one or more of these guys may get called up. Play 2 games, fail to get a hit or pitch a bad inning and then Cairo/Villone/Farns will be back in there playing like crap again.

I'm glad Cairo has grit, the team can rub it on themselves to feel better when they lose game after game.

2007-06-26 19:10:06
165.   ChrisS
160 nah, let's just trade them for some hustle, grit, and some Eckiness.

Maybe we can package those guys for Jermaine Dye

2007-06-26 19:10:29
166.   ChrisS
160 nah, let's just trade them for some hustle, grit, and some Eckiness.

Maybe we can package those guys for Jermaine Dye

2007-06-26 19:11:25
167.   monkeypants
163 I am a bit of a Cashman apologist, but I suspect that Torre and the coaching staff have a good deal of say for in season "tactical" player moves. I have a hard time believing that the GM these days really says "these are the players you're using, dammit, so deal with it."
2007-06-26 19:11:28
168.   3rd gen yankee fan
I just had to stop by and mention what a truly AMAZING game this is, I'm completely stunned and AWED that the Yanks are playing so AMAZINGLY. There's just no other words for it.
2007-06-26 19:11:51
169.   51cq24
164 don't be silly. they won't get in a game for at least a month. the deadline will have almost passed.
2007-06-26 19:13:50
170.   51cq24
167 but doesn't cashman have the final say? when torre says "i want basak and phillips to sit on the bench, i think we should dfa phillips," shouldn't he be saying "you're fired"?
2007-06-26 19:13:59
171.   tommyl
Well here goes the game.

I'm sorry, but many of the suggestions I and others are making are not knee-jerk, this guy sucks because he struck out once or something, they are reasoned moves.

You have several players performing well at AAA. And several performing crappy at the MLB. So logic dictates we swap them and try, but no.

2007-06-26 19:14:25
172.   cult of basebaal
167 i agree, though it certainly seems that torre is being almost spiteful in his insistence on not trying to use some of the players cashman has brought up ...
2007-06-26 19:14:32
173.   WeMissPaulie
Aaarghhhh, thats the game....should have tossed to 2B
2007-06-26 19:14:52
174.   monkeypants
164 You mean like Phillips this year? The DFA--DFA--Phelps to call up Andy Phillips, who according to Torre "does more with the bat and the glove." That's Torre's quote, I'm not exaggerating. He goes 0-3 his first game, and he's gone. One start and he's buried.

Again, I am not saying Phillips is the answer. But why even bother calling up a player to use him that little.

Hey Hey--great play by EDSP!!

2007-06-26 19:15:02
175.   cult of basebaal
gameday mentioned an injury delay? what happened?
2007-06-26 19:15:08
176.   Mattpat11
170 No. He'd be right. The issue would be that we still don't have a first baseman. But he'd be clearly dead wood.
2007-06-26 19:15:26
177.   tommyl
172 Then you effin fire him. Seriously, you are basically saying he is hurting the team.
2007-06-26 19:15:34
178.   pistolpete
I think he wanted to make sure the ump knew he caught it. Plus he could have had the wind knocked out of him and didn't have the wherewithal to throw anywhere else...
2007-06-26 19:15:35
179.   WeMissPaulie
Proctor. Nothing.
2007-06-26 19:15:45
180.   Jim Dean
Why didn't the Captain say a fucking word there? He's standing on 2B and he says nothing?

Meanwhile A-Rod is screaming and Jorge is pointing.

2007-06-26 19:16:39
181.   Yankees Brasil
What happened?
2007-06-26 19:16:40
182.   jkay
Soon to be 4-13 in 1 run games. Torre is gone by the All-Star break.
2007-06-26 19:16:46
183.   WeMissPaulie
oh no
2007-06-26 19:16:51
184.   Jim Dean
175 Proctor's arm fell off.
2007-06-26 19:16:52
185.   Mattpat11
174 I agree. There was no reason to call AAAAndy up. But if you are going to, play him. He'll fail, but give him that chance.
2007-06-26 19:16:52
186.   monkeypants
170, 172 I'm not disagreeing.
2007-06-26 19:17:23
187.   Mattpat11
182 Lets be fair. It may not end up being a one run game. Oriole Park is small.
2007-06-26 19:17:24
188.   OldYanksFan
Does Mo come in now! Bases loaded...
2007-06-26 19:17:53
189.   WeMissPaulie
If we get out of this inning I'll kiss my dog
2007-06-26 19:18:11
190.   tommyl
Apologies for my language tonight guys. I'm just so damn frustrated at this point. Even if we win this game on an A-Rod blast, I'm pissed off. Its like watching lunacy.

Given A and B. B is somewhat unknown, A is clearly bad.

Oh and the OF is BACK. WTF?!

2007-06-26 19:18:20
191.   Mattpat11
Yankee bench is actually waving the outfield in. Could have used than on Saturday
2007-06-26 19:18:21
192.   WeMissPaulie
Why is Proctor still in there?
2007-06-26 19:18:22
193.   Jim Dean
181 Protor catches the popped up bunt with a dive off the mound. Patterson is two steps from third. Proctor holds his glove up until Patternson returns to 2B.
2007-06-26 19:18:40
194.   Marcus
Hernandez has been known to squeeze...
2007-06-26 19:18:53
195.   3rd gen yankee fan
189 French?
2007-06-26 19:19:00
196.   51cq24
uh this game is over he just got hit
2007-06-26 19:19:09
197.   pistolpete
Proctor must have money on the Orioles, it's the only explanation...
2007-06-26 19:19:26
198.   WeMissPaulie
Get Proctor outta there.
2007-06-26 19:19:41
199.   Jim Dean
189 Yanks get out of this, and you better give your dog tongue.
2007-06-26 19:20:03
200.   cult of basebaal
185 phillips is better than cairo, that's all that matters right now, journey of a thousands steps and such
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-06-26 19:21:04
201.   monkeypants
180 193 Not really Proctor's 'fault' on that pop-up, but wasn't that (non)play so perfect for this year?
2007-06-26 19:21:06
202.   WeMissPaulie
Please dont end like this.
2007-06-26 19:21:25
203.   tommyl
Oh I hope we walk in the winning run.
2007-06-26 19:21:34
204.   Hocakes
Bring on Edwar, Britton.
2007-06-26 19:21:34
205.   3rd gen yankee fan
It's a rich team that can leave the best closer in the game rotting on the bench!
2007-06-26 19:21:37
206.   Mattpat11
200 like I said, he's no good. But if you call him up for lord knows why, play him and let him fail.
2007-06-26 19:21:49
207.   ChrisS
Almost time for Myers, no?
2007-06-26 19:22:00
208.   OldYanksFan
199 Tongue is not enough
2007-06-26 19:22:08
209.   WeMissPaulie
Thats it. Lowest point of the season.
2007-06-26 19:22:27
210.   3rd gen yankee fan
Game over! YAY!!!!!!!!
2007-06-26 19:22:38
211.   Jim Dean
201 What? How long did he have to hold the ball for?

And that fucking blows. Great idea to have Cano bunt last inning.

Fi-re Tor-re. Fi-re Tor-re. Fi-re Tor-re.

2007-06-26 19:22:47
212.   monkeypants
What does Mo think?
2007-06-26 19:22:50
213.   51cq24
209 are you sure? it would take a huge turnaround for it not to get even lower
2007-06-26 19:22:51
214.   WeMissPaulie
Where the eff was Mariano?
2007-06-26 19:23:00
215.   OldYanksFan
Holy shit. I can't believe it. The Yankees have tumed into the 2002 Devil Rays.
2007-06-26 19:23:02
216.   Zack
Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse, well...

By far the worst so far. Sell the team, fire Joe, whatever, I can't watch this crap anymore

2007-06-26 19:23:09
217.   Yankees Brasil
We should have used Myers!!
2007-06-26 19:24:05
218.   cult of basebaal
211 seriously, it's long past time ... he's managing like he's fucking huffing glue in between innings
2007-06-26 19:24:08
219.   tommyl

We walk in the winning run, with Mo on the bench. Again.

Joe Torre needs to be fired. Not next month, not next week, right now. That is at least as bad as Grady Little sticking with Pedro.

Your team is tailspinning. You are tied. Do you go to the greatest reliever in history? No. Your chosen reliever basically walks the bases loaded, go to him now? No. You're saving him for when you take the lead in the top of 27th.

2007-06-26 19:24:10
220.   pistolpete
214 No sense wasting him in a spot like this - Mo's gotta rest up for the playoffs donchaknow...


2007-06-26 19:24:15
221.   Zack
I love to see two losses in a row by the BP with our best reliever sitting on the bench and our mighty offense unable to score at all...

When you look worse than the O's, its time for a firesale, or the best you can do...

2007-06-26 19:24:20
222.   OldYanksFan
3 walks? 3 WALKS? Unbelievable!
2007-06-26 19:24:27
223.   Marcus
216 Amen to that.
2007-06-26 19:24:33
224.   WeMissPaulie
213 I guess you're right....
2007-06-26 19:24:35
225.   Mattpat11

You know what? Fuck Scott Proctor. I don't care who "should have been in" He was put in a do or die situation and he fucking walked THREE MEN?

He's been doing this all year and I'm fucking sick of it.

2007-06-26 19:24:44
226.   JL25and3
Nice try! We'll get 'em next time!

Two, four, six, eight...

2007-06-26 19:24:44
227.   monkeypants
211 He did look like he was limping--I imagine he had the wind knocked out of him, so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. But IF he was hurt, he should have been pulled there.
2007-06-26 19:24:48
228.   yankz
I've made a decision. The Yankees control me, but I have no control over them. I'll still check the score every day and root like hell, but I'm not going to let them dictate my life and mood anymore.
2007-06-26 19:25:25
229.   51cq24
did anyone see how angry torre looked in the dugout there? what did he expect? the guy had already walked 2 guys and was clearly a little shaken up from that play. torre has to be fired, and it has to be immediately. no more excuses, no more credit for what happened years ago. this is it.
2007-06-26 19:25:40
230.   vockins
I think the team has moved beyond the "bad luck" analysis for these one run games.

Torre has to go.

2007-06-26 19:25:59
231.   tommyl
Prediction. Tomorrow we win 10-1. Mo pitches 2 innings to get some work in.
2007-06-26 19:27:31
232.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
219 It's not even the walking in the winning run -- it's the fact that that was not even the 2nd, but the 3rd friggin walk Proctor issued that inning . . .
2007-06-26 19:27:44
233.   ChrisS
Sigh, well hopefully, tickets will be cheap in September so I can say bye to Yankee Stadium ...

I was perfectly willing to give Joe the benefit of the doubt in April, with the injuries and all, but in July - something needs to be done.

Playoffs, schmayoffs, they should start rebuilding and hope for a .500 record.

2007-06-26 19:28:15
234.   vockins
"not much you can do when the relievers don't throw strikes," says Kay.

What this team needs is a once in a lifetime reliever, a sure fire HOF type guy!

2007-06-26 19:28:17
235.   51cq24
231 the probability of that happening is so high it's hardly funny
2007-06-26 19:28:35
236.   randym77
I don't understand why he didn't put Mo in. He's so freakin' push-button sometimes.
2007-06-26 19:30:16
237.   Jim Dean
MASN graphic - Orioles: 3-1 against the Yankees this season

That means: 30-42 against everyone else.

2007-06-26 19:30:24
238.   51cq24
we all know mo is sitting there the best there ever was. but it isn't even about that. it's about a guy loading the bases and getting hurt in the process, and still being left in.
2007-06-26 19:30:44
239.   Mattpat11
22 walks in 41 IP. And he's one of our late inning relievers.

Right up there with

Worthless 16 walks in 30 IP
Bruney 24 walks in 32 IP
NotRandy 27 walks in 37 IP.

Its easy to blame Torre for everything. But the Yankees have built one shitass bullpen. We have one reliever. At some point this was going to blow up in our faces.

2007-06-26 19:30:45
240.   3rd gen yankee fan
The sarcasm here is the only thing that's keeping me sane.
2007-06-26 19:31:07
241.   JL25and3
I'm also getting tired of hearing about how the other pitcher's throwing a great game against them. At some point this team has to start hitting major-league pitching with some consistency. The Elmer Fudd offense ("Be vewwy, vewwy quiet") just isn't going to cut it.
2007-06-26 19:34:39
242.   51cq24
it seems to me that the same mistake that torre is making (leaving guys in when he should know better) is being done at the next level by either cashman or steinbrenner. what are they waiting for? joe torre is done. he should have been fired last year.
2007-06-26 19:36:25
243.   cult of basebaal
g'nite all, c'ya tomorrow for more fun and winning baseball!
2007-06-26 19:36:29
244.   Zack
until this team does something major to address its massive issues, and more importantly, its utter-unwatchability, aka fire Torre and get rid of the dead weight, I refuse to watch anymore. Not that it matters.

And I swear to God, if Cashman/Stein go the seel the future by trading Camberlain/Kennedy/whoever for Dye/whoever, I will just end this relationship, I swear to God!

Damn it Yankees, I wish I knew how to quit you!

2007-06-26 19:36:41
245.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Well, at least the latest Sawx ace to emerge from their "stacked" system is pulling a Proctor in the first in Seattle -- 3 walks and a hit batter so far
2007-06-26 19:39:03
246.   KJC
I read about Torre's mismanaging the bullpen here quite often, but I couldn't believe what I just saw. Was Rivera unavailable tonight for some reason, or is Joe crazy?
2007-06-26 19:39:23
247.   OldYanksFan
239 Thank you. I can name a number of calls Torre made I disagree with. But if Torre makes the 'wrong' call for a bunt, and the player can't execute a bunt, I put the bad on the player.

Everyone in our PB, everyone in AAA and AA and A should be able to pitch an inning without giving up 3 walks. Mo can nopt be our only reliable pitcher (although he has been poor in 4+ games this season).

I would had Mo in with 1st and 2nd. I disagree with Torre's call. But Proctor blew it.

It's not too much to ask a pitcher to throw strikes, a player to bunt, or SOMEONE to get a hit with RISP.

2007-06-26 19:40:41
248.   Max
Pollyanna here has signed off. I'm guessing that if we lose one more game this series, Torre is gone by the end of the week. You could tell by the second batter that Proctor had nothing.

Time for the rebuilding to begin.

And yet a little part of me foolishly flashes back to the .500 records of the 2005 Indians and 2006 As around the ASB, and keeps stupidly thinking the Yanks can somehow pull off a similarly miraculous .700 level stretch of play in July and August. Then Sunday's lineup...and today's ninth inning...just deliver the kick to the nuts.

2007-06-26 19:42:33
249.   JL25and3
244 *...I will just end this relationship, I swear to God!

Damn it Yankees, I wish I knew how to quit you!*

No, you won't and you don't.

Somehow, it's easier if you're watching Pat Kelly and Alvaro Espinoza and Tim Leary and Wade Taylor. Those guys never disappointed me, because I had no expectations to begin with.

2007-06-26 19:42:48
250.   Mattpat11
242 I think Cashman should be held accountable for constructing a team this bad.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-06-26 19:46:37
251.   Chyll Will
244 Dammit, I just knew this was gonna devolve into a torrid romance novel/critically acclaimed film nobody ever heard of before/made most people forget Ang Lee directed "The Hulk" before the night was through...

241 Knuckles! There's an idea for your next cartoon, man! >;)

2007-06-26 19:47:53
252.   vockins
250 If Cash and Torre got dumped simultaneously, I'd be shocked, but I wouldn't complain.
2007-06-26 19:50:32
253.   Mattpat11
250 Cashman annoys me more for some reason. Because rightly or wrongly, I see a stubborn streak in Cashman that is hurting the team. He ignored the bench, ignored the bullpen, in the process keeping the horrendous Farnsworth for no reason, signed the hideous Stink for Christ knows why, not only kept Pavano but inserted him in the STARTING ROTATION and so on and so forth.
2007-06-26 19:52:54
254.   51cq24
250 i have to be honest. i thought this team was gonna be great. i had the best feeling i had had in a few years going into the season. but i wanted torre gone. and it became obvious very early that torre was not the right guy to be the manager. i do not think the team is bad. i honestly believe that this team would at least be close to the wildcard lead if a competent manager were making the calls. it seems like he makes multiple, glaring mistakes each game.

but then you have to wonder. if most of us (who aren't paid to do so) can see these mistakes so easily while they are happening, isn't cashman or someone else in the front office seeing them just as easily? and aren't they talking to joe and telling him what he is doing wrong and what he has to change? if they have, and he is continuing to make these errors, it is THEIR duty to fire him. if they haven't, they have neglected their duty to address it. either way, someone in the front office is making the mistake of leaving a known commodity in a position where he can ruin this team. at a certain point, you have to transfer the blame from the person actually making the mistakes to the people who are responsible for changing personnel when mistakes are made. that goes for joe, and it goes for his superiors, all the way to steinbrenner, who is apparently stubbornly waiting this season out so that he can have a great big "i told you so" for cashman at the end.

2007-06-26 19:55:57
255.   Mattpat11
254 We went into the year with no bench, no bullpen, a hideous first baseman and a starting rotation that contained Carl Pavano.
2007-06-26 19:59:16
256.   51cq24
254 we also went into the year with a ridiculous offense, 3 very good starters, and phil hughes. the bullpen was a question mark but i don't think you could have expected it to be this bad. the bench was a question mark also but i don't think you could have expected to have had to use it this much. i didn't expect pavano to be needed.
2007-06-26 19:59:56
257.   tommyl
Here is what I propose the Yankees do right now:

1. Trade Farnsworth. Let it be for some position prospects.

2. Trade or release Myers.

3. Bring up Britton

4. Bring up Ramirez.

5. Send Basak down. You have Cairo who can play all IF positions, and Phillips who can play all by SS in a pinch. Basak is superfluous.

6. Call up Shelly Duncan. DH him, let Phillips play first, or platoon him with Cairo.

7. DL Damon. Call up Kevin Reese ( I haven't thought this one through totally, it might be better to call someone else up).

8. DFA Nieves. Go sign any other backup catcher out there. They have to hit better than Nieves, who can't play defense anyways.

As for Torre, I'm less pissed now, but for reasons I've stated even before the season I think he needs to go. You have to let these kids play.

Look at Detroit. Awhile ago they called up a bunch of young, hard throwing relievers and most have panned out. Most every other team builds at least a bit from within. Our entire bullpen save for Mo and to a lesser extent Proctor are overrated veterans.

2007-06-26 20:01:07
258.   tommyl
257 And by right now, I mean all the moves I suggested besides the trades should be done by the time I read the paper in the morning.
2007-06-26 20:04:26
259.   Simone
The Yankees' priority should be trading Scott Proctor. If they can get a bag of balls for him, they are ahead of the game.
2007-06-26 20:07:16
260.   3rd gen yankee fan
254 This is why I see no possibility of us making the playoffs, unless some management changes are made. And even that is a stretch.
2007-06-26 20:08:31
261.   Mattpat11
256 I forgot to mention the lack of right handed power. We needed a right handed power bat so he signed Doug Mientkiewicz.

And the bullpen and specifically the bench may not have been an issue if he didn't break the bank on Kei Igawa. That was a move for the ages.

2007-06-26 20:09:30
262.   JeremyM
Even Abraham is taking Torre to task. "Is there a point to all this bunting? Chris Ray walks the first guy and you let him off the hook by giving up an out, even if it is at first base. Robinson Cano has not had a sacrifice all season. But on June 26 let's have him lay one down so .254-hitting Melky Cabrera can have a shot at a single. It makes no sense."
2007-06-26 20:14:27
263.   markp
There may be a silver lining to all of this-how much more will GS put up with before tossing both of them (BC and JT) out? Hopefully not much longer.
2007-06-26 20:16:48
264.   JL25and3
257 Wait to make the trades. The price will go up for the next few weeks. At that point, make every non-Panamanian reliever available.

259 I think you're being too harsh on Proctor. He can be an effective reliever, if not consistently lights-out. But he's being asked to carry a brutal load.

2007-06-26 20:18:59
265.   Chyll Will
252 Cash and Joe get dumped before or during the ASB; Stick Michael in charge, hands team to Donny Baseball, who leads team to a surprisingly respectable third place finish. Rubesteinbrenner issues proclamation of disappointment for the fans, ensures major changes are to come. Wheels and deals to bring Pinella in as new manager, who promptly fires Kerrigan as bullpen coach because of his former Boston ties, then fires Bowa because he "doesn't need more than one old geezer ready to ready to retire yesterday" in the clubhouse. Persuades Jorge to stay on hands and knees, co-signs for his and Mo's contract extension, builds monument for Jeter in Monument park and buys him a second baseman's glove, then hands A-Rod a big lollipop and shortstop position. Proceeds to to break every arm in the bullpen that doesn't belong to Mo so Stick is forced to find new relievers, which he does by promoting the entire staff at Trenton. Lou uses each member of the newly revamped bullpen for four pitches and then wonders out loud if Detroit is available for the upcoming West Coast swing. Stick is about to resign when he's suddenly fired by Rubensteinbrenner for thinking out of turn, then proceeds to sell off every player except A-Rod, Jeter, Jorge, Mo and Nieves (whom nobody wants), and restocks the team by purchasing the Long Island Ducks and renaming them the "Belly Full Of Guts"...

Are you with me so far? No? Good, because this is losing almost as much steam as the team. I've had more fun watching a lead-off squeeze-play... can't wait to see how Alex recaps this (I see the H-word already...)

2007-06-26 20:23:27
266.   tommyl
264 see what I said in 258. I agree with waiting on the trades, but the rest needs to be done.
2007-06-26 20:24:59
267.   monkeypants
262 Well finally.

As for the bunt, I know OldYankFan blames the plaers (or the organization for the players) because they can't execute a bunt 247. Now, I can spout statistics all night about how the bunt is a bad play when you have a man on first and no outs, but let's concede that a bunt might be the appropriate move. You cannot butn with Posada on first--he's slow as shit and a terrible baserunner. So, either you have to commit to the bunt and going for one run by PR (Thompson?), or you forget the bunt until you are in a tactically better situation. Once again, Torre made the decision to bunt in that exact configuaration, with a very slender chance for success--that's hist tactical blunder as mcuch as Cano's failure to execute.

In the same post 247 OYF asks for someone to get a hit with RISP--I agree, but here again is where having so many weak bats in the line-up hurt. The chances of any single player coming through increases when don't "carry" a defensive 1B and crippled DH because the rest of the offense is supposedly good. Cashman and Torre can't be blamed for the incredible shrinking Abreu and Matsui, but someone has got to take the fall for the 1B situation.

2007-06-26 20:33:30
268.   tommyl
At this point I'm just waiting for the COH and NoMaas posts. NoMaas might have had a heart attack though. So many awful moves in one game, hard to pick just a couple to write about.

BTW, what's with PeteAbe understanding the not using a closer in a tie game on the road theory? What is there to understand. Its a retarded theory. Most often you lose with your closer sitting on the bench.

2007-06-26 20:35:42
269.   Chyll Will
Damn, you guys are pissed. Glad I only read the game instead of watching or listening to it (and I didn't read the whole thing!) Relax folks, some good old fashioned street violence will ease the pain for now, trust me...
2007-06-26 20:38:55
270.   tommyl
269 Well, when you watch your team attempt to bunt over Posada, then leave Mo on the bench because Jeff Weaver worked out so well and Miggy Cairo fails to even sacrifice a run home you get um, upset.
2007-06-26 20:45:44
271.   Chyll Will
270 Yeah, that... well, would you like a copy of "The Shining" to lift your spirits a little? >;)
2007-06-26 20:53:03
272.   tommyl
271 I was thinking of going with my little sister's remedy. Watching Aliens and rooting against the humans.
2007-06-26 21:07:52
273.   51cq24
while we're clearly on the topic of who should replace joe torre, i just wanted to throw out one idea. i'm a big girardi fan and wanted him to replace joe over the winter. but over the last few months i've become a little wary of him and his total deference to torre. listening to all the announcers, one has really impressed me: john flaherty. he's the one who seems very smart, actually questions joe's stupid moves, always seems to know what he's talking about, and has no ego whatsoever. obviously that doesn't necessarily mean he'd be a good manager, and i don't even know if he's interested. but, like i said, i've been very impressed with him. i think he'd be great. still, it seems like anyone would be better than torre at this point.

this season is not yet lost. if logical moves are made, it can still be turned around. but logic seems to have lost the yankee organization. common sense has given way to absolute nonsense. those of you who make excuses for torre and just blame the pitchers should try to at least explain why some of his moves have been good. it isn't enough to say that the players shouldn't walk this guy or shouldn't strike out in this situation. they are facing opponents who are trying to win. joe torre is making decisions that are not directly resisted by an opponent. are there explanations for them? is there any logic?

2007-06-26 21:13:08
274.   Schteeve
241 You're getting tired of it? I've been tired of it since Game 3 of the ALDS last year. It's bullshit. Fuck tipping my cap to the other pitcher. Our hitters are getting gameplanned to death, and not adjusting to it. Not adjusting to anything.

And why would we expect them to adjust when they have a manager that simply refuses to use his closer on the road in the last inning of a tied game.

Follow the yellow brick road to Loser Town Joe!!!

Joe has to go.

2007-06-26 21:25:37
275.   monkeypants
From LoHud:

"I asked Torre directly about using Rivera and he said he didn't want do based on the 1.2 innings he had worked on Friday. It's good that he wants to protect Rivera's arm. But 20 pitches over nine days? I think he had two innings in him tonight."

Did Torre mean that? He couldn't pitch at all, or couldn't pitch in a non-save situation, because he pitched four days ago? Does that make any sense?

Mind boggling.

2007-06-26 22:48:32
276.   weeping for brunnhilde
Mock all you like, I don't want a bunch of strike-out artists on my team.
2007-06-26 23:38:46
277.   Zack
Are we at the point yet where its almost better to see the team tank and start anew than spend all season going hot and cold only to finish right around .500 and risk making some stupid trade? Obviously I don't nor would I ever root for the Yanks to lose, but on the other hand, what this team needs so so badly is a makeover...
2007-06-27 04:35:57
278.   OldYanksFan
Cano: RISP: BA=.207, OPS=.532, 2007 OPS=.716
Abreu: RISP: BA=.241, OPS=.667, 2007 OPS=.712
Damon: RISP: BA=.240, OPS=.770, 2007 OPS=.700
Melky: RISP: BA=.197, OPS=.496, 2007 OPS=.680
Avg:-------------BA=.221+/-, OPS=.702+/-
Icing on the Cake:
Mr Clutch, Matsui: RISP OPS: .783. 2007=.808

Cairo: RISP: BA=.261, OPS=.612, 2007 OPS=.614

Cairo (79 ABs, $750,000)
4 Studs(1017 ABs,$30,000,000)

And you guys think Cairo is killing this team?

2007-06-27 05:02:26
279.   monkeypants
278 OYF, thank you for demonstrating that even using the fluky small sample size of RISP, Cairo is STILL the worst player of all those you listed. Moreover, he is playing the least important defensive position besides DH (unlike Melky, who as a light hitting CF at least justifiable), and he now occupies a position that should be among the easiest to replace with at least a league average bat.

Yes, he is a significant part of the problem.

2007-06-27 05:15:59
280.   monkeypants
279 Let me rephrase. Cairo is not the problem. The problem is using a player in a position for which he is completely inadequate. The other guys at least have a track record that suggests they might (maybe even should) get better, while Cairo is living up to his hacktastical expectations. I don't blame Cairo for being Cairo, any more than one can blame Womack for being Womack or Enrique Wilson for being Enrique Wilson (although Cairo does seem to be a good bit more pleasant). I blame Cashamn for signing him knowing that Cairo will be Cairo and that Torre will be Torre, and I blame Torre for being Torre for his perverse tactical use of personnel.
2007-06-27 05:33:25
281.   tommyl
278 What exactly are you getting at? That Cairo is cheaper than Damon? Well I agree with you. Also, he is more expensive than Cano and Melky (which shows how your grouping of "studs" is quite selective, why not group Cairo then with the studs and Melky and Cano without?).

Compare Cairo to the current league average for 1B in any offensive category and you will see he is woefully inadequate. He may have "grit" and "pluck" but I'll take someone who can hit a sacrifice fly past the infield.

2007-06-27 05:40:41
282.   markp
Once the ump yells "play ball", how much money a player makes has zero to do with how much he's helping or hurting a team.
2007-06-27 05:51:12
283.   Jim Dean
279 280 281 You're wasting your time. OYF solidly occupies the mindset that the Yanks can "carry" a Cairo/Mghfdgfx if everyone else is doing their job. He argued that point in January. In March. In May. And he will be in July.

Back to last night which still irritates the shit out of me.

The only reason Torre doesn't pinch run Thompson for Jorge in the 9th is Nieves. That shows how pathetically this team is constructed AND managed. Tie game on the road, playing for one run. He bunts Cano (Fi-re Tor-re) with Jorge running (Fi-re Tor-re).


Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)
Fi-re Tor-re. (clap clap clap-clap-clap)

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