If you're writing a book about this, can I pre-order my copy now?

theres a good reason these yrs arent shown anywhere or talked about

because we werent good

just like the 89-91 stump merril yrs

The one Shea game that I will always remember was OTD, and Billy Martin's first game as Yankees MGR. I was there with my Mom, Dad, and best friend Lou. It was hot as heck that day. I shirt-soaker-sweater kind of day.

2 You're kidding, right? You can compare the 1967-69 Yankees with the Stump Merrill teams, but 1974-75? No way. Those were good teams, not great ones but good ones.

In 1974 I was 11, and Murcer had been my favorite Yankee on those middling Yankee teams.

I was there at Shea to see his ONE Shea homerun that year.

As for Elliot Maddox, darn that drainage ditch in the outfield.

p.s. Wasn't it Band on the Run ...

I remember being at one game where they set off a cannon in the outfield before playing the National Anthem.

The concussion knocked one of the pads off the outfield wall! It also scared the heck out of us because we weren't paying attention at the time and all of a sudden this unexpected boom cracked.

Good times... Good times.

I made it to a few games back then and it was not memorable.

You did not mention the best Shea year ever, the 2000 WS!

4

i wasnt comparing the talent levels. iw as comparing the lack of wins

21-0 turns into 21-24? &^&%!@#@#$! Against a 3 win team?? &^@*&@!@$@$!! Glad I was flying yesterday and didn't see that second half. Way to stink up Tiki's last season, guys.

/rant

Didn't see the '74 '75 Yankees. But they had a nice core there for the '76 through '78 teams.

9 But that makes no sense either. The Yanks went 89-73 (.549) in '74 and 83-77 (.514) in '75.

"Stump's Yanks" were 67-95 (.414) in 1990 - the fewest wins for a Yankee team since 1918* and the worst winning percentage since 1913! - while the '91 version did slightly better at 71-91 (.438).

JL is right - there is no comparison.

*Obviously I'm leaving out '81 because of the strike.

The 74-75 teams win a title?

Did they make the playoffs?

forgive me if i dont look too fondly on the era

Just because they didn't make the post-season doesn't render those seasons as completely write-offs in my book. What makes them especially interesting is that you just rarely even see photographs or images from that time.

I'm actually writing about the '74 AL East for a book on pennant races. But in general, I've always been curious about those two seasons. And again, they were building blocks for the success of 76-78. So they are more interesting than just 68-69 years I think...

i think most fans who remember that time and lived thru it try to forget that they had to play home games in a cesspool/dump like shea

even as a yankee fan i am glad they are destroying that thing

Back in the present:
The Sox have apparently offered $7-8 mil/year in Matsuzaka negotiations. Boras is asking for $15 mil/year. Good start!

It's in the Boston Herald, also reporting that Manny trade talks are getting seriouser.

15 The (scary) question is then, what will the Sox get for Manny, and will that plus Drew (even 120, or 100, games of Drew) make them a better team? The old "superstar-in-prime for 3-helpful-good-pieces is always a bad deal" argument breaks down when the superstar is not in his prime. Manny was great last year, but he's going to be 35 in '07. I think he is past his prime.

12 To each his own. I have many fond memories of 1984-1994, even though the Yanks did not go to the playoffs or once win a title in those years.

A guy I worked with had access to his dad's season tickets in '75, row 16 just off to the left of the screen. I got to go to three games, vs Milwaukee, KC, and Texas. Bill Virdon was still the manager for the ones I saw, although I saw Martin manage the Rangers. The Milwaukee game had Hank Aaron and a very young Robin Yount.

'75 was a weird year. There were so many injuries. I seem to remember one game where all three catchers were in the lineup because of injuries, with Munson and Dempsey in the outfield and Herrmann behind the plate. It was either that, or trot out Kerry Dineen and Terry Whitfield.

I remember attending "Picture Day" at Shea. Between games of a dreary, drizzly doubleheader, fans 14 and under lined up in the concourses to have our pictures taken next to "our favorite Yankees." Of course, we didn't get to choose our "favorites," and my brothers and I were kind of disappointed to get Dick Tidrow and Cecil Upshaw. To make matters worse, we lost the doubleheader.

I believe that the Nettles corked bat game was at Shea. I was there. I recall an awful lot of confusion during the delay, followed by a circulating murmer that Nettles had an illegal bat. I wasn't sure how to record it on my scorecard.

Other memories from the Shea years:
- The audacity of Bobby Murcer signing a contract for $110,000, more than Dimaggio or Mantle had made.
- Maddox bumping Murcer to right field, shattering the "next Mantle" myth.
- Ron Blomberg getting injured again.
- Doc Medich pursuing 20 wins.
- My first real pennant race.
- Losing a heartbreaker to Milwaukee on the second to last day of the season to fall out of the race.
- Bonds and Hunter appearing on an offseason cover of The Sporting News.
- Bonds striking out in key situations and hitting a lot of meaningless home runs.

12 I think it's a shame to judge teams solely on the basis of winning a championship. Many Yankee fans have become so jaded that they view a season as a failure if the Yankees don't win the World Series.

For any of us who grew up rooting for a lousy team, it's just not that way. After the debacle of the late 60's and the slow rebuilding of the early 70's, the '74-'75 teams were actually exciting. The team to compare them with is the 1995 team, the one where the parts finally came together and brought them right to the edge.

I will say I do remember the 1974 team pretty fondly. 1996 and 1978 will always be tops on my list of 40+ years of being a Yankee fan but 1974 ranks higher than any non-pennant year. The Yankees were in a pennant race and even though they lost, it was exciting.The 1974 AL East is one of the unknown great pennant races. Yankees started September in front by 2 1/2 games, went 22-10 but lost when Baltimore went 25-6!! After a decade of also ran status the Yankees were exciting.
Memories: Primarily on how everytime Bobby Murcer came up in a big spot(he didn't hit a home run in Shea until late in the season and was critical of the noise and drainage) Phil Rizzuto would say "Hey Bill White/Frank Messer, wouldn't this be a great spot for Bobby Murcer's first Shea Stadium homerun??" How Bill Virdon put Maddox into center and he was sensational both offensively and defensively. The whole preason dispute with the Yankees trying to sign Dick Williams, Finley refused unless the Yankees compensated with Otto Velez and Scott McGregor. How everybody ripped the "4 pitchers for Chris Chambliss" (including then pitcher Mel Stottlemyre) trade. Chambliss struggled badly for 3 months but turned into areal pro. As for the 4 pitchers, the throwin the Yankees got, Dick Tidrow, was more valuable than any of those guys.
The only time I went to Shea was a disastrous doubleheader in 1975 against Boston. Boston got a run in the top of the 9th and in the bottom of the 9th leadoff hitter Graig Nettles sliced a ball to leftcenter that Rookie of the Year/MVP center fielder Fred Lynn made a tremendous catch. We all looked at each other, stood up and applauded Lynn's performance. The second game was a disaster as Tippy Martinez was called for two balks. A Double header loss. The sole Yankee highlight? A rookie pitcher named Ron Guidry made his debut with 3 good innings.

Maybe I should research these things before relying on my memory. retrosheet shows the July
27th 1975 double header different from my memory. 1) Nettles was second hitter in 9th
2) Tippy Martinez did not have two balks, he was the starting and losing pitcher 3) Guidry's debut was two shutout innings.
Steinbrenner was suspended at the time and Whitey Ford, then a pitching coach, says he would send motivational cassettes for Virdon toplay. They provoked laughter instead. All the publicity over signing Catfish Hunter as the first free agent (NY Times would always refer to him as "$2.8million man" as a paraphrase of the then popular $6 million man tv show. Hunter actually got a lot less money. I was living in Buffalo in 1975 and drove to Cleveland's "mistake on the Lake" to see opening day with the Yankees in 1975. I am still mad Virdon started Doc Medich instead of Hunter. Frank Robinson, DH and the First Black Manager hit a home run in the first inning. The fuss on TV when the Yankees hired Billy Martin as manager at Old Timers day. Another Old Timers day hiring of Martin in three years later would be jaw dropping.

Went to at least 25 games in 1974 for free. Season ticket holders couldn't give them away fast enough. Had the best seats in the house, if you could call any seat at Shea good. They are all so far away. Terrific pennant race.

Last year of Bobby Ray's first stint. Some replacement for The Mick. R yu kidddddden meeeeeee. He hit 10 homers. At the first at Shea. We booed him.

Maddox was the best center fielder the Yankees has, except for Paul Blair. Ruined his leg in the muck and mire. Saw him play third base against the White Sox. Late inning move. Nettles played SS.

April 17, 1974, seems like Yesterday, went to see the Bo Sox and Janks. Did refresh my recollection from Retrosheet about the deatails, though not the effect. One of the best games I ever saw up close and personal.

Not yet Yankees S__cks time, but close. Early season midweek game in the cold didn't draw too many fans of any persuasion-11,517. Boston's faithful in those years came to the weekend series which were sold out and mean affairs. NO love lost.

Sat in an upper deck box directly behind home plate. Went with soon to be ex-wife, a Bo Sox fan, who shared a birthday with Yaz and wore her colors on her head as well as her sleeve.

Pat Dobson pitched into the seventh with a two run lead-2-0. Yaz started off the inning with a homer. The * started screaming at the top of her lungs. Beer and peanuts cascaded from above. Drunken Jankers yelled epithets. One especially drunken sot threatened to throw her off the upper deck if she didn't shut up. She told him what he could do with his beer, his hotdog, and his anger. He backed off.

Sox scored another in seventh to tie the score when Doug Griffin bunted home Cecil Cooper. You can imagine how hard the * was screetching when that run scored. Griffin, btw, came to the Sox in 1970 for Tony C from the Angels. He won the Gold Glove in 1972 at second.

Janks went down in the bottom of the inning 1-2-3. Retrosheet list the batters as Sweet Lou Pinella (always my guy), Bill Sudakis (talk about problems with position players-he played first), and Greg Nettles (not yet a gold glover-made 21 errors at third).

The next inning had its moments. We had settled down. The settled into the game. The beer dried on our jackets or froze, cannot remember. Beniquez doubled. Walt Williams (a wider than tall Jank) made an error in right, hitting Beniquez in the head with the throw which allowed him to go to third. Bernie Carbo drove in Beniquez. Sparky Lyle replaced Dobson. Yaz singled, to the '* great approval, moving Carbo across. Montgomery sac'd in Carbo. Danny Cater hit into an inning ending double play 6-4-3. Phew.

Not much else happened of note, except for one thing. Janks tried to come back in the 9th. With two outs, Munson was on first. Lou moved him to second with a single and was replaced by a pitch runner--Ronny Blomberg (the very same first [Jewish] DH, 10 hrs in 1974, batted .311; all hit, no field, first overall pick in the 1967 free agent draft). Can you imagine having to live through life having to admit that Bob Sheperd called "Nowwww runnnnnning for Pinella, Ron Blomberg, Blomberg running for Pinella"? Sudakis drove in Munson. Nettles grounded out with a Blomberg on second to end the game.

Boston 4. Janks 3. Dobson took the loss (1-2). And the winnnniiiiinnnnnng picha, a guy who went the distance and now lives in Vermont, Don Zimmer's least favorite player, a man imortalized by Dick Lally, the one, the only, Bill "Spaceman" Lee (2-1).

Whaddda game.

15 I read that the Sawx are offering $7-8 million per over 6 and Borras is asking $15 million per over 3. The Sawx are therefore offering $42 - 48 million and Borrras has asked for $45 million. The difference is in years and I think they'll probably and unfortunately work something out.

i never got to see the teams of the shea era, but for the duration of my yankee fandom, i have had a soft spot for bobby murcer.

the 1st big league game i ever saw was at the stadium on bobby murcer day. i always remembered that the yankees lost to the tigers, and that it was bobby murcer day. other than that? not much was retained.

until yesterday, when i plugged "bobby murcer day" into google and found the date of the game. then, i utilized baseball-reference.com's new box score archive to learn more about that day.

i saw willie randolph, alan trammell and lou whitaker. i saw dave winfield and kirk gibson.

of particular interest to me, i saw the guy who would later become my childhood idol hit a triple in his rookie season.

don mattingly.
( http://tinyurl.com/ydgesx )

i recommend checking out the box score archives if you get bored. they are remarkably in-depth. made my day.

23 Or money - six years takes him to age 32 and free agency. Three years would take him take him to age 29 and free agency (a la Godziller). Those three years are a hugantic difference esp if he's Japanese Pedro. Somehow I have a feeling Boras will get a great deal for his client, and shorter seems more likely.

BTW: Who's Papi's agent? His extension is for 4 years at 52 million. Does anyone doubt he would get Lee money in the market? That's 50 million he "left" out there - just so he can perform for a third place team?

Sorry - I couldn't add anything to the Shea discussion. I was born afterwards, have never been, and only driven by on my way to the airport.

20 Stotts retired as a Yankee. The 4 pitchers in the Chambliss trade were Peterson, Kline, Beene and Buskey. The Indians sent Chambliss along with Tidrow and Cecil Upshaw.

Warming up to Chambliss, as well as to Nettles, was just a bit tough, since both had been Yankee killers with Cleveland. Both obviously earned their stripes with key hits and (in Nettles' case) sparkling defense.

My favorites in '74 were Medich and Maddox, as both had emerged out of thin air.

23 That's an odd way to look at it! If the Sox offered six years at $15 ml/year, and Boras wanted three years at $15 mil/year, then I'd say it was 'a matter of years'. Offering the same money for six years that Boras is asking for over three years, that's a matter of money.
I mean, they certainly may still work something out, but they're starting very far apart.

Apparently it's the Giants who are interested in Manny. I don't think they have much that the Red Sox want (mediocre young pitchers? I can't believe Boston would take Noah Lowry plus prospects), so presumably they're discussing a 3-way. Another hitch is that Manny has 5-10 refusal rights and has said (for whatever that's worth) that he doesn't want to go to the NL.

27 It's not so odd really. The Sawx are offering 42-48 and Borras is asking 45. They have to figure out the term of the payment. What's the difference in the Net Present Value of $45 million over 3 and 6 year periods at 8% interest? They are not so far apart I think that they can't get this done.

28 The difference is that if Matsuzaka gets $45 million playing for three years, he can then sign another contract for the same money again -- probably more, actually, but let's say the same -- for another three years. So he'd $90 million in exchange for six years of his services. Which is better than $45 million for those same six years, even in Japanese.

Funny, I'm sure I went to games at Shea, but I don't remember any of them in particular. I was away at school during those years, so I didn't go to many - but I must have seen at least a couple. I might even have old scorecards from that era, so I can check.

Murcer's lousy season at Shea undoubtedly contributed to their trading him, but the chance to get Bobby Bonds must have made a difference as well. I also liked Elliott Maddox a lot, he was a good and classy player. But, in a way, his knee injury was like Aaron Boone's - if not for that, the Yankees might not have felt the need for a center fielder, and might not have flipped Bonds for Rivers and Figueroa.

1975 was also notable as the one time that Lou Piniella didn't hit - under .200 for the year. It turned out that he had an ear ailment, but it took a long time to figure that out.

30 The Winter '76 trades (Bonds for Rivers and Figgy, Medich for Ellis and Randolph) were both key as they were 2-for-1.

The trade with Pittsburgh was especially shrewed, as Medich had already thrown his arm off. So Doc-for-Dock was itself an upgrade, and we got Willie for free.

29 Yup, couldn't have said it better myself. Also, the Red Sox would then get a front line starter (assuming he lives up to billing) for $8 million a year for the next 6 years! That's a phenomenal deal for the Sox considering how much Zito and Schmidt are likely to get. The only way that's not a good deal for the Sox is if he's a total bust. Even if he's a 3 starter, at that price (counting the bid as a sunk cost) its not bad at all. Not to mention, with a yearly salary that low, he's much more valuable as a trade commodity.

The difference in those two offers is huge and it could take awhile for them to settle on something.

28 To further follow up, look at things on a yearly basis in terms of the Sox budget. They take in X and committ Y to payroll. Its a lot easier to spread a cost for them over a larger number of years (and keeps them below farther the luxury tax threshold).

31The Pirates and their fans weren't particularly concerned about giving up Randolph, since they didn't have a place to play him - he was blocked by Rennie Stennett at second. (Seriously.) So they thought they were giving up a 150-inning pitcher for a 250-inning one.

There's a story that a Pittsburgh writer, watching Medich get pounded again, finally threw down his pen in disgust and said, "For crissake, Ellis is a better doctor than this guy!"

32 33 Exactly. Considering Clement and Pavano got 10 mil per season, there's no way Boras is settling for anything lower. 3-4 years at 12-13 seems right, and at a overall price everyone can (and prob will) agree on. Still, 100 mil for 4 years is hilarious but when you're a third place team you have to do what it takes.

Who's Papi's agent again? He'll make half that in those same four years. I wonder how much longer he's all big smiles, esp after they trade Manny to sign Nancy Drew. Good times in Bah-stan. It was fun while it lasted. Shoot, it has me reading their even trashier papers.

28 Exactly which is why they will settle around 4 - 5 years at around 45 million. The Sawx incentive is to lock him up for as long as possible; his incentive is to test the market as often as possible unless he can get A-Rod money (which he can't). Either party's short term best alternative to negotiating this is not particularly attractive. Matsuzaka can reenter the Japanese league and be reposted I think and the Sawx can fill a rotation hole with what's out there and risk the embarrassment of not pulling this off (although they do keep their $51.111 million)

They aren't as far apart as this appears to be is my point, they both have some incentive to make it happen and they will at a relatively easily reached compromise in years.

I can't imagine Boras agreeing to 5 years unless the money is 15M+/year. I see them settling at 4/50M. Which would in essence cost the Red Sox 4/100M. I think Matsuzaka easily gets $15M/yr next year if he goes back to Japan.

36 He can't be reposted. Either Selig rules they didn't negotiate in good faith, and rights go to the next highest bidder, or he returns to Japan for one last year before fullon free agency.

I agree that everybody looks bad if a contract doesn't get done. If you're thinking 4 years at ~12 mil, then I think we're all mostly in agreement. I wonder how long it will take for them to agree though.

But I think Boras has the leverage - for Bens and years. After all he can say DM will go back to Japan for a year, and next year get at least 75 million directly for his client for five years. Not posting fee, let the maket decide, etc. So it doesn't seem to be the years but the dollars.

Matsuzaka would be a free agent next year, not re-posted.

I think the incentives are murky, myself. And the opening bids are pretty damned far apart, but of course that might well be posturing by one or both sides.

37 Great minds...

Boras does have great leverage, if Epstein & Co. believe that Matsuzaka is willing to wait for free agency. I bet he can convince them. (If I knew how, I'd be a wealthy and powerful agent myself.) Four years for $45 mil sounds right to me -- Matsuzaka could get that much for three years next year, but four years now leaves him up for his next contract in, well, four years, so that's just as good as three years starting next year. Okay, that was a convolunted way of saying something obvious.

36 Sorry but you have that all screwed up ws.

If no deal gets done now, Matsuzaka returns to Japan for one more year, then he is an unrestricted free agent. No posting fee is required as he no longer has a contract with the Lions after next season. Which means he would likely get Zito money as a minimum in Winter '07-'08, especially if he decimates Japanese hitters again.

There is a huge difference between $45 million over 3 and $45 million over 6! I'm not saying the deal won't get done, but I will bet you $100 that Boras won't let Matsuzaka sign below $10 million per year -- before that happens they will go back to Japan and come back and get 3 for $15 million (or more) next year and still come out way ahead.

If the Sox really are offering 6 at $6 million per (which I doubt), then they really were just playing spoiler all along because even Theo can't be so stupid as to believe Boras would take that with the money that is being thrown around this year. Boras would laugh in their faces and tell them to call back when they had a real offer to make. :-)

The Herald is saying $7-8 mil/year as the opening offer. They don't say how many years.

Ted Lillly is asking for $9 mil/year, by the way. Ted Lilly. Yo, TEps, I'm Scott Freakin' Boras, not sum chump, so hit me up again when you ready to get serious.

42 No, Matsuzaka isn't an unrestricted free agent after next season. I don't remember how many years he has to have under his belt, but he doesn't complete that time until after the 2008 season starts. So he has to finish that season before he gets full free agency.

45 Every report I've seen says he's a fullon FA after next year - his contract with Seibu is over then.

http://tinyurl.com/yyum2g

According to this article, he becomes a full on free agent in May 2008. If he doesn't sign with Boston, he can either a) become re-posted at the end of 2007 to start 2008 in the US, or b) wait until May 2008, become an unrestricted free agent, and then come to the US mid-season Clemens-style.

Wow, that's news to me, Peter, thanks for the Sporting News link. I was going with reports (e.g. at Wikipedia) that Matsuzaka could just negotiate his market value if he waited one year. Having to wait until May 2008 does change the complexion of the current negotiations.

When Mike Plugh wakes up maybe he can give us the definitive word on this question?

1. .Matzusaka isn't a free agent in Japan after 07 and may have to repost.
2. 42 There may be a big difference between 45,000,000 over 3 years and 6. At a discount rate of 8% I get about 4 million over that term calculating it by hand. (Discounted Cash Flow of about $34.6 million v. 38.6 million) I could be wrong but I think these folks can work that number out especially at the underlying dollar level they are working at already.

From the point of view of conducting a negotiation both party's interests seem to align with signing. I think if they act rationally, they'll get this done.

49 sounds like you are calculating the value of 45 million over 3 years vs 6 years in a vaccuum and solely from the red sox point of view. the difference, as many have tried to state, to the player is not the value of 45 over 3 versus 45 over 6. it's 45 over 3 + whatever he gets for the the next 3 versus 45 over 6. so, very conservatively, 90 over 6 versus 45 over 6.

but i agree there is no way they don't get this done.

50 That's the point: his POV and that of the Sawx have to be taken into account because Matsuzaka is not negotiating in a vacuum. He has a partner - The Sawx, their interest and POV has also to be considered in this.

I agree that's his incentive and it exists as a measure of opportunity cost hence the discount rate rather than a real rate of interest. The form and rate may unfairly discount his opportunity cost as stated over time but I don't have a calculator on me and that was about as complex a formula as I could work out on paper (I'm a little slow).

If the opportunity cost from Matsuzaka's POV is to be included how do you account for the Sawx opportunity cost to balance it? I'm sure that it exists and perhaps at a rate similar to Matsuzaka's yet it appears difficult to calculate, (although they may have tipped us off with the $51.1 million bid). It seemed fair to present it that way and simplest.