Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
The Colorado Rockies
2007-06-19 12:10
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

This just in: The Rockies don't suck. In fact, the Rockies have won as many games in 2007 as the Yankees have (though Colorado has lost two more). No longer Todd Helton and a bunch of scrubs, the Rockies are a legitimate .500 team that has some youth and promise that could represent the beginning of a small turn around for a franchise that has never won more than 83 games in any single season in its entire 14-year history. Note I said small. The Rockies are not the Brewers, Diamondbacks, or even the Marlins. Their future isn't quite that bright, but it's still about as bright as it's ever been if not more so.

Start with the pitching staff. Josh Fogg and Rodrigo Lopez are filler, even if Lopez is having an excellent though injury-shortened season, but Jeff Francis, Jason Hirsh, and Aaron Cook (of whom the 28-year-old Cook is the oldest) form a solid top three with third-year lefty Francis showing continued improvement as the defacto ace, Cook serving as the National League's answer to Jake Westbrook, and 25-year-old Hirsh (the key prospect in the Jason Jennings trade) succeeding despite a scary fly ball rate. With additional thanks to Lopez, the Rocky starters have posted a 4.52 ERA this far, which is a minor miracle for a team playing in Coors Field. Mix in strong showings from closer Brian Fuentes and hard-throwing, side-arming sophomore set-up man Manuel Corpas and surprising performances from lefties Jeremy Affeldt (more walks than Ks, but zero homers) and Tom Martin, and the entire staff's ERA+ is a dead-average 101, while the team's road ERA is 3.85, which is the third-best in the NL behind the Mets and Padres.

On offense, the Rocks have a solid outfield and left side of the infield, with the oldest of those five men being 28-year-old right fielder Brad Hawpe. Matt Holliday is a legitimate All-Star (.318/.374/.546 career and .321/.372/.522 on the road this year). Hawpe is a lesser version of same (.281/.371/.483 career on the road). Center fielder Willy Taveras (who also came over in the Jennings deal) is a fantastic defender in that big park and has solid on-base numbers both at home (.373) and on the road (.358), though he could stand to be more selective about his stolen base attempts. In the infield, Garrett Atkins got off to an awful start, but has turned it on in June (.327/.441/.673), and 22-year-old future-star shortstop Troy Tulowitzki has been playing gold glove defense while waiting for his bat to come around. Throw in solid contributions on both sides of the ball from reclamation project Kaz Matsui and a healthy Helton and, well, the Rockies don't suck.

Josh Fogg kinda sucks, though, and he'll take the mound tonight against the Yankees. One might not be surprised to find that Fogg's only two wins came on the road and that his ERA at home is 2.77 runs higher than his road mark, though one might be surprised to find out that those two wins game against the Mets and Red Sox. What's more, the Rockies have won Fogg's last three starts and Fogg's ERA over his last four starts (two home, two on the road) has been 3.91. Then again, opponents have hit .326/.375/.495 against him in those four starts, so, even when he does well, Josh Fogg sucks.

As for Mike Mussina, he was fantastic in his last two starts (13 2/3 IP, 10 H, 3 R, 0 BB, 11 K, 1.98 ERA), but I'm still not convinced, as the two teams Moose faced in those games, the White Sox and Diamondbacks, comprise half of the four worst offensive teams in baseball. The Yankees have visited Colorado during the regular season once before, in 2002. In those three games, the two teams scored a total of 70 runs. Coors Field isn't quite the launching pad it was then thanks to the humidor (the 2002 park factor was 121 compared to 107 for 2006 and 2007), but I don't think it's out of the question to expect that kind of game again tonight.

Colorado Rockies

2006 Record: 76-86 (.469)
2006 Pythagorean Record: 81-81 (.500)

Manager: Clint Hurdle
General Manager: Dan O'Dowd

Home Ballpark (2007 Park Factors): Coors Field (107/107)

Who's Replacing Whom?

Trot Tulowitzki replaces Clint Barmes
Willy Taveras replaces Choo Freeman and a lot of Cory Sullivan
Kaz Matsui cuts into Jamey Carroll's playing time
Chris Iannetta replaces Danny Ardoin, J. D. Closser, and Miguel Ojeda
Jeff Baker replaces Luis A. Gonzalez
Jason Hirsh replaces Jason Jennings
Rodrigo Lopez replaces Byung-Hyun Kim
LaTroy Hawkins replaces Jose Mesa
Jorge Julio replaces Ray King
Taylor Buchholz replaces Ramon Ramirez (minors)
Manuel Corpas takes over David Cortes's innings
Jeremy Affeldt replaces Scott Dohmann's innings

25-man Roster:

1B – Todd Helton (L)
2B – Kazuo Matsui (S)
SS – Troy Tulowitzki (R)
3B – Garrett Atkins (R)
C – Yorvit Torrealba (R)
RF – Brad Hawpe (L)
CF – Willy Taveras (R)
LF – Matt Holliday (L)


R - Jeff Baker (OF)
R - Jamey Carroll (IF)
R - Chris Iannetta (C)
R - Ryan Spilborghs (OF)
L - Cory Sullivan (OF)


L - Jeff Francis
R - Rodrigo Lopez
R - Josh Fogg
R - Jason Hirsh
R - Aaron Cook


L - Brian Fuentes
R - Manny Corpas
L - Jeremy Affeldt
R - LaTroy Hawkins
L - Tom Martin
R - Jorge Julio
R - Taylor Buchholz

15-day DL: R - Zach McClellan

Typical Lineup:

R – Willy Taveras (CF)
S – Kazuo Matsui (2B)
R – Matt Holliday (LF)
L – Todd Helton (1B)
R – Garrett Atkins (3B)
L – Brad Hawpe (RF)
R – Troy Tulowitzki (SS)
R – Yorvit Torrealba (C)

Comments (473)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-06-19 14:30:08
1.   rabid stan
"The Rockies don't suck"

You sound like Mark.

2007-06-19 14:31:31
2.   Cliff Corcoran
For good reason. He's my first stop for Rockies info. Which reminds me . . .

Be sure to check out Bad Altitude on the sidebar for the Colorado perspective on this series.

2007-06-19 14:46:12
3.   cult of basebaal
All Hail! the mighty Phillips, who has come to save us from the clutches of the gritty, scrappy miggy cairo!
2007-06-19 14:47:01
4.   Chyll Will
Mark is good people. I hope he goes to the game.
2007-06-19 14:51:22
5.   cult of basebaal
I wonder if Phillips' arrival means the end of the Josh Phelps Experience ... or whether basak goes down ...
2007-06-19 15:04:58
6.   RIYank
I agree that Mark should go to the game. Let's take a vote and then tell him.
2007-06-19 15:21:41
7.   cult of basebaal
it appears that Phelps is the one, fare thee well, josh ... maybe some day you'll acquire a bellyfull of veteran guts and be worthy of playing for uncle joe
2007-06-19 15:36:38
8.   mikeplugh
I know that offense in Colorado isn't what it used to be after the humidor, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the Yankees will approach 20 runs in one of these games.
2007-06-19 15:38:18
9.   mikeplugh
Phelps out means that PeteAbe pops a cork on some Moet in the press box. He never got a shot to play everyday. Too bad.

I hope Phillips gets that chance. All he's ever done at AAA is hit, so maybe the 2nd time up is a charm.

2007-06-19 15:41:47
10.   cult of basebaal
i think the first couple of games will be telling ... if joe plugs him right in and leaves him there, we might get an actual chance to find out if he's going to be able to help us

if joe jerks him in and out of the lineup with miggy, i predict we're going to have to go get another first baseman

2007-06-19 15:49:21
11.   thelarmis
bad altitude is always a good read. i read every post during the offseason and always felt bad there were hardly any comments - mark is a talented writer. he's also a musician, so i'm down!

yeah, i hope he goes to the game! my best friend from growing up in NY lives in denver but won't be making any of the games, unfortunately.

it will be fun to check on the comments over there -- if anyone actually posts...

2007-06-19 16:36:20
12.   mikeplugh
By the way, before game action gets underway and this gets lost, I posted info about the 2 Chinese players the Yankees signed at Canyon of Heroes. There's not much to go on, but I know where to look now and I hope to compile more info, including stats. Not that those stats mean much, but it's something. A lot of research to get the numbers, but I'm working on it.

Nice to have a catcher. 19 years old. Any bets on who is better right now, this minute: Nieves or Zhang? ;)

2007-06-19 16:38:47
13.   monkeypants
Ah well, the Josh Phelps experience that never was. Heck, there was a good chance he could have outhit Damon as a full-time DH, even it it was deemed that he couldn't hack it at first. Oh well, Andy has been benched before in favor of Cairo at first, so he'll be ready for it this year. Also, the fact that he has been playiing at 2B means there is potential to squander roster flexibility by keeping Basak. I love it!
2007-06-19 16:48:58
14.   RIYank
12 Thanks, I was wondering what the story was on those guys. And yeah, if they never play an inning in the Bronx but say 1/100 of 1% of China buys Yankee caps, that'd be good too!

I was surprised that their favorite players are Japanese, by the way. I figured Chinese players would not particularly like Japanese players. To put it mildly.

2007-06-19 16:50:56
15.   kylepetterson
Cabrera CF
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Rodriguez 3B
Posada 1B
Matsui LF
Cano 2B
Nieves C
Mussina P
2007-06-19 16:52:01
16.   underdog
You guys should post over there just to keep Mark company.

Meanwhile, HA! to the Blue Jays so far. ;-)

2007-06-19 16:52:32
17.   cult of basebaal
Looks like our old friend Happy Pants Johnson has a herniated disk in his back

2007-06-19 16:52:44
18.   kylepetterson
Tavaras CF
Matsui 2B
Holliday LF
Helton 1B
Atkins 3B
Hawpe RF
Tulowitzki SS
Torrealba C
Fogg P
2007-06-19 16:53:12
19.   mikeplugh
14 Their favorite players are Japanese because up until now the Japanese have been the most active in promoting the sport in China. If you look closely at the photo of Zhang in his catcher's gear it's Zett, which is a Japanese baseball equipment company. The SoftBank Hawks apparently have some interest in the Chinese Baseball League as well. I noticed that they are one of the official links on the league website, next to all the Chinese teams. It would explain why Liu's favorite pitcher is Sugiuchi. I bet he met Sugiuchi at one point and got stars in his eyes or something.

Baseball may end up being the only successful bridge between China and Japan....

2007-06-19 16:55:22
20.   cult of basebaal
from LoHud:

Andy Phillips has been called up and Josh Phelps designated for assignment. As a Rule 5 pick, Phelps has to clear waivers then be offered back to Baltimore. Only then could the Yankees outright him if they wanted to. Joe Torre said the Yankees wanted Phillips because he was a better glove and can do more things offensively. Phillips will be in the lineup tomorrow

Oh dear, Weeping will be so disappointed ...

2007-06-19 17:01:51
21.   mikeplugh
Phelps never got to be one of Joe's boys. It was clear that he was never in the plans when Minky got so much playing time despite a .150 batting average. You just knew that Phelps would be on the scrap heap and out the door before the All Star break. It's a shame, but that's the way it is on every team out there.

He won't be a Yankee anymore. Someone will claim him and if no one does, the O's will definitely take him back, I imagine. They need to try everything they can to find players. It's also noteworthy that Phillips won't be around long if he doesn't hit from Day One. If he takes a while to get into a groove, he'll be gone too. This is his last chance. The Yankees will swing a deal for Hillenbrand or something and Phillips will go back to SWB.

Hillenbrand is not really any better than Phelps or Phillips at this point, but he has history which makes him a veteran commodity in the Joe Torre clubhouse. I'd be all for Phillips the rest of the year, or Cairo for that matter. It really makes no difference as long as the other guys are mashing.

2007-06-19 17:06:51
22.   cult of basebaal
21 playing cairo is just punting a lineup spot ... hell, it's like an NL team insisting on hitting the pitcher in an AL park
2007-06-19 17:07:43
23.   monkeypants
21 So let me get this straight--the Yankees believe that Phillips is a better glove AND bat (I'm not saying I agree, just that this is their perception). So, they start the season with Andy in the minors and Phelps on the big club.

If it were me, I would keep Phelps on the club as a PH and send Basak down. But then, what do I know.

2007-06-19 17:09:34
24.   RIYank
16 Poor Jays. They must be seriously under-performing their PECOTA projection, huh?
2007-06-19 17:09:37
25.   mikeplugh
22 I agree, but I think the point is that the Yankees have zero good options for 1st right now, so whoever you put in there is likely to be a negative VORP kind of guy. Trading for someone like Hillenbrand would get you closer to replacement level, but at what cost.

Actually, I'd rather give Eric Duncan his shot in the Bronx, although he hasn't really earned it. Just try it out. It's time to doo doo or get off the pot with him.

2007-06-19 17:11:50
26.   nick
21 "it makes no difference"--wtf!?

if we can score ten runs a game with Cairo at first, I'll grant you your point. if not, it could easily cost us, say, two games in the standings--a HUGE difference, given where we are right now.....

sorry, but that "it makes no difference" pushes all my buttons--it just seems so thoughtless. we've already gone through one stretch this year where we had trouble scoring runs......

2007-06-19 17:13:37
27.   cult of basebaal
25 i agree, though i'd say i think that phillips can you closer to breaking even than cairo ever will ... hopefully joe will let him play consistently to find out what the team has in him ...

re: duncan, he's been dealing with some wrist problems, IIRC

2007-06-19 17:15:21
28.   cult of basebaal
and i'm not sure i want hillenbrand on the team, even if he is an actual improvement on what we're getting

he seemed like a pretty big douche when he was in toronto ...

2007-06-19 17:16:48
29.   RIYank
Hillenbrand averages a run more than Cairo in RC/27. But this year Shea is actually lower that Cairo's average year. If you think Hillenbrand is showing his downward slide, then he's no upgrade at all.
2007-06-19 17:18:41
30.   Cliff Corcoran
I'm so glad they have Chris Basak available as a pinch-hitter on this six-game road trip through the NL rather than Josh Phelps. No really. I'm frickin' delighted. No really. Why don't you believe me?
2007-06-19 17:21:57
31.   mikeplugh
That's my point. Nick, I understand it pushes your buttons, but bear with me for a second and think it through together.

It makes a slight difference when you consider that a game or two in the standings may rest on a few runs. The problem with that thinking is that we need to acquire a better player in all likelihood to assure that the runs we lose with either Cairo or Phillips are produced. That means giving something up. Is there anything out there that GUARANTEES that you will get those precious few runs that doesn't mean giving up a young player for a 6 month rental?

I think the answer is likely no. I also think that we are in serious serious trouble if we are worried about the few runs that Cairo or Phillips would cost us. If we can't win the wild card with the team we have, how will we expect to win the World Series. That's the goal isn't it? If things are so bleak that we are sweating Hillenbrand vs. Cairo/Phillips then we have to rethink our $200 million.

2007-06-19 17:25:42
32.   monkeypants
30 You and me 23 both, brother. You and me both.
2007-06-19 17:31:26
33.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
The thing that sucks about bringing Phillips up now, finally, is that while he was mashing earlier in the season, he seems to have hit a bit of slump recently. Iirc his avg has dropped fairly quickly over the last few weeks.

So instead of bringing up a hot, confident hitter, we bring up a guy who may well be pressing at Scranton, and who'll be pressing even more knowing it may be his last shot at the show.

He'll k 4 times in some game this week, Torre'll bury him, and the haters will get dey hate on . . . hmmm, this all seems so familiar . . .

2007-06-19 17:32:36
34.   cult of basebaal
32 especially with rumblings that damon won't start at all in the NL park games
2007-06-19 17:32:53
35.   RIYank
Oof, Beckett got out of a jam by getting Chipper to swing at ball four.
2007-06-19 17:36:34
36.   williamnyy23
Even if you like the move, the timing makes no sense. The Yankees should have sent Basak down and kept Phelps around to pinch hit while the team completes the NL schedule. Then, on Monday, they could have DA'ed Phelps.
2007-06-19 17:41:11
37.   monkeypants
36 What is this "pinch hitter" of which you speak? I know that the Yankees "get enough offense" from six spots in the starting line up; I know that they have defensive replacements, and back-up players who "don't need to hit". But I am unaccustomed to this term "pinch hitter" that you are throwing around. Would you please explain?
2007-06-19 17:42:55
38.   vockins
It's not the end of the world, but the Phelps move makes me a little nuts.

Signing Hillenbrand at any cost would make me very nuts. Screw that guy.

2007-06-19 17:47:21
39.   vockins
17 ...and 38donuts is getting an MRI:

2007-06-19 17:52:06
40.   mikeplugh
39 That's one of the reasons we had to keep some hope alive when all was bleak. The Sox are counting heavily on Wakefield and Schilling this season. Beckett and Matsuzaka are both young and strong and good. Wake and Schilling are both old. Wake is league average, and occasionally awful. Schilling is old and fat and has a recent history of breaking down at the most inopportune moments. If he's out for any period or even less effective, that's a great break for us.
2007-06-19 17:56:31
41.   mikeplugh
Johan Santana blanking the Mets through 6. Interesting thing is 3 hits, no walks, and NO Ks! When was the last time the big guy pulled that off. He's usually a lock for 8, 9, 10+ strikeouts. That's why they play the games...
2007-06-19 17:56:53
42.   RIYank
Beckett just doubled. Papi homered earlier (in an inning when the Sox got four base runners plus the homer and scored just once). And Cora tripled. Hudson isn't pitching well.
2007-06-19 18:00:22
43.   Count Zero
23 30 38 That move is just...stupefying. I cannot believe they would leave Basak on the roster.
2007-06-19 18:01:36
44.   Mattpat11
You ready for some fine Yankee baseball tonight?
2007-06-19 18:05:17
45.   Mattpat11
Andy Phillips is back? Oh, good. I missed AAAAndy
2007-06-19 18:06:35
46.   bob34957
Yes, ready for some rocky mt. high Arod A-bombs!!!!!
2007-06-19 18:09:16
47.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
7 pitch 1st for Fogg? Ouch.
2007-06-19 18:13:41
48.   Ravenscar
It's kind of sad to hear all these cheers for the Yankee defense in Colorado. Nice play by Jeter, though.
2007-06-19 18:14:33
49.   3rd gen yankee fan
DUDE, Posada, WOW!!!
2007-06-19 18:15:48
50.   seamus
49 what did jopa do?
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-06-19 18:19:01
51.   RIYank
Okay, that was scary.
2007-06-19 18:20:36
52.   mikeplugh
I may be late on this, but it just sank in. Cabrera, Nieves, and Mussina all hitting in an NL park. Ugh. Moose is there by rule. Cabrera leading off is tough. Nieves is almost inexcusable. How does he get to hit in front of the pitcher. Ooph. This is one situation that calls for Moose and Posada to hook up with anyone other than Nieves in the lineup at 1st. Put Mattingly out there. (I'm serious.)
2007-06-19 18:25:03
53.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Small sample size and all, but . . . Posada is now batting 1.000, and slugging 2.000 asa first baseman this year.
2007-06-19 18:29:18
54.   RIYank
2007-06-19 18:29:33
55.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
According to Gameday, Nieves swung at 4 pitches out of the zone. Fogg never threw him a strike.
2007-06-19 18:30:38
56.   mikeplugh
Aaaah Nieves. Just like batting another pitcher in the lineup. How fast can we get Zhenwang Zhang to Colorado? It's got to be, what, 16 hours from Canton to Denver.
2007-06-19 18:31:59
57.   RIYank
55 Uh. On mine, it says pitches 4 and 6 were in the strike zone.
2007-06-19 18:32:41
58.   monkeypants
52 But doesn't it make sense to call up a 1B, release a 1B, then play your starting C at 1B (benching your BUIF who is also now the starting 1B), just so your BUC with a <.200 OBP can start? And if you do that, you simply have to have the Nieves-Mussina-Cabrera trifecta batting 8-9-1.
2007-06-19 18:33:26
59.   mikeplugh
Santana: 8 IP, 3 hits, no walks, no Ks, no runs

81 pitches!

2007-06-19 18:33:29
60.   RIYank
56 What about that other teen, the Venezuelan? Monteiro?
2007-06-19 18:33:37
61.   Knuckles
Can we trade Suzyn for Charissa, straight up? It'd be a pure salary dump, right?
2007-06-19 18:34:10
62.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
57 looked out to me, though maybe you could say part of the ball was touching the zone, but still . . .
2007-06-19 18:34:13
63.   Mattpat11
I will say one thing about bringing up Phillips here. If there's anywhere to being AAAAndy up, its in Colorado. The breaking pitches don't break. Its just like AAA!
2007-06-19 18:34:58
64.   Mattpat11
59 Zero strikeouts?
2007-06-19 18:35:27
65.   mikeplugh
Santana gives up a hit and then strikes out LoDuca in the 9th for K #1. Too bad. Would have been interesting to see him pitch a CG with no strikeouts.
2007-06-19 18:35:54
66.   monkeypants
OK, Moose, now bring the lumber...
2007-06-19 18:36:48
67.   randym77
Wow, I wasn't expecting them to DFA Phelps. I thought they'd send Basak back down.

I always liked Andy Phillips. I'll be rooting for him.

I like Miggy, too, but I'm relieved that the Yanks realize he's best in small doses.

The hot rumor today is that the Yanks are interested in Griffey, but that doesn't make sense to me. I still think if the Yanks and Reds are talking, it's Scott Hatteberg on the block.

2007-06-19 18:37:38
68.   Yankees Brasil
60 Injured, likely out for the season... and he might not stick around at Catcher for long
2007-06-19 18:38:16
69.   Mattpat11
Ken Singleton played whiffleball with Mike Mussina's brother? The hell?
2007-06-19 18:38:24
70.   RIYank
62 I think it must be different on mine. Those two pitches are entirely within the zone! This really makes me skeptical about the Gameday location.
I don't have the enhanced version up, do you?
2007-06-19 18:39:34
71.   ny2ca2dc
I'll echo the 'send out Basak, not Phelps' sentiment.

67 or Dunn

2007-06-19 18:40:35
72.   Mattpat11
71 I'd like to start the "did we really need to make a move that involved promoting Andy Phillips?" sentiment
2007-06-19 18:42:03
73.   thelarmis
wow, scurt threw 81 pitches without a K yesterday also...

it's absolutely pouring here in the Atl. rain delay at The Ted...

2007-06-19 18:42:08
74.   3rd gen yankee fan
50 Sorry, I had to split. Posada made a great stretch on a fast throw from Jeter to get Tavares for the first out. And Tavares is FAST.
2007-06-19 18:43:09
75.   thelarmis
doh, i didn't see that santana finally got a punch out. i've got a million things going on at once here. the braves-sux game is now not one of them...
2007-06-19 18:44:06
76.   51cq24
69 i think he said that he's sure moose got some hits against his brother while playing wiffle ball.

70 i told you that zone isn't accurate.

2007-06-19 18:45:24
77.   seamus
74 oh. thanks.
2007-06-19 18:45:38
78.   mikeplugh
I think the rumor all along with the Yankees has been Griffey. Dunn and Hatteberg get circulated in the press a bit, but my understanding is that Griffey has been the mumbling behind the scenes. I could be way off, but I think that's the most likely scenario this year.
2007-06-19 18:46:41
79.   Mattpat11
Is Fogg doing the Texas Two Step?
2007-06-19 18:47:09
80.   randym77
71 Dunn is another hot rumor, but I really don't see how he fits in. He's awful at 1B. He doesn't have the range for CF. We don't need a DH, which is what the Reds fans seem to think is his destiny.
2007-06-19 18:47:27
81.   RIYank
Yeesh, cruddy at-bat.
Moose had better pitch his butt off today.
2007-06-19 18:49:26
82.   mikeplugh
80 I really think the Dunn thing is more for show at this point in the season. I think the Reds are trying to gauge value right now by floating some players, but they won't deal unless someone gives them silly value in return. It will be one of those fizzled rumor mills that reignites seriously at the deadline.
2007-06-19 18:49:35
83.   Max
78 So Griffey's old grudge agsinst the Yankees is ancient history? Or was that always pumped up by the media beyond what was really the case?
2007-06-19 18:50:14
84.   monkeypants
80 Why don't we need a DH? Damon is not going to hit enough for that position? Frankly, if we did acquire Griffey, he would spend a good bit of time at DH.
2007-06-19 18:50:24
85.   randym77
78 Really? Griffey? He doesn't seem to fit, either. I think Bernie Williams would play CF about as well as Junior does these days. And he's so injury prone it's not even funny.

And isn't Cashman trying to go younger? It's not like the Yanks need a star to get buns in the seats, like some teams. If the Reds trade Griffey, there will be tumbleweeds rolling through their bleachers the rest of the season.

2007-06-19 18:50:24
86.   51cq24
griffey is probably my favorite all time non yankee player but where would he play?
2007-06-19 18:50:40
87.   ny2ca2dc
78 & 80 where would Griffey play that Dunn couldn't? He's not a CF anymore, not by a longshot. If he's a DH, we already have an under performing one (Damon), and why would we get Griff to DH instead of Dunn???
2007-06-19 18:51:25
88.   Eirias
Ah, Kaz Matsui. The Rockies' resident actor.
2007-06-19 18:54:44
89.   Eirias
Mussina seems surprisingly comfortable, given his pitching in Colorado.
2007-06-19 18:54:52
90.   ny2ca2dc
JoPo would'a nailed that pitchout. (OKOK just blind Jorgie love, but whatever).
2007-06-19 18:55:59
91.   bob34957
Taveras stole second on a pitch out. Yanks need to do something about the first base thing. How can they be totally successful with a below the Mendozza line hitting catcher while also having a whole at 1st?
2007-06-19 18:56:03
92.   RIYank
Nice job by the Moose there.
2007-06-19 18:56:24
93.   51cq24
90 he did totally botch a pitch out against the mets, and it looks like taveras was probably out
2007-06-19 18:56:35
94.   mikeplugh
I know Griffey doesn't make a lot of sense, but that's something I've heard. You know how much George likes to add guys that are approaching milestones. If Cash Money is really 100% in charge, I don't see any of the deals in the press going down. If George is still alive, you have to wonder. I think it depends a lot on Giambi's health.
2007-06-19 18:56:59
95.   bobtaco
78 As a DH? Who do the Reds get?
2007-06-19 18:57:13
96.   3rd gen yankee fan
90 You know what, on the replay it's apparent that if Cano let the ball carry his glove backwards, they woulda got him. It was a good throw by Nieves.
2007-06-19 18:58:41
97.   randym77
84 I think the Yankees are better off using their DH spot as a rotating half-day vacation for the veterans.

And I really, really hope Andy does well and pushes out Minky...but realistically, I think the Yanks will be trading for a first baseman. Not a DH. Hatteberg has a good glove (he was Baseball Think Factory's GG pick last year), and has a better stick than Minky.

2007-06-19 18:59:01
98.   RIYank
89 He really is on top of things. Now comes the biggest at-bat of the game so far.
2007-06-19 18:59:19
99.   51cq24
96 i was thinking that cano saved that play and actually did tag him out on time. in slow motion its hard to tell how fast cano actually got that tag down on a tough scoop
2007-06-19 18:59:27
100.   ny2ca2dc
96 wasn't it a bouncer? ya can't bounce the throw on a pitchout...
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-06-19 19:02:06
101.   randym77
95 They're looking for a closer. How about Farnsworth?
2007-06-19 19:02:43
102.   Mattpat11
101 Do it.
2007-06-19 19:03:08
103.   Mattpat11
This isn't going well.
2007-06-19 19:03:23
104.   bobtaco
101 Deal!
2007-06-19 19:03:37
105.   Mattpat11
2007-06-19 19:04:13
106.   51cq24
ha farnsworth for griffey
2007-06-19 19:04:59
107.   mikeplugh
I hear Nieves and cash considerations for Griff. 1 billion dollars in cash considerations.
2007-06-19 19:06:06
108.   Mattpat11
106 Do it.
2007-06-19 19:06:07
109.   ny2ca2dc
107 lol
2007-06-19 19:07:24
110.   RIYank
Coulda been worse.
Gotta start cashing in now, though. Preferably before Nieves comes up...
2007-06-19 19:08:04
111.   pistolpete
I get the impression the Reds would take almost anyone to get rid of Griffey and his contract & history of injuries...

I would have killed to see Jr. in pinstripes about 7-8 years ago.

Now? meh.

2007-06-19 19:08:23
112.   ny2ca2dc
This gem from's article on Shill's MRI trip:

Since losing a no-hitter with two outs in the ninth inning in Oakland on June 7, Schilling is 0-2 with a 10.61 ERA. In those two starts, he's given up 19 hits over 9 1/3 innings.

AHHH, the big Schill with a >10ERA, life as it should be.

2007-06-19 19:09:39
113.   Mattpat11
111 The key is we'd be ridding ourselves of Worthless. Whatever we get is gravy.
2007-06-19 19:09:54
114.   Mattpat11
Well that was an ineffective inning.
2007-06-19 19:10:33
115.   ny2ca2dc
Apparently the Yanks are taking the 'hit a ton of pop ups and fly balls and one of em will go out' approach...
2007-06-19 19:11:47
116.   51cq24
113 griffey could be in a wheelchair and we wouldn't be able to get him for farnsworth. he'd also be more valuable
2007-06-19 19:12:33
117.   mikeplugh
111 I'm not saying I want him in pinstripes now, but as a DH he could contribute a lot, I think. That would mean that Giambi is out for the year though. Damon would have to play the field too. Melky would go back to a lesser role, which would hurt defensively.

In the end, there's no reason to do it. It isn't a need right now.

2007-06-19 19:14:48
118.   bobtaco
117 Anything taking Melky out of CF, short of getting Grady Sizemore, is not a good idea.
2007-06-19 19:15:07
119.   Mattpat11
117 I just look at it as a way to get rid of Krazy Kyle. Perhaps there are less expensive ways to do it.
2007-06-19 19:16:00
120.   monkeypants
117 The sad reality is that Damon probably needs to be benched, because if he can't play CF his bat isn't worth carrying at DH. But we all know that he's going to play one way or another, either because the FO demands it or because of Torre's penchant for veterans. So, in a rational world, Damon would become the BUOF, while the Yankees find a real DH or 1B. In the real world, Damon DHs and Andy Phillips backs up Cairo at 1B.
2007-06-19 19:17:00
121.   ny2ca2dc
some more man love: does any infield turn the double play better than our Yankee infield? Cano making the pivot really is a thing of beauty.
2007-06-19 19:17:43
122.   51cq24
120 can't we try to trade damon? we should have done it in the offseason
2007-06-19 19:18:32
123.   pistolpete
121 I'm sure there's a few, but Cano makes it looks so smooooooth.
2007-06-19 19:18:34
124.   3rd gen yankee fan
OT: Anyone else in KCMO? Check out the amazing sunset tonight.
2007-06-19 19:18:42
125.   mikeplugh
121 They seem to do it very very well. It's the routine plays that they botch.
2007-06-19 19:19:40
126.   monkeypants
122 Sure we can try. So, what is the market for an overpaid aging CF with a declining bat who can't run or play D?
2007-06-19 19:21:01
127.   51cq24
126 a 3rd tier prospect?
2007-06-19 19:21:44
128.   monkeypants
127 If that's all, then you might as well DFA him.
2007-06-19 19:21:59
129.   ny2ca2dc
126 and has a no-trade & made The Assent (left the Sux to come to the Yanks)
2007-06-19 19:22:20
130.   mikeplugh
In all seriousness, seriously, with all dues seriousness, on a serious note, can't we do better than Nieves? Can't Joe Girardi suit up, seriously? I'm mean, seriously, isn't there a warm body that could occasionally get on base and wear a catcher's mitt in the same contest? Seriously?
2007-06-19 19:22:26
131.   51cq24
maybe a backup catcher who hits over 100?
2007-06-19 19:23:17
132.   bob34957
the leche man delivers!!!!!!!
2007-06-19 19:23:22
133.   bobtaco
130 Sal is looking for a job.
2007-06-19 19:23:50
134.   51cq24
128 and 129 i think it's worth trying rather than designating him. a 3rd tier prospect is better than nothing. and isn't he such a great guy he'd waive the no trade clause?
2007-06-19 19:25:05
135.   ny2ca2dc
130 I hear Yogi Berra is stalking around the Yanks, maybe he's looking to suit up.

I'd trade Nieves & our 1B situation for a real 1B & Yogi BUCing in a second...

2007-06-19 19:25:39
136.   Max
126 I'm surprised no one commented (though maybe I missed it somewhere) on the crazy/funny/nonsensical scenarios Klapisch was proposing (in his Sunday column) if A-Rod walks after this season.

One option was trading Cano and Hughes for Miggy Cabrera. The other was acquiring Lowell and Andruw Jones in the off-season and dumping Damon (while eating a whole bunch of his salary).

2007-06-19 19:25:48
137.   monkeypants
130 Funny, when I bitched about Nieves earlier this year, I was told repeatedly that "we have enough offense" and that "he's fine for a BUC." Hmmm...I still think Phelps would have been a better option at BUC, and that is not because of my particular faith in Phelps picking up the tools of ignorance after so many years not squatting behind home plate.
2007-06-19 19:26:19
138.   pistolpete
Random OT post here, but I clicked on Alex's Amazon link to 'Stepping Up', and I had to laugh at the review currently sitting on top - the guy basically trashes the entire book and then proceeds to plug his OWN Curt Flood book that came out in April...

I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but that just seemed like a d!ck move.

2007-06-19 19:26:41
139.   thelarmis
game back on here in atlanta...

go braves!

2007-06-19 19:28:03
140.   ny2ca2dc
134 Jeez, isn't it a bit soon to be turning on Damon, the guy had an awesome year last year, and is banged up this year. If not for all the other injuries (Giambi, Matsui intially, Cano & Abreu's disapearance initially, etc) he'd have been DL'd and had some time to recover & revert to form. He'll make it back.

This goes back to the winter conversations about converting Matsui to 1B, moving Damon to LF & Melk to CF.... could still do that now, with Dunn (or Phelps, up until a few hours ago) at DH...

2007-06-19 19:28:25
141.   ieddyi
The bad news- Randy Johnson diagnosed with ANOTHER herniated disc in his lower back

The good news- one less thing for Jimmy Dean to complain about

2007-06-19 19:31:03
142.   51cq24
140 it's not that he can't hit, but he has no defensive value and i thought he was never needed from the beginning. jeter should be leading off.
2007-06-19 19:32:16
143.   51cq24
by the way, did anyone else hear john sterling exclaim "positively damonic!" when damon hit a home run on sunday? this was after "how arodian!" earlier in the game.
2007-06-19 19:32:36
144.   monkeypants
140 He had a frakishly good year last year--certainly an anomaly.Everyone knew his contract would suck at the back end, but we all hoped he would be good for three and bad for one, not the other wy around. You're more optimistic than me--I just don't see him coming back all that much in this stage of his career. At best we get one more decent season out of him with the bat; forget defense.
2007-06-19 19:32:37
145.   ny2ca2dc
142 I don't get this; except when he's banged up, Damon is, at worst, a league average CF, his arm notwithstanding.
2007-06-19 19:33:02
146.   tommyl
2007-06-19 19:33:04
147.   pistolpete
God, I knew it seemed like it was a matter of time before they took the lead...


2007-06-19 19:33:08
148.   Chyll Will
Nieves starring in "Worm Killer II: The Ugh"
2007-06-19 19:36:00
149.   bobtaco
Anyone want to estimate how much longer Moose is around for?
2007-06-19 19:36:44
150.   mikeplugh
Anyone notice that Kaz Matsui has actually been a very good player for the last 100 or so games? Slugging is still suspect, but he can play.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-06-19 19:37:32
151.   monkeypants
149 Well, it's an NL game, so we can pinch hit for him the next time up with Basak.
2007-06-19 19:38:37
152.   51cq24
142 his arm notwithstanding? how many guys will score from 3rd on pop ups to shallow center, or go 1st to 3rd on hard line drives to center, before you realize that that's a huge part of defense?
2007-06-19 19:39:30
153.   RIYank
It seems likely Moose will pitch just one more inning. Two runs over six in Coors is what you'd call good, except for the fact that the Bombers forgot to bring their Bombs.
2007-06-19 19:39:48
154.   cult of basebaal
144 ummm, by what measure?

his eqa for the last 3 years has been: .292, .292, .291

his WARP was 7.3, 6.0, 5.4

it seems nothing but premature to extrapolate from half a season in which damon has essentially been dinged up since the opening game

2007-06-19 19:40:02
155.   RIYank
152 Well, how many do? How huge a part is it?
2007-06-19 19:40:35
156.   51cq24
142 he was supposed to be a defensive upgrade over bernie. i know he's a little bit faster than bernie is now, but his arm is almost definitely even worse. and it's not like bernie was slow, just not that fast. and it looks like damon is getting slower. there was a game earlier this season where he couldn't catch 3 balls that he should have, or at least could have in years past.
2007-06-19 19:40:43
157.   cult of basebaal
151 Don't you forget Poland ... errr, Thompson!
2007-06-19 19:41:28
158.   ny2ca2dc
152 that is, including his shitty arm, he's still not a bad defensive CF. unless you can show me some metrics contrary to that, because all the ones I've seen say he's a decent CF, his shit arm not dooming him.
2007-06-19 19:42:47
159.   monkeypants
157 Who? I thought that kid was the bat boy.
2007-06-19 19:43:06
160.   51cq24
155 maybe gameday doesn't show the awful throws he makes from centerfield or else you wouldn't respond sarcastically. i don't have a stat on it, and i doubt any exist. but i know his arm is awful, and i know runs score because of it.
2007-06-19 19:44:10
161.   RIYank
I have to agree with ny2ca2dc. Damon's RATE2 this year is a nasty 113. He was at 95 last year, not good but not lousy.
2007-06-19 19:44:41
162.   pistolpete
Again - Josh Fogg?
2007-06-19 19:44:57
163.   tommyl
Oh c'mon, its Josh Fogg
2007-06-19 19:45:12
164.   51cq24
158 have defensive metrics advanced so much that they can now override what we see every day he plays in the field? is damon a valuable dh? that's his position right now
2007-06-19 19:46:29
165.   monkeypants
160, 158 His arm is irrelevant. He's so crippled that he has been essentially removed from the OF. He is so hobbled that he was taking throws at 1B. He is simply not a CF this year. the only question is whether he can come back as acredible CF next year, or if the nagging injuries are essentially permanent.
2007-06-19 19:46:31
166.   pistolpete
Who the Fogg is this guy to be holding the Yanks to 1 run through 6?
2007-06-19 19:47:08
167.   51cq24
161 if he's so good this year, why does he never play cf anymore? would you prefer his defense to melky's?
2007-06-19 19:47:15
168.   Max
So a flat out declaration that the other pitcher sucks isn't a jinx or anything, right? We've gone on to shell other pitchers that Cliff called sucky...right?
2007-06-19 19:48:26
169.   ny2ca2dc
164 What you're seeing in the field must diverge pretty widely with what the rest of the world sees, and what with every defensive metric shows, which is that Damon is a pretty decent CF. His arm sucks, but it's not that big of a deal for a CF, and doesn't make Damon worse than, here it comes, a pretty decent CF... anyway, this is getting tiresome, I can smell another 'but he throws like a girl' retort
2007-06-19 19:48:28
170.   51cq24
165 isn't his arm very relevant to whether he can come back as a credible cf?
2007-06-19 19:50:43
171.   RIYank
160 164
I get it. You have nothing at all to back up your assertions. No RATE2, no evidence about how many runs Damon's arm costs, nothing.

Okay, I'll take your own personal observations as gospel, that seems rational.

167 Exactly, that's what I said, that I'd prefer his defense to Melky's. Good reading.

2007-06-19 19:50:45
172.   cult of basebaal
165 there's really not any reason that Damon shouldn't have gone on the DL the moment we finished our series at home.

There's rumors he's not going to start any of the NL games, meaning if we DL'd him, we'd essentially get 6 of his 15 days off for free

we're rolling right now, and it's not because of anything he's doing. DL him and get him healthy ...

2007-06-19 19:51:01
173.   51cq24
169 an awful arm isn't that big a deal for a cf? why not? it's not just about throwing guys out at the plate. why was everyone so upset about bernie having a bad arm and now ok with damon's worse arm? come on. he throws like a girl.
2007-06-19 19:51:17
174.   thelarmis
with all this griffey talk, jr's ears were ringing and he slammed his 19th homer tonight. i don't want him now, but he still possesses my very favorite swing of all time...
2007-06-19 19:51:43
175.   Mattpat11
Mussina is pissed
2007-06-19 19:52:28
176.   Mattpat11
Nice play by Jorgie.
2007-06-19 19:53:00
177.   Shaun P
168 Yeah, the Yanks have shelled plenty of sucky pitchers this year. The game isn't over yet - and some more suspect parts of Colorado's bullpen may yet make an appearance. LaTroy Hawkins, anyone?
2007-06-19 19:53:17
178.   Mattpat11
2007-06-19 19:53:23
179.   ny2ca2dc
172 this is where i think his streak of not being on the DL comes in to play... kinda dumb macho stuff. I agree with you, DL him so he can heal up.

175 Hell ya, red up that ass.

2007-06-19 19:53:26
180.   tommyl
Um, double crap
2007-06-19 19:53:36
181.   RIYank
No way. Yoruit???
2007-06-19 19:53:55
182.   51cq24
171 you're right, RATE2 and gameday every game is more reliable than watching the game. i'm not an anti-stat person. but it seems to me that defensive stats, no matter what you call them, are not that reliable if they are telling you that damon's lack of an arm doesn't matter.
2007-06-19 19:53:55
183.   ny2ca2dc
awe fuck.
2007-06-19 19:55:26
184.   Mattpat11
The sad thing is it is, all said and done, a strong game by Mussina. We just can't hit Kirk Fogg.
2007-06-19 19:57:10
185.   weeping for brunnhilde
Hello, Team!

This is it, we gotta score a run or two this inning.

2007-06-19 19:58:54
186.   weeping for brunnhilde
Man, Robby's strong.

I'm amazed how far that ball travelled.

It didn't look like so much off the bat.

2007-06-19 19:58:57
187.   Mattpat11
2007-06-19 19:59:06
188.   tommyl
Let's go Andy!!!
2007-06-19 19:59:08
189.   JeremyM
This stinks, it's freaking Josh Fogg. Come on guys.
2007-06-19 19:59:25
190.   Mattpat11
189 Olmec is pleased.
2007-06-19 19:59:25
191.   51cq24
171 also, it strikes me that you should be the one telling me how many guys have scored because of damon's shitty arm. you're the one looking at RATE2 and relying on it rather than the game. surely it tells you things as big as that while rating defense.
2007-06-19 19:59:31
192.   mikeplugh
Here are the OPS+ numbers for the Japanese position players in the Majors in 2007. Iwamura is 3-3 today with a homer, so his will go up. Do you think Kosuke Fukudome's value could get any higher than it is right now as a free agent headed to the Major Leagues? Boston will be looking VERY hard at him, among others.

Ichiro Suzuki 138
Hideki Matsui 130
Kenji Johjima 121
Akinori Iwamura 118
Kazuo Matsui 113
Tadahito Iguchi 82
So Taguchi 115

2007-06-19 19:59:45
193.   RIYank
182 Nobody said his lack of arm doesn't matter. Try actually reading the postings.
You haven't come up with anything so far. All you can say is that everybody else in the world should defer to your personal experience of Johnny Damon. And you seem either surprised or angry when everybody doesn't.
2007-06-19 20:00:41
194.   monkeypants
170 Not really. He had a noodle arm when he was signed, and he still does. But when sign he could at least run down most balls hit in his direction. Now he can't walk. Cult is right 172, he should have been DLed to see if he can heal up. But if he can't get his wheels back, then his arm won't matter one way or another.
2007-06-19 20:01:00
195.   ny2ca2dc
Andy with the socks up! Looks like it's a trend this year, Manny Ramirez even took it up. Must all be looking for their inner A-Rod
2007-06-19 20:01:04
196.   Yankees Brasil
Andy doing what was expected of him..
2007-06-19 20:01:07
197.   RIYank
191 I was hoping you had something. You confidently asserted that it was a huge cost, so I was hoping (irrationally, as it turns out) that you had something to offer. Now I know better.
2007-06-19 20:01:08
198.   cult of basebaal

well, i hate to bring this up, but yes, there is statistical analysis about outfielder arms (seriously, it took me 30 seconds to find the relevant study, would it kill people to at least attempt to answer their own obvious questions around here?) ... and yes, damon's arm is just plain bad

and here's something similar from 2005, note that damon and williams were about equally awful

2007-06-19 20:01:20
199.   Schteeve
Andy Phillips.
2007-06-19 20:01:35
200.   monkeypants
Bench Phillips! Bring back Cairo!
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-06-19 20:01:39
201.   Mattpat11
I thought Colorado would be to AAAAndy's aaaadvantage. Maybe tomorrow.
2007-06-19 20:01:40
202.   seamus
so, now for the rocky bullpen? team looks sluggish. sometimes this happens.
2007-06-19 20:02:07
203.   mikeplugh
Don't worry people. Settle down. We're going to win this game. The pens are now going to get involved and we're going to make our late inning dramatics with no Nieves, and a PH due for the pitcher. This is where the Yankees show their ability.
2007-06-19 20:02:26
204.   51cq24
193 i don't know where to look for a stat that tells me how many guys have gone 1st to 3rd on damon, or how many have scored on sac flies to short center. do you? if so, why don't you share it and show me that i'm wrong. if not, then doesn't that prove the point that the stats you are looking at are not complete?
2007-06-19 20:02:28
205.   randym77
How's Aaron Guiel doing in the land of the rising sun?
2007-06-19 20:02:59
206.   Mattpat11
I would have left Mussina in. I don't even know whos in yet.
2007-06-19 20:03:55
207.   Mattpat11
Oh. Its Vizcaino. Well, Not Randy has been contributing lately.
2007-06-19 20:04:02
208.   Schteeve
Latroy Hawkins is a disaster. We win if he comes in.
2007-06-19 20:04:16
209.   Shaun P
182 IIRC, someone at The Hardball Times, or maybe it was Baseball Prospectus, looked at runners thrown out by all the OF positions and judged how good and bad everyone was. I don't have time now, but if someone could find that, you'd be a lot closer to figuring this out.

OTOH, Rate2 is a nifty stat, but a play-by-play based stat, like the +/- in the Fielding Bible, might be a bit more telling. Anyone have a copy of the '07 Fielding Bible handy?

My own guess is that there are so few situations where Damon's arm comes into play to prevent runs, that ultimately his crappy arm doesn't matter too much. But that's just speculation on my part.

2007-06-19 20:04:23
210.   JeremyM
206 Don't worry, just Vizcaino!

It does seem like he's been good lately, but I'm probably wrong.

2007-06-19 20:04:24
211.   cult of basebaal
204 here's a hint, try typing something obvious, like "runner advancement outfield arms" into google ... it's amazing what things the inter-tubes will bring you
2007-06-19 20:04:47
212.   seamus
207 he is pitching. notrandy pitches. randy sits on the DL. :)
2007-06-19 20:05:20
213.   monkeypants
Ok, enough talk of Damon. Here's a serious question--will Nieves get the DFA treatment? If so, how much longer with him on the roster? Any takers?
2007-06-19 20:05:51
214.   ny2ca2dc
203 Thanks Mike, I needed that. Echoing 205, how is our old friend Guiel doing? Always liked that guy, he was the unexpected reasonably pleasant surprise to offset the mild disappointment that was Craig Wilson.
2007-06-19 20:06:09
215.   Mattpat11
212 And the debate rages as to who helps the team more.
2007-06-19 20:06:58
216.   Shaun P
198 That's exactly what I was talking about! I've got to start typing faster. =)
2007-06-19 20:07:13
217.   Mattpat11
Kaz looked silly there.
2007-06-19 20:07:19
218.   RIYank
198 Thanks.
So, Damon's arm seems to have cost about five runs last year. That's not surprising. This year his coverage of CF was on track to save 13 runs, though probably he wouldn't have actually done that since he'd never done it before. All told, he's likely to be a slightly below average CFer.
2007-06-19 20:07:23
219.   weeping for brunnhilde
That was a fine play by Melky.

What is it with "It's Tricky?" The independent league game we saw earlier tonight played the song and tonight it's at Coors Field.

And I hadn't heard it in years.

Is there currently some Run-DMC revival I'm not aware of?

2007-06-19 20:07:30
220.   51cq24
211 ok good job you found someone's formula that shows that damon's arm sucks. you don't have to be a dick.
2007-06-19 20:07:37
221.   Start Spreading the News
I just tuned in. Am I reading it wrong but do the Yanks have only one run in Colorado?

Are you kidding me????

2007-06-19 20:07:43
222.   Schteeve
Kaz Matsui is terrible.
2007-06-19 20:08:04
223.   ny2ca2dc
nice shot of Mo picking his teeth. how flattering.
2007-06-19 20:09:03
224.   Mattpat11
If NotRandy continues on like this, I can go from "We traded Randy Johnson for a shitty middle reliever?" to "We traded Randy Johnson for a middle reliever?"

And yes, I'm aware of the borderline fifth starter and utility player we got in the deal. That made it less impressive.

2007-06-19 20:09:25
225.   randym77
213 We may be stuck with him. I think they know Nieves doesn't cut it...but who will replace him? There's a shortage of catchers in baseball these days.
2007-06-19 20:10:05
226.   Schteeve
224 We traded the cranky, unreliable Ghost of Randy Johnsons Past for whoever.
2007-06-19 20:10:18
227.   RIYank
209 I agree, I think RATE2 is useful over large numbers of innings, but I'd rather have that Fielding Bible analysis for a season or half season or whatever.
2007-06-19 20:10:50
228.   ny2ca2dc
224 you jinxed it. It's still "We traded Randy Johnson for a MEDIOCRE/BAD/POOR middle reliever?"

220/211 Right, cult of basebaal is the dick. cool.

2007-06-19 20:11:23
229.   monkeypants
225 Well, I assume that anyone would be better--that includes whatever dreg is at AAA or the recently DFAed Fasano.
2007-06-19 20:11:32
230.   weeping for brunnhilde
Ok, Team, here we go.

It's time to scratch out a couple of runs.

2007-06-19 20:11:39
231.   RIYank
224 NotNotRandy is pulling a Pavano, however.
2007-06-19 20:12:19
232.   ny2ca2dc
229 Man I hate those kind of assumptions... There's always something worse.
2007-06-19 20:12:21
233.   Schteeve
We should get Peerzinskee, when the White Sox firesale gets under way.
2007-06-19 20:12:31
234.   RIYank
231 Ack! Sorry. Or is it okay to use that word as a common noun?
2007-06-19 20:12:37
235.   Mattpat11
231 Someone's getting blown and crashing into a garbage truck?
2007-06-19 20:12:54
236.   Schteeve
Helton looks like the white Baron Davis.
2007-06-19 20:13:19
237.   Mattpat11
232 Eh, I'm not so sure.
2007-06-19 20:13:41
238.   ny2ca2dc
231/234 NotNotRandy = IsRandy ~= Pavano. Word.
2007-06-19 20:13:45
239.   51cq24
228 no, i'm the dick because i think that johnny damon's arm makes him a bad centerfielder, and i didn't do a google search to find some random website to back it up.
2007-06-19 20:15:07
240.   Mattpat11
Its an insult to any baseball player to compare him to Carl Pavano.

A man, you will note, that we didn't trade for a middle reliever because we wanted some kind of value. But thats neither here nor there.

2007-06-19 20:15:23
241.   Schteeve
I haven't been here for all of this Johnny Damon stuff, but I'm sick of it. Can we all shut our pieholes about Damon already?
2007-06-19 20:15:53
242.   mikeplugh
205 Guiel has a .240ish average but has a very good OBP and is hitting home runs fairly often as he's gotten comfortable. It seems he'll never be a high average hitter, but he's not chasing bad pitches in Japan most of the time.

222 Kaz Matsui is hardly terrible since going to Colorado. He's currently tied for 11th in the Majors for 2nd baseman VORP. He also missed a bunch of time with an injury so that number would be a lot better given more playing time.

2007-06-19 20:16:07
243.   Yankees Brasil
Myers never seems to get a LH batter out..
2007-06-19 20:16:09
244.   51cq24
241 well now we get to see his 1b skills apparently. i hope he doesn't have to make a throw.
2007-06-19 20:16:39
245.   RIYank
I'd forgotten for a moment what Myers' job was. Now I remember. He's the specialist at walking lefty power hitters.
2007-06-19 20:16:42
246.   Schteeve
Unless people are enjoying it, and then I'm the dick!
2007-06-19 20:16:59
247.   JeremyM
I don't like the bullpen handling this inning, knowing we're going to have to pinch hit next inning for the reliever.
2007-06-19 20:17:17
248.   Schteeve
243 He struck out Carlos Delgado on Sunday night to end the game.
2007-06-19 20:18:08
249.   ny2ca2dc
240 You're right, we've probably gone to far. the Big eUnuch is still a HOFer, and all that, and Pavano is still singularly ghoulish, the main character in Mattpat11 & all Yankee fans' nightmares (Kevin Brown makes the occasional cameo for flava).
2007-06-19 20:18:40
250.   monkeypants
232 Well, I can't imagine much worst than a sub-.300 OPS, but I'll take your word for it.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-06-19 20:19:01
251.   mikeplugh
I don't know if anyone mentioned it but Griffey homered again today.
2007-06-19 20:19:01
252.   monkeypants
250 Worse, that is.
2007-06-19 20:19:37
253.   JeremyM
To my mind, to justify having a LOOGY on your roster, he needs to do his job about 90% of the time. Maybe that's a bit high, but I really just don't see the justification for it. I appreciate that he's ate some innings this year, but geez.
2007-06-19 20:19:40
254.   Schteeve
242 11th in positional VORP? Yawn. His OBP is still like, below .350. He's no Neifi! but I still think he pretty much sucks.
2007-06-19 20:19:54
255.   Max
239 That's the best assessment of the situation you've made in this entire thread. Now chill, dude.

RIYank and the others are good guys, even where there's disagreement. There can be pleasant ways to agree to disagree (and many people do that here), but name-calling seems easier for you.

2007-06-19 20:20:09
256.   RIYank
248 It's just so damn annoying when he comes in to face the lefty slugger, and walks him.
2007-06-19 20:20:27
257.   weeping for brunnhilde
Beautiful play, Alex.

Nicely done.

2007-06-19 20:20:48
258.   Schteeve
242 You are also making an assumption that in a larger sample he'd be better. Not sure that can be assumed.
2007-06-19 20:20:53
259.   pistolpete
253 Right - you mean to tell me there's no one on the roster who has decent enough numbers against lefties to jettison Myers?
2007-06-19 20:21:11
260.   Mattpat11
249 I have a hell of a lot more respect for Brown than I do Pavano. Brown tried.
2007-06-19 20:21:20
261.   weeping for brunnhilde
245 :)
2007-06-19 20:21:48
262.   thelarmis
251 see 174 yeah, jr. hit his 19th tonite. i think he's 1 away from tying big mac...
2007-06-19 20:21:49
263.   RIYank
{Long breath}
Okay, this would be a good inning to get a couple of baserunners and then sit on a hanging curve.
2007-06-19 20:24:27
264.   mikeplugh
254 Last season he had a .392 OBP for Colorado. This year he had a .395 in April, a .242 in May when he had back problems, and now has a .373 in June. He doesn't suck. He's figured something out in Colorado, and is a legitimate Major League player now.

April .361/.395/.472
May .219/.242/.344
June .351/.373/.579

His sample size from last season, plus the two good months this season when he's been healthy are the real Kaz Matsui. It just took him a while.

2007-06-19 20:24:31
265.   randym77
229 I'm not sure he's not better than whoever is at AAA. He beat out whoever is at AAA to be the starter for the Clippers last year/the backup with the big club this year.

We shoulda grabbed Chad Moeller when the Reds DFA'd him earlier this year. He sucks, but he's better than Nieves. Maybe they'll throw him in on the Griffey deal. ;-)

I sure wish we hadn't traded Dioner Navarro for the Unit.

242 Thanks! I liked Guiel. Didn't really want him back this year, but I hope he does well. Anyone who hung around the minors ten years waiting for his chance deserves some reward.

2007-06-19 20:25:19
266.   weeping for brunnhilde
Let's go, Leche!
2007-06-19 20:25:23
267.   RIYank
How can we have so many fly balls and so few of them hits???
2007-06-19 20:25:28
268.   ny2ca2dc
OK boys, lets get it going, remember the formula for success, men on base + A-Rod = das it.

Villone warming, at least this will give a chance to see what he's got before they have to decide which reliever to dump.

2007-06-19 20:25:56
269.   weeping for brunnhilde

Nice job, Melk, nice job!

2007-06-19 20:26:13
270.   Schteeve
264 Would you take Matsui for Cano straight up?
2007-06-19 20:26:41
271.   RIYank
266 Melk figured it out. Keep the ball close to the ground.
2007-06-19 20:26:50
272.   cult of basebaal
c'mon cap'n
2007-06-19 20:27:12
273.   51cq24
255 i only called someone a name when he made the second of 2 obnoxious comments about doing a google search for something i already knew without having to check stats. and he happened to be linking to something that backed up what i was arguing the whole time. but he did it very rudely.
also, i'm not against stats in any way, but when most of us watch every single yankee game, do we really have to look up stats to show that damon's arm is awful and hurts the yankees?
2007-06-19 20:27:22
274.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh, Derek.

How could you look at that pitch.

Damn it.

2007-06-19 20:27:37
275.   ny2ca2dc
265 Navarro, who I like still, has pretty much disappeared as a MLB player this year...

Paging Franky Cervilli... Please hurry it up...

2007-06-19 20:28:10
276.   mikeplugh
270 That's a silly question Schteeve. Matsui is much older, has a bad back from time to time, and is much more highly paid. Plus that's a false choice. Your trade scenario does nothing to determine whether Kaz Matsui "sucks" as you put it, or not. Cano is a much better player, but Kaz Matsui hardly sucks right now.
2007-06-19 20:29:00
277.   seamus
what is with all the angst on here today?
2007-06-19 20:29:20
278.   weeping for brunnhilde
Damn it.

All these fly balls.

2007-06-19 20:29:47
279.   bobtaco
Bobby Walk - Arod HR
2007-06-19 20:29:55
280.   ny2ca2dc
god, 'high fly ball' should just be on repeat for the play by play...
2007-06-19 20:29:55
281.   JeremyM
277 This always happens here when the Josh Fogg's of the world pitch a good game. It's definitely frustrating!
2007-06-19 20:31:12
282.   RIYank
281 Did he really pitch a good game? Or did our batters just screw up chances? I'm inclined toward the latter.
2007-06-19 20:31:39
283.   Schteeve
276 Grown men running around and hitting balls with sticks is also silly, old bean. So spare me the sanctimonious crap, would you?

Just kidding. :) I meant the question to be silly. I'm a silly person, dontchaknow.

2007-06-19 20:31:55
284.   weeping for brunnhilde


It went through!!

Come on, Alex!

2007-06-19 20:32:02
285.   ny2ca2dc
282 Let's call it a draw, 50/50.
2007-06-19 20:32:17
286.   mikeplugh
Here we go!
2007-06-19 20:32:17
287.   RIYank
Somehow it all seems to come down to...
2007-06-19 20:32:22
288.   seamus
nice hit by abreu. c'mon arod!
2007-06-19 20:32:34
289.   51cq24
282 i agree, it's like the game on friday, jumping on 1st pitches and showing no patience
2007-06-19 20:32:58
290.   Schteeve
Believe if you look up "Seeing Eye Single" in the MLB Dictionary, you see a video of that ball Bobby just hit.
2007-06-19 20:32:58
291.   ny2ca2dc
time for the BLAST part of the bloop & a blast
2007-06-19 20:33:07
292.   mikeplugh
283 You crack me up. ;)
2007-06-19 20:33:12
293.   weeping for brunnhilde
I think he's a little eager.
2007-06-19 20:33:24
294.   pistolpete
Up to you Alex - it always seems to be this way in '07
2007-06-19 20:33:33
295.   weeping for brunnhilde
Good eye, Alex.
2007-06-19 20:33:51
296.   Mattpat11
277 Not a big fan of losing to the creepy host from LotHT
2007-06-19 20:34:04
297.   weeping for brunnhilde
Good job, Alex.

Take the walk.

2007-06-19 20:34:33
298.   seamus
wants nothing to do with arod.
2007-06-19 20:34:48
299.   Chyll Will
2007-06-19 20:34:49
300.   pistolpete
Oh well, it's up to Hip Hip...
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-06-19 20:34:54
301.   Mattpat11
298 Would you?
2007-06-19 20:34:57
302.   weeping for brunnhilde

It's on you, Jorgie!

Basehit up the middle, that's all we need.

Solid contact!

2007-06-19 20:35:03
303.   mikeplugh
Hip Hip........
2007-06-19 20:35:12
304.   seamus
there was nothing even close there.
2007-06-19 20:35:28
305.   RIYank
Uh. A part of me is disappointed.
But okay, I'll take this!
2007-06-19 20:35:40
306.   seamus
301 no. smartest move we've seen ina while.
2007-06-19 20:36:03
307.   Mattpat11
Posada is 5 for 13 with a 2B and HR against Hawkins. 2 BB 3 K
2007-06-19 20:36:19
308.   weeping for brunnhilde
291 Let's not get greedy, we don't need a blast, just a couple of singles.
2007-06-19 20:36:33
309.   pistolpete
Posada lifetime vs. Hawkins - .385, 1 HR out of 5 hits
2007-06-19 20:36:37
310.   RIYank
302 I'm holding out for a double.
2007-06-19 20:36:52
311.   pistolpete
307 Damn, beat me to it..
2007-06-19 20:36:53
312.   pistolpete
307 Damn, beat me to it..
2007-06-19 20:37:14
313.   pistolpete
312 Not sure how I did that!
2007-06-19 20:37:21
314.   Mattpat11
Matsui is 1 for 1 with a 2b, FWIW.
2007-06-19 20:37:21
315.   weeping for brunnhilde
310 I'd take it.

Just no lazy fly balls here, thank you very much.

2007-06-19 20:37:46
316.   tommyl
Just need a single Jorge.
2007-06-19 20:38:10
317.   weeping for brunnhilde

Watch it there, pitcher!

2007-06-19 20:38:12
318.   Yankees Brasil
If they can't get that run against Hawkins then they don't deserve to win
2007-06-19 20:38:14
319.   Mattpat11
I'll take a walk here.
2007-06-19 20:38:27
320.   weeping for brunnhilde
Ooh, good pitch on the outside corner.
2007-06-19 20:38:51
321.   pistolpete
Kay's an idiot - there was never a Yankees chant - he just thought he heard 'Yankees' - it's "Rockies"
2007-06-19 20:39:03
322.   51cq24
that was outside
2007-06-19 20:39:09
323.   weeping for brunnhilde
Two good pitches on the outside corner.

Protect, Jorgie, protect!

2007-06-19 20:39:09
324.   Mattpat11
Okay. Taking that pitch irritated me.
2007-06-19 20:40:03
325.   RIYank
One of those games.
2007-06-19 20:40:07
326.   weeping for brunnhilde
324 I guess he was looking for something to pull.
2007-06-19 20:40:13
327.   pistolpete
2007-06-19 20:40:25
328.   weeping for brunnhilde
Damn it.

Well, he hit it hard.

Nothing to do about that.

2007-06-19 20:40:42
329.   Mattpat11
Posada taking that 0-1 pitch is going to be one of the things we look back on.
2007-06-19 20:40:57
330.   mikeplugh
2007-06-19 20:41:11
331.   RIYank
326 They gave him the 1B line. But he wasn't pulling, in fact, and he hit it hard. Grrrrr.
2007-06-19 20:41:35
332.   51cq24
329 it was outside
2007-06-19 20:41:38
333.   monkeypants
No problem--I'm confident going to war with the bottom of our line-up and our bench, down two in the ninth.
2007-06-19 20:42:14
334.   Yankees Brasil
All the balls today we hit right at defenders... it sucks
2007-06-19 20:42:24
335.   weeping for brunnhilde
That was a great ab. Not much better you can hit a ball with two strikes, especially after those two on the corner.

In years past Jorgie would have been much easier to strike out in that spot, say, with a breaking ball in the dirt.

He's really having some season.

2007-06-19 20:42:45
336.   RIYank
Somehow it seemed like we were in good shape there! But even Posada was 2 to 1 against to get a hit, don't forget.
2007-06-19 20:43:10
337.   Yankees Brasil
334 were* hit
2007-06-19 20:43:59
338.   RIYank
333 This particular bottom of our line-up is pretty damn good.
2007-06-19 20:44:03
339.   Mattpat11
324 Actually, I think it was one of Posada's few huge flaws reoccurring. He's very stubborn. If Posada disagrees with an umps called strike, he'll take that pitch until the cows come home, proving some perverted point.

The worst ever instance I can think of was a game against Boston at the fens two years ago. He took a curve for strike one, turned around, bitched. Took a curve for strike two, same exact spot. Turned around, bitched. Took the same damn pitch, bitched, and walked way.

2007-06-19 20:44:43
340.   weeping for brunnhilde
336 We were in good shape. Another foot or two towards the middle and it's a tie game right now.

Game of inches and all that.

2007-06-19 20:44:53
341.   51cq24
334 yeah but a lot of them were pop ups
2007-06-19 20:44:55
342.   RIYank
Here's the quiz question: who pinch hits for Bruney in the top of the ninth?
2007-06-19 20:45:43
343.   51cq24
339 would you prefer him to swing at pitches he thinks are balls?
2007-06-19 20:46:01
344.   pistolpete
I really hate the prospect of giving another game back here tonight - especially after gaining 6 in about two weeks...
2007-06-19 20:46:46
345.   RIYank
Every time I see Torrealba's name, I think "JoeJessica".
2007-06-19 20:47:02
346.   Yankees Brasil
341 not really
2007-06-19 20:47:20
347.   seamus
screaching person is annoying.
2007-06-19 20:47:26
348.   Mattpat11
332 Outside of what?
2007-06-19 20:47:32
349.   pistolpete
Someone please throw a slice of pizza at the woman (or child whose voice hasn't changed yet) who feels compelled to shriek "throw it" just as the Yankees' pitchers push off the mound.
2007-06-19 20:47:47
350.   51cq24
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-06-19 20:48:01
351.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh my God he's good.

Sweet Jesus.

2007-06-19 20:48:44
352.   seamus
349 we're on the same page.
2007-06-19 20:48:48
353.   Mattpat11
345 Every time I see his name I think of him slow dancing with A-Rod at The Dugout.
2007-06-19 20:48:53
354.   monkeypants
338 But it's the deep bench that has me jazzed.
2007-06-19 20:49:15
355.   51cq24
348 you didnt see the catcher move his glove back into the strike zone? the camera isn't from direct centerfield
2007-06-19 20:49:38
356.   Mattpat11
343 I prefer he swings at pitches that the umpire has established are strikes.
2007-06-19 20:49:41
357.   weeping for brunnhilde
347 "Throowww it!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

That screeching person?

Yeah, it's so, dare I say it, bush-sounding.

2007-06-19 20:50:17
358.   thelarmis
344 i hear ya. we really need to kick ass on this road trip and try and gain some ground.
2007-06-19 20:50:46
359.   Mattpat11
354 Deep Bench?
2007-06-19 20:51:31
360.   51cq24
356 yeah, but i'd prefer he swings at pitches he thinks he can hit. the one you're talking about looked outside, and even if it wasn't it was not a great pitch to hit
2007-06-19 20:51:47
361.   Mattpat11
355 No, in fact, I didn't. I saw a virtual carbon copy of strike one.
2007-06-19 20:51:58
362.   monkeypants
359 Hello, Basak. Duh! get with the program.
2007-06-19 20:52:25
363.   RIYank
354 I know, I know.
So, who will hit for Bruney? I'm betting on Cairo.
2007-06-19 20:52:40
364.   weeping for brunnhilde
Come on, Hideki!

Poke it into left!

2007-06-19 20:53:19
365.   Mattpat11
360 I'd prefer he not bury himself in two strike counts.
2007-06-19 20:53:25
366.   weeping for brunnhilde

Damn it.

2007-06-19 20:53:33
367.   RIYank
364... or drill it to right...
2007-06-19 20:53:57
368.   RIYank
2007-06-19 20:54:13
369.   weeping for brunnhilde

Oh my God, Hideki!!

Better than a poke into left!!


2007-06-19 20:54:13
370.   Mattpat11
Does Kay watch the same game we do?
2007-06-19 20:54:14
371.   pistolpete
Ok, near miss on the HR but I'll take the follow-up attempt.
2007-06-19 20:54:27
372.   seamus
2007-06-19 20:54:35
373.   thelarmis
2007-06-19 20:54:35
374.   RIYank
A walk will do, Rob...
2007-06-19 20:54:36
375.   weeping for brunnhilde
Ok, Team, we have to win this game, I can taste it.
2007-06-19 20:54:58
376.   51cq24
361 it was further outside, and the catcher did pull his glove back in.

robbie is SUCKING

2007-06-19 20:55:04
377.   weeping for brunnhilde
Damn it.


2007-06-19 20:55:07
378.   Mattpat11
Nice AB there Robbie. Jeez.
2007-06-19 20:55:12
379.   Shaun P
C'mon Robbie . . .

I was thinking that Thompson could pinch hit for Bruney. You'd want a fast righty up against Fuentes.

2007-06-19 20:55:18
380.   pistolpete
Damn it - if Fuentes had gotten a piece of it, Cano prolly makes it.
2007-06-19 20:55:18
381.   cult of basebaal
c'mon, robbie ... time to channel canobi-wan
2007-06-19 20:55:30
382.   weeping for brunnhilde
Come on, Miggy, work that Miggy Magic we've all come to love!
2007-06-19 20:55:35
383.   RIYank
Damn, he didn't hear me.
But ahem, 363.
2007-06-19 20:55:51
384.   Mattpat11
376 Sure. I'm just watching a different game. I established that on the clearly foul ball that Kay was screaming about.
2007-06-19 20:55:57
385.   thelarmis
it's time for The Migg to do his thing...
2007-06-19 20:55:59
386.   cult of basebaal
argh ... in the time it took to write and post that, robbie makes out
2007-06-19 20:56:09
387.   51cq24
370 do the yes directors watch the game at all?
2007-06-19 20:56:27
388.   Shaun P
OK Miggy Mantle, do your thing. Please.

374 Any non-out event will do, really. ;)

2007-06-19 20:56:35
389.   weeping for brunnhilde
2-1, nice job, Miggy, work it.
2007-06-19 20:56:38
390.   Mattpat11
Come on Miggy. Reach on an error.
2007-06-19 20:57:24
391.   weeping for brunnhilde
Damn it.

Damn it.

Damn it.

2007-06-19 20:57:31
392.   pistolpete
Ok, the Cairo experiment officially ends tonight. No?
2007-06-19 20:57:43
393.   Mattpat11
This game really pissed me off. This was a 2007 Yankees game.
2007-06-19 20:57:46
394.   RIYank
We Want a Non-Out Event!
We Want a Non-Out Event!
2007-06-19 20:57:53
395.   monkeypants
What a luxury to be able to bring your starting 1B off the bench to PH late!
2007-06-19 20:58:04
396.   thelarmis
2007-06-19 20:58:13
397.   51cq24
if he gets a hit here i'll forgive him for his girly arm
2007-06-19 20:58:23
398.   seamus
394 gamedaying it? it is a weird thing to sit there and hope for those letters.
2007-06-19 20:58:26
399.   Shaun P
Alright Damon, its all on you here.

Who replaced Miggy Mantle with Miggy Minky? Dammit.

2007-06-19 20:58:28
400.   Schteeve
Come on Noodle Arm
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2007-06-19 20:58:36
401.   cult of basebaal
well, at least he made them throw him out, good things happen when you force the defense to make plays, right?
2007-06-19 20:58:45
402.   Mattpat11
392 In favor of the Andy Phillips Experiment 2: Electric Bugaloo?

I think that may be a lateral move.

2007-06-19 20:58:48
403.   weeping for brunnhilde
Why is Damon swinging through 91 right over the plate?
2007-06-19 20:58:52
404.   pistolpete
Weak flare to left, Johnny - that's all we need.
2007-06-19 20:59:06
405.   Shaun P
394 That's what I'm talkin' about! Now, who will stand and deliver?
2007-06-19 20:59:28
406.   51cq24
nice swing
2007-06-19 20:59:28
407.   weeping for brunnhilde
401 Right.
2007-06-19 20:59:43
408.   RIYank

One of those games. Carp.

We'll have to light 'em up tomorrow. See youse.

2007-06-19 20:59:54
409.   Schteeve
awful game.
2007-06-19 21:00:05
410.   monkeypants
Didn't the Yankees used to have a guy who throughout his career crushed LHP? I think his name was Felps or something.
2007-06-19 21:00:12
411.   Mattpat11
Well, miserable, embarrassing effort from almost everyone involved tonight.

There's always tomorrow.

2007-06-19 21:00:20
412.   weeping for brunnhilde
392 I hope not.
2007-06-19 21:00:27
413.   Yankees Brasil
Now those were 2 very good at-bats to end the game..

damnit, horrible game

2007-06-19 21:00:27
414.   seamus
damn. we always struggle in the first game of these trips. reminds me of that game in chicago a couple of weeks back.
2007-06-19 21:00:35
415.   cult of basebaal
well, that was entertaining ... like a bad acid flashback to the time before HA!
2007-06-19 21:00:36
416.   tommyl
Do they play that music after every pitch? Jesus that's annoying.
2007-06-19 21:00:53
417.   pistolpete




Fogg it all, I'm going to bed. Let's blow em out tomorrow.

2007-06-19 21:00:59
418.   Shaun P
Is someone keeping a tally of the number of "one of those games" games? Its getting to be an awfully big number.

C'est la vie.

2007-06-19 21:01:11
419.   Mattpat11
414 Reminds me of the first two months.
2007-06-19 21:01:49
420.   weeping for brunnhilde
Actually, Team, I don't think it was so awful as all that.

Frustrating, yes, but we were tight defensively and Moose pitched another nice game.

We'll win the series, don't worry.

2007-06-19 21:03:07
421.   51cq24
420 at some point, just winning series won't cut it
2007-06-19 21:03:21
422.   Mattpat11
420 The Yankees couldn't hit Olmec or Latroy Hawkins.

That's awful.

2007-06-19 21:03:27
423.   JeremyM
Well, that was a game where you saw all of the Yankees offensive weaknesses on display--Nieves batting, Cano with no patience or discipline, an extraordinarily bad bench, etc. Get 'em tomorrow.
2007-06-19 21:03:39
424.   monkeypants
And it was nice to see Basak contribute tonight, too. You could really see all the roster moves falling into place tonight.
2007-06-19 21:05:14
425.   mikeplugh
That's a tough loss. Red Sox win. Detroit wins. Minnesota wins. Yankees lose. Bad night to lose.

No more Nieves, please. Not that it was his fault, but he certainly didn't help the cause. 0-2 and batting .116 makes you a scapegoat when things don't work on any given night. Posada, Jeter, and A-Rod actually left more guys on base.

2007-06-19 21:05:20
426.   51cq24
424 is cashman making these decisions? why is phillips here? cairo has shown that he can play very good defense at 1b. we need 2 defensive 1bs who can't hit?
2007-06-19 21:06:44
427.   Mattpat11
426 I think the Yankees feel if we all sit around and wait patiently, after 400 AB or so, Phillips will figure out the breaking pitch and become Mantle.
2007-06-19 21:07:23
428.   weeping for brunnhilde
423 Also, and I'm really not trying to be provocative, but you saw two poor at-bats by Alex resulting in two strike outs. He swung at what he should take and vice versa. It's ok, I'm not mad at him or anything, but I think he displayed his particular weakness as well. In days past, he doesn't strike out both of those times but rather puts the ball in play hard and has a good chance to get at least another single like the one he got in his first AB.

That's also the difference in the game, I think.

2007-06-19 21:08:04
429.   51cq24
i'm really getting sick of cano swinging at every pitch and grounding out or popping up
2007-06-19 21:08:06
430.   Schteeve
421 Actually if they win 2 of 3 in all their remaining series, that would put them at 97 or 98 wins and I think that might be enough to win the division.
2007-06-19 21:09:36
431.   Schteeve
428 What about the walk he took in the 8th? Should he have gone outside the zone there? I think his plate discipline has been phenomenal of late.
2007-06-19 21:09:42
432.   51cq24
430 i'd prefer them to sweep the bad teams so that they can afford to lose some series to the good ones
2007-06-19 21:09:58
433.   cult of basebaal
430 winning 2 of 3 and splitting 4 game series adds up to 94 wins
2007-06-19 21:10:16
434.   weeping for brunnhilde
429 I know, I'm developing something of a Soriano-like relationship with him.

He's testing my faith, but I really want to believe in him and want him to succeed.

He's got so much talent that I think it would just be tragic to see him wind up a mediocre player.

He could be great.

2007-06-19 21:10:25
435.   51cq24
428 i really think it's unfair to blame arod for the loss just because he struck out twice
2007-06-19 21:10:39
436.   RIYank
430 Anyway it almost certainly puts them in the playoffs.
2007-06-19 21:11:24
437.   monkeypants
427 bad Phillips > Cairo with the stick. Not that it matters. the real key to the roster is Basak. And Thompson.
2007-06-19 21:11:46
438.   51cq24
434 it almost makes you think that no one is even trying to teach him how to be more selective
2007-06-19 21:12:56
439.   51cq24
436 but the point is they aren't going to win every series. they can't settle for 2/3 from the bad teams. and i think colorado still qualifies as a bad team.
2007-06-19 21:12:58
440.   weeping for brunnhilde
431 No, that was a good AB.

But the two previous ones weren't, is all my point is.

Yes, it has been phenomenal, but I don't think the two strike outs were about discipline so much as being fooled. Both times on breaking balls.

2007-06-19 21:13:52
441.   weeping for brunnhilde
435 For Christ's sake, I'm not blaming him!

I was contributing to the comment made above.

I'm not out to get the guy, really.

2007-06-19 21:15:03
442.   51cq24
well it's just one loss and we can't be too upset that they lost a game on all those teams after making up so many in the past week+. it was unrealistic to think they'd make it up all at once. i'm going. i'm sorry if i offended anyone. damon sucks.
2007-06-19 21:15:06
443.   RIYank
439 I was definitely hoping for a sweep. But the Rox, as Cliff notes, do not suck, and it's a road series at an NL park, so I can accept 2 of 3.
2007-06-19 21:16:25
444.   RIYank
441 You hate A-Rod. We know that. You think he's a terrible hitter, not a true Yankee, aesthetically unpleasing, and probably in league with Grendel.
2007-06-19 21:16:33
445.   51cq24
441 i don't think you're out to get him, and i'm sure you just want him to be even better. but you did say that it was the difference in the game. and i do think your expectations of him are unrealistic.
2007-06-19 21:17:13
446.   monkeypants
435 This is why the whole "we have enough offense" and "Cairo has a good glove, that's all we need at first" argument is such bullshit. Even the great players make out sometimes. A-Rod is not going to hit 75 HRs and drive in 300 runs. Jeter and Posada are not going to hit .450. They just can't carry the offense every single night--someone else has to come through. Obviosuly, no team can win every game, but the more bats you put in the lineup, the greater chance that on any given night someone will come through. They don't all need to be all-stars or HOFers, but there is no reason to field attrocious, below replacement level players either.

It's too easy to blame the inconsistent offense on individual players, or to focus on strikeouts (ie, by A-Rod). inconsistent offenses are the product of lineups with holes in them, which will be exposed throughout the season.

2007-06-19 21:17:43
447.   51cq24
443 at this point we can all accept 2/3. but right now it's 0/1.


2007-06-19 21:19:51
448.   RIYank
446 Good point. Although a better 1B (Hillenbrand, say) batter would very rarely turn a loss like this one into a win, you have to remember that, too.

Also, A-Rod will too drive in 300 runs.

2007-06-19 21:20:40
449.   RIYank
447 Yeah. And 1/3 wouldn't be very acceptable at all.

So, we'll have to hit the crap out of the ball tomorrow.

2007-06-19 21:22:32
450.   Mattpat11
437 I think the difference between Andy Phillips and Miguel Cairo on a major league level can generously be called a lateral move.
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2007-06-19 21:26:17
451.   monkeypants
448 True. But there must be a way to construct a roster that does not contain at one time: Cairo, Basak, Phillips, Thompson, Nieves, and crippled Damon, of whom two will never play and the rest (save Nieves) will vye for time at the two slugging positions (DH/1B).

And you're wrong--there is no way A-Rod drives in more than 250 this year.

2007-06-19 21:32:35
452.   weeping for brunnhilde
I understand your point, but it sounds a bit tautological. I mean, of course a lineup with 9 Babe Ruths will produce more offense than one with 8 Babe Ruths plus one Miguel Cairo.

What's a "hole?" and don't even great teams have holes, in the sense of weaker members of their order?

2007-06-19 21:32:55
453.   monkeypants
450 Well, last year Andy produced 28 RC in 246 AB (3.78 RC/27 outs), while Cairo produced 20 RC in 244 AB (2.97 RC/27 outs). Over the course of a full season that makes a difference of about 15 to 20 RC advantage for Andy, assuming his stinky numbers last year are typical. Maybe Cairo makes up that number with the glove, maybe not. But keeping CAiro at 1B necessitates (in Yankee logic) Basak on the bench, which is an utter waste. Andy at 1B frees up Cairo to BUIF and PR, for hich he is actually an asset and not a major detriment. Of course, a real 1B would be preferable to both...
2007-06-19 21:34:48
454.   weeping for brunnhilde
444 Definitely in league with Grendel, no question in my mind.


2007-06-19 21:38:00
455.   weeping for brunnhilde
446 Maybe the problem is that I don't understand "replacement level."

What exactly does that mean?

2007-06-19 21:40:38
456.   Mattpat11
450 I'm really of the opinion that when we're debating the merits of different levels of hideous, its not worth the paperwork of the call up.
2007-06-19 21:42:28
457.   monkeypants
[452+ No--you are distorting what I said. I explicitly said that one would not expect an All Star or HOFer at every position. On the other hand, it is inexcusable to carry so many below replacement level players. The very definition of Replacement Leel, as I understand it, is the point at which a given major leaguer's performance could be substituted for a AAA player at the same position. In other words, the Yankees are complacent to carry not just weaker bats, but god-awful bats at certain positions--players who statistically could be bettered by a run-o-the-mill AAA player. And they are not just carrying one such player (Cairo at a premier slugging position), but a vastly sub-par DH and a woeful bench. At the same time, Melky is is hitting sub-par, but playing a fine defensive CF--maybe a wash. Cano is still not producing in the top half of the league for a 2B. This team loses 3-1 to the rockies not so much b/c A-Rod strikes out twice (he did contribute to the one run scored), but because the team threw away about about 10 outs with bad batters.
2007-06-19 21:47:54
458.   monkeypants
455 I probably use the term too loosely. Here is a longer discussion/definition:

(Yeah, I know--no tiny url.)

2007-06-19 21:51:42
459.   Max
425 Tough loss, but Cleveland lost, and Oakland and Seattle look like they're going to lose as well. I think it's still early to be watching the WC very closely. I'll be more into it after the ASB once we're ten games over .500.

What's toughest is that this was our 20th loss in games decided by 2 runs or less, versus only 6 wins. Ouch. That needs to get better.

2007-06-19 21:54:06
460.   weeping for brunnhilde
457 Sorry, I didn't mean to distort what you said; I see how I did that.

As to replacement level, I guess that's still not too clear to me what it actually means or how it's established.


You say the team threw away outs, but that's not literally true. Those players had a statistical chance of getting a hit. At what point does "lower chance of getting a hit than Alex Rodriguez" become "giving away at-bats?"

You see the nature of my problem?

It seems slippery slope or something.

"This team loses 3-1 to the rockies not so much b/c A-Rod strikes out twice (he did contribute to the one run scored), but because the team threw away about about 10 outs with bad batters. "

Is there truly a scientific way of establishing the cause of a team's losing any one particular baseball game?

This game in particular?

2007-06-19 22:06:36
461.   monkeypants
460 Probably no scientific way, and my language was emotional and frustrated. I guess I just believe that there MUST be better options than having a roster with Cairo, Basak, Phillips, Nieves, Thompson, and wounded Damon on the bench, and Cabrera starting AND leading off. Not that all of those players are entirely bad--indeed, they have some skills. But carrying these players simuktaneously is forcing the team to give some of them far too many ABs, and when they need to PH, they are forced to use players who are at best only marginally better than those whom they replace. In my opinion, offense has been competely ignored on the bench. Indeed, the ONE player perfectly suited for the bench--Phelps, a RH with lots of pop who has always hit LHP--was released. Finally, I guess I believe that there must be some better option for 1B/DH that can be had cheaply, b/c een another team's castoff is likely better than this lot.
2007-06-19 22:07:00
462.   weeping for brunnhilde
Hmmm, I know I'm obtuse about such matters, but this really sounds cryptic to me:

"How Do We Define Replacement Level?

Replacement level is the expected level of performance the average team can obtain if it needs to replace a starting player at minimal cost.

Individual replacements can perform above or below the expected level, but that does not change what the expectation was at the time of the decision.

Specific teams may have better-than replacement level players available in their own systems. This does not change the concept of replacement level -- it shows that team context is important when evaluating particular decisions. If all teams had better-than replacement-level players easily available, then that would indicate that your level is set too low. "

Ok, so replacement level is relative/team-specific, if I understand this correctly.

But it still sounds pretty metaphysical: how can you compare Cairo, say, with his replacement from AAA? I mean, it's still just an expectation, not a guarantee.

The real question is how accurate such expectations are or can be, isn't it?

2007-06-19 22:20:16
463.   weeping for brunnhilde
461 I agree with you.

And I understand your perspective.

My perspective is that Alex had a couple of pitches to really drive in both of those ab where he struck out but failed to swing at them and thus left himself zero chance of getting a hit.

It happens, I understand that, but to me, if you talk about giving away ab, that's what comes readily to mind.

Bonds, for instance, in his big year, never got pitches to hit, but when he did, he never missed them.

The fact that Alex had those pitches and didn't even swing at them is noticable to me, is all I'm saying, and looking back at the game, those were two big opportunities squandered, the ones that got away, as it were.

Doesn't mean I think Alex is a bum, just that had he had four quality ab (which isn't that unreasonable a request) rather than two, things might have been different.

2007-06-19 22:23:26
464.   monkeypants
463 OK, if we accept your definition of quality AB, then cn we agree that Cairo had 0 quality ABs today? And Nieves had 0? Why does A-Rod, who actually produced in half his ABs get extra scrutiny, while the bottom of the order gets off scot free?
2007-06-19 22:29:42
465.   monkeypants
462 It is obtuse. But I at least operate on faith that just about any AAA 1B (and that is the key position) will outperform Cairo. Despite Mattpat11's dismissal 456, over the course of a whole season Andy Phillips will contribute a goodly number more runs than Cairo. So would Phelps, I am sure, though I'll keep an open mind about his defensive woes. So would Shelley Duncan. Eric Duncan might not, but he might even be worth the risk.

Likewise, I have a hard team believing that anything except a rotting corpse would perform worst than Nieves.

Similarly (though not really a replacement level argument), I am convinced that if they kept Phelps and plugged him into DH, he would have a very good chance to outhit Damon, and there is no defensive penalty at DH.

2007-06-19 22:31:17
466.   weeping for brunnhilde
464 Because of his talent. He's the big man, so I hold him to a higher standard.

That's his role on the team. I expect nothing from Nieves, so don't even bother criticising him. He is what he is.

2007-06-19 22:33:59
467.   weeping for brunnhilde
465 You could be right about all that, but we'd have to see it in action, wouldn't we?

Who knows how someone will perform until they do (or don't)?

2007-06-19 22:35:13
468.   monkeypants
466 No offense, that's crazy. By this logic, a GM should only sign players like Nieves, thus making team expectations 0, so fans should expect nothing and always be happy.

My point is that I too expect nothing from Nieves, and that's exactly the problem. This team has too many players for who we are asked simply to expect nothing because 'that's what they are.' And if A-Rod doesn;t pick them up by hitting 100 HRs, it's his fault b/c he is the big man.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, because I think that whole approach is goofy. We just start from different assumptions and expectations, I guess.

2007-06-19 22:41:49
469.   weeping for brunnhilde
For instance, mp, if a pitcher pitches a good game, but in a big spot he throws a poor pitch, either a meatball because he simply misses his location or, worse, exercises poor judgment in type and location of pitch and it subsequently gets hit hard scoring the winning run, don't you get a little annoyed at the pitcher?

It's fair game to grumble about that one pitch, isn't it, even if the rest of the game he pitched well?

Well that's how I feel about those two ab from Alex. He can't will himself to get a hit, but he can give himself the best chance to, which means swinging at good pitches rather than bad ones.

He couldn't execute in two ab, which was kind of big, because it's his job to execute.

Just as when you look back over a pitcher's game and feel stung by that meatball your guy threw, I feel stung by that meatball Alex didn't even offer at, and wonder about what might have been.

2007-06-19 22:44:42
470.   weeping for brunnhilde
468 Fair enough.

I guess it seems to me that compared to most major league teams, we have enough talent to compensate for say, Cairo and Melky and to be patient with Cano, because they make other contributions to the team. I'm not apologizing for Nieves.

2007-06-19 22:48:45
471.   monkeypants
469 I guess in the same way, I wonder what might have been if shitty Miguel Cairo wasn't deemed the best option off the bench in a key spot in the ninth. I wonder what would have been if the team kept Phelps and designated Basak, so that he faced a LHP late in the game. I wonder what would have been if even a marginally better BUC took Nieves ABs. I wonder what would have been if Damon had been put on the DL, so that his roster spot could be taken by a player who can actually play. I wonder what could have been if the team had any other offense to supplement the two times that A-Rod got on base. I also wonder what would have been if A-Rod's offensive performance would have been replaced by even more crappy players--would they have been shut out instead of scoring only one run. So in some ways, we wonder the same sort of things.
2007-06-19 22:56:15
472.   weeping for brunnhilde
Understood, completely.

That makes a great deal of sense to me. Ultimately, it would be nice to have both four quality ab from Alex and a deeper roster.

No argument there.

2007-06-19 23:00:21
473.   weeping for brunnhilde
Maybe it's that my perspective is more of a coach whereas yours is that of a GM.

My interest is in maximizing the talent available whereas yours is maximizing available talent.

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