Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Brrr Stick 'em, Ha-huh-Ha Stick 'Em
2006-10-24 05:52
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

So that 'splains why the Gambler's been on a roll. Lester Hayes ain't got nuthin' on you, babe.

Comments (80)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-10-24 06:59:23
1.   joejoejoe
Human Beat Belth!
2006-10-24 07:18:59
2.   Chyll Will

Next time he visits the Stadium, they should play either that or Jailhouse Rap while he's warming up.

2006-10-24 07:20:03
3.   Sliced Bread
Verducci: The Gambler Driven To Cheat By A-Rod

San Francisco Chronicle: Rogers To Grand Jury: "Trainer Told Me It Was Maple Syrup, Not Pine-Tar"

NY Post: A-Rod Steals Orphan From Malawi

2006-10-24 07:27:07
4.   Chyll Will
3 Then what the hell does he put on his pancakes?
2006-10-24 07:29:46
5.   Sliced Bread
International House Of Pine-tar
2006-10-24 07:54:05
6.   Chyll Will
5 Alley-oop! >;)

I went to an IHOP in Atlanta while visiting a friend. While we were talking, our order came and I started pouring syrup on the pancakes. I thought it was rather odd that the pancakes were soaking up the syrup so quickly, as did my friend, but we said nothing.

The waitress then came by with a pitcher and asked if we'd like some syrup for our pancakes.

"What? If that's the syrup..."

"I thought it was a New York thing", my friend says, "I was wondering why you were pouring coffee on your pancakes."

2006-10-24 08:05:50
7.   JL25and3
4 Marijuana, like Bill Lee.
2006-10-24 08:06:24
8.   3rd gen yankee fan
Heh, yeah this is funny and all, but ahem, Rogers beat the Yanks in the same incredible way, and although it's way too late to look at his fingers closely, it's not too late to wonder if he beat the Yanks in the same fashion. I dunno guys I mean this was a playoff game and our hitters couldn't figure him out. I don't like cheaters anytime, and maybe it's too late to whine about what's past.

I gotta travel today so excuse me if I can't reply to this conversation. Later.

2006-10-24 08:10:25
9.   Chyll Will
8 When you get a chance, look at the previous post's (yesterday) comments. I submitted a theory in comment #44.
2006-10-24 08:11:58
10.   Chyll Will
7 Spacecakes, mmm-boy!
2006-10-24 08:14:49
11.   Bama Yankee
6 ROFL. That's a good one Chyll.
2006-10-24 08:30:17
12.   C2Coke
5, 6 Really enjoyed that laugh in the morning. Very funny.

I guess to the least, Kenny Rogers picked the right time to cheat.

2006-10-24 08:54:07
13.   Mike T
So is MLB just going to let this go?
2006-10-24 09:06:48
14.   Chyll Will
13 Sure, unless it's proven that he's been doing more than just making his palm sticky (see J'accuse on Griddle). I'll say it right now, if he's juicing and gets caught, the World Series will be a National Afterthought.

Myabe Kirk Jones should let Kenny use his knickname, "Sticky Fingaz"

2006-10-24 09:09:44
15.   Comrade Al
8 Exactly. Furthermore, it was a pivotal game that was close until the late innings. Add to that the ridiculous call at third in the 3-run 2nd inning and you get the picture.
2006-10-24 09:20:00
16.   Comrade Al
9 Doesn't explain Kenny Rogers' transformation into Sandy Koufax.
2006-10-24 09:23:56
17.   Peter
8 15 I've been thinking the same thing as well. No use dwelling on it, I suppose, since it's not going to chance the outcome of anything. But I still wonder what might have happened...

And it's also too late for this, but since Comrade Al brought it up -- something that's been bothering me about that call at 3rd is that Torre never left the dugout to protest the call.

2006-10-24 09:27:29
18.   Comrade Al
17 What would Torre's argument have accomplished?

As far as I am concerned, this fiasco invalidates the entire post-season. It's as if this is 1994 again except they are going through the motions of playing the games.

2006-10-24 09:42:46
19.   Peter
18 Most likely, nothing. It's just something managers do when they are, or perceive themselves to be, at the wrong end of a bad call. I'm not saying he should've got in anyone's face or kicked dirt on their shins, but just let it be known that he thought it was the wrong call. When people say the Yankees looked lifeless, that's just one example that comes to my mind. But like I said before, it's too late for all this.
2006-10-24 09:50:25
20.   Cliff Corcoran
18 In that case, invalidate some of those Yankee championships from the early '60s, because Whitey Ford was scuffing the ball. This sort of thing is very common. The only thing unusual here is that Rogers has been so bad about hiding it (CardNilly links to photos of the same brown smudge on Rogers' thumb from July of this year:
2006-10-24 09:53:45
21.   Chyll Will
16, 18, 19 Are you implying that they're all in on it? Is it something that effective pitchers have been doing discreetly for some time? And maybe there's some other things in the system (not necessarily 'roids) that are being passed around and not talked about because they're helping more than a few other teams? And is the issue more or less Sticky Fingaz Gambler being a dumbass for getting exposed?

Or, more likely, am I just a crackpot?

2006-10-24 09:54:41
22.   brockdc
19 Who knows? If Joe storms out of the dugout, gets in the ump's face, and gets tossed, maybe the players would at least play with a sense of indignation, as opposed to seeming torpor.
2006-10-24 09:58:13
23.   Chyll Will
20 Thanks, Cliff, for your fine extra-sensory perception >;)
2006-10-24 10:01:41
24.   Shaun P
20 Whitey and Gaylord Perry are considered to be jolly, charming 'characters' who's cheating is a funny story. There is no talk about wiping their records from the books. Because, after all (wink, wink), everyone does it. You're just not supposed to get caught.

Someone please explain to me how this type of cheating is different from PED use. Both are against the rules. Both affect the outcome of games. Both are cheating. Why is one acceptable and the other not?

2006-10-24 10:03:22
25.   Comrade Al
21 I am not one for conspiracy theories. Here is what we know:
1. Kenny Rogers most likely won the pivotal games in the Yankee and A series by cheating.

2. The bad call at third was critical in the pivotal game in the Yankee series (as was the Bernie foul HR, but that's baseball).

3. Pitchers have been doing this for a long time, but they usually got tossed for it - see Niekro, J.

4. You cannot state for certain that the Tigers are not being helped by steroids - look at their catcher.

22 When a team is not hitting, it always seems that the players are unmotivated, and we know why the team wasn't hitting.

2006-10-24 10:06:01
26.   Chyll Will
22 And letting teammates pour coffee on their pancakes, thinking it's maple syrup...
2006-10-24 10:17:30
27.   wsporter
24 MFD maybe it's because it's not against the law to possess or distribute grease, emory boards, silicone or a scuffed baseball. Right or wrong I think a lot of the difference in perception has to do with our society's conservative views on the subject of controlled substances.
2006-10-24 10:26:23
28.   Chyll Will
24 Mind you, I'm being cynical, but I believe the moral outrage that comes with PED use is based on economic advantage/disadvantage, as opposed to the ingenuity of scuffing/sticking the ball. Congress, MLB and the media were looking for huge stars with evidence of PED use as opposed to the journeyman or benchwarmer simply because of the attention such stars would receive. People in general respond more when the person in the spotlight has a higher profile.

Who remembers, without looking it up, who was the first player to be suspended under the new steroid policy? Has that been mentioned nearly as much as Bonds, Giambi, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, et. al...

Then, we celebrate the tricksters who are also clever enough to not get caught. Tom Sawyer is the penultimate trickster of American folklore, and anyone who does something wrong, but cleverly is often heralded as a Tom Sawyer-type; the kind you just shake your head and say, "boys will be boys."

And then, of course there are clumsy and get caught. Even so, the PED vs Clever rule tends to apply, according to the stature of the person caught and the situation they are caught in. There was only headshaking when Joe Neikro got caught flinging an emory board in a regular game. Don Larsen doing the same thing during his perfect game would destroy the game itself. Kenny Sticky Fingaz is not Don Larsen, but he's ultimately in a similar situation, compounded by the shadow of steroids suspicion. If one thing led to another, it would destroy the game 25; no one wants to go there.

That's my cynical response, not my crackpot one >;)

2006-10-24 10:28:59
29.   Chyll Will
27 As always, concise and eloquent. My compliments!
2006-10-24 10:29:48
30.   Comrade Al
28 And then there is the case of the '51 Giants stealing signs from beyond the centerfield wall ...
2006-10-24 10:42:18
31.   Chyll Will
30 See how long Thompson waited to admit it, even though Ralph Terry and the Giants were crying foul practically from the moment he hit it (seems that only Terry never let go of his suspicion, though he accepted the loss). Mark "Deep Throat" Felt, too...
2006-10-24 10:52:28
32.   Bama Yankee
28 Joe Niekro got a 10 game suspension for having that emory board...

Not to mention that Jay Howell was suspended 2 games for having pine tar in his glove during the 1988 NLCS and Brendan Donnelly was also suspended last season for having pine tar on his glove.

Other suspensions for similar incidents:
S. Sosa 2003 7 games Corked bat
B. Moehler 1999 10 days Sandpaper
W. Guerrero 1997 8 games Corked bat
C. Sabo 1996 7 games Corked bat
A. Belle 1994 6 days, 7 games Corked bat
J. Howell 1988 2 games Pine tar
K. Gross 1987 10 days Sandpaper
B. Hatcher 1987 8 games Corked bat
J. Niekro 1987 10 days Emery board
G. Perry 1982 10 days Spitball
R. Honeycutt 1980 10 days Thumbtack

I'm curious why Kenny Rogers can get caught "pine tar handed" and get away with it and yet these others were suspended. My guess is that the umps do not want to have something like a suspension change the outcome of a World Serious. It is similar to the way the all huddle together now to make sure they get the calls correct. As opposed to years past when they would just be stubborn and not ask for help and thus let a bad call stand.

Or maybe Kenny really does have a deal with the devil...

2006-10-24 10:53:54
33.   Shaun P
27 28 You both make excellent points that I did not consider. I'm usually a very gray person, but when it comes to cheating in sports, to me at least it sclear. There are rules, and breaking those rules = cheating.

I wasn't alive when Whitey pitched, but I know that he would have driven me nuts. Its just not right, and it makes me sad to know that it has a place in baseball.

2006-10-24 11:21:41
34.   wsporter
33 MFD, do you remember Gaylord Perry? He used to drive everyone nuts. He was the most idiosyncratic guy in the world; he touched everything in order to create the idea that he was doing something to the ball. The idea that he created in the batters mind that he was loading the ball was far more devastating than anything he actually put on it. The umps would periodically do everything but perform a cavity search on the guy while on the mound.

Perry is a confessed cheater and a Hall of Famer. I guess in some ways the powers that be really do feel that if you're not cheating you're not really trying. I dislike the idea that his story is celebrated as colorful rather than derided as shameful. But it's just my opinion and folks who don't feel that way are obviously entitled to their own point of view. I do think it's hysterically funny that the good folks at Vaseline had more class than the Hall of Fame and refused his offer to act as a spokesman for their Petroleum Jelly.

2006-10-24 11:25:12
35.   Chyll Will
32 I honestly think it's deeper than that, because then the other team would have to be complicit in the idea that it would change the outcome if he were suspended. Why wouldn't they want that, especially if it changes it to their own advantage? There's something we're either missing or not being told. When you eliminate the obvious, whatever's left is the truth.
2006-10-24 11:40:35
36.   Chyll Will
34 Interesting how the least likeable player on Bama's list got the least amount of suspension time. I was going to add a point that Perry was considered a likeable character, but considering that he was very well travelled and my aforementioned point, I wouldn't know and it doesn't make sense. Therefore, I think your point about the powers that be is very valid, even if they would be loathe to admit it.
2006-10-24 11:41:14
37.   Bama Yankee
35 Like I said yesterday, the umps asked him to "wash that dirt off" his hands. I speculated then and I think it has been confirmed that not only did the umps know that he had pine tar, LaRussa also knew that it was pine tar.

The umps did not want the game to change on something like ejecting Kenny (not to mention that he would probably get suspended). So they just asked him to clean it up.

LaRussa was between a rock and a hard place. He had to do something since it was so obvious that even the dunces at FOX noticed it. I think he just wanted to get inside Kenny's head to disrupt his concentration. He could not make too big of a deal over it (i.e. call for the umps to inspect Kenny) because maybe he knew that some of his guys do the same thing (just not as blatant as Rogers) and he did not want to open up that can of worms (or pine tar in this case).

2006-10-24 11:44:10
38.   OldYanksFan
The Yankees might be BAD for baseball, but they sure are good for Fox.

"Overall, that left the first two games averaging a RECORD-LOW of 9.8, down 5 percent from the previous bottom, a 10.3 for the first two games last year."

I know... Have the Yankees play the WS no matter what, and if they win, give the title and trophy to whoever beat them is the ALDS or ALCS.

2006-10-24 11:50:16
39.   Chyll Will
37 Then if that's true, they just opened up a different can. If cheating like that is rampant and acceptable among players and coaches, then whay else are we missing? How many casual fans will find this acceptable? Is basball's credibility in general in question? Do you see where I'm going with this? Maybe this is why they didn't get into it. Very Disappointing.
2006-10-24 11:51:44
40.   dianagramr

winner! we have a winner!

2006-10-24 11:55:31
41.   Comrade Al
40 comments and no mention of George Brett. I am disappointed.
2006-10-24 11:55:52
42.   Comrade Al
40 Wait, that was 41 comments ... infinite loop.
2006-10-24 11:59:08
43.   wsporter
41 Some things are simply not discussed in polite society. :-)
2006-10-24 12:11:47
44.   Yankee Fan In Boston
or shoeless joe and that other memorable world series scandal.
2006-10-24 12:13:20
45.   Bama Yankee
39 I see where you are going with it and I agree that some people will be turned off by all this. However, some people will also find it interesting and possibly tune in just because of it.

I have already noticed this in my office. Some people who are not even casual baseball fans have brought it up and have asked me about it. One guy even came into my office with some kind of brown stain on his hand (not sure where he got that from and I don't think I want to know).

I am sure that more than a few people will tune in the next time that Kenny pitches to see if he is using pine tar and to see what happens.

I'm not sure about the credibility issue. As mentioned in earlier posts, even though it is also cheating, people seem to think the PED issue is worse and baseball seems to have survived that issue so far (not to mention the 1994 strike that I thought might destroy the game).

2006-10-24 12:25:27
46.   Bama Yankee
Is it possible that this is a non-issue to the players, managers and umps because it really does not give the pitchers that much of an advantage?

It is one thing to add something to the baseball that changes the movement and it is something else to just give the pitcher the ability to grip it better. Since both sides do it maybe they figure that it evens out or maybe it doesn't really do that much for the pitcher and therefore they feel it is okay.

I would think that it would give the pitcher and advantage especially when the ball is cold and wet, but if that is the case why would the batters (who have to know about it) not be screaming about it when they see someone doing it?

Maybe it only violates the letter of the rule, but not the spirit of it?

2006-10-24 12:38:32
47.   Yankee Fan In Boston
on a decidedly lighter note, has announced that Mariano Rivera has been awarded the DHL delivery man of the year award...

...which is nice.

2006-10-24 12:46:15
48.   Chyll Will
47 Yeah. The Yankees' season only ended two weeks ago and already he's dominating in his new job. That, Mo, I'm telling ya...
2006-10-24 12:51:03
49.   Shaun P
46 I think its a non-issue for players and managers exactly because it DOES help the pitchers out, and everyone wants their pitchers be able to use it. Evens the playing field, as you suggest, Bama. Also, players never know when they might change teams these days.

I think the umps have decided to leave well enough alone, unless someone makes a stink about it. That seems to be the umps approach to a lot of things, and whether that's the best way to do it, I don't know.

34 MFD, I don't remember Perry either but I've heard a lot of the stories. Not the Vasoline spokesman one though - good for them! Real-world legalities aside, I can't understand how the same people who laugh at Perry curse Barry Bonds.

Bama, your reasoning in 37 sounds right on to me. It does raise credibility issues, but for me, that's alraedy present because of the inconsistent strike zone. That's another thing that is accepted as "part of the game", but it bugs me a lot more than this whole thing, mostly because it could be more easily dealt with.

2006-10-24 12:52:51
50.   Yankee Fan In Boston
hilarious. i work in a library and my laughing outburst was met with several icy glares.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-10-24 12:56:42
51.   JL25and3
There are a couple of principles that are relevant here.

1. "If you're not cheating, you're not trying." That's the most cynical way of putting it, but it's not that far off. Rogers isn't paid for good sportsmanship or even for playing within the rules; he's paid to help his team win games. If he cheats and gets away with it, he's done his job well.

Of course, he's also taking a significant risk. If he gets caught and suspended, he's hurting his team's chances and doing his job very poorly indeed. In that context, cheating shouldn't be seen as morally inferior, just as an extremely risky option. In most cases, it's not worth that risk.

2. "It ain't cheating if you don't get caught." Really, that's all there is to say about the Yankee game. I don't know if he "won by cheating," just that he won and, probably, cheated. If the Yankees didn't see it and didn't bring it to the ump's attention, well, shame on them.

Frankly, I don't think there really is that big a difference between pine tar and PEDs, except that MLB has been far more hypocritical on the latter. With either one, players who break the rule may help their teams win, but they run the risk of hurting their teams more severely. And with either one, it's pointless to try to change the past.

2006-10-24 13:08:16
52.   JL25and3
34, 49 I remember Perry well. He cheated, but there's no question that the most important aspect of it was psychological. On every pitch he'd touch his fingers to various parts of his uniform and his body, all to get that doubt in the batter's mind. It also became showmanship, which is one of the reasons he's remembered as colorful.

Bobby Murcer, for one, hated him.

When Perry was with the Yankees, I saw him throw a "puffball." He shook the rosin bag gently in his hand to collect as much of it as he could. Then when he threw the pitch the ball would suddenly materialize out of this little cloud of white powder. He only threw it a couple of times before the umps stopped him - but hey, he tried. And it was most entertaining to watch.

2006-10-24 13:20:47
53.   Chyll Will
50 Sorry 'bout that. Next time they ice-grill you, recite to them my patent-pending baseball mantra (in room-tone):

"Catch the ball, throw the ball, hit the ball, eat the ball, tell 'em to kiss your a@$ if necessary, PLAY THE GAME!"

Guaranteed to break the ice at naughty parties >;)

2006-10-24 13:21:26
54.   Bama Yankee
49 Good point. I have heard batters say that they are okay with the pine tar because it helps the pitcher control the ball better and keeps the batters from getting hit as often. But if the batters thought that it gave the pitchers as much advantage as scuffing the ball or adding something to the ball, I wonder if they would be so nonchalant about it?
2006-10-24 13:25:21
55.   YankeeInMichigan
Christine Brennan at has a column on "good cheating and bad cheating" ( She neglects to mention that she is from Michigan.

Another distinction of PEDs is that they are physically (not just morally) dangerous to our children.

As "independent" as the PED testers are, I believe that Bud and Co. have an awful lot of say in who gets tested and when. The last thing MLB wants is for a steroids/amphetemines/pine tar controversy to upstage the world series. As with McGuire, Bonds and rest, baseball will cover up for its high-profile cheaters until the evidence becomes overwhelming. Then they'll throw them under the bus.

2006-10-24 13:27:14
56.   Chyll Will
54 Hal McRae indicated that Rogers was also scuffing the ball, saying he and a crew collected several that were scuffed. Is he making excuses or actually trying to get attention to the cheating issue? Is he right in doing so?
2006-10-24 13:33:16
57.   Chyll Will
55 What do they do to people in Michigan who neglect to mention they're from Michigan? Is that like claiming you're from Brooklyn when you're really from Binghamton?
2006-10-24 13:34:12
58.   Chyll Will
57 ...And is that good or bad cheating?
2006-10-24 13:55:38
59.   randym77
Wow, call me naive. I had no idea this kind of cheating was so common. Judging from the pictures posted, Rogers wasn't doing anything different or special the other night; he always uses pine tar, in big games and small. Just dancing with who brung him.

And if that link Alex posted is correct, everyone cheats, so no one wants to draw too much attention to it. Including the Yankees pitchers, I guess. Wang? Moose? The Unit? Mo? Do they all use pine tar or shaving cream or suntan lotion?

2006-10-24 14:11:41
60.   Shaun P
59 I really, really hope Mo does not. That would be a devastating thing to me.

55 What a line to draw. My wife is a teacher - I'm sure some of her students would love to know that there is such a thing as "good" cheating. Cheating might not physically hurt kids like PEDs do, but isn't the soul ultimately more important than the body? Cheating certainly scars the soul.

2006-10-24 14:26:45
61.   Marcus
The problem I have with this whole Kenny Rogers situation is that regardless of whether pine tar is effective at giving a pitcher an advantage, it is clearly in violation of the rules of the game. Why even have a rule if it's just going to be shrugged off? Get rid of the rule or enforce it.
2006-10-24 14:28:06
62.   Bama Yankee
60 Amen Shaun. I'm not sure I understand what "good" cheating is anyway. It is a slippery slope if we start labeling cheating as "good" and "bad".

If the umps know about it and allow it and now MLB knows about it and allows it, then they should just change the rule to allow pine tar during certain situations (similar to the way they allow you to blow on your hands in cold weather).

2006-10-24 14:43:36
63.   Chyll Will
60 In a baseball game unto itself, cheating ultimately means you either win or lose. When we assign values to the game as we often and naturally do, the implications are more staggering then we're willing to admit.

Somewhere obviously a line is drawn morally in sports where cheating is unacceptable and worthy of punishment. The 1919 Black Sox scandal is the perfect example. To this day, MLB has not and seems to have no intention of reversing that decision.

The motivation of cheaters also is a consideration. Did Pete Rose actually cheat when he bet on baseball games? That's not even the question that has banned him from the game, but whether his betting motivated him to make decisions that would better his own chances. If anything he cheated at gambling when you look at it that way. But again, that begs the question of what he did, whether he simply bet on the games or if he manipulated games to favor a certain outcome. And if so, did he cheat to win all the time or some of the time?

The reason I say this is because it seems that cheating has a moral ambiguity within the baseball community, but what about the communites that sustain themselves on what baseball does? Do the implications only affect the players and the teams, or is there people buried in the desert who knew more about a player's motivation than we would even want to know?

Like Shaun P said, if Mo were cheating, that would be devastating. Not just him, but lots and lots of people who place so much faith in people who play games, through whom we often live vicariously. What do you say to a child that does something "bad" when that child is witness to a brazen attempt at flouting rules or principles you set forth for them? "That happens in life, but don't you do it..." I'm not taking a morally superior stance on this, but I draw the line somewhere when I have to think that "everyone is cheating, so it's no big deal..."

(Maybe I'm wrong about Pete Rose since I haven't read the books, but from a casual standpoint it all seems hypocritical to me.)

2006-10-24 14:45:12
64.   Chyll Will
61, 62 A-men.
2006-10-24 14:45:37
65.   randym77
Good cheating...? Ugh, I hate that term. How can there be good cheating? Does that mean anyone who "plays the game right" is just a schmuck?

I dunno, I can see having some rules on the books that are rarely enforced. Football has a lot of them. They basically give the refs a way to keep things from getting out of hand if someone goes too far. Everyone seems to konw where the line is, even if it's not in the rulebook.

But this pine tar thing doesn't really fit into that category.

And on another subject...why on god's green earth is there so much Raul Mondesi stuff in the Yankees store at I mean, jeez. Mondesi??? I think I'd be more inclined to buy an Andy Phillips autograph than Raul Mondesi.

2006-10-24 14:49:46
66.   Bama Yankee
65 Great point randym, they could probably call holding on every play in the NFL if they wanted to.

Do they have any Karim Garcia stuff at

2006-10-24 14:52:09
67.   randym77
66 LOL! No, no Karim Garcia. I'm so disappointed.
2006-10-24 14:57:34
68.   wsporter
60 MFD, I think we all have to believe in something. If they disappoint you in this I say "shame on them" and not "shame on you".

I have always thought, at least since I was aware that the spitter was at one time legal that guys still try to load the ball. For years I heard the argument that "the spitter really isn't effective so there's no real point in enforcing the rule." Yet if it's not effective, why the rule?

If it really does give the pitcher an advantage they actually need I'd say recognize the need exists and that the spitball tactic is effective. Recognize then that some "legal " edge needs to be given to the pitchers. Why not enforce the rule and do something like raise the mound 6 inches or so. Either that or stick a tub of goo behind the mound (other than D. Wells) and let 'em spitball away legally.

The way things are now though is a mockery. Institutionalized contempt for established rules is a dangerous thing. At some point someone needs to ask "what is the purpose of the rule and does the rule serve that purpose?" If it doesn't serve the purpose it is designed to it either needs to be changed or dropped, not ignored. In my opinion that's the right thing to do.

2006-10-24 14:58:00
69.   Comrade Al
20 I was careful enough to say "as far as I am concerned". Since the 1st World Series I saw was in 1979, I cannot speak to any played before then.
2006-10-24 15:00:07
70.   Simone
61 62 The main argument against steriod use is that it improves performance, isn't allegedly using pine tar and scuffing the ball doing the same thing? Once a player is caught, the umpires have to mete out the appropriate punishment. They cannot just wink their eye and look the other way.

60 I feel the exact same way. I would be devastated if I found out that Mo was cheating with pine tar or suntan lotion or some other substance. All the wonderful memories that I have of his outstanding performances over the years would be diminished.

2006-10-24 15:01:15
71.   Comrade Al
53 Say no more.
2006-10-24 15:02:36
72.   Comrade Al
43 But isn't George Brett the Pavlovian response when you hear "Pine Tar"?
2006-10-24 15:05:13
73.   standuptriple
I cheat my company out of MULTIPLE dollars every time I visit The Banter. I think that's good cheating.
2006-10-24 15:08:06
74.   Chyll Will
65 They never heard of, I guess.

I'm proseltyzing too much. And the last time I quoted stats, nobody noticed. So what is there left to do but make corny remarks?

2006-10-24 15:10:22
75.   Chyll Will
71 Nudge-nudge >;) >;)
2006-10-24 15:12:50
76.   Chyll Will
73 Not when it's on record....
2006-10-24 15:13:13
77.   Bama Yankee
68 "tub of goo behind the mound (other than D. Wells)"

Great line, wsporter.

2006-10-24 18:23:28
78.   Shaun P
61 et al - I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks this way!

68 MFD, your tub of goo line got me thinking - I wonder what a knuckle-spitter would do?

2006-10-25 09:54:12
79.   Comrade Al
77 "Fat tub of goo" is what David Letterman called Terry Foerster, a reliever for the White Sox, some time around 1983. Foerster, a good sport, then went on the show and had a few laughs with Dave about it. Good time was had by all.
2006-10-25 11:01:06
80.   Bama Yankee
79 I remember that, I think Forster was with the Braves at the time.

BTW, Forster's career batting average was .397 and his career ERA was 3.23. How many pitchers can you name that have a better BA (times 10 of course) than their ERA for a career? Babe Ruth was one at .342 BA and 2.28 ERA.

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