4 I wouldn't mind giving Jerome Williams an invite to ST> He was destined for failure by coming up under Dusty and then the Cubbies traded for him. I know he had a lot of personal issues (I believe his father passed away) last year, but I've seen a lot of potential in his past. Could be worth a sit down.
2 With Ohlendorf, Sanchez, top prospect Philip Hughes, No. 2 prospect Tyler Clippard and last year's draftees Joba Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy and Dellin Betances, the only question left is why the Yankee farm system has been transformed so dramatically. This is not a team that is going to bring these guys up onesies-twosies and see if they are going to work out on the major league level. Say what you will, this is not a team that pisses away a season trying to find out what works (q.v. the 2005 rsawks pitching staff)
It used to be money was the main ingredient for signing a premier arm but now prospects are the key. Too many other organizations are capable of stepping forward and making a "statement" and the competition for guys like Zito tend to bring out the business side of the game. Witness the statement move by that nitwit real estate organization in Boston (god rest ye merry nitwits, let nothing you dismay, remember matsuzaka was signed the other day -- adapted from soxoholics without permission).
Real baseball execs look at these money + prospects deals. If the Twinkies come up with a couple of baby santanas in the group above, they get them for 5 or 6 years -- two santanas for one as it were. In the meantime one of the premier players in the game gets to strut his stuff on the true field of dreams, New York City, baby.
I think Cash is going all out to bring us a Ron Guidry type performer. This team is aching for that and will not survive the playoffs without one. Andy, Moose and Wang do not a series winner make. But you put Johan my Johan into that mix and flavor with a Rocket's red glare, you suddenly see George surrounded by Cash, Joe, and the son-in-law uncontrollably sobbing into the microphone -- a montage of such horror for sawks fans that one could only envision victory in Iraq and a draft W movement for a third term as anything worse.
George is getting old and they WILL win once before the old man does not go off gently into the night. Rage for Johan my Johan, George.
It also means Melky is gone and Bernie gets to drive in the winning run in game 5 -- of course we will have to survive an entire year of GOB negativity for that to happen but to those of us who write golden endings on behalf of the divinity, let me humbly say, go for it.
The article says the Yanks will likely use Humberto as a reliever.
Whaaat!?
The guy projects as the second best pitcher in the organization, behind Phil Huge, and they're going to convert him why? So Rasner, White, and Karstens can stay in the rotation?
Better, that means the Yanks acquired, in their minds, six RH relief pitchers this off-season. Brilliant!
At least Sheehan is making sense regarding the Unit deal, as SStN points out in the other thread.
8 It's a bit hard to get baby Santanas from RH minor league relief pitchers.
It's a good dream, though, I guess.
And I, for one, will be shocked if: a) Rocket comes back to the Yanks 8; and (b) if the GM makes any other moves before Spring, outside of minor league contracts 2. The GM's modus operandi is to get things done early then sit until June.
11 hell... i'd rather keep the 2 baby santanas than pass 'em off to the twins.
the twins wouldn't deal santana to the yankees unless they got hughes, and that ain't gonna happen.
8 Nice post. I do have one question about this quote:
"a montage of such horror for sawks fans that one could only envision victory in Iraq and a draft W movement for a third term as anything worse."
Are you saying that "sawks fans" would think a victory in Iraq would be worse than the Yankees winning the Serious?
9 It doesn't say he's going to be a reliever at AAA, just if he gets called up. They did that with Liriano too. They could also be babying him a bit with the recent surgery.
13 Well that's the beauty of it, you see. If you take your pick and get two baby santanas, you've made your mark as a GM -- you know your talent. There maybe no baby santanas in that group.
You know the "closer" of the sawks was supposed to be some kid whose name we can't remember and who is working out at Boston College now, hoping to make a mark in spring training. Who knew what Popplearm was supposed to be until he actually did it. How many innings does he throw this year before he gets shut down?
The point is that the twinkies need to move santana in 2007 to get a boatload of pitching prospects from somebody. We have a boatload of prospects + melky. And the GM egos are there for something big to go down.
Cash is in a win-win. He can afford to sit back and wait and still come up smelling like roses (maybe)
Or he can make the santana move and come up smelling like roses (maybe).
Clemens->Giambi->Johnson->Santana. Cash has a history of making big name moves.
11 As a former frustrated Santana fantasy owner I can assure you he was brought up as a middle relief guy as well. Slow and steady should be the Yankees pitching mantra when it comes to prospects.
17 Indeed, I was about to make the same point. Liriano started last season in the bullpen as well. I think it's a very good way for young pitchers to take their inevitable lumps as major leaguers from a low pressure relief situation. But there does seem to be a logjam of righties in the big league pen. So I also take the Sanchez in the bullpen news as further evidence that Cashman has not made his last deal of the offseason.
14 I tend to lump sawks fans with moral relativists and liberals ("You just gotta believe.", "Together we can make it happen."), just to bring out the real flaming indignation I feed on. The key to the lob was victory in Iraq, vindication for W and talk of a third term. That would be worse than the Yanks taking the serious.
I think you would have to go back to Claire Booth Luce and hatred of FDR to capture the present mood of liberal dems and W. So the answer to your question, given a trade off of Yanks in '07 vs W returns in '08, yes,these nitwits would don the NYY logo in a heartbeat.
That said, remember that I always reserve the right to wildly exaggerate on any topic. There are some who feel these diversions are an offense to humanity and "the game". I apologize for my senseless injection of cultural politics into what otherwise is a brilliant conspiracy theory on why Johan My Johan will be atop the mound in the bronx this year.
22 You know what, I'm going to make a statement here that I'm sure a lot of the posters will agree with. Our discussion the other day about health care was fine because it stuck to the issue and was thoughtful on both sides. But my urge to rip your post to shreds only points to something different about how off topic it is. Issues of the world may be fine for offseason topics on this site, but partisan politics should have no place on it. I know you're only responding to Bama's comment, but please refrain from partisan politics in the future. Do others agree?
8 I agree with a lot of what you say. A lot of people seem to want to keep every young player that has any promise, but I don't think that's necessarily the best way.
There are two legitimate uses for a farm system: to supply new players directly, or to supply trading chips. And for that second purpose, you have to trade some of your top-rated prospects.
Of the Top Ten prospects list each year, I can guarantee at least one thing: some of them are overrated. The trick is to scout your own players well and identify them. You'll make some mistakes...but you'll make some mistakes by keeping everyone, too.
Not that long ago, a lot of writers felt it was foolhardy to trade away a 24-year-old lefty like Brandon Claussen.
22 Great answer. No need to apologize, I just wanted to make sure I understood your first post. I think you hit the nail on the head. Again, nice post and I hope your theories are correct.
Johan in 07, now that is a bandwagon that even Jim Dean (if that is your real name) could jump on (sorry Jim ;-).
23 I tend to agree with you, but I don't know if it is our place to suggest "rules of posting" on other posters. That's Cliff and Alex's purview. If they want to mandate that we keep it to baseball they will do that.
I think it's our job to be responsible and keep things civil in here. When I read anything about politics around here, I just ignore it, no matter how strong the urge to go off on some tirade.
1517 Sorry, but that makes even less sense, esp since the Yanks have a full bullpen with a HOF at the end. The Twins had neither - the comp is apples and hammers. Further, they didn't know what they had in Santana. They know what they have in Sanchez.
1/6/06: Signed Cairo
2/11/06: Claims Rasner off waivers
2/16/06: Signed Scott Erickson
4/6/06: Claims Koyie Hill off waivers
4/15/06: Signed Colome and Pena
5/19/06: Signed Terrence Long
5/21/06: Signed Durazo
This shows what?
That Cashman will sign has-beens between now and June. And none are up-grades in any sense of the word. Rasner is the exception, not the rule, and even then it's because Bowden is a worse GM than CASH-man. Before and after Rasner? That shows you all you need to know about the GM's m.o.
In the second half of the year maybe a Guiel or a Bruney will come along. But not now because other teams want to see what they've got.
The Unit trade was the last chance to upgrade for 2007. And they failed miserably.
I read somewhere that Yankees have pegged Sanchez as the closer at Scranton. So this isn't an Earl Weaver relief stint. This is re-making Sanchez as the heir to Mariano. Perhaps they see his injury history as pointing to a bullpen career.
As for the "Guidry in waiting," you don't know who it's going to be, so there is safety in numbers. Of all the Yankees' pitching prospects, Phil Hughes is the only one who projects as an ace, but he could still flop and someone else might emerge. Thirty years ago, Guidry was Alex Graman (short, ineffective major-league stints in '75 and '76). Thirty-one years ago, Tippy Martinez and Scotty MacGregor were Brian Bruney and Sean Henn, and we were drooling over Dave Pagan's fastball.
And, to add a little punctuation to my post in 28 I find Jim Dean's constant attempts to paint Cashman as a big fat loser, more annoying than the political stuff. But I would never ask him to stop doing it.
I will say that when Cashman says things like "pitchability" i want to light myself on fire.
32 Except you're wrong Steeeeeeeeeve. My "constant" attempts are never that - he gets credit when credit is due (Abreu, Moose and Pettite contracts, Shef and Wright trades.). Otherwise, he's fair game esp since everyone else seems to love the guy for no apparent reason other than cutting payroll. Judge the moves, not the man. And the moves over the last month have been awful, combined with the myopia of Nieves/Chavez as Jorge's backup with nothing else in the oganization.
31 You mean how Cox was drafted to be the next Mariano? Trying to replace Mo is like the American Ace searchings of Weaver to Vazquez to Unit - a long and painful road fraught with folly.
Now that Shef trade is looking worse and worse. Two RH relief pitchers in return for a 40 HR 100 RBI guy. Brilliant!
Sorry for opening up a can of worms with my post 14. I really only wanted to understand what he meant by that line. He explained it and now I know.
I agree with you mehmattski that politics (and religion like yankz mentioned in 24) are probably places we should not go on a baseball site.
The best thing about this site for me is that we are like a big family. Even though I love my family, I generally do not discuss politics or religion with those who I know disagree with me as it mostly leads to heated arguments. That has always been my theory on this site. The only thing we all agree on (with the exception of the trolls) is our love for the Yankees.
Therefore, discussing others topics (while sometimes fun and entertaining) can certainly lead to problems. The civility displayed on this site usually helps us know when to stop and return to what we all love...
35 Dude, I can't judge the man. I don't know him. I do judge his moves. As a portfolio. The team is in a better position now, than it was the day the season ended.
The roster is more flexible, the organization has more liquid personell assets, than it has had in years.
I still wonder what the bench is going to look like, and the lack of a league average backup catcher is worrisome.
But on the whole, I support the work Cashman has done so far, and the direction he seems to be taking with the team.
Also, I enjoyed the way you misspelled my "screen name." That was exceedingly clever.
36 Except that RsBI are a pretty lame stat to use to judge anything. Next thing I know you'll be telling us that they shouldn't have traded Randy Johnson because he won 17 games.
I've got to speak out on this "the Yanks are acquiring pitching prospects to deal for Johan Santana" stuff.
What I don't understand is, why does everyone keep ignoring team payroll? In 2007, the Twins' payroll is probably going to be in the $65M range again. Let's presume it will be around $65-$70M in '08 and '09, and then can jump to $75-$80M (or higher) in 2010 when their new stadium opens. Don't forget, everyone is making a lot of money with the new TV deal, MLBAM, the XM deal, and revenue sharing.
In 2007, two Twins will make 8 figures: Santana ($12M) and Torii Hunter ($12M). The next highest paid Twin is Luis Castillo at $5.75M, then Joe Nathan at $5.25M, Carlos Silva at 4M, Rondell White at $2.5M, Jeff Cirillo at $1.5M, Dennys Reyes at $1M, and Mike Redmond at $1M. A couple of guys are arbitration-eligible, but most of the rest (10+ guys) will make $500K or less, having 3 years or less of MLB service time.
Of the $1M plus group, Santana ($13.5M), Nathan ($6M), Reyes ($1M), and Redmond ($1M) are the only guys under contract for '08. The Twins being the Twins, the other guys are likely gone, freeing up almost $20M (taking Santana and Nathan's raises into account).
My point is, even if Terry Ryan buys out Mauer and Morneau's arbitration years - which he probably will - and even if he has to pay Cuddyer $5M/year in '07 and '08, to pay Santana $20M (or more) a season isn't going to be hard. Especially with a likely increase in attendence (they did win the AL Central this past year, and have the MVP, Cy Young, and batting champ), the way revenues just keep growing MLB-wide, and with a new stadium on the horizon.
I think Ca$hmoney is stocking up on pitching prospects because he expects to have a 3/5 inexpensive, fantastic home-grown rotation by 2010, and to supplement those guys with some young hitters gained by trading pitching prospects. I believe things really have changed in Yankeeland.
29 Actually, according to this post over at Baseball Analysts, Joe Nathan was one of the most effective relievers last season. He's young, and the BWAA's reluctance to induct relievers notwithstanding... the Twins had perhaps the most "clogged" bullpen in the majors last season(along with Pat Neschek and Dennys Reyes and Jessie Crain).
Further, you've ignored most comments relating to the ability of Cashman to perform another trade with some of the many arms we have. It may not come before spring training, it may come closer to the trade deadline in July. The roster is fluid, it is not set. I suppose you would have opposed to making Rivera into a reliever in 1996.
(Flashback) Jim Dean: but mehmattski, he threw those 8 shutout innings against the White Sox last year! He's a bone fide starter! Bob Watson is an idiot!
38 And so we disagree - I think the moves have made the team worse from the end of last year, with more questions to boot.
The bench is worse, unbelievably. Cairo is a downgrade from Cairo and the eventual lump in the BUC slot is worse than Kelly Fasano. The 1B sinkhole is certainly worse than Shef. The only saving grace is Melky and the only upgrade is the failure to re-sign Bernie. We'll see if those hold.
The rotation, IMHO, is filled with more questions than answers. Sure, there's a spot for Hughes to win but only if Meat or Igawa both fail to produce. But the Yanks also have to give him the chance. Otherwise, Rasner and Karstens are cheaper but not necessarily better than Unit.
The bullpen is a bullpen. If Britton and Vizcaino help - great. But I'll believe it when I see it.
And all those prospects and flexibility mean squat if they never make the team or can't be trade for more established players. That's an unknown right now. But the players they acquired for Unit are upgrades in no area of their organization - that means they didn't need any of those guys.
The financial flexibility also means nothing for 2007 if they don't sign Clemens - which I don't think they will.
On the whole, Cashman gets a passing mark, but by no means is he at the head of the class. And for what he could have done, I'm more disappointed than anything else.
But should I just call you Steve or are you Rob Gee?
Speaking of the Unit trade, here's an interesting tidbit from Buster Olney's blog:
"There was some surprise that the Yankees didn't land pitching prospect Dustin Nippert in their Randy Johnson trade talks with the Arizona Diamondbacks. But the Yankees were guided in their conversations by Kendall Carter, the former national scouting coordinator for the D-Backs; the Yankees just hired Carter last fall as a crosschecker, and based on his inside knowledge of the Arizona system, he recommended that the Yankees pursue Ross Ohlendorf, the sinkerballer who became the centerpiece of the deal. Executives with rival teams say that Nippert's stock has actually fallen in recent months, and say that at a time when organizations are hoarding their best pitching prospects, they [Arizona] have made it known they are willing to swap Nippert in the right deal."
Translation - Arizona was trying to sell high on Nippert.
32 Thanks for getting us back to baseball Schteeve (what does your screen name mean anyway?). BTW, there you go again with the immolation. Did you not check out the site I suggested the other day about the bee killers? That is a better way to let off steam. ;-)
29 Perhaps you can look into your crystal ball and tell me how long Mo is going to be A) Healthy and B) Lights out? It's short-sighted view that has essentially constricted the most financially stable franchise in the game. Adding a little youth and depth to an aging roster will keep this team winning AL East titles (and hopefully more) for many years to come. Or would you rather wait until it's too late and they have to make desperate moves to stay afloat?
Furthermore, I don't know how much scouting experience you have, but is it too hard to assume you aren't the resident expert on the maturation and development of pitching?
42 I don't see said trade happening, because the "prospects" they're acquiring are not in high demand - because they're barely prospects. And if they make Sanchez into a closer, he's much less tradeable then. That leaves Clippard, a legit 2 to 4, as the only thing of true value to be moved.
The point is: Of the three MLB players traded this off-season, it's not too unreasonable to expect a young 1B and C in return. That's a major failure and I don't see it being remedied any time soon.
But I don't assume I know what I'm talking about - I liked the Weaver and Vazquez deals but hated the original Unit trade.
Further, I wasn't replying to you in any of the above posts - check the referenced numbers.
Santana was brought up as a reliever cause they didn't know what they had at the time. I don't know Liriano's story.
As for Mo, I don't know what I would have thought. But I highly doubt the Yanks knew what they had, even Mean Gene Michael. Someone like Mo just comes along and you just ride the wave.
43 The roster is not set. RJ was absolutely horrible last year. You know there were only 5 pitchers in baseball who qualified for the ERA title that were worse than him, right? And he stunk in the playoffs. A League Average SP could win 15+ games with this lineup.
Cairo should not see nearly as many AB's as last year, unless (heaven forbid) both corner OFs go down and a IF spends a not-so-brief stint on the DL. You are also dismissing the fact that with the surplus of young pitching these possibilities can be filled through other organizations.
46 I have no crystal ball, but I know enough to know that young pitching is important. But Cashman went overboard this off-season - I would rather have had a catching prospect or a 1B, and if ARI didn't want to move one 48, then you don't make the trade. When you look at their rotation for 2007 - it was Webb and Livan and.....They needed Unit more than the Yanks needed to be rid of him.
47 That's exactly why Cashman isn't making any significant moves between now and June, IMHO. I hope I'm wrong.
Shuan P, I don't get insider, but did Olney mention anything about Owings?
Also, this Carter guy sounds interesting. Was he the national scout for the D-Backs in recent years? Because if so, that's encouraging considering they have one of the three best farm systems in baseball now.
550 See, I think the roster is set, based on Cashman's m.o. - see 29.
And as bad as Randy was, he was still a little less than league average. Further, he was hurt. And all his peripherals show he wasn't as bad as his ERA. Many project him to have a much better year.
The point is ARI needed him more than the Yanks needed to get rid of him. The Yanks had the leverage to get more than they got.
With the bench, you never know. That's why even having Cairo around is folly. Last year, the youngest IF was out for 6 weeks. And Cairo played over 80 games.
Further, I'm not dismissing anything. I just don't think those "prospects" can bring back anything of value, unless it's a salary dump. Those don't happen until July. Unit was the last major trade and it failed to bring in what they need.
Wow, arguing on alot of fronts this morning. It's cool - I enjoy it.
51 I've been brow-beating you all AM, but I will agree they do need a C in the org. But I don't think they could have gotten the package value that they did from teams that have depth in that area. From what I've read, teams like PIT, CIN, ATL, ANA and SEA are the most deep (I may be leaving some out). All of those franchises are more likley willing to trade those very scarce resources for young arms than aging SP and high-priced OF, no matter what the Yanks paid of the remaining $s. I see the 1B thing as a minor issue. The '06 Yanks led baseball in RS. If anybody can afford a drop off it's them. Am I exstatic about it, no, but I don't think it's worth mentioning on a daily basis and it's kind of making a mountain out of a molehill if you ask me.
I agree, the DBacks really need RJ, but he's in a decline until I see otherwise. Plus they were going to value him more than anybody else because of nostaglia purposes and the attached ticket sales. Just because he wins 15+ in the very weak NL West does not mean he would have been successful in pinstripes.
43 That's hilarious, because I've sometimes wondered if you were Rob Gee. I am not, I've been posting here since long before Rob Gee was on the scene.
As for what Schteeve means, it means nothing. My name is Steve, and I used to work with some dude who called me "Sch-teeeeve." And I thought is was funnier than, "BigYankeeFan42" or something like that.
I don't understand why you assume Cashman settles for mediocre deals. He certainly knows more about baseball and players than anybody here, and I'm confident he makes the best deal available. For example, I bet you would've rather had Nippert, but Cashman has the insider info that led him to take Ohlendorf. WRT to that transaction list, what would you have done differently? Signed other FA's? Which ones? Nobody's perfect, but he's definitely improved the team.
re: they didn't have to deal Unit. A) He was unhappy, and his brother just died, so Cashman looked into it to see if it could work out for everyone. B) Many people think the Yankees did well. It's way too early to write it off as a flop considering the talent the Yanks got back in return.
Nobody in the world knew that Mo was going to be Mo back in 95 or whatever. He was coming off of TJ surgery, he was being converted to the bullpen etc.
If someone can find me one single scouting report or prospect analysis of Mo pre-95 or whatever year he started playing catch with Girardi, that says, "this guy is going to be one of the most dominant pitchers in the history of the game" I'll eat my hat. While it's on fire of course.
56 The D'backs have two young catchers. Even as I'm sure they would have preferred to hold onto both, for Unit they should have given up one.
58 No - I would not have been ok with Nippert or any other pitcher.
And Unit understood the Yanks needed to get a fair deal. He wasn't in a position to judge said deal AND he would have gone and done hiw job otherwise. The benchmark for me is the Wells deal last year. Even as they're not identical, the Sox got a legit replacement for Varitek.
59 My original point was in regards to 42. I have no idea what I would have thought about Mo moving to the bullpen. But I'm not so naive to think that Sanchez will somehow replace him. Otherwise, I'm very glad to have had a once in history player like Mo for these last 11 years.
57 Thanks for clearing that up, Steve (you are right, Schteeve is better than "BigYankeeFan42").
61 Yes murphy, I know it sounds corny but that is the way I feel about it. BTW, 63 helps prove my point. Things like marriages and births are celebrated here. I came here looking for Yankee info last spring and have discovered (as others have said) a bunch of new friends. IMO, this is the best place on the internet. Sorry for the sappy post. ;-)
Also, if Rob Gee is the prodigal son, will Alex and Cliff kill the fatted calf when he returns. I hope so... I'm hungry...
49 I don't think it is fair to call them "barely prospects" because Sickels rated them 18, 19, and 20 on his Diamondback top 20 over a month ago. Since the trade he revised his Yankee list (also including Sanchez and Whalen) and all three made the Yankees top 15....C+ or not they have potential.
# Phil Hughes, RHP, Grade A
# Jose Tabata, OF, Grade B+
# Humberto Sanchez, RHP, Grade B+
# Joba Chamberlain, RHP, B
# Tyler Clippard, RHP, B
# Dellin Betances, RHP, B
# J. Brent Cox, RHP, B
# George Kontos, RHP, B-
# Christian Garcia, RHP, B-
# Ian Kennedy, RHP, B-
# Tim Norton, RHP, B-
# Ross Ohlendorf, RHP, C+
# Kevin Whelan, RHP, C+
# Stephen Jackson, RHP, C+
# Alberto Gonzalez, SS, C+
# Brett Gardner, OF, C+
# Jeff Marquez, RHP, C+
# Zach McAllister, RHP, C+
# Chase Wright, LHP, C+
# Francisco Cervelli, C, C+
# T.J. Beam, RHP, C
# Eric Duncan, 1B, C
# Mitch Hilligoss, SS, C
67 I think Brett Gardner should be a lot lower than a C+. I have never seen anything that would lead me to believe he will ever hit enough to do anything meaningful in the big leagues.
"Rob Gee: a former Bronx Banter regular and sometimes controversial poster refocused his attention into his fledgling corporate takeover business after a short term banishment from the Banter. During the summer of 2006, he acquired a famous sausage manufacturer..."
67 Top 15, I feel comfortable calling barely prospects. Top 10 are more like prospects. And top 5, feels just right - at least for things like trades. That said, who ever really knows? Melky wasn't in the top 20 last year and Cano and Wang weren't rated that highly before that. But overall, pitching is much harder to predict than hitters. Which is again why I would have much preferred a C or 1B.
Sanchez - he's legit. And they're making him a relief pitcher. I guess they don't have much faith in the other 20 they have.
70 Known for shouting the line DIAF ______! When a player another team would make a spectacular play against the Yankees. DIAF stands for Die in a Fire. Always passionate, but very creepy to see it in game threads.
Also known for his obsession with free agent at the time, Milton Bradley.
From Fabian's excellent report on Brett Gardner over at the RLYW.
"The common trend across all three levels for Gardner was that his offensive utility was largely dependent on his batting average, which is in turn hugely affected by BABIP. This is important because the more you strike out, the higher your average on balls in play is going to have to be to post a good batting average.
Grade: If everything works out for Brett Gardner, he's the player that many think Scott Podsednik is. Defensively, he's rounding into shape, but can make the spectacular play on a regular basis due to his physical ability. Offensively, he is the definition of pest. It's a truly enjoyable thing to watch him fluster minor league defenses by beating out base hits and successfully stealing on pitch outs. That said, I'm very concerned that things aren't going to work out for him and that he is what he is, which right now is a defensive substitute and a pinch-runner. Gardner displayed just about no power during the minor league season as combined between Tampa, Trenton, and the AFL he only had 31 extra base hits. Given his speed, I would expect him to have collected more just off of the fact that anything in a gap or near a gap is an extra base hit for him. Unfortunately, a huge percentage of the balls he hits do not go much beyond the infield. So, despite the fact that he's solid or better in the 5 tools, other than power, Gardner's limitation in that department is so great that it potentially completely handicaps him. C+"
71 "Sanchez - he's legit. And they're making him a relief pitcher. I guess they don't have much faith in the other 20 they have."
perhaps ca$hman and the front office are playing down everyone's abilities a bit. (i refer you to the igawa press conference as an example.) this limits fan expectations and gives the kids a bit of wiggle room before the bleacher creatures jump down their throats.
if i were in any position to do so, i would try to protect the psyches of the youngsters. didn't melky get booed his first week up in july of '05? people were saying that he was going to take bernie's place, etc. he dropped a fly ball and had a rough couple of games and he was shipped back down.
this is pure speculation. i have nothing to back this up. i'm merely offering it up as a possibility.
I remember reading something in the Daily News a few years back with Gene Michael and they were asking him about Mo. He readily admitted he didn't know much about him and considered him a question mark because of the surgery. Then teams began asking about him so he checked into him and found that he gained some MPH on his heater-to the point that it was higher than his pre-surgery velocity. That's was when he decided that he better see what Mo was about. Did he have a clue he'd be the greatest closer ever? Probably not, but he definitely knew he had something of some value.
And I believe Jerome Williams signed a minor league deal a few weeks ago. Either w/Oakland or Washington, I can't recall at the moment...
76 Did Rob do that too? I always thought DIAF was a Ron Burgundy thing. I really thought poor Ron was going to spontaneously combust during some of the game threads last year. Now I have those same worries about Schteeve and Jim Gee... I mean Rob Dean... you know, the sausage guy...
77 here's another take on gardner, from pinstripe potentials (a great site. if i remembered who recommended it here the other day i would give a shout out... my apologies):
Outlook: Garder will be a major league player in some context. His ability to at least hit for doubles into the gap and his ability to maintain a respectable batting average will determine the role that he plays. In both Trenton and Arizona, he has shown a worrying tendency to strike out. In 26 games in Arizona, he has struck out 21 times (walking 27 times by the way). In 118 games in 2006 between Tampa and Trenton, he struck out 90 times while walking 70 times. A power hitter can afford to strike out, but a speedster like Gardner needs balls in play in order to reach base. Gardner has Juan Pierre type tools, with a little bit more on the plate discipline side of things than Pierre does. He plays better defense than Pierre. But the reason that Pierre was able to be a marginally good major league player for a couple of years was his ability to not strike out. By not striking out a lot, Pierre was able to hit .320+. Gardner will need to hit .300+ to allow his plate discipline to take over and be an effective hitter despite the lack of power. He can't strike out 110+ times a year and do that.
Grades: Ceiling B-, Health A, Comparison: Dave Roberts
I wonder what it would take to pry Laroche away from ATL? They were after Mike Gonzalez--maybe a package centering on Britton or Farnsworth could get him. That would get us a (relatively) young 1B.
I dont know. Unlike Pierre, Gardner's OBP isn't solely the result of his batting average. He may strike out, but he also walks. I'm not sure if he is starting in AA or AAA this season, but either way I believe it is a big year for him.
I'm not pegging him to be a great player or anything, but based on his current success in the past 2 years, a C+ rating isn't too low at all.
777986 Sounds like he could be brought up late in '07 for LIDR perhaps, see a few ABs while Damon gets a breather and eventually flipped to the NL where he'd be most useful.
71 I'm not sure how you define "legit." Sanchez has more eye-popping minor league numbers than any of the others (except for Hughes). He has also never pitched in a major league game and has never completed a season without injury. That's why he slipped from "Verlander's sidekick" to an expendable trade chip in the Tiger organization. The Yankee player development folks feel that he has a better future in short relief (and ulimately as a major league closer). The Yanks don't have a great record in player development, but these guys still know more than we do.
78 Speaking of lowered expectations, I'm surprised they haven't tried to do that with Phil Hughes. What if he struggles in his first few outings? There's going to be a lot of hysterical fans and radio show hosts.
88 He also hated Cashman and was obsessed with finding a backup catcher or a BUC, as he called it.
89 You're expecting us to work on the assumption that anyone - especially Yankee management - knows more than we do? Jeez, where's the fun in that? What would we even have to say?
71 The Yankees apparently made a decision to throw in less money and take a lesser package of prospects. I'm not sure that was a great idea, but that's what they did. And hey, they know better than I do, right?
81 Now that you mention it Bama, I always wondered if Ron Burgundy and Rob Gee were one and the same person.
65 I would have loved if the Yanks could have gotten a young catcher too, Jim. But there is just too much we don't know. If Arizona says Montero is untouchable, or that a 1B option is untouchable*, does it really benefit Cashman to hold firm?
If the Diamondbacks, who are trying to build a team that wins year after year, truly believe Montero is their catcher of the future, and is going to be a star, why would they give him up to get a 43-year-old pitcher who won't be with them in 2010? That's an unrealistic expectation.
As for potential 1B options, those come down to Chad Tracy or Conor Jackson.
Tracy is going to be 27 in '07. He played almost exclusively at 3B with worse defense than A-Rod. He hit .281/.343/.451 - .313/.372/.529 at home, a Womackian .252/.315/.376 on the road. Ugh. As a lefty, he hit righties well (.304/.370/.496) but could not hit lefties at all (.231/.281/.346). Pass.
Then there's Jackson. He'll be 25 in '07, and is a righty-hitting first baseman, though his glovework was blah as well. He hit .291/.368/.441 - . Though, as a righty, his lefty/righty splits were about equal. Still, 15 home runs out of 1B in a hitter's park . . . and that was his career high (majors and minors)! Maybe the power comes but I wouldn't hold my breath.
And finally, I wouldn't say Kottaras is all that great either. If you check out his numbers, he walks, but with very little power and he's never hit over .300 in AA or AAA. Many people-in-the-know wonder if he'll actually develop into a good MLB catcher - Kevin Goldstein did not have him in Boston's top 10, John Sickels had him at #8 (Grade B: "Should be ready in 2008, solid but not terrific"), and he did not make BA's top 10 either.
92 Of course second guessing is our raison d'etre. And we pride ourselves with our use of the two tools readily at our disposal, statistics and history. When it comes to projecting a pitcher as a starter or reliever, statistics don't tell us much. We need to get into body type, delivery style and injury history. That's Will Carrol territory. Most of us just aren't holding there.
I certainly don't mind taking Yankee management to task when we have the facts to back up our claims. But mocking the team for moving a pitcher to the bullpen with the sole argument that he has the second best stats of any minor league starter in the system just makes us look silly.
97 When they already have 67 RHRP, and that's the most volitile of all prospects to project?
Can I mock them for trading Shef, Wright, and Unit for 6 RHRP and 1 defense-only SS? When it's put in those terms, doesn't that seem even a teensy bit INSANE?
96 I've gone back and forth on the 1B's. I don't know - that's why Cashman makes the big bucks.
They should have held out for Montero. I don't do the trade otherwise. ARI would have caved - they had Webb, Livan, and then prospects in their rotation. Unit makes a big difference - in performance, ticket sales, media attention...
As for Kottaras, I say:
.283 AVG .383 OBP .450 SLG in 4 MiLB seasons and he's 23 yo. Plate discipline never goes away and SLG might still develop. I'd be very surprised if we don't see him in bloody socks this year.
For comparison, here's Jorge's Mi numbers:
.258 AVG .368 OBP .436 SLG and he didn't come up until he was 26. He's never hit .300 and I wouldn't hold that against him.
Oh, and here's his career MLB numbers:
.270 AVG .375 OBP .472 SLG
Same patience, and more pop.
The Sox got themselves a very good deal, for a change. The Yanks didn't.
99 I'm just not that high on Kottaras. Maybe he makes a good adjustment to AAA in Pawtucket, but maybe not. His first look at AAA did not go well, which suggests that he needs more time in the minors and that his first look at the majors might not go well either. So the Sox could have a starting catcher ready to replace Varitek in 2008 or 2009, but I'm not too worried about then right now.
And I honestly think trying to hold out for Montero would have been a fool's errand - I don't think the Diamondbacks would have ever said yes.
As usual Jim, I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. =)
"I have a hard time saying the Yanks have done more than trim payroll. That's just me."
JD's raison d'êtrement... >;)
I dunno about anyone else, but I think if Cashman makes any more moves before the beginning of the season, it's to shore up the weak bench and not for anymore starters. If he's not dumb, and a lot of us believe that, then he's reassured Torre that HIS main worry (pitching) is solved, and then he can fly under the radar and get some glove gems to compete with Torre's toys on the bench. Getting younger was the mantra, reducing payroll the M.O., let's see if he can slide in some real competition under everyone's nose...
51 Jim... I studied with a reknown Guru for 2 years, and amoung the many important life lesson he taugh me, there were three caveats I will never forget:
1) A man can NEVER have too much money
2) A woman can NEVER have too much cleavage
3) A baseball team can NEVR have too much pitching
Young pitching is the currency of the game. It may take a little time, but it can always be converted to other positions.
Fortunately, Cashman has bucked the tide of instant gradification. The right guy, for the right position, for the right term, for the right price, is not always available at the right time.
Please go back to all your posts and count up the times you said: "Cashman COULD have gotten (this guy) instead". I have to ask. How do you know? Were you at the discussion table? Was Cashman? We all offer our opinions here. They are all valuable, and I think respected. I don't want to war on you, but there is a difference between an opinion and making statements as if they were facts.
I do NOT think Cashman is running this team like Bush is running the war. He DOES have a plan. He IS looking at the future. He DOES see the big picture. He is willing to settle for a small loss now (Cairo, DougOut, etc) for a bigger gain later.
Too me, it looks like Cashman in turning into Billy Beane with money... and if so, we will have another dynasty.
18 "Barry Bonds could not be more of a jacka$$. Gets caught using amphetamines"
A baseball player using amphetamines? I don't believe it. I simply CAN'T believe it.
105 I think he was more confounded by the fact that he actually got caught. The rags are using the word drugs (Knicks win three in a row, slow news day I guess)
a) 6 RHRP + 1 A-Gon was the BEST that could be had for Shef, Unit, and Wright?
b) MCI, Phelps, Phillips were the BEST that could be had for 1B?
c) Nieves/Chavez were the BEST that could be had for BUC?
d) Cairo was the BEST that could be had for UIF?
That's the off-season, right there. And yup, I think it's a fact, he could have done better - much better - for (a) through (d).
By the way, the pitcher is only one position on the field. You can have too much, if you have no other prospects. That's the status of the Yankee farm right now save Tabata, and he has a long way to go. Now I've never seen a team fielded with all pitchers before. It's an interesting concept, to be sure.
108 "Now I've never seen a team fielded with all pitchers before. It's an interesting concept, to be sure."
Why do you think Kansas City always gets off to a rough start??
By the by, Erickson was a favor to Giambi more than anything (why, I dunno) and wasn't Thompson injured when they called up Long? Or maybe that was Torre's fault...
If Politics and Religion are out, can we at LEAST talk about sex?
The other day, we had an (almost banned) discussion on health care systems. 1) It is the off-season 2) It' slow 3) We are dying for decent news to dabate 4) That thread, baseball wise, was basically dripple.
I am simply amazed at the regional and intellectual diversity of posters here. I have been to many, many blogs where the discussion was sewer level. Almost like an outhouse for baseball related diareah.
In our healthcare discussion, THREE people chimmed in with their actual experiences with a (non USA) country's solialized health care system. This is amazing stuff. I learn things here, and get awesome opinions, that I don't find on the numerous political blogs I frequent. I learn a great deal here, and not just about baseball.
I believe we should basically stick to baseball, and make that a rule. But rules are made to be (tastefully with discretion) broken. When a discussion is as thoughtful and intelligent as our 'Health Care Debate', well.... that's one of the amazing things about our BB family... one of the things that sets BB apart.
I believe we can be self-policing and a bit forgiving with off-topic matters.
109 Just save yourself the trouble trying to reason with JD. He's obviously wearing his anti-Ca$hman blinders. Now I'm not one to chug the Kool Aid, but yeah, I think he did the best he could with what was out there.
Sheff was going to pout about his extension and to be honest he won't be worth it. His attitude needed to be off the team.
RJ, similar and he wanted out for personal reasons. Plus he's not the Ace people like to think he is.
Wright couldn't get out of the 6th inning.
There comes a time when you have to either fish or cut bait. It's not like the Yanks are starting from square one, but they needed a personel overhaul. What not get rid of the cancer while working towards your long term goals? 108 b) Those 1B aren't costing hardly anything. What do they have to lose?
c) I wish they would have gone after Leiberthal and Hall too.
d) Cairo, while not the best reserve IF is capable and has Torre's trust.
Apparently you have this vision of "The Perfect GM", well it doesn't exist and your nitpicking is becoming tiresome. I think most "experts" agree Cashman probably did about as well as anybody in baseball this offseason for the short and long term health of the franchise.
(a) 6 RHRP + 1 A-Gon = "the best he could with what was out there"
- There were no other prospects to be had - nothing, huh?
(b) True. What did they have to lose if they signed someone? Money? So what.
(c) So you think Cashman could have done better at BUC? A revelation!
(d) How exactly is Cairo capable with a 59 OPS+ after a 64 OPS+ in 2005? And now you're supporting moves because of Torre's trust? Wow. Who are you - Joe Torre Jr.?
As for nitpicking - that's the whole damn off-season (save Moose and Pettitte - who both wanted to be Yankees). And he could have done better in every respect based on the players that were available and signed elsewhere. As for the prospects, I'll repeat: 6 RHRP + 1 A-Gon!? You've got to be f'in kidding me!?
BTW: Cashman is going on vacation next week, as per PeteAbe. Stick a fork in this off-season - what you see is what you get. Bravo!
56 We do have a C in the org, but he's 4-5 years out. He is however, touted as one of the best C prospects in a while. If someone remembers his name, please shout it out.
112 I know, standup, I was just bored and rattling his sabre is fun as long as you don't get personal >;) JD reminds me of Rob Gee in that he always he's almost always ready with a genuine, passionate response whether it's right or wrong. I missed out on that fun by a mere couple of hours, but between Burgandy, Schteeve and Jim Dean, I think we have enough pitbulls here to last us a life time... thank goodness he's a Yankee fan >;)
118 Duude... don't even joke like that... JD'll rip your heart out and eat it...
Schteeve will breath fire and smoke us all to the ground...
debris will come around with arcane rationalizations...
Free agent Bernie Williams, 38, no longer qualifies as an everyday center fielder, but he could make sense for the Cubs as a mentor to Pie.
The Cubs haven't discussed Williams, in part because it is unclear whether he will continue playing if he can not re-sign with the Yankees.
"That's a bridge Bernie and I haven't crossed yet," Williams' agent, Scott Boras, said Wednesday. "When we get definition from the Yankees, Bernie will evaluate that and advise me."
"I understand by making the move with Randy Johnson, I do put our rotation at risk," Cashman said. "Maybe you could describe it as taking a half-step back to take a greater step forward with more inventory to turn to, either with a trade or with a new Yankee player who can emerge."
So, your call is a good one.... but not a mistake by Cashman, but a calculated gamble.
133 I've said it once and I'll say it again: My problem wasn't trading the SOB - it was the package they got in return. They should have gotten something useful esp. since the D'backs were going to camp with Webb and Livan and prospects and had inventory at every position for which the Yankee farm is lacking.
See, I can deal with the calculated gamble. But when all the trades add up to is: 6 RHRP and 1 A-Gon. That's disgusting.
Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.
Schoeneweis, Mets, agree to 3-year deal
Mulder is staying with the Card, $13m/2 years
So... the number of pitchers with 2 arms dwindles.
I still thing Cashman will get a SP and an RP before Spring. Roger? I don't think so.
Any predictions on the 2 next (NON farmhands) pitchers to wear pinstripes?
carl pavano.
(he'll seem like a new acquisition, anyway.)
...i'm telling you, he will shock the world with his relatively consistent middling performance. mark my words.
It used to be money was the main ingredient for signing a premier arm but now prospects are the key. Too many other organizations are capable of stepping forward and making a "statement" and the competition for guys like Zito tend to bring out the business side of the game. Witness the statement move by that nitwit real estate organization in Boston (god rest ye merry nitwits, let nothing you dismay, remember matsuzaka was signed the other day -- adapted from soxoholics without permission).
Real baseball execs look at these money + prospects deals. If the Twinkies come up with a couple of baby santanas in the group above, they get them for 5 or 6 years -- two santanas for one as it were. In the meantime one of the premier players in the game gets to strut his stuff on the true field of dreams, New York City, baby.
I think Cash is going all out to bring us a Ron Guidry type performer. This team is aching for that and will not survive the playoffs without one. Andy, Moose and Wang do not a series winner make. But you put Johan my Johan into that mix and flavor with a Rocket's red glare, you suddenly see George surrounded by Cash, Joe, and the son-in-law uncontrollably sobbing into the microphone -- a montage of such horror for sawks fans that one could only envision victory in Iraq and a draft W movement for a third term as anything worse.
George is getting old and they WILL win once before the old man does not go off gently into the night. Rage for Johan my Johan, George.
It also means Melky is gone and Bernie gets to drive in the winning run in game 5 -- of course we will have to survive an entire year of GOB negativity for that to happen but to those of us who write golden endings on behalf of the divinity, let me humbly say, go for it.
Whaaat!?
The guy projects as the second best pitcher in the organization, behind Phil Huge, and they're going to convert him why? So Rasner, White, and Karstens can stay in the rotation?
Better, that means the Yanks acquired, in their minds, six RH relief pitchers this off-season. Brilliant!
At least Sheehan is making sense regarding the Unit deal, as SStN points out in the other thread.
It's a good dream, though, I guess.
And I, for one, will be shocked if: a) Rocket comes back to the Yanks 8; and (b) if the GM makes any other moves before Spring, outside of minor league contracts 2. The GM's modus operandi is to get things done early then sit until June.
the twins wouldn't deal santana to the yankees unless they got hughes, and that ain't gonna happen.
"a montage of such horror for sawks fans that one could only envision victory in Iraq and a draft W movement for a third term as anything worse."
Are you saying that "sawks fans" would think a victory in Iraq would be worse than the Yankees winning the Serious?
You know the "closer" of the sawks was supposed to be some kid whose name we can't remember and who is working out at Boston College now, hoping to make a mark in spring training. Who knew what Popplearm was supposed to be until he actually did it. How many innings does he throw this year before he gets shut down?
The point is that the twinkies need to move santana in 2007 to get a boatload of pitching prospects from somebody. We have a boatload of prospects + melky. And the GM egos are there for something big to go down.
Cash is in a win-win. He can afford to sit back and wait and still come up smelling like roses (maybe)
Or he can make the santana move and come up smelling like roses (maybe).
Clemens->Giambi->Johnson->Santana. Cash has a history of making big name moves.
24 days to spring training...
Most notable is probably Rasner in February.
Weaver's Eighth Law: The best place for a rookie pitcher is in long relief.
I think you would have to go back to Claire Booth Luce and hatred of FDR to capture the present mood of liberal dems and W. So the answer to your question, given a trade off of Yanks in '07 vs W returns in '08, yes,these nitwits would don the NYY logo in a heartbeat.
That said, remember that I always reserve the right to wildly exaggerate on any topic. There are some who feel these diversions are an offense to humanity and "the game". I apologize for my senseless injection of cultural politics into what otherwise is a brilliant conspiracy theory on why Johan My Johan will be atop the mound in the bronx this year.
There are two legitimate uses for a farm system: to supply new players directly, or to supply trading chips. And for that second purpose, you have to trade some of your top-rated prospects.
Of the Top Ten prospects list each year, I can guarantee at least one thing: some of them are overrated. The trick is to scout your own players well and identify them. You'll make some mistakes...but you'll make some mistakes by keeping everyone, too.
Not that long ago, a lot of writers felt it was foolhardy to trade away a 24-year-old lefty like Brandon Claussen.
[Bernie] Can you make with the retirement speech already??
Johan in 07, now that is a bandwagon that even Jim Dean (if that is your real name) could jump on (sorry Jim ;-).
I think it's our job to be responsible and keep things civil in here. When I read anything about politics around here, I just ignore it, no matter how strong the urge to go off on some tirade.
19
Let's look at that list:
1/6/06: Signed Cairo
2/11/06: Claims Rasner off waivers
2/16/06: Signed Scott Erickson
4/6/06: Claims Koyie Hill off waivers
4/15/06: Signed Colome and Pena
5/19/06: Signed Terrence Long
5/21/06: Signed Durazo
This shows what?
That Cashman will sign has-beens between now and June. And none are up-grades in any sense of the word. Rasner is the exception, not the rule, and even then it's because Bowden is a worse GM than CASH-man. Before and after Rasner? That shows you all you need to know about the GM's m.o.
In the second half of the year maybe a Guiel or a Bruney will come along. But not now because other teams want to see what they've got.
The Unit trade was the last chance to upgrade for 2007. And they failed miserably.
The quote was something like, "Wang, Moose, and Pettitte do not a Series winner make."
Well what about Weaver, Reyes, and Carpenter? Or Rogers, and Bonderman?
You don't need Santana to win the World Series.
As for the "Guidry in waiting," you don't know who it's going to be, so there is safety in numbers. Of all the Yankees' pitching prospects, Phil Hughes is the only one who projects as an ace, but he could still flop and someone else might emerge. Thirty years ago, Guidry was Alex Graman (short, ineffective major-league stints in '75 and '76). Thirty-one years ago, Tippy Martinez and Scotty MacGregor were Brian Bruney and Sean Henn, and we were drooling over Dave Pagan's fastball.
I will say that when Cashman says things like "pitchability" i want to light myself on fire.
Now that Shef trade is looking worse and worse. Two RH relief pitchers in return for a 40 HR 100 RBI guy. Brilliant!
I agree with you mehmattski that politics (and religion like yankz mentioned in 24) are probably places we should not go on a baseball site.
The best thing about this site for me is that we are like a big family. Even though I love my family, I generally do not discuss politics or religion with those who I know disagree with me as it mostly leads to heated arguments. That has always been my theory on this site. The only thing we all agree on (with the exception of the trolls) is our love for the Yankees.
Therefore, discussing others topics (while sometimes fun and entertaining) can certainly lead to problems. The civility displayed on this site usually helps us know when to stop and return to what we all love...
Let's go Yankees!
The roster is more flexible, the organization has more liquid personell assets, than it has had in years.
I still wonder what the bench is going to look like, and the lack of a league average backup catcher is worrisome.
But on the whole, I support the work Cashman has done so far, and the direction he seems to be taking with the team.
Also, I enjoyed the way you misspelled my "screen name." That was exceedingly clever.
if there are no children present, and you aren't working, and you aren't easily offended by profanity, take a listen to this:
http://tinyurl.com/y3eeyj
must've been a tough day at the ballpark.
What I don't understand is, why does everyone keep ignoring team payroll? In 2007, the Twins' payroll is probably going to be in the $65M range again. Let's presume it will be around $65-$70M in '08 and '09, and then can jump to $75-$80M (or higher) in 2010 when their new stadium opens. Don't forget, everyone is making a lot of money with the new TV deal, MLBAM, the XM deal, and revenue sharing.
In 2007, two Twins will make 8 figures: Santana ($12M) and Torii Hunter ($12M). The next highest paid Twin is Luis Castillo at $5.75M, then Joe Nathan at $5.25M, Carlos Silva at 4M, Rondell White at $2.5M, Jeff Cirillo at $1.5M, Dennys Reyes at $1M, and Mike Redmond at $1M. A couple of guys are arbitration-eligible, but most of the rest (10+ guys) will make $500K or less, having 3 years or less of MLB service time.
Of the $1M plus group, Santana ($13.5M), Nathan ($6M), Reyes ($1M), and Redmond ($1M) are the only guys under contract for '08. The Twins being the Twins, the other guys are likely gone, freeing up almost $20M (taking Santana and Nathan's raises into account).
My point is, even if Terry Ryan buys out Mauer and Morneau's arbitration years - which he probably will - and even if he has to pay Cuddyer $5M/year in '07 and '08, to pay Santana $20M (or more) a season isn't going to be hard. Especially with a likely increase in attendence (they did win the AL Central this past year, and have the MVP, Cy Young, and batting champ), the way revenues just keep growing MLB-wide, and with a new stadium on the horizon.
I think Ca$hmoney is stocking up on pitching prospects because he expects to have a 3/5 inexpensive, fantastic home-grown rotation by 2010, and to supplement those guys with some young hitters gained by trading pitching prospects. I believe things really have changed in Yankeeland.
Further, you've ignored most comments relating to the ability of Cashman to perform another trade with some of the many arms we have. It may not come before spring training, it may come closer to the trade deadline in July. The roster is fluid, it is not set. I suppose you would have opposed to making Rivera into a reliever in 1996.
(Flashback) Jim Dean: but mehmattski, he threw those 8 shutout innings against the White Sox last year! He's a bone fide starter! Bob Watson is an idiot!
The bench is worse, unbelievably. Cairo is a downgrade from Cairo and the eventual lump in the BUC slot is worse than Kelly Fasano. The 1B sinkhole is certainly worse than Shef. The only saving grace is Melky and the only upgrade is the failure to re-sign Bernie. We'll see if those hold.
The rotation, IMHO, is filled with more questions than answers. Sure, there's a spot for Hughes to win but only if Meat or Igawa both fail to produce. But the Yanks also have to give him the chance. Otherwise, Rasner and Karstens are cheaper but not necessarily better than Unit.
The bullpen is a bullpen. If Britton and Vizcaino help - great. But I'll believe it when I see it.
And all those prospects and flexibility mean squat if they never make the team or can't be trade for more established players. That's an unknown right now. But the players they acquired for Unit are upgrades in no area of their organization - that means they didn't need any of those guys.
The financial flexibility also means nothing for 2007 if they don't sign Clemens - which I don't think they will.
On the whole, Cashman gets a passing mark, but by no means is he at the head of the class. And for what he could have done, I'm more disappointed than anything else.
But should I just call you Steve or are you Rob Gee?
"There was some surprise that the Yankees didn't land pitching prospect Dustin Nippert in their Randy Johnson trade talks with the Arizona Diamondbacks. But the Yankees were guided in their conversations by Kendall Carter, the former national scouting coordinator for the D-Backs; the Yankees just hired Carter last fall as a crosschecker, and based on his inside knowledge of the Arizona system, he recommended that the Yankees pursue Ross Ohlendorf, the sinkerballer who became the centerpiece of the deal. Executives with rival teams say that Nippert's stock has actually fallen in recent months, and say that at a time when organizations are hoarding their best pitching prospects, they [Arizona] have made it known they are willing to swap Nippert in the right deal."
Translation - Arizona was trying to sell high on Nippert.
Furthermore, I don't know how much scouting experience you have, but is it too hard to assume you aren't the resident expert on the maturation and development of pitching?
The point is: Of the three MLB players traded this off-season, it's not too unreasonable to expect a young 1B and C in return. That's a major failure and I don't see it being remedied any time soon.
But I don't assume I know what I'm talking about - I liked the Weaver and Vazquez deals but hated the original Unit trade.
Further, I wasn't replying to you in any of the above posts - check the referenced numbers.
Santana was brought up as a reliever cause they didn't know what they had at the time. I don't know Liriano's story.
As for Mo, I don't know what I would have thought. But I highly doubt the Yanks knew what they had, even Mean Gene Michael. Someone like Mo just comes along and you just ride the wave.
Cairo should not see nearly as many AB's as last year, unless (heaven forbid) both corner OFs go down and a IF spends a not-so-brief stint on the DL. You are also dismissing the fact that with the surplus of young pitching these possibilities can be filled through other organizations.
47 That's exactly why Cashman isn't making any significant moves between now and June, IMHO. I hope I'm wrong.
Also, according to Birth of a Dynasty, the Yankees definitely knew what they had in Mo.
Also, this Carter guy sounds interesting. Was he the national scout for the D-Backs in recent years? Because if so, that's encouraging considering they have one of the three best farm systems in baseball now.
And as bad as Randy was, he was still a little less than league average. Further, he was hurt. And all his peripherals show he wasn't as bad as his ERA. Many project him to have a much better year.
The point is ARI needed him more than the Yanks needed to get rid of him. The Yanks had the leverage to get more than they got.
With the bench, you never know. That's why even having Cairo around is folly. Last year, the youngest IF was out for 6 weeks. And Cairo played over 80 games.
Further, I'm not dismissing anything. I just don't think those "prospects" can bring back anything of value, unless it's a salary dump. Those don't happen until July. Unit was the last major trade and it failed to bring in what they need.
Wow, arguing on alot of fronts this morning. It's cool - I enjoy it.
And 54 should have referenced 50 at the beginning.
I agree, the DBacks really need RJ, but he's in a decline until I see otherwise. Plus they were going to value him more than anybody else because of nostaglia purposes and the attached ticket sales. Just because he wins 15+ in the very weak NL West does not mean he would have been successful in pinstripes.
As for what Schteeve means, it means nothing. My name is Steve, and I used to work with some dude who called me "Sch-teeeeve." And I thought is was funnier than, "BigYankeeFan42" or something like that.
re: they didn't have to deal Unit. A) He was unhappy, and his brother just died, so Cashman looked into it to see if it could work out for everyone. B) Many people think the Yankees did well. It's way too early to write it off as a flop considering the talent the Yanks got back in return.
Gonzalez is the next Ozzie!
Ross is the next Wang!
etc.
Afterall, he was one of the guys who helped to draft them.
Montero or Tracey and you don't see me bitching. The Yanks, could have (cause they were in no rush, and should have held out.
i will admit i feel out of the "family" loop as i have posted so little this off-season (real life stuff like marriage, grad school, etc).
but if we are a family, can we expect Rob Gee to return like the prodigal son?
http://tinyurl.com/vgef8
If someone can find me one single scouting report or prospect analysis of Mo pre-95 or whatever year he started playing catch with Girardi, that says, "this guy is going to be one of the most dominant pitchers in the history of the game" I'll eat my hat. While it's on fire of course.
58 No - I would not have been ok with Nippert or any other pitcher.
And Unit understood the Yanks needed to get a fair deal. He wasn't in a position to judge said deal AND he would have gone and done hiw job otherwise. The benchmark for me is the Wells deal last year. Even as they're not identical, the Sox got a legit replacement for Varitek.
59 My original point was in regards to 42. I have no idea what I would have thought about Mo moving to the bullpen. But I'm not so naive to think that Sanchez will somehow replace him. Otherwise, I'm very glad to have had a once in history player like Mo for these last 11 years.
61 Yes murphy, I know it sounds corny but that is the way I feel about it. BTW, 63 helps prove my point. Things like marriages and births are celebrated here. I came here looking for Yankee info last spring and have discovered (as others have said) a bunch of new friends. IMO, this is the best place on the internet. Sorry for the sappy post. ;-)
Also, if Rob Gee is the prodigal son, will Alex and Cliff kill the fatted calf when he returns. I hope so... I'm hungry...
# Phil Hughes, RHP, Grade A
# Jose Tabata, OF, Grade B+
# Humberto Sanchez, RHP, Grade B+
# Joba Chamberlain, RHP, B
# Tyler Clippard, RHP, B
# Dellin Betances, RHP, B
# J. Brent Cox, RHP, B
# George Kontos, RHP, B-
# Christian Garcia, RHP, B-
# Ian Kennedy, RHP, B-
# Tim Norton, RHP, B-
# Ross Ohlendorf, RHP, C+
# Kevin Whelan, RHP, C+
# Stephen Jackson, RHP, C+
# Alberto Gonzalez, SS, C+
# Brett Gardner, OF, C+
# Jeff Marquez, RHP, C+
# Zach McAllister, RHP, C+
# Chase Wright, LHP, C+
# Francisco Cervelli, C, C+
# T.J. Beam, RHP, C
# Eric Duncan, 1B, C
# Mitch Hilligoss, SS, C
"Rob Gee: a former Bronx Banter regular and sometimes controversial poster refocused his attention into his fledgling corporate takeover business after a short term banishment from the Banter. During the summer of 2006, he acquired a famous sausage manufacturer..."
Sanchez - he's legit. And they're making him a relief pitcher. I guess they don't have much faith in the other 20 they have.
He doesn't have any power to speak of, but he is doing well so far.
Also known for his obsession with free agent at the time, Milton Bradley.
"The common trend across all three levels for Gardner was that his offensive utility was largely dependent on his batting average, which is in turn hugely affected by BABIP. This is important because the more you strike out, the higher your average on balls in play is going to have to be to post a good batting average.
Grade: If everything works out for Brett Gardner, he's the player that many think Scott Podsednik is. Defensively, he's rounding into shape, but can make the spectacular play on a regular basis due to his physical ability. Offensively, he is the definition of pest. It's a truly enjoyable thing to watch him fluster minor league defenses by beating out base hits and successfully stealing on pitch outs. That said, I'm very concerned that things aren't going to work out for him and that he is what he is, which right now is a defensive substitute and a pinch-runner. Gardner displayed just about no power during the minor league season as combined between Tampa, Trenton, and the AFL he only had 31 extra base hits. Given his speed, I would expect him to have collected more just off of the fact that anything in a gap or near a gap is an extra base hit for him. Unfortunately, a huge percentage of the balls he hits do not go much beyond the infield. So, despite the fact that he's solid or better in the 5 tools, other than power, Gardner's limitation in that department is so great that it potentially completely handicaps him. C+"
perhaps ca$hman and the front office are playing down everyone's abilities a bit. (i refer you to the igawa press conference as an example.) this limits fan expectations and gives the kids a bit of wiggle room before the bleacher creatures jump down their throats.
if i were in any position to do so, i would try to protect the psyches of the youngsters. didn't melky get booed his first week up in july of '05? people were saying that he was going to take bernie's place, etc. he dropped a fly ball and had a rough couple of games and he was shipped back down.
this is pure speculation. i have nothing to back this up. i'm merely offering it up as a possibility.
And I believe Jerome Williams signed a minor league deal a few weeks ago. Either w/Oakland or Washington, I can't recall at the moment...
Outlook: Garder will be a major league player in some context. His ability to at least hit for doubles into the gap and his ability to maintain a respectable batting average will determine the role that he plays. In both Trenton and Arizona, he has shown a worrying tendency to strike out. In 26 games in Arizona, he has struck out 21 times (walking 27 times by the way). In 118 games in 2006 between Tampa and Trenton, he struck out 90 times while walking 70 times. A power hitter can afford to strike out, but a speedster like Gardner needs balls in play in order to reach base. Gardner has Juan Pierre type tools, with a little bit more on the plate discipline side of things than Pierre does. He plays better defense than Pierre. But the reason that Pierre was able to be a marginally good major league player for a couple of years was his ability to not strike out. By not striking out a lot, Pierre was able to hit .320+. Gardner will need to hit .300+ to allow his plate discipline to take over and be an effective hitter despite the lack of power. He can't strike out 110+ times a year and do that.
Grades: Ceiling B-, Health A, Comparison: Dave Roberts
I'm not pegging him to be a great player or anything, but based on his current success in the past 2 years, a C+ rating isn't too low at all.
88 He also hated Cashman and was obsessed with finding a backup catcher or a BUC, as he called it.
65 I would have loved if the Yanks could have gotten a young catcher too, Jim. But there is just too much we don't know. If Arizona says Montero is untouchable, or that a 1B option is untouchable*, does it really benefit Cashman to hold firm?
If the Diamondbacks, who are trying to build a team that wins year after year, truly believe Montero is their catcher of the future, and is going to be a star, why would they give him up to get a 43-year-old pitcher who won't be with them in 2010? That's an unrealistic expectation.
As for potential 1B options, those come down to Chad Tracy or Conor Jackson.
Tracy is going to be 27 in '07. He played almost exclusively at 3B with worse defense than A-Rod. He hit .281/.343/.451 - .313/.372/.529 at home, a Womackian .252/.315/.376 on the road. Ugh. As a lefty, he hit righties well (.304/.370/.496) but could not hit lefties at all (.231/.281/.346). Pass.
Then there's Jackson. He'll be 25 in '07, and is a righty-hitting first baseman, though his glovework was blah as well. He hit .291/.368/.441 - . Though, as a righty, his lefty/righty splits were about equal. Still, 15 home runs out of 1B in a hitter's park . . . and that was his career high (majors and minors)! Maybe the power comes but I wouldn't hold my breath.
And finally, I wouldn't say Kottaras is all that great either. If you check out his numbers, he walks, but with very little power and he's never hit over .300 in AA or AAA. Many people-in-the-know wonder if he'll actually develop into a good MLB catcher - Kevin Goldstein did not have him in Boston's top 10, John Sickels had him at #8 (Grade B: "Should be ready in 2008, solid but not terrific"), and he did not make BA's top 10 either.
I certainly don't mind taking Yankee management to task when we have the facts to back up our claims. But mocking the team for moving a pitcher to the bullpen with the sole argument that he has the second best stats of any minor league starter in the system just makes us look silly.
Can I mock them for trading Shef, Wright, and Unit for 6 RHRP and 1 defense-only SS? When it's put in those terms, doesn't that seem even a teensy bit INSANE?
They should have held out for Montero. I don't do the trade otherwise. ARI would have caved - they had Webb, Livan, and then prospects in their rotation. Unit makes a big difference - in performance, ticket sales, media attention...
As for Kottaras, I say:
.283 AVG .383 OBP .450 SLG in 4 MiLB seasons and he's 23 yo. Plate discipline never goes away and SLG might still develop. I'd be very surprised if we don't see him in bloody socks this year.
For comparison, here's Jorge's Mi numbers:
.258 AVG .368 OBP .436 SLG and he didn't come up until he was 26. He's never hit .300 and I wouldn't hold that against him.
Oh, and here's his career MLB numbers:
.270 AVG .375 OBP .472 SLG
Same patience, and more pop.
The Sox got themselves a very good deal, for a change. The Yanks didn't.
And I honestly think trying to hold out for Montero would have been a fool's errand - I don't think the Diamondbacks would have ever said yes.
As usual Jim, I'll guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. =)
But I'm of the belief that the Yanks could have held on to Unit until Phil Huge was ready to go in June, or if they were going to sign Clemens.
It didn't work out that way. Still when I put the off-season in these terms:
Shef, Unit, Wright = 6 RHRP and 1 A-Gon
I have a hard time saying the Yanks have done more than trim payroll. That's just me.
JD's raison d'êtrement... >;)
I dunno about anyone else, but I think if Cashman makes any more moves before the beginning of the season, it's to shore up the weak bench and not for anymore starters. If he's not dumb, and a lot of us believe that, then he's reassured Torre that HIS main worry (pitching) is solved, and then he can fly under the radar and get some glove gems to compete with Torre's toys on the bench. Getting younger was the mantra, reducing payroll the M.O., let's see if he can slide in some real competition under everyone's nose...
1) A man can NEVER have too much money
2) A woman can NEVER have too much cleavage
3) A baseball team can NEVR have too much pitching
Young pitching is the currency of the game. It may take a little time, but it can always be converted to other positions.
Fortunately, Cashman has bucked the tide of instant gradification. The right guy, for the right position, for the right term, for the right price, is not always available at the right time.
Please go back to all your posts and count up the times you said: "Cashman COULD have gotten (this guy) instead". I have to ask. How do you know? Were you at the discussion table? Was Cashman? We all offer our opinions here. They are all valuable, and I think respected. I don't want to war on you, but there is a difference between an opinion and making statements as if they were facts.
I do NOT think Cashman is running this team like Bush is running the war. He DOES have a plan. He IS looking at the future. He DOES see the big picture. He is willing to settle for a small loss now (Cairo, DougOut, etc) for a bigger gain later.
Too me, it looks like Cashman in turning into Billy Beane with money... and if so, we will have another dynasty.
A baseball player using amphetamines? I don't believe it. I simply CAN'T believe it.
103 So you're telling me that:
a) 6 RHRP + 1 A-Gon was the BEST that could be had for Shef, Unit, and Wright?
b) MCI, Phelps, Phillips were the BEST that could be had for 1B?
c) Nieves/Chavez were the BEST that could be had for BUC?
d) Cairo was the BEST that could be had for UIF?
That's the off-season, right there. And yup, I think it's a fact, he could have done better - much better - for (a) through (d).
By the way, the pitcher is only one position on the field. You can have too much, if you have no other prospects. That's the status of the Yankee farm right now save Tabata, and he has a long way to go. Now I've never seen a team fielded with all pitchers before. It's an interesting concept, to be sure.
Why do you think Kansas City always gets off to a rough start??
By the by, Erickson was a favor to Giambi more than anything (why, I dunno) and wasn't Thompson injured when they called up Long? Or maybe that was Torre's fault...
Wow, he's a really horrible GM.
The other day, we had an (almost banned) discussion on health care systems. 1) It is the off-season 2) It' slow 3) We are dying for decent news to dabate 4) That thread, baseball wise, was basically dripple.
I am simply amazed at the regional and intellectual diversity of posters here. I have been to many, many blogs where the discussion was sewer level. Almost like an outhouse for baseball related diareah.
In our healthcare discussion, THREE people chimmed in with their actual experiences with a (non USA) country's solialized health care system. This is amazing stuff. I learn things here, and get awesome opinions, that I don't find on the numerous political blogs I frequent. I learn a great deal here, and not just about baseball.
I believe we should basically stick to baseball, and make that a rule. But rules are made to be (tastefully with discretion) broken. When a discussion is as thoughtful and intelligent as our 'Health Care Debate', well.... that's one of the amazing things about our BB family... one of the things that sets BB apart.
I believe we can be self-policing and a bit forgiving with off-topic matters.
Sheff was going to pout about his extension and to be honest he won't be worth it. His attitude needed to be off the team.
RJ, similar and he wanted out for personal reasons. Plus he's not the Ace people like to think he is.
Wright couldn't get out of the 6th inning.
There comes a time when you have to either fish or cut bait. It's not like the Yanks are starting from square one, but they needed a personel overhaul. What not get rid of the cancer while working towards your long term goals?
108 b) Those 1B aren't costing hardly anything. What do they have to lose?
c) I wish they would have gone after Leiberthal and Hall too.
d) Cairo, while not the best reserve IF is capable and has Torre's trust.
Apparently you have this vision of "The Perfect GM", well it doesn't exist and your nitpicking is becoming tiresome. I think most "experts" agree Cashman probably did about as well as anybody in baseball this offseason for the short and long term health of the franchise.
Maybe we can hire Earl to help Mats and IQuest with their english.
(a) 6 RHRP + 1 A-Gon = "the best he could with what was out there"
- There were no other prospects to be had - nothing, huh?
(b) True. What did they have to lose if they signed someone? Money? So what.
(c) So you think Cashman could have done better at BUC? A revelation!
(d) How exactly is Cairo capable with a 59 OPS+ after a 64 OPS+ in 2005? And now you're supporting moves because of Torre's trust? Wow. Who are you - Joe Torre Jr.?
As for nitpicking - that's the whole damn off-season (save Moose and Pettitte - who both wanted to be Yankees). And he could have done better in every respect based on the players that were available and signed elsewhere. As for the prospects, I'll repeat: 6 RHRP + 1 A-Gon!? You've got to be f'in kidding me!?
BTW: Cashman is going on vacation next week, as per PeteAbe. Stick a fork in this off-season - what you see is what you get. Bravo!
this family sucks!!
i'm joining the red sox nation!!!!
(murphy hopes all recognize the sarcasm)
(congas rattling in the background)
Schteeve will breath fire and smoke us all to the ground...
debris will come around with arcane rationalizations...
The horror... the horror...
Make a little birdhouse in your soul.
The Cubs haven't discussed Williams, in part because it is unclear whether he will continue playing if he can not re-sign with the Yankees.
"That's a bridge Bernie and I haven't crossed yet," Williams' agent, Scott Boras, said Wednesday. "When we get definition from the Yankees, Bernie will evaluate that and advise me."
Referring to the GM as CASH-man.
Asking for a better "BUC"
constant nitpicking.
I dunno, perhaps I have hat on my menu in the future, but it sure does seem like a match.
".... Last I looked Crazy Uncle MIL-ton can still be had for a decent SP and maybe a prospect. Pull the f'in trigger Cash...".
What a load Rob. (tic toc, tic toc)
128 Hmmm. That reminds me of things I'd likely get deleted for on this thread. I ain't mad at yah, Cap...
Frankly, I like hourglass better.
"I understand by making the move with Randy Johnson, I do put our rotation at risk," Cashman said. "Maybe you could describe it as taking a half-step back to take a greater step forward with more inventory to turn to, either with a trade or with a new Yankee player who can emerge."
So, your call is a good one.... but not a mistake by Cashman, but a calculated gamble.
See, I can deal with the calculated gamble. But when all the trades add up to is: 6 RHRP and 1 A-Gon. That's disgusting.
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