Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Rodriguez, Great; Yanks, Not so Much
2007-06-24 07:02
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

The Yankees nine game road trip against the Rockies, Giants and Orioles is not going well at all, as the Bombers have lost four of the first five games. Yesterday was most painful as Chien-Ming Wang and the Yankee pen could not hold a 4-1 lead. Alex Rodriguez, who has eight hits the first two games in San Francisco (and has reached base 10 times in 12 times up), absolutely blasted a shot to center field in the ninth inning to tie the game. But the Yankees could not nail down a victory. In the eleventh, relief pitcher Steve Kline worked around a double to Rodriguez, and got out of a bases loaded, one out jam, by striking out Hideki Matsui and then getting Robinson Cano to ground out. A bloop single against Scott Proctor in the thirteenth did the Bombers in, as the Giants won, 6-5.

Derek Jeter left the game early with a strained left hip flexor and is day-to-day.

Comments (404)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-06-24 07:29:10
1.   rsmith51
Why did Wang come out so early? 86 pitches!?!

I realize he gave up the long homer, but he could have finished the inning. It seems like every time I see Mike Myers face a LH, he either gives up a hit or a walk.

Letting Proctor hit???? Are you nuts?

Bunting Abreu with ARod on deck? How is that intelligent? What do you know, he hit a double.

No Mo? Did Joe not want to win?

Am I misinterpreting anything?

Did I miss anything?

One more thing...

(Not Joe) 17 hits and 5 walks and only 5 runs!

2007-06-24 07:47:19
2.   DarrenF
Alex, your headline made me laugh for some reason.

My gripe with Torre's managing style is that he doesn't seem to have a contingency plan. He empties his bullpen in the 7th and it's fine as long as nothing ever goes wrong. You end up with Proctor pitching three innings and even batting.

I read a recap of yesterday's game where it said that everybody expected the Yankees to win when Rodriguez hit the game-trying homerun. I never expected the Yankees to win. One reason is because I knew Mariano would never get into the game. But also because extra-inning games seem to go to the home team ... though I have no statistical proof of this.

I'm not sure why the Giants would get so much credit for continuing to play baseball. They're supposed to give up because an opponent hits a ninth-inning homerun?

2007-06-24 07:57:03
3.   yankz
1 Pete Abraham said his fingernail was acting up again.

If that is true, it appears to be a recurring problem. If that is true, and there's no way of fixing it, we can kiss October baseball goodbye.

2007-06-24 08:01:03
4.   OldYanksFan
Jeter running into outs all over the place? He's practically Torre's son. Can't Torre do anything? What the hell's the matter with Joe?

And one of our most reliable RBI guys, Matsui, striking out with bases loaded, one out. Can't Torre do anything? What the hell's the matter with Joe?

And not bringing in Mo (even though EDSP was pitching fine) just because he was the last guy in the BP, on the road, in an extra inning game. What the hell's the matter with Joe?

And Cairo can't make that play up-the-middle. A manager is supposed to motivate his players. What the hell's the matter with Joe?

And trying to move over a runner, with a guy who has been taking terrible swings of late, with your best player on deck, behind by one run? Has ANY manager EVER done that before? What the hell's the matter with Joe?

And just how many guys did Torre leave on base? Doesn't he want to win? No. Torre does NOT want to win. (We won't mention walking 3 batters in a critical situation).

What the hell's the matter with Joe Torre? Doesn't he know he's got 25 guys on this team waiting for him to come through?

2007-06-24 08:06:40
5.   Raf
Hope Jeter's playing today, lineup's awful short without him. If Cairo bats second, Torre may incur my displeasure...
2007-06-24 08:11:06
6.   OldYanksFan
Wnags fingernail was acting up again? Jesus!
What the hell's the matter with Torre!
2007-06-24 08:11:15
7.   yankz
I think it would be really funny if all players joined A-God and boycotted the HR Derby.
2007-06-24 08:13:37
8.   DarrenF
4 Of course the players deserve most of the blame for yesterday's game and the entire subpar season. On the other hand, what is Torre paid $7M to do? Just sit there and come up with funny nicknames?

His managerial moves yesterday weren't bad because they didn't work. They were bad because they were bad.

On a side note, I hope he's kidding when he says that Clemens didn't have time to warm up. Clemens could have been warming up for as long as he wanted. Torre was unaware that Proctor was due up?

2007-06-24 08:22:39
9.   yankz
6 Give it a break. Sure, a bunch of Yankees sucked yesterday. But you act as if he's never, ever at fault.
2007-06-24 08:38:30
10.   tommyl
3, 6 How about:

1. Not emptying your BP in the 6th inning?

2. Going to Mo in a tie game immediately. He pitches 2 innings and you still have Proctor in the pen. This is called using your best reliever before you lose.

3. How about not bunting Abreu in the 10th (11th?). Even if it succeeded that would have meant an IBB to A-Rod. So you give up an out and take the bat out of the hands of the best hitter in baseball.

There's more.

Look, no one is saying that with these moves the team would have won, but a managers job is to give his team the best chance of winning. Torre failed to do that.

2007-06-24 08:39:06
11.   tommyl
10 That should be emptying in the 7th inning, sorry.
2007-06-24 09:46:16
12.   OldYanksFan
9 Look, while I like Torre as our manager, and think very few could stand the heat of the NY/Steinbrenner kitchen, I know he is not a good tactician.

However, there is SOOOOO much we don't know, yet we are always crying for his head. When Wang was pulled the first time because of his fingernail, people here were screaming. Of course, we didn't KNOW there was a problem.

And it has happened many times. It's only because now we get some insider new from PeteAbe, that we can go 'Oh... gee...'.

Torre ain't a great manager, but he is at least THERE, on the field, talking to his players and coaches (and sometimes the FO).

I give Torre credit for what he does, which is keep our clubhouse a sane, professional, balanced place. I do NOT give him credit for winning 4 rings. The players did that.

At the same time, even with 'questionable' moves, it is the players that win or lose these games. I don't know for sure when what Toore does is bad or good, given that there is so much information I don't have. But I do know when we go 1 for 10 with RISP. I do know when we don't score with 2 men on and no out.

Torre plays a very minor role in these games. I am just tried of the tons of blame I hear here on a daily basis. It reminds me of when the press blamed ARod for loses when other guys left 10 LOB.

I'm sorry. I'm reacting because it smacks of scapegoating.

2007-06-24 10:01:31
13.   zakysdad1
4-12 in one run games. The worst in the majors. Tells me the bullpen sucks although yesterday you'd think with so many hits and errors they could have scored like 11 runs. Trade the entire bullpen to a contender for a young catcher. Move Posada to First base and throw in the towel for this season.
2007-06-24 10:03:52
14.   Max
12 I don't care for Torre's bullpen management, and he seems to leaving his NL roots further and further behind, based on some of his odd tactics (or lack of tactics) in interleague games lately. It seems like he used to be more savvy in these situations in years past, but that's just a feeling.

But I'm also tired about how when anything goes wrong, he's problem number 1. I guess it's to be expected when we've now lost 22 out of 28 games decided by 2 runs or less, but yesterday was on the players, AFAIK. All those batters coming up empty with runners left on base, and a guy who throws 96 and can't get one over the plate...those are the guys that aren't doing the job.

2007-06-24 10:14:19
15.   mehmattski
I wasn't able to watch the game yesterday, but as I was reading the game recap on, I came across how Scott Proctor was pitching in his third inning in the bottom of the tenth. And I thought, "well, that means Mo probably didn't pitch." Sure enough, clicking over to the box score I was right. And PeteAbe says that Clemens (?!?) was warming up in the bullpen, and not the best closer of all time. Completely predictable, and completely baffling.

There appear to be many many reasons why the Yankees lost the game. But running a setup man out there for his third inning with your closer still on the bench is obviously very wrong.

Meanwhile, seven of A-Rod's 28 homers have come in the ninth inning. I will now be taking written apologies from those who doubted him. HA!

2007-06-24 10:15:51
16.   Zack
I jsut hate opening the Times and other papers and reading that line that I feel I have read so many times before in so many situations "Mariano Rivera was being saved for a possible one inning save situation." AAARRRRGGGGGHHH!
2007-06-24 10:18:17
17.   Zack
Its becoming the A-Rod career tour. Every city, the announcers speculate on why they would love ot have A-Rod, and then A-Rod executes his audition above and beyond what anyone could expect, its just silly.

Let's put it this way: If A-Rod plays this way all year (doubtful), and the Yanks still area .500 team or so, does he get the mvp? The two possible aruments would be for Ordonez and the not a playoff team, but when you are talking about value, is there anyone who has done more for their team this year than A-Rod? Think of this team without him, and thats a scary thought...

2007-06-24 10:21:36
18.   monkeypants
12, 13, 14 Their pathetic record in close games suggests three things to me: 1] ineffective bullpen, 2] bad luck, 3] poor tactics by the manager (which will be accentuated in close games rather than blowouts). I suspect it's a lot of all three, so Torre should not be above at least some criticism.

13 If you're gonna hang the season, forgot Posada at 1B. Move him more and more into the DH spot, call up Shelley Duncan for 1B and give him a couple months to prove he is Matt Stairs (fluky late bloomer).

2007-06-24 10:24:21
19.   Mattpat11
I still want to know who the hell the outfield coach on the team is.
2007-06-24 10:25:54
20.   51cq24
12 it would be nice if the hitters could get a hit every time there are runners in scoring position. it would be nice if the pitchers could hold a lead. but there is an opposing team trying its best to keep those things from happening. on the other hand, joe torre's moves are DECISIONS, not at bats. when he makes a wrong decision, it is all on him, it isn't because the other team was better. it's because he made the wrong move. and he has made so many wrong moves over the years it's absurd. not just when they're losing. a bad move is a bad move, whether it works out or not. fine, wang had a fingernail problem so he had to be taken out. but that's one move. why would he bat proctor in the 12th inning when he had already pitched 2 innings? that's one of the worst moves i've seen this year. why would he keep his best pitcher on the bench and wait for a save situation that becomes increasingly unlikely as proctor pitches more and more? these are bad moves, not poor execution, and there's a very big difference.

17 arod is the most valuable player in the league this year, unless you define valuable in a misleading and incorrect way. value is value wherever that value is.

2007-06-24 10:26:11
21.   Jim Dean
I've now succumbed to the post-Ha realization:

Any team giving 5 AB's to Cairo at 1B doesn't deserve to win squat.

Even with the power of Ha!

I want Cashman's head.

2007-06-24 10:28:21
22.   weeping for brunnhilde
15 I hereby concede that I no longer doubt Alex Rodriguez. He's a different player and I'm thrilled of it.

It is still the case, however, that I find it agonizing to watch his ab when he's confused up there.

I never wanted him on the team and I'd have been pleased to see him go elsewhere but I must say, the guy's grown on me. Lo and behold, I've formed an emotional connection to him I never would have thought possible, perhaps precisely because he's struggled so mightily in the past.


2007-06-24 10:29:04
23.   yankz
19 They don't have one anymore after they let Mazilli go.
2007-06-24 10:30:59
24.   monkeypants
21 I suspect Torre is the one giving Cairo ABs at first base. But Cahman should be punished for 1] signing Minky and 2] even putting Cairo on the roster (he should know that Torre can't be trusted).
2007-06-24 10:31:05
25.   OldYanksFan
--------OPS ------ Last 7
Canoe- 0.736 --- .720
Melky- 0.684 ---- .985 (MELKY!!!!!)
Abreu- 0.719 --- .522
Damon- 0.687 -- .539
Matsui-- 0.829 -- .555
Cairo ------------ .710 (HOF HOF)
1Base (ugly)
ARod ------------ 1.727 (AGOD!)

MoRiv 4.23 era
Moose 5.10 era
Roger 4.86 era

2007-06-24 10:31:23
26.   yankz
If you believe VORP, Magglio's ahead of A-God.
2007-06-24 10:31:40
27.   yankz
Jeter and Posada are 11 and 12, FWIW.
2007-06-24 10:34:14
28.   Mattpat11
13 If we're going to scrap the season I'd much rather give that playing time to actual prospects than an experiment to see if Duncan is the exception to the rule.
2007-06-24 10:34:54
29.   monkeypants
7 My wife suggested the other day that all the teams in the league should just through slow meatballs over the plate to Bonds, to make a mockery of the so-called "March to History." Sort of an anti-boycott.
2007-06-24 10:35:23
30.   OldYanksFan
21 Please read 25 and tell me Cairo is the reason we are losing
2007-06-24 10:35:29
31.   monkeypants
28 Fair enough. What prosepct(s) did you have in mind?
2007-06-24 10:35:56
32.   Mattpat11
23 Perhaps we should remedy that. Maybe then Melky Cabrera wouldn't have been playing in San Jose last night.
2007-06-24 10:37:38
33.   51cq24
26 pretty hard to figure out why when you look at their numbers. when you put in defense it isn't all that close, is it? not that i've seen ordonez all that much, but his value as a rf can't be nearly what arod's has been as an excellent 3b.
2007-06-24 10:37:52
34.   yankz
And who exactly on the team can be traded and for what?
2007-06-24 10:37:54
35.   Count Zero
Yesterday was just painful to watch. If there's one thing that makes me start throwing things at the TV, it's the inability of a reliever to throw strikes. Watching Bruney walk someone with two men on and Bonds on deck was just excruciating. How do you get to the ML without being able to throw a fastball for a strike when you have to?!?!

The one shining light in this season has been watching A-Rod make a lot of people eat their words. He is having just about the most remarkable season I have ever seen. Too bad it looks like we're going to waste it and lose him at the end of the year.

2007-06-24 10:38:02
36.   mehmattski
31 The other Duncan's really the only 1B prospect in the system above A ball.
2007-06-24 10:38:39
37.   monkeypants
30 For this week he hasn't been the worst hitter on the team. Using him at 1B is still a disaster, and longer he is there, the more this will be exposed. I'm not going to be convinced otherwise, until I look up at the end of the season, 300 or 400 ABs later, and Cairo is sporting an OPS of .750 or .800.
2007-06-24 10:40:19
38.   51cq24
29 is that like when you're losing in a game and start to give up so you can be like "well i wan't even trying"? in an era when many hitters and pitchers alike were on performance enhancing drugs, bonds was the best. whether you can compare him to hank aaron is another story, but at least for the time that i've been watching baseball, he's been the best. let's not make a mockery of that.
2007-06-24 10:40:53
39.   Mattpat11
30I'll never understand the "well, everyone else is supposed to be good, so they should cover up this hideous bat" argument. I didn't understand it with Enrique Wilson. I didn't understand it with Bubba Crosby. I didn't under stand it with Andy Phillips. I didn't understand it with Mink the Stink. Putting a player who is going to give you the offensive equivalent of a season wide slump into a batting order removes the luxury of occasional slumps from everyone else.
2007-06-24 10:41:55
40.   Mattpat11
36 Ech. Well scratch that. Call up Shelley, let him fail on his own merits and get it over with.
2007-06-24 10:42:35
41.   monkeypants
36 The problem with playing Duncan is that he isn't even hitting in the minors, so I'm not what it proves to bring him into the majors and expect to him make the adjustment. His almost certain failure will not prove anything one way or the other. S. Dunca, on the other hand, as proven he can hit at AAA--the only thing left to prove is if can make the next adjustment or if he is at best a AAAA player.

If E. Duncan had actually any sort of real track record in the minors, I would agree with you. But this season might be the perfect time to go the other way and throw all the AAAA players against the wall and see if any stick.

2007-06-24 10:43:15
42.   51cq24
39 did you hear when michael kay called enrique a "big part of the yankee team" in a recent game?
2007-06-24 10:44:00
43.   Mattpat11
42 Well, physically, he was a large man.
2007-06-24 10:47:55
44.   51cq24
43 the closest he ever came to helping the yankees was when he almost fell on his way home on the knoblauch play in game 2 of the 98 alcs
2007-06-24 10:48:17
45.   matt nokes forever
39 I remember some guy named Rey Ordonez who was so much fun to watch at SS, but made Wil Nieves look like Ted Williams at the plate. Found his way out of baseball pretty quick because of it, too. Even Omar Vizquel, who usually flirts with the Mendoza line for half the season, can come up with a hit or two in the right situation. The "defensive catalyst" argument never seems to last. I'll take Adam Dunn, who hasn't even played a game at first yet this season, striking out 5,000 times a year over Cairo.
2007-06-24 10:48:52
46.   monkeypants
38 This whole generation has made a mockery of the game, at least in terms of the historic value of teh numbers. But worse than that, announcers still ooh and ahh every time anothr obvious steroid freak smacks another ball over the fence in another bandbox bal park. And worse than that, the league (and the networks) subject me to a barrage of clips and ads and crawlers and sound bites playing up how this or that steroid freak will ecclipse some other record. To champion records with counting stats that have fundamentally perverted by this generation is a mockery of history; it is farse.

So, give Bonds the MVP and vote him into the HOF for being the best of generation. But celebrate his inevitable record, which is an insult ot Hank Aaron's accomplishments. No way.

2007-06-24 10:50:07
47.   Jim Dean
30 In a 1 run loss Cairo went 0 for 5 as the 1B (the only starter without a hit). It's a absolute fuckin disgrace that he's on the team let alone the starting 1B.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for the moves you said Cashman was making before the season.

Read and understand 39.

2007-06-24 10:50:15
48.   Mattpat11
46 Someone wasn't listening to Ken Singleton the other night
2007-06-24 10:50:22
49.   matt nokes forever
44 And by making sure Jeter would be in the lineup 160 times during the season even if he had two broken legs because it was better than the Enrique alternative.
2007-06-24 10:51:30
50.   monkeypants
48 What did he say?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-06-24 10:51:40
51.   51cq24
46 and who exactly is an obvious steroid freak? giambi? sheffield? matt lawton? arod? clemens? pedro? mariano? bernie williams?
2007-06-24 10:53:19
52.   Jim Dean
37 Or look at:

Miguel Cairo:
2005: 64 OPS+
2006: 59 OPS+
2007: 63 OPS+

Career: 75 OPS+

The guy belongs nowhere near a major league roster. Instead, he's starting game after game for the NY Yankees.

2007-06-24 10:54:45
53.   monkeypants
51 Come on now, I'm not going to play this game.
2007-06-24 10:54:47
54.   OldYanksFan
Magglio: .381 .457 .653 1.110--- That's some scary numbers.

37 Look... I agree it's a bummer having Cairo at 1st. But there ate 6 starting, namebrand 1st basemen in MLB with sub .750 OPS. We also know Cairo is the weakest MLB hitter on our team. But he hasn't been terrible, runs well, has played great D. So considering we are 'stuck' with him for now, it hasn't been bad. I would say he is the LEAST of our current problems.

If you look at the 2007 OPS in 25, we are missing over .400 pts from what would be average for these guys. And we are missing Giambi.

Think how far below .500 we would be without ARod.

2007-06-24 10:55:11
55.   Mattpat11
50 He stopped just short of calling Bonds a cheating, two timing, gassed to the gills tax cheat that should be strung up.

Well, not quite. But Kay was beating around the bush about whether players respect Bonds and whether they consider the record tainted and Singleton said, IIRC, "I absolutely consider it tainted and I don't appreciate the way he has done this at all"

2007-06-24 10:55:27
56.   RIYank
I know Mo should pitch more in critical situations, but I think Joe was correct in leaving Proctor in for the 13th. The away team needs two innings when their taking the field with the game tied. Mo had pitched the day before and, I believe, would not have been very effective for a second inning. Maybe Clemens should have entered the game, but as the bottom of the 13th began, one inning of Proctor and one of Rivera looked to me like the best option.
(And of course Proctor pitched well -- the last two hits of the game were lucky, weak hits.)
2007-06-24 10:58:01
57.   Mattpat11
54 I'd consider intentionally having a really bad hitter start at first high on the list of our problems. It puts more pressure on everyone else to make up for the lack of production.

And that counts for when Phillips starts as well. And when The Stink comes back. He irritates me more than the other two for some reason. Possibly because he seems to think he's good.

2007-06-24 10:59:30
58.   monkeypants
56 Agreed, to a point. Rivera would only have been available for one inning because Torre burned him for two innings the day before, in a game where the team had a four run lead at the start of the eighth inning and relief pitchers had 2 ABs. So, Torre helped create his limited options yesterday with some other head scratchers the day before.
2007-06-24 11:00:07
59.   Jim Dean
Miguel Cairo at 1B:

2006: 87 RATE
2007: 92 RATE

But that's "great D"!

2007-06-24 11:01:06
60.   Jim Dean
57 You're wasting your time. But thanks for trying.
2007-06-24 11:02:39
61.   51cq24
53 you started the game. the point is you can either scrap everything that has happened since the mid 80s or accept it. no one knows who was on steroids and who wasn't. baseball should have stopped it a long time ago, but they didn't. and you can come up with plenty of reasons why stats from certain periods shouldn't be counted. when babe ruth played, only white players were allowed in the league. pitchers only had 2 pitches that were probably not nearly as good as they are now. in the 60s and 70s foreign-born players were rare. and now it isn't just steroids that are performance-enhancers. how about reconstructive surgery? should we stop counting all the stats of pitchers after tommy john surgery because in the past they would have had to retire? i'm not saying steroids should be allowed, but it's arbitrary and unfair to target players for them, especially just to target certain players. instead of caring so much about career records throughout the years, we should care about how good the players who we have seen are. people are smart enough to know the differences between eras.
2007-06-24 11:06:46
62.   monkeypants
57 "And that counts for when Phillips starts as well. And when The Stink comes back. He irritates me more than the other two for some reason. Possibly because he seems to think he's good."

We disagree a lot, but I totally agree on this. First, I mad at Cashman for signing him in the first place, since it proves that things really haven't changed in Yankeeland. Second, I a nad at Torre for sticking with him despite the preseason and regular season results. Third, I am mad at Minky who, as you say, seems indignant that he's not treated like a HOFer. Fourth, I am angry at all the talking heads and journalists who lap up his defensive reputation while giving him a free pass for his atrocious hitting.

2007-06-24 11:11:17
63.   OldYanksFan
47 Initally, we would have Stink at 1st, and Giambi there for 30 games. Giambi is injured. Stink is injured. Early on (like last year) I wanted JD moved to 1st, and the Yankees are for it. Now JD is injured.

I liked Phelps bat, but he was scary in the field. I don't know why, but Jetes and ARod often throw eratically, so having good D at first was a benefit.

So we have 3 1st basemen injured and one gone. Cairo at 1st is triage, plain and simple. No one wants him there, but our team is bleeding. My only point is he is a lousy hitter who happens to be doing an acceptable job, and playing good D.

We can not expect to lose both Giambi and JD and be uneffected. Last year, when ShefSui went down, everyone stepped up. When Abreu came aboard, he was great.

We need .850 from Abreu and Mats, .800 from Cano, and .750 from Melky to even have a chance. We can't have 2 major injuries and have 4 guys underperforming and win.

Again... Cairo is a problem... but by far, we have many greater problems.

2007-06-24 11:15:29
64.   monkeypants
61 Thank you, you just made my point for me. The differences between eras, especially with the offensive numbers of certain counting stats in the last 20 years, are so great as to render records broken as meaningless. So I agree with you--I don't give a rats ass that Barry and his pharmacy are going to charge past Hank Aaron. I have always said that he was the best player of his era by far; I just see no reason why we should celebrate his obliteration of some record by playing under fundamentally different circumstances. So, if the only way to get rid of the fan fare is to speed the process, I'm all for it.

The "game" I referred to was the relativistic 'who is obviously on steroids' gambit. I have been imbued with a certain amount of intelligence and human reason, and I think I can draw fair conclusions from external obsrvation. When a player doubles in size, starts hitting HRs and historic rates--far higher than earlier in his career, has historically phenominal seasons in his late thirties, is particularly cagey about accusations, is strongly implicated in the whole Balco scene...well, I just draw conclusions.

2007-06-24 11:15:55
65.   Jim Dean
Miguel Cairo at 1B:

2006: 87 RATE
2007: 92 RATE

That's not the difference between "great" and "good" - That's "below average" D.

57 See. There's really no hope.

2007-06-24 11:20:14
66.   monkeypants
63 But Cairo is the easiest problem to solve, and so he is the most irritating. There is nothing much a team can do about an underperforming play (like Abreu) other than hope he comes around to his career levels. In extreme case maybe you make a move. And an injury to a harder to replace position (catcher, SS, CF) can be crippling. But it should be relatively easy to find some league average (or even better) hitter in AAA or around the league to play 1B. To give as many ABs to Cairo at this position suggests acquiesence on teh part of the team, and that is inexcusable.
2007-06-24 11:27:43
67.   Jim Dean
66 Thank god for the sense talkers around here. Otherwise, I'd really lose my fucking mind.

I think if Cairo still has the 1B job after the All-star break I'm going into full-swing fantanking mode. Just so they'll fire Cashman and Torre.

Promote Oppenheimer and hire whoever to manage the team. Re-sign Jorge and Mo to silly contracts and they may just stay competitive.

Tony Womack and Terrence Long were bad. But two years of Cairo as the first guy off the bench takes the cake.

2007-06-24 11:29:01
68.   51cq24
64 i agree, and sometimes it is obvious. but my point is that sometimes it's not at all obvious, and we can't just assume that only the obvious guys were on steroids. and i think a big thing is that a lot of the pitchers facing them were also on steroids. as to the fanfare, the guy has hit 750 home runs. it's a lot, whether you want to call it more or less impressive than hank. personally, i think hank aaron is probably the best hitter of all time, but i never saw him play so what the hell do i know?
2007-06-24 11:34:49
69.   matt nokes forever
67 I want Cairo out as much as the next guy, but right now too many teams are still deluding themselves into thinking they have a shot at the playoffs b/c of the wild card. I just don't see any worthwhile trades presenting themselves until mid-July when some teams start to realize they suck and need to tear it down.
2007-06-24 11:37:15
70.   yankz
I'm with you all WRT to Cairo at 1B. It's a huge mistake and I'm sure they could've done better. I just don't know who.
2007-06-24 11:40:53
71.   Jim Dean
69 Shelly Duncan deserves a shot before Cairo. Probably Eric Duncan too.

The real problem though is Cashman went into the season with a 1B of Mfhsdj, nothing on the farm, and a bench of Cairo, Nieves, Phelps, and Melky.

A month ago go out and get a Carlos Pena or Chris Carter.

2007-06-24 11:41:06
72.   matt nokes forever
70 Thats the thing... we know they screwed up, they know they screwed up, but the problem is that there isn't anyone ready in AAA (or AA even) and there isn't anything on the market. So its either play Cairo there until some trade possibility opens up, or move Posada to first and catch Nieves everyday. Seriously, what's the other option?
2007-06-24 11:42:40
73.   Jim Dean
70 Who?

How about:

Any One.


Some Body.


A Pulse.

2007-06-24 11:47:07
74.   yankz
73 The only person mentioned so far has been Shelley Duncan, who obviously would be an upgrade.
2007-06-24 11:47:42
75.   matt nokes forever
71 I'll give you S.Duncan. I didn't realize he was hitting around .300 with an OBP in the .400 ballpark. I think he's a bit strikeout prone however (66 in 247 ABs).

But E.Duncan (.224 avg, .140 avg over the last week and half) couldn't buy a hit in AAA, so why would we assume he could contribute for the big league club?

2007-06-24 11:49:12
76.   matt nokes forever
75 But then again, I would welcome a trade for Dunn, so obviously strikeouts are my biggest worry.
2007-06-24 11:51:22
77.   Jim Dean
74 Even then, I refuse to believe there's nothing out there:

Trade Sean Henn for Carlos Pena.

Trade Eric Duncan for Chris Carter.

How can folks consistently think "Cashman is trying but there's nothing out there" and yet not realize he hasn't been trying for a legit 1B for at least three years.

Shit, Tony Clark would have been a upgrade before the season started. Carlos Pena they let go last year in favor of Andy Phillips.

2007-06-24 11:51:33
78.   OldYanksFan
Aaron was a great player, but in a timeframe with Mantle, Mays, Musial and Clemente, he was not talked about a lot.

When you talk of counting stats, Aaron played 3298 games. Thats 21 years of 157 games/yr. So he was able to average 36 HRs/yr, and put up the numbers he did. While he posted some great and amazing numbers, his ability to play so long, and play well even in his last years, is what allowed him to do what he did.

He had a lifetime OPS of .930, and strange as it sounds, may have been the most under-rating player in history.

However, when you talk about great HR hitters, you have to consider ABs/HR. So where is Aaron on that list?

Wanna guess?
(I'm waiting)
37th (thirty seventh).
Some Better HR hitters per AB are

Jay Buhner, Troy Glaus, Adam Dunn, Manny, ARod, Piazza, Our boy Giambi, the Strawman, Big Papi, and of course, Ron Kittle

Bonds is 3rd on the list, the Babe is 2nd, and on top by far... Mark McGwire, the most dangerous HR hitter of all time.

2007-06-24 11:55:45
79.   monkeypants
68 I see what you're saying. I guess I am bothered by the fanfare because I am an historian by trade. To celebrate a specific HR (756) as the culminating event in what MLB has chosen to call the "March to History" lends that event an histroical importance, or at least it's an attempt to do so. By drawing such attention to this event, MLB is making an implicit comparison between Aaron (and his achievements) and Bonds, and as well it is an implicit assertion of the event's significance. I reject that 756, in this context, is a specifically significant event, thus I reject the fanfare.

So I agree, 750 HRs sure is a lot of HRs. But I resent being subjected to the attention this forthcoming and inevitable event is getting, because I deny its historical significance.

2007-06-24 12:07:04
80.   yankz
77 I see no way there's any truth to the Henn for Pena rumor.

And why in A-Rod's name would the D'Backs trade a player with a .922 career MiL OPS and a career 1.062 ML OPS for Eric Duncan?!

Pena didn't exactly tear it up in Columbus last year. Yankees cut him, then Boston cut him. Nobody (experts included) saw Pena slugging this well this year, and I doubt anybody sees him keeping it up.

And Clark wasn't a FA before the year. Unless you have a ludicrous trade proposal Cash should've done?

Look, I agree that Cash dropped the ball on 1B by signing Mink. But expecting him to pull off deals even a Jedi couldn't is just unfair.

2007-06-24 12:08:14
81.   yankz
Was Clark injured or something last year? He played only 79 games and was dreadful.
2007-06-24 12:09:42
82.   mehmattski
Yankee fans who were dismayed by the Yanks inability to hit Dustin McGowan might want to check out the Jays-Rockies game right now.
2007-06-24 12:12:02
83.   matt nokes forever
82 No-no through 8 full innings, rite?
2007-06-24 12:14:11
84.   RIYank
Possible BoSox-ChiSox trade: Buehrle for prospects. Buehrle would re-up for a five year contract. (Heard on ESPN radio.)
2007-06-24 12:15:09
85.   RIYank
83 Broken up in the ninth!
2007-06-24 12:15:28
86.   yankz
83 Jinx.
2007-06-24 12:15:39
87.   matt nokes forever
84 That's comforting.
2007-06-24 12:15:58
88.   matt nokes forever
86 And damn proud of it.
2007-06-24 12:16:03
89.   yankz
84 "(Heard on ESPN radio.) "

So, some moron on the radio made it up?

2007-06-24 12:19:30
90.   Jim Dean
80 "even a Jedi couldn't"

Dude, you're high. This notion that "Cashman is trying really hard but there's nothing out there" is patently absurd. Three years now they haven't had a legit 1B. In all that time, there's nothing that could have been done, huh? And even now?

Why not Pena for Henn? One they got for nothing - the other is a 26 yo LHP. Shit, it would be a dumb trade for the Yanks but when your starting 1B is Miguel Cairo there aren't exactly choices.

Meanwhile, besides that they should have gotten at least Carter in the Unit deal, Duncan is two years younger and the Dbacks have no place for Carter on the ML team.

Look, I'm not saying that these are the only deals - not by a long stretch.

I just don't take as evidence that Cashman doing nothing = nothing being out there. You know, sice it's been three years and all.

2007-06-24 12:22:32
91.   yankz
90 Thanks for telling me I'm high. How's this? You're a repetitive tool, and though I could respond to your comment by restating what I already did, I won't.
2007-06-24 12:22:36
92.   Jim Dean
BTW: In Columbus, Pena hit:

.260 .370 .454 with 19 HR's in 381 AB's

I'd give my left nut for a Yankee 1B to hit that poorly this year.

2007-06-24 12:23:41
93.   Jim Dean
91 No X-mas card for you this year!
2007-06-24 12:23:55
94.   RIYank
89 I think they were passing it on from a newspaper. Contract negotiations between the White Sox and Mr. "I have an 'h' somewhere in my name but you will never remember where it goes" had broken down.
2007-06-24 12:25:24
95.   yankz
94 Dude, come on, everyone knows how to spell Buerleh.
2007-06-24 12:26:27
96.   matt nokes forever
90 The only thing about the last two years (not this year, so no excuse for the Minky/Phelps/Phillips experiment) is that the Yankees weren't ready to tell Jason Giambi "You are a DH. That is all that you are. You are legally required to leave your glove at home. Hit the baseball. Then sit back down in the dugout." So with Giambi working at first base, Cash wasn't really looking for a solid 1B to anchor the infield. He was looking for a platoon guy. This year he screwed up and has gotten exposed for it. But I can't kill him for the last two seasons when the Yankees were humoring Giambi.
2007-06-24 12:26:51
97.   RIYank
E's a good pitzer. I wonder wat prospects Boston will give up. And 'ow muc dat contract extension will be for.
2007-06-24 12:28:41
98.   weeping for brunnhilde
91 yankz, you've got something wrong: Jim's not a repetitive tool, I am. I'm the President of the Miggy For-Eva Fanclub, didn't you know?

(An yes, I do receive kickbacks, ladies and germs--I may be a tool, but I'm certainly not high.)

2007-06-24 12:31:07
99.   matt nokes forever
98 Do you guys have jackets?
2007-06-24 12:31:46
100.   yankz
98 Hey, don't forget the Hideki Must Go The Other Way Club!
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-06-24 12:33:22
101.   Jim Dean
Last time Giambi played more than 92 games at 1B?


in Oakland.

2002 = 92 of 155
2003 = 85 of 156
2004 = 47 of 80
2005 = 78 of 139
2006 = 68 of 139

So, Cashman had three years (and all of 2004) to plan for 2005, 2006, and 2007, even for that platoon guy?

Well, he still hasn't found him.

2007-06-24 12:37:31
102.   Eirias
I am a big fan of soccer (football), but dear God, this Gold Cup final between Mexico and the US is boring.


2007-06-24 12:41:24
103.   Jim Dean
BTW: What's not to like about Buehrle?

Career ERA+ = 122

Averages 220 IP a year.

Great trade for the Red Sox if it's true, especially since he's a LHP and well the Yanks can't hit LHP.

I just hope they had to give up Lester and Buchholz and Ellsbury.

2007-06-24 12:42:03
104.   Eirias
That Simpsons sketch on soccer has never been truer.

Halfback passes to the center, back to the wing, back to the center, center holds it, holds it, holds it...

2007-06-24 12:45:51
105.   mehmattski
The people who can't appreciate a 0-0 soccer match are the same people who can't appreciate a pitchers' duel.
2007-06-24 12:48:26
106.   RIYank
103 Those seem to be the names mentioned -- at least their positions were mentioned.
It also depends on the money, though. The Red Sox are reported to be happy with what Bhuhrhleigh was asking for from Chicago.
2007-06-24 12:50:00
107.   Eirias
105 I appreciate 0-0 soccer matches. I do not appreciate this 0-0 soccer match.
2007-06-24 12:50:46
108.   Eirias
Sopcast is an amazing program, though.
2007-06-24 12:51:25
109.   RIYank
Nil-nil haters rejoice!
2007-06-24 12:51:36
110.   Jim Dean
I'm going to throw up:


2007-06-24 12:53:00
111.   Eirias
Oh, Howard.
2007-06-24 12:54:01
112.   RIYank
110 Uh.
We'll have really good pinch hitters?
2007-06-24 12:56:06
113.   Jim Dean
112 When Moose goes four innings?
2007-06-24 12:56:21
114.   Eirias
112 We did learn the importance of pinch hitters last night, didn't we?
2007-06-24 12:57:20
115.   Bama Yankee
112 Good point. Yesterday's game was painful to watch as the bull pen and the bench emptied. As I watched Proctor bat I was reminded of the old Latin phrase:
"Post Phelps ergo Proctor hack"

Here's to a better result today...

Let's go Yankees.

2007-06-24 12:57:35
116.   Max
The unrelenting re-hashing out of our first baseman situation (and Cashman's failures) is far more boring than any 0-0 match in any sport.
2007-06-24 12:57:43
117.   RIYank
113 Come on, you're the one who always complains about not having a good bench. So, now we have a good bench and you're still complaining?
2007-06-24 12:58:16
118.   matt nokes forever
110 Hi, my name is Melky Cabrera, and I am on an island. I am surrounded by the impassable seas of Cairo on one side and the waters of reserves/pitchers on the other. Please someone throw me a raft.
2007-06-24 12:58:19
119.   OldYanksFan
90 Funny... some teams looking for a 'legit' 1st baseman might have been very happy with Jason Giambi.
2007-06-24 12:58:32
120.   Jim Dean
116 Thanks for sharing!
2007-06-24 12:59:24
121.   Jim Dean
117 Thank you for giving me a smile.
2007-06-24 12:59:57
122.   matt nokes forever
116 For the record, nothing is more boring than soccer.
2007-06-24 13:00:35
123.   Jim Dean
119 Uh, Giambi hasn't been a 1B since 2001.
2007-06-24 13:01:44
124.   mehmattski
Old Timers' Day for the Giants?
2007-06-24 13:02:33
125.   matt nokes forever
124 Every day is Old Timers' Day with their lineup.
2007-06-24 13:03:48
126.   OldYanksFan
Can't we all just get along?
2007-06-24 13:04:09
127.   RIYank
Yeah, reunion. 1962?
2007-06-24 13:05:05
128.   matt nokes forever
127 Vizquel was on that team?
2007-06-24 13:06:30
129.   RIYank
127 Julio Franco.
2007-06-24 13:06:55
130.   mehmattski
Watching today's game is going to be weird, with Kuiper and Krukow calling it. I played a lot of EA Sports' MVP Baseball. I can't wait to hear if Krukow does indeed say "big boy" all the time and if his voice cracks while saying it, like in the game.

Hey, with Cairo hitting second, I have to find some excitement.

2007-06-24 13:09:22
131.   3rd gen yankee fan
Okay, all the other crap aside, the 1962 reunion is pretty cool. Lon Simmons, who announced Game 7 for the Giants in 1962, will be joining the KNBR radio guys in the booth.
2007-06-24 13:10:07
132.   Mattpat11
Holy crap. Look at that lineup.
2007-06-24 13:10:47
133.   JL25and3
I'm willing to bet that no team playing today has a worse lineup than the Yankees. Cabrera leading off, Cairo second, AND KT, Nieves and a pitcher?
2007-06-24 13:10:56
134.   RIYank
Oh, good, we're really working his pitch count.
2007-06-24 13:11:21
135.   mehmattski
Wow, wait to be patient, guys.
2007-06-24 13:11:43
136.   matt nokes forever
133 And Torre said Proctor was available today to pinch hit.
2007-06-24 13:12:30
137.   matt nokes forever
D.J.'s definently hurting... looked off on those cuts at 88 mph fastballs.
2007-06-24 13:12:48
138.   RIYank
134 135 Oh, TOO slow, mehmattski, too slow.
2007-06-24 13:13:10
139.   Mattpat11
136 Better than Basak. And maybe Phillips
2007-06-24 13:13:40
140.   Jim Dean
133 I will say this:

How is it that the Yanks couldn't find a place for Thompson on this year's team.

Career .891 OPS (40 AB)
RH hitter

Oh, right, they were carrying two 1B and a DH to start the season.

2007-06-24 13:14:43
141.   mehmattski
133 KC's lineup of: DeJesus, Gathright, Teahen, Gordon, Costa, German, Buck, Pena, and a pitcher?
2007-06-24 13:15:02
142.   RIYank
Actually, I think our line-up is better than the Giants' today. I'll bet it's better than the White Sox' and, um... Oakland's.
2007-06-24 13:17:03
143.   seamus
i'm glad to see thompson play. but, the same day that nieves?
2007-06-24 13:18:28
144.   Mattpat11
If nothing else this year, I'd really like to see Mussina finish strong
2007-06-24 13:20:29
145.   mehmattski
143 It's not like its hard to improve over Abreu the last week or so.
2007-06-24 13:20:35
146.   RIYank
144 That would be nice. I'd like to see him pitch eight innings today. Your ambition may be more realistic.
2007-06-24 13:21:21
147.   matt nokes forever
142 And apparantly the Rockies... 1 hit and it came in the ninth against a Blue Jay pitcher not named Halliday.
2007-06-24 13:22:17
148.   Mattpat11
As much as I like Jorge, I sort of think there has to be something to this thing with Mussina. He's not the first guy to want to throw to someone else, and its not like the list contains the dregs of the league. Johnson, and IIRC, Cone was on there as well. I thought I remembered a period where Pettitte was throwing to the backup every time, but obviously that's not true.
2007-06-24 13:23:12
149.   RIYank
145 But raking this month in general, OPS 1.040.
2007-06-24 13:24:15
150.   seamus
145 abreu can best himself more likely than thompson. I'm a Thompson fan, but having a mediocre week isn't a big deal.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-06-24 13:26:33
151.   rbj
What's wrong with the FSN audio feed on EI?
2007-06-24 13:26:58
152.   Mattpat11
Kay is saying he's rooting for a long top of the first. Is there a reason Richardson can't stay as long as he has stories to tell?
2007-06-24 13:29:17
153.   matt nokes forever
152 Why do I have this image in my head of Kay shaking his fist and screaming, "Damn you, undisciplined Cano, for cutting my time with Richardson shorter b/c of your pathetic at bat!"
2007-06-24 13:30:45
154.   mehmattski
151 I'm getting it too. Video skips out as well.

152 Now, if Bronx Banter were around back in the day, Bobby Richardson would probably get the brunt of the criticism. How could the Yankees run out a guy with a lifetime OPS+ of 77?!?

2007-06-24 13:32:55
155.   Mattpat11
You're not funny Barry
2007-06-24 13:33:45
156.   monkeypants
154 Well, if Richardson were playing this year, the light-hitting middle infielder might very well find himself starting at 1B.
2007-06-24 13:34:10
157.   matt nokes forever
Nice catch, Wil. Way to drop strike three.
2007-06-24 13:34:31
158.   Mattpat11
Nieves sucks.
2007-06-24 13:36:29
159.   Mattpat11
Oh for Christ sakes.
2007-06-24 13:36:44
160.   matt nokes forever
That's like letting Cecil Fielder steal on you. Nice job all around, Moose and Wil.
2007-06-24 13:37:26
161.   rbj
Ah, now the audio's cleared up.
2007-06-24 13:37:29
162.   RIYank
2007-06-24 13:37:41
163.   Mattpat11
160 Mussina threw a changeup. I can't blame them for that. I probably would have liked Nieves to reach second on the throw, but whatever.
2007-06-24 13:38:03
164.   Mattpat11
Game is falling apart.
2007-06-24 13:38:47
165.   RIYank
Time for a triple-play. (Sorry about the soccer interlude.)
2007-06-24 13:39:16
166.   matt nokes forever
163 The throw would have been perfect... if there was a cutoff man.

Can you blame Mousse for the walk to useless Klesko, though?

2007-06-24 13:39:27
167.   Mattpat11
Did we win?
2007-06-24 13:40:15
168.   Eirias
Off the post!
2007-06-24 13:40:28
169.   Mattpat11
Yes, lets run and hide from pedro Feliz.
2007-06-24 13:40:44
170.   Eirias
167 Not yet.
2007-06-24 13:41:21
171.   Mattpat11
2007-06-24 13:42:17
172.   Mattpat11
What the hell was that Wil?
2007-06-24 13:42:28
173.   RIYank
167 Took the lead. 168 Unbelievable!
2007-06-24 13:43:05
174.   RIYank
Ugh. Soccer is more fun that this baseball game.
2007-06-24 13:43:30
175.   Mattpat11
Wil Nieves needs to be waived after this game.

And put Mussina on the DL. This sucks.

2007-06-24 13:44:49
176.   Mattpat11
Where the hell was that?
2007-06-24 13:46:35
177.   Mattpat11
2007-06-24 13:47:23
178.   matt nokes forever
Good thing Mousse has only thrown 40+ pitches so far... he should make it into the third inning, barely.
2007-06-24 13:47:30
179.   RIYank
Someone give Mattpat11 a drink.
2007-06-24 13:47:54
180.   Jim Dean
156 Thanks for that.
2007-06-24 13:48:00
181.   matt nokes forever
177 Even pitchers can hit 80 mph, flat fastballs.
2007-06-24 13:49:16
182.   Jim Dean
178 I called the fourth 113. I'm standing by that.
2007-06-24 13:50:15
183.   JL25and3
Come on, guys, stop being so rough on Mussina. I mean, the home plate ump made a call he didn't like. How do you expect someone to pitch when that kind of thing happens?
2007-06-24 13:50:30
184.   williamnyy23
Today's lineup might be one of the worst in the Torre era. If the Giants pitch around Arod, this 2-0 deficit might hold up.
2007-06-24 13:51:19
185.   Mattpat11
So lets review. Wil Nieves can't be bothered to catch a pitch right down the middle that could have been strike three. He throws the ball about 85 feet when BARRY BONDS is running. On a sac fly when BARRY BONDS is tagging, he forgets to catch the ball.

And he's on a team that hoped to contend.

2007-06-24 13:51:52
186.   JL25and3
Kay: "Wil Nieves flirting with extra bases." Hey, I can flirt with Jessica Biel, but I'm still not getting to first base.
2007-06-24 13:52:11
187.   monkeypants
Mussina's career BA higher that Nieves'!
2007-06-24 13:52:27
188.   matt nokes forever
Looks like they're pitching around Mousse (who's a lefty batter by the way? wtf!)
2007-06-24 13:53:08
189.   Mattpat11
This lineup is an embarrassment.
2007-06-24 13:53:24
190.   matt nokes forever
Melky wanted to make sure that Moose didn't get any more tired by making sure he didn't have to run the bases.
2007-06-24 13:53:26
191.   monkeypants
185 I bet he can also play a little 1B.

186 Now that's funny.

2007-06-24 13:53:36
192.   williamnyy23
185 I also didn't like his swinging at a 3-1 pitch.

I also don't like Melky swinging at the first pitch after a 3-1 count to Nieves and walk to Mussina. That's completely unacceptable.

2007-06-24 13:53:37
193.   Mattpat11
188 Pitchers often bat the other way to protect the throwing arm.
2007-06-24 13:54:41
194.   monkeypants
188 I thought a lot of pitchers (especially in the AL) bat with their offhand to protect their pitching hand. At least that's what I heard once.
2007-06-24 13:54:48
195.   Mattpat11
Lets see what whacky hijinks Wil does this inning. Maybe he'll run out there without a mask.
2007-06-24 13:57:22
196.   matt nokes forever
195 Michael Kay: "And Wil Nieves just turned around and kicked the home plate umpire in the sack! Wow! That's the most contact he's made all year!"
2007-06-24 13:57:43
197.   Mattpat11
Well, that was a horrendous throw from Cano.
2007-06-24 13:58:27
198.   matt nokes forever
194 Actually, that makes sense. Good to know.
2007-06-24 13:58:44
199.   Mattpat11
Do you think anyone would notice if we switched him with Mel Nieves?
2007-06-24 13:59:09
200.   Mattpat11
Oh good. There's Vizquel's hit for the week.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-06-24 13:59:24
201.   RIYank
Soccer match over. 2-1, Estados Unidos. (I'm watching the Spanish station.)
2007-06-24 14:00:07
202.   Mattpat11
I hate them all.
2007-06-24 14:00:38
203.   Mattpat11
We need a line out DP now.
2007-06-24 14:00:46
204.   Jim Dean
Hey, guys, there's WAY too much negativity here.

Best to turn those frowns upside down.

2007-06-24 14:00:55
205.   williamnyy23
Wow...Mussina isn't even concentrating on this game. The Yankees effort on this trip has been poor, so it's no suprise the results aren't there.
2007-06-24 14:01:07
206.   Mattpat11
204 No.
2007-06-24 14:02:19
207.   Mattpat11
I'd rather hit him.
2007-06-24 14:02:32
208.   RIYank
This is stupid. Unless they honestly think they can't score three runs this game, walking Bonds is stupid.
2007-06-24 14:02:46
209.   Mattpat11
Now I wouldn't count these pitches in his count though.
2007-06-24 14:02:50
210.   Jim Dean
206 "If Joe Torre didn't walk him here he should be fired"

Joe - Don't walk him!

2007-06-24 14:03:10
211.   mehmattski
That little dip thing Moose does from the stretch has annoyed me since his Oriole years.
2007-06-24 14:03:40
212.   3rd gen yankee fan
Getting the 27th chicken might be a good omen for the Yanks?
2007-06-24 14:03:55
213.   Jim Dean
211 Would you mind kicking him in the cunt for me?
2007-06-24 14:04:12
214.   Mattpat11
Kay is praising my school.
2007-06-24 14:04:40
215.   RIYank
Walking Bonds was brilliant.
2007-06-24 14:05:59
216.   Mattpat11
215 I think i may be behind. I don't like what you're implying
2007-06-24 14:09:46
217.   Mattpat11
And here's Cairo. Such a letdown.
2007-06-24 14:13:32
218.   RIYank
I can't believe we have one hit so far.
2007-06-24 14:14:10
219.   monkeypants
218 I can't believe we have a hit.
2007-06-24 14:14:55
220.   RIYank
I guess it all depends on your perspective.
2007-06-24 14:19:00
221.   williamnyy23
With tomorrow's day off, sitting both Posada and Abreu seems foolish.
2007-06-24 14:19:24
222.   Mattpat11
2007-06-24 14:20:34
223.   RIYank
We could use a BUC.
2007-06-24 14:20:52
224.   williamnyy23
Again Moose doesn't hold the runner and again Nieves makes a horrible throw. Why Wil Nieves is still on the team is beyond me. He is a HUGE black mark on Cashman's resume.
2007-06-24 14:24:39
225.   rsmith51
224 While a utility infielder with NO power is hitting .233 and playing 1B regularly, I really don't think a BUC is real high on the priority list.
2007-06-24 14:25:55
226.   cult of basebaal
221 wow ... i just logged in and saw our starting lineup today and all i can say is ... wow

i'm so glad i didn't make the effort to go up to SF and catch a game this weekend, either day would have left me red with rage

seriously, torre's patented "house money" lineups are infuriating, but trotting out a "house money" lineup when you're 1-4 on a road trip AND you've got a motherfucking off day tomorrow is too much ...

2007-06-24 14:26:42
227.   williamnyy23
Was that awful or what?
2007-06-24 14:30:17
228.   3rd gen yankee fan
We better get back to little league mindset, as it's so, so, appropriate right now.
2007-06-24 14:31:24
229.   Yankees Brasil
It's too easy to steal a base against the yankees
2007-06-24 14:33:35
230.   williamnyy23
After Cano, the Yankees don't even have an average hitter up until Jeter.
2007-06-24 14:34:12
231.   JL25and3
Nieves isn't in there for his bat, he's there because he's a good defensive catcher...wait...or is he in there for his bat?
2007-06-24 14:35:32
232.   JL25and3
228 Good eye, Kevin! A walk's as good as a hit!
2007-06-24 14:35:56
233.   williamnyy23
While I think the handling of the pitching staff was a demerit in Torre's column early on, Cashman has to answer to why guys like Cairo, Nieves, Thomson, et al. are on this team.
2007-06-24 14:37:00
234.   williamnyy23
Nieves should DFA'ed DURING this game.
2007-06-24 14:37:20
235.   JL25and3
OK, nice try, Wil! Good cut! You'll get 'em next time!
2007-06-24 14:37:37
236.   monkeypants
Strike outs are bad.
2007-06-24 14:38:04
237.   Jim Dean
233 Thompson doesn't deserve to get lumped with that crew. But if you need more guys for list, how about Womack, Long, and Erickson (and we have to stop there because Cashman wasn't in "control" before 2005).
2007-06-24 14:38:19
238.   cult of basebaal
jesus, the more i just sit here and think about this lineup, the angrier and angrier i'm getting ... seriously, this lineup is a fucking insult to everyone who paid money to watch this game
2007-06-24 14:40:04
239.   JL25and3
I'm sticking by my earlier comment. Never mind the Royals - at least they've got the excuse of being the Royals. This is the worst lineup in the major leagues today.
2007-06-24 14:41:21
240.   Jim Dean
PeteAbe should have his opinion pen revoked:

"Wil Nieves still has a job because he works well with pitchers, especially Mike Mussina."

So let me get this straight: BUC's who can't hit are said to be "defensive specialists". Then that's proven false, they're on the team because they work "well with pitchers".

2007-06-24 14:41:47
241.   williamnyy23
237Long and Erickson were stop gap solutions and Womack was the fastest man Joe Torre ever managed. There's no reason for this team to have NO bench.
2007-06-24 14:43:37
242.   williamnyy23
240 If Nieves works well with Moose, why didn't he remind him about not serving up runs to the 8th place hitter with 2 outs in the NL? The reason Nieves is still on the team is because Cashman has failed miserably.
2007-06-24 14:43:52
243.   cult of basebaal
241 not that i think torre is capable of managing a decent bench decently, in any case
2007-06-24 14:44:07
244.   williamnyy23
Billy Martin would have walked to the mound and pulled Mussina AND Nieves after that one.
2007-06-24 14:45:48
245.   williamnyy23
After the game, I would love a reporter to ask Torre : "Did to expect that lineup to score many runs"?
2007-06-24 14:48:08
246.   williamnyy23
Wow...that's embarassing, but sums up the entire week.
2007-06-24 14:49:42
247.   JL25and3
Almost, Chris! Way to hustle out there!
2007-06-24 14:50:23
248.   cult of basebaal
ladies and gentlemen, now playing ... The Chris Basak Experience!

Next! Puppet Show!

2007-06-24 14:51:21
249.   3rd gen yankee fan
Ok I'm sorry, but that was really funny.
2007-06-24 14:53:06
250.   williamnyy23
Let's go Jeter...don't give away this gift.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-06-24 14:57:33
251.   Eirias
Alright, good situation.
2007-06-24 14:59:21
252.   yankz
122 True dat.

Well, there is curling.

2007-06-24 15:06:21
253.   cult of basebaal
damn ... all that for all that ... too bad
2007-06-24 15:06:25
254.   williamnyy23
Arod has become so much of the team's offense that when he doesn't get a big hit, I wonder if the team gets as deflated as I do.
2007-06-24 15:10:19
255.   cult of basebaal
254 ugh ... that may have been our last, bestest chance
2007-06-24 15:12:56
256.   cult of basebaal
2007-06-24 15:14:48
257.   williamnyy23
I was a Bruney fan early on, but we may be starting to see why the D-back's just dumped. He simply can't throw strikes. Walking the Giants' Wil Nieves is brutal. Except for Proctor and Mo, I really hope no one else pops up in the 2008 pen.

Where is Chris Britton?

2007-06-24 15:16:55
258.   monkeypants
257 Wasn't he sent down to make room for Phillips or Basak or someone else who never plays? Ho-hum, I lose track.
2007-06-24 15:17:32
259.   williamnyy23
258 I know where is...what I meant was: "Where is he"!!
2007-06-24 15:18:26
260.   cult of basebaal
257 The Make a Wish Kid??? down in AAA, trying to find a bellyfull of guts, which he needs before Torre will let him pitch
2007-06-24 15:19:27
261.   cult of basebaal
awesome! It's an appearance by The Deuce ... my own personal hell is now complete!
2007-06-24 15:20:48
262.   williamnyy23
The BB total out of the bullpen are commical. The bullpen is really the greatest weakness on the team.
2007-06-24 15:27:08
263.   OldYanksFan
262 True. Myers has the team's 2nd best ERA.
2007-06-24 15:27:16
264.   monkeypants
If Damon PH for Thomson, does that mean h goes into RF? If not, then Abreu has to go into the field. If that's the case, why not PH Abreu? And what evidence is there that Damon can even hit these days?
2007-06-24 15:28:13
265.   monkeypants
Aha, Johnny proves me wrong!
2007-06-24 15:28:18
266.   3rd gen yankee fan
Good f'in questions, all.
2007-06-24 15:31:26
267.   Yankees Brasil
why damon??
2007-06-24 15:31:27
268.   OldYanksFan
Why try and pull a low outside pitch?
2007-06-24 15:32:02
269.   Eirias
Anger... rising...
2007-06-24 15:32:35
270.   OldYanksFan
Man. More crappy managing.
2007-06-24 15:33:14
271.   pistolpete
I think I just witnessed the reason we're missing the playoffs for the first time in 13 years...
2007-06-24 15:33:31
272.   monkeypants
I blame A-Rod for not hitting a HR every single AB. That's just about the only way this team will score.
2007-06-24 15:33:32
273.   Yankees Brasil
This team is horrible
2007-06-24 15:33:49
274.   williamnyy23
You watch Damon run the bases like a rookie and Abreu flail at two pitches and you just have to shake your head. The Yankees look like a mediocre team that just happens to have a few great players.
2007-06-24 15:34:48
275.   Yankees Brasil
Next year is going to be worse without A-Rod
2007-06-24 15:35:57
276.   cult of basebaal
wow ... at least we're making sure we get our money's worth out of roger ...
2007-06-24 15:36:06
277.   monkeypants
Didn't the Yankees used to have a reliever named Rivera or something?
2007-06-24 15:36:59
278.   pistolpete
I say Bonds pops up to CF...
2007-06-24 15:37:00
279.   cult of basebaal
275 yeah, if we don't resign alex, there's a good chance we're duking it out with baltimore and tampa bay in the basement ... hell, even with alex, we've got real problems
2007-06-24 15:38:01
280.   pistolpete
So THAT was a strike?
2007-06-24 15:38:03
281.   Chyll Will
I take it things are not going well?
2007-06-24 15:38:03
282.   cult of basebaal
277 he's like a werewolf or vampire, he can only appear under the right conditions
2007-06-24 15:38:45
283.   OldYanksFan
Is it possible that Cash has given up on this year? I wouldn't think so but...
2007-06-24 15:39:10
284.   williamnyy23
275 Without Arod this year, the Yankees are at least 10 games under .500. On would expect about the same next season.
2007-06-24 15:40:15
285.   Yankees Brasil
Yankees getting killed by Bonds' blazing speed!
2007-06-24 15:40:24
286.   williamnyy23
Cano should make that play...I have a feeling the Yankees packed their bags for Baltimore sometime shortly after last game's debacle. This game week has been an complete embarassment to the entire organization.
2007-06-24 15:41:36
287.   Chyll Will
283 I suspect he's waiting for the trade deadline to see what shakes loose. He seems to make better deals right before and right after...
2007-06-24 15:41:51
288.   cult of basebaal
284 i'd actually expect worse, i can see this falling apart completely
2007-06-24 15:42:17
289.   Yankees Brasil
287 I'm not sure this team can wait..
2007-06-24 15:43:36
290.   monkeypants
Well, this game has started to tumble toward its inevitable conclusion. Time to make dinner; maybe I'll check back later.
2007-06-24 15:44:00
291.   cult of basebaal
on the other hand, i'll suffer through a season or two of playing rookies (while collecting high draft picks) rather than watch another collection of aging mercenaries bumble about listlessly
2007-06-24 15:44:10
292.   rbj
Imagine if the Yankees scored about 3-4 runs this inning and the bullpens holds up. Roger would get win #350.

Check that, how about Imagine if the Yankees scored.

2007-06-24 15:46:33
293.   williamnyy23
283 I think Cashman pretty much made his bed in the offseason...a poor bullpen, no depth/bench, a roll of the dice with 4-5 starters...I guess we really shouldn't be suprised. The Yankees look like what they are: a .500 team.

The division is over. The wild card is a long shot. If Cashman believes he will survive a non-playoff season, he probably should be looking to sell rather than buy.

2007-06-24 15:47:43
294.   cult of basebaal
awesome! i love miggy cairo!
2007-06-24 15:47:56
295.   JL25and3
277 I was thinking the same thing, and cursing the cult of the Closer. How can you lose 5 of 6 while leaving your best reliever - best by a ridiculously wide margin - sitting in the bullpen the entire time?
2007-06-24 15:48:07
296.   Yankees Brasil
You can't seriously expect to win batting Cairo on the 2-hole
2007-06-24 15:48:38
297.   Chyll Will
289 Neither am I. Still, I'm also not certain they can get enough of what they need this season unless they either make some lucky waiver trades or take on some significant dough. And in that, Cashman would have to admit his plan from the off-season was a complete failure...
2007-06-24 15:50:04
298.   cult of basebaal
283 question is, what they hell do we have that other teams would want?

farnsworth? myers? mussina? abreu? giambi? cairo?

it ain't pretty, friends, not at all

2007-06-24 15:51:00
299.   williamnyy23
291 That approach might take more than one season or two though...the Yankees have NO prospects at any infield position and only Tabata in the OF. We know where the organization's depth at catcher stands. The only way the Yankees will be successful over the next 3-4 years is if the young pitching comes through and the Yankees sign the right mercenaries. If Arod opts out, that makes things all the more difficult. If Cano and Cabrera aren't able to play to 2006 levels, things look pretty bleak.
2007-06-24 15:52:29
300.   cult of basebaal
282 speaking of only appearing in the right circumstances ... it's the 8th inning everybody ... HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERE'S KYLE!!!!
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-06-24 15:53:58
301.   williamnyy23
298 I'm sure an NL team would take Farnsworth. Abreu has trade value. Other than that, you're probably right. There aren't attractive players to trade.
2007-06-24 15:54:03
302.   OldYanksFan
Was Bonds on the Giants when this stadium was build? What's with that right field? It's really deep and then has a high wall. Was there some logic to the design?
2007-06-24 15:55:54
303.   Jim Dean
293 Hey, at least they got Sanchez, Whelan, Claggett, Ohlendorf, Jackson, and the Alberto. That group they've rebuilt their depth of career minor leaguers.
2007-06-24 15:57:01
304.   Yankees Brasil
are we back under .500??
2007-06-24 15:57:23
305.   williamnyy23
Listening to Kay in panic mode brings me back to the dicussion we had during the Colorado series...this Yankees offense has 4-5 below average hitters on a daily basis (and some well below average). Basically the team is Posada and Jeter getting a lot of hits and Arod having a ridiculous season. That wont work over the long haul.
2007-06-24 15:57:29
306.   OldYanksFan
2007-06-24 15:58:20
307.   williamnyy23
PATHETIC...this has been an unacceptable effort in a week of poor efforts. The Giants fans are chanting Yankees suck, and they are right.
2007-06-24 15:59:30
308.   rbj
307 They are right, but they are also classless.
2007-06-24 15:59:33
309.   cult of basebaal
299 i'd think it would take a few seasons before the drafts would start to pay off, at which point hopefully the young pitching we've got right now (which is ready to start coming up to the bigs and being good) will be leading the way for the position players ... but a plan like that takes an owner and organization that's willing to have patience

which i just don't see ... if cashman gets fired, i see the tampa crew back in the saddle, i see a return to bigname free agent signings that have slowly dragged us down in the last 5 years, a movement away from using our resources in the draft, a return to the never quite good enough years between 1981 and 1995

i don't believe (and neither does cashman from what i can see) that you can build a sustained winning team primarily out of free agent parts

2007-06-24 16:00:18
310.   Chyll Will
305 Wouldn't it be fair to assume that the wide majority of teams have at least 4-5 below-average hitters?
2007-06-24 16:00:22
311.   williamnyy23
Now it's beyond pathetic...this game is a disgrace. Is anyone accountable?
2007-06-24 16:01:04
312.   cult of basebaal
306 you're right ... dump him in the bay
2007-06-24 16:01:17
313.   OldYanksFan
Break out the clown suits...
2007-06-24 16:02:27
314.   Jim Dean
299 Since folks seem to forget, there's nowhere for this team to improve except 1B and the bullpen. Same as the last three years.

C - Jorge: They better damn well re-sign him.
2B - Cano: ain't going anywhere
SS - Jeter: ditto
3B - A-Rod: better pray not
LF - Matsui: another 2 years on his contract
CF - Damon: ditto
RF - Abreu: Who's out there that would be better? Dye? Jones? Hunter?
DH - Giambi: One more year

So that leaves 1B. Cashman? Hello, Cashman?

Oh, and Moose is back next year too. Pettitte should be. After that, it's the young pitching.

But maybe if they bring back Vizcaino, Villone, and Myers, there will be no need to promote Britton or Edwar.

2007-06-24 16:02:53
315.   cult of basebaal
310 the good ones? i doubt it? and we don't have below-average hitters, we've got replacement level hitters

301 abreu only has trade value if he's hitting ... which he ain't again

2007-06-24 16:03:50
316.   williamnyy23
310 Probably...but not the good ones. The Yankees have become one of the wide majority, which, I guess is exactly my point.
2007-06-24 16:04:10
317.   OldYanksFan
While y'all rag on Torre, I feel sorry for him. Literally the highest expections in the entire world of sports, and he has to watch this shit everyday. At least we can turn off the TV. Joe needs to try and do something.

I'll bet when Jetes hurt his hip yesterday, Torre shit his pants.

I can't imagine the Yankees NOT signing ARod, unless there are resigned to 3 years of rebuilding.

2007-06-24 16:04:32
318.   Jim Dean
309 And yet I can't believe there are still Cashman defenders.

He's the first one that needs to be fired. The weaknesses with this team were obvious in November.

2007-06-24 16:06:29
319.   OldYanksFan
311 Yes. Torre, Cashman and Miggy. They each only got 1 hit.
2007-06-24 16:06:52
320.   williamnyy23
314 Next season, the Yankees will need a DH, RF, CF and 1B. Then, throw in the possibilty that Arod may leave, Posada may be human and Cano may be the league average hitter of 2005/2007, and 2008 looks so bad it makes you not want to give up on this one.
2007-06-24 16:08:00
321.   williamnyy23
Is it like this in every day game in SF?
2007-06-24 16:08:28
322.   Jim Dean
320 Really? What do you do with Giambi and Damon?

And who's better than Abreu that's available?

2007-06-24 16:09:12
323.   cult of basebaal
317 i don't. it's time for him to go, he's managing this season on auto-pilot. from the bullpen to the bench and his obsession with his bellyfull of guts guys, he's a big part of the problem.

318 i'd rather have cashman than tampa.

2007-06-24 16:10:39
324.   cult of basebaal
322 well, at least with the year he's having, resigning abreu would be the cheapest of the available options ...
2007-06-24 16:10:56
325.   Chyll Will
315 That's why I said the wide majority. I'm of the thought that the wild card doesn't necessarily mean that the team is good; more to assure that a good team from one division doesn't get left out because of the de-facto top team of a bad division. But you and I agree about the replacement-level hitters, which is the true bane of the offense when they're forced into the starting lineup. Bad teams make a habit out of it, unlucky teams are stuck with it for the time being...
2007-06-24 16:11:09
326.   williamnyy23
317 Feel sorry for Torre? His career was rescued from the scrap heep. He is now a multi-millionaire and big time celebrity. If he gets fired, he'd probably no longer care whether the Yankees won another game. Instead, he could sip pina coladas in Hawaii. No, I don't feel bad for Torre. He can do something about the situation. I feel bad for diehard fans who have to watch the entire organization muff the entire season.
2007-06-24 16:11:59
327.   Jim Dean
323 It's not an either/or for Cashman or Tampa. Oppenheimer is more than capable - he's the guy most responsible for restocking the farm. Besides, last I looked Cashman got handed a teeam that was winning Series every year and has turned it into a club that can stay at .500. Why does he get so much credit? For signing Pavano? Or Farnsworth? Or Damon?
2007-06-24 16:13:25
328.   williamnyy23
322 I think Damon and Giambi are at the point where injuries make them very unreliable players. As for Abreu, time will tell on whether he's back in 2008, but it's looking more and more like he is on the downside, making his $16mn price tag prohibitive.
2007-06-24 16:14:51
329.   randym77
Ugh. This game sure went to heck fast. It's really not a good idea to use Farnsy two days in a row.

And did we have two errors in one half-inning? What happened with Melky?

And Jeter's got 12 errors this season. He's hitting well this year, but his defense and baserunning aren't so hot. Trying too hard?

2007-06-24 16:16:31
330.   Jim Dean
328 They're not replacing Damon or Giambi next year no matter how necessary it may seem. Shit, if it took three-plus years to get a CF and now three-plus years to get a 1B, they ain't doing shit about often injured DH and CF that a they owe almost 50 million.

As for Abreu, who do you replace him with? Any of Jones, Dye, and even Hunter will cost much more than 16 mil and at multiple years.

Like I said - 1B and the bullpen - same as it ever was.

2007-06-24 16:18:24
331.   williamnyy23
329 The game went to heck when Torre filled out the lineup card. After yesterday's brutal loss, it couldn't have been a confidence builder to read the lineup when it was posted. My first thought was I hope Mussina is perfect...I wonder if Moose and the rest of the team thought the same.
2007-06-24 16:20:13
332.   Jim Dean
331 RE: Moose - What year did you think it was - 1997?
2007-06-24 16:21:30
333.   Jim Dean
Please God - Let Big Stein have 24 hours of clarity and fire Torre and Cashman.


2007-06-24 16:21:44
334.   williamnyy23
330 We're on different tracks...I am stating what they need...and you are stating what they have the felxibility to do. I agree that Damon and Giambi are here to stay. That is the problem.

2008 will be all about Arod and Hughes. If both play a full season, the team can be competitive. Otherwise...

2007-06-24 16:21:54
335.   cult of basebaal
327 i doubt they'd promote oppenheimer merely for running the draft, i don't believe he has any experience as an assistant gm, i can't think of a current GM who came to the position in that way.

and if it is oppenheimer, you think he's going to have steinbrenner's ear?

2007-06-24 16:22:31
336.   williamnyy23
332 After hearing the lineup, 1990 came to mind.
2007-06-24 16:24:51
337.   williamnyy23
336 Ok fine...maybe today's lineup was better:

June 24, 1990
Kelly CF
S Sax 2B
D Mattingly DH
S Balboni 1B
J Barfield RF2B,HBP
M Hall LF
J Leyritz 3B
B Geren C
R Velarde SS

2007-06-24 16:26:19
338.   Jim Dean
334 I can't bring myself to discuss space-time continuums that don't exist.

335 Word was Oppenheimer actually got close to the Tampa cabal after early tutelage from Stick.

Cashman is part of the problem - not the solution. He's showed as much over the last two off-seasons.

2007-06-24 16:31:43
339.   OldYanksFan
Jones, Dye, and even Hunter don't appeal to me. Ichiro does, as he is strong on D, excellent arm, great speed and can still hit. If healthy, Giambi is our DH and JD at first, unless we get Tex. We don't need to take Bobby's option. Unless he rakes the 2nd half, he's not worth much over $10m on the FA block.

In 2009, alot lot of money is off the books. Pettitte, Moose and Giambi are like $45m.

With Wang, Hughes, Clip, Pettitte and Moose, our SP could actually be pretty good. Maybe one good pickup in the offseason. If Brittan and Bruney can throw strikes, they still have a high upside.

I think it hinges on ARod. We need his power bat, and to have one less position to fill.

The future does not look great, but we may have a contending team next year if JD and Giambi stay healthy (big IF) and Clip can be a #3-#4 guy.

2007-06-24 16:33:42
340.   cult of basebaal
338 hmmm ... poking around, you might be right on oppenheimer ... though it might also be newman
2007-06-24 16:34:24
341.   williamnyy23
uh oh...Kay just referenced Stump Merrill...the manager of that imposing lineup in 337.
2007-06-24 16:35:49
342.   cult of basebaal
339 quite frankly, it's far more likely that joba is in the rotation next year than clippard (knocks on the tinstaap tree), he's coming fast
2007-06-24 16:36:56
343.   Jim Dean
339 Of course Ichiro would appeal to you - all reputation and little performance to back it up.

There's a reason they moved him to CF - because he can't hit enough to play RF. Career OPS+ = 121 including 109 in 2005 and 2006.

2007-06-24 16:39:10
344.   williamnyy23
339 I don't think you can count on Moose and Clip for 2008. The Yankees don't have the margin of error to enter another season with 2 questions in the rotation. If Arod is back, you have to explore a Santana deal or signing Zambrano. If Arod walks, then I'd probably eschew an addition. One thing to remember is that Pettitte has the option. If he doesn't like the look of the team, he might not come back.
2007-06-24 16:40:23
345.   williamnyy23
343 A career OPS+ of 121 is hardly little performance, especially when you steal bases efficiently, play good defense and play every day.
2007-06-24 16:40:38
346.   williamnyy23
Is Torre really not angry by this game?
2007-06-24 16:41:22
347.   williamnyy23
My goodness...Torre says he is ok with the effort in this game. That's very telling to me.
2007-06-24 16:42:36
348.   Jim Dean
345 For a RF, it's terrible. Besides, you're not getting 121 OPS+. You'll probably be getting that 109 he posting in both 2005 and 2006, and likely even worse.
2007-06-24 16:43:12
349.   cult of basebaal
339 and i'm not sure i get the clippard lovefest. i love watching him pitch, and i'll root for him to suceed, but he's no great bet to have even a middling big league career. his stuff will only play if he's got very good command, which he hasn't demonstrated so far ... even if, what's his best case scenario? paul byrd? jon lieber??
2007-06-24 16:43:42
350.   Jim Dean
No thanks on Zambrano.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-06-24 16:44:35
351.   cult of basebaal
344 no zambrano, no way, no thanks ...
2007-06-24 16:45:30
352.   williamnyy23
348 Terrible? terrible? terrible?
2007-06-24 16:45:39
353.   Jim Dean
349 Right - he's a control pitcher that lost his command. He was very good in the minors and he's still just 22. He could easily be a serviceable #4. That's valuable.
2007-06-24 16:47:09
354.   williamnyy23
350 351 Why no thanks? You have no interest in a 26 year old who strikes people out and has a career 129 ERA+?
2007-06-24 16:47:47
355.   OldYanksFan
Let me get this straight. After years of getting high offense, one dimensional players, and having terrible D and arms in our OF, a 121 OPS+ on a guy with a great arm, great speed and excellent defense is NOT a solid position? Is Abreu better? JD? Mats? Ichiro is not a slugger and not the highest OBP guy, but he is very well rounded in terms of a complete game.

He is an above average batter, runner and fielder. Who, aside from ARod, have the Yankess had in the last 5 years you could say that about?

Yeah... all reputation, who currenly has an .882 OPS, and a career OPS of .820, a GG and a cannon.

2007-06-24 16:50:44
356.   cult of basebaal
353 well, i think it's a matter of semantics, easily isn't the word i'd choose. i'm all for giving him more chances, he could become a back of the rotation guy, he could just as likely never amount to anything. he's not a real valuable asset and he's certainly not someone i'm penciling in to the rotation for next year (as in 339)
2007-06-24 16:51:09
357.   williamnyy23
355 I'm with you on this one..I can "live" with a 121 OPS+ from a GG outfielder who steals bases without getting caught, rarely strikes out and seems to be in great mental/physical condition. A lineup beginning with Ichiro, Jeter and Arod would be a nice start on 2008.

One other bonus with Ichiro is he can play CF or RF. That would give the Yankees more flexibility in filling the other position.

2007-06-24 16:51:59
358.   randym77
I like Ichiro. I'd love to watch him play every day.
2007-06-24 16:52:39
359.   cult of basebaal
354 heavy innings at young age, loads of pitches (high PAP), uneven walk year with loss of control and altered arm slot ... no thanks
2007-06-24 16:53:38
360.   cult of basebaal
354 and especially not over 5 or 7 years, which is the length of the contract he's going to get
2007-06-24 16:55:36
361.   williamnyy23
359 Zambrano's top innings year was 223. If anything, he has proven that he can handle 200 IPs every season. I am not sure why you see that as a red flag (as an aside, if Hughes has 5 straight seasons like Zambrano, would you advocate the Yankees not resigning him)?

As for the walk year, have you seen Zambrano's last 5 or 6 starts?

2007-06-24 16:58:02
362.   cult of basebaal
here's some stuff on CZ:

from carlos gomez:

and from will carroll:

Pitching analyst Carlos Gomez got the spotlight treatment from Carlos Zambrano this weekend. Yeah, I know how that feels. Zambrano insists he's not hurt, and that his lower arm slot is not an indication of injury. While I'll agree that the slot appears to be lower and that his velocity is down (both big signs of some shoulder problem), I'm not ready to say that we have enough evidence to make any sort of diagnosis or even solid analysis. I spoke with Dr. Glenn Fleisig of ASMI, the leading biomechanist in the baseball world, about the situation and he agreed. "What we see is a combination of two things—shoulder abduction and trunk tilt to the glove side. It might look like a lower arm slot, but it could be a couple things. Is his trunk in the same position? Has his deltoid fatigued?" Fleisig's research has shown that by dropping the elbow below the shoulder, it not only misaligns the shoulder, creating an increased risk of bursitis, labrum damage, and rotator cuff tears, it actually increases the varus torque on the elbow. Gomez's video, especially in section two, appears to show that Zambrano is leaning more to the ballside, which Gomez notes. Flesig made a point of noting that "pitchers aren't robots. The arm slot is going to be very individual because there's no one right slot for everyone." Zambrano is clearly not getting the results this season, despite his correct assertion that he has more wins. I'm not going to try and explain again why wins tell us nothing about Zambrano, but I'm watching his motion, as I'm sure Mr. Gomez will be as well.

2007-06-24 16:58:08
363.   williamnyy23
360 I have no problem giving a 27 year old a 6 year deal.
2007-06-24 17:00:13
364.   williamnyy23
362 Again, I wonder what the authors of would say about Zambrano's performance since the May 21 date of the article?
2007-06-24 17:02:38
365.   cult of basebaal
364 they'd say, because they have, that his arm slot is still off, which brings into play the biomechanics issues mentioned above
2007-06-24 17:11:04
366.   williamnyy23
Well...what ever arm slot he is using now sure seems to be working just fine. Of course, maybe his resurgence was the result of correcting his arm slot. Regardless, I wouldn't base my evaluation of one of the game's best pitchers off of a biomechanic analysis performed by Carlos Gomez.
2007-06-24 17:16:14
367.   Jim Dean
352 Okay, "not great" for a RF. But is there any doubt that he'll be a singles hitter in the middle of his new five year deal?

354 The recent trends don't look good and he'll come at #1 prices for #3 or #4 results. No thanks.

355 For a CF - that's great. But not for a RF, esp not for a team that needs more than singles. Plus, the recent bad contracts haven't taught you anything? Ichiro is 33. Johnny Damon meet Ichiro. He's not a 121 OPS+ guy anymore - even if he rebounds this year. I count the previous two years more heavily, thanks.

2007-06-24 17:18:04
368.   cult of basebaal
except well, he hasn't, so it isn't and again, we're not talking about the next 100 games, we're talking about signing someone for a long term deal. if his mechanics are off (especially in such a way that his shoulder is being compromised) AND he's been ridden like a rented mule at a young age (#1,#2,#2 and #4 in PAP the last 4 years) he's not the pitcher i'd want to extend a 6 year contract to ... because giving 6 year contracts to pitchers is a good way to waste a bunch of money
2007-06-24 17:18:49
369.   Jim Dean
366 "one of the game's best pitchers"

Easy on the hyperbole. Hey, I would have been with you before the season. But I'd rather not spend significant cash on a guy who's thrived on the NL Central for his whole career. Is there any doubt he'd command Zito money?

2007-06-24 17:21:58
370.   Jim Dean
And back to Ichiro - perfect example where all reason goes out the window for a "name".

william - you're against re-signing Abreu, but Ichiro is going to cost at least 3x as much. If Gary Matthews can get 5 years and 50 million, how much you think Ichiro would get.

I think you're comfusing those space-time continuums again.

2007-06-24 17:25:19
371.   Zack
Once again glad I missed the today's game and comment section. Nothing like losing to reignite the same old arguments and frustrations. let's get this guy, let's not get that guy. Cashman sucks, Cashman isn't the issue. Cashman is the winningest GM ever, Cashman got handed a team and has no part in all those wins. I hate every Yankee save A-Rod, I love every Yankee save A-Rod...

There's really not much to say about this team that doesn't return to their basic .500ness. They look, fell, and play like a .500 team, except that the majority of the team makes a ton of money and should be all-stars...Blow up the team, don't blow up the team--At the end of two more years the rotation will be stacked with young studs and the lineup will probably look very different save for Jeter, (hopefully) A-Rod, and Cano...

So just convince yourself that this and next year are rebuilding years, that the team will be a wildcare the year after that, and win it all and set itself up as a dynasty again in three...Does that help?

2007-06-24 17:25:35
372.   OldYanksFan
367 Does Ichiro have an injury history Im not aware of? When he's 36, he will be in better shap then most 33 year olds.

Damon had lots of nagging injuries even though he was never on the DL. I have watched the Sox for years Everyone in RSN knew he was in decline, it was just a matter of what extent.

Is Ichiro in decline?
Is he losing range in CF?
He still looks like a rabbit to me.

2007-06-24 17:28:11
373.   cult of basebaal
372 i think that was said about 150 posts ago ...

somedays it's better to just to stay away

well, here's to tuesday night and forgetting the last 6 games ...

i'm out

2007-06-24 17:36:31
374.   Jim Dean
371 Damon and Matsui are still on the team in two years.

And who do you expect to form the core of the next dynasty?

The last one had three position players at the most valuable positions (Bernie, Jeter, Jorge), one starting pitcher (Pettitte), and one greatest closer of all time.

Right now, the Yanks may have the arms, but who does the hitting in 2010?

372 Ichiro will get a five to six year deal. I have a hard time believing he'll be more than a singles hitter in two or three years, if that. And that doesn't cut it for RF and not at the price that will be required to sign him.

2007-06-24 17:54:07
375.   williamnyy23
368 Zambrano has never been injured in his 6 year career. Some pitchers can handle a heavy workload.

369 Since 2003, Zambrano has been 8th, 3rd, 9th and 5th in adjusted ERA in the NL, so yes, I'd say he has been one of the game's best pitchers over that span. As for the comp to Zito, the latter was three years old and already showing evidence of a decline. Zambrano's past four seasons show no such signs. At age 27, Zambrano would be able to pitch 3 years before reaching the age of Zito when he was a FA this past off season.

370 I am willing to give Abreu an entire season, but his 95 OPS+ isn't very encouraging. If he continues what has been an evident decline, then I'd much rather have Ichiro. Now, the actual terms of the deal are a factor. Not sure why you think Ichiro would command 5x Abreu's $16mn, but I'll make that evaluation when the time comes.

372 Ichiro seems to be in peak physical condition. He also seems to be a mentally sound. I can't imagine Ichiro having a hard time adjusting to NY.

374 Who says he will get 5 or 6 years? I wouldn't be surpised if Ichiro only wanted three or four.

2007-06-24 17:59:15
376.   Ken Arneson
It would be stupid to sign Ichiro and not put him in center. He's the best CF in the game right now, bar none. The Mariners should have moved him to CF the second they lost Mike Cameron; they wasted two years playing him in RF. Moving him to CF this season is the reason the Mariners are in second place instead of last, and the reason they have a better record than the Yankees, even though 3/5 of their rotation is garbage. Singles hitter or not, his defense is that good, and that valuable.
2007-06-24 18:00:15
377.   yankz
Clearly, vacations do nothing for Jim Dean.
2007-06-24 18:01:53
378.   yankz
375 You forgot "Zambrano has also explicitly stated he doesn't want to be a Yankee, so it'd take more than Zito money to change his mind."
2007-06-24 18:04:36
379.   yankz
According to VORP, Ichiro has been the 3rd most valuable player in baseball this year. If the Yankees got him they'd be fools not to move Damon to left or 1B full-time and either deal or DH Matsui, or just deal Damon.
2007-06-24 18:08:06
380.   Jim Dean
375 Gary Matthews got 5 years and 50 million. Carlos Lee got 6 years and 100 million. Soriano got 8 years and 130 million. I have hard time believing that Ichiro would get any less than 5-6 years at 75-90 million.

376 I'm not sure Ichiro is the reason. But that's my point. As a CF, he's fine. As a RF (what the Yanks need in 2008), he's not a good fit.

377 Actually it did me well - right up until the Yanks lost 5 of 6 against the Rox and Giants with Cairo starting at 1B in almost every one.

2007-06-24 18:08:24
381.   Zack
374 AFTER two years I said. Two seasons from now is the mixture year, after two more seasons is the total turnover...

But more to the point, relax JD, I know you are freaked out, annoyed, and have a dislike for Cashman, but don't let that blind you to the future. The Yanks will have a core of SPs and BP guys dominating, and the surplus from that will net a few positional prospects, who, combined with Tabata, Gardner, and some Duncan type/Brocius style lesser players, and a few key free agents/trades, will form the core of the lineup. It won't be the lineup that this year was SUPPOSED to be, but it will be good, good enough to win for our kick-ass rotation. Its all about the kool aid my friend, and it tastes nice and sweet, especially with some vodka to forget the present...

See, the problem is that little hot streak got everyone excited again and thinking this team was more than a .500 team. And they will do that all season, b/c they are still good enough to rip off a few streaks like that. But also bad enough to go dead cold as well...Just remain in the rebuilding mindset...Its all one can do...

I don't have a problem with Cashman being fired per se, but its just the potential for a return to post 2001-2006 trade a way the system/Tampa faction I dread...

2007-06-24 18:09:21
382.   OldYanksFan
The FA market looks to be permanently overpriced, as more and more teams are willing to pay BIG dollars for 1 or 2 players. Even KC got in the fray last year. And some of it is on Steins $80mil

Until we develope our own youth, we will have to overpay. There are not to many deals for premiere (or even semi-premiere) players. At least we can afford it easier then everyone else.

Also, Cash did not jump and overpay for anyone last year. Over $50m comes off the books after 2008 ($70 if ARod leaves).

After 2009 we lose Mats (13m) and Damon (13m) so we have money do rebuild. I trust in Cashman.

Its a matter of being smart and NOT being desparate. We also have some pitching trade bait. Lets hope China can produce 1 player.

2007-06-24 18:12:15
383.   Jim Dean
And folks, explain to me what happened to Ichiro and his bat in 2005 and 2006.

Nah, this team has trouble with overpriced past-prime "stars". But the Yanks should drop 90 million on Ichiro. Makes a ton of sense.

And Melky is playing a much better CF than Ichiro this year (120 RATE vs 107 RATE).

2007-06-24 18:15:42
384.   williamnyy23
378 But he hasn't...just as Helton hasn't said he wouldn't play for the Yankees. Time and time again we here about players saying they never would play for the Yankees and then...
2007-06-24 18:15:49
385.   Jim Dean
381 Sorry mate, I'd rather not think three years into the future about "dominating" pitchers that have yet to hit the majors.

And the money 382 means nothing if a moron GM is the one spending it (Pavano, Farns, Damon, extension for Moose, 1B, the bench - need I go on?).

2007-06-24 18:16:47
386.   williamnyy23
380 The Yankees don't need a CF in 2008?
2007-06-24 18:19:10
387.   Jim Dean
386 You're still living in fantasyland. Damon is the CF for 2008. Cause he damn well shouldn't be the DH nor the 1B - he won't hit enough for either. Either he's the CF or he's a very overpriced pinch runner.
2007-06-24 18:24:54
388.   yankz
384 No, he actually has. I'll try to find a link.
2007-06-24 18:29:21
389.   yankz
384 "Will the Evil Empire and Yankee Fan get a crack at Zambrano next winter?

"I like the Yankees, but I don't see myself pitching at Yankee Stadium. Too many rules," he said with a laugh. "If I play in New York, it's going to be with the Mets. First of all, because I get to hit. And I love hitting."

So like I said. He has explicitly stated that he does not want to be a Yankee, and it would take more than Zito money to change his mind.

2007-06-24 18:29:48
390.   Jim Dean
382 "Also, Cash did not jump and overpay for anyone last year."

What about 50 million to Igawa? Did you forget about him because he sucks?

Or the 28 million to Clemens?

2007-06-24 18:46:40
391.   Zack
Word on the street has the Sox trying to land Buehrle, with the other Sox asking for Ellisbury and Bucholhz/Lester.

I don't fear Buehrle at all and would love to see the Sox trade away two of their best and only close to ready prospects. But, it sure does make the Sox seem ever closer to the Yanks, doesn't it?

And Jim, fine, what would you have done this offseason? Bid over 51M for DM? Signed who as a BUC? The 1B I agree could have been done better, but that is hardly the make or break aspect of the season.

No no, wait, I know, you would have pulled off a few trades to land us a stud catcher and 1b right, without giving up anything worthwhile? And you would have traded Sheff and Johnson for prospects who would be starting for this team right now. Or kept Johnson and had him spend more time on the DL than off it? You can bitch and moan all you want about Cashman; he's hardly perfect and not in the top 3-5 GMs either, but I have yet to see you actually make any argument based on anything but your personal opinion about players or an argument that rests purely on the short-term, win now mentality that got this team in the crap state its in...

2007-06-24 18:46:55
392.   Zack
Annnnd, I'm out...
2007-06-24 19:18:50
393.   Jim Dean
391 It's really amazing how resilient that argument is:

Cashman did nothing so there was nothing more he could have done.

I suppose it's because Cashman has still done nothing.

2007-06-24 19:21:05
394.   Jim Dean
"an argument that rests purely on the short-term, win now mentality that got this team in the crap state its in... "

You're right. The Yanks should sign Ichiro.

2007-06-24 19:44:33
395.   Raf
391 Off the top of my head in no particular order;

Moved Pavano for someone, be it a BUC, 1B, or a bullpen arm, just get rid of him. Talk up that conditioning program he underwent in AZ

Kept RJ, or get a better return for him. Otherwise tell him what GM's told Munson when he expressed a desire to play with the Indians.

Have a sitdown with Sheffield, convince him 1b is the best position for him. Other than that, I'm fine with the trade to the Tiggers.

Ask Mats if he'd be interested in learning 1b.

Taken a look at Carlos Pena, Randall Simon, Matt Stairs, Craig Wilson

Kept Dotel, dumped Villone, would've signed Igawa.

Gotten the Posada & Rivera extensions out of the way.

Talked to the Phils or Pirates about their catching situation.

Of course all this may have been done, none may have been done, maybe a combination of the above was done. I don't know... I'm just sayin'

2007-06-24 20:15:48
396.   Zack
Right, and what did Pavano cost us this season, in terms of detriment to the team? heck, he gave us an opening day start. Honestly, what makes you think we could have gotten a hill of beans for Pavano. Thats exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. It doesn't work that way: any attempt to move Pavano would have most likely involved the Yankees paying THE ENTIRE salary, and the return would have been a "take my problem" type deal, or a minor league non-prospect. Keeping him on the team did nothing either way...

Keeping RJ would obviously have done nothing for us that our kids haven't done. Hes been on the DL for more than hes pitched, and hes been pitching in the weakest hitting division in baseball...

Have a sit down with Sheff? Yeah, hes a real "work with the team for whats best for them" kind of guy. And do you remember his attempts at 1b? Not so good.

I agree about Mats at 1B, but I think thats equally a Torre thing, he places so much into honor and streaks and that stuff...

Randall Simon and Wilson both stink, Pena I agree (although considering the Sox dumped him too, no one thought much of him). Stairs I agree on...

Dotel has missed most of the season, and hasn't been very good. Plus. Joe clearly had no trust in him, which is a death card...

I have no problem with not signing guys until the end of the season, it avoids potential long term issues and both of those guys are highly likely to resign anyways...

I agree about the Phils/Pirates catching situation, that seems like a glaring weakness of Cashmans...

All I am saying is that for the most part, those really are highly debatable with as much if not more on the don't do this than the do them...Plus, save for Sheff and RJ, they are mostly minorish things...

and 394, Ichiro is an argument I agree with you on, but its a non-issue right now as it hasn't happened...

2007-06-24 20:55:08
397.   yankz
395 was the first good anti-Cashman post I've ever seen around here. Offered actual plausible options instead of demanding for horribly lopsided trades that weren't even rumored, though I'm more inclined to agree with 396.

And with that, Zack, I think you should give up as well, before Jim Dean informs you that you're doing drugs. I mean, I'm all for fighting the good fight, but both sides think the other is unreasonable.
2007-06-24 21:22:23
398.   williamnyy23
387 Is Damon in CF now? So why will he definitely be in CF next season?

389 I can think of millions of reasons why Zambrano would give up his hitting hobby. Heck...the Yankees could let him pinch hit for Nieves every fifth day.

2007-06-24 22:10:41
399.   Raf
396 Looking at what teams were throwing at Jeff Suppan, Ted Lilly, & Gil Meche or seeing as Cashman was able to dump Wright on the O's, there was a possibility that Pavano could've been dumped sometime during ST. IIRC, the Cards & Rockies expressed interest in Pavano. I think a trade with the M's for Sexson was an option too.

WRT RJ, I think you could take a gamble that he would bounce back from back surgery. I often wonder if the Yanks could have gotten more for him. They didn't have to move him, so it's not like the Yanks were forced to make a trade.

I have little problem with the Sheffield deal, but I'd rather try to convince him of playing 1b than having Minky, Cairo, Phelps & Phillips there. Yeah Sheffield runs his mouth a lot, but there's no doubt that push comes to shove he will come ready to play. I remember the attempt to play him @ 1b, I also remember watching Giambi playing 1b.

WRT the other names I mentioned for 1b, it's just throwing something against the wall to see what sticks. I would've given more consideration to Aaron Guiel too.

Dotel was a risk, but with what the Yanks already invested in him, may as well try to hold on to him for another year. Of course, there may have been more that meets the eye WRT him signing with the Royals.

Like I said before, I'm just brainstorming.

2007-06-24 22:31:02
400.   monkeypants
Pete Abe just posted a list of suggested moves the Yankees could try--it's the the first post there that has made sense in weeks. I can't believe how rational most of the suggestions were.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-06-24 22:56:30
401.   Zack
399 I do appreciate the actual suggestions, and don't take my replies as anything but brainstroming along with you. Its nice to actually, as Yankz said in 397, actually get down to the nitty gritty and debate their plausability rather than ranting and roaring (like true British sailors?).

The Guiel one is somethign that got no press but seems inexplicable why he isn't on the bench, he actually hit in his time in NY! Cash and Torre's desire to have the whole infield covered with a useless BUI as well as carry 12 pitchers (at elast two of whome never pitch), really has killed the team this year bench-wise.

I also really believe that Dotel was 100% a case of the Joe Torre doghouse, which, once entered, is near impossible to escape from and renders you basically useless as a member of the team. The doghouse sits right next to the "last guy off the bench" house and "rookie/inexperienced player" house. Ask Phillips, Phelps, Randy Choate, Sean Henn, Dotel, Basak, either of the Kevins, etc etc etc...

400 Yeah, all of those suggestions are right on the money, which makes me think Pete Abe finalyl got off his high horse and looked at what was going on. Actually admitting that Cairo stunk was a huge admission for him of late...

2007-06-24 23:00:12
402.   monkeypants
401 "Actually admitting that Cairo stunk was a huge admission for him of late..."


2007-06-25 05:36:30
403.   OldYanksFan
What's amazing is that we fans can come up with so many ideas that Cashman, all his scouts, consultants and FO people, and the billion dollar Yankee machines couldn't think of.

We must be so smart.
Cashman must be dumber then the average Yankee fan.

I'll tell you sometime that's absolutely true.
Mario Andretti may be a very good driver.
But from the back sea, armed with hindsight and no responsibilities, I am a much, MUCH better driver.

And smarter too.
Mario Andretti is pretty dumb actually.

2007-06-25 06:57:23
404.   Raf
403 Sarcasm aside, there are well run teams, there are poorly run teams. The way things are shaping up at the ML level, the Yanks are a poorly run team. Not as bad as, say the M's or the Pirates or the Royals or the Nationals, but you have to wonder. Having a bench like the Yanks currently have is inexscuseable given their resources. Cairo starting at 1b is inexscuseable. Having 3 lefties in the pen for a while (Villone/Henn/Meyers) is inexscuseable. Having Cairo & Basak on the roster is inexscuseable. The lineup the Yanks ran out there yesterday was inexscuseable. Signing Pavano, Womack, and Wright was inexscuseable.

Shall I go on?

I don't think Cashman is stupid. I don't think he's a bad GM. I don't think he's dumber than the average fan (who probably would've endorsed throwing more $$ at the pitching situation) but I do think his track record is a bit uneven, given some of the moves he made. C'mon, do you think bringing back Villone & Cairo was a good idea? Do you think relying on Pavano to pitch when he has been hurt more often than not (overall, not just his time as a Yank) was a good idea? Do you think burying Britton @ AAA is a good idea? Do you think waiting so long to fill CF was a good idea? History is repeating itself with the BUC & 1b situations. It's going to repeat itself again with 3b if Rodriguez opts out.

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