I think I'd have taken Andy over Basak.

Though Basak did play well in spring training, at least the games I saw.

i wonder if joe just thought that thompson was a bat boy with an impressive early growth spurt.

he certainly didn't ever seem to think of him as a player

i wonder if the basak move is a prelude to finding out that jeter's going to have to sit a couple of days this week to heal up

2 Good call. Probably the only reason I can image it was Basak. Indeed, if Cairo gets the start tonight, that answers things.

Again, as I rambled on about in yesterday's game thread, how is it that we have no bench at all? I understand that we were supposed to pummel the opposition with out starters, but how can Cashman get credit for keeping all these minor league scrubs, while leaving the team with no bat to bring into games late. Is Miguel Cairo going to hit that walk off home run or double that Ruben once did?

Now that the league has seen our call-ups, who is going to want any of them? I keep Clippard and Hughes, but all others are on the block.

And for God's sake Joe, don't keep going to guys like Villone when we can give the Brittons and Henns of the world a chance. Clearly using Viz, Villone et al. isn't working. So stop doing it!

This team makes one weird roster move (or non-move) after another. They might as well just play with eight starters, Cairo, Nieves and a 15 player BP.

Dear God, as if I thought things couldn't get worse. Even if Joe is going to play Cairo for a few days to rest Jeter (the horror, the horror) either play Cairo and use A-Rod as the ss backup and Andy as the 3b, 2b, and 1b backup, or just DFA the useless Cairo and play Basak. Having both of them on the team is beyond silly. I udnerstand the "need" to have a guy who can back up the IF positions in case of an injury, but are either of those guys really worth it? As in, can they really provide anything? As in, why the heck can't A-Rod play ss for a few games and put someone else at 3b? Ugh, at least with Minky out we can't get the Torre lineup of Cairo, Nieves, and Minky at the bottom...Though if he really is planning on resting A-Rod, we could get Cairo, Basak, Nieves (AGGGGGHHHHHHH!)

5

Exactly. They do make strange moves. But even stranger, the moves never see any playing time. Joe bent over backwards and downward dog to get Phillips playing time last year, maybe he will at least see if Basak can play? If only so that Phelps doesn't get Jeter killed.

Now that the Yankees are desperate, it is a bad time to make a trade because of our bargaining position. We could have picked up Clark in the Johnson deal. We could have done a lot of things to bring in just one professional bat, but we did not, and now we're screwed. Cashman had said it was a gamble.

6

There is no way that Joe is going to upset the apple cart by playing Arod at SS. It just wont happen.

carrying over the "real yankee" thread while we wait for the game, i've gotta say, while i'd love to have gary sheffield's RH production this year, i'm sure glad he's no longer around to say things like this (from ESPN):

In an interview in the June issue of GQ magazine, the typically outspoken Tigers designated hitter said Latin players have replaced African-Americans as baseball's most prevalent minority because they are easier to control.

"I called it years ago. What I called is that you're going to see more black faces, but there ain't no English going to be coming out. … [It's about] being able to tell [Latin players] what to do -- being able to control them," he told the magazine.

"Where I'm from, you can't control us. You might get a guy to do it that way for a while because he wants to benefit, but in the end, he is going to go back to being who he is. And that's a person that you're going to talk to with respect, you're going to talk to like a man.

"These are the things my race demands. So, if you're equally good as this Latin player, guess who's going to get sent home? I know a lot of players that are home now can outplay a lot of these guys."

Something tells me that Chris Basak will play a "Wicked Game" tonight...
;-)

They also have to place Damon on the DL to heal as best he can. Unless he is going to play 1B, he is of absolutely no use to us right now.

7 Do you mean NOT to get Phillips playing time? This is the same manager who started Cairo at 1B over Phillips, who was designated as Giambi's back-up. He only started 49 games and significant % of his ABs came in odd late inning PH. Often he would let Giambi bat in the late innings and then grudgingly insert Phillips only as a PR of fielding replacement.

10

I am all for giving him a shot.

12

He did get to start 49 games, right? Almost 1/3 of the season. I wanted him to succeed as much as the next guy, but he proved impotent, and not exactly stellar with the glove.

11 These are the non-moves I was referring to. It happened last year with Sheff--instead of putting a player on teh Dl, they sit him for a few days, then he plays here and there ineffectively, then sits again, then finally goes on the DL after essentially occupying a roster spot for two weeks. He should have been DLed weeks ago, and that spot freed up (along with Giambi's, which also should have been opened two weks ago).

14 Maybe 49 games is enough--that's not the point. It is just inaccurate to say Torre bent over backwards to get him playing time. He got 200+ ABs despite Torre, not because of his efforts.

15

I could not agree more. Johnny cannot play defense right now, cannnot hit, and his only benefit to us is on the basepaths, but he has to get on them first. Just put him on DL so he can be of some use to us later on. Not ever being on the DL is not a streak for God's sake! Its a sign of both good conditioning, but more likely, just plain and simple good luck. Luck is not a reason to let someone gobble up a roster spot. But why not have a guy with an OBP of .350 lewading off? Makes sense to me.

16

And he wasted eight out of ten of them. This isn't little league. You make the most of the chances you get, and if you don't, you get replaced. I like Andy, but this persistence on the part of many here to believe he is a MLB player, makes me sleepy.

18 You're missing my point. If he is not ML quality, then take him off the roster. But he was put on the roster to be the back-up 1B, and early in the season especially Torre moved heavan and earth not to play him. I am not arguing the merits of Phillips as a player, I am contesting your statement thet Torre bent over backwards to get him PT, when if fact he seemed to go out of his way not to play him.

{18} In fact, if Torre has gone out of his way to get anyone PT, it's Miguel Cairo, by playing him as BU 1B and even throwing him in the outfield, in addition to his designated BUIF role. He is also the primary pinch runner (which, admittedly, he seems to do admirably). It's like Torre needs a Cairo/E. Wilson/Soho clone on the bench or he gets the willies.

19

Agreed.

On a happier note, my silver lining this year is that I am getting to see a lot of young guys play. I have to hang my hat on something, right?

I just wish Joe would stop using Villone and Viz and give Britton, Bruney, Proctor, Myers, Henn, and Mo every chance to succeed.

Oh wait, and that Farnsworth guy. Let him pitch once in a while too.

19 Sorry--many typos in that one. Must preview comment first...

21 Agreed. That's why I am so disappointed about Hughes. I figure the season is pretty much a was, I would rather watch prospects (Hughes) and no so prospects (Clippard and even De Salvo), then known dregs.

20

I actually like having Cairo on the bench. He may not be used properly, but runs the bases well, can lay down a good bunt, and is tough to strike out. Not to mention his defensive use at many positions. It is who is sitting next to him on the bench that is the problem, not Cairo. If he was sitting next to Tony Clark and Hatteberg, no one would care that Cairo is on the team.

22 "than known", not "then..."

Dammit Monkeypants, get it together.

2 3 I'll bet you guys are right. Hoo-boy.

Cairo has 2 hits (1 double) and 3 RBIs vs Buerhle (in 6 ABs, so .333). He's also hit .293 vs LHP in his career.

I'll bet Damon and Jeter sit, Melky plays CF, Basak at SS, Phelps at DH, and Cairo at 1B.

Gosh, I hope I'm wrong.

25 I guess that would be "The House Money Lineup w/ Special Sauce"

I wonder if there's anyway to work Wil ".091" Nieves into there somehow ...

I guess my way of thinking has always been that you never release a player unless you have someone of equal or better value to replace them. This has been my issue with Cashman all along. He has made some great deals, don't get me wrong. But we could have El Duque, Lieber, and a Tony Clark on the team for 10 Mil. between them. Instead we have Villone, Vizcaino, Cairo and other scrubs.

26 Is the point when people can finally stop saying the team "has enough offence" so they can start Minky/Cairo/Joe Schlobotnik at 1B?

27 well, to be fair, Lieber was a industry valuation miscalculation that resulted from Happy Omar dishing out 7 mil per for Anna Benson's uglier half ... still, point taken ... the haphazard way this teams leverages its resource advantage drives me crazy

29

Cashman is just shortsighted is all. Sometimes you take a chance on a trade, and hope for the best. I understand that. But when you just let guys walk because you think you're smart enough to replace them, is just bad management. Duque had never been any good in the post-season for us, right? Lieber wouldn't be a better spot starter or relief guy, would he? It was a good idea to just assume that Igawa would be MLB ready, right? Cashman takes the easiest GM job in all of sports due to resources, and turns it into rocket science. He, Isiah, and Mitch Kupchak should be drinking fruit drinks in the Bahamas right now, not GM's of professional sports teams.

26 Is the point when people can finally stop saying the team "has enough offense" so they can start Minky/Cairo/Joe Schlobotnik at 1B?

All this is actually making me follow NASCAR. I'm following NASCAR for God's sake! Help me Mr. Steinbrenner, please!

28 31 How did that happen?

31

Dude, I was hoping we could get Dusty Baker's kid to play a little 1B as well, no?

I

"Is the point when people can finally stop saying the team "has enough offence" so they can start Minky/Cairo/Joe Schlobotnik at 1B?"

I hope so, but I doubt it.

It's time for Cashman to get the fires burning for Mark Teixeira. Texas isn't going to sign him to a long term deal. He's only 27, and we have no plan at 1B. I can assume that the Yankees will buy Giambi out. We need a long term plan at 1B, and Mark Teixeira is that plan.

But instead, Cashman will probably sign an aging Hunter, or blow a bunch of cash on one of the Tampa Bay outfielders. Do the right thing Cash, do it!

2 What impressive early growth spurt? KT is about 5' tall. ;)

This just in. Larry Flynt has offered one million dollars to anyone who can teach Joe Torre how to use a bullpen. He was going to offer one million to anyone with proof of an affair with Joe, but even he couldn't imagine anyone having sex with him willfully.

36 Realistically, what do you think it would take to get Teixeira? And is it a price they should pay for someone who's probably going to be a rental?

And 38 eeeeeeewwwwwwwww!

This season makes my eyes hurt.

39

Whatever it takes, less Hughes, get him. He won't be a rental, they should sign him to a long term deal. He's only 27 and averaging 36 HR and 114 RBI in four seasons.

Cairo is at 1B tonight. Not sure about the others.

Ok, here you go:

Damon DH
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Rodriguez 3B
Posada C
Matsui LF
Cano 2B
Cabrera CF
Cairo 1B

Why not just DFA Phelps? Really, what's the point anymore?

43

Because I dont want to go through what I had to go through last year with another career minor leaguer who many think is a baseball player.

I'm curious what the Banter community thinks about this: if the Devil Rays put Elijah Dukes on the trading block (and it sounds like they will), should the Yanks take a run at him? Should his character issues (re: he's an asshole) make us want no part of him? If not, what would you (the collective you) be willing to give up for him?

43 Why am I not surprised?

At least Joe might have played Andy over Miggy.

46 There's no Andy - he's at The Office.

45 I don't care about a-holes. If he can play, get him. And have him earn his spot next year.

30 Whatever you may say about the Sheffield and Johnson deals of the last offseason, they certainly weren't shortsighted. You can argue - OK, Jim Dean can argue - that they weren't the right deals, but they were still made for the long term.

48 Elijah Dukes is more than an a-hole. He's dangerous.

49 I didn't have a problem with the Shef deal.

51 Yeah, I know. And if that was a cheap shot, I hope it was at least gentle enough.

52 No, at all - I could see how a reasonable person could think that. :)

44 but you're perfectly fine with the sucking chest wound of offensive ineptitude that is miguel cairo???

That's starting first basemen Miquel Cairo. God help us if he gets 2 hits and Torre decides to make him the regular.

i mean, this whole phelps thing is a perfect reminder of torre's modus operandi with his bench ... sit somebody until they're good and rusty, then throw them in the fire, watch them fail and then bury them

unless, of course, they've got that shiny stamp of veteran approval ... then, they get to plenty of opportunities to prove that first failure wasn't a mirage

this season has been and will be, a test of creative, thoughtful (and patient) managing ... too bad torre has essentially managed it as if medicated, punching the same tired buttons in numbingly rote fashion

gah.

Oh. Good. The Chicago feed is on EI tonight. Three hours of Hawk.

51 Same here. Good riddance.

If you MUST start Cairo at 1B, why not DH Phelps and give Damon a rest against a lefty against whom he has a career .547 OPS in 44 PA? Oh wait...Phelps has a .237 OPS against Buerhle in 13 PAs.

Geez...not many exciting options here.

I don't care if he's dead - I want Billy Martin back. If I can't have him, I think Earl Weaver is both alive and available.

Jeter needs to get some rest soon..

clippard really almost missed the bag. still. like the DP.

Baseball can be a funny game...all afternoon, we debated Phelps inability to throw and wouldn't you know, his replacement starts a 3-6-1.

44 You do realize that the career minor leaguer who caused you so much distress last season outhit tonight's starting 1B? Whatever you think about Phillips, you cannot rationally prefer to see Cairo ou there.

Did Sterling just keel over? I heard a loud thud on the mic and Suzyn finished the play-by-play.

64 Well, I never root for an injury, but...

Oh god, that seals it.

Damn, Sterling is alive.

Oh, and it turns out he and Suzyn are big Cairo boosters.

How nice!

67 Well, as Sterling would say, he is the best .125 hitter you have ever seen.

68 That Cairo....He....does....so....many...things...right.

Jeter needs some rest now..

"Right there is Damon" - I'll drink to that!

Yo.
I see the Captain is responsible for an unreasonable number of outs so far.
How's T-Clip going?

72 Dancing in and out of trouble - seems with his control waxing and waning.

2 K's this inning.

Meanwhile, in St. Louis...Bennet gets beaned by Harang. Molina has a broken wrist, so it's Kelly Stinnett to the rescue.

Psssst.... start the runners.....

3 GIDP in 4 innings ... doesn't look good

75 Nah...why do that? Wouldn't that involve the manager [gasp] managing?

aren't folks normally complaining that torre does that too much?

77 Maybe the bench coach could mention it.

What was A-Rod doing on that play?

What just happened? Gameday showed Dye at first, and then a ground out by Piersynski that sent Dye all the way to third!

81 He went to back up Jeter and then Dye beat him to 3rd.

78 What? You mean how he ran on Varitek's solid 1 for 18 caught stealing percentage?

Big K.

I see now, Clippard is really all over the place. His curve does seem pretty hard to hit. (Of course, it's the White Sox, so slow pitch softballs are hard to hit too.)

Man, Jeter looks terrible in all facets right now.

83 I'm not specifically talking about Varitek. Just pointing out that folks have consistently criticized Torre for running too much. The first time it isn't work for us, folks criticize Torre for not running. It is an observation.

So Torre takes out Clippard this inning or next inning?

(And yes, I'm very chippy tonight. It took exactly one game for Cairo to start at 1B)

86 Who are these "folks" you speak of. I've never heard that criticism.

87 He's thrown a lot of pitches (60+) but I think Torre has to give him a longer leash this time, no?

87 Hey, he's 1-for-1 and started a tough double play. Get pissed off after he grounds out a few times.

87 Well, he just gave up a run on two grounders past Jeter and a goofy defensive lapse, so I'm surprised he let him finish the inning.

90 No--that's the biggest reason to get pissed. Now he has earned three weeks of starting!

WSox middle infield has been really well-positioned the last couple of innings. Matsui and A-Rod hit balls well up the middle, fielded with ease.

By the way, I think Uribe should be ejected. On Matsui's grounder he fielded the ball on the wrong side of second base! I'm sure that's illegal.

89 well, with what an 8 or 9 man bullpen, he may be walking to the mound often. : ~

when Cano is going well, it is so beautiful.

94 only if it was fielded like that by alex. get with the program! ; )

Just checking in, after catching up on DVR. Man, Jeter needs to take some time off. Is Basak even here yet? Why didn't he start? Cairo at 1B makes me sick; PeteAbe's sarcasm about it makes me sicker.

In happier news, I <3 Robbie Cano.

i was hoping WGN would be showing the game, but it's one of those nights that the cubs play a rare night game. oh well, i can get some practicing in...

REmember when Abreu couldn't get on base and Cano couldn't hit? That sucked.
Of course, this sucks too, but in a different way.

The strength of the bottom of the order is horrible. We really need Damon at first... nice hit there by Cairo, though.

Oh no. Now Cairo's gonna start the rest of the season. I've never been less happy about an RBI.

55 Uh oh.

detroit is losing big early. we can gain a game on both central teams. as cliff noted in his post, we really need to take these 3 final games vs. the pale hose...

CAIRO!

did i just type that?

Oh yeah, Miggy makin' JD eat those words!

Ladies and Gentlemen, meet your 2008 starting 1B for the New York Yankees!

that seals josh phelps' fate...

106 God help us all!

106 I just threw up and swallowed it. Then threw up again.

Wait, guys, he got picked off. Maybe he'll get Charles Gipson treatment!

Too bad he can't run. Otherwise he'd be the perfect first baseman!

I seriously considered getting a new Toaster handle and showing up as someone who really admired Cairo and wants him to get more time. But then I decided that would be childish.

How much time to you guys figure Basak will see?

111 You'd have competition from whoever edited Cairo's wikipedia page:

"Further evidence of Cairo's value is that he led the league in percentage of productive outs this year for players with a minimum of 40 at bats. "

"In fact, Miguel Cairo has the highest winning percentage of team wins when he plays in a game of any player in the majors this year (for players with over 100 games played)."

Not sure what "this year" means. 2005, maybe, when he played exactly 100 games.

Talk about your cherry picking...

Damn, that pitch was nasty!

What is it - the idiot club in the booth? Feisand is trying to out-stupid Suzyn and Sterling.

iirc, didn't cairo have like a 4 stolen base game for us in the not so distant past?

me and my big mouth - detroit chipping away...

113 or maybe that was written in 2005? to be fair...

113 Hey, be nice. His mom worked a long time on that page!

Iguchi has no clue up there.

WTF is going on with Arod?

Uh oh, Joe. Clip's at 81 pitches. You got to take him now.

Go edit the page! It's wikipedia. It's for the people.

So, it's true, isn't it, that the one thing a young pitcher tends to learn is 'command'. Because Clippard really might turn out to be good. His curve is pretty fierce.

But, it's the White Sox.

116 Cairo has never stolen more than two bases in a game for the Yankees (twice in 2006). He has none this year.

Give it to the kid, Blue!

Clippard's average distance from the strike zone might be the largest I've ever seen.

Joe...reaching...for...panic...button...

Nice work Clip.

Yay!
Nice to see the kid get the last batter he'll face tonight.

Now, top of the order, and Damon can thank Miggy for erasing two strikes.

121 128 Joe should go batter by batter with him for the 6th.

somebody needs to tell the sox announcer that that worked just fine.

Ha, there ya go! Buehrle throws the 'third strike' to Damon, and then he gets a hit! I'm gonna chalk that hit up to Cairo. So now Miggy is 3-for-2.

Bobby!

Whew, Cap'n back. And Bobby, too. Helllllo, Big Inning.

Jeter making it to first may be the best thing about this inning. He's running a little better.

I don't think the CS will hurt him. Cairo is supposed to be the best base runner on the team. He'll ride on the reputation for a long time.

I like Miggy as a bench player, but he's best in small doses.

Wow, nice slide! That throw was right on.

It's like a whole new Abreu. I like it...

Sterling: Scoring is Abreu...here's the throw from Dye and he's safe.

Why does the Hawk talk about Matsui like Gammons talks about David Ortiz?

With a four run lead, it would be nice to squeeze to more innings out of Clippard, but his pitch total is pretty high.

137 New Abreu reminds me of Old Abreu.

Darn, if only Cairo could have gotten a crack we might have broken it open.

Yay! EDSP! I've missed him so.

So, let's see. Proctor, Bruney, Farns, Mo? Obviously not Britton tonight.

129 I guess Clippard turns into a pumpkin if he goes past the 5th.

143 Let's score some more runs and put Sean Henn in there.

I think Joe didn't want DeSalvo AND Clippard to have as many quality starts as Mussina.

143 We'll see what comes up on the Wheel of Guts, right Jim?

Quick Cashman...sign Cairo to a long-term deal!

gotta give cairo credit tonight. He has done ok.

Cairo has a ZR of 1.000, btw.

MIGGYMANIA!

I have to admit I'm taking a perverse pleasure in this Cairo thing. If you guys didn't despise him so much I would have to fill the hate gap, but, well, I'm hoping one of you will explode.

The Cairo Show tonight is some kind of perverse torment.

I just ate my chunks from 109. So 106 true.

Wow that was pretty.

150 To be fair, one would expect a defensive replacement middle infielder to have good range at 1B.

145 Sean Henn, I would vote for that, definitely.

Let me be the first to say: I don't give a Buckvich

No joy in Mudville
Mighty Miggy
Has struck out.

147 That's right - I'm betting EDSP for his second inning.

Nah, maybe it's "Use Five pitchers tonight"

157 It's hard to believe you'll be the last, though.

Ah, Johnny D. And now let's see if this is Captain Clutch or his evil twin, Cap'n GIDP.

Anyone keeping an eye on the Toronto game?

159 Another inning for Proctor is very logical. But the Wheel respects no logic, right?

It's the real Captain after all!
This is a very inspiring game.

161 Holy cow. 11 to 10.

11-11

163 11-11 they scored 5 now in the B9

pitching change for TB, man on 2nd, 1 out

Helz yeah.

if the ball bounces after the tag, he is likely safe.

Somebody make a joke about pulling Bukvich.

168 ??? Something an announcer said?

169 i can't. I see that name and I can't help but get a serious case of empathy for him as a kid... ouch!

ah, buk n' vich!

170 i don't remember. maybe i was just doing stream of consciousness.

new pitcher brought in to throw 2 IBB's. force at every base up north...

so, sheffield can't figure out why folks are upset? Did someone suck his brain out?

175 Might be 3

OMG, he did walk a 3rd. jays won. wow.

Wow. 177
Were you watching the game, or Gameday?

I absolutely despise those IBBs in a one-run or tie situation. I remember we've won a couple because of the opposing manager doing it.

178 nah, i follow all this stuff at the espn scoreboard. i know, i know...

I love Paulie.

Girardi just brought up one of O'Neill's recurring dreams, that he got a hit to right field but he was running through quicksand so the rightfielder threw him out.

Beautiful!

178 I flipped over and the last two pitches weren't evn close. Jays celebrated like they won the WS. But they did come back down from 5, so...

well, this is nice, i leave work with the score tied 0-0 and the yanks having grounded into 3 dps in 4 innings ... i get home and we're up 6-1 ... nice

is there some reason clippard got yanked after 5 innings and 89 pitches, or is joe just auditioning for entertainment director of the local bullpen forced labor camp?

151 Is Miggymania related to Stinkapalooza?

I actually like Cairo on the bench.

182 No reason beyond the 89 pitches, no. But Proctor got a five-pitch inning!

The team is rewarding you for your choice words to Will Weiss this afternoon, Baal boy.

183 Yes!

And I assume you mean you like him on the bench if the alternative is starting.

182 C'mon cult, get with the program. Clippard is a rookie. He's got a long way to go until his belly is as full of guts as Villone, Vizcaino, or EDSP. THEN Torre will let him pitch in the 6th.

;)

EDSP throws 2 innings, but uses only 22 pitches. What are the odds he comes out to the start the 8th, too?

180 weeping, I figure you've got to be loving this game. The Yanks have 4 doubles, ten singles, a sac fly, and no home runs. Oh, and A-Rod went the other way in his last AB, dropped a liner into left to score a run.

These guys are cute--I think Girardi and O'Neill are my favorite combo.

Where's Leiter been, btw?

Anyone know?--I miss him.

188 Better than Hawk and DJ for sure.

I was thinking of you too, Weeping, for the same reason.
Shaun, there's no way Proctor comes out again. Unless... the Wheel of Guts comes up on double-zero!

Let's score three more runs and get a look at Sean Henn 2.0.

185 I don't mind him spot starting and as a bench player. His presence on the team infuriates me far less than several other players in recent years.

187 "A-Rod . . . dropped a liner into right" Sorry.

188 Maybe Al is gearing up for his senatorial campaign? ;)

187 Yes, Shaun, yes!!

Don't forget our first run?

Cairo with a little line drive up the middle!

That's baseball!

:)

And yes, Alex made me happy with that little dunker to rightfield--it plated the run!

Get the job done!

Melky joins the hit parade! Sweet.

I hope Yankees not use up all hits in bats tonight. Maybe hats for bats to keep bats warm for tomorrow.

Cano spraying the ball around, hitting the ball hard each time.

I love this.

Oh, and didn't Cairo bunt for a single, or did I imagine that? (I've been checking out the Mets periodically, so maybe I'm confusing things.)

Dewon Day, my prince will come.

196 Both Cairo and Jeter did.

194 Yes, for Melky!

9,175 Sheffield is a F'n bore. And not the sharpest tool in the shed, by any stretch.

"These are the things my race demands. So, if you're equally good as this Latin player, guess who's going to get sent home? I know a lot of players that are home now can outplay a lot of these guys."

"Demands"? Really? Maybe there's just something in human nature that triggers a person to make a decision about who they want to associate with based on attitude and behavior, no matter their race. If two players are "equally good" — Asian, Black, Caucasian, Latino, whatever — and one has a chip on his shoulder, who do you want to live with for the next 8 months?

I dunno about anyone else, but I want to see the best players we can field, regardless of who their ancestors procreated with — and this whole thing about a "lack" of American blacks in the game for a specific reason is a very bad assumption to buy into at face value. If Sheffield is trying to make the case that racial discrimination against blacks is the reason, he has to step up with proof. Now.

If he, or anyone, has a shred of evidence that black minor leaguers are being held back from The Show in favor of 'passive Latins' — let's hear it. Otherwise this screed accomplishes nothing more than heaving a few more needless coals on the fire of race relations in this country.

196 He did indeed. (Because he isn't good at hitting baseballs. That's what gutsy guys do instead of hitting.)

Whoa, Uribe heads up.

191 he's certainly not individually the biggest problem around, but he's collectively part of one of the biggest problems, which is our anemic bench ... and i have a sinking feeling his 2 hits tonite mean a couple more weeks of watching him flail and hack and suck up outs at the plate like a giant sponge

what was that?

Ha!

That was funny, that little toss from Iguchi and Iribe wasn't there!

Like at the circus!

I knew the Wheel was going to come up Farns.

hmmm ... the wheel of guts ... round and round and round it goes, on whom it stops only torre knows

it sounds like a bad medieval torture device ... PUT HIM ON THE WHEEL OF GUTS ... CRUCIFY HIM!

No Joe, I never pay to see Kyle Farnsworth.

206 I think it's featured in this painting by Pieter Bruegel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Triumph_of_Death

This is great, they're ribbing Kay about talk radio.

Girardi: "That's a lot of talking, don't you get tired of talking?"

O'Neill: "You ever twist stories on talk radio, Michael?"

200 On Sheff's remark: see this article with good quotes, especially (believe it or not) Ozzie Guillen's.

http://tinyurl.com/3c2hrl

Sample:

"I guarantee that Latin American people play more baseball than any people, because that's all we have," Guillen told the newspaper. "You have more people playing baseball in Venezuela or the Dominican than anywhere, so there are going to be more players from there."

205 You know though, given Farnsworth's success against Ortiz, I don't mind seeing him pitch to Thome here. Now, a nice GIDP by Dye would do, Kyle.

207 well, think of it like the deals you get with cheap chinese food ... you know ... "with ticket, you get farnsworth"

i HATE leadoff walks. no matter the situation...

This sounds like Torre's BP management right?

The breaking wheel (also known as the Catherine wheel; originally, the whele) was a torturous capital punishment device used in the Middle Ages and early modern times for public execution by cudgeling to death. It was not used for coercion through torture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel

Farns, if you see anyone with a batting average over .250, walk him.

Okay, good job, you should be safe for a few innings now.

212 I'd call the FDA on them.

why couldn't joe use henn here ... i mean, 2 of the first 3 hitters are lefties ... christ

You guys didn't think this would be easy, did you?

Here we go!

Shoot, I was going to defend Farns, too.
Double play very unlikely here, so let's go for the K.

Anyone else wish we had Farnsy pitch 3 innings last night and Britton was available?

Argh, Kyle, you suck. Why must Joe insist on trotting him out there. Easiest way to improve this team is keep Henn and Britton, and get rid of Vizcaino and Kyle.

213 No matter the situation, agreed.

Bruney's up. I guess that's a good thing. To be honest, I'd like to see Mo now.

We gotta get Mo up.

Now it's Mo or nothing.

You'd think he could eat one inning with a 5 run lead. Sheesh.

you know what i'd like to see ... torre go out to the mound, point out beyond the bullpens, whisper "the rabbits, farns, the rabbits" and club the useless POS with a cudgel

"Easiest way to improve this team is keep Henn and Britton, and get rid of Vizcaino and Kyle."

I-I!

222 We either want this game or we don't.

Ooooh, almost.
Yeah, Mackowiak is too fast.

I'd like to note that since before the end of the 2005 season, I was 100 percent against the Farnsworth signing. This is not second guessing. This is not Monday Morning Quaterbacking. I never wanted him. I've never been impressed by him.

Also, I think Mo needs to start picking up the slack.

He doesn't have the same luxuries he used to, so I think it's fair to ask more of him.

More outs, more non-save situations.

too soft for a dp, or mackowiak too fast?

210 Ozzie says some stupid things, but he seems like an intelligent guy. Dude can sure run a bullpen.

I think Ozzie is right about the money too. In baseball, you have to go through an apprenticeship, in either the minors for a few years, or college and then the minors. Even then, when you're first called up, you don't get a big payday for 2 or 3 years. Maybe more. So you might be 28 before you get paid.

Meanwhile, in the NBA and the NFL, you get drafted and you're in the league instantly, so you get paid big bucks a lot quicker. Plus, the NBA had Michael, then Kobe, and now LeBron too. Who's the equivalent guy for MLB? It was Griffey, back in the 90s, but now the most famous black baseball player is also the most decried - Barry Bonds.

In fact, you know what?

Why not think about using Mo differently now that we're losers?

Surely we could get more use out of Mo with this team given what this team is. Play around with bringing him in earlier in games, since we never have work for him.

230 As Mo gets older, he should be afforded more luxuries. Which is why we need a dependable set up man. And not the useless Kyle Farnsworth.

231 Both. Slow grounder, a slow guy probably would've been doubled up.

232 He's totatlly right about the money, and about how many Venezuelans, e.g., play baseball and nothing else.

Good Farns!

Uribe is the perfect batter for Farns, he swings at everything and he can't catch up to the heat.

Yessssssss!

Nice job, Kyle, nice job.

226 Replace "Farnsworth" with "Villone" and I'm on board.

Krazy Kyle isn't awesome, but he's more useful than Villone. The problem is that Torre keeps using him in the 8th as the primary setup guy for Mo. I'd rather see Bruney in that role, and have Kyle pitch some low-leverage innings like the 6th, or in blowouts.

210 Good piece. Ozzie was spot on with this one, too:

"It's not that they can control us; maybe when we come to this country, we're hungry," Guillen told the newspaper. "We're trying to survive. Those guys sign for $500,000 or $1 million and they're made. We have a couple of dollars. You can sign one African-American player for the price of 30 Latin players. Look at how many Latin players have won Cy Youngs or MVP awards the last couple of years, how many Latin players have been in the All-Star Game; it's quantity and quality."

There is a multi-pronged dynamic going on here that Sheffield misses completely.

236 Don't encourage him.

234 Yes, but in the meantime, he could be helping his team more.

His full value to the team is squandered right now because he never pitches.

In order to win more games, you should see to it that your best pitcher pitches more often.

Adapt to new circumstances.

Five run lead, the guy's playing with house money...yet he ends up with a 25 pitch inning...and he somehow gets away with only giving up one run.

237 Villone can at least pitch two days in a row.

All Farnsworth offers is strikeouts. And I'm sorry, but I don't find strikeout numbers all that impressive when you give up runs and allow base runners hand over fist.

What's up with Derek, btw? Where, exactly is he banged up?

The foot, was it?

237 I'm with you on that, I think Farnsworth is significantly more useful than Villone.

If Henn can get back to April form, our much-maligned (and properly so) bullpen could be decent. Bruney, Proctor, Britton, Henn, Rivera, that's better than most pens, for sure. And young.

240 I would have liked to see Hughes as the set-up guy to get his innings in, which is what I think the Twins do with their young pitchers to get them experience. Imagine if the starters had been healthy and Hughes was slotted into the 8th inning instead of ProcFarnsViz.

237 that's the thing, it seems like joe is completely unwilling to actually change things on the fly during a season based on who's pitching well and who's not, who's reliable and who's not, finding ways to put players in situations where they're likely to suceed and effectively and efficiently managing his ENTIRE bullpen

240 I basically agree with you. But there are two ways to get the most out of your best pitcher. One is to get as many innings as possible, and the other is to get him into the most important innings. The modus operandi with Mo has, obviously, been the second, which is traditional (as much as use of a closer can be 'traditional').
But I do think we could strike a happier medium. The iron clad rule that Mo pitches only the ninth is not a good one.

Quick, before it gets taken down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Farnsworth

Moonshot

Oh, sorry, Weeping! I thought they were going to win without a long ball.

A-Rod is fun to watch when he gets going

a-pad my man!

Oh, Jesus.

God, that man hits the baseball.

Gave me a little frisson off the bat, I'll admit.

Nice hit, Alex.

Wow

A-GONE!

Ha!

Jorgie with the opposite field double!!!

I'm loving it.

Great game, great game!

Yeah! Now everyone has a hit. Whew, I didn't want Jorgie to feel left out.

232 Totally agree with your points about the NBA and the NFL. Also if economics is an factor I would think it is easier for a black kid growing up to play Football or Basketball. You can play either sport with less guys and less gear.

Basically you only need a basketball or a football to play those sports and there are hoops and fields around that you can use.

Baseball requires gear that adds up if you don't have much money (mitt, helmet, bat, etc) and you need a fair amount of people to actually play a game.

Oh my God, 17 hits!

17 hits!!!!

And only one homerun!!

Sheer beauty!

248 I don't notice anything amiss.

Ah, A-Rod. What a swing.

And the homerun was the perfect homerun.

Classical.

248 nice

253 The pitch he hit was a terrible pitch, like batting practice. He's a helluva mistake hitter.

Man, Hideki gave that a ride!

EVeryone's hitting!

Oh, and btw, did you guys see that throw by Dye back in the middle innings? The play at the plate?

Man that was a pretty throw.

ha! they credited jeter with the homerun. Don't wanna give arod the credit i guess.

259 Also great points. And you can play a full, intense pickup basketball game or football game in 30 minutes.

With 30 minutes, even playing stickball or wiffleball, you might get two innings in if you're lucky.

Baseball takes money, and time, and space, and lots of kids these days don't have any of those.

265 ha ha ha ha ah hah aha !!!

Touche!

was that as close to being out as gameday made it seem?

266 and he runs into walls, judging from the last catch.

269 Thought you'd like that.
(I was also serious, though, it was a very fat pitch.)

Hey, no Mo! Bruney will work hard to give him a save situation.

Wow, Melky!!

That was a tough play!

270 Sure was. Took a good play by Dye to reel it in, too.

270 warning track shot. caught on the run by Dye.

266 I did notice that. And then I thought how nice it would be to have him on the Yankees. And then my bf said the Giants were interested in him too.

273 That was. The Melkman is lookin' better and better out there...

Nice job, Brian. Now it's a save situation.

So if the bases are loaded, it's a save situation, right?

Tying run on deck?

276 Check out what Mike P. had to say about him yesterday...

http://canyonofheroes.blogspot.com/2007/06/abreu-for-dye.html

Let's get the DP and call it a night, Yanks...

Come on, Bruney, you gotta just challenge him!

If Melky can keep playing a nice CF then he justifies hitting relatively lightly. Of course, if he picks it up, anything he does on offense is gravy.

say Brian Base on Balls Bruney 5 times fast.

Base on Balls.
Brian Bruney.
Bronx Banter.

More than a coincidence????

Huh.

How 'bout that, eh?

Hey Joe, nice to see you again!

Did Bruney get anyone out? I don't remember.

I wish we had a Scot Shields.

285 ha ha haha!!

Dear lord, we have the worst BP I have ever seen.

Ok, I know the last time I was a pitcher was little league, but I managed to throw strikes, keep the ball down and move it around. Seriously, if you throw 98 mph, please just throw it down the middle for chrissakes.

287 :)

Yeah, he did, but I don't remember either.

287 It was a long time ago. He also got out Owens, but Jeter felt sorry for him.

Come on DP.

280 Thanks!

I cannot believe that we have a 5 run lead, one out in the ninth, and we are sweating it. Joe, WHY didn't you bring Mariano in in the first place?

Come on, Mo!

I guess a bullpen full of journeymen and an aging Mariano Rivera isn't exactly the recipe for quick, painless games.

Even with seven runs and 17 hits.

294 If you didn't have to, he did work on Sunday and we want him fresh for tomorrow through Sunday.

Oooh, that 1-1 was right down the pike, 91mph.

Mo does need the work. Who was it before that said it was never easy - they were right.

Okay. No harm no foul.

Nicely done, Mo.

299 He's been working more frequently lately.

302 i've been working more frequently as well.

Okay, Mariano, I would rather not see Konerko up as the tying run, so let's get this stiff loser schmuck and call it quits.

His velocity really is down.

Movement sharp, but velocity down.

302 and he's looking much sharper.

302 Yeah, but Torre was itching to use "the formula" tonight. The Wheel of Guts told him to.

I know we discuss ugly baseball players on the Banter alot, but have we ever got into the elephant man like Jason Schmidt?

i would have tried to not use Mo too.

Joe should just take a page out of how the 'Stros no-hit us a few years back. Every game:

Wang for 2 innings.
Moose for 2.
Andy for 2.
Rocket for 1.
Everyone and anyone in the 8th.
Mo for 1.

Why the F not? This way, all the Torre bashing ends because everyone pitches every night, and the focus can return to who is getting the job done and who isn't. Just a thought ;-)

305 Earlier in the year, I thought his velocity was fine, but his movement was gone.

Didn't Mo have a long AB against AJ for his 400 save?

Good.
Okay.

Weeping, you can see how fast he's throwing??? I could never do that, ever. (All pitches look like blazing fastballs to me.)

Yay, a Mariano grounder to second!

Nicely done, boys, nicely done.

A fairly elegant victory!

TClip!
Miggy!
Cano!
Mo!

308 I don't think we have. Otis Nixon has got to be on the short list though, for 'ugliest ballplayer of all time'.

Ha!

Clippard in the dugout is a riot.

jorgie should yell Ha as the pitch approaches home plate.

(no, i'm not serious).

For the record, Gameday has just about every Mo pitch at just about 95 mph.

318 hmm?

1-Zip A's over Boston, top of the 5th in Oaktown...

"Catch the ball, make a good throw, and do your job."

--Migel CAiro.

Music to my ears.

I like this guy.

322 i hope my wife is having fun. she just sent me a photo from that game. i don't think she has ever done thatbefore.

Hooray, a Yankee win. I'm off to bed before the wife kills me for staying up late. =)

And Schteeve, if you're still reading this, congrats on the engagement - I didn't have a chance to say it before.

321 Oh on YES they showed him cringing at one of those last foul balls.

326 ah, thanks.

323 He clearly is the longterm solution at first. Notch one for Cashman.

316 julian "mogwa" tavarez is up there too

Mo since the Beltre HR

9.2 IP 5 H 1 R 1 BB 9 K

.156/.206/.281

Walking men out of the bullpen is a serious problem. Britton has displayed pretty decent control, so I hope he gets the chance to move up in the pecking order. You simply can not have your late inning guys put men on base (especially in situations when they have the luxury to fire the ball down the middle).

324 Seamus, she's in attendance?
Boston is in a very quiet nosedive. They've lose four out of five, right?

320 YES had 92mph, consistently.

305 320 The YES gun is usually 2-3 mph slower. Watch the swings, that'll tell you which is more accurate on a given night. Pierz was thinking he had to cheat to catch up to Mo inside. That's not the kind of thing one does against a pitcher throwing 91. The gameday gun is probably right.

331 true, true, i'm curious to see how britton works out ... i thought he threw harder, but he barely broke 90 last night night, you don't have much room for error there

And his ERA is under 5 now.

Even if we don't do well this year, I want him to have very good numbers.

332 yes. she is out there for work.

324 Well you've done the right thing by staying home and following the Yankees game ;-)

The broadcast in on KICU (channel 6 if you have Comcast)...

alright ... 1 down, 2 more to go in the series, see y'all later

So where's Derek, now, around .320? He peaked in the .360s for a couple of weeks, right, and then he's been steadily declining for what, three, four weeks now?

I hope he levels off now, because we can't afford to have him around .300 unless everyone else actually starts to contribute.

Tonight sure looked good, and they said Damon's enthusiastic about his new assignment because it'll let his legs heal.

That would be cool if we could get him back around .300 in time.

And nice job by Clippard.

He hung in there.

338 stayed home in pittsburgh... :)

332 I think you are right about the sox losing 4 of 5.

Ah, DoucheK is on the hill for Baastin. Let's go, A's!

333 334 Well, put it this way: Gameday had Farns topping out at 97, most fastballs 95 or 96. In other words, Mo is just a hair slower than Farns's heat. So that should be fast enough.
We all agree that the cutter cutting is a lot more important than hitting 95mph, anyway, right?

340 An oh-fer-thirteen stretch (which Jeter had prior to his bunt single) will deflate a batting average pretty fast. It doesn't take 4 weeks to drop a lot of average. Jeter's slump has actually been much shorter.

340 Jeter is at .328.

Look at the White Sox' batting averages. Then ask yourself how on earth they can win more games than us.

He really does have good stuff, this Clippard.

He could really develop, no?

341 My bad. Realized after I typed it that you would probably know where to find the game on the tube if you were here... ;-)

343 Sure. He hasn't gotten by for the last nine years throwing nothing but straight mid-90's fastball.

346 I'm happy that he is sticking around for now. give him a chance. He hopefully will gradually improve control and limit his pitches per inning.

Uh Oh. Matsuzaka is having a good game. And I was going to watch ESPN tonight too. Oh well.

Mariano's K/9IP rate is actually as good as it's ever been outside of 1996. I don't think his early struggles were a stuff issue, but rather location problems. I more than comfortable attributing that to his sporadic workload and look forward to Mo being very good for the rest of the year. Maybe he has dropped a little bit, but I think accounts of his demise were in deed a bit premature.

double by swisher. 2-0.

351 My only fear was an injury issue.

350 You should watch, I think. One hit for Boston, six (including HR) for Cleveland.

You know who I used to love watch hit, aside from Mattingly?

Rickey.

That man had a nice swing, nice quick hands.

351 He has only 23 walks + hits in 20.2 innings this year. You can thank Marco Scutaro and that first Red Sox game for his terrible line.

Daisuke wasn't really pitching a very good game -- he got a little lucky, I think. Six hits and two walks, the homer and the double, he threw 96 pitches in five innings. Pretty lucky to get out of that with just two runs.

They are talking up Miggy on the Post game show.

What the hell is a "rep?"

They keep talking about Miggy getting more reps?

What's that?

I like Cairo offensively too, DJ!

(Justice says he likes Cairo offensively because there's a lot of things you can do with him and he doesn't overswing. I agree.)

Play Cairo.

I think Clippard does have a chance to get pretty good, yeah, Weeping, I agree. (I think I suggested that earlier.)

Kids can gain control, command, which is what he's missing. Of course, he has no fastball, which probably limits his upside. But he could be a Moose-type.

357 Matsuzaka dominated the Rangers when he gave up five runs in five innings.

This is Bob Gibson in 1968.

Exactly, just like Jose Vizcaino.

Agreed, David Justice.

Remember Vizcaino won us that game against the Mets in extra innings with that line drive over the shortstop's head?

I liked Vizcaino, too.

I like these kinds of guys.

A 'rep' is a repitition. I think football picked it up from weight room slang, and thence to baseball.

361 This is why I'll never write for a major paper.

360 Yay, another Moose-type!

Give me slap-hitting defenders and slop-ball pitchers anyday--that's so fun to watch!

Remember that video game from the '80s? What the hell was it called, not Microleague, but something else...

Anyway, you could choose "heat and sluggers" are "knuckles and liners."

I'd choose heat and sluggers, but only because it was hard to catch a flyball and the sluggers hit lots of flyballs.

Where was I going with this?

360 Moose had a fastball. Remember when he would sit 92-94?

Things are going south in Oakland.

367 trying to give boston a walking chance!

Ian Kennedy, that's a Moose-type. Low 90's, good curve, good control.

Dinardo walks Pedroia, Ortiz single, walks Manny on four pitches to load the bases with one out.
I can't stay up for this, I should go to sleep. Especially since it's unclear who I should be rooting for in that game! Oakland is a WC contender.

370 i saw eyes always on the big prize and the spoils of the WC will come.

besides. i hate bawston.

is he going to walk in a run? ass.

311 That's absolutely true, I remember that too.

He was still up around 94 and even 95, but poor movement.

Worlds ugliest man GIDP to end the inning without a run

Nice, DiNardo got out of it.

oh, i so take 373 back. the crapper really does suck!

Youk saves the day.
I guess I'm rooting against the Sox. Old habits die hard.

Lenny! gets the double play ball. Boston reamins shut out.

375 his propper name is the crapper.

375 World's Ugliest Jewish Major Leaguer.

That does it for me -- gotta take my son to early morning jazz band rehearsal tomorrow. (Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it?)

Ha!

380 noted.

Nothing better than watching Boston gets shut down by a guy they released.

(Man that Theo's a genius. Releases diNardo, but keeps the likes of Hansen and delCarmen.)

334 Ah, excellent, excellent point, stan, thank you!

You're right, I know what you mean.

Clippard dresses like the Beav

Aw, Clippard. He's such a midwesterner. A real farmboy!

Nice and all-American!

:)

Very "aw shucks."

386 Isn't he from Kentucky?

I think he may just have really poor fashion taste

g'night.

385 But he's very articulate.

Wow, he's not afraid to walk guys!

That's awesome!

He has a lot of confidence.

He doesn't want to give in, but wants to make guys hit his pitch.

I like this kid.

390 Totally.

366 Yeah, Moose did have a fastball in his prime, but still, Clippard was up to 89, right? That's hard enough if he learns to use it right.

Also, is it possible that his velocity could increase with age? Is he still young enough for that?

385 Exactly like the Beav!!

ha ha haha!

389 Yes, he is, and very well composed.

392 89-90 will do fine in he can keep it low and on the corners. He has the off-speed stuff to make it work. I like his curveball.

As for any increase, there's that old baseball cliche, "You can't teach velocity", and it's mostly true.

Every once in awhile you'll see a bolt from the blue, like when Rivera went from throwing high-80's to mid-90's in '94-'95, and sometimes guys gain 2 mph or so after Tommy John rehab, but otherwise, what you see from a 23 year-old pitcher is what you're gonna get. Maybe if he fills out, maybe if there's a mechanical adjustment to be made, he'll gain a little. But you can't flip a switch and have a guy throw harder.

Filling out or fiddling with mechanics may just as easily ruin him. As it is, he can be pretty good.

Johnson passed Roger for 2nd all time in ks tonight

396 Randy likes the national league. I'm happy for him. I really am. The bastar....

395 That's interesting, because hitters develop more power as they age, no? From say, 21-28 or so?

I look forward to watching Clippard develop.

398 Velocity peaks earlier, primarily because pitching wears the arm down continuously. Felix Hernandez throws 97 now, but he won't throw any harder at 28, he'll just have more scar-tissue in his arm. Hitting fly balls doesn't leave scar-tissue, so power-hitters develop longer.

...before injury and age catch up to them.

399 Ah, that makes perfect sense, thanks.

My father just told me Baseball Tonight says the Yankees just signed Runelvys Hernandez.

Please, Please, Please tell me I'm wrong.

ESPN is reporting that the Yankees signed Runelvys Hernandez.

403 Damnit.

Yeah, I hadn't really been paying attention to the TV until they said that, but I think they reported that it was to a minor league contract.

DAMNIT

I have a vague recollection that he pitched for the Red Sox last year. I'm going to look up his stats now.

404 His BP Reference page is the number one result for the google search 'Runelvys'

yhuj7976yut43769098076y

er, Baseball Reference.

He'll be on the big league team within two weeks.

And I was feeling so good after this game.

Ugh. And his numbers have gotten worse every year since he made his debut in 2002.

411 I bet he replaces Britton.

Elvis/Villone/Viz can work the seventh, Farns is our eighth inning guy, Proctor just throws all day every day in the bullpen until called, and Bruney can mop up five-run leads, or otherwise sit on his right-hand thumb.

Thats without even getting into the Royals declaring him too fat to pitch last year.

He is wretched. This is no justification for this.

Alan Embree closes out the Sox.

A night of vengeance for misfit pitchers in Oakland.

[414} *There is no justification for this.

A little welcome help from the A's. Final: 3-hitter vs Boston tonight, winning 2-0.

So am I right in assuming that Cairo will now be firmly entrenched at 1B b/c hes a warrior and can turn a 3-6-1 dp? Which means we have basically replaced Minky with a WORSE version of Minky? Yikes...

418 our first base situation isn't very good, so Cairo, Phelps, Minky all seems to be a bit of give and take at this point doesn't it?

i just looked at the all star voting for the first time. I know this is a popularity contest, but it really irks me that Posada isn't way out front, but fourth! arod and jeter are shoe ins.

421 Two hits and 3-6-1 DPs or not, Cairo is the worst solution at 1B (worse than Minky). First, he will never hit well enough to justify starting, let alone starting at a corner position. Second, by making him the primary 1B (or even primary 1B back-up), the team will feel compelled to call up another middle infielder as the back-up IF (Basak). So now the bench is weakened even more.

Either you stick with Phelps, or make a move for another 1B, but using Cairo this way is a disaster.

421 Grrr...I meant of course 419.

421 you state that "he will never hit well enough to justify starting, let alone starting at a corner position." How is this different than Minky?

My comment wasn't that Cairo was a good choice for 1B. It was that I don't see it being all that worse a choice than Phelps (whose defense does stink) or Minky (who can't hit baseballs). I'm not sure how your comment addresses this.

The point of a backup fielder is interesting, but when Minky went down didn't we need another infielder anyhow? And yes, while I feel good for Basak getting his opportunity, I doubt anyone but his family is excited about what he brings to the team.

Got in a bit late, and didn't feel like firing up the computer, is Clippard o.k.? It looked like he was pitching pretty well, and at only 89 pitches I expected to see him at least for the 6th inning -- so why was Proctor in there?

I mean, I can't imagine Torre pulling a rookie starter after only 5 innings (with a 4 run lead) just to put Proctor in there to get some work in. Right?

421 I don't get all this hubub about "corner positions."

It seems so rigid and formulaic to me. Who cares where the offensive production does or doesn't come from?

Brosius didn't hit very well, save for his first and last year, yet I'm glad he was on the team.

Cairo is what he is, which is a solid player who can come in and play 1B if you need him to, so why not let him do his job?

Can you elaborate on why "using Cairo in this way is a disaster?"

If you can explain it without using lots of numbers, I'd appreciate it.

I understand he's not the best player in the world, but given the situation, he seems fine as a temporary solution.

I'd certainly rather see him than Phelps, if Phelps' glove is as bad as people say it is.

424 I think you've managed to figure it out for yourself.

425 The point about corner positions is pretty simple: middle infielders don't hit as well as 1- or 3-basemen, so if you have, say, Alex Gonzales, you feel you aren't sacrificing a lot in the way of batting to get a vg fielder, whereas if you play Doug Scrabble at first, the 'opportunity cost' is very large. (Imagine using Mario Mendoza as your DH. Why is this so much worse than having him as your shortstop?)

426 But shouldn't the measure be the team as a whole?

I mean, if you've got Derek Jeter at short, Robinson Cano at second (or Sori before him) and Arod at third, you've already got three infielders, two of them middle infielders, who are far above average, so what's the harm?

It just seems kind of formulaic to me to say: "We can't afford to carry this one's bat as a first baseman" if we're getting production from elsewhere.

This team's problem isn't a lack of production from the likes of Mientkiewicz or Cairo, it's the lack of production from the guys who were actually expected to hit.

I don't know, it just seems to me like you want a team with enough production and balance and good enough fielding to win. I guess you could have a formula (we need the corner outfielders and infielders all to slug), but I don't see how one should be enslaved by it, as a hard-and-fast rule.

Bernie was a cleanup hitter as a centerfielder whereas our leftfielders were all mediocre, our shortstop was a much better hitter than our third-baseman, and our catcher could pop 20 homeruns.

Not very formulaic, but successful.

423 Minky was "hitting" an OPS+ of 81, though he was "improving" after a horrible start. For his career he is 98, the last two seasons 94 and 91. Let's assume he would hit somewhere between OPS+ 80 and 90 for the season. Cairo's career OPS+ is 78 (!), and his last two seasons (let's forget this year, when he has only a handful of ABs) were 64 and 59 (!!!). So, whlie Minky is super-stinky, he is not nearly as iggy as Miggy.

No, we don't need another IF, at least not another middle IF. We need another bat/1B. If you plan to use Cairo as super-sub for all IF positions, then why bring up another middle IF--to hit for Jeter, A-Rod or Cano? Better to call up another OF or someone who can PH.

425 I am sympathetic to your position, but only to a point. But look at it this way, some positions are easier to play defensively, others are harder. Therefore, when you consider the combined value of a player (Offense+Defense), you need to consider how much weight is granted each part. In the AL, a pitchers defensive value is 100% and offensive value 0%. So, it does not matter if an AL pitcher can hit or not, what matters is his pitching.

A very good defensive shortstop helps the team more than a very good defensive corner OF or 1B. Thus, you can afford a lighter hitting SS because his defensive cointributions will make up for his hitting. That is just not the case with 1B--the difference between the very best and very worst defensive 1B is not so great (despite how ugly bad defensive 1B can be), so you cannot justify losing a significant amount of offense from 1B in the name of stellar defense. Swapping CAiro in for week at 2B is thus tolerable; at 1B is inexcusable.

There is another way to look at this. Jeter is one of the best hitting SS in the league, and even with his subpar D, he is a net plus for the Yankees. Similarly, Jorge is having one of his best seasons at C--a traditionally light hitting position. Having great hitters at these positions gives the Yankees an advantage over other teams. BUT if you put an underperformer at another position (like 1B), you have squandered that advantage. A quick scan of the AL 1B stats according to MLB.com shows that the average 1B in the AL this year (which includes Stinky Minky and some part time players) is .766--the average of full-time 1B is higher. Minky's current .671 costs the team .105 OPS relative to the compatition. Now, put in Cairo (OPS .504 currently) and you are likely sacrificing the offensive advantage that both Jeter and Posada give you over their counterparts.

I already elaborated in my post on why Cairo is a disaster. In an emergency for a game or two, sure throw him out there. But you can't give away outs by starting him at a position where his counterpart is likely to be slugging over .500. It is also a disaster because of the way it affects the roster. As Cliff pointed out in the article (and I merely copied), once Cairo becomes the full-time 1B (and for how long--Giambi is not back for weeks), then you bench the better hitter in Phelps. Worse, Cairo is now unable to hold down the bench as the redundant back-up infielder that the Yankees crave, so they then call up another lousy, no-hit middle infielder Basak. This results in a bench of Phelps, Basak, and Nieves. Just let that sink in.

So, to add it up, with no fancy numbers--you put a horrible hitter in the field, at a position where his hitting probably wastes the offensive advantage of two plus hitters for the Yankees, which in turn necessitates putting more horrible hitters on the bench. If this situation lasts more than a day or two, I can see no other word to describe it than "disaster."

PS--I was not happy to see Brosius out there. They should have kept Lowell, and with the exception of his cancer year, the numbers bear that out.

426 I think maybe what I'm saying is that we don't want to fetishize these guidelinesk, do we?

427 In the meanwhile, I posted a response that addresses your question. You are correct, you do need to look at the team as a whole: but just because you have plus players at some positions does not mean that you "do no harm" by playing a negative player at another position.

And it is dead wrong that the team is not suffereing from the lack of production from Minky, but from Abreu, etc. They are suffereing from a lack of production from anyone who is not producing. The outs that Minky burns are just as valuabel as the outs Abreu burns. Indeed, since even the best players will make outs, you need to seed the roster with as many good hitters as possible; ergo, there is no room for starting Cairo, especially at a position where he greatly mitigates your offensive advantages at other positions.

430 Huh. I mean, of course you're right that the best team is one where 9 guys hit .400 rather than having 8 guys hit .400 and the ninth guy only .350, but come on.

What you say is perfectly rational, yet it seems like there's a fallacy there, though I can't put my finger on it.

Maybe the problem is that your expectations are too high, that you'll settle for nothing less than all-stars at every position.

I don't know, if the rest of the guys hit like they're supposed to, I really think this team can win with Cairo/Mientkiewicz.

They won with Brosius hitting .230.

431 Wrong--I do not expect all stars at every position. But there is no need for a team to play an astoundingly subpar player at a position when presumable a replacement level player can be found in AAA or on the waiver wires. Miguel Cairo is statistically among the very worst hitters in the league who is not a pitcher. There is just no argument to start him at 1B outside of some catastrophe.

432 Fair enough, so what are the team's other options? Who do you have in mind?

432 I mean, I understand Cairo's not the optimal long-term solution at 1B, but honestly, if he starts for the next few weeks, I really won't sweat it.

If everyone else hits, he's not going to bring the team down and I'm happy he's on the team in the role of backup, provided that he makes all the plays.

A team could be so good at hitting that it's going to score 7 runs/game even with a weak hitting 1B. Even in that case, replacing the weak hitter with a good one will increase scoring, increase winning, increase chances of making playoffs, and so on.
Again, it may be that sometimes there is no good alternative. But a weak-hitting 1B is a worse thing to have than a weak-hitting 2B, in any case, and that's the point about corner infielders. (I think we're better with Phelps at 1st than with Cairo, but that's a separate question.)

435 Right, agreed.

"Even in that case, replacing the weak hitter with a good one will increase scoring, increase winning, increase chances of making playoffs, and so on."

But this was my point about a line-up of .400 hitters save one, who only hits .350, and about wanting to have an all-star at each position.

I just can't get too worked up over Cairo's playing because to me, he's the least of this team's concerns, as was Mientkiewicz.

And for aesthetic reasons, I actually like having an underdog to pull for.

435 Perhaps we're better off with Phelps at 1B, but honestly, I just can't stand watching poor defense. It just kills me.

{433] 436 Sorry--away from the desk, not ducking the question. This will get be some flak, but I would have called up Andy Phillips or (more likely) give Shelley Duncan a try for a couple of weeks. I am convinced that either would outhit Cairo (Andy did last year despite being awful) and if you want to pull for an underdog, Andy and Shelley both fit the bill!

It seems to me that the biggest concerns must be the players who 'give away' the most. I mean, suppose you could replace any one player. Surely it should be the one who could be upgraded the most. A corner infielder who can't hit is a very good candidate for Most Upgradeable. And in this case, I think it's true.
Compare: Melky still isn't hitting too well, but now he's playing cf. That's a position that's very hard to upgrade to a good hitter, so (since Melky does field well) it's not a big concern.

I think you're looking at the matter like this. Which is better: having a second baseman with a .900 OPS and a first baseman with a .750 OPS, or vice versa? And the answer, of course, is that they're equal. It's just that in the first case you really ought to be looking around for an upgrade to your first baseman, while if it's the 2B who doesn't hit well you ought to leave things alone.

438 I could be down with that. Phillips can field, so it wouldn't torture me to watch him.

What about Shelley?

439 Clear, thanks.

I'm not against looking for upgrades, to be sure.

Certainly. But as a temporary solution, until said upgrade is found, playing Cairo out there doesn't scandalize me, is all.

Torre will always rides the hot hand. I'm sure he's said it himself, you play two guys at a position and hope one gets hot. You play him until he cools off then hope someone else gets hot. This is definetly true with relief pitching.

Cairo contributed offensively and defensively last night. I think this will be convicing to Torre, and maybe to Cairo too, that maybe they can ride a wave. I wouldn't be surprised to see him playing again tonight.

(Maybe Cairo will even be a hot hand wave that torre can ride... sorry for the bad metaphors.)

442 Ha ha ha haha!