I know lots of folks on the Banter and elsewhere have no use for Chass, but that last line of his is so true:

"What the Red Sox have done is forfeit their right to complain ever again about economic moves the Yankees make."

Amen.

1 Amen indeed.

I'm with Sherman on this -- I really believe we need to go after a short-term stopgap and plan on getting two out of the Three Amigos (Hughes, Clippard, Sanchez) into the rotation by 2008. Overspending on free agent pitching hasn't worked well for anyone lately.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Yanks take a flyer on Mulder.

Chass uses a ouija board. It's only dumb luck when he writes something true.

2 How about Kei Igawa for a two year contract? He's been posted. Then Koji Uehara, who's a free agent next year (this info courtesy of Mike Plugh), and as you say the harvest of some of the farm arms, and the Yanks have a good rotation at a cut-rate price.

re: the Chassticle: The Red Sox won't forfeit their right to complain about Yankees spending until they sign Matsuzaka.
I expect the Sox to close the deal, but will not be surprised if they fail to.

As much as I would have enjoyed watching Matsuzaka pitching for the Yanks, I'm relieved this dragged-out WBC (Wild Bidding Classic) is over.

I planned this just right:

Announcing the launch of Uehara Watch:

www.ueharawatch.blogspot.com

And Chassticle is wrong again with this assessment of Boston's winning bid:

"Mind boggling perhaps, but not evil. Stunning perhaps, but not evil. Incredulous maybe, but not evil. Obscene, as an executive of another club said, but not evil."

Mind boggling? Not if you saw it coming.
Incredulous? The third place Red Sox "showing the money" to block a coveted starter from negotiating with the Yanks? What's incredulous about that?
Obscene? How so?

Boston's winning bid was predictable, and shrewd. It was a big league move, well, perhaps a little bush league if they don't intend to sign Matsuzaka, but I think they do, and would be wise to.

Poor Chassticle wanted to blast the Yanks for buying Matsuzaka so badly he could taste it.

Is there any chance that the Lions don't take the money?

It's all going to go down according to plan, until it hits Boras. That will be the only snag in the process. If Boras is a jackass, and holds out for Oswaly money, Epstein is going to have to pay Matsuzaka 120 million over 5 years. That would mean 24 million per.

It is obscene Sliced Bread. That is A-Rod money for a player that contributes to his team once a week. Hideously obscene.

6 I agree. Assuming they sign him, they have an instant market in Japan. The winning-est team in all of baseball (From reading all of these articles, I'm pretty sure that it's the Red Sox) then is able to get endless streams of cash flowing straight from the East to West. Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't go against salary cap either. The return would not be so great on a team like ours due to the fact that we've already opened the door to that market.

9 There's only so much money from this market. The Yankees, Mariners, and White Sox all have high profile Japanese players. The Red Sox have one of the 3 highest profile players in the bunch now, but there isn't an endless supply of cash. It's not like everyone will suddenly share in $10 million a year in revenue. If there's $10 million it will be divided between many teams and the league.

Nothing, I repeat, nothing will make up for the posting fee. It will be a giant loss on their ledger. That's cool if you are doing it to win a championship, but is there anyone here who believes this move makes the Sox better than the Yankees?

I think this makes Boston an

"Uberteam"

as Theo says

A Rod money for an unproven guy.

This is not Johan Santana they are giving almost 22mill a yr for here. This is an unproven foreign pitcher with a lot of wear on his 26 yr old arm.

Coming from a team that didnt want to pay Pedro a few million extra because he had wear.

And they're going to have to pay for
2 of's
2b
ss
bullpen
and closer

Going to be expensive in Sox Nation this year. Get ready for 19$ beers at Fenway.

8 Yes, of course the money in professional sports is obscene to those of us who can hardly comprehend the amount of money that gets thrown around, but I think that's a different discussion.

Going into the Matsuzaka sweepstakes, the bar was reportedly set at $30 million dollars.
In that context, Boston's $40-whatever million dollar bid was not "offensive" or "repulsive," it was highly competitive.

What Matsuzaka will be paid can be considered obscene, offensive, repulsive, etc., but I don't think that's what Chass was talking about.

My bet is the Sox lowball Matsusaka, figuring if Boras balks they've at least stopped the Yankees and if they get him at say 4 years/$40 mil. (plus the $38 mil.), that's not too far out of line for an ace, especially since the $38 doesn't count for the "Yankees tax".

10 All I'm saying is that they will see more from it than we would.

I realize Matsuzaka has pitched in some big spots and is known as a big-game pitcher, but can you imagine the pressure that is going to be on the guy if the rumors of a $40 million-plus posting fee are true? Not to mention his actual contract. So far Nomo has had the most success of the Japanese pitchers, and in his prime he wasn't worth anywhere close to this. From what I've seen of him, I think he'll do pretty well, but I don't know that he'll be better than Wang. It'll be interesting, that's for sure.

16 Believe me, Matsuzaka doesn't understand the meaning of the word pressure. He is otherwordly.

6 It's shrewd for a few reasons:

1) Opening East market as noted above, even if they don't sign him, it increases awareness of the Sux 'brand'.
2) If they don't sign him, they can always blame Boras.
3) If they don't sign him, they've driven up his market price for other teams (i.e., Yankees) next year.

Frankly, I'd be very surprised if they do sign him. And if if they sign him for five years at $60 million, that's a lot of dough. Even if he turns out to be the next Pedro, that's a ton of risk.

And weird, I feel better about this than I did about Beckett last year. We know how that turned out, at least initially.

The Sux just blew the best argument they have for always finishing second to the Yanks. And took a huge risk to do it. Now let them sign Drew.

If the Sux think that have to make moves like this to compete, I feel very good about the future of this rivalry.

Today's Headline shoulda been:
Don't Believe The Hype

The recent influx of big name Asian pitchers into The Majors have had the shelf life of sushi.

Nomo
Hideki Irabu
Chan Ho Park
Byung Hyun Kim
Kaz Ishii
Jae Seo
Sun Woo Kim

These guys seemed to start strong and acclimate to the Bigs well, but then in a couple of years, they just crash and burn. I wouldn't be surprised in Wang goes the same way in a year or two.

I'm not worried about Matuzaka as a possible Red Sox. Hopefully they sign him to a 10 year deal.

The media and Sox fans no longer can cry foul about Yankee spending in comparison to Boston. Whoop-de-friggin-doo.

I personally liked it much better when they were flailing for excuses for losing year after year. After 2004 and now this, they have beaten the Yanks on the field and now off it. Tell a person in winter 2003 that the Red Sox came back from 0-3 against the Yanks in the ALCS, swept the Series, and outbid the Yanks in a pure pissing contest for a player the Yanks desperately needed and the person would have laughed in your face. Those were different times.

As far as silver linings go, this one ain't cutting it for me.

20 It goes against everything they've been saying. They've blown their whole "stratergy", just to compete better with the Yankees.

If it goes well, they will compete, no doubt. But if he's merely a #2 or #3, I don't think they will.

It's a big risk, and for that I feel good as a Yankee fan. The Beckett trade was less of a risk, and they blew that one. The Mirabelli and Arroyo trades were even less risky, and they blew those too. If anything I see a club in Boston that is flailing in their plan and their execution.

Basically they've now tried everything to compete the last three years. Now they're trying even bigger spending. Where can they go next?

They're a third place team, with alot of holes. Sure a #1 pitcher helps, but only if he ends up being that. Even then, they still have alot of work to do - just to hang with Toronto.

21 All those moves they "blew" still have some time to pan out. But I hope you're right and they all go down in flames.

But I think there is a difference in the moves that both teams have made recently. The Red Sox made smart moves (at least I thought they were smart at the time) that didn't work (yet). The Yanks made idiotic moves (signing Womack, Pavano, and Wright instead of Beltran) that immediately proved disastrous. (Cashman seems to have righted the ship a bit since then though.)

I hope this is another "smart" move that crashes and burns.

Lots of folks signing on to the Matsuzaka #1 bandwagon but for those of us who enjoy curses and wish them on the Dread Sawks in the spirit of love and kinship, let us point out a couple things to whet the appetite for a principle diversion of Yankee fans, I speak of disaster-watching, Red Sox style.

It's been a while since I lived in the land of the rising sun, but I seem to recall baseball seasons lasting about 132 games or so. Don't forget the curfews -- the boys need to be in bed by 12:00, 1;30 at the latest. I also seem to recall pitchers going on 5 or 6 day rotations. Not to mention that your principle opponents are an hour or so away; no more than a half dozen or so in each league -- so learning how to travel well is not part of the process.

More than all that I recall the almost diabolical pleasure Japanese take in the concept of practice and logging massive hours devoted to such. Nothing whets the Japanese competitive instincts like practice. All of this is a perfect storm way of saying that along about the end of August, or even earlier for that matter, you may see the young Matsuzaka coming up a little worse for wear. All's the pity.

Let me also throw in here the cultural riddle of Byung Hyun Kim whose ghost still lingers sullenly in the ole' Fenway clubhouse still projecting a faint deer like image under the klieg lights. He who last bore the brunt of screaming rascist Boston and just flat out snapped, saluting the mob with the well deserved finger.

Make no mistake, this is not the nitwit cherub Johnny Popplearm strolling out to the mound to the cheers of the fenway faithful -- Why armbands never caught on with these nitwits, I'll never figure out. But the point is, it will be something for Matsuzaka to withstand the bawling scrutiny of Red Sawks nation and there is NOTHING, NO ONE, NADA, ZIP, MATTAKUNASHI here in Boston to support him outside of his own clique of hangers-on that he will bring with him -- and who, may I add, will be properly aghast at Sawks ball. I pray Manny stays. Please God, pretty please.

New York is a suitable stage for success, Boston is trash strewn city plaza of liberal angst and despair that inside of three months will devour its young. They don't mean to be knuckle-dragging slack jawed goons, it's just the way they are.

So here's lookin' at you kid. Gyroballs Away!

Oh, I reserve the right to major revisions to the above, should the kid wind up in pinstripes.

ESPN.com has this to say (unrelated):

Believe it or not, teams are contacting the Yankees about trading for right-hander Carl Pavano; the Rockies are one club that might have interest if the Yankees paid a portion of the $21 million that Pavano is owed over the next two seasons.

The Yankees, naturally, say they won't give Pavano away; their public position is that they want him to get healthy and be productive. Still, it's difficult to imagine the Yankees rejecting even a mediocre offer for a pitcher who has been a severe disappointment.

One rotation possibility that the Yankees might consider, with or without Pavano: Right-hander Scott Proctor, who was one of the team's best relievers last season.

22 Mirabelli is a free agent - that trade blew. True, Pena could work out, but he'll more than likely strike out. If they sign Drew, that's further indication that they have little faith in Pena. Unless, they're going to trade Crisp or Manny. Still, not looking like much of a master plan for that outfield.

Beckett could work out better, but that is now looking like a terrible trade, esp. that they followed up with an unnecessary extension. They need a SS and their future SS just won the ROY in the NL. What's worse is they gave up a young, and cheap, 4th or 5th starter too. That trade is much closer to "blew" than to a toss-up.

No matter what contract they sign DM to, it will be overpriced, even if he's the best pitcher in the game. If this shows Henry's willingness to dig into his billionairre pockets, they're now a much different organization. And as we seen previously, an organization that's willing to spend, quickly loses focus of what it takes to win. The Sux were a third place team, the last I looked. A #1 helps, if he's that, but they still have alot of work to do. Hopefully, it involves trading Manny.

Question 1: If the Yankees changed Proctor back to a starter, could they fill the spot in the pen?

Question 2: If the Yankees traded Pavano, could they fill the spot on the DL?

6 For that matter, is it too much to ask that a print journalist not go out of their way to misuse words?

"Is there anything evil about what the Red Sox have done...Incredulous maybe, but not evil."

Sorry, but the bid is not incredulous. The bid might be incredible, and Chass might have been incredulous when he heard about it. But the bid can't be incredulous.

I also heard that another pitcher from Japan was unworldy. He was a God. Unflappable. A fastball that shook hitters. The Nolan Ryan of Japan.

His name was Irabu.

Japanese for "Fat Pussy Toad".

Just saying. Beware.

24

At least give credit to where you scooped that from. Fox Sports.

I don't think DM being compared to any previous Japanese league pitcher is remotely fair or accurate. As Mike P. has pointed out many times, we are talking about a different class of pitcher here. Whether or not this deal works our for the Sox will not be a matter of if DM succeeds, he will, make no mistake. Its a matter if he can adjust enough, if he is worth all that money, and, more importantly, if the rest of the team pans out...

26 Thanks for making me shoot diet pepsi out my nose.

I haven't changed my opinion that Matsuzaka will be a top pitcher. This is not only because he looked so good in video from Japan, on international TV making US hitters look foolish in the WBC, and of cours his stats. It's also because the conversation on elite, proven, young starting pitchers is limited to around single digits. Sure, Verlander and Liriano may join their ranks soon, but I don't count either of them as "proven," not yet. I also won't bite on the obvious projection techiques being used by other fans here, who want him to be like Irabu just because our team didn't get him.

The truth of the matter is, if Matsuzaka signs, the Red Sox have thrown a ton of money at one player, enough money that it might cripple their franchise even if Matsuzaka turns into an MLB ace.

Ranking my excitement for remaining free agent pitchers, on a scale of 1-42:

Zito 30
Schmidt 25
Lilly 20
Pettite 19
Mulder 15
Eaton 12
Clemens -2

New York is a suitable stage for success, Boston is trash strewn city plaza of liberal angst and despair that inside of three months will devour its young. They don't mean to be knuckle-dragging slack jawed goons, it's just the way they are.

spoken like a true nitwit... which fans are booing their MVP again? and enough with the racism stuff... seriously, most of you guys here are baseball smart and thats why i read here but a number of you are extremely childish and ignorant.

29 Easy there, tiger. Just a little clerical error. 24 was foxsports.com, not ESPN.com.

I like this theory I saw on Abraham's blog about how the Yankees exaggerated the interest in Matsuzaka to drive up the bidding price but actually bid reasonably. So whichever team ends up with him will have less available resource for other areas in need. May not be true, it's still a nice idea to hear.

19 The guys you mentioned had the younger part of their career back in Asia, Wang was actually trained and developed by the Yankees when he turned 20. And Wang doesn't have an Asian size, he's bigger than Jeter which should help.

Speaking of which, I find it interesting how many reports all mentioned how the Red Sox will now be able to open its Asian market (assuming they do sign Matsuzaka). The so-called Asian market is consist of Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. Besides Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese, no one else in Asia gives a damn about baseball.

Nowadays, Asian market is no longer a combined market, Koreans have their pitchers, Taiwanese have Wang and Guo, Japanese also have many players including our classic Matsui. Say if the Yankees landed Matsuzaka, that will be one very large Japanese market, but since Matsuzaka is more likely to end up in Boston, the market doesn't add up as large. No matter what, it's the Japanese market they are looking at, not the whole Asian market...I am just saying.

24 " Believe it or not, teams are contacting the Yankees about trading for right-hander Carl Pavano. "...Almost music to my ears. But you are right, that's one big spot to fill on the DL.

I believe (if the Sox did win the bid) that they will sign DM. Blocking a player is one thing, but using the Japanese/MLB relationship to do so is another. And it would only be for a year.

To win the bid, and NOT sign him, would give the Sox a distinctly bad 'blackeye' with MLB, the Japanese and the fans.

I was leary about the Yankees paying 16+ mil/year for an unknown. I'm happy to see the Sox spend $80+ mil on this guy. They are overpaying... plain and simple.

OK.... lets ALL put our money where our mouth is. Everyone weigh in on what the Sox end up with. Lets hear 2 things.... dollars and years.

I say: 4 years/$50 million (with a team option for year 5 at $15mil)

24 34 Pavano's shoes are large. Maybe Pedro? But only if the Mets pick up a bunch of his salary; I don't want to see the Yankees overpay to fill that DL spot.

35 I say: they don't sign him. (Do I have to say what they offer if I think they'll fail to sign him?)

30 31 Exactly. The question is, by how much does DM close the gap between the the Sox and the Yanks? The best pitcher in MLB last year was Santana. By one measure (WARP1) he was worth 10.6 wins last year; by another (VORP) he was worth about 8 wins.

Is Matsuzaka going to be that good? Maybe, but he'll have to be Santana's equal to be the sole difference-maker between the two teams. For the moment, he's just another piece of the puzzle.

23 As a liberal Yankee fan who lived in Boston for 5 years, I'd have to say that remark about NYC vs Boston is impolite at best and insulting at worst. In any case, chill out jayd. Why make this personal or political? Why compare the two cities at all?

34 Speaking of Asian markets, I think MLB baseball rights in Japan are $46 million a year, but divided by all team equally. That's what, less than two million per team?

There's only so much merchanidise to be sold, and it's not in the tens of millions.

Simply, there's an Asian market. But it's where you buy miso and nori, not make dollars.

34 I should make it clear that it wasn't Abraham who said that, it was a comment made on his blog.

35 Boras is going to be looking for big bucks. He might be setting the market here vis a vis Zito (who is also his client). So I think he wants at least Oswalt-type money and a 3-year deal that lets DM become a free agent at the end, with no arbitration, (a la Matsui's deal with the Yanks). DM will be just 29 then, after all. So, if the Sox sign DM, I think it will be for 3 years/$51 million or thereabouts.

That said, if no deal is reached, I won't be surprised either.

38 I think there's a bigger Japanese market than miso and nori, but generally I agree with your idea even if there will be more ads coming in from Japan. Some amount will end up like taxi fairs for those billionaires.

40 Man, how rich is Boras? He seems to be the agent with the most high-profile players.

I think Torre will work the bullpen hard in an effort to fill Pavano's spot on the DL.

How come we never talk about ARod here?

I say we make a big push for Nomar. I think he would LOVE to help the Yanks beat the Sox. He's a righty, still a .300BA guy, can play maybe 80 games at first, and can also be a utility IF'er in a pinch.

I don't think he will command big bucks, and if he stays 'relatively' healthy, he will be a good bang for the buck.

FA Catchers - Career
----------------------------------------
Robert Fisk - 32 - .743
----------------------------------------
Rod Barajas - 31 - 3,200,000
1621 58 225 .240 .282 .410 ---> .692
----------------------------------------
Paul Bako -34 - 700,000
1631 14 143 .236 .308 .321 ---> .629
----------------------------------------
Bengie Molina - 32 - 4,500,000
2917 84 419 .275 .310 .407 ---> .717
----------------------------------------
Gregg Zaun - 35 - 1,000,000
2549 62 323 .253 .345 .385 ---> .730
----------------------------------------
Todd Pratt - 39 - 850,000
1612 49 224 .251 .344 .398 ---> .742
----------------------------------------
And Mike Piazza (numbers not necessary)

8 wrote: "A-Rod money for a player that contributes to his team once a week." He raises an old debate, how starting pitchers compare in value to position players.

I would think an outstanding SP was more valuable, especially because he can pitch a larger percent of the post season games. Also, top-notch SPs are in short supply among free agents.

They're also in short supply on the Yanks. The Yanks have 7 or 8 position players who have a good chance to be selected for the 2007 All Star game. They have 1 SP with a good chance to be an all-star.

For those who don't constantly refresh Deadspin like I do... the most hilarious auction in MLB.com history, presented without further comment:

http://tinyurl.com/y636am

A "2006 Game Used Carl Pavano hat."

"If the Yankees traded Pavano, could they fill the spot on the DL?"

Nice one.

44 "How come we never talk about ARod here?"

Man, if there's one thing I miss about baseball season, it's the endless chatter about why A-Rod isn't batting .865 and why he hasn't been able to find a cure for cancer, and why Jesus had to redeem us from our sins because A-Rod couldn't. Those were some good times.

The baseball was OK, too.

46 Which one of his 6 games did it come from?

44 You leave out that Fick is decidely on the downslope of his career after having peaked early. The last time he imporved over the previous season was in 2001 - his peak age 27 year. I'd rather Zaun since he's already an AL East guy (knows the pitchers and hitters) and will produce similarly even as he suprised last year.

As for Nomah, I'm drinking if we understand he'll only play 100 games, if that, and if Duncan or Sardinha are given a shot at some playing time when he goes down.

37
I lived my first 19 years in LI, NY, and the next 33 years in NH, 70 miles N. of Boston. While I still consider myself a 'NYer', Boston has been 'my city' most of my adult life. I will say this:

Boston is a big Town, over crowded, with the worst roads and traffic in the country. It is also a great little city, full of culture, history, great medicine and education. It has it's racist history, but racism is really very common everywhere.

NY is NY, and will always be the #1 city in the US. Certainly, it's ethnic diversity is vast. But Boston is a great city too. It's only problem (aside from traffic) is it's citizens needs to compete/compare themselves/their city with NY.

Red Sox fans are truly nuts. I have tried for years to have a quasi-intellectual baseball discussion with them... but its impossible.

Insult Rex Sox fans if you must, as I can only think that as a group, they must have tiny penises.

But Boston is cool. I'm a NYer who is proud to be part of the Boston area.

51 I like how you pointed out that Boston Red Sox is not all of Boston. It's just like New York Yankees is not all of NYC although it is definitely one huge part that helps to define NYC but it's not all there is.

46 Cliff also posted that link a few days back in his comment. I was literally rolling on the floor laughing my guts out.

49 After an exhaustive search, I discovered that Carl Pavano pitched one inning in a Yankees uniform in 2006.

http://tinyurl.com/y36c4e

March 28, 2006. According to the recap, he managed to retire Bobby Abreu on a ground ball during which he stumbled and fell while throwing to first. He then gave up a solo home run to Chase Utley before retiring Pat Burrel and Mike Lieberthal on groundouts.

So I guess that makes the hat in the auction 46 a rare piece of memorabilia.

51 Well said. I have met some Red Sox fans who can and do intelligently converse about baseball, but they are rare in my experience.

53 Wait - was that when he injured his buttocks? That alone will certainly make the winning bid worthwhile - owning a true piece of Yankee history!

53 If so, they'd say that. My guess is that it's from one of those games where he sat on the bench, but wasn't active and so had no chance of playing. A liberal interpretation of "game used" - but there's money to be made!

45 It used to be a rule of thumb that you shouldn't trade an everyday player for a pitcher. The idea that "pitching wins championships" certainly has some merit, but I think it's been way overblown.

Wow, there most certainly is money to be made. They want $3500 as an opening bid for a signed, game used Wang hat, which actually does look game used.

51 I went to my first game in Fenway a year ago. I sat in the center field bleachers, and while I didn't come dressed in Yankee regalia, I certainly didn't hide my sympathies, either. I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised. The fans around me were passionately partisan, sure, but they were...baseball fans, and pretty soon we were just baseball fans talking to each other. I didn't get a hard time from anyone.

By the way, that game was Schilling's debut as the Red Sox closer, and I thought that Alex Rodriguez won it with a ninth-inning homer off him. But I must be mistaken, Rodriguez obviously couldn't have shown that much clutchitudeness.

31 Matsuzaka didn't pitch against the United States in the World Baseball Classic. That was Uehara. Matsuzaka pitched against Taipei, Mexico, and Cuba.

57 Pavano's "Game used hat" was actually used trying to pick up chicks in his Porsche. "Man, that guy's got GAME!"

Boston didnt make this offer not to sign him. He's as good as signed. Now is he worth 20+ a yr? Who knows.

I guess we'll find out.

Zaun would be a good backup.

And A Rod did hit that clutch home run off Schilling in Boston.

The guy only won the MVP that yr.

53 Wasn't that spring training though? I thought the auction said regular season?

If its the buttocks hat, I almost want to bid on it. That'd be hilarious to show my grandkids someday.

61 Well, if he did hit it, then it must not have been clutch, right? 'Cause everyone knows he only won the MVP by padding his stats with useless hits...

I am disappointed that George doesn't have a scathing comment about the Red Sox's bid on Matsuzaka.

44 I would love the Yankees to sign Nomar. He is injury prone, but his bat still rocks. He and Giambi can trade off playing 1st.

Go Emmitt! Kick Mario's butt.

63 Who said we don't talk about Arod here?

65 I tried not to. I just couldn't resist one.

66 Pretty much not a day goes by without it . . . =)

So Brandon Webb wins the NL Cy Young. With 16 wins. I don't know what to say, I'm so underwhelmed.

Statement from Steinbrenner:

Daisuke Matsuzaka is going to be a fine addition to Major League Baseball, and a source of pride to his nation.
Regretfully, the New York Yankees could not submit the winning bid to negotiate for his services due to the financial burden of our commitment to the third baseman.

68

So he had only 16 wins?

Wins are so dependent on aspects the pitcher has NO control over (run support as an example).

Take a look at his VORP, ERA, Opp. BA, and then come back and say he didn't deserve it.

69 You almost had me for a minute.

69 Another Sliced classic!

70 Or take a look at last year's AL Cy Young voting, which rated Colon better than Santana because Colon had more wins. Mindboggling.

Statement from Joe Torre:

I was very excited about the chance to manage Daisuke Matsuzaka. From what I've seen of him, he's destined to be a champion. Unfortunately, my number 8 hitter costs too much.

Statement from Derek Jeter:

Daisuke Matsuzaka is the kind of pitcher any team would be lucky to have. Don't do drugs, hug your mom, play to win, and instead of booing certain players try hostile indifference.

65, 66, definitely 67, and good ol' 69

Ahhh! Nuthin' like the feeling of knowing sure money is coming your when you bet on how many days people will talk about A-Rod during the off-season. Thanks for everything, guys; Costco here I come! >;)

73 Tell Mr. Torre he's welcome to come along if he needs to. Excellent prices on corner infielders, I hear.

Try this one on for size: Daisuke Meh' suzaka

75 Matsubeckett?

76 Matsudahell?

Tony DeMarco at NBC says the Red Sox are sending the Yankees a signal:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15708078/

"Prepare to open your wallet." He thinks the Sox will sign Matsuzaka, come hell or highwater. Because the Red Sox came in third in the AL East, 11 games behind the Yanks and one game behind the Jays, and they don't want that to happen again.

78 Yep. Next time they'll finish behind Cleveland. Alert Capital One.

71 Same here, Sliced almost had me too. But then I realized it's too good to be true.

79 Good one!

Over at Lohud, Spring training schedules were just listed.

The Old Yanks would have responded with a 90 mill offer for Zito.

The Cashman lead Yanks will be smarter.

Like when he waited out Damon. Waited out Abreu. Held onto every good prospect. We're in good hands.

The new Evil Empire can keep signing JD Drew types.

Well, it's official. Boston's the winner. They have until Dec. 15 to sign him.

They didn't give the amount bid.

That was an announcement that totally didn't take long to make...

It's funny, I thought they had to disclose the winning bid but it didn't happen.

MSNBC.com is reporting $51.1 million.

85 So is Forbes.com.

51.1 million. If the deal comes through, it's really going to make Matsuzaka's Japanese team some good.

51.1. Then add what, 45 more for three years? Heck, call it 40.

91 million bucks for three years. Which works out to....

Yanks get him when he's 29 years old. Thanks Sox!

Yeah, Peter Abraham has the same figure. I don't think there is anyway this deal can stay away from 100 million now, at least unless there is some nonsense afoot. The Sox will want at least 4 years I bet, and Boras will want a minimum of 10/per, but more likely at least 12/, which puts it at 99 million for 4 years, which is almost 25 million per year!!! I know that half of that doesn't count towards the salary cap, but its still money paid in the name of DM...

86 Holy crap!

If it's true that the Mets were in 2nd place with a bid of $38 million, Boston paid a lot more than they had to. :-D

You would think the Red Sox were owned by the same guy who owns Chelsea. $51.1 million for a transfer, and they still have to negotiate a contract with one of the most infamous agents in sports...lmao.

I gotta say, that $51.1 million figure cracks me up. It's like those people on eBay who bid $51.01, so they'll be the high bid, if only by one cent.

I really, really hope Cash "leaked" that the Yanks will bid 50 million.

Man... baseball fans in this house are in shock. That is just a-trocious money, for all the reasons already mentioned.

91 I too have been laughing pretty steadily since I saw the headline.

92 Hey, I had the same thought, hence that .1 million. Cashman is almost the equivalent of superman to me nowadays. Or perhaps, they just found some pocket change and figured, "what the heck, might as well throw it in."

Boras should eat this up. No way he shoud settle for less than $20/year. If the Red Sox are willing to pay $51 just to talk, Boras should take that as a statement that he UNDERVALUED Matz. Remember, Matsusaka has seen no money yet. If his team gets $51 million to let him go, that should be a statement of how valuable he is which should mandate more money for his contract - assuming the Sox plan on negotiating in good faith.

$51.1!!! I'm blown away. Anyone still thinks the Red Sox aren't serious about signing Matsuzaka? The Red Sox are definitely playing hard ball. Finally, Henry acting like the billionaire that he is! The Lions must be walking on cloud 9.

What madman is the Sox organization thought:
1) It would take 50 mil to win the bid?
2) The guy is worth well over $20 mil/year?

This is sick shit. Theo is gonna wrap this guy is bubblewrap every second he isn't on the mound.

Unbelievable. There is something wrong with this process.While it may not be considered payroll, Theo is gonna make up the 80 mil between 'team costs' pretty quickly.

I hate to root against DM... but the Sox taking it on the chin for $100 mil is just too tempting.

I would be thrilled if we could dump Pavano for a living human being.

98 Yep, the Red Sox thought exactly that. I don't know why you and so many people here expressed their doubts about the Red Sox being serious about their bid and signing Matsuzaka. I bet all the the other teams were just as serious. I certainly was serious when I said that I wanted the Yankees to toss in every extra penny they could save into the bidding process.

All the young aces and/or no. 2 pitchers have been locked up by their teams for the next few years. Teams are desperate for quality pitching. Matsuzaka is young and good. If you can't get him, it is scrambling for the scraps and hoping like Cashman is doing acquiring those pitching prospects.

Simone, why does the huge bid convince you that they're really serious about signing him, instead of convincing you that they're really serious about preventing anyone else from signing him?

101 I stated clearly in 100 and on the previous post why it is obvious that the Red Sox and the other teams that bid on Matsuzaka were serious.

You and others need to your Yankee blinders aside and take a hard long look at the situation with an attempt at objectivity. There is no way anyone who looked at the situation objectively could conclude that any of these teams entered a bid to do anything, but sign Matsuzaka. However, I'll try again:

1. All the young aces and/or no. 2 pitchers have been locked up by their teams for the next few years. Teams are desperate for quality pitching. Matsuzaka is young and good. If you can't get him, it is scrambling for the scraps and hoping like Cashman is doing acquiring those pitching prospects.

2. There is a TONS of money to be made in the Japanese market by signing Matsuzaka. The bid money and profit will be earned in a couple years in television, advertising, Japanese tourism. Just ask the Yankees.

3. A team that wins the bid and doesn't negotiate with Matsuzaka in good faith will lose face and damage their reputation in Japan. Ask Mike Plugh about Japanese culture. Americans may dismiss this aspect of this situation, but I have no doubt that the owners and teams who have officials in Japan fully understand this fact and went into the eyes wide open.

101 Ditto. They may well sign him but with no competition at this point they won't have to reach any higher than they perceive Boras's leverage and their need to be. If they don't sign him they don't spent $51 million, that is some incentive to sit tight and not go above what they believe the market to be.

I imagine they'd love to have him. I doubt they'll suborn the bidding process by screwing with him but it's not like there's a market they're bidding in. It's a closed process at this point with no outsiders to bid up the price. Boras can decide to wait; we know he has the stones for that. What about his client?

103 But they are bidding in a market -- the free agent market that will open up to Matzu next season. A market that will more than likely deliver him to the Yankees, and at a much better price than he will go for this year.

The Sox cannot allow that to happen. And Boros knows it.

Moving on from Matsuzaka, where are the Yankees going to find another starting pitcher after signing Mussina? Will they go after Zito? Thoughts.

Simone 102, that is utterly unresponsive.

You said this:

"$51.1!!! I'm blown away. Anyone still thinks the Red Sox aren't serious about signing Matsuzaka?"

That means you think the very large bid is especially convincing. I asked why the size of the bid is convincing; you seem to have no answer whatsoever.

104 Yeah, I understand that, that's Boras's leverage. Actually in this he has two points of leverage I think: Next year and the Sawx need this year. Like any negotiation that only goes so far.

As I said, I don't expect that the Sawx will suborn the process and that they will make a good faith effort to sign him. Whether or not that happens is still open to conjecture however.

104 Huh?
Why at a much better price than this year? If the Red Sox can land him by spending $X this year, then we know for sure they can prevent the Yanks from getting him for less than $X next year.

105 I'm thinking they won't go for Zito. My gut feeling is that Cash has a trade in the works -- that's why he's been stockpiling the young arms.

For the record: $51.1 million in posting fee is like $36.5 million in salary, as far as the Red Sox are concerned, because on a $36.5 mil salary they'd have to add 40% luxury tax (which brings it to 51.1). So if they're looking at a five year contract, the fee is equivalent to $7.2 million per year that the team is paying and the player isn't getting (and Boras isn't getting any piece of!).

That's why I'm skeptical.

I'm not saying it can't happen, I can imagine now how a deal could be brokered, but it's an awful lot of money for a player and an agent to 'leave on the table', which is what they'll be doing.

106 RIY Trust me, the game isn't worth the bullet on that one. No offenses Simone but you have been pretty unresponsive when called on these things lately. I'm still waiting for you to explain why you still claim the Yankees paid Sheffield $13 million when they exercised their option to extend his contract by one year.

And by the way I think a great big long line needs to form outside the office of one Mr. Buster Olney who had the stones to break this story last week and then dangle in the wind while his so called buddies in the 4th Estate let him dangle in the wind. Good for you Buster! Premature my ass. I know Mr. Rob Gee, a true fan is Buster O fan, is raising one in his honor right about now. I just did.

Hm, yeah. Is Buster smirking, or is he breathing a big sigh of relief?

110 "as I just did", hence the typos I guess. Ouch!

Who's Rob Gee?

All I know is that the supposedly huge Japanese market is not so big. MLB rights are at 46 million a year, which is evenly split among all the teams. So no TV rights, unless the Sux want to sell NESN content apart from the games. But considering the games are inexpensive (<2 mil per team), how much more is NESN worth?

Otherwise, that's alot of merchanidise that needs to be sold to recoup 51 million. Wow. I'd be really really shocked if he signs. A long term contract is even riskier. A short-term contract and it's a wasted investment. The bid is smelling more and more like something done to be sure to beat everyone else, more than a competitive reading of the market demand. We shall see.

But, Buster does rock.

106 110 To cap off my unresponsiveness according to both of you: Whatever. My opinions are not required to meet your or anyone else standards. Last time I checked you weren't the moderator or owner of this blog. You have a problem with my opinions just ignore them and I'll do the same with your opinion. The world won't come to an end.

114 Don't take it so personally. People disagree with you. Stick to your guns or agree to disagree or find common ground. I think you're wrong based on the size of the Japanese market, but you aren't the first to think that and even I thought so until I looked up the facts. The point of the blog is discussion of all things Yankees, and sometimes other stuff. If you disagree with reactions to what you've said, say so. There's no harm in that. Just as folks can disagree with you. Have fun with it!

113 That's essentially what Mike Plugh was saying. The market is not as valuable as some people are saying, and newcomers will have to scrap for a share. I have no idea, myself, so I tend to listen to Mike, who at least is on the scene.

114 Asking for a reason isn't attempting to be a moderator. I was asking for a reason; you were unable or unwilling to provide one, so instead you answered a completely different question.
If you don't have any reason at all, then you don't, that's all there is to it. Fine.

Even though he can only negotiate with one team, I think Mr. Boras has all the great majority of the leverage here. The one thing working in Theo's favor re: leverage is that DM supposedly really really really wants to pitch in MLB NOW. Will that override Boras's desire to get as much money as possible in a three-year deal?

On the one hand, Boras must know that if he screws this up, his name is mud in the Japanese market. He is too smart a businessperson to let that happen.

On the other hand, DM had to know who and what he was signing up for when he chose Scott Boras as his agent. Going with Boras is equal to a big sign that DM wants every last penny he can get.

So what will win, DM's desire to play in MLB right now, or Boras/DM's desire to get as much money as possible? This will be fascinating to watch.

117 I should add that, obviously, unless the Sox make an offer that blows DM and Boras away in terms of money (like the 3 year/$51 million offer like I posited above in 40), it seems clear the path to the most cash lies in being able to bid all 30 teams against each other and playing another year in Japan.

The other question is how the Lions play into this. If DM goes back to them, does he/do they lose face? $51.1 million is an awful lot of money, and (without knowing anything about the Lions) they might be better off with the cash. If this is so, that puts a lot of leverage on Theo's side.

The Japanese system is inherently unfair. I despise the Red Sox, but they should not be able to in effect block Matsuzaka from MLB, and I hope they ultimately sign him. If the Red Sox are unable to complete a deal--the time period for that deal should be shortened--then Matsuzaka should be able to negotiate with the next highest bidder, and continue to negotiate with subsequent clubs in a fair progression beginning with the next highest bidder until a deal is struck.

I don't think it's productive to argue about the Sox intentions, as none of us--and no one in the press to be certain--has any idea what their plans are, or were.

I am hoping for the best: they sign Matsuzaka, he gets his money, and then blows his arm out in May.

As for the Yankees, I don't think they will break the bank for Zito or Schmidt. They may sign a guy like Lily on the cheap. I think Cashman's recent moves illustrate an understanding that we could have used some young guys with some fire, and God willing, some decent stuff, in the playoffs last year. However, I think he also understands that 2 Sandy Koufax's, 2 Roger Clemens's, and 1 Bob Gibson wouldn't have compensated for the significant drop in offense that accompanied that series with the Tigers. I do not believe that he is going to continue down the same path expecting different results.

I think he ostensibly stands pat this off-season. He dumped some dead weight, acquired some real potential in return, and jettisoned some drama along with it. Zito is both too pricy and too risky. He doesn't get hurt, but be also has an ERA well short of the 5 Yr/80 Mil. figure he is likely to command. Schmidt had a just fractionally above average ERA, his velocity fluctuates like Oprah's weight, and he did all this in the downright banal NL.

119 Hm, convincing. How come I've never noticed you here before?

Except for one thing: you don't think it's productive to argue about the Sox' intentions?
Dude, if we were interested in being productive, would we be typing in this little box at Bronx Banter?

Buenos noches {yawn}.

The anti-sabermetric take on D-Mat. (Yep, he's D-Mat again since pinstripes are out.) He'll fail for the same reason that every 'can't miss', 'had ta have 'im', 'couldn't let him land in Beantown' arm we've signed since 2000 failed. Just because.

Just because — 99 times out of 100 — that's the way it woirks. Things just don't work for one reason or another. The day we signed A-Rod, I called Sox fans I knew to gloat for about five seconds, then apologize and feel their pain (these are my friends, after all.)

Who knew? And who knows now? We'll see the second coming of Koufax, the Fat Toad, or something in between. I'm guessing something in between — with joy and glee as I look over the shoulder of the Sox bookkeeper.

A quick 2¢ on Zito and Schmidt from an ex-pat NY'r living in SF — fugget both of 'em, but if I had to take one it would be Zito, hands down.

The Red Sox have offered to pay the Lions the equivilent of $18.25 million plus luxury tax for each of Matsuzaka's two remaining reserve years. Boras is going to want at least that much for every additional year of Matsuzaka's contract.

I'm disapponted that the Yanks didn't get Matsuzaka. Their current rotation looks like: "Tiger and Moose, then call for a truce."

ISTM I read somewhere that Cashman said the Yanks aren't that eager to sign Zito. I wonder if the Yanks would consider a delayed trade. That is, wait until some teams fall out of contention, and then trade some of their pitching prospects for a real #1 starter.

I've been watching this seemingly shenanigan filled bidding process for the last week or so. While the conspiracy theory seems to consistantly be that the winning bidder may have an under the table deal with Seibu to not pay the full posting fee, that scenario is of course illegal according to the MLB rules regarding the posting process.

Has anyone considered that instead of that scenario, the Red Sox have skirted the "legal" rules (while guaranteeing the Lions a huge $ figure) by having a three way agreement with Matsuzaka/Boras and the Seibu Lions. Lets say hypothetically, prior to posting they guarantee the Lions 30 milllion dollars regardless of other bids (a figure at the high end pre-posting process), complete a lower end deal with Boras on the taxable MLB contract for Matsuzaka (cutting the real dollar value the Sox will be spending), while the Seibu Lions give Matsuzaka/Boras a 10-20 million dollar check so as to make the money work for them. Thereby making all three sides happy, while limiting risk to all parties.

I've been searching for the reasoning behind this deal and I think this theory may have actually shed some new light on this. Looking at the posting guidelines, the red sox would not have technically broken rules if they negotiated this deal. Thoughts, beyond the fact that I may be skewed towards the conspiratoral side?

(Unless you want to talk about the Red Sox guaranteeing a contract for J.D. Drew (Boras client) before he opted out of his dodger contract. That I will discuss)

jfarb19@yahoo.com

117 118 Theo and the Sox probably do have more leverage than most here are giving them credit for. But let's look a it this way, lets say the Sox sign D-Mat for 4 years at 2 million dollars/year, or 3 yrs @ $0/year--in either case they would still be paying the equivelant 15 million/year for a starting pitcher. IF he is as good as advertized, that's just about right, but still a steep price. But. let's assume that they sign him for ANYTHING (5 years @ $8 mil/yr, for example)--then they end up paying 90 million, or 18 mil/yr. Leverage or not, he is gonna be pretty costly.

I love, LOVE, how all of the Boston media outlets are suddenly inline with the high spending Sox and, as always, are 100% it and think it once again makes them the best team in town. Just as the Beckett trade was the greatest trade ever last year, this move has no repercussions and sets the Sox up to dominate the "Asian market" for the next decade...Rediculous. Way to completely contradict yourselves time again and embrace what you bash the Yankees for...

Just check out bostondirtdogs.com...

And not to mention how the national media is, as always, stepping in line to praise the genius of the boy wonder and also throw in snide jabs at the Yanks...
http://tinyurl.com/yydxfa, for example

114 Well we weren't talking about a difference in opinion. We were talking about statements of fact: Payments made to Sheff and unresponsiveness. Clearly I'm not the owner or moderator of the Blog. I do try however to speak respectfully my fellow bloggers and to seek mutually acceptable outcomes to situations where we don't agree or to find the room to simply agree to disagree. I don't particularly want to simply "ignore" you. I will continue to remark respectfully when I see what are misstatements and mischaracterizations. I'll do it without employing ad-homonym attacks. You were wrong in stating the Yankees paid $13 million to Sheffield in exercising his option. You employed that statement to support your case that Cashman made a bad deal and as part of your initial "I told you so position". You refused to engage in dialog about it yet continued to post it. It got to the point where it seemed you were doing it on purpose.

This issue has gotten boring and I'll drop it as you ask but don't expect me or anyone else here to ignore those things in the future. Besides being ignored in the BB is a bigger insult than being called names. Why would I want to hurt your feelings? :-)

Cashman is stockpiling young arms in preparation for something that hasn't been breathed yet, let alone mentioned. Think Scott Kazmir.

So maybe it is just bullshit, but don't you feel better already?

Simone:

Andrew Zimbalist- the MAN in terms of baseball economics disagrees with your "TON of money" atatement:

He says :"Zimbalist estimated that the Sox might gain no more than $3 million a year by cashing in on the Japanese icon because they would be required under major league rules to equally distribute the vast majority of their earnings related to the merchandising of Matsuzaka with the 29 other teams"

Earlier in this thread, yesterday actually, I criticized Murray Chass for his use of the word "obscene" in his assessment of Boston's winning bid. In light of the revelation that the aforementioned bid was $51-million matsuzakas, well, word to your Chassticle.

Had the Chasstizer used the words "obnoxious" and "desperate," you'd get a clearer picture of those creeps on Yawkey Way.

Of course showing the money to Matsuzaka and the world doesn't mean they're going to spend it, but I hope to Babe they do -- and this Yanks fan wants to see the receipts from the Seibu Lions savings account to prove it.

Let's see the formerly frugal boy in the gorilla suit close this deal with Boras the Spider. It's put up, and shut up time for the Red Sox.

131 Sliced, that last paragraph is gold. Alex's new thread is up.

130 Where's that report? But it fits perfectly with what was thought last year with Godzilla's re-signing.