Quick thanks, Cliff, on the Court Deli photo recommendation - My Dad and I loved it - Pastrami, Dr. Browns - can't beat it.

When Karstens went down, we could only laugh in my section - Loge 26. As soon as Igawa was ready to throw his first pitch, one fellow yelled "Hit him in the face!". It was good to be back at the old ballpark.

Great tense game esp with the Sox fan cheering behind me the whole game. It made each of the DP's from Ortiz even sweeter as the fan was "calling" a HR for his girlfriend. Even better were the six K's from Kei and the Farns K of Manny with the Crisp meltdown as added entertainment. I had a great view of the Melky doink - just in side the line and kicked up a bit of chalk. Also, great view of Arod play in the ninth - really just a phenomenal pickup and throw in one easy motion. Mo made it interesting but he got a huge applause coming in, when he was announced, and on the final out.

Let the good times continue for today. Go Yanks!

seriously, Wang Hughes Pettitte Moose, omg we have a rotation!!

http://tinyurl.com/37egkg

Poor guy pitched in last night's blowout loss, too (and well). I'm going the Stadium today. My hat's off for him.

He has to rip his own arm out and hit a HR with it to make To Plays.

Keep up the positive Mojo!

http://tinyurl.com/2y9f3e

What a tragedy.

Crud.

Michael Kay seriously had an orgasm when Ortiz hit that ball...

11 It's early.

However, the Sox have a .374 BA against Wang. Manny, after that out, is 9 for 14.

I wish JD was allowed to rest. We can afford to swap a hurting Damon for a healthy Melky.

But A-Gon is en fuego so far this season. I watched a Reds game the other day, and A-Gon had two homers and a double.

Of course, the Reds ballpark is supposed to be a righty hitter's park.

23 Shit - I hope that doesn't mean he's tired already.

Remember Tim Marchman's column about "a good piece of hitting?"

Well, looks like Wang's rust is coming to play today and not last start...And if our offense doesn't decide to come out of its hangover, this is a long long sunday afternoon...

Maybe this is going to be like that Orioles game, where Wang had something like 9 assists.

Oh wait, yes you can.

He's an idiot.

Kidding, kidding, don't hurt me.

Of course, maybe Lugo's not the smartest baserunner . . .

Flash : a productive a bat blah blah

me: and he'll probably hit a 3 run shot.

Cashman is brill-ant!

Wait, racing is extremely boring, and this game is really exciting. Let me think about this...

But bobby and giambi should perhaps switch places for a bit?

So Ramirez did that. He just didn't bother with running hard to second, but he would have been out most likely anyway.

Once they fall behind us in August, then they start tearing their team apart.

Crud.

Well, now I have to do the trim and kill the weeds. Sure would hate to miss anything more, such as an A-Rod grand slam.

Lowell
109 Career RATE2 (9 runs above average)
79 RATE2 this year so far (8 errors)

Lugo
103 Career RATE2 (3 runs above average)
115 RATE2 this year so far

cora and dougie m. both...

see, and thats why hitting players stinks. free rides that can bit you in the ass...

ARod has 3 errors this year, all very questionable, inckuding yesterdays. They gave Lowell an error yesterday on a backhand shorthop (hit by Jeter). Official scorers are all over the place.

I think that wouldn't just be win-win, it would be win-win-win.

Still though, at least Wang's pretty efficent so far, so we might acutally finish this game without trottnig out the entire bullpen for once. amazing.

I hope 'ol Ralph Malph does well over there. He seemed like a really nice guy. And he certainly put his time in, with ten years in the minors.

Jeter
Matsui
ARod
Giambi
Posada
Abreu
Cano
Minky
Melky

damn though; he could'a at least pitched the 7th..

then again, with the way our pen is right now, it might not be wise to bring them in with runners on if wang had gotten in trouble.

we really needed to score last inning.

we best feast on two solid weeks of texas and seattle...

Do you think Torre has ever seen Proctor's stats vs Boston?

Alex Cora, power hitter. WTF

And omg, I hate Shrek.

Manny really kills him, though.

It is possible to disagree with Torre's moves without calling him incompetence?

If Torre is trying to win today, you leave Wang in.

210I'm sorry you are sensitive about that term, but I think it is 100% accurate. Lifting Wang is one thing, but even if he does have a Blister, bringing in Proctor is inexusable. I'm sorry...Torre's decisions have smacked of incompetence this year. Whether you and I are more competent is not the issue.

Rather then your opinion, why not poll as the other fans, and then post the results?

This game didn't have to get away...poor bullpen management is the underlying theme of every loss. Unless Gator is making the call on pitching changes (and running for Giambi, batting DM 2nd, etc), then Torre has to take the fall.

I've given a lot of support to my claim...can you refute it? If you can show me why bringing in Proctor made sense, I'm all ears. If you simply don't want to critize Joe, well, I'm sorry, but I put the team winning ahead of warm feelings I have for Joe.

And youknow things are bad when Tavarez holds us to 3 runs and 4 hits in a game we pretty much HAD to win and were set up to win.

I however, do not know if Guidry is a good coach. He's a popular guy, but doesn't seem to be into the 'science' of pitching. Kerrigan however, is supposed to be very good. I'm sure he has plenty of input, and that Guidry relies on him.

Do we fire Guidry and Kerrigan? Throw in Torre also? Maybe Cashman, so they can get a group rate to the Bahamas? I honestly don't know. I don't really have an opinion.

Oops... Crap! Is Henn a shitty pitcher now? Joe's fault for bringing him in?

But I do know it is human nature to scapegoat somebody. We love to see somebody swing on a rope to make us feel better.

"Joe has been pretty bad so far this year. He's done some very stupid things. I don't think you can fire him though. "

I'm asking why?? If you concede that he's been pretty bad, why CAN'T you fire him?

Also, just because Joe/Guidy put Wang on a pitch count doesn't mean it makes sense.

While our offense, in general, is not the problem, I can only wonder what our RISP in when we are behind. We are blowing many, many scoring opportunities.

Go Jetes!

Wait... I'll be fair. You can say it once every other game day (as opposed to 3 to 5 times every single thread? Deal? We ALL agree and you drop it?

Also, when someone makes a credible defense for why EVERY yankee reliever needs to work EVERY day, I'll listen up.

I don't THINK (opinion, not necessarily fact) the players blame Torre. I think they would blame themselves. I think the players are dedicated to Torre. I think his firing would greatly upset the majority of the players.

And it would also depend on who replaces him. Mattingly is not qualified. Girardi is good, but the players may not respond to his style.

It would also generate WEEKS and MONTHS of media speculation, interviews and gossip. It could be VERY distracting.

BLECH!

Well, maybe the Yanks will beat up on Texas and Seattle, and right the ship.

I dunno, this looks like the postseason last year. Everyone's over-anxious.

I will put 20% of the "Bad Boy" on Joe for uninspired BP management. I will put the other 80% on the players, who seem to all have skyrocketing ERAs.

To some extent, Joe should be able to call almost anyone out of the BP and get better results then he has.

276 Yikes...I think you're taking yourself a little too seriously. I am not sure what you define as knowledgable, but I know there are a lot of people posting with serious concerns about Torre. I don't care whether you participate in the debate or not, but please don't pretend you have a moral high ground because you are "positive". This is a game thread and all decisions are open to criticism...even the ones that Joe makes.

My opinion is not that the players shouldn't be responsible, but that the manager needs to help out when the players aren't firing on all cyclinders.

But of course, it's wrong to say you "can't" fire him. It's like saying, "you can't keep hammering the same point into the ground in a way that precludes all possibility of debate and denigrates anyone who disagrees," because of course you can.

I base this on about 3 years of participating regularly on this site.

I will ask that:

1) They post a 'Rules of Etiquette' at the top of the comments section... to include (amoungst other things) No name calling.. No vicious statements.. easy on the cursing.. No peronal attacks.. try to listen to and respond to what others say... Remember your opinion is just one man's opinion, not a fact, not the word of God, and carries no more weight than anyone else's opinion.

2) To post 'Dead Horse' pages, so for those that want to read/participate in Dead Horse issues, can... without 'clogging up the bases' here.
Some issues might be:
a) Joe Torre. Should he stay or should he go?
b) Cashman. Should he stay or should he go?
c) Is Proctor Sturtz II.. or valuable RP?
d) Are we headed for the post Season?

If any of you have similar concerns, I would encourage you to also write Alex/Cliff. I would hope that one of them will address these issues here on the blog.

Will we discuss movies?

And, personally, I found "Shhh...be positive," among other things, to be thoroughly condescending.

Doesn't it strike you at all odd when a number of different posters all have the same reaction?

Whether he makes his next start is up to the trainers.

You seem to have a problem with everything. Well, to be honest, I find your comments to be condescending as well. That doesn't mean I need to control what you post.

There are many different people who post here...some who agree with me and some who don't. I realize some people don't like hearing different opinions, but that's part of a forum.

You seem to have a problem with everything. Well, to be honest, I find your comments to be condescending as well. That doesn't mean I need to control what you post.

There are many different people who post here...some who agree with me and some who don't. I realize some people don't like hearing different opinions, but that's part of a forum.

— Oscar Wilde

298 yeah, it is going to have to be up to Cliff and Alex to declare topics dead horses (or some proxy) and we'll just have to accept it - whether we agree or not. There needs to be some limit on the degrading discourse that has been occuring.

It's the repetitive and degrading way it's discussed here that's off-putting. Not degrading to him, but degrading to other posters here. I'm not saying we all have to be Miss Manners here, but one thing I used to like about this place was the mature and respectful tone of the discussion.

http://tinyurl.com/2tcmqh

I still say Carl Pavano was the worst transaction in the history of the franchise.

Listen... I don't, and am NOT trying to, make the rules. My letter is general ideas. It is a 'call to arms' for Alex/Cliff to give some feedback and take some control.

As Kens says, when Blogs get big, they tend to get out of hand. It's up to Alex/Cliff to make the decisions. Maybe they will bring it to us here (on an off day?), for some feedback and a 'vote'.

Also, just because it's a Dead Horse issue, doesn't mean we execute anyone who says the words Torre, Cashman, Proctor, etc. It just means if you have a long diabtribe, or simply need to vent, that there is a page with many opinions specific to that topic.
It means that we don't have to hear certain rants 3 to 10 times a thread, for the NEXT 130+ games (not including the PS)>

Critiquing the actions of the Yankees manager isn't to be allowed? I doubt you'll find a baseball site anywhere that agrees with that idea.

As far as the "dead horse" issue: the horse will be dead only if/when Torre gets fired. Until then, the horse is very much alive.

"I hate him too it's just a shame he is going to be the all time best closer. Ever."

If you read through this thread, there are many, mnay cheerleading type posts. I won't point them out, but I don't see why some would rather read those posts instead of legitimate criticism. Of course, I don't feel the need to control what others want to post. There is room for all kinds of perspectives.

I can only assume everyone would like this blog to be full of people going "Well its STILL EARLY! When was the last time a game in April counted?" And "Look what the 2005 team did! Look what the 1978 team did! We will surely do exactly what they did! No reason to worry!"

When you stop assuming things and start reading what folks actually say you will understand better the points that we are making.

My idea is not to censor you, but simply to dedicate a space for conversations that:
1) truly have been beated to death from last year and the offseason and the beginning of this season.
2) have no direct bearing on todays game or current events (should we get Tex?... should we trade offense for pitching?)
3) Are subjects that have strong supporters on both sides, and the debate generally doesn't get anyone to change their stance, and simply becomes annoying due to the REPETATIVE nature of the discussion. (he stinks.. no he doesn't... yes he does... no he doesn't... yes he does... no he doesn't...)

Just because YOU think an issue is dead, doesn't mean everyone else does. That is what Matt is trying to say.

They're horseshit right now, yes. We all agree on that.

No team can expect to overcome significant long-term injuries to multiple starters. If Moose, Wang and Andy can make a total of 75-80 starts or so, the 4-5 spots will be sorted out, and we've got a shot.

And frankly, if we followed your idea of "kicking the Red Sox" this blog would be so much worse than you claim it is. 600 replies that state "Red Sux suxorz" and "were 11-54 but @ least were knot teh red sux lol" would be utter trash.

Can you see the difference between those 2 thoughts?

And for those who would like to restrict or contain debate, I wish you luck and fun on that very slippery slope. Since Torre and Cashman continue to impact the results on the field, I'm not going to play along. I'll be respectful in my dissent, but express it I will.

If you don't like it, ignore or debate me and others like me. Lord knows I've done the same when I felt necessary. That discussion to me defines the Banter, however much people would like to control what's said. You can choose to define it however you like within your own words. And I'll do the same.

Also, even if someone in anger throws out a "Torre sucks", what about all the posts saying "Go Cap'n Jetes" or "I hate Papelbitch". Read through the log and tell me which comments are more prevalent. I am not being sarcastic here...do you really think THAT is the kind of discourse we need to protect from the dead horse?

people annoy each other. this will not be changed merely by rules. people disagree. this is not usually changed by discussion.

the answer, to the extent that there is one, is to avoid calling each other morons, to avoid hyperbolic statements and generalizations, and to let the doom & gloom crowd and the bright side of life crowd balance each other out....

If Cliff and Alex legitimately agree that 320 is really the best use for this blog and we need 600 replies talking about how TEH SUX SUCK" and how we just need to ignore the glaring problems with the team because we won in 1978, then we'll see what a blog looks like as it falls apart

Here's my final take: Worry about what you think; don't try to control what others think.

As long as no one uses vulgarity (including Papelb$%^h, for example) and personally attacks another site member, I don't see why anyone should be concerned.

Can you see a difference in those 2 statements? Criticizing a specific move made in todays game is fine. Nobody has a problem with that.

It's just that for those of use reading these posts, a short comment on 'current events' is easier to digest then a long 'historical diatribe'.

No on here objects to criticism of current game moves. No one here objects to peoples negative thoughts or frustations. Everyone is here to voice opinions. But we need some rules, some limits on the discourse, for the sake of keeping everyone interested and participating.

Jim, Matt and Will... You guys really can't see this? You can't see that your posts are becoming out of place here? You are not concerned that you are discouraging others from participating?

You are all samrt guys. You must have other ideas to offer us.

Personally, I think YOU are the one trying to discourage others from participating. I am not the one who'd prefer a blog where certain topics are banished to the corner.

Can't YOU see from your tone that you can't accept that other posters actually think the topics you dislike are appropriate?

Is it not possible that warming up every damn day for constant 10-pitch appearances is the quickest way to burn a reliever? I'd look closely at those games if I had the time...

"Brian Cashman said that if anybody should be blamed, it's him. "This is my responsibility," he said. "I put this team together.""

He's taking responsibility and protecting Torre. I respect that.

The issue, IMO, is that as Simone points out, the bad tends to chase out the good. When posters start getting juvenile and insulting, a forum can spiral down quickly. I've seen it time and again.

"Just ignore it" only works for small forums. Once you reach a certain size, some form of moderation becomes necessary. If only the blog owner handing out warnings (and bannings, if necessary).

As for swearing...Cliff or Alex (I can't remember which one) asked that we keep the cussing to a minimum. Since their families, including kids, read the blog.

I will try to cut out my swearing though.

Will, Matt and Jim are relatively new.
I suggest you read some of the 2005 and 2006 archives. If you read them all, you will understand just how 'dead' some issues are, and why we want to move on.

You will also see a different tone to the overall feel of the blog those 2 years. You will see some people have been censured by Alex, Cliff, Ken or other posters, in an attempt to keep a certain level of discourse in the debate.

What you will also find that the opinions I express are just really to get back to the tone this blog has had in years past. I am not trying to have things 'my way', but rather what I have become accustomed to being the 'Bronx Banter way'.

The Cashman/Torre issues will never be solved here. They have a past, present and maybe future with the Yankees. We could discuss them endlessly.

It's like having a good discussion on politics, and then someone brings up abortion, and all of a sudden you have an ongoing, unsolvable, back and forth, unyielding argument.

Again, in reading my posts, I don't get the impression you are trying to understand my feelings (and also some others here) for where this blog is heading. You debate my 'sentences', but don't seem to digest what I'm trying to say.

But the bottom line is it will be up to Alex and Cliff. I am just one opinion here, a grain of sand on the beach.

Certain subjects get saturated. They have been discussed so much, there is nothing new to say. All the points you raise on Torre/Cashman have been said many, many times over.

The continuing discussion of the saturated 'dead horse' topics was bumming a lot of people out.

You guys read those last 2 years, as I have, and maybe you will get some persopective on how I, and many others here feel.

http://tinyurl.com/yt5u56

Start those conspiracy theories! Mattingly is intentionally tanking the team to get the job!

Um...sorry if that's irrelevant? (No sarcasm intended)

I love Donnie, as most fans do. Frankly, I'm not sure what qualifies him as a manager. Maybe it's simply that he wouldn't be a 'new guy', and things in the clubhouse won't be much different, aside from the fact that Torre is 'out of town'?

Quite frankly, I find it a little insulting that you (and seamus) keep takin the tone that I am not "trying to understand" your feelings, when the reality is I just happen to disagree with them. I have no problem with you voicing your opinion, but I do think it is condescending when you imply that you are speaking for everyone. Be that as it may, I am sorry you think I am "bumming everyone out". I haven't gotten that impression...if I did, there certainly wouldn't be a reason to continue participating.

Again, if the powers that be would prefer to censor the site in an effort to conform to a "Bronx Banter" way that's fine with me. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't take it upon yourself to define my tone and discourse in terms extending beyond how you feel personally.

Colter Bean was available. But he had attended high school and college with Josh Hancock, who was killed earlier in the day. Today was probably not the day to run him out there."

I can't say I was happy to see Proctor in there, but it's good to know there was a 'method to Torres madness'. The guy has to try and get the best from the personel he has. He has to manage people, as well as today's ballgame, as well as the rest of the season.

I have opinions on in-game management, but I don't give them much weight. There is so much I/we don't know or haven't thought about. Managing looks pretty easy from here, doesn't it?

362 I can't imagine someone of Mattingly's inexperience having a major influence on Torre.

The game results and a quick peek at the standings has gotten everyone sideways, and it's OK to blow off some steam, but let's do it 'Banter Style' — with mutual respect. I have no problem with anyone's take on who should or shouldn't be canned, traded or taken out and shot. Make your point, back it up, and better yet offer a solution. But again, don't get personal. It ruins it for everyone.

Me, I'm of the 'ignore the thread if I don't like it' mindset, and most usually dissipate
quickly enough. But randym 357 is correct, though, when forums go south, they go in a hurry. I'm thinking we'll resolve this without any drastic action required from above.

I'm sure Alex and Cliff have better things to do than babysit these threads, and we owe it to them to take a deep breath and hold our fire. There are plenty of other places online where you can roll in the mud with someone, let's not let that happen here.

And kudos to the schedulemaker for tomorrow's off day ;-)

Torre and Cashman were an issue then as they are now because they continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. Which makes it a relevant and current. If people based their complaints around letting Bernie Williams start in 2005, that would be a dead horse. Its over done with, has no bearing in 2007 and has been resolved.

But we are talking about moves that have dug the team into yet another big hole. Moves that can be traced directly back to Torre and Cashman.

Now you can dismiss all that with an "its early" and point to 2005, but I'm sure Braves fans were doing that last year up until the bitter end.

Nothing we talk about here is going to change anything one way or the other for this team. And I would hope no one here thinks that. We come here to discuss the team and vent and hypothetically find ways that the team can improve. Or what we would have done differently (not send relievers out every single day, not sign bad first baseman, not sign middling pitching)

When the Yankees get on another winning streak, the tone of the blog will be jovial and good natured again. I just hope the team doesn't kill itself through mismanagement first

And maybe the statement from Lohud above is a tiny, partial answer to that question.

I'm not closed to Mattingly though. Maybe Cashman would interview him and find out that Mattingly would be a supreme manager. If only I could be a fly on the wall...

I am going to let this drop because it is becoming borderline childish (on both sides). Rest assured, however, that I don't disagree with your desire for productive discourse; I just don't believe in trying to define it.

Agree - Girardi would be front runner, but Mattingly deserves consideration.

What are your opinions on when and if Joe Torre should be replaced.

In terms of Proctor, based on Lohud, it was 'an easy gig' and seemed to be a good place where Proctor would succeed, and also build his confidence a bit. In terms of trying to get your best from all your personel, do you think this move had validity?

I mean, he pitched poorly.
But so did Henn. Who expected that?
And Viz pitched well. Who expected that?

Again, I don't think I would have brought in EDSP there, but I'm not sure what I would have done. I can however, see Joe's logic (as he explained it anyway).

I believe on any given day, most of our BP guys can be very good. They have all proved they can also be very bad.

If Torre does go, I just hope he is replaced by someone already there. Maybe bring in Girardi as the bench coach again.

I think bringing in someone new 'from the outside' might not sit well with the players.

Torre has been 'Dad' to Jetes, Mo and Posada for 10 years. I wonder how they will be effected.

Again, I don't think Proctor needs confidence. I think he needs rest. To me, 15 games is way too much for this point in the year. Henn and Viz also have a scary number of innings. It is getting to the point where Joe really doesn't have many options...but that's a fire he started.

Do you think Joe has managed the pen well? Are you concerned by the number of appearances?

Again, agree.

Torn between -

Fire Torn - Has not been on top of his game, consequently "can't fire the whole team, has to be the coach"

Keep him - Starters are starting to come back and the road trip may help. Joe Torre is good at keeping a steady ship.

If management (Stein, Cashman) are staying with Joe, some type of "vote of confidence" might be appropriate to get "Fire Torre" off the front pages and out of the player's minds.

How can I say? I'm an AutoCad guy, not an MLB guy. I'd have to talk to Proctor and the other RPs and see what they say. I'd have to research there history and health. I'd have to talk with Guidry and Kerrigan and see what they thought. There are probably lots of others things I would need to know in order to make good decisions.

A manager makes the final decision. But a smart manager surrounds himself with good people and resources, and compiles all the info he can get from said resources, and hpefully makes the best decision he can based on all the info he has.

Many people in the media question Torre's BP usage, so I know he's not a star. But I also read complaints about many other managers use of pitchers. In general, we all know Torre gets high marrks for handling the media, players and keeping things on an even keel. Conversely, he gets average or below marks for handling pitchers.

Up until today, IPs are:
Henn: 15
EDSP: 14
Vizz: 14
Brun: 13.1
Myers: 10.2
Farns: 9.1

So 4 guys are equally worked. Bruney has been good and he's probably my guy for today.

I think also people need to realize there could be a couple down years. Cashman is still fixing the mistakes of '01-'05 and trying to incorporate more youth onto the team. He has really improved the farm, but it'll take time for those players to develop.

I'm on the fence whether or not Torre should be fired. Like others I am neither for it nor against it. His time may be up, but like I said the manager wouldn't have made a big difference. I do think it would be a big mistake to fire Cashman considering he is trying to build a team reminiscient of the late 90s. They should let him continue.

By no means though am I giving up on this year, not with this lineup.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5A0dmoEp_fw

By "eying," YES Network clearly means "gradually glancing in Return's direction with a telescope."

"It was free and easy," Torre said. "He popped some balls, felt pretty good freedom and he said it's feeling better.

In conversations with team doctors, Torre estimated Karstens will miss between six and eight weeks.

Ain't that the truth. You can go to most any baseball site on the web, and read the same complaints about the manager (and GM). No matter which team. The lineup, overuse of the bullpen, why is he so obsessed with veterans, why did they sign so-and-so, etc.

I really like Girardi, but he made some bonehead in-game moves in Florida. And his lack of people skills might prove to be a disaster in NY. I was hoping Girardi would get a manager job in Chicago or Washington, because IMO, he needs to have some rough edges sanded off before he takes over the Yankees.

"It's not fair. In no way is he responsible for us performing. He's not hitting for us and he's not pitching for us. He puts the best players out there on the field, gives us an opportunity to win. We're just not doing the job. That's unfair and it should stop." – Derek Jeter on the possibility of Joe Torre losing his job.

Jason Giambi: "Most of us came here to play for Joe Torre. … Joe can't control injuries or getting the starting pitcher to go more than five (innings). What does any manager have to do with that?"

FWIW...