Baseball Toaster was unplugged on February 4, 2009.
Before Roger Clemens arrived at the Stadium on Sunday, blotting out all unrelated baseball thought for roughly 48 hours, I was thinking about brawls. The benches cleared when Scott Proctor threw behind Yuniesky Betancourt (really not a guy you can enjoy picking on, once you’ve heard his story), but it never got farther than a bit of shouting and some profoundly manly milling around.
Unless I’m forgetting something, the Yankees haven’t had a real punches-thrown kind of brawl since 2004 against the Red Sox (the infamous Varitek/A-Rod imbroglio), and even that one was fairly tame... or maybe it’s just that it will always live in the shadow of 2003’s immortal Pedro vs. Zimmer title bout. Has it really been three years? Someone needs to create a reliable database for this kind of vitally important information (paging David Pinto!).
I should say up front that I am a total hypocrite when it comes to baseball brawls. I went to Quaker meeting as a kid and generally consider myself nonviolent; I’ve never hit anyone, except for that one time in fifth grade (and Fat Matt the Rat had it coming). I actually have a hard time enjoying football or boxing because I find them too consistently brutal. But I do enjoy a good baseball brawl, and I’m certainly not alone in that. This instinct probably doesn’t say anything good about humanity’s instinctive preferences in entertainment. I suspect it’s a vague, domesticated version of the quality that made ancient Romans turn to a pal and say, “Hey amicus, what say we go down to CitiColosseum, have a few cold ones, and watch a couple of guys fight to the death! I hear it’s Luggage Tag Day.”
This is where we insert the obvious disclaimer that you never want to see anyone get seriously hurt – that stops being fun in a hurry. But that’s a rarity in even the roughest diamond fights these days, which are at least 85% shoving, grabbing, valiantly holding someone back, indignantly allowing yourself to be held back, wrestling, cursing, or walking aimlessly around trying to look busy. (Unless you’re Kyle Farnsworth. Then you personally constitute* the other 15%. Now that I think about it, Farnsy’s presence on the Yankees may actually be enough of a deterrent, by itself, to explain the lack of brawls in the last few years).
That said, I have to say I don’t buy the argument that teams need to incite brawls, retaliate in bean ball wars, or get violently angry in order to “get fired up” and play well. In the wake of April’s Red Sox catastrophes, I heard all over the place that the Yankee pitchers needed to throw at more Red Sox – “I mean, I’m not saying you have to hurt someone, but if you pitch inside and you hit them, so be it” was how this was usually couched – but it seems to me that the absolute last thing you need, when your pitching is flopping around on the ground like a dying fish, is to put David Ortiz on base for Manny Ramirez, or Manny on for J.D. Drew. There was no particular reason to think that any of the Red Sox had thrown at the Yankees; the situation might be different if the teams actually had any reason to dislike each other personally, but those days are gone. Personally, I think sports writers and announcers and talk radio guys only spout this stuff because they can’t get away with saying “hey, a brawl right now would sure make this game vastly more entertaining, wouldn’t it?” You could hear it on the YES network Sunday; Michael Kay was getting an alarmingly Joaquin-Phoenix-in-Gladiator kind of edge to his voice.
What do you think: does fighting ever actually help a team, or is it just sordid entertainment for the rest of us? Or maybe both? What’s the best or worst brawl you can remember, and how come the Yankees haven’t had one in three years? How much do you want to see Kyle Farnsworth break out his moves against, say, Barry Bonds? Do you do feel bad for wanting to see it that much?
*You really, really need to click on the link under the photo here and watch the “Guillen’s HBP starts scrum” clip. I have linked to it before, and it’s about five minutes long, but absolutely worth it. Those Tigers announcers are classic (“There’s big Farnsworth now, and -- WHOOOOA!... Well, you knew when big boy got there, it was gonna get ON!”. “That is one guy you do not want to mess with. Period”).
Also, as a bonus, this clip features Jose Lima.
Jersey, I remember that one too. The Yankees absolutely owned Benitez after that game, if I remember correctly. (We may have owned him before too, but my memory seems focused on the aftermath.)
Ventura charging Nolan Ryan always stands out to me. Robin Ventura is the last person I'd expect to charge, but there he was...punched were thrown.
http://tinyurl.com/29ypz5
Watching ballplayers go all Naomi Campbell on eachother does nothing for me.
Jerry Springer brawls are where the good stuff's at.
http://cache.deadspin.com/images/2006/03/tavarezpunch.jpg
The fact that we get to watch these awkward exhanges on TV heightens the action, but really it's just a big pushing and shoving match. I'd like to see baseball teams hire a conditioning coach who really doubles at night as an Ultimate Fighting Challenge contestant. When all Hell breaks loose, the guy comes out and wipes the field with the opposition by himself. The outfield has to be converted into a makeshift civil war hospital to accomodate the casualties.
THAT would be a good baseball fight. Uh, it's 11:30pm in Japan. Time for bed.
I had me great box seats to a game last year and got to go walk down to the 1st base 'wall' where a couple of players were signing autographs. I was standing about 5 feet from Farnsy. Let me tell you, I wouldn't mess with this guy, he's built like a f*cking linebacker! He's HUGE!
The best part was that Farns charged Wilson, and not vice versa. Wilson took about two steps towards the mound, waved his bat vaguely, and Farns charged and pummeled Dunn into the ground. To charge at someone bigger than you (Farns is 6'4" 220, Wilson is 6'5" 235) while he his holding a large stick takes some serious cajones. Or serious crazy.
Unfortunately, I don't think the 2007 Farns would do anything like that. He might break his glasses...
The fights can be entertaining, but really, that's what hockey is for. I prefer my baseball more peaceful. As far as fights spurring a team on, that seems like a myth to me. Baseball isn't a game of aggression, its a game of form and patience. If anything, a little boost of aggression probably makes things worse for performance.
On a related note, with fewer players on the juice--will there be fewer fights fueled by roid rage?
The other thing I loved about the brawl was when Raines hit the first pitch back for another homerun…almost like saying "take that too". Homers usually precede brawls, but I wonder how many have come sandwiched in between two?
(Roid Rage sponsored by "Still Awake at 12:30am", the supplement of the stars, and bloggers of the world) ;)
http://tinyurl.com/yutgvh
Fight Breaks Out At Boston Pops
BOSTON, May. 10, 2007
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(AP) Concert-goers, and even Boston Pops conductor Keith Lockhart, were caught off-guard on Thursday night when a fight broke out on opening night at usually sedate Symphony Hall.
Television video of the fight showed two men struggling in the balcony - one having his shirt pulled off - as several people stood around them.
Lockhart briefly halted the performance, which featured Ben Folds, while the men were escorted out.
I actually gave up my tickets for the O's-Yanks brawl b/c of some lame excuse like homework or something, and of course watched the game on tv anyways. I'll never forget Graeme "the Enforcer" Lloyd, classic.
You know, when it comes down to it, i think the Yanks would probably, all things ocnsidered, pummel the Sox in a brawl. Not only do we have Krazy Kyle, but Giambi, Bruney, Posada, Proctor (I bet he'd take Sturtze's place). The Sox have, who, Varitek? he fights in armor. I would guess Papelbon would be a fighter, and probably Wily-Mo, but not really anyone else.
Not that it really matters of course...
Dont forget Cinny, Bloody Cinny.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/kos102/2007/Yankees/Other/farnsworth.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/kos102/2007/Yankees/Other/Paul_Wilson.jpg
Here's the video link (right under the byline - you may have to use an IE browser, I had trouble opening it with Firefox)
http://www.mlb.com/news/gameday_recap.jsp?ymd=20030619&content_id=382934&vkey=recap&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin
the always entertaining Donald Trump berated Mark Cuban today as a "LOSER!" [emphasis original]
HA!
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/kos102/2007/Yankees/Other/nettles-lee.jpg
of course, Bill Lee got the nickname spaceman in part for throwing an derivation of the Eephus pitch, the Leephus pitch or spaceball.
Marichal hit Dodger catcher Johnny Roseboro on the head with a bat after Marichal thought Roesboror's return throw to the mound was thrown too close to his head.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a81/kos102/2007/Yankees/Other/marichal.gif
Pete Rose takes a gamble and punches Bud Harrelson in the '73 playoffs (video link at the bottom right)
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/postseason/mlb_lcs.jsp?feature=video
There was a fight at Ebbets Field late in the 1953 season in which Carl Furillo, who hated Leo Durocher like Achilles hated Agamemnon, nearly choked Durocher to death. Furillo emerged from the bottom of the scrum with a season-ending finger injury, but his consolation prize was a shoplifted batting title.
Don't know the average age here, but anyone remember Deion Sanders & Carlton Fisk squaring off? This had to be back in '89.
27 Lee claims he was dropped on his shoulder in that brawl, and wasn't the same after that.
* I don't remember Deion v Fisk, but I sure remember when Deion dumped two buckets of ice water on McCarver in a post-series interview!! "That's hot" ~ to quote my girl.
* Lee did blow out his shoulder. He was lost for the remainder of the 76 campaign. Only started 14 games that year. Yanks won the pennant (Chambliss' walk-off).
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