Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Wright Away
2006-11-12 09:34
by Alex Belth

According to the Baltimore Sun, the Yankees have traded Jaret Wright and cash to the O's for relief pitcher Chris Britton:

Britton, a 23-year-old right-hander who was the Orioles' eighth-round selection in the 2001 draft, was possibly the team's second-best reliever as a rookie this past season behind closer Chris Ray . Britton was 0-2 with a 3.35 ERA and one save in 52 games.

However, team officials were concerned about Britton's lack of command of a second pitch behind his fastball, and they also were worried about ongoing conditioning problems.

The Yanks have traded two veterans this week for young arms. This is what everyone has been asking for, right?

Comments (224)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-11-12 09:52:28
1.   rbj
Yup. Me likey.
2006-11-12 10:00:55
2.   wsporter
Well, in so far as everyone's asking for the "right" veterans to be traded anyway.

It's a good start. No?

2006-11-12 10:09:55
3.   SF Yanks
Sheff deal, I like. This one, eh. Don't know if Britton is going to cut it. Just have one of those feelings.
2006-11-12 10:31:07
4.   Bags
Wow. says Britton is 6'3", 280 lbs.

280? Is that a typo? That is huge. He actually looks a lot like Wright. (But bigger.)

2006-11-12 10:55:02
5.   BklynBmr
4 If nothing else, with Bruney, Franswacker and Britton, this is one bullpen you want on your side in a bar fight. That's one big boy. Here's his mug shot:

I'm not that familiar with Britton, but I absolutley love where Cash is going with all this — Sheff, and now Wright.

Younger. Meaner. Leaner. (payroll, not waistlines in this case)...

2006-11-12 10:55:05
6.   monkeypants
How much money? That is a key to how good this deal is. Even though it's not much, if the team ends up spending less than 7 million total, then it works out preety good. If, however, they end up paying for all of Wright, I am not sure it is that worth getting rid of him.

Unless, of course, Cashman has a plan for the back end of the rotation. If he has targetted some free agent, or better yet, if they are committed to using some AAA talent (can Karstens or whomever really be that much worse than the Wright, et al), then it is correct to keep Wright from cluttering up the rotation/BP.

2006-11-12 11:32:37
7.   joejoejoe
I say re-sign Ponson. Let's corner the market on fat pitchers. Is Bobby Jenks available?
2006-11-12 11:37:30
8.   wsporter
I wonder if this means Lilly and or Meche are seen as reasonable replacements. I wouldn't squawk if we got Lilly back. Although I liked the Weaver deal when it went down (I'm a moron) I didn't like moving Lilly. He averages about 6 innings per start so that's pretty Wright-like and he's about the same age but he is a lefty. He is what he is at this stage of his career I guess.

We have Wang and a whole lot-a-nothing beyond Unit right now. I'll assume Moose will be signed for 2 years and that Unit's long, long, long, 300 year old back will be okay and that some approximation of a front of the rotation starter will be signed. I might sign one of those two above for depth if either can be had but I would give the kids a really good long look. I'm not sure what I'd give Pavano.

I'm really curious to see what Ca$hman has up his sleeve. He sure is collecting some pitchers and I don't get the feeling he's hording them only so he can show them off at the next Minor League Complex barbeque.

2006-11-12 11:40:03
9.   wsporter
6 Momkey P, among others the AP says that it's the $4 million option that they agreed to pay.
2006-11-12 11:57:12
10.   brockdc
4 He looks like he ate Wright.
2006-11-12 12:42:29
11.   jakewoods
I really like what Cash is doing so far but he's going to need to upgrade that rotation and fast.

Be interesting to see what direction he goes. Does he go for Meche and Lilly. Two guys with upside. Take a chance.

Needs a lefty in the pen. How about Jamie Walker? Pitched real well for the Tigers.

2006-11-12 12:44:32
12.   David
This deal is too good. They're both righties. Britton is younger, cheaper, signed for a longer period, had an ERA of 3.35 vs. Wright's 4.49. [One should add something to Britton's ERA (0.5?) for an NL pitcher moving to the AL. Even with that adjustment, Britton's ERA is still a whole lot better than Wright's.]

The only aspect I can see favoring Wright is that he's a starter.

The deal seems like a steal. Why did the O's agree to it? Do the Orioles know something bad about Britton? Are the Orioles confident that they can help Wright return to his 2004 form, when he was 15-8, 3.38?

2006-11-12 12:44:33
13.   seamus
11 not fast. just by february.
2006-11-12 12:47:04
14.   jakewoods
a starter who goes 170 ip+ is more value to a team like the orioles than an 8th inning guy. maybe they had questions about his conditioning.

another young power arm. i like it.

2006-11-12 12:49:30
15.   wsporter
12 "One should add something to Britton's ERA (0.5?) for an NL pitcher moving to the AL."

Hello, when did the O's move to the NL? Over thinking that one? :-)

2006-11-12 13:19:30
16.   monkeypants
9 Yeah, I saw that. But are the Os paying his base salary of 3 million? If so, then the Yanks are payin 'only' 4 million for Wright this year. Or do the Yankees pick up the 3 million contract AND the 4 million option?
2006-11-12 13:30:37
17.   pistolpete
Is everyone forgetting the Mazzone factor?

He's the guy who brought Wright back to form a few years ago, and now he has him again. Watch for Wright to frustrate the hell out of us by going 8 innings with 3H and 1ER a couple of times in 2007...

2006-11-12 13:38:59
18.   wsporter
16 It's a $7 million 2007 salary for Wright which was triggered when the Yankees picked up his option. The Yankees are paying $4 million of that which would have been the amount they owed Wright if they bought him out instead of picking up the option. That leaves $3 million that the O's are paying.

Yankees total payment is $4 million which is what they would have paid to buy Wright out. This way they make the same payment and they get Britton. Nice work in my book.

2006-11-12 13:51:32
19.   monkeypants
18 makes sense. Nice deal. As for the Mazzone Factor 17, whatever magic power he has will work on any crappy pitcher, Wright or otherwise.
2006-11-12 13:52:36
20.   jakewoods
mazzone is a real genuis. he had the foresight to have had smoltz, maddux and glavine.

my aunt mildred would be a genuis too if she was there pitching coach.

2006-11-12 13:59:16
21.   Simone
In reply to Cliff's post, clearly I am the only person, but I haven't been asking the Yankees to trade veterans for prospects. However, if that is what they are going do... well it isn't like I have any control over what they do. All I am asking the Yankees to do is sign or trade for one or two solid starting pitchers. Not easy, but hopefully it happens eventually.
2006-11-12 14:21:11
22.   OldYanksFan
"37. Cliff Corcoran: 24 Visited links should be purple, while unvisited links should be blue."

Cliff... Purple and Blue are the default colors most browsers are set for. This is controlled in: Tools/Internet Options/Colors.

However, I also see 'grey' as the visited link color. The link colors can be declared in your html code. Your code DOES seem to alter the links... as they highlight RED during mouseover, which is NOT the browser action, but created in code.

Have your web guy check your defined stylesheets:
<link rel="stylesheet" href=""
<link rel="stylesheet" href=""

2006-11-12 14:25:20
23.   OldYanksFan
I suggested Robert Fick as backup C. His numbers are reasonable, and the cost is very cheap. This assumes they can not get a potential stud type guy.

Feedback please?

2006-11-12 14:37:49
24.   jakewoods
how about zaun or molina as backup catchers?

fick isnt much of a defensive catcher at all. hes what they call a dh.

2006-11-12 14:57:09
25.   pistolpete
19 Then how do you explain Bedard and Cabrera suddenly becoming Cy Young candidates against us this season?
2006-11-12 15:03:20
26.   pistolpete
25 I mean to reference 20
2006-11-12 15:29:41
27.   jakewoods
bedard is a good pitcher and cabrera was worlds of talent. his one outing against us in september doesnt make a career.

he did so well early that he got sent to triple a.

2006-11-12 15:49:22
28.   wsporter
Maybe someday we can say that Mazzone had the foresight to coach Bedard and Cabrerra.

Both these guys have immense tallent. They needed coaching and experience. Cabrerra in particular needed to learn how to "pitch" and controll his emotions a little. Those two may be really good this year.

2006-11-12 16:06:32
29.   C2Coke
Cashman is awesome. How does he manage to squeeze something out of nothing is beyond me. He paid nothing for three live young arms and he paid the same amount for getting rid of Wright and got another young arm in return. Genious. Honestly, I don't think anyone here can do a better job.

8 That same reason made me feel confident that something is being worked on, and when the announcement is made, it's going to make our whole off-season. (And no, I am not really referring to the Matsuzaka deal- as too many unknown factors, including how he can handle the transition not just pitching in ML level but also changing his entire environment, are involved- but just something big and Abreu-like.)
Is it obvious now that I have become a firm believe of Ca$hman?

2006-11-12 16:08:08
30.   C2Coke
29 *believer.
2006-11-12 16:13:27
31.   C2Coke
Peter Abraham's latest post may help to put the events this weekend into perspective for some fans.

2006-11-12 16:18:18
32.   jakewoods
u can kinda assume that they have a good feeling about some pitcher out there if they're trading away wright

when they only really have 2 sp's now when moose resigns

makes me think that they may think they have a better than fair shot at matusaka

2006-11-12 16:37:49
33.   brockdc
24 I'd take any of either Fick, Zaun, or Molina as backup C. Molina might be nice because he's another RH bat (albeit a mediocre one). Zaun is fairly poor at throwing runners out. I don't know what his numbers were this past year, but, in one game, the Yanks ran on him at will.

At any rate, we have found that this is one glaring whole on the roster that necessitates more than just a warm body.

2006-11-12 18:44:39
34.   Murray
Is niiice. I like.
2006-11-12 19:40:00
35.   Yu-Hsing Chen
If we are going for a middle of the road guy i rather have Randy Wolf over Ted Lilly.

I would hope we can steal Hong Chih Kuo from the Dodgers, but that's hopeing for a bit too much ;)

2006-11-12 21:05:18
36.   monkeypants
well, Giants just found some new ways to embarrass themselves. Sigh--when does baseball season start?
2006-11-12 22:14:42
37.   jakewoods
for 28 minutes they dominated that game. i was so confident of victory i didnt put it back on and when i did it was 24-20.

lucky for me i got to watch hesters run


2006-11-13 01:07:54
38.   ukyankee
1st time poster....i've been looking for a good while from here in the UK. I'm a sports scientist for a pro soccer club.Been watching baseball for 4 years now and its quickly become the 3rd love of my life behind my daughter and wife. could you guys tell me why there are so many fat pitchers is the game......i can see no bio-mechanical advantages....only huge negatives, like extra strain on all joints, less stamina and poor mobility.....thanks
2006-11-13 03:29:41
39.   joejoejoe
38 This is completely unscientific but maybe fat pitchers have a deception advantage with their pitching motion, their roundness somehow making it a tiny bit harder for batters to pickup what kind of pitch is coming.
2006-11-13 04:48:33
40.   Jersey
38 - It's not by design. Tubby pitchers don't set out and say "I want to be the type of pitcher who relies on his girth!" Really, a lot of them are just fat guys, poor athletes who happen to have a nasty arm. Does being out of shape hurt their career? Yeah. But like anyone else in other segments of life, some pitchers just aren't into fitness. And, being a good athlete and a good pitcher are often independent of one another. So some guys get away with it.
2006-11-13 05:32:50
41.   C2Coke
38 Perpahs it's because they don't run around the bases? And they don't need to...
Baseball players are not the fittest athletics around, let along the pitchers who only need to stand on the mound. And then, there are all the late night beers and meals.
2006-11-13 05:33:34
42.   jakewoods
You know a big man may be in decent shape even if he is a little overweight.

Not everyone has to be on the cover of muscle and fitness to pitch.

2006-11-13 05:47:27
43.   rbj
Wasn't it Nolan Ryan who said something about pitching being mostly in the legs? Anyway, more rotund guys have stronger legs due to carrying all that extra weight around. That probably helps.

And yeah, a 49 (52?) yard field goal attempt. Brilliant move, Coughlin. /sarcasm.

2006-11-13 05:49:31
44.   Yankee Fan In Boston
38 the added weight might give the body more momentum as they push off the pitcher's mound and drive towards home plate. but i am basing this guess on absolutely zero scientific data.

also, we should all pitch in and send ca$hman a thank you card or a bouquet of flowers or a candygram or something. there was an outcry calling for young power pitchers the day after the ALDS ousting. he has landed 4 young power arms for the exact cost of getting rid of jaret wright. while i saw the logic presented here regarding holding onto wright, if ca$hman thought unloading him in favor of britton was a good idea, i will trust him until britton blows up.

i love the speculation that says that there must be another deal for a starter coming soon. moose should be returning any day now, too.

take heart, people. things are looking good.

2006-11-13 06:00:28
45.   Shaun P
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Ca$hmoney doesn't trade for a "young gun" starter at all. I really think he's stockpiling young arms to have in case the Yanks need them in '07 and beyond.

And, looking at it from all the other teams' perspective: what team that wants to compete in '07 and beyond is going to give up MLB proven young starting pitching? None of them. That leaves the teams that won't contend in '07: the Royals, the Nats, and the Pirates. (IMHO the Rays and the Orioles could be on the verge if things break right.) None of those teams will want to give up young pitching either.

Now, I could see Ca$hmoney using some of that young pitching to get a hitter or two (young catcher and/or righty 1B anyone?). But not a pitcher.

2006-11-13 06:04:16
46.   wsporter
Is anyone starting to get the feeling that the Seibu Lions may be getting ready to reject the bids? I thought they were going to announce on Monday morning Japan Time. That was about 13 hours ago. This just feels funnier with every tick of the international clock. (now watch they'll announce for the sawx in 5 min.)

I think pitchers are fatter because, being limited to life on a small hill, they consume more calories than they use.

2006-11-13 06:11:09
47.   Yankee Fan In Boston
46 "they consume more calories than they use."

insightful, educational, and hilarious.

yeah, this waiting is killing me. i figured we'd know what was happening by now. i am pulling my hair out...

2006-11-13 06:28:20
48.   jayd
This is going to be a splendid off season in Boston. I still think this Matsuzaka thing has the potential for more twists and turns than a gyroball in the dreams of your standard sawk's noggin. I was reminded the other day that Irabu had originally signed with the Padres before he whined and demanded to be traded to the Yankees. Wouldn't that be a total hoopla-hoop if history repeated itself?

In the meantime we wait till Tuesday. Does this mean we now close on Zito or is something greater on the horizon, a Johnson/Vasquez type trade for somebody REALLY interesting like Hong-Chih Kuo or Scott Kazmir as rumours fly?

2006-11-13 06:31:43
49.   Yankee Fan In Boston
48 oh dear god, please, don't tease me with unsubstantiated kazmir-to-NY rumors... after all of this matsuzaka frenzy ending in apparent let down, i don't think i could take that.
2006-11-13 08:52:21
50.   jayd
And here's another lefty in addition to Zito:
"There are other pitchers in Japan. On Friday, the Hanshin Tigers said they would grant left-handed starter Kei Igawa's longtime request and would post him. Igawa's posting won't cost that much. But he does present some interesting assets. He's only 27, one year older than Matsuzaka. He's left-handed, always a plus. And he has numbers, including a 93-mph fastball that has led to three Central League strikeout titles, including this season, when he fanned 194. A 20-game winner in 2003, he was 14-9 this season with a 2.97 ERA." Taken from a "rumours site" for fox sports.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-11-13 08:56:07
51.   Yankee Fan In Boston
50 he pitched in the japan series. reporters were asking the US players how they thought he'd do in the US. david wright was really candid, saying that his fastball was good, but his slider was "flat."

in fairness, wright did mention that the kid had a month off before the series, and that could potentially have something to do with it, but... who knows.

2006-11-13 09:05:01
52.   OldYanksFan
38 ukyankee...
Speaking as a fat person....
I believe it is simply because there are a LOT of fat people in this world.
Position players can't get away with it as much, because it impedes their running and defense... although maybe not their offense.

Pitchers can get away with it if they can still pitch.

As someone who has been thin and fat and thin and fat a numbers of times...
I really don't believe I did ANYTHING better when I was (and am now) fat, except maybe eat.

And while it's possible that being a bit (10-15) lbs overweight might not hurt, I can't believe being overweight is any advantage at all.

If a fat person is in very good shape (oxymoron?) and has muscle 'hidden' under the fat, it may be deceptive. And yes... muscles do get stronger carrying extra weight... but those muscles also have a lot more work do... especially heart and lung.

When you look at 'pure stamina' sports, you rarely see overweight people.

A few year ago, Jorge put on weight and muscle, I think to achieve better power. Now he has lost the weight, and is a much better defensive player.

Being a little overweight is probably better then being a little underweight (reserves), but my purely personal opinion is:

Being more then a little overweight holds no advantage, and is probably a disadvantage. These guys are just fat... and I would venture are better off losing the extra weight.

2006-11-13 09:22:57
53.   Eirias
The Mets new stadium is going to be named "CitiField." Too funny!
2006-11-13 10:32:55
54.   Count Zero
I think you should all just get over the Matsuzaka thing -- Cashman evaluated how much he was willing to pay for Matsuzaka and I don't think a number over $20 million was ever in the picture for the Yanks. Keeping up with the Joneses / Red Sox as a player strategy has mostly netted us overpriced crap. (cf. Vazquez, Contreras, Pavano)

While I see Zito as a distinct possibility in the Yankees sights, I think what we should really be expecting is the out of left field surprise trade / signing like jayd is saying. There are some pitchers out there who may not be as untradeable as people think...and Cashmoney is known for his powers of misdirection.

2006-11-13 10:35:09
55.   ukyankee
Thanks for the insight and opinions! From my experience any athlete has a responsibility to there club/emlpyers and especially fans to prepare themselves to get the best out of there abilities. You look at a guy like Bruney ...or even 'Boomer' and wonder how much better they could be/have been if the had more respect for there talents
2006-11-13 11:26:18
56.   nemecizer
Word on the blogs is that the Seibu Lions will make some sort of announcement either tonight at 8pm or tomorrow night at 8pm (both times EST).
2006-11-13 11:27:57
57.   ukyankee
What about Ben Shhets......i read Milwaukee are after a CF (Melky) and i'm sure they'd appreciate a couple of the 'young power arms' ca$h just acquired!?????
2006-11-13 11:28:10
58.   ukyankee
thats Sheets!
2006-11-13 11:50:24
59.   Yankee Fan In Boston
matsuzaka. gammons. red sox.
2006-11-13 11:51:42
60.   Yankee Fan In Boston
$42M. that is too much. mr. ca$hman showed restraint. i respect his decision.
2006-11-13 11:54:57
61.   Simone
$42 million! Wow, I'm impressed. Good job by John Henry. Matsuzaka will be a stud and worth every penny.

Red Sox fans better never, never, ever complain about not being able to compete with the Yankees for players or the Yankees buying players.

2006-11-13 11:57:40
62.   Chyll Will
55 ee's onto sumthin'; someone get this chap (you are a chap, yesnomaybeso?) a seat in between Gene Monahagn and Steve Donohue, pretty pleeze? I mean, is conditioning an enforceable contract clause anymore?

Six "fat" players to consider:
George Herman "Babe" Ruth
David "Boomer" Wells
Hideki "Fat P@$%& Toad" Irabu
Sal "Fugginunbelievable" Fasano
Sidney "Arrested Development" Ponson
John "insert unkind knickname here" Kruk

Now, who can name an All-Time Fat All-Star team? Any clever takers?

2006-11-13 11:58:28
63.   Chyll Will
I dunno if I spelled Geno's last name right; probably not.
2006-11-13 11:59:07
64.   kylepetterson
I like this comment: "Boston's bid far exceeded any other team's offer"

The bold belongs to me.

2006-11-13 12:00:53
65.   Chyll Will
62 And Kirstie Alley doesn't count.
2006-11-13 12:01:37
66.   wsporter
59 If that's the case I wonder why the SL's are milking this along. If they have reason to believe that the high bid is from the Sawx could they be concerned that the Sawx don't intend to make a good faith offer during the 30 day phase? I wonder if they're discussing rejecting the bid along the lines that if no contract is ultimately signed they woudn't get the funds anyway.

Maybe they're just living in the limelight and soaking up a little free name exposure. Hell, if it wasn't for Mike P and COH who ever would have heard about them anyway?

Either way, I JUST WANT TO KNOW!

2006-11-13 12:02:28
67.   C2Coke
64 But there's still no official announcement, right?
2006-11-13 12:03:24
68.   kylepetterson
67 Not yet.
2006-11-13 12:05:46
69.   C2Coke
If the Sox thing is true, why are they still waiting until tomorrow to announce it? This offseason drama is almost hilarious.
2006-11-13 12:07:49
70.   JL25and3
Apparently the Red Sox are also going hard after J. D. Drew. With Trot Nixon presumably leaving, they had another hole in their lineup - they needed a lefty-hitting, oft-injured right fielder. Drew will be very expensive, but he's excellent in that role.
2006-11-13 12:10:13
71.   Yankee Fan In Boston
61 exactly.

a side note, theo has reportedly made an offer to jd drew, and it is said to be a larger contract than the one he offered damon.

(i'm sure that damon will still be considered the one with "loyalty" issues around here.)

i guess if you finish under the blue jays, you can dust off the checkbook. i look forward to seeing my boston baseball buddies soon. they've always been complaining about the money non-issue. i had been telling them for years that the sox had the money to compete, but chose not to.

they're doing everything they can to prove me right.

the evil empire club has a new member.

2006-11-13 12:11:10
72.   Simone
I find the waiting to hear about Matsuzaka to be fun. I was hoping that the Yankees would get him, but if he goes to the Red Sox that would definitely revive the rivalry.

$42 million! Amazing. So much for the budget that Red Sox fans claim are constrainting Henry, Werner & Co.

2006-11-13 12:16:07
73.   jakewoods
anyone else find it funny that they're going to pay a pitcher 100 million dollars, sight unseen mind you, and they wouldnt give damon and pedro a few extra mill to stay?

now they're going to give the always reliable jd drew 50 and julio lugo 40+

wow. we're seeing this team implode. these are the kinds of bad moves that set back a franchise.

2006-11-13 12:16:07
74.   Yankee Fan In Boston
61 72
2006-11-13 12:16:49
75.   RIYank
I'm still skeptical.

Someone explain to me how this could make economic sense for both the Sox and Matsuzaka/Boras. Under what scenario, for instance, would it not make more sense for Matsuzaka/Boras to turn down the Sox' offer and wait until next year?

The one factor in Boston's favor, it seems to me, is that the $42 mil doesn't get luxury taxed. That makes a big difference, but I don't see how it could be a big enough difference.

JD Drew is a better hitter than Damon, by the way. But he's a corner outfielder. It'll be very interesting if Theo really does throw more money at him than Damon was offered.

2006-11-13 12:16:56
76.   C2Coke
71 You don't say! That's some high membership fees. After this season, I am certainly glad that Damon deal didn't work out for them. But I am sure the Matsuzaka deal will work out for them (if it's true) know ...considersing how much money they are about to invest.

The timeline I got for official announcement will be around 4am ET.

2006-11-13 12:19:32
77.   C2Coke
75 Especially when Matsuzaka/Boras are not getting that $42 million no matter what.

76 And yes, I meant 4 am in case anyone's wondering.

2006-11-13 12:20:20
78.   Simone
71 J.D. Drew? The Red Sox organization is throwing money any and every where. Bud must be chewing his nails to the quick with anxiety.
2006-11-13 12:21:29
79.   OldYanksFan
According to PGammo, the SL's are notified of the AMOUNT but NOT the team who bid it. So, theoretically, if they have a bid for $42mil (I find this VERY hard to believe), you would think they would believe it was the Yankees... but they are not supposed to know.

This sounds a little like 'slavery' to me. If D-Mats waits a year, he can negociate with any team, and has a LOT more $$s possible (as there would be no signing fee). Instead, to save a year, he can only negotiate with the ONE team with the highest bid. Also (Rock-and-hard-place), I believe he has a 'duty' to sign unless the deal is extremely bad, meaning SL could get $42 million (one shot deal) while D-Mats has to work 4 years to make a similar amount? Can the Sox really be planning on paying this guy like $20mil/year?

I heard D-Mats is expecting $13-$15mil/year.
4years @ 13mil + 42mil = 94 million!?!?

This seems nuts.
I know it's not my money but common....
This guy has not pitched one game in MLB yet.
Is it me who is nuts?

2006-11-13 12:22:55
80.   pmarcig
If this is true, then Boston just did this to keep the guy from NY for a year. They low ball him $20 mil/3 yrs (or whatever) they decline it and it's over, they get their $42 back.

Otherwise, they've lost their heads.

2006-11-13 12:22:59
81.   jakewoods
i dont see cashman throwing 40+ plus at this guy.

now he can take that 40 plus and get 2 sp's, a 1b, a backup catcher, a lefty for the pen, and invest heavily in young latin american players.

2006-11-13 12:23:33
82.   RIYank
79 I don't believe Matsuzaka has any duty to sign at all. He can decline on whatever grounds he likes.
2006-11-13 12:24:53
83.   RIYank
80 That sounds right to me.
Of course, if he's caught he's got a problem, but I don't see how he could be caught. They'll just offer him what they're willing to pay, and he'll decline.
2006-11-13 12:26:18
84.   Simone
74 If that article is true, Henry, Werner, Lucchino, and Theo are going wild with the cash. Well, they do say that imitation is the best form of flattery. The Yankees are now the Republic. Ha.
2006-11-13 12:28:18
85.   OldYanksFan
Evil 'Red' Empire:
2006-11-13 12:28:55
86.   wsporter
79 Yes, but the internet reaches Japan doesn't it. If we know it I'm sure they do as well. Buster has a world wide following. :-)

He doesn't have to sign a contract if he doesn't want to go to the winning team. He can stay home, wait a year, then play for the greatest sports franchise in history. That's us by the way.

2006-11-13 12:29:23
87.   jakewoods
if they low ball him they can conceivably go to choice #2 on the bid list. because it will be not in good faith.

or they could sign him and then trade him. mets? rangers?

2006-11-13 12:30:21
88.   wsporter
85 Commies eh? I knew it all along.
2006-11-13 12:30:58
89.   Simone
79 Yes, it is a lot of money, but these people are billionaires, they can afford it and Matsuzaka will be worth the gamble. He will be will good pitcher if his Japanese career and performance in the WBC are any indication of his abilities. With Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Schilling, the Red Sox rotation with be tough. I wish the Yankes had put in the highest bid, but it will be fun to ESPN and other Yankee haters forced to turn their wrath against the Red Sox.
2006-11-13 12:33:38
90.   OldYanksFan
79 It is NOT a legal 'duty', but I believe one by Japanese 'tradition' standards. Maybe Mike P. knows more on this. I think its a dishonor on SL for D-Mats to turn down a deal. As I said, it's not absolute, but I believe there is some pressure on D-Mats to accept.

This whole bidding process certainly favors the owners and not the players. NOT waiting this extra ONE year is gonna cost D-Mats over 20 mil.

2006-11-13 12:36:12
91.   wsporter
JC!, Off the Facade has the Sawx winning bid at over $50 million. Shi*, this is getting silly. That's just the price to have a drink with Boras. I can't immagine what dinner and a movie would run.
2006-11-13 12:39:08
92.   Yankee Fan In Boston
91 i trust gammons. i also am inclined to question whether they intend on signing this kid to a real deal... but they'd HAVE to try. they know where he'd end up otherwise.
2006-11-13 12:43:33
93.   jakewoods
i cant see them low balling him. this guy is a hero in asia and the sox would look terrible over there if they insulted him.

this whole posting process is just stupid.

why not have an open auction? they could even get a better deal if that were the case. its just dumb

2006-11-13 12:47:58
94.   Zack
What I will be really interested in seeing is if the Sox actually pay this price in full. I hope to hell that the Yankee brass is making sure that MLB carefully watches to ensure that every penny of that price gets paid. No Ichiro! thing this time. Obviously if the Sox somehow get out of paying it all, they clearly had a deal in place ahead of time where they knew they wouldn't have to pay in full. It just smacks of tampering to me, to bid that insanely high...
2006-11-13 12:48:20
95.   Yankee Fan In Boston
93 i can't get too upset with the process itself. if the yankees had won, i'd be excited.

ca$hman will just have to get crafty. and after all, that is what ca$hman does best.

the only way i can see the sox signing him is if they had an under the table deal to pay a portion of the bid, a la seattle as per the tampering reports earlier this week.

anything else is lunacy.

2006-11-13 12:48:31
96.   RIYank
They don't have to 'low-ball' him. They just have to offer him what would be reasonable given that they're already spending $42 mil or whatever for negotiation rights. And that will not be enough for him.

I doubt there will be a lot of hang-ups over honor. Matsuzaka's agent will be the antidote to that!

2006-11-13 12:49:18
97.   Yankee Fan In Boston
94 that's what i'm saying.
2006-11-13 12:49:32
98.   RIYank
By the way, signing him and trading him seems just as insane. Suppose the Sox just got 'equal value'. They'd still be out the $42 mil.
2006-11-13 12:49:54
99.   jakewoods
well whats reasonable for a 26 yr old ace on the open market???

im thinking and i know boras is too that roy oswalt money is certainly reasonable for a 26 yr old big time ace and boston must think so too if they paid 42mill just to talk to him.


2006-11-13 12:51:05
100.   jonnystrongleg
The posting process needs to be replaced by the "transfer market" used by professional soccer. They don't need to invent anything new, it's already there and working fine. Just use that.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-11-13 12:51:22
101.   RIYank
Right, Oswalt money, or thereabouts. That's what's reasonable to accept. But I can't believe it's what's reasonable to offer! A five year contract for $73 million, plus the $42 million???
2006-11-13 12:52:04
102.   RIYank
100 So, uh, how does that work? (For those of us uninitiated in the ways of big money soccer.)
2006-11-13 12:53:03
103.   C2Coke
When should the Moose deal be settled? What's the wait about that?? What is Ca$hman cooking???
2006-11-13 12:55:06
104.   Yankee Fan In Boston
101 as insane as that sounds, i've seen the $114M total mentioned. let the sox make all of the yankees' old mistakes. see how long their little (but admittedly wonderful) ballpark can support these sprees. (if the drew and lugo rumors come to fruition.)

also, they still need a closer.

2006-11-13 12:56:19
105.   jonnystrongleg
I will be SHOCKED if the Red Sox don't sign him. This posting fee does not count against the salary structure.
1) The Red Sox are loaded w/ cash.
2) They are forced to stay at the salary limit thanks to a deal w/ Bud despite being loaded.
3) They will recoup some/all of the posting with television and ad revenue in Japan.

They are using the money they involutarily saved over several years of this ownership and investing in the Japan. The contract they eventually sign with the player will be just paying the guy to pitch.

The Red Sox were in a position to bid ludicrously high and either caught the Yanks by surprise or the Yanks realized and opted out.

2006-11-13 12:56:43
106.   jakewoods
the sox still need 2 of's

some bullpen help

and u have to assume the fenway dough is maxed out since they already sell out every game and charge the highest prices in the league

now they cant ever see anything about money again

2006-11-13 12:56:57
107.   JL25and3
96 They should offer roughly what's expected, regardless of the $42 million posting fee. That's ireelevant to Boras, as it should be. If they posted that amount and expected to discount the contract because of it, Selig should probably step in. That completely undermines the posting process.
2006-11-13 12:59:44
108.   RIYank
107 I don't get that at all. You mean the point of the posting process is to make sure that general managers behave in an economically irrational way?
2006-11-13 13:00:09
109.   jonnystrongleg
101 Chelsea and Manchester United want Michael Ballack who is under contract in Germany w/ bayern Munich. Ballack tells Bayern he'd like to play in England and probably which team he'd prefer. Bayern pretends they would never sell him in a million years, then they play the two teams off each other and get as much as possible. Then Ballack negotiates a new contract w/ Chelsea. In the old days, the player would get a portion of the transfer fee. Not sure if they do that anymore.
2006-11-13 13:01:50
110.   jonnystrongleg
108 the posting fee is not salary. no way the player agent or team will take it into account when negotiating his cotract. the red sox now have to pay this guy to pitch.
2006-11-13 13:02:59
111.   Yankee Fan In Boston
108 you shouldn't gamble with money you don't have.
the kid is being represented by scott boras. i wouldn't expect any discounts. this isn't some kid being drafted out of high school. he's been a pro for 6 seasons. he's considered the best in his home country. if "honor" does play a factor at all, i would imagine it would be in the amount of the contract.
2006-11-13 13:03:24
112.   RIYank
If the gm doesn't take the posting fee into account when negotiating salary, then he should be fired. It's irrational to ignore a cost that gets paid if and only if the player is signed.
2006-11-13 13:03:48
113.   Jersey
Sorry if this is a re-post, but AP is reporting Seibu will make an announcement tomorrow.
2006-11-13 13:03:55
114.   Chyll Will
What's to say that if the Ded Sox actually did make that kind of offer and negotiate with Matsuzaka that Boras would not either go for broke by using Drew as leverage based on the contingiency of signing Matsu at a dollar figure he finds satisfying; especially since Boston would not be his (documented) first choice?

They would HAVE to bargain in good faith, or Boras would (as he has before) steer his clients elsewhere from then-on just to screw them back. Boston's playing with big snakes, if you ask me.

2006-11-13 13:05:24
115.   Yankee Fan In Boston
114 and if they can't work out a deal w/ matsuzaka or drew, how would boras play the zito card?

i love the hot stove...

2006-11-13 13:06:13
116.   RIYank
114 Yeah, Boras is the wildcard, you're right.
On the other hand, Theo Epstein is too shrewd to let himself be played by Boras. You know Cashman wouldn't let that happen; neither would Theo.

I think.

2006-11-13 13:07:15
117.   Simone
98 The Red Sox would more than recoup the $42 million in deals with Japanese businesses.

105 Exactly. Just earlier this year, Olney became the first media person to ask what the Red Sox was doing with all the money that they have been pocketing since they bought the team. Henry has been selling their fans BS as he stuck every penny in his pocket. Hell, they were even selling souvenirs from the World Series. It is about time that Henry and Werner splurge on the payroll.

2006-11-13 13:09:34
118.   RIYank
117 The Red Sox would more than recoup the $42 million in deals with Japanese businesses.
If that's true, then Matsuzaka should wait until next year and get most of that $42 mil in contract negotiations with the Mets, Yanks, Mariners, Rangers, and Red Sox.
2006-11-13 13:10:35
119.   Yankee Fan In Boston
117 and the funny thing is, most fans here weren't calling the owners on their shenanigans. they'd just follow the local sportscaster's lead and blame everything on NY, or "the bad guys" as they are honestly referred to on local newscasts...

that kind of smoke and mirrors game would never fly with NY fans.

2006-11-13 13:13:53
120.   joejoejoe
I read all of Mike Plugh's assessments of Matsuzaka and the only concern I had was high HR totals. Isn't that a greater concern in Fenway? I'm not seeing the deal from a baseball point-of-view for the Red Sox but I can see it making sense in terms of overseas marketing.
2006-11-13 13:13:53
121.   JL25and3
112If the gm doesn't take the posting fee into account when negotiating salary, then he should be fired.

I agree. But that just means that the team has to decide how much it can afford for a posting fee, given how much they'll have to pay in salary. The posting fee is their problem, not the player's

2006-11-13 13:16:21
122.   yanklifer
109 Ballack moved on a bosman free transfer, i believe.
2006-11-13 13:16:22
123.   JL25and3
112If the gm doesn't take the posting fee into account when negotiating salary, then he should be fired.

I agreee. But that just means the team has to decide how much they're willing to spend on a posting fee, given how much they'll have to pay in salary. The posting fee is their problem, not the player's; the team needs to take it into account, but it's strictly above and beyond the contract.

2006-11-13 13:16:53
124.   JL25and3
Aargh. I reloaded a couple of times to make sure it didn't post before reposting. I tried, I really did.
2006-11-13 13:17:56
125.   Yankee Fan In Boston
i've read that the balls carry more in japanese parks. didn't hideki matsui hit 50+ in japan?

even still, he supposedly gives up longballs more consistently to righties.

when they can touch him.

2006-11-13 13:17:57
126.   RIYank
Okay, I get it.
But if the BSox offer, say, four years for $30 million, you think MLB will look askance at that?
2006-11-13 13:19:30
127.   jonnystrongleg
122 I was just using the common names for illustration's sake - should have checked the facts!
2006-11-13 13:20:08
128.   Yankee Fan In Boston
126 that is the slippery slope of arbitrary designations...
2006-11-13 13:21:06
129.   Shaun P
117 Don't forget the cost of all the various improvements made to Fenway over the last few years, as well as debt payments. IIRC, when Henry & Co bought the team and NESN, they assumed a lot of debt. And, unless the tax rules have changed, there's some loophole an owner can't use after having owned the team for 5 years. Henry & Co will have owned the team for 5 years in early 2007.

Regardless of which team wins the bid, I'll bet Boras has DM take a Godzilla-like contract, where DM becomes a non-arb eligible free agent after 3 years. That gets him back on the market at 29, and lets Boras drive his prize sky-high, presuming he does what he's supposed to do.

2006-11-13 13:21:45
130.   Zack
The Sox are really in a win-win situation. Either they don't sign him and block him from the Yanks for a year (which really isn't too big a deal for the Yanks in the end) or they sign him and improve the heck out of their staff, which, ironically, probably isn't their biggest weakness, at a cost that they can really afford in the long run.

What this does make me think, however, is that maybe the Sox will actually really trade Manny to balance it out?

2006-11-13 13:23:21
131.   jonnystrongleg
126 No, but the Red Sox WANT to sign him. They will get him in the 4/40 - 4/44 range it think.

If the pitcher wants to come to a premier MLB team and doesn't want to risk another year of 140 pitch counts, the Red Sox are in great negotiating shape.

If the pitcher has pinstriped pajamas and dreams of going out chasing girls w/ derek, then the red sox are in trouble.

2006-11-13 13:24:56
132.   Yankee Fan In Boston
theo epsteinbrenner
2006-11-13 13:25:22
133.   JL25and3 is reporting that they've confirmed Red Sox as highest bidders, $34-38 million.

2006-11-13 13:25:47
134.   Chyll Will
Maybe what Cash has been doing in stockpiling young arms is the obvious answer to who won the bid. As far as why he hasn't signed Moose yet, it seems that he may be waiting to see how lucky he is in this sweepstakes, but after that I'm fairly certain we'll see another flurry of moves.

I have a strange feeling that this process will turn out to be some greatbighuge car wreck in the near future.

2006-11-13 13:26:07
135.   JL25and3
130 You know how I feel about Manny. They're nuts if they trade him.
2006-11-13 13:26:42
136.   RIYank
131 Then they'll be paying $20+ per year for him.
That's believable to you?

If so, then doesn't Boras know that next year he can get at least close to $20/year? I know, you're right about the big pitch counts, it's a little bit risky to wait.

2006-11-13 13:27:50
137.   Zack
133 Its amazing the range of prices going around, who knows...34 mill is a heck of a lot different than 50 mill...
2006-11-13 13:28:16
138.   JL25and3
136 I'd expect him to get the same amount next year as this year. The posting fee is essentially a capital cost.
2006-11-13 13:30:05
139.   Yankee Fan In Boston
136 one thing to factor into the pitch counts argument is that they play less games a week over there and get more days off between starts. does that make a difference? i don't know. just one more funky difference to mess with the numbers and their translation.
2006-11-13 13:31:49
140.   RIYank
138 Okay, then why did Theo throw away $42 million? He could have just outbid everybody else next year, and still saved his team a lot of money.
2006-11-13 13:32:08
141.   jonnystrongleg
136 I don't think the Red Sox would be willing to pay him 20 million a year in salary because that would violate their agreement with Selig. They are only willing and able to do this precisely becasue it is NOT salary. So the Red Sox can pay this amount this year, but can't next year when it will all be salary.
2006-11-13 13:34:26
142.   RIYank
141 Hm.
Is there a real, written agreement with Selig? Or is it just an 'understanding'?
2006-11-13 13:34:59
143.   jonnystrongleg
This was realy a unique set of circumstances for the Red Sox to take advantage. It's really unbelievable that no one put all these pieces together before the bidding. Not one word about how it plays perfectly into their hands.
2006-11-13 13:35:46
144.   jonnystrongleg
141 Heavy rumors at the time that selig picked henry because he was willing get in line about the salary thing.
2006-11-13 13:36:25
145.   RIYank
So, no formal agreement?
2006-11-13 13:36:46
146.   Shaun P
137 That's one reason why I'm not too worried about this yet. You'd think if this had leaked for real, all the info would match - team and price.

And, of course, there's still a chance that the Lions reject the bid. I don't know enough about the NPB, but the Lions could decide that another year of having DM on their team is worth as much or more than whatever the bid amount is.

And how much will 'honor' play into things? With all the hype, especially from the WBC, people everywhere in the baseball world know DM's name. The Lions might decide its more important from an 'honor' standpoint to let Matsuzaka walk than to sell him. "Why would you willing let go of our greatest player?" and whatnot.

2006-11-13 13:36:51
147.   Chyll Will
If Boston's willing to post that much, then that automatically drives his value up on the open market. If you're Boras, what would you advise your client? Take whatever they give you and run? Or wait another year and be a superstar (without having even thrown one pitch in the US)? You run the risk of injury during that year or turning in a mediocre campaign right before, but the risk is worth the reward if that's what you're really after. What it comes down to then is how bad he wants to pitch in the US right now... this reminds me of Contreras all over again, but with Wild Card Boras holding the strings.
2006-11-13 13:37:59
148.   RIYank
147 Exactly.
Whew, I'm not crazy.
2006-11-13 13:39:52
149.   jonnystrongleg
145 I think if you look at boston's salary in most years it's right at the limit. But, no there is no public agreement.
2006-11-13 13:39:57
150.   Chyll Will
148 I dunno about that, look who you're agreeing with >;)
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-11-13 13:42:03
151.   RIYank
149 Okay.
I think they stay around the limit because they don't want to pay the luxury tax. But in any case, you could be right that some kind of understanding with Selig is a consideration.

150 Uh oh.

2006-11-13 13:42:03
152.   jakewoods
the red sox dont have an agreement with selg about costs

thats called collusion and its illegal. mccourt in LA doesnt have it either. selig wants the high market teams to be leaders but theres no "agreement" in place. especially when said franchises think they can improve.

but dont all these moves go against theo's mantra of being fluid and not committing all the resources to a few players???

i wonder if they trade manny now to get some payroll savings. and take his 20 mill savings and spread it around.

2006-11-13 13:42:09
153.   jonnystrongleg
147 & 148 Not crazy at all. Assuming the Boston rumors are true, the pitcher and the agent represent the only question mark. I work at a Japanese firm and everybody here is bummed the Yanks didn't win but they are convinced he will signwith the Red Sox because more than anything else he wants to pitch in MLB ASAP.
2006-11-13 13:45:11
154.   jonnystrongleg
152 I'm convinced the Sox do have an agreement with Selig and most of the evidence points strongly toward that fact. IIRC The Red Sox were sold for like 600 million, and there were higher bids. It went to this guy because Bud needed a big market salary ally.
2006-11-13 13:45:31
155.   Yankee Fan In Boston
152 give him a turtleneck and blazer. he is theo epsteinbrenner.
2006-11-13 13:45:41
156.   RIYank
153 Dammit.
We'll have to count on Boras to do his thing, then!

I'd like to see Ca$hman hold a press conference: "We're very disappointed, we so admire Matsuzaka and we hoped he would be a Yankee. We had no idea that the Red Sox would commit so much of their available money toward the posting fee."

2006-11-13 13:45:57
157.   jonnystrongleg
if not an agreement - a strongly held common philosophy.
2006-11-13 13:46:52
158.   RIYank
Jakewoods makes a good point, though. If the Players' Association got evidence of an agreement between Henry and Selig to keep the salaries low, you'd be looking at one mother of a law suit.
2006-11-13 13:49:31
159.   jakewoods
there cant be an agreement. its against business practices first of all. they may have the same theory of not exceeding the 150 mill mark but thats about it. and thats fine. if boston wants to horde their dough thats ok if they want.

i just cant see how they nickel and dime two boston legends, pedro and damon, and now break open the vaults for d mat and drew. they didnt sign damon because of 2 mill a yr more.

imagine the yanks not signing jeter because of 2 mill.

2006-11-13 13:51:49
160.   jakewoods
any other yankee fan kinda happy that they are spending all this dough on guys like jd drew???

id rather have trot nixon any day of the week. now when he got up there even if he was hitting 260 i was still scared he'd drive one.

drew? a guy who has been run out of st lou and atlanta for not being a gamer now replaces one of the ultimate gamers?

thats funny. when hes on the dl in may for a cramp, lets see how boston fans feel.

2006-11-13 13:52:28
161.   jonnystrongleg
158 There were higher bids for the Red Sox when this guy took over. Despite a Boston renaissance and tons of money made and a rival that is spending like crazy, their salary is usually right at the threshold. And the first time they get to spend on a dude when it doesn't count against the cap, they go balls out.

I'll let you judge for yourselves.

2006-11-13 13:56:02
162.   Shaun P
159 I think I can answer your implicit question of "why" - age, likelihood of injury, and they didn't want to be stuck paying lots of cash to sub-par players at the end of both contracts. For the same reason, I don't see them going offering Drew more than 4 years, and so I don't see Drew signing with the Sox.

Now, DM is another story. He's young and he's (supposed to be) a front-line ace #1 pitcher. If there's anything you overpay for, that's it right there. Now he maybe has some mileage on his arm, but that could be controlled, and I'm guessing their risk-reward assessment went much more to the reward side. It didn't with Damon and Pedro (and Lowe), and that's why they didn't resign those guys.

2006-11-13 13:58:19
163.   RIYank
I think Drew is worth a bundle -- better batting that Damon (higher slugging pct., for one thing). But I agree with Shaun, Boston isn't going to go for a long term deal with a 31 year old outfielder. And, he's a corner outfielder, so he has to hit better than a centerfielder to be worth as much.
2006-11-13 13:58:30
164.   Yankee Fan In Boston
160 i am happy about the apparent spree. it serves 2 purposes:

a) it should silence those who whine about yankee spending

2) it will tie up sox $$$$.


if they go after lugo and a closer, too... heaven!

2006-11-13 14:02:54
165.   Shaun P
161 Oh, I think there was a conspiracy re: Henry taking over the Red Sox, and plenty of shennanigans. But that conspiracy (shennanigan number 1) was to get the Expos under MLB control, for MLB to move the team and sell them for a very tidy profit. That meant letting Loria buy the Marlins, and that meant letting Henry buy the Sox.

Shennanigan number 2 is what turned me against Tom Reilly, former Attorney General of MA (who was thoroughly defeated in his bid to become governor). Because the Yawkey Trust, as a charitable fund, owned the Red Sox at the time, and because the Trust took a lower bid (the Dolans put in a significantly higher bid than Henry), Reilly's office was supposed to investigate things to make sure there was no funny business going on. I believe he made a stink about it at first in the papers, but I don't think anything was ever investigated. I'm sure nothing ever will, either.

2006-11-13 14:18:15
166.   rbj
Wow. $40+ mil to talk, and hopefully another $40+ mil to sign.
Even if Matsuzaka is worth that dough, it should handicap the Red Sox with the rest of their payroll. Meanwhile, the Yankees have a cheap WormKiller and cheaper Hughes & Clippard waiting in the wings.
And Yankees still have Matsui for the Japanese market - with Wang for the Taiwanese market.
2006-11-13 14:18:54
167.   wsporter
The schadenfreude potential on this is monumental. A plus 5.50 era with a plus 8.00 at the Fens would do my evil little heart no end of good. Jesus, I am one mean old SOB.

Of course if he lands with us then all bets are off and of course it's Robin Roberts, the early years.

2006-11-13 14:20:27
168.   Simone
159 Don't forget all the stink the Red Sox made over the $13 million they needed to complete the trade for A-Rod. As if they were so poor that they couldn't just pony up the extra cash.
2006-11-13 14:24:12
169.   wsporter
166 Yes, and now apparently the Yankees also have Britton for the "Supper" market.

Sorry ... I saw it laying there and I had to pick it up. I know I shouldn't have.

2006-11-13 14:28:37
170.   yankz
I think some of us are giving Boras too much credit. I'd bet that even if Boy Wonder slept with his wife, he'd still negotiate with him if it meant getting the fattest 10%.

Also, call me petty, but I hope DM tanks if he's a Sox.

2006-11-13 14:46:50
171.   Zack
For all the talk of this restricting the Sox payroll, well, it won't. Remember, only the contract counts against the payroll. The 40 mill posting fee is outside the tax, and its money the Sox have to spend, so only count the 40 or so mill. that they are actually going to use on the contract against their figures.

Granted, if they sign DM at, say, 4/50, Drew at 4/50, and Lugo at 3/30, thats 40 Million per year extra salary alone right there for three positions...

2006-11-13 15:05:36
172.   Raf
65 Off the top of my head;

1b: Mo Vaughn
2b: Luis Sojo
3b: Charlie Hayes
c: Sal Fasano
rf: Babe Ruth
lf: John Kruk
cf: Lance Berkman
dh: Cecil Fielder

SP: David Wells
SP: Rick Reuschel
SP: CC Sabathia
SP: Jeff Juden
SP: Curt Schilling

RP: Juan Berenguer
RP: Terry Forster
RP: Charlie Kerfeld
RP: David West

CL: Bob Wickman

2006-11-13 15:45:57
173.   Zack
You simply cannot have an overweight all-star team and not have Rich "El Guapo" Garcis on it.
2006-11-13 16:38:14
174.   nemecizer
Okay, I've been thinking about it....

If the BoSox do get Matsuzaka we need to do something about this. I propose that 100 of us infiltrate Fenway the first day Matsuzaka pitches dressed in Red Sox clothing and boo him no matter what he does in order to destroy his confidence. That way he will feel he has dishonored his team and, if we keep it, he falls on a steak knife before the All Star break.

Of course, we'll have to look like die hard Sox fans to get others in the stadium to cheer with us so I suggest that we don't bathe for 3 weeks, knock out a few teeth, and smoke enough crack to knock down our IQs by about 50 points.

Who is with me?

2006-11-13 16:50:46
175.   jakewoods
The only people who think Drew is worth more than Damon are stat freaks.

Not actual people who watch actual games. Damon is a gamer. Drew? He can barely play 100 games a year. He got ran out of St Louis and Atlanta. Not exactly two hard towns to play ball in.

What happens when he misses a week in May? How will the Boston fans treat him?

Something tells me they're going to be begging for Trot back.

2006-11-13 16:52:09
176.   jakewoods
Call me petty about D Mat too now.


From Gammons:

It makes one a little concerned about Daisuke Matsuzaka because he made but nine starts in 2002 and threw 18 complete games in 2006.

2006-11-13 16:57:31
177.   wsporter
Speaking of schadenfreude, Hanley Ramirez is the NL 2006 Rookie of the Year!
2006-11-13 17:14:37
178.   RIYank
175 Oh, jeez. You mean, J D Drew produces more runs for his team, but he's no David Ekstein? Speaking of whom: there are a couple of amusing Drew-related entries up at

177 Keep it comin', wsporter, I'm seriously in the mood for schadenfreude. Where's Rilkefan, I bet he could help.

2006-11-13 17:15:13
179.   Yu-Hsing Chen
176 I was pretty sure he made only 9 starts in 02 because of an international tournement that conflicted with the Japanese pro season, in fact i'm pretty positive it was the Asian olympics qualitifer. (where Japan and Taiwan qualified , Taiwain getting a thrilling walk off 10th inning win against Korea that was eventrually the decisive game while Japan winning all 3 qualifing games)
2006-11-13 17:25:15
180.   RIYank
179 Sounds like a good explanation.
It's not clear to me why Gammons was 'concerned' in the first place.
2006-11-13 17:47:56
181.   mehmattski
178 If you want to cross sports for Boston schadenfreude, you can always remember the Jets' glorious victory over the Patriots yesterday. And right now Boston College is getting thwomped by Vermont on the basketball court.
2006-11-13 18:12:43
182.   jakewoods
I'm hoping hes more Irabu than Nomo.
2006-11-13 18:20:56
183.   yankz
I'm hoping he's more Pavano.
2006-11-13 18:21:11
184.   RIYank
181 That doesn't work for me. Hard to explain.
I'm here in the middle of Patriot Nation. When the Pats lose to the Jets, it's a little like the Yankees losing to the Red Sox: deep down everyone knows it's just an aberration. Order will eventually be restored. Sure, there's complaining, there's gnashing of teeth, since the loss of a single game is a lot more significant in the NFL than in MLB, but it's not a really good schadenfreude opportunity. Not enough schaden for any serious freude.
2006-11-13 18:39:42
185.   3rd gen yankee fan
179 180 See that's the thing, all these rumours are striking me as news-for-news'-sake. I'm going to be extremely skeptical of any unsourced information this offseason. The SI article just quoted ESPN, for pete's sake (hi pete), which didn't have a named source in the first place. Screw ESPN and the Sux and whoever's trying to mess with Yankee fans' heads. As mentioned above Cashman is crafty and he's our man. We'll find out when we find out.
2006-11-13 18:48:08
186.   jakewoods
Well its not just one loss

its back to back losses and its 3 losses at home and its the fact that they havent beaten a team with a winning record except the jets?

not the pats yr

2006-11-13 18:57:27
187.   Shaun P
181 HA! Good. I hope the Catamounts thrash the hated Eagles. Ever since those #%()&$#* left the Big East, I've had no use for them. And Virginia Tech and Miami too. All their misfortune serves 'em right.

177 MFD, I can add some schadenfreude - the Red Sox are in desparate need of a shortstop!

Wait, here's more - Anibal Sanchez will cost a fraction of what Josh Beckett will next year, and will put up better numbers even after adjusting for league and park effects! Again. Oh, and he's four years younger.

2006-11-13 19:06:22
188.   Shaun P
187 And thrash the hated Eagles the Catamounts did! At BC, no less.
2006-11-13 19:11:30
189.   RIYank
Thanks for the update, Yoda.
2006-11-13 19:12:43
190.   Sliced Bread
Well, that's the way the gyroball bounces.
Gotta tip your midnight blue interlocking NY cap to the team from New England for boldly playing a winning hand.
It will be tough for us Yankees fans who coveted Matsuzaka to watch him perform in a Red Sox uniform, but I still hope he's as electrifying as we've been expecting him to be. A pitcher as talented as that is good for the game, no matter who he plays for.
2006-11-13 19:13:59
191.   Shaun P
189 And remember, the 9:30 show is completely different from the 7:30 show.
2006-11-13 19:17:49
192.   brockdc
175 The era of "Nancy" Drew is upon us.
2006-11-13 19:24:48
193.   wsporter
187 Yeah, it's a schadenfreude parade. Where is my joy when I need it? I'm gloating but I'm not joyful. Where is the joy? This just blows. I knew it, there it is – Angst. Damn.

F'ing irony - my pain, their joy. Blech.


2006-11-13 19:27:15
194.   mikeplugh

Matsuzaka missed most of 2002 with a non-structural arm injury. It was akin to a VERY serious case of dead arm, probably a result of throwing 150-160 pitches on multiple occasions over the 2-3 years prior. He hasn't thrown that many pitches since, and has actually learned to pitch very effectively.

There's no use in wishing Matsuzaka will suck. He won't. He's going to be a tremendously gifted starter for the Red Sox (or wherever they trade him, if that's the case). I'm disappointed as a Matsuzaka fan, but the Red Sox still aren't better than the Yankees, and it's tough to say whether this one move will make them better than the Blue Jays either. Remember, Schilling isn't going to last forever, Beckett is still a huge question mark, Papelbon has never been a Major League starter, and they have no closer. They also have holes at 2B, SS, and RF. Will Varitek continue to stink it up? Will Lowell have another decent year? Who's at first base?

I still like the Yankees to win the division, and I also like the wild card to come out of the AL Central. Imagine if the Red Sox get Matsuzaka, spend $100 million and still don't make the playoffs. Sweet, sweet revenge.

2006-11-13 19:29:30
195.   mikeplugh
194 He may have also pitched in the Asian-qualifying tournament, but he had an injury as well....
2006-11-13 19:31:46
196.   Yu-Hsing Chen
194 ahh my bad.

I know that Matsuzaka probably will be damn good, and i agree that even if he is, it doesn't really completely solve the problems for the Red Sox.

2006-11-13 19:32:43
197.   RIYank
Mike, you're pretty sure the Sox will sign him?

Find us another Japanese pitcher. Japanese Pedro is gone; can we find Japanese Andy Pettitte?

2006-11-13 19:40:06
198.   jakewoods
i have no idea if he'll translate to mlb but he has a great shot.

now i just hope he doesnt since hes now a rival.

2006-11-13 19:48:33
199.   C2Coke
100 million dollars, wow! To think Wang had already proved himself this past season with 19 wins and will still be getting approximately $400,000 next year.

Matsuzaka may be excellent, but how much more wins can he get in a year? I am saying this redardless of which team is getting him. Even if the Yankees are getting him, it actually just kind of prove how the market can never be fair.

2006-11-13 19:50:50
200.   Shaun P
197 What about Igawa?

194 Mike, thanks for all the info you've given to us on DM. If the Sox have him, I'll hate seeing him pitch in that uniform, but I get the feeling I will really enjoy seeing him pitch, in no small part because of everything I've learned about DM from you.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-11-13 19:58:53
201.   Stormer Sports
Look, if the Sox sign him, it will cost well over 100 million dollars after all is said and done. That is without the considerable incentives he is likely to earn should he succeed. This is Boras after all.

It's what, 45 million to talk, and a likely 5 or 6 year deal at better than Zito/Schmidt money. Boras has said openly that he expects Zito to sign a 5 year 80 million deal or better. Matsuzaka will surely demand more than that. The bottom line is that it's too big a risk, and a bad move for a guy with some injury problems and who is accustomed to pitching once per week.

That, along with the borderline illegal posting fee (Some of you may remember how Soriano's career was shortened when he was basically held hostage in Asia and had to find resolution through the courts while basically having to defect) is bad for baseball, and I hope, bad for the Red Sox.

Retroactive aggression dated 8/31/06 won't pan out, and theo won't be there in 2008.

2006-11-13 20:09:59
202.   jakewoods
just think

they're going to pay him pretty much 20 mill a yr for 5 years

if hes not a cy young winner than is it worth it?

ask the mets how kaz matsui worked out

2006-11-13 20:25:08
203.   ric
boston banter? patriots? bc? pathetic.
2006-11-13 20:25:32
204.   RIYank
200 Yeah, Igawa, and he's a lefty. Okay. He was posted yesterday? Almost all the shizz I can find on him is in Japanese.

Stormer, I agree, if they sign him. If. My bet is they don't and Boras gets a nice bidding war next year. Much better for Boras, more money for Matsuzaka, and no cost to John Henry.

2006-11-13 20:31:50
205.   vockins
I think this move by the Sox was completely insane.

And, Brian Cashman, if you are reading this, for the love of all that is holy, DO NOT SIGN BARRY ZITO.

2006-11-13 20:39:38
206.   OldYanksFan
Matsuzaka update
2006-11-13 20:48:09
207.   Stormer Sports

Agreed. But what about Matsuzaka? I don't suppose anyone gives a rat's ass about him. What if he gets hurt between now and then? I was incensed some years ago when I learned what had happened to Soriano over there. The so called masogininstic "democracy" that is Japan should do the right thing and allow Matsuzaka to negotiate with any team, anywhere. If he is owed money on a contract or the team has "rights" to him--I quite frankly don't give a shit what words they use to describe it--then the team should be compensated and he should be released. It's horribly unfair and amounts to endentured servitude. They are grossly underpaid while being forced before inherently corrupt arbitrators--like the one Soriano initially went before--to seek a fraction of what they should be being paid. Matsuzaka has no choice, if the US would even allow him to leave and sign here, which we wouldn't, he would surely find family members back in Japan breaking big rocks into little rocks.

The Red Sox better sure as hell get a deal done with Matsuzaka. Sending him back there would be very sad, but truthfully, not out of charachter for the team which waited almost fifteen years after Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby first set foot on a Major League field to sign a black player, and have consistently, until recently, signed by far the fewest numbers of minority players in MLB. Sorry, but an anglocentric city like Boston needs to be constantly reminded why they have shit the bed as often as they have. It is the curse of racism, not the curse of the Babe.

2006-11-13 20:53:02
208.   randym77
USA Today is also reporting that Boston won:

The Boston Red Sox won the bidding to negotiate with celebrated Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka of the Seibu Lions, according to a person involved in the bidding process.

Baseball and the Japanese commissioner's office will make simultaneous announcements at 8 p.m. EST Tuesday (10 a.m. Tokyo time Wednesday), baseball spokesman Pat Courtney said Monday at the major league general managers' meetings in Florida.

Drat. I guess it might be worth it to them, to get a foothold in the Asian market. The Yanks already have that foothold, with Matsui and Wang.

2006-11-13 21:02:14
209.   ric
The Red Sox better sure as hell get a deal done with Matsuzaka. Sending him back there would be very sad, but truthfully, not out of charachter for the team which waited almost fifteen years after Jackie Robinson and Larry Doby first set foot on a Major League field to sign a black player, and have consistently, until recently, signed by far the fewest numbers of minority players in MLB. Sorry, but an anglocentric city like Boston needs to be constantly reminded why they have shit the bed as often as they have. It is the curse of racism, not the curse of the Babe.

that, sir, is an incredibly stupid statement. i do not know how you can somehow link a failure to sign matsuzaka to racism in boston. i take offense and i wish bad fortune to you and your family.

2006-11-13 21:08:04
210.   randym77
206 Hmmm. Pete didn't believe the Boston rumors a couple of days ago. Now, he does.

And he doesn't think the Yanks will go after Zito, either.

>> And, no, I do not think this means the Yankees will go after Barry Zito with guns a blazin.' Past history (Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright) has to have taught them something about over-hyped free-agent starters. <<

That's good...I guess. But our starting rotation is going to need something next year. Who are they going to get, if not Zito or Matsuzaka?

2006-11-13 21:11:14
211.   Zack
Okay, keep it civil now...

Mike, any info on Igawa? I know hes a year older than DM, a lefty, and has pretty good #s, he worth it? Seems to be flying under the radar...

2006-11-13 21:29:10
212.   Yu-Hsing Chen
Igawa would be ok if we can get him on a relatively short deal. (2 year with option on 3rd type)
2006-11-13 23:13:58
213.   pistolpete
203 You have a problem with the topics in here, ric?
2006-11-14 01:03:17
214.   mikeplugh

To Stormer:

The important thing to remember is that while Matsuzaka may not have the freedom that a player in the West has, and while he may experience real physical abuse with the number of pitcher he throws, he loves his country. He loves pitching in Japan. Most players do. You have guys here that could play in the Majors if they wanted to, but they elect to stay? Why? Because Japan is a wonderful country to live in. There are virtually no poor. There is universal health care. There is a culture thousands of years old that is comfortable and familiar. Japanese food is not oily and has helped people live to be 120 years old in some places. The point is, Japan is home. He is Japanese. He wants to try his hand at the highest level of competition in the world, so he has asked to play in the Majors. If the Japanese players were so pissed about the system, they'd form a stronger union and strike, but that is unJapanese, and you probably won't see it happen anytime soon. It is part of life to accept the things you can't control......

To ric:

You may disagree with Stormer, but wishing ill on anyone's family is a disgrace. You should genuinely feel ashamed at yourself for losing perspective on baseball.

As to Igawa, he's good. He'll be a solid Major Leaguer. The Yankees should bid. They shouldn't over bid, but he'll be slightly better than league average, and could easily win a playoff game or two.

The guy you will hopefully see in pinstripes after next season, is Japan's #2 pitcher, Koji Uehara. Unlike Matsuzaka, he will be a free agent. He is the pitcher that teamed with Matsuzaka to win the WBC, and always gets the tough international matchups. He's a little older, and there are a few health issues, but he is very very good. He was drafted by the Angels out of college, but he chose to pitch on Matsui's Giants club.

The Yankees should aggressively pursue him. If he can stay healthy, he is like a slightly better version of Brad Radke. He never, ever walks hitters and is very strong in big games. I'm starting an Uehara Watch blog very soon, so you can get the background and follow him next year. Stay tuned.

2006-11-14 03:40:26
215.   yankee23
209 ric, I strongly agree with mike on this one. Take as much offense as you like, but to wish ill upon another's family for a statement? Seems like a bit too much to me.
2006-11-14 04:01:57
216.   randym77
The Daily News says Boston bid upward of $50 million.

>>Sources say the Mets finished second in the sweepstakes with a bid of around $38 million to Matsuzaka's team, the Seibu Lions, which, much to their shock and dismay, was a very distant second. The Mets believed they'd made a winning bid - and why shouldn't they have, given that the last time a superstar Japanese player of this caliber, Ichiro Suzuki, was posted for play in the majors, the winning bid was $13 million?<<

The Yankees supposedly bid $30 million.

2006-11-14 05:02:38
217.   Simone
The Red Sox are going to sign Matsuzaka. They need him and they bid all that money. If they don't get a deal done, their name will be mud in the Japanese market and Bud would be furious. The Red Sox and Boras will have a tough negotiation and the deal will get done. Matsuzaka is going to be a good MLB pitcher.

214 Mike, the other Japanese pitchers that you mentioned seem to have good potential. Hopefully, the Yankees are thinking the same way.

2006-11-14 05:04:55
218.   wsporter
Blind auctions are amazing things. They reveal a lot about "truth". The truth is these teams must think Matsusaka is pretty good and has a great chance of being good here. The Sawx may have calculated this auction rather inneficiently but I think their strategy is/was reasonable. Make a huge bid, blow everyone out of the water, run a tough negotiation. If he signs great. If not, they have only transation costs sunk in this venture. Not much of a price to pay in exchange for a chance to dance with Mr. Boras on this.

Oh well, what now? Zito? That'll be a lot to pay for a number 3.

2006-11-14 05:09:49
219.   Simone
The fun part of this whole thing is seeing how Red Sox fans rationalize their owners suddenly spending money after years of accepting their arguments for being frugality (to be kind) with their payroll all these years. Red Sox Nation is happy, but in shock.
2006-11-14 05:11:56
220.   joejoejoe
211 Kei Igawa can be seen pitching 1 inning at the link below. He looks like a bit like Tom Glavine with a slightly more deceptive motion to me.

Here's Kei 'Iron Nerves' Igawa's official site.

And his profile.

He looks better than any starter not named Moose or Wang. Bid away, Ca$hmoney!

2006-11-14 05:12:50
221.   joejoejoe
211 Kei Igawa can be seen pitching 1 inning at the link below. He looks like a bit like Tom Glavine with a slightly more deceptive motion to me.

Here's Kei 'Iron Nerves' Igawa's official site.

And his profile.

He looks better than any starter not named Moose or Wang. Bid away, Ca$hmoney!

2006-11-14 05:13:15
222.   joejoejoe
2006-11-14 06:00:52
223.   RIYank
I think Stormer and his family will be okay. And ric appears to be a hit-and-run driver.

208 I read that USA Today article and I thought their source was ESPN, not an independent one. Read it carefully and see if you agree.

Simone 217 and wsporter 218 seem to have different ideas of how costly it will be to the Sox if they fail to sign Matsuzaka having won the bid. I'm with wsporter on this. As long as Theo maintains plausible deniability, some may fume about it but there won't be any substantial consequences.

Thanks to all for the Igawa info. I'd be pretty happy signing him for say five years, $25 million. Sure, two years would be better, but he's only 27. Then snag Koji Uehara next year, and with a brilliant Ca$hman move here, a finally ready for prime time Phillips there, we got ourselves a Bloomingdale's staff for a WalMart price.

2006-11-14 19:05:46
224.   Count Zero
According to AP it was $51.1 million! Add in a minimum of 3x$15 million...$96 million for three years = $26 million per year.

Like I said a couple of days ago -- Theo is "all in". ^_^ Let's see how much he has left to go after Lugo and/or Drew.

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