There is also the impending streak of how many days in a row firing Joe Torre will be discussed.

What in the world is up with Bobby Abreu? Has anyone figured out whether those bunts are on his own or coming from the dugout? It's painful to see someone I've been a fan of for so long struggle so terribly.

The last sentence is spot on. Is it true that throwing a few pitches every day is worse than throwing a bunch of pitches every few days?

Re Abreu, everyone slumps. A-God himself is just 3 for his last 18 (I believe). He'll turn it around.

2 Torre basically said after today's game that Abreu's bunting on his own. The exact quote was something along the lines of: if you don't give a guy any sign he's free to do what he wants.

1 Yeah. That we can break right now. It's not going to happen. Move along.

1

Tell me about it. I taped the game and read the thread later on the evening. I felt like I was walking into De La Hoya vs. Merriweather or something.

Yikes is all I can say. Fire Joe Torre now? First of all, I doubt very many of the players would be happy about that, not that that should matter I suppose. However, Arod's fall back to earth has shined a light on the fact that six of our nine hitters are slumping. The rotation is about as bad as I can remember during Torre's tenure, and the bullpen--less Henn--is like pulling names out of a hat. Who can tell the difference between any of them? None of this is Joe's fault. Let the rotation get healthy and then resume the fire Joe Torre talk.

The team is playing badly. Not hitting and not pitching. It is not unheard of, and isn't reason to throw the life raft overboard and jump! Admittedly I am a big Deadliest Catch fan, pardon the metaphor.

I like Joe. None of what is happening right now is his fault. However, we are stuck with what we have right now. The reason Joe should be let go has nothing to do with the regular season, as we have made the playoffs every year he has been here. It is the fact that he will refuse once again to start guys on short rest and overuse relievers in the post-season should we make it. I've said this before, but Joe should have been fired the day after he started Kevin Brown in 2004. Not because it would have changed the outcome--once again, none of you know what would or would not happen if Joe takes a different appraoch during games, and I wish you all would stop saying "this never would have happened if Joe had... Because you dont have any idea--but because it didnt give the team the best chance to win an elimination game. Really, that is his only job. Basketball coaches mix up rotations and mix guys in and out to try to get the right fit. Moving a lineup around is no different, and at least Joe does try to mix it up when we are playing badly.

We can get out of this funk. The players decide the outcome after all, and whether to use Proctor, Bruney et al. isnt all that big of a deal as some make it out to be.

If Joe should be fired it will be because should we make the post-season and are stuck in a game five or seven, he will leave his best pitching option on the bench because he doesn't have enough rest, or he is "worried" about him.

This is not the time to fire Joe. He has no control over the freak pitching injuries and lineup slump. Be careful what you wish for mid-season, the grass isn't always greener, whether it grows from the meticulously sculpted lawn of Joe Girardi or Don Mattingly.

Let's get healthy and see what happens. The fact that they are going with Hughes so soon is a sign that things are bad, and I don't think Joe has any control over what is happening. This team feels just like last year's to me. Guys are thrilled when they hit a walk off, or when something extraordinary occurs, but I do not see that gritty, do the little things and play hard every-day-play that wins titles. Just my two cents. That is what upsets me, not whether Joe should pull a guy with a busted fingernail and fresh from the DL, out after 84 pitches. And who he brings in after that really doesn't matter. Did I fall asleep, wake up, and we now have a stud in the bullpen that we didnt have before.

I think it's pretty well accepted that RPs are more effective pitching 3IP once every three games rather than 1IP every game. I think Torre knew this at one point in his managerial career but has forgotten. I'm putting Torre's magic number at 10 games out of first place. He's got 3.5 games of rope left. Nobody is guaranteed a fairy tale ending in New York. Not Bernie, not Donnie Baseball, not Paul O'Neill, and not Joe Torre. Nobody.

5 Great post, V...

And sit tight for the next 2 minutes or so... :-)

6

But what is he to do when his starters are averaging 4.8 innings per start and every reliever he brings in proceeds to cough up runs? The statistics are there. Most relief innings. Fewest innings by starters. They play 162 games in 180 days. There isn't much time for rest when your starters are asking the bullpen to give them more than four innings every game. I am not being contrary, but what else can he do. All he can do is ask relievers to take one for the team and blow the game, so that others can rest.

You say: "I think it's pretty well accepted that RPs are more effective pitching 3IP once every three games rather than 1IP every game." However, teams win more games when their starters go 7+ innings per game. Teams win more games when their offense averages 6+ runs per game. But that's blue sky perfect world stuff. Right now the Yankees are not in a perfect world.

It is easy to say "don't bring him in again," but then, who do you bring in?

We just have to suck up the fact that we have a slumping offense and absolutely no healthy pitching and hope that they can pull it together. The Red Sox wont be healthy all season, and we have a much better offense.

It kills me when the "Joe must stay" crowd says him being fired shouldn't be discussed and then give a 500+ word essay on why they think he shouldn't be fired.
I think it's absurd to bring a RP in for 2 or 3 outs, then another for another inning, etc instead of letting guys pitch longer and less often. I've heard a lot of pitchers say the number of innings is important, but not nearly as important as the number of appearances. I have yet to hear one say the opposite.

BTW this is the same guy who in one of baseball's more mean-spirited moments, batted Arod 8th in the play-offs just last fall.

5 I agree that firing Torre, for this or that in game move would be a mistake. However, I think there are legitimate reasons to question his managing, irrespective of where the team is. I believe the Yankees are in a transition period now, these last few years has been more of a transition period for the team, as we are shifting from the old guard to several new players. Throughout, Torre has shown a reluctance to give these players a shot, only playing them when his hand is forced. Case in point right now, is continually trotting Minky out, who, despite a freak HR today is batting .150 and is not Keith Hernadez at 1B. Where was his amazing range during that Crisp triple last week? A couple of years ago, it was Torre continually playing Womack instead of giving Cano an honest shot for week after week.

Torre has also shown an inability to effectively manage a pitching staff. I don't care if he brought in reliever X who gave up a run. Sometimes that happens, and you can't predict it. There is never any perfect move. However, he has a tremendously overworked bullpen at the moment and yet he has had an absurdly quick hook with his starters so far. There have been several times when a starter is under 100 pitches in the 5th, 6th or 7th and when one or two batters reach base here comes Torre out of the dugout. In addition, his inability to designate a long man and just let the guy pitch has killed the bullpen. I want to win as much as anyone, but when we're down 4 or 5 runs, is it really necessary to burn 3 relievers? As Cliff and others have said, just taking the loss sometimes can win the war. I wonder if Dice-K was on our team, when he gives up a few runs in the middle innings, would Torre leave him in as Francona has done to battle?

His tactical decisions are just downright awful in-game. We've all gone over this before, but pinch running for Giambi in the 7th inning (when he is the DH) with a 1 or 2 run lead is just dumb. I'm sorry, it is. I know Abreu bunting is supposed to be on his own, well if its clearly a stupid move its Torre's job to tell him not to. Put on a "no bunt" sign.

Torre's real strength has always been motivating and insulating his players in a harsh NY environment. However, after his treatment of A-Rod last year, both the SI article and the lineup shakeups have caused me to question this. Love or hate A-Rod, he is arguably one of the best all around players in the game, and Torre's failure to maximize his potential is frustrating. Of course, some, or most of this goes on Alex, or whoever the other player is (I'm using him as an example), and maybe nothing Torre could have done would have helped, but if he really thought contributing to the SI article was the way to go, he has lost touch with some players.

As for the players standing up for him. That's both unsurprising and the correct thing to do. I've had coaches in various sports that I have downright hated, and I would have publicly gone to bat for them. That's what a team does. Also, many who are there have played a long time with him. He also seems to be popular with his players. You don't want to lose him, well tough, then play better.

I don't mean this to say "Fire Torre now!" I don't yet know if I feel that way, but since the end of last season I have found myself questioning him whereas in the past I have always been one of his defenders. I love him, and what he's done for NY and the Yankees. I think he is a decent, stand up, honorable man and a great manager. That said, I'm no longer 100% sure he's the right manager for this team.

Sigh. So much for 4. You can type all you want. Torre's job is not on the line. Regardless of whether you think it should be or think it shouldn't, it's just not.

8 10 Not that I'm in the "Fire Torre" camp -- because I'm not -- but he really is making some lousy decisions of late. The pinch-runner for Giambi last weekend in Boston was just horrific -- I won't rehash all the reasons why. And I really don't know why Phelps is even on the roster since it's clear that he is not going to get any sort of chance.

I would also have to agree that he is being too quick with the hook on the starters. No way Hughes should throw 100 pitches, but as far as guys like Wang, Igawa and Pettitte are concerned, sometimes they just have to stay out there and work out of trouble or get bombed. Simply because if they don't, you destroy your pen in meaningless innings. When your starter comes out of the game before the fifth inning, the guy you bring in has to pitch at least two - that's just a given. If you don't have a guy in the pen who can come in and handle long relief, then you have the wrong roster.

All that having been said, I thought Igawa actually saved Gator's job on Saturday. Without that outing, I would have expected Guidry to get his walking papers Monday. And again, I'm not saying that would have been right, but right or not, somebody's head is going to roll very soon and he is actually the most likely target IMHO.

Up until this weekend, I actually didn't think the team was playing all that badly (considering the injuries) -- they've just been unable to close out the close games when they needed to.

Seriously, at this rate of luck soon A-rod and Posada will knock each other out cold while colliding to catch a pop up and both be out for the season and Yankees will play Andy Phillips and Wil Nieves the rest of the way.

All the injuries so far have mostly been small injuries that really can happen to anyone anytime, but somehow managed to happen to the Yankees at a ridiculas rate and all at the same time. unbelievable

Wow, I was going to contribute to a recent heated discussion here, by noting that maybe the reason for the decline in discourse on the Banter this season has been Alex and Cliff not having time to intervene as much...

But when Cliff puts his foot down (4), he just gets ignored...and people post longer than ever dissertations on a very tired, repetitive topic. Do posters really not want to listen to the folks who run the place and have some actual knowledge and authority?

Soooooo... anybody like stuff?*

How 'bout dem Golden State Warriors, huh?

Is this nuts or what? But if they blow the 3-1 lead over the Mavs, I say Nellie gets drawn and quartered at Pier 39. The b@stard. Who's with me?

.

*Sorry. A Simpsons reference, breaking the awkward... oh, never mind...

15 That was a great game, I actually enjoyed the NBA for once.

I haven't for a while, considering i'm a Knicks fan. This is why I'm not fretting over the Yanks. It could be a lot worse.

Well, on the bright side and to be an optimist, let's just say that even considering the nail, Wang was pretty effective (6Ip and 4 runs ain't so bad, and he could have done more), Pettitte will rebound from his last start, Igawa has put together more good than bad starts, and Hughes will dominate tomorrow. The offense will obviously hit sooner or later...

Sooo, things are lookin up!

It was a great game. Could this be the biggest upset in NBA history?

Am I the only one who wanted to see Kobe carry the Lakers through the playoffs? He's so entertaining to watch, and yes, the Suns are great, I get it, but I'm sick of them.

If we want to talk about streaks, how about Jeter? 56/58, good grief, if there's anyone who can make a run at it it's him.

16,18 Same here. Knicks fan too, and only drawn into the NBA playoffs thanks to the unexpected rise of the Warriors. Always been a Chris Mullen fan (St. Johns), and living out here through some really terrible Warrior teams — and seeing my extended family suffering but sticking with them — I've got a soft spot for 'em.

16

I am with you brother! Some of the best basketball I've seen in quite some time. Just completely humbling and manipulating the Maverick's poor little brains.

Its great because those fans up there are so great!

18

I was at the game today. It was awful.

18

The Laker game that is. Kobe has no help. Not much he can do.

21 Yeah the atmosphere in that arena was incredible. Made it hard to root against the Warriors. I can't wait for the Garden to return to that type of atmosphere, when (if) the Knicks make the playoffs again and look like they have a chance in a series.

24

I hope you're a young man. It is going to be a long wait. Don't smoke, and excercise every day.

25 Ha! At this point, I'm just waiting til 2010 when Wade and LeBron become available.

16, Sure, you think it could be worse, after all the Dolans could own the team, right? Ha ha... then you read this:

http://tinyurl.com/2wnlwu

NOOOOOOOOOOO!

Okay, okay, it's just speculation. There's absolutely no reason to think this will actually happen. But just seeing the phrase "Dolan family has keen interest in buying Yankees" absolutely made my blood run cold.

26 Maybe The Boss is so p*ssed at the Dolans headline headfake, he'll buy the Knicks and right the ship. Wade, The King, Duncan and Kobe would be a good start...

28 Yeah and adding David Lee to that would make it a pretty good team. That is probably the only player I'd like the Knicks to keep long term, fun guy to watch.

27 If that were to actually happen, I'd probably just abandon sports altogether.

28 I love it. Although, even if he weren't already in poor health, the salary cap would just kill Steinbrenner.

31 Yeah, I'm guessing George is a little too old school for the cap concept, huh? It would have been fun to watch a 'Stein (in his heyday) vs Stern' New York tabloid war on team payroll issues.

And while I gotcha, the Banter is even a better place with your writing, and looking forward to more...

Cliff, maybe you could direct folks to your source on why Torre will not be fired this season? It'd be a public service, both for those who want to see him fired and for those who want to see others shut up about it....

32 Agreed about the writing, always fun to get different perspectives, especially from great writers.

Plus Cliff and Alex are starting to bore me. (just kidding guys)

4 11 I don't know how you can be so sure of that, Cliff. Two more weeks of the same, 11-19, two times through the current rotation, and I'm just not sure the old man doesn't have it in him. After all, every one keeps saying Bossman still pulls the strings. Torre says he talks to him. And one of the hallmarks of dementia is the occasional bouts of lucidity.

I mean would it really be a surprise?

Me, I don't think Torre should be fired, but this season will probably be the end of the run regardless. So for him and Big Stein to both go out to pasture in one last dramatic panic reaction would at least be a fitting conclusion to a storybook Yankee era.

Don't think the basketball banter should appear heeeer. Also, the IM quality of some of the comments wearrrrs. Time consuming and distracting. Can we get back to the game, please.

Yesterday couddda been worse. Damon's arm won't get stronger. Everyone takes extra base. He's broken. Leg. Shoulder. Back. Not leaning into the ball. Looks like he is in constant pain. No help behind him. Melky has 2nd year jinx.

Unusual DP saved a run. Running catch by Abreau. At least some defense. Jorge's PB. He looks tired, early.

As for the Janks, no way to fix what is broken. We saw the problems during the Spring.

I believe in terms of the Banter, the majority thought Stots was a below-average pitching coach (and this was when the Yankees were winning). Over the time of this 'debate', I read 2 extensive analysis pieces that looked at how players did before/with/after Stots, what types of pitchers may have responded better then others, and other factors.

The conclusion of both pieces was that Stots was average to slightly above average. Althought both admitted that due to many unaccountable factors, a 'true' analysis was difficult to do.

I can't really say what linkd of pitching coach Guidry is. Certainly, with injuries, 2007 has given us little to go by. It especially can't be easy when you and a pitcher don't speak the same language.

Here's what my gut, my eyes, and what little common sense about the issue sees:
I think Bowa and Pena has both been great assets to the club.
I don't know what Kerrigan is doing, but he has a lot of experience and is generally well regarded in the MLB community.
Just for what he has done with ARod, Kevin Long gets great marks from me. It can't hurt having Mattingly around either.
Guidry appears to be somewhat 'old school'. You listen to a guy like Lieter, and you know he's analytical. I think both pitching and hitting are indeed 'sciences', and very small changes can make a huge difference in results. My pure speculation is that Gator is not the best guy we could find.
Don Mattingly is one of the most popular Yankees in history. Just seeing him in uniform gives most of us a warm glow. But he had very little involvement in baseball, except for his STs with the Yankees. The Yankees and Torre have been his mentors. I have no idea what kind of 'baseball man' he is, and weather he is a quality hitting coach, bench coach or manager.

Lohud seems to think Mattingly was promised the throne. Maybe that's way Giradi is in the booth. Again, it's pure speculation, but knowledge-wise, I would have to think Mattingly is 'Joe Torre Light'.

Torre had enough respect for Zimmer, that I believe Zimmer influenced a lot of Torre's calls. I wonder if Mattingly can do that. I think Girardi is 'pushy' enough and contrasts Joe's style enough, that he might offer and 'push' is own ideas.

I don't know how to rate Ronny and Donny. I love seeing them in Yankee uniforms, but to me it seems like Yankee nepotism, as opposed to the best man for the job.

I think we are 'stuck with Mattingly' simply because he is so popular with the fan and has so much 'Yankee History' on his side.

Knowing that Torre is great with players and the media, but also knowing his strengths/weaknesses at in-game management, I personally would like to see strong, technically oriented guys as the bench and pitching coaches. Guys who will challenge Torre (in a productive way) and influence the team.

Today, I don't think Cashman and Torre are the story. I believe it is Mattingly and Guidry. with all the resources this team has, should we/could we have really 'high end' guys at these 2 coaching positions?

Frank Torre is undergoing a kidney transplant tomorrow. He's expected back before Pavano.

Sooooo, anyone think Pat Riley should be fired? According to SportCenter, this was the third time his team gets bounced out of the playoffs in the first round, the year after his team won the title.

There's nothing wrong with the team that a dominating start by a pitcher won't cure. To me, it looks like everyone is waiting for that 8/9 inning, 1 R, 2 H, 0 BB, 10K start, so they can all relax with a "ah, it's ok, he's on the mound today."

And what about JD?
Over the years, I have heard Johnny modestly talk about how banged up he was while still playing. But the last story I read had him with more parts hurting then being OK.

He's a talented guy and even hurt, he is at least an 'average' player. Again, I don't remember if you remember his dive/crash if CF some weeks ago, but he really hit the ground hard and awkwardly.

Obviously, he is not hitting now and has a 'power' loss. As bad as Melkdud has been, considering his defense and arm, at this point, I'd like to jive JD a week or so of R&R, and see if Melky steps up. JD could always PH is a pinch.

When you're 'not right' physically, I think you are even more prone to (more serious) injury.

Should Damon be out of the lineup for a while?

38 Does that mean you think Frank should be our pitching coach?
39 Does that mean you think Ron and Don are the best guys for the job?

Injuries are sometimes the players' fault (not preparing correctly) but one would agree the depth is the solution to injuries, which is the GM.
Melky (last year) did a great job when matsui went down... this year - virtual no show.
As a sox fan - well, this is great so far - the key phrase is "so far".
That NY won 5 last august and the sox were down because of injuries and this year, it has flip flopped. Bottom line - it'll go down to the wire.

That Damon signing - not so good, huh? Clearly declining. And still throws like a girl.
Good teammate though.

Seen during this weekend. Micalphabet's homerun - the NY bench. Most went to the railing as it cleared the stands. Except for arod. He remained sitting on the bench.

41 Huh, me? I dunno about Ron & Don. I think they are more Yankee Names, rather than baseball lifers, a la Zim. If I had to choose a successor to Torre, it would be Randolph.

1 For the record, I'd like to point out that the "fire Joe Torre" deadhorse seems to evolve even without my contributions :). Maybe I not entirely responsible for the Banter's new "gloomy" tone after all :)

11 My position has been made clear on the topic and I am also starting to agree it is becoming a tiresome issue, but it sure seems as if Torre's future is at the forefront in the minds of Yankee fans.

6 Not Stengel, Ruth, Rizzuto...the list goes on and on.

38 So is Jesus. (Too blasphemous?)

40 Should JD be out of the lineup? Perhaps...but infortunately, a healthy Melky might not be much better.

What I think seriously needs to be considered is a lineup overhaul until Damon gets healthy. Why not lead off Abreu and put Giambi 3rd? Then you could move Matsui up to 5th and put Posada between him and Cano. That would break up the back-to-back lefties and leave the bottom of the lineup for Damon/Melky and Phelps/Minky.

The offense is clearly not the problem, but a few guys are now struggling and/or banged up, so a reshuffling wouldn't be the end of the world. I know Damon might suffer a bit of a blow to his ego at the 8-spot, but that didn't stop Torre from moving Arod down in the playoffs.

4 Cliff, apologies for that. I was actually typing my comment in 10 before your post came up.

46 I think so...personally, I'd rather beat deadhorses than go down that road.

This post is not about Joe Torre.

I went to the game yesterday and spent the money on stubhub to get really good seats for my brother's bachelor's party. We were right behind the dougout.

Unfortunately there was a loud SOB right behind us who couldn't stop yelling. Now, I know people yell at the Stadium, I do, too. But this guy (and his two annoying women) had a really, really loud and grating voice. He must have had 10 beers the whole game and was rude, obnoxious, and just low class all the way. Whenever anyone mentioned he might, just, want to tone it down he threatened them and said "I paid for my tickets, you ain't at home, yo!"

So here's to you, buddy, what ever your name was. I'll always remember your ugly face. And one day, when you appear on the 5 o'clock news because someone did something bad, really bad, to you, I'll remember you, and smile, and know that you got what's coming to you.

Oh, and your kid looks retarded. Better get that checked out.

I'm a bit nervous to hear what might happen in Yankeeland today. I don't think it will have a positive result on the team if Torre is fired mid-season (biggest insult to a coach). So I hope Cliff is correct. Otherwise, as I said yesterday, I'm indifferent in that I'm not exactly a huge fan of his in-game managing. But I'm not as down on it as some others either.

Wang is my biggest concern. A horizontal nail tear sounds nasty and you did see a clear drop in his control in the 4th. I hope he can cure that with his glue concoction or whatever. Believe it or not, we have have an intact rotation this week with:

Hughes
Pettite
Moose
Igawa
Wang

Igawa remains somewhat of a question mark, but has shown his potential is there. We all know what the others are capable of. It may be a lot to expect a lot from Hughes just yet, but if looks at least competent it will be nice to see. It is sounding like he may be up to stay.

51 As much I've been one advocating a rush to judgment, I can understand the argument saying Torre deserves to at least have a few weeks with the rotation you listed above. Ok...fine...I can live with that. Going forward, however, he now has to do a better job managing the bullpen.

Consider the following:

In 2006, Scott Proctor yielded an OPS+ of 148 on 0 days rest. His OPS+ for 1 and 2 days rest were 90 and 76 (all other segments had a relatively low sample). The same patter holds for his career (although this year is a little skewed because Proctor's OPS+ is actually not that bad, which could be a sign he has been unlucky or just a variation of a small sample).

If you look at Vizcaino, his pattern seems to suggest he is best utilized every other day. In other words, he should be on the Farnsworth plan.

The biggest shock to me is that Farnsworth's career numbers suggest he is BETTER on 0 days rest. His two worst splits are 1 day and 4 days rest. Scarily, last season, Farnsworth was also better on 0 days rest, but that's because his 1-day rest OPS+ against was 173!! The only time Farns pitched well last season was on 2-days rest.

Finally, in a much smaller sample, Bruney appears to thrive on repetitive work. With too much rest, his OPS+ starts to climb.

So, instead of just sniping at Torre, I'd suggest the following:

Use Viz and Proctor interchangeably…neither should pitch on consecutive games or in the same game. Use Bruney 2 of every 3 "meaningful" games (no more 10-2 games like in Cleveland), and Farnsworth for the other. That gives you two righty tandems. Henn should be promoted to meaningful situations, with mop up roles delegated to Myers or whatever extra righty is up in the pen. Of course, Mo is still there to close and provide occasional coverage when the right-handed tandems are overworked.

I don't think this bullpen is inherently awful. If managed correctly, it can do the job. The starters need to do their part, but Torre has to quickly come up with a better plan for better bullpen utilization. My plan might not be the best, but I think we can all agree that Torre is right now using an ad hoc approach.

Joe or Donnie or somebody needs to tell Bobby Abreu to stop bunting. It is no way to get out of a slump.

17 Wow, have things gotten so bad that you are turning into a starry-eyed optimist?

53 I completely agree, Simone. Abreu is pressing, and its helping no one. Particularly not A-Rod, who was supposedly benefitting from Damon, Jeter, and Abreu seeing so many pitches before he bats.

Torre is also pressing. Didn't they used to call Sparky Anderson "Captain Hook" because he'd get starters out of games so fast at the slightest hint of trouble? That's exactly what Torre's been doing, and its going to keep hurting the pen until he stops.

Someone tell him to do what Cliff said, leave someone out there to throw 110 pitches and get through 7+ innings. Even if the Yanks lose 25-0, I'd be worth it.

Its a marathon, not a stretch.

Maybe Johnny Damon's chiropractor will fix him up today.

But we kind of saw this coming. So did the Red Sox, which is why they let JD go. A one-year contract, even two, maybe, but you knew a four-year contract would come back to bite us.

I suppose a healthy Melky would be better than an injured Damon, if only on defense. But if we're going to sit Damon, I'd say put him on the DL and call up one of the kids. Maybe Shelly Duncan - he's hitting very well right now.

http://tinyurl.com/2h39sh
Big Papi book signing today at noon at the 5th ave Barnes & Noble.

Torre should be fired. There have been injuries but what has Torre done to make it better? He is getting paid $7 million for solutions, not excuses.

He has lost 10 of his last 13 playoff games. The '06 playoffs were a disaster. The '07 season is a disaster. It is time for a new manager.

55 Its a marathon, not a sprint.

Don't know where stretch came from. It is Monday morning.

Don't worry, be happy.

http://www.nysun.com/article/53427

52 I agree with most of your conclusions, and I really think that we need to shift bullpen responsibilities away from Torre. The bullpen has been one of his historical weaknesses.

Why not replace Guidry with someone a) more experienced and b) with more experience regarding relievers in general? If such a person exists, the calls to the pen could change from:

JT: Get Every-day Scotty up.
RG: Okay.

To:

JT: Get someone up in the pen.
Pitching Coach: Ok.

Then, that coach would decide on his own initiative which pitcher is most rested, best for the situation and looks best in the bullpen.

I think it would be to the advantages of a lot of teams to do something like this. It's very rare that a manager has real experience with pitchers, so it seems mildly strange to me that they have total authority over the staff.

Give Torre credit: he's not the worst pen manager in baseball. That singular honor definitely goes to Mike Hargrove.

Here's how I see it, coming, as you know, from the other side.

Torre has a long history of burning out his bullpen, a history that predates his days with the Yankees. That said, ironically, he hasn't had much in the way of options in 2007, what with the injuries, the elderly, and some bad signings by Cashman.

Start with the guys who got away: Okajima, Matsuzaka and Ortiz. Okajima wanted to come to NY, Cashman passes. Sox sign him for $1.25 M per, for three years. Yes, he was (and certainly, is still) an unknown quantity, but for that kind of chump change, he should have been given a look-see. Cashman underestimated the amount of money it would take to get negotiation rights to Matsuzaka and overestimated what it would take Boras to come to terms. The Sox wound up getting him at a bargain rate in this market. It's old news that Cashman ignored the Boss' entreaty to sign Ortiz, opting instead to stick with Nick Johnson.

Johnny Damon came at quite a price after the Sox passed on him, figuring that this hard-nosed player's body would finally break long before the contract had expired. Obviously Johnny's in rough shape now and has been since Spring Training. Will he bounce back? And for three more years?

It's almost two years since Bobby Abreu turned into a high OBP singles hitter. He's a fine leadoff guy (and a great fielder), his current slump notwithstanding, but nobody you want hitting in the three slot.

Wright, Pavano, and Farnsworth. Whether or not Pettitte is worth anything like the money he's getting remains to be seen.

Cashman is to be applauded for not dealing off his prospects, for rebuilding the farm system and for not getting involved in the ludicrous amounts of money doled out to the last two free agent crops, but with the bulk of the farm talent still in the lower minors and the last two free agent crops, again, quite thin, the aging Yankees were quite exposed.

Certainly it's still early in the season, Damon could get healthy, Abreu could regain his power stroke, Mussina may regain enough velocity (which he didn't show in Florida) to make his offspeed effective, Hughes may be more ready than he showed last week and give the Yankees some valuable innings, they may sign Clemens, Igawa may gain some consistency. The bullpen? I don't see how this isn't a long term problem, given the overwork, even assuming Rivera returns to form. Certainly, it's way too early to write the Yanks off.

They were in similar straights two years ago and were saved by the emergence of both Cano and Wang from the farm. The pitfalls are that there don't appear to be players on the farm of that caliber and the Sox are a considerably stronger team than they were 24 months ago.

61 I agree with much of what you say, the only real caveat I would add is two years ago, nobody thought Cano and Wang were of the caliber they were. Wang was basically a guess, and Cano was thought to be a so-so hitter and an awful defender. Neither were even close to can't miss prospects. There could be someone lurking down at AAA or even AA, but my guess is we won't be finding out.

61 A few points:

The "guys who got away" section doesn't really make sense. Ortiz didn't "get away," we didn't have any room for him at the time with Giambi and Johnson. That stuff happens and really has not hurt the Yankees offensively. Yeah, Ortiz has hit the Yanks well, but so has Manny, I guess he "got away" too. And as for Okajima, well, give that one some time. We'll see in another few months if a crafty lefty that no one has seen is still quite so dominant, if even league average.

Damon we all knew about coming in, and I would like to cahlk up his streak right now to his body. Maybe he won't bounce back. But he'll still be better than Crisp :)

Bobby A as a high OBP singles hitter is jsut fine for this year, if he can get bcak to that. Right now, hes a low OBP strike out machine, and thats not like him.

As for the talent being in the low minors, you are dead wrong there. The Yanks AAA rotation could beat the Nationals right now.

Yeah, the Yanks have a lot of maybes, but then again, so do the Sox. So do the Muts. So do everyone. For all of the Yanks question marks, which are made more pronounced because they are losing, granted, the Sox have one too which for the first 25 games are working out. Beckett, the BP, everyone save Ortiz and Manny, Schilling, Boner, and Lester as the season wears on.

Me, I so see it as a long term problem, but a long term problem Cashman saw developing a year and a half ago and started trying to prepare for...

61 I can't fault Cashman for being outbid on Matsuzaka. Nobody thought the Red Sox would bid over $50M just to talk to the guy. All the pre-bid speculation was that the posting would go for $30M and his bid was right in line with that. Boston just blew everyone out of the water.

I still think he handled the offseason well, and it wasn't that long ago we were all gushing over the Yankees' pitching depth. The return of Wang and Moose, the emergence of Hughes, Ohlendorf and Clippard waiting in the wings -- I'm not ready to write off the season just yet.

And the bullpen was lights out until it got burned out. Stretch out a starter for 8, use Mo for the 9th, rinse and repeat, and the pen should be back in shape.

63 There's great pitching talent at AAA, but position players are pretty far off.

I'm really not concerned. I mean, in the end, the worst that happens is that the Yanks miss the playoffs and the coaching staff gets shaken up. They'll work it out, its just whether or not they do it in time...

The minors are loaded, and I really see us trading a few for say, Zambrano or the like. We have too many pitchers down there anyway.

65 Yeah, but the position players is where we have the most room for error right now. Other than BUC that is. They'll need a right fielder next year and a 1B (should be easy to find), but otherwise, the Yanks have the time to develop position players, or trade for them. Its the pitchers that are at the high level and need to be

61 64 I don't get the whole Dice-K worship thing...

So far, 4.36 ERA, 1.21 WHIP overall. Against the Yanks in two starts (and we all know that's how every big FA gets defined in these two cities), 6.92 ERA. He looks and smells like a 3 or a 4 to me. Yeah, he is 2-0 but you can hardly say he has been responsible for the wins.

I think the jury's still out on him and that $51 million negotiation fee. His stuff looks good but he hasn't exactly been dominant against anyone except that first start against KC. What happens when the AL East sees him for the third or fourth time?

Steinbrenner speaks:

"The season is still very young, but up to now the results are clearly not acceptable to me or to Yankee fans. However, Brian Cashman our general manager, Joe Torre our manager and our players all believe that they will turn this around quickly. I believe in them. I am here to support them in any way to help them accomplish this turnaround. It is time to put excuses and talk away. It is time to see if people are ready to step up and accept their responsibilities. It is time for all of them to show me and the fans what they are made of. Let's get going. Let's go out and win and bring a world championship back to New York. That's what I want."

The Yanks will get Santana and Texiera in the off season and all will be ok.

50 I swear, I'm not laughing at your plight! It's amazing to see the dregs of humanity that sometimes end up in the primo seats...and sometimes their just the dumbest. It gives me a chance to share my funny story.
I was lucky enough to snag 2 box seats about 12 rows back and slightly to the right of the Yanks dugout last year. Took my brother with me, was able to walk down to the front row where I snapped some awesome pictures of Villone, Farnsy, Bernie (oh, I got an AMAZING shot of him if anyone wants to see). Anyway - I'm standing there and Jeter & A-Rod walk on by after their warm up catch and there are these 3 early twenty-something...uh, girls...dressed in their early-twenties club-hopping 'ensembles'. There they are, giggling, shreiking and batting the eyelashes, trying to get the attention of our resident Yankee captain/stud-muffin, and I swear to God, one of them actually took a deep sigh and muttered the following:
"God, I can't believe he didn't notice ME!"
(as if Jeter were going to turn around as say "MY GOD! At long last, I've found you, the love of my life!")

People make me laugh sometimes!

69 That is an incredibly fair, accurate and sensible statement. The world has really changed when the Boss is the voice of reason.

66 That's not the worst case, in my opinion. What would be dreadful to me is the Yankees fall out of the race early and have an ugly season. While missing the playoffs is a huge dissapointment, not even having an interesting season to follow would be sad.

...by the way (and speaking of dumb). My 2nd sentence should've stated "and sometimes THEY'RE just the dumbest"...not THEIR!
Good grief!

71 I think it would have been funnier had Jeter turned around and actually said that. At least then the girls would have fainted or run shrieking and you could have enjoyed the game.

72 See, if the Yanks fall out of the race, I imagine we will see a lot of changes that WILL make it interesting. As in, bye bye Pavano, Farns, Minky, Cairo, and hello kids from the minors, especially in the BP and rotation, which, in the end, probably won't cost us too many wins but will make us far more fun :)

See, there is a silver lining to everything!

75 Do we really need to fall out of the race to bid good riddance to Pavano, Farns, Minky and Cairo? There has to be a better way! Please!

75 And maybe we'll be able to put our feet up at the Stadium again.

Yeah, it would suck if the Yankees fell out early, but I'm already starting to adjust my thinking that way. I've been there many times before, and I know it'll happen again.

Zack, while the midsummer purge may be fun, I'm afraid it will be followed by an offseason spending spree - throwing lots of money at whoever's available.

70 Teixeira isn't a free agent until after 2008. this is only his fifth ML season.

77 I've been there too...and as much I preferred the elbow room and lack of drunks at the Stadium during the 1980s/early-1990s, nothing beats the level of excitement that the Yankees have given their fans over the past 11 seasons.

I am kind of starting to adjust my thinking too. My behavior has pretty much followed the predictable pattern: denial…anger and blame…depression (I think I'm there now) …and finally acceptance. Maybe I need a better perspective…either that or it might be the right time to start drinking.

63 Zack, If the Yanks AAA rotation is so strong can you explain why they went to AA for Wright and then to AAA for Hughes months before really wanted to?

I thought it might take two years into the Crisp/Damon four year deals before Crisp surpassed Damon as a player. It looks like we can date it to April 20, 2007.

I 'spose you'll still be considering Beckett a question mark well into 2009.

79 If you meant 'healthier' player, you're right. 'Better'? If all things are equal, I don't think so.

And IIRC, Beckett started out like gangbusters his first year with the Red Sox as well. Come find me in September.

80 Crisp will never be the player Damon was. Unlike Cashman, Theo recognized that you can leave in all on the field the way Damon does for just so long. "If all things are equal" as you say, no way is Crisp the player Damon is. I highly doubt all things will ever be equal again.

As for Beckett, he is not the same pitcher this year he was last. Last year, it was all fastballs. This time around he's mixing it up. His ERA is 2 runs per game lower than it was last year after 5 starts.

63 Zack, I agree that Abreu as a high OBP singles hitter is just fine this year. I would also add that he should be leading off with A-Rod hitting third and Giambi or Posada fourth. (Don't you want a guaranteed first inning lick from A-Rod every day?)

79
They grabbed Wright outta AA because he's on the 40-man roster and was slotted to pitch on the right day; the two AAA guys who were lined up to possibly take that start were NOT on the 40-man.

Also- that's a pretty specific date to announce the dual coronation/fall from grace of Coco/Damon. Nothing like making a snap judgement based on 20 games rather than, ya know, actual sample size.

79 Because the problem was with the ML rotation.

Hughes came up from that strong AAA rotation. Wright wasn't called up because he was better, but because he was already on the 40-man. (And that had to do with length of service, not perceived quality.)

I think Beckett will end up being better than last year, not as good as this April. But no, one month doesn't prove much.

And I'd still rather have Damon than Crisp. Damon has to find a way to stay healthy; Crisp has to find a way to not suck.

82 Not a coronation of Crisp, but the point when it became clear just how damaged Damon's body is.

83 No one is as good as Beckett's been this April and I certainly don't expect him to be this good the rest of the way. What I do expect is an ERA under 3.50.

Damon find a way to stay healthy? How do you tell a guy like Damon to stop diving for balls, not throw himself into bases, etc? That's his game and it ain't changing now. His back is a mess 20 games into the season. Back problems don't go away quickly and certainly not when you're playing ball every day.

As for Crisp sucking, he was a fine player before he broke his finger. Getting off to a slow start this year didn't help, but he has hit .375 over the last two weeks, admittedly mostly feeding on Yankee pitching.

78 Seriously, though, I don't think that's going to happen this year. I think it's pretty much a given that the lineup will hit better than it has the last few days, and a rotation of Wang/Mussina/Pettttitttte/Hughes should start to give the bullpen a little more rest.

There are still problems. Fifth spot in the rotation, unless Quest shows a little more. Even with more rest, we'll have to see if anyone's left standing in the bullpen. But this isn't a last-place team unless the rotation falls apart again.

84So...in other words, Crisp has had two good weeks with the Red Sox.

84 And while we're at it...you're _expecting Beckett to come in under 3.50? That would have been 4th in the AL last year - I'm glad you're not setting your sights too high.

How can we presume Damon is breaking down after just a single month? Just because he's not hitting so far, didn't hit last September, he's always got some minor injury, and he's 33?

If Damon is still hitting .229/.349/.329 on July 1, then maybe its evidence he's broken down. For now, its just a bad month. Everyone has bad months.

Presented without further comment:

Johnny Damon's avg/obp/slg for

May 2006 - .257/.302/.367
August 2005 - .252/.333/.320
April 2004 - .263/.364/.329
May 2003 - .248/.311/.385
September 2003 - .256/.326/.329

79 I am with debris re: pitching prospects. I don't doubt the basic premise of 63, but the Yankees do not have Humberto Sanchez this year, and we do not know when they might have him. And it was utterly ludicrous to bring up Chase Wright when supposedly vaunted prospects are waiting in the AAA.

The 40-man roster argument is lame. Sanchez is done for the year, they could have easily moved him to 60-day DL and moved someone in the AAA to the 40-man roster.

I think this is what happened. They found out that they need a minor league guy to pitch in the majors much earlier than what they anticipated. Hughes was on this grand plan, and as such was supposed to be babied to the extreme. Ohlendorf, Jackson and Clippard were still trying to adjust to a higher level and their performances were erratic. Plus, they have some value, either as future reinforcements or trade baits, and bombing in the Bronx might do harm to the latter. Matt DeSalvo is someone who might acquire Colter Bean status in time with the Yankees.

So they went for the guy who was hot at the time, and was expendable as a prospect from the organizational point of view. In other words, a sacrificial lamb. Enter Chase Wright.

84 86 Yep - two good weeks...that's about the same as um...Carl Pavano?

And even when you factor in that two-week anomaly, his numbers for 2007? .235/.274/.338/.612

Ooooo baby! Let me get my All Star Ballot out right now... ^_^

90

You can win without an allstar at every position. You can't win when players you depend on are falling apart. Coco Crisp looks to be coming around. Never did damon look so old than when watching Coco flying around the bases on his triple.

Damon's stats, even if healthy are going to slowly fall now, and you've got him for how many more years? And even at this point if damon regains his health and is obviously the better player, well, he should be for 10 million more.

It's looking more and more like an awful deal for ny, no matter how you spin it.

91 Coco got a triple because he hit it somewhere that allowed him to do so - if Damon put a ball in the same gap, I'm pretty sure you'd see him standing on 3B as well.

90

in Crisp's defense, he was having a fine developing career until he came to Boston.

Ah, the familiar chirping of Red Sox fans in April. The early birds sure are enjoying their worms.

Don't be distracted by the chirping Boston birds, my fellow Yankee fans.

There's potentially huge Yankee news on this off-day.

Read the Steinbrenner statement again. Read what he didn't say: The gun is pointed at Joe Torre's head. The boss is telling Joe "Win now, or die trying."

Yes, the owner says he "believes" in Joe, but at the same time he believes "people" (read "people named Joe Torre") have been making excuses, talking when they should be winning, not stepping up, and not accepting their responsibilities.

So in George's eyes, these "people" (people named Joe Torre) are not just losers, they're also slackers.

Them's firing words.

Swindal isn't around anymore to talk George out of anything.

Cashman has nothing to show for his gigantic payroll at this moment, so his word isn't worth a dime to his boss who wants nothing but "w's."

Jeter's comments in support of Joe bought Torre a little more time.

Also keeping Joe's job on life support, the possibilty of recruiting Clemens.

But if Clemens was to announce today that he was going to Houston or Boston, and if the Yanks were to drop the upcoming series with Texas, Joe would probably be out of work by Friday.
That's how thin I suspect the ice is beneath Joe's cleats.

Win or die trying, Joe. The Boss has spoken.

91 Let me see if I've got this straight. Even if Damon is better than Crisp, it's an awful deal for NY because according to salary, he's supposed to be better? And that makes it an awful deal?

I tried to find a way that that made sense, but it made my brain hurt too much.

94 That was supposed to make us feel better?

88 And why isn't Damon hitting? We know why Abreu's not hitting. He's in a slump. We also know why Damon's not hitting. He's in excruciating pain. He can barely walk, let along swing a bat or play outfield. He's in Florida today visiting his doctor.

The single most pitiable thing I've seen on a baseball field this year was Julio Lugo rounding second yesterday and heading for third as Johnny Damon picked the ball up on the outfield grass some 50 feet beyond second base. The play wasn't close. From the same spot, Bobby Abreu would have thrown Lugo out by 40 feet.

94 Not trying to make Yanks fans feel better. I just think the Steinbrenner statement is worth dissecting and discussing.

I don't think Joe should be fired, but I'm afraid that's going to happen very soon if the team's fortunes don't change very quickly.

Sorry to interrupt the Damon v- Crisp debate.

94 I thought it sounded like George has the players in his sights as well. Perhaps we can look forward to some "Mr. May" and "Spit the bit" comments. That always makes for an enjoyable season.

94 Buster Olney today suggested that Torre's firing would do serious damage to the Yanks' chances of signing Clemens, given his respect for Joe and their friendship.

97 And the throwing aspect of his game has changed since he first broke into the league how?

Age has nothing to do with his arm, which has always been below average - Cashman knew this when he signed him.

Why are Boston fans proclaiming that Crisp (with his 2007 OPS of .612 - and he is hot) is somehow now better than Damon (with his OPS of .678 - and he is struggling)? Does anyone miss the irony in this.

97 Please don't forget to consider 2006 in your evaluation of Damon versus Coco. Regardless of what happens going forward, you can't simply ignore that each man contributed significantly to his teams fortunes last year.

Now, perhaps you are one of the fans who doesn't care about what happened in the past (a futile perspective because today is quickly going to become tomorrow), but I value EVERY inch of Yankee history. For sure, I'd liek Damon to remain a useful player going forward, but he already has a lot of money in the bank on my ledger.

98 I still stand by my opinion that maybe Gator needs to go. Bullpen management isn't a factor when your starters are ALWAYS being lifted after only 4-5 innings.

But why are those starters only lasting 4-5 innings? That's the real issue. All things considered, Torre has spread the wealth between everyone in that pen quite fairly...

104 Because their names weren't Wang, Mussina, Karstens, or Pavano (not that we expected that last one)? Seriously, we know why our starters haven't been lasting beyond 4 innings, because they either were rushed to MLB or because they simply had no business being there, or because they are coming off of injury.

105 Maybe we should bring back Jaret Wright as player/pitching coach. He'd have all the starters going 5 innings in no time.

105 I'm willing to reserve judgment, but I thought it was a mistake from the get-go. Let Gator coach in the minors for a while before you throw him right into arguably the most important coaching position in major league baseball with almost ZERO experience.

I love Donnie too, but there's no chance in hell I want him as our manager. The Yankees aren't the place for managerial training wheels, sorry.

104 I was never impressed with the idea of Guidry as pitching coach. He's one of my absolute favorite Yankees ever - hence my screen name - but he's never struck me as much of a thinker, or much of a communicator. (Have you ever heard him speak? I did, once, and I've tried my best to avoid it ever since.)

When Guidry was first hired, I heard Torre on the radio talking about what a great choice it was. He said that Guidry still had things to learn about teaching mechanics and such - but he had a bellyful of guts and knew how to win.

That's pretty much a direct quote.

106 Well he's hurt again, he does have some free time.

101 As bad as Damon's arm historically, I dare say that even as recently as last year he could have thrown a ball 150 feet faster than Julio Lugo could run 80. Yesterday, he couldn't.

103 Of course not. My sense, at the outset of 2006, was that they'd be similar players in 2006 and Crisp a better player from then on out. Damon was a better player than I thought he'd be last year, Crisp missed the season due to injury. My sense at this point is that Damon is permanently damaged goods and that Crisp will be fine from here on out. He has come on in the last two weeks and while his numbers are still rather dismal, I don't expect him to wind up with a .612 OPS any more than I expect Abreu to wind up with a .668, Cano a .657, or A-rod a 1.297. Damon, however, might not be able to improve on his .678 in his current state.

107 as a fan, I don't think that I had enough information to say whether or not Gator was a good choice. He had been working in the spring training with pitchers, so I suspected that the decision was based in part on that experience, an interview, and other considerations (such as his history with Yankees). I figured I'd judge him by performances.

Based on performances in his first full year with theYankees, I was pretty pleased. I thought that he did a good job (or at least the group of pitching coaches) getting his pitchers to perform to the best of their ability, and working pitchers through mechanical changes - so far as I could tell. Still a very limited body of work.

110 so, in your mind, two weeks of baseball by Crisp is a more reliable record than 1+ year of Damon? That makes zero sense.

I don't know so many people feel that the Yankees need to compete this season instead of rebuilding what is obviously an aging and injured team. Why not start trading away players who have some value now. With the exception of Jeter, Matsui, Cano and possibly Mariano........who wouldn't you trade? A-rod can walk away after the season so unless Cash plans on getting a new contract signed now he should go. Posada is getting old for a catcher and should have been converted to first base (thus no ManK-vich and his 139 BA and no Phelps.) You probably still can't get rid of Giambi because of his contract but most of the Bullpen is Bulls--t. You really want to see Proctor or Farnsworth in a really Big game? Damon is going to be injured all year and was too old when we signed him anyway. Get as many young arms as you can and you can rebuild from the resurgent farm system we all hear about. I know it's early but I'm throwing in the towel. I was there on Friday night from the first pitch until the last pitch and I'm telling you this is not a winning team regardless of the alleged starting pitching problems. Plus I'm pissed to see Damon hugging and kissing Ortiz and Manny before the game.........that didn't happen when Paul O'Niell and Tino was on the team.

Have you noticed that Igawa pitches with his sunglasses on, no matter what the weather is like. It is for this reason that I suggest we Yankee fans start calling him "shades". Shades Igawa sounds 10 times cooler than Kei.

Plus we started calling him shades on Saturday and he was money.

Go Yanks

110 Crisp didn't miss the season with an injury...he had an OPS+ of 80 (which is Tony Womack bad) in 105 games.

I've seen most of Crisp's lats 10 games and nothing leads me to believe he has turned a corner. Off the top of my head, he has two bunt hits and two triples that shouldn't have been (one because the Yankees weren't gaurding the line and the other because, as you have argued, Damon has a weak arm). In other words, I wouldn't get too excited about a two week stretch of a .913 OPS when there are more than a few mitigating factors.

114

If Igawa doesn't pan out, can we trade "Shades" for THIS guy

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7336

I love the damon/coco debate as much as the next guy, but I thought I would share a little video someone over at lohud's comments posted. Cheered me up. How could you fire this guy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LNzW2bixCA&NR=1

71 I'd like to see your Bernie photo.

114 Are you kidding? "K" is a great name for a pitcher!

117 Wow, where did that come from? Not off TV, I assume! (And is that our old pal, Joe West? I remember Torre and West once got into such a heated argument that West was fined and suspended.)

117 That's great. I think Mr. Tea needs to yell like that at the team to put a spark in their a$$e$. Couldn't hurt at least.

117 That was hilarious! I wonder who took video of that?

116 Nice. If that guy could pitch, I bet he would "Never Surrender" a lead... ;-)

115 No, he didn't "miss" the season. He did come back and play with an incompletely healed broken wrist.

As for his two triples, true one should have been a double but Johnny "Damoned" it into a triple. And the other shouldn't have been because Mariano should have been able to throw hard enough that Crisp shouldn't have been able to pull him.

118 You can e-mail me at araucher@nyc.rr.com and i'll be happy to share some of the Bern-man w/you (& anyone else who'd like to see it)

119 Something like this:

Torre: You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Gator!
Gator: Lollygaggers!
Torre: Lollygaggers.

117 ah, brilliant. Just to hear Joe say the F-word is hilarious!

124

That reminded me of a cross between MPFC and "The Simpsons"

LOL!

117 Thanks, I needed that...

117 LOL! Great stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Then there's Bruce Willis taking in a Nets game and some suds (you have to stay with it until the end):

http://tinyurl.com/2r5bal

Didn't this happen last year? Sox fans rear their heads in April, and are nowhere to be found come September.

130 yeah, but you have to admit that Debris argument that Crisp is better than Damon because he is hitting worse than Damon is a unique argument.

It's true. Damon's playing like crap right now. I have a feeling it'll be ok come September.

117 Wow, Joe Torre with a ton of F-bombs flying around... sounds like one of our recent game threads. ;-)

Can you believe that statement? I'm skeptical Steinbrenner even wrote it. Age has stolen his mojo, Dr. Evil style.

134 I agree! Perhaps he was hit with a "laser beam"

132 what is true? We all know damon is slumping. But we also know he still has better numbers than Crisp. Which is the funny part,

122 debris, wasn't it a broken finger?

Wil Nieves dislocated his thumb earlier this season and returned the same game with absolutely no drop in performance. He went out and played just as terrible as he always plays.

137 As much as I was impressed by Nieves and his bellyful of guts, unless he goes into a negative batting average, its tough to drop from his current performance.

138 That was what I was going for.

136 I'd hardly call what's affecting Damon a slump. He didn't fly to Florida on an off day to see his chiropractor because of a "slump." What he's dealing with is called "injury." Actually, he's got a number of injuries, the most serious of which is affecting his back. As anyone who's had back problems (see: Brown, K. or Mattingly, D.) knows, they can take a long time to heal, assuming they're not chronic, in which case they don't. (see again: Mattingly, D.)

Johnny Demon is a gamer, no doubt. He still suffers regular headaches as a result of his little run-in with Damian Jackson in the outfield in Oakland a few years back. (If memory serves, he didn't even take a game off after that one. for corroboration see:sheet.org, retro.)

But there does come a time when the body just won't do what you want it to anymore. His OPS has dropped .240 points in the last 10 days because his body just can't do what he wants it to.

So call it injury, call it broken down, but don't call it a slump.

I see A-Gon is the NL Player of the Week. What a slugger!

Until it lasts way more than 10 days, I'm calling it a slump.

140 Whatever it's called, the point everyone is trying to make is that you can't conclude this is what Damon will perform like for the rest of his season or career. Wait at least a month or so before you start jumping to conclusions. Players break down; some break down quickly. But it's usually over a span of more than 2 weeks.

You're jumping the gun on his demise and making semantic points to prolong the debate. But hell, we've got a pile of dead horses laying around here; might as beat up another.

Maybe what the Boston fans are trying to tell us is that Damon is in the "twilight of his career" (see: Clemens, Roger circa 1996). BTW, the only guy with a longer "twilight" career than Clemens is Rod Serling (but only if you count syndication)...

52 Will... you present some excellent data, but I have many questions, mostly on the nature of stats themselves.

1st: The OPS+ is a good evaluator. I know it adjusts for league/era/ballpark. Does it adjust for Team and more specifically the player? A pitcher will have a much better OPS+ pitching to Crisp then he would Ortiz.

2nd: Sample Size. You can't make a statistical analysis without posting sample size. It has a lot do do with accuracy.

3rd: You talk about days rest, but not IPs or Pitches thrown in these appearences. This is probably a factor. If Viz throws under 10 pitches and then appears the next day, or day after... as opposed to pitching 25 pitches and then appearing...

4th: Most would agree that if you 'flip a coin' the odds of coming out 'heads(h)' OR 'tails(t)' is 50%. However, if you flip a coin 10 times, do you get 5h and 5t? Does 100 times come out 50h and 50t? If you get 4h and 6t, do you assume the odds of getting heads is 40%? or is it 50%

5th: Your OPS+, I assume, is an average of all his appearences for a given time. However, if over 5 appearence he goes 100, 100, 100, 100, 300, then OPS+ is 140... but what about the MEAN? Is that more telling then the AVERAGE?

While Stats are Mathimatically correct, most people don't have the skill to look at all the variants that need to be analyzed before coming to a conclusion. Even the finiest stats guys in the world disagree on the odds of my 'flip a coin 10 times' analogy.

Furthermore, there are 'human factor' considerations that effect a player's performance that can't be taken into account in these stats.

There are probably other considerations I haven't named. I believe you need a very large sample size in order to draw a 'correct' conclusion about 'days rest between appearences' analysis.

QUESTIONS FOR THE AUDIENCE: for Will's analysis
1) Should we looking at ERA+ or OPS+ or another stat, or a combinationof stats. How about RISP against? Some guys do pitch differently with men on base.

2) Is the Yankees FO doing this kind of analysis and giving it to/do education for Torre, Guidry, Kerrigan?

3) Is it Torre's responsibility to be able to use data like this as a resource, or should the FO, that has access to highly trained stats guys be doing this?

4) Because of factors NOT taken into account (personal health/attitude, weather, day/night, batting opponant, game situation, etc) AND a relatively small sample size, HOW VALID is this type of analysis in trying to predict how to use BP staff?

Please post your opinions.

61 Very, very harsh. Backseat driving to the max.

"Sox sign him for $1.25 M per, for three years"
Was there a posting fee? Iggy was the 2nd best guy in Japan, yet many thought it crazy to invest in an unknown. Now you kick Cashman for not signing an unknown 'unknown'? I think the Sox signed him ONLY to get more into the Japanese market and so Dice-K has someone to hang with.

"Cashman underestimated the amount of money it would take to get negotiation rights to Matsuzaka... The Sox wound up getting him at a bargain rate in this market."

There was talk in the press of the bidding going to $30m, and even some that said it could go AS HIGH AS $40m!!!!! Nobody saw the Sox going to $51m. Nobody! I laughed when I heard it. You are telling me if you were in Cashmans shoes, YOU would have posted more then $51m ?????????????????

Its still costing the Sox, with incentives, about $18m/yr. We don't know yet just how much of a bargain it is. The BEST Japanese players coming into MLB have a patern of 1-2 'good/great' years, and then they fall to earth. Nomo was an ACE for a while. Now he sells at the Dollar store.

".. ignored the Boss' entreaty to sign Ortiz, opting instead to stick with Nick Johnson."

Er... what about Giambi? We had Giambi and Nick, 2 great players. On top of this, we should sign a all hit, no field guy? Have you looked at Ortiz's Minn. Stats. We knew he was talented, but NOBODY knew he would become 'Big Pappi'. Now you think Cashman should be taking advice from 'The Boss'?

I agree, or most do?, that 4 years for JD was too much. Cashman was desparate not to play Bubba (or GOB), so he went for it. He had a great first year. How good/bad the JD signing is has yet to be told. But what he contributes while he is here is a little more important the the pure $$$ it costs. The Yankees can afford to overpay some IF, IF they get good results. Would you rather have Sori or Lee and their contracts?

Booby Abreu, the Singles Hitter, has posted an average OPS of .890 over the last 2 years. Lets hope our Singles Hitters of Jeter, Cano, Damon and Melky can do the same.
We have a 2 year contract with him.

Is Pettitte worth what we are paying him? Maybe not. Are you glad we have Andy on the team? Is he still a good pitcher? If we win, will Andy be part of the reason?

I mean, you have some valid points, but ALL GMs take their best shot. The BEST GMs have plenty of failures.

Completely unrelated,
Anyone know how the rotation for SWB sets up for this week? They're here in Toledo T-F, I'm going tomorrow and Friday (fine time for the NYY starters to go down and I miss seeing Hughes in person)

I think it's Ohlendorf tonight, then DeSalvo (tomorrow), Clippard, Fruto, and Rasner (Friday)

Is that correct?

Or are they all going to be up in the big league tomorrow?

114 Great name. Why the slump? You're killing my fantasy team.

Looking at Cano's splits, he seems to be very much a warm weather player- April and May are his two worst OPS months. We might not see the Cano of last year until June.

117 GREAT! Thanks! Guy has a belly full of guts.

Peavy goes tonight vs. the Nats. What's the over/under on his K total? I say 15.

I seem to recall a lot of criticism of Stottlemeyer's coaching on this site a few years ago. Maybe he deserves reconsideration.

Wow even CNN hates the Yanks. This is link on the CNN site, under top stories, immediately caught my eye.

"Yankees fan who trained terrorists turns informant"

http://tinyurl.com/yscj6a

What does being a Yankee fan have anything to do with him being a terrorist?

153 Wow.

Well, CNN is based in Atlanta. Maybe they're still holding a grudge for 1996.

Don't forget '99.

They changed the title to " American says he trained terrorists, cheered videos of 9/11." But they still bring it up:

"The slightly built Yankees fan from Queens described how he mingled with radicals from the fall of 2001, when he quit a job as a computer programmer and left New York for Lahore -- saying he was radicalized by the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan."

156 "The slightly built Yankees fan from Queens described how he mingled with radicals from the fall of 2001, when he quit a job as a computer programmer and left New York for Lahore -- saying he was radicalized by the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan."

Is that like the ultimate case of "Duuude, don't quit your day job!" or what? And if he's really from Queens, doesn't he know that mingling with radicals will ultimately destroy the Ozone Park?

(cricket, cricket...)

153 I think it just is meant to show that he was a normal dude, as all Yankees fans are normal dudes. Word.

Oh, and to whoever started the Damn vs. Crisp argument: Silly. Damon's better. Silly argument. I won't even touch that one anymore.

Loved seeing Torre go ape shit.

159 "I think it just is meant to show that he was a normal dude, as all Yankees fans are normal dudes." (Oops... sorry for blowing that statement out of the water for you, Nomad...) >;)

134 135 I wonder if it was from a shark? Thanks for the laugh, both of you!

147 rbj, I think Fabian McNally's Minor Yankee Blog over at RLYW.com keeps a running tab of who's starting when at AAA on the right hand side of the page.

157 Maybe it was a back-handed jab at the Mets! "See - this guy is from Queens and he's a Yankee fan!" Braves fans don't much like the Mets for ending their division title streak.

And no one else said it, so I will.

Shocking, isn't it, that the "fire Torre" stories come out on a scheduled off day following a Red Sox series and a long losing streak. Certainly this couldn't be an effort to sell papers - I mean, everyone I know buys a paper on a day like this to read about the second round of the NFL draft, and how the Rangers won.

As Steve at WasWatching points out: In fact, New York plays Texas and Seattle for their first 13 games in May."

Certainly, if we 'need' to turn it around soon, the schedule is cooperating. If we can't gain some ground over these next 2 weeks, it won't bode well for us. If disaster strikes and we play under .500 ball, heads could indeed roll.

From a Sox fan:

I'll say this about Damon vs. Crisp. I'm much happier with our current contract with Crisp than I would be with the Yankee's contract with Damon. It's not always about purely how good someone is. Age and cost also factor in.

Also, it's a relief to not have to watch Damon's weak ass throws any more.

163 now you get to watch Coco's strong throws of his batting helmet... ;-)

163 If you want to consider cost, fine. I think that should only be a factor if the cost of one player prevents the team from getting another. That's rarely the case with the Yankees, and shouldn't be with the Red Sox either. Money, they've got.

And in that case, I'd rather overpay for the better player than get the so-so player at a fair price.

161 Yep, I did think that for a good minute, but then I said, "Nah, I'm too cultured and PC for something like that." Fortunately for me, either no one got the joke or no one wants to admit it, which is likely the case. But props to you for pointing out the symptoms of Mets Rage for everyone to identify... My soul brotha' down South is not going to like this; I must cause more restlessness for my Atlanta bred-ren before the moon is full!

Outside of that, I did read John Harper's piece and thought he was either tired of living or was being a tad disingenuous with his moment of clarity concerning Mr. Torre. This isn't the worst situation the team has been in in recent years, it only feels like it because of all the residual changes on the roster and behind the scene. Oh, not to mention another stumble out the gate.

But let me ask you all this: is it easier or harder for Torre to be so calm now as opposed to two years ago? Compare the circumstances then and now, and tell me what you think.

164 (!) Dang, beat me to it >;)

164

and now sox fans don't have to feel the fans embarrassment reading Damon talk about his "sexy calves" and his other arrogant/ridiculous BS... ;)

140 Debris - I just want to clarify that you are confusing cause and effect. Damon is in a slump (effect) because he is injured (probable cause). What matters is that because it has only been about 10 days or so, it is just a slump, because that is too small a sample size to conclude otherwise. We don't even know for sure that his hitting is being significantly affected by the injury. We believe it likely, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a slump until proven otherwise.

You are drawing conclusions about the effect that the facts simply do not support at this time, which has been well demonstrated.

156 If you go the CNN homepage and look under top stories that title is still there.

167 Damon can have sexy calves, lambs, chicks, goslings, piglets, anything he wants. After all, there's Sex In The City, baby... >;)

Ol'McDonald bringing sexy baaack...

Here's how I know the world has gone crazy. I just saw Steve Phillips on Sportscenter and he said the Yankees need to solve their problems from within, their early struggles are due to injuries and Torre deserves more respect. Seriously, has he been replaced with an evil clone of himself? I was expecting him to say trade A-Rod for Jason Schmidt or something.

163

Did Crisp have Paul O'Neill's arm transplanetd during the night, because from where I sit, he's not much better.

As for the Yankees. If George really wants to help the club, he'd go head to head with the league and strictly limit who has access to the players. One of the things that make MLB so great is that although they operate in a collective as do the NFL and NBA, the clubs are able to operate with far more independence. Both GOD-ell and Stern run leagues that would make Stalin proud. Buy the wrong bagel in the morning-Ill fine you. Wear the wrong hat-Ill fine you. Speak your opinions openly-Ill fine your ass. Its ridiculous. Most notably because the league with the largest drug problem, the NBA, does almost nothing about it (not that I think they should), and the league with the largest steroid problem is more than cooperative when they are under the impression that testing will remain in-house, but when a congressional committee considers and threatens implimenting an OUTSIDE testing orginazation, the NFL flips its lid, refuses to cooperate sternly, and digs in its heals, because they know how widespread it is. I guess they would like to remain operating under the current system, where players recieve secret advance notice as to when they will be tested. For crying out loud, in true Kim Jung Il style, the NFL threatened to yank ESPN's contract with the league if they continued to air a fictional show about a fictional football league.

That rant is over. However, I am not sure how much contractural influence the league office has over how much access the clubs must grant, and to whom, but I'd like to see the Yankees make like Ronald Reagan (not a fan, just an example), and kick every low life sensationalist, muckraking, immature, contrary for the sake of being contrary, and undereducated "journalist" and "writer" the hell out of the locker room. Not a fix, but it would be a start.

165

You're nuts if you don't think the yankees and red sox look at their bottom line. If money didn't matter to the yankees they'd have a payroll of 400 million.

Right now it looks like damon will be a 13.5 million first baseman with very little power in 2 years. Just an awful signing, but probably one of the last since ny seems to (smartly) be turning to their farm system.

156

CNN is still operating? Seriously? Hmm. I thought Ted Turner strangled the news director to death with one of Jane Fonda's Clean Gene McCarthy for President '68 T-Shirts after he found Fonda having a threeway with him and the commercial stand-in for AOL's Aim Instant Messenger Icon, no? All the News Director said to stop the strangulation was "Ted, do you, umm, YAHOO?" "Go Braves."

173

I proposed it weeks ago, but why the hell dont they just play Giambi at first, Melky in center, and DH Damon for a while? At least we would have someone in the outfield capable of at least one outfield assist this season, and no, Bobby Abreu and Matsui are not above average, average, or even competent defensive outfielders, the occasional great play notwithstanding. The Yankee outfield should be titled "The Running Man."

173

I wouldn't have minded seeing Eric Byrnes or Mark Kotsay patrolling center for the Yankees.

153 I had a similarly taken aback by one of the headlines I saw for the Virginia Tech shootings--forget if it was on CNN.com or on Yahoo--it said something like "English Major Murders 32 People". As if this is the sort of thing English majors like me are likely to do.

177

And I thought English Majors were always good for good conversation, drinking partners, and a good person to see when you need to score some weed, no? Also great people to take to Vegas, as they raraly argue when you want to sleep in. That describes all the English majors I knew in college.

DAMN, when did this blog become Rant Central/Haven for BoSox Fans to Argue?

Yuck.

171 I thought the BBTN guys were going to come to blows tonight...

Speaking of blows, anyone see the shot Sheffield hit tonight? Great googaly-moogaly!

179

whats the emoticon for the world's smallest violin?

117 Good to see that Joe Torre was just as beautiful back then as well. Nothing like hearing him throw around a few horses**ts too, awesome...

Hey debris, its amazing to me that Damon hurt and according to you past his prime and cooked, is STILL better than a fully healthy Crisp.

Is there an emoticon for "Did all the Sox websites kick you all out?"

I'm not going to questions sox fans' right to post at a Yankee blog, but I am going to question why. There are plenty of res sox blogs out there. It goes to show their obsession with the Yankees.

Sheff doing his thang:

http://tinyurl.com/23dttw

It's too early to proclaim the Damon signing a bad one. If I remember right, the consensus here when he was signed was that he would be good for two years, then iffy from then on.

Look at the context as well: the only options then were a quickly fading Bernie and a never-quite-adequate Bubba Crosby. Everyone on the farm was years away. So a free-agent stopgap was the best solution.

Damon's here to buy some time for Gardner, Tabata, Austin Jackson et al. And in the light of the previous offseason, his contract seems quite reasonable both in terms of years and dollars.

Quite a sensible signing, IMHO.

I have a proposal. How about this lineup?

Cano
Abreu
Jeter
Rodriquez
Giambi
Matsui
Damon
Posada
Cabrera

I like it. Cano could use the lead-off spot to work on working counts, hitting his best pitch. It's not like this lineup really needs a prototypical one hitter. Damon isn't really a lead-off guy these days. Abreu does best the least amount of pressure you put on him. Jeter is at an age where he can fill in that three hole and adjust to the spot nicely.

Damon at DH until he heals, and Cabrera in Center.

181 Ric
Look, in the Billy Bean, bang for the Buck sense, the Damon trade may not have been a good one, as he is likely to have an average/bad year or 2.

In terms of getting an impact player, it was a good signing. In terms of filling our weakest position, it was a good signing. In terms of personel in the clubhouse, it was a good signing.

Let's say you buy a new hi-Def, big screen TV, that the REALLY wanted, but paid 40% more then it's market value. Then you go home, watch TV every day, and simply LOVE IT love it love it. Was it a bad purchase?

Such is JD. We (probably) paid too much for him, but (even thought he is an ex-Sox), we love him. He plugged a hole (in CF), lets Jetes go back to batting second, has good D, steals bases, sees a lot of pitches, and with Giambi, we now have 2 stooges.

Overpaying is NOT a good thing, but at the same time, our payroll NOW is less then 2 seasons ago, so we adjusted. How is the Sox payroll compared to 2 years ago?

I would rather have had Beltran. His contract may have been too expensive, but we should have gotten him. Maybe that's how the Yanks FO thought about JD.

JD for 4 years at $54m is certainly less risky then Dice-K for 6 years/$110+m. Only time will tell just how good/bad these aquisitions were.

Now both the Yanks and the Sox have a potentionally overpaid JD. Ours plays through injuries and is a 4 year commitment. Yours rides the bench when injured, and is a 5 year commitment. But why argue. Come back in 2010 and we'll discuss it.

Hey, look! Jerz's Gov. Corzine is out of the hospital, and vowing to get back to work ASAP, less than 3 weeks after he ate the dashboard of his SUV going 90 mph.

Corzine's accident occurred 3 days after Pavano last pitched.

Just sayin'...

184

i post at many different websites. some of the funnest are the yanks fan vs. sox fan formats becsue its a fun way to get conversation and debate. i dont have a lack of sox websites to go to and i havent gotten kicked out of any. ive seen people here comment at sox web sites and other web sites around the baseball blog circles... i really dont understand peoples incredulity that a sox fan would post here. it has nothing to do with obsession. it has to do with respect of the opinions for the other members of a blog and the fun of having your ideas challenged or whatever. ok?

188
i agree. i never argued that damon was a bad signing. the only thing i said was that crisps numbers in cleveland were better than they are are now!

188 He only plugged a hole that was, at least, three years in the making. The signing was an utterly uncreative solution to huge problem. Otherwise, they were going with Bubba Crosby (again). That of course was after Bernie showed his decline in 2003, the Kenny Lofton debacle of 2004, back to Bernie then Womack then Bubba in the ALDS of 2005, finally Damon in 2006.

Of course, Cashman overpaid for Damon. And of course for the same money of Damon, Pavano, and Wright he could have had Beltran.

See, where it's easy to see an old Yankee team, it was solely because the GM is mediocre in addressing problems.

192 And lest you think CF is an isolated situation. Realize the same thing is happening at:

1B:
2005 - Tino and Andy Phillips
2006 - Cairo, Andy Phillips, Craig Wilson
2007 - Mfhxdljk, Phelps, ?????

and Catcher is the next position after that awaiting a blackhole.