Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Stir it Up
2006-10-17 05:31
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

There was no game last night, but plenty of action in the St. Louis press.

The first Alex Rodriguez trade rumor has sprouted up, what with Sweet Lou taking over for Dusty Baker in Chicago. Rich Lederer asks some initial questions. Also, while you are there, check out Jeff Albert's examination of Derek Jeter's swing.

Comments (188)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-10-17 06:15:34
1.   rbj
What do the Cubs have to offer for A-Rod?
What can the Cubs spin off to another team to get enough for A-Rod?
I want an above average 3B plus an ace.
2006-10-17 06:28:54
2.   Simone
The Cubs would have to offer Carlos Zambrano and Aramis Ramirez for A-Rod. Of course, they would have to pay for both salaries. Ha. Obviously, Lou and the Cubs are delusional. Why on earth would A-Rod agree to be traded to the Cubs? With that no trade clause and the out after next season he can dictate where he goes. Why would he want to back to a loser club after doing everything that he could to get out of Texas? He doesn't have a magical cure for chronically injured pitchers. Maybe A-Rod considers the White Sox or another playoff club, but the Yankees aren't trading him so there ends the story.
2006-10-17 06:36:24
3.   Murray
Rodriguez must know he could post huge numbers playing in the easier league, in a hitters' ballpark like Wrigley.

I'm as annoyed with Steve Trachsel as the next New Yorker, but does the Mets' scorched earth policy toward using him again this year make any sense? If he is healthy, can they afford to pass over him out of spite? There is even a rumor that Hernandez would replace him on the Series roster if it comes to that. I find it hard to believe.

2006-10-17 06:47:00
4.   Yankee Fan In Boston
1 "I want an above average 3B plus an ace."

at least. a three for one shouldn't be out of the question.

3 the numbers rodriguez could put up at wrigley would be frightening.

2006-10-17 07:02:56
5.   Sliced Bread
Looks like the long, cold winter will go by quickly in Yankeeland.

Figure an A-Rod trade rumor will give us something to talk about for about three days.

Day 1: A-Rod is being traded to _____ for ____, ______, _______, & _______

Day 2: Why it makes sense for A-Rod to go to _______, why it's a good idea for the Yanks to trade their best player for _______, ______, ______ & ______ and how the trade will impact Jeter's lovelife.

Day 3: Yanks couldn't get enough in return for A-Rod. He stays. Discuss.

29 teams: 29 A-Rod trade rumors X 3 days per rumor = 87 days.

Next thing you know it's January 11th, NFL playoffs are in full swing, and we're about 5 weeks from pitchers & catchers.

Hoo-ray for A-Rod trade rumors. Not.

2006-10-17 07:20:05
6.   Cliff Corcoran
5 Amen.

Meanwhile, props to the Red Sox for signing John Farrell to be their new pitching coach. Farrell was the head of player development with the Indians and a former Indian hurler from the late '80s/early '90s. I spoke to him last year when I did the Indians chapter for Baseball Prospectus and was impressed by his generosity and warmth on the phone as well as how much he appears to get it when it comes to player and particularly pitcher management. With the Tribe, Farrell instituted strike-throwing incentives throughout the organization, rewarding pitchers for first pitch strikes, strikes in 1-1 counts, and overall improvement in K and BB rates. In 2005, at least, walk rates plummeted throughout the organization. Impressive stuff. Congrats to Farrell and props to the Red Sox for a smart hire.

2006-10-17 07:23:30
7.   Zavo
Suppose the Yanks don't trade Arod this offseason since I think that is probably the most likely course of action at this point.

After an offseason of rumors, he goes into next season and starts slowly. Many people are just waiting for him to not come through and boo when it happens (as I doubt the people who booed him last season will decide to stop next year). He has another solid season numbers wise, but the Yanks unfortunately don't win the World Series.

What will stop ARod from then opting out of his contract after 2007? I wouldn't blame him at that point, as there is no reason any player should take being booed at home for two years when he is an All-Star.

Does Cashman have to take this possible scenerio (one I don't think is too far fecthed) into account? It would be miserable to both lose Alex, and get nothing in return.

2006-10-17 07:38:06
8.   Sliced Bread
6 Never heard of strike-throwing incentives. Certainly worth a shot with young pitchers. I'd be interested to see how a K incentive might work with CM Wang. Was it Guidry or Posada who said Wang could whiff more hitters if he wanted to, but prefers the efficiency of inducing grounders.

A strike-1 incentive might be a good for Farnswacker. I think he's too careful sometimes when he should be trusting his upper 90's-101 mph heater.

2006-10-17 07:44:36
9.   rbj
7 25 million reasons A-Rod won't opt out. He's not going to get that kind of money anywhere else, no one in baseball is.

I predict Alex "bounces back" from this "awful" season.

2006-10-17 07:47:05
10.   Cliff Corcoran
8 Wang throws tons of strikes, but he throws to contact.
2006-10-17 07:48:34
11.   bp1
8 Not sure what sort of incentive you give a guy who's getting $7mil a year already. Incentives might work for minor leaguers who are eating at McD's, but for MLB players? Unless the whole contract is structured on incentives, I don't think it will mean that much. I think Farns wants to get guys out as much as Gator and Joe want him to.
2006-10-17 07:56:57
12.   Sliced Bread
10 But can Wang develop into more of a strike out pitcher, and would an incentive help - since he makes the minimum? He throws mid-90's. If he can work a slider or cutter into his arsenal couldn't he become a strike out pitcher?

11 I agree it's not a question of Farnswacker's desire. I think he tends to lose focus, and is sometimes too careful. A strike-1 incentive might make him more aggressive and go after batters, which is obviously better approach for him.
You're right though. How much incentive can you offer a guy who makes Farnswacker money?

2006-10-17 07:58:06
13.   Wait Til Next Year
Yanks need to seize the moment and trade A-Rod (or "AR" as my wife calls him!) to the Cubs and Lou before someone gives them some smelling salts and they snap out of it. Weak-hitting Tigers proved that Yanks have no starting pitching, other than Wang. Dump A-Rod and Pavano on the Cubs and get as many hard-throwing young studs as you can!
2006-10-17 07:58:55
14.   Knuckles
I think the Yanks should just rip up all their player contracts, announce that the 2007 payroll is $200M, and tell players that their salaries will be paid monthly, in proportion to their WARP3...
2006-10-17 07:59:29
15.   Simone
6 Pitching coaches are overrated, period. They are only as good as their pitchers.
2006-10-17 08:00:46
16.   choirboyzgirl
9- I don't think money is the driving force for Alex any more... he was willing to take a huge pay cut to go to Boston (but the Union wouldn't allow it). My guess is that pride (not being considered a failure in NYC) and ability to when a championship would be higher on Alex's list. If he doesn't want to go to another year of boos and a contending team makes him an offer I think he may say yes.

For him opting out though I think he can only do that if the Yankees don't give him an 8 million dollar raise (LMAO can Mr. Boras be my agent?) or $1 million more than the highest paid player....that would be Alex right? Not sure how that works out (if the Yankees would have to offer 1 or 8 million more).

2006-10-17 08:38:07
17.   RIYank
"...or $1 million more than the highest paid player....that would be Alex right?"


Yes, that means that A-Rod would have to be paid an infinite quantity of money. Could happen, but man wouldn't other fans around the league squeal about that one? Not the owners, though. They'd dig the luxury tax.

2006-10-17 08:40:06
18.   pistolpete
16 My only real caveat on A-Rod is that if he can mess with the chemistry in the Yankees locker room, what sort of havoc would he wreak on the payroll-challenged Cubs' clubhouse?

Unless he's only comfortable on a team that doesn't have the sort of all-star roster that NY has. Who knows, I don't pretend to know what's going on in his head.

2006-10-17 08:43:17
19.   Shaun P
Gee, Sweet Lou is already stiring the waters in Chi-town, what a surprise.

If I was Cashmoney, I'd start the asking price for A-Rod at D-Lee, Ramirez, Carlos Zambrano, Donald Veal, and Sean Gallagher - plus enough money to pay Lee, Ramirez, and big Z.

If Hendry asked me a second time after he stopped laughing, I'd ask for those five, the money, and Felix Pie too.

I think he'd stop calling me at this point. I would be very happy, as Yankee fans the world over wouldn't have to spend every day picking apart the latest A-Rod trade rumor. And I could focus on more important tasks, like pitching.

2006-10-17 08:55:49
20.   Simone
The trade A-Rod situation is being pushed by the media and the dopey section of Yankee fans. Look at Peter Abraham, I like his blog which is informative, but he too is pushing the trade A-Rod agenda. I don't doubt that there is tension in the Yankee clubhouse surrounding A-Rod, but so what? There is no requirement that everyone get along in baseball. The players just have to produce on the field and win.

This situation actually reminds me of the agenda that the same media has against T.O. These are athletes who the media have grudges against for one reason or the other so they pursue their agenda and exaggerate everything that happens with the athlete. T.O. didn't destroy the Eagles last season. Their quarterback got injured and couldn't play effectively. A-Rod wasn't the reason that the Yankees lost these past post-seasons, but they go on and on about the Yankees having to trade him because he is a distraction, yada, yada ... Cashman better tell these people where to get off and refuse to trade A-Rod.

2006-10-17 09:07:05
21.   alterity
20 Dopey fans like, say, 13?

13, how the heck do you figure the Cubs will take Pavano? That's beyond fantasy. If Cashman insisted in packaging Pavano with ARod, that would kill the deal all by itself.

And just what young pitching studs does Chicago have? Prior? Wood? Please. We already have Pavano, why would you want any more injury plagued pitchers who cost too much for what they give you? Zambrano? Well, I don't see the Cubs trading their one solid starter, and personally, I don't want him. He walks too many people and against AL lineups I just don't see him being an ace. Finally, as far as I know, the Cubs have no elite pitching prospects, but if they did, I doubt they would use them to get ARod, when their own pitching sucks. The Cards this year have proven you don't need much to win the Central, and If D Lee comes back next year and Ramierez is still there and does well, the Cubs should be in decent shape, given that no one else in the division is in a position to get a whole lot better. Actually, that last part is not true as the Cubs ahve become better by subtraction: Baker and Neifi are gone. In other words, an ARod deal to the Cubs ain't gonna happen. Nor should it.

2006-10-17 09:08:49
22.   Sliced Bread
19 In addition to the Cubs players and cash you mentioned, if I'm Cashman I'm thinking a certain brick and ivy wall would look nice around my backyard, and I'm demanding that the Cubs include the cost of shipping and masonry in any potential deal for A-Rod.
2006-10-17 09:20:59
23.   Bama Yankee
19 & 20 Great posts Shaun P and Simone.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, hopefully all these trade rumors will show that the Yanks can't possibly get a fair deal for A-Rod and the best move is to make no trade at all (as they say, sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make). Then the "Trade-Rod" crowd could stop booing, learn to like the guy and get used to having a HOFer at 3B. BTW, does the "Trade-Rod" crown realize that they agree with Steve Phillips on this (that would be enough for me to change my mind right there)?

2006-10-17 10:00:11
24.   Bama Yankee
So it seems that some people are suggesting that the Yankees should trade A-Rod because he hurts team "chemistry" and that the booing from the fans might cause him to opt out of his contract and leave the Yanks with nothing in return (unlikey as pointed out by rbj in 9).

As for the "chemistry" argument, didn't Randy Johnson and Jorge Posada have chemistry issues that got resolved? Haven't Gary Sheffield and Bobby Abreu both fit in (at least from the reports I've read) when others thought they wouldn't? IMO, it's time for Jeter & Mo to publicy voice their support for A-Rod similar to the way they voiced their support for Torre (I don't think this is too much to ask if it will make the team better).

As for the booing, the so-called fans could and should just stop doing it. What's the point? If you don't like A-Rod and the Yankees have explored every possible option to trade him, then just learn to like him or find another team. This question of "earning pinstripes" is silly. He was a Yankee the first day he put on the uniform. If fans can't accept that and feel the need to boo a current member of the team that I have loved through good and bad for 30 years then I say that maybe those fans haven't "earned" their pinstripes as fans yet.

2006-10-17 10:01:56
25.   vockins
I'm as likely to play third for the Cubs as ARod is next season. The headline might as well read, "Piniella Wants Cubs Bullpen to Participate in Next Lunar Landing."
2006-10-17 10:07:54
26.   pistolpete
24 Everything you said is fair, but why is out of the realm of being a 'good fan' to talk about trading a guy during the offseason?

Obviously, I'd rather keep Alex and have him produce, but you have to admit we may be dealing from a bit of a surplus here - and if someone's willing to deal us some decent young pitching in return for someone who perceivably can't handle the stress of playing for the Yankees, who am I to argue?

2006-10-17 10:17:42
27.   Wait Til Next Year
21 My apologies. I promise not to be so dopey. Didn't realize you had initimate knowledge of the Cubs' farm system. I just haven't had the time you've obviously had to scout the Cubs. You should be on TV!
2006-10-17 10:21:16
28.   rbj
Well put, Bama. At this point, I put the "A-Rod is a clubhouse cancer" down as purely media (& internet) driven. So he's not warm and fuzzy. Neither was Munson. I don't hear any stories about Alex acting like a jerk to teammates, demanding three lockers (a la Bonds). The Yankees are a highly paid group of professionals and should act like it.

I'll only entertain A-Rod trades because
1) It's 121 days to pitchers and catchers
2) Everyone is tradeable -- for the right price, except Mo and Jeter.

2006-10-17 10:22:35
29.   Yankee Fan In Boston
also, rodriguez is the team's best trade bait for getting a top tier pitching prospect.

no one will trade such a prospect unless they're getting someone of rodriguez's ability in return.

i think we can all agree that the yankees need some pitching. badly.

all avenues should be considered. that doesn't mean that the trigger should be pulled on any offer, but more options are better than none.

it doesn't hurt to see what could be had. at the same time, he will likely play out his contract in the bronx.

2006-10-17 10:34:33
30.   Agneselin
From (seriously, let's lay off ARod and try to enjoy the greatest player of his generation play in front of us every day for the next few years).

So, it seems like A-Rod's reputation as a postseason failure basically stems from 3 straight bad series. Here's his line from those series:

16 games, .183/.300/.333, 10 R, 2 HR, 5 RBI, 0.81 RC*/G

I decided to see who else from baseball history has had a similar or worse 3-series stretch. I found somebody from each position just for fun.

C Yogi Berra, 47WS-50WS ... 14 G, .140/.204/.260, 6 R, 2 HR, 5 RBI, 0.64 RC/G
1B Jeff Bagwell, 97NLDS-99NLDS ... 11 G, .128/.261/.128, 3 R, 0 HR, 4 RBI, 0.64 RC/G
2B Jackie Robinson, 47WS-52WS ... 19 G, .212/.342/.303, 9 R, 1 HR, 7 RBI, 0.79 RC/G
SS Derek Jeter**, 01ALDS-01WS ... 17 G, .226/.262/.290, 5 R, 1 HR, 4 RBI, 0.47 RC/G
3B Mike Schmidt, 77NLCS-80NLCS ... 13 G, .164/.233/.218, 4 R, 0 HR, 3 RBI, 0.54 RC/G
OF Babe Ruth, 18WS-22WS ... 14 G, .211/.333/.368, 4 R, 1 HR, 7 RBI, 0.71 RC/G
OF Mickey Mantle, 61WS-63WS ... 13 G, .130/.216/.217, 3 R, 1 HR, 1 RBI, 0.23 RC/G
OF Ted Williams*, 46WS ... 7 G, .200/.333/.200, 2 R, 0 HR, 1 RBI, 0.43 RC/G
DH David Ortiz, 02ALDS-03ALDS ... 14 G, .200/.231/.280, 0 R, 0 HR, 6 RBI, 0.43 RC/G

I think we can all agree that this team of chokers could never make it out of the first round.

* runs created (R+RBI-HR)
Jeter also had a pretty crappy 98ALDS-98WS ... 13 G, .235/.328/.294, 7 R, 0 HR, 3 RBI, 0.77 RC/G
* OK, Ted only had 1 postseason series, but I figured in the spirit of judging players off of small sample sizes, I'd include him

2006-10-17 10:35:31
31.   Knuckles
This is how I look at trading A-Rod:

You do whatever you can to make the team better, so each offseason you assess the trade value of pretty much everyone on the roster. You deal from strength and go after scarcity. There are 2 high profile hitters on the market (Sori and Lee) and both figure to top $15M/yr. A-Rod is a better hitter than either of them, and the Yanks are only paying him $16M/yr.

(Has it been confirmed one way or another that the Texas contribution is nullified should the Yanks trade him onwards?)

Offensively, the Yanks are stacked. The bats got shut down, to some degree in the postseason, but not having power arms hurt worse. 3B is a relatively abundant offensive position. Ergo, if you can trade A-Rod for some good young chuckers, and acquire a decent 3B either in that trade, or thru other means, you do it.

You can't do this with Giambi, b/c his age and salary vs his defensive position don't offer the same value. Matsui is a possibility, but he's kind of overpaid in terms of corner OF production, and then there's the whole unraveling of how much more he might be worth b/c of the Japanese exposure, esp if going after Matsusake.

There's really no one else you could think about trading (off the top of my head).

The Cubs are not a good fit, b/c they'd want to send Aramis back in the deal, which would eat up much of the value coming back in NY's direction, at the expense of pitching. That would be a trade simply to dump A-Rod, not get better. There'd need to be a 3rd team involved that has some pitching.

2006-10-17 10:50:23
32.   jonnystrongleg
How have the Red Sox done when they have shopped Manny Ramirez? Either via trade or waivers?

The market for guys of such extreme ability and salary is tough to make.

2006-10-17 11:11:04
33.   Shaun P
31 Ignoring the big leagues for a moment, here is BP's Kevin Goldstein's list of the top 10 best righty starters in the minors* and the top 10 best left starters in the minors*.

*as of mid-August

1. Philip Hughes, Yankees
Age: 20.2 H/9: 5.74 BB/9: 2.17 K/9: 10.40

2. Homer Bailey, Reds
Age: 20.3 H/9: 6.23 BB/9: 2.99 K/9: 10.13

3. Nick Adenhart, Angels
Age: 20.0 H/9: 7.67 BB/9: 2.39 K/9: 8.24

4. Luke Hochevar, Royals
Age: 23.0 H/9: 3.86 BB/9: 1.93 K/9: 9.64

5. Tim Lincecum, Giants
Age: 22.2 H/9: 4.39 BB/9: 3.04 K/9: 16.54

6. Yovani Gallardo, Brewers
Age: 20.5 H/9: 6.04 BB/9: 2.96 K/9: 10.95

7. Mike Pelfrey, Mets
Age: 22.6 H/9: 7.57 BB/9: 3.08 K/9: 10.18

8. Adam Miller, Indians
Age: 21.7 H/9: 7.62 BB/9: 2.66 K/9: 9.10

9. Eric Hurley, Rangers
Age: 21.0 H/9: 7.39 BB/9: 2.81 K/9: 8.96

10. Jeff Niemann, Devil Rays
Age: 23.5 H/9: 6.50 BB/9: 3.13 K/9: 9.75

1. Scott Elbert, Dodgers
Age: 21.0 H/9: 5.88 BB/9: 4.86 K/9: 11.03

2. Clayton Kershaw, Dodgers
Age: 18.4 H/9: 7.00 BB/9: 1.25 K/9: 13.00

3. Andrew Miller, Tigers
Age: 21.3 H/9: NA BB/9: NA K/9: NA

4. Donald Veal, Cubs
Age: 21.9 H/9: 5.47 BB/9: 4.78 K/9: 9.77

5. John Danks, Rangers
Age: 21.4 H/9: 9.10 BB/9: 3.03 K/9: 10.13

6. Franklin Morales, Rockies
Age: 21.3 H/9: 7.75 BB/9: 5.26 K/9: 9.97

7. Jacob McGee, Devil Rays
Age: 20.0 H/9: 7.14 BB/9: 4.36 K/9: 11.21

8. Troy Patton, Astros
Age: 21.0 H/9: 8.29 BB/9: 3.30 K/9: 8.88

9. Gio Gonzalez, Phillies
Age: 20.9 H/9: 7.77 BB/9: 4.57 K/9: 9.75

10. Chuck Lofgren, Indians
Age: 20.6 H/9: 7.10 BB/9: 3.45 K/9: 8.23

I don't see a single team above that would be willing to surrender one (or more) of these guys for A-Rod. They all need these guys to turn into effective big-league pitchers as desparately as the Yanks need Hughes to become an ace.

(OK, maybe the Tigers don't need Andrew Miller to become an ace, but you can bet they are drooling over the prospects of a Verlander-Miller-Bonderman big-three rotation. I would be, too.)

There is one team I can think of with an overabdunace of young power arms. Its also the one team in the majors that would never take on A-Rod's contract - the Marlins.

2006-10-17 11:12:00
34.   RIYank
Ben Kabak suggests

that Tony Pena could manage the Nats (they're interested), Joe Girardi could take his place as bench coach and heir apparent to Torre's job.

Intriguing, and a more digestible speculation than any A-Rod rumor.

2006-10-17 11:13:40
35.   Shaun P
33 BTW - presuming Adenhart can make it in the bigs, and I bet he will, I can see why the Angels would consider trading Ervin Santana.

After Lackey, Jered Weaver, and Adenhart, Santana is at best the 4th-best Angels' starter.

I'd hope we all agree that A-Rod is worth more than a team's fourth-best pitcher, even if an All-Star 3B was part of the deal too.

2006-10-17 11:17:45
36.   weeping for brunnhilde
Chemistry is what it is. Those who believe in it seem to overvalue it and those who don't seem to discount it altogether.

But why is it preposterous that one's comfort level could effect one's performance?

I don't know if Arod is a cancer or not, but I do think that, given what human beings are, the notion that an individual's presence could adversely effect the performance of his teammates on the field is perfectly legitimate.

Optimal performances come when players have struck a balance between being loose and being focused, which is to say, when they're in the zone.

Morale, comraderie, chemistry; whatever you want to call it, is real, isn't it?

I know people think it's created by winning and of course that's true. But it's also true that high morale (good chemistry) can facilitate winning by turning out players who are relaxed instead of tense.

Again, I have no idea what Rodriguez' psychological impact is on the club, but I think it's wrong to discount this as a factor.

And the reason I think Arod draws so much attention isn't because of his salary, but his potential.

It's hard for me to watch a guy with so much potential who seems so regularly to underachieve. Compare him to Jorgie, a guy who (in my view) constantly overperforms, managing to get the very most out of his limited natural abilities.

I think these sorts of nuances are lost when we focus too much on production, per se.

Part of being a fan is about forming attachments with players; too often it seems to me that people form emotional attachments with their stats instead. This is fine, and its their prerogative, but it's a little frustrating that for some reason statistical production is the trump card people play when trying to argue for or against roster moves.

I don't hate Rodriguez, but I don't much like him either; I don't like watching his at-bats and still fervently believe that his chief assets are his strength and his mechanics, which obviously get him very far.

But he still doesn't inspire confidence in me as a hitter, as someone who's in tune with the situation he's in and is ready to make adjustments. In a way, it seems to me like he slides by on pure talent and that's what I find frustrating.

Anyway, if he stays, fine, but if he can be moved in a good trade, great.

What's a good trade? Right, that's the question.

2006-10-17 11:25:17
37.   Chyll Will
34 Yeah, but: Tony Pena is the first base coach, whereas Lee Mazilli is the bench coach (or did I miss something after the playoff loss?) What to do with him, especially if he doesn't want to slide into first? (hmm, that's a first...)
2006-10-17 11:26:21
38.   Yankee Fan In Boston
31 exactly what i was attempting to post earlier, only more precise and well stated.

32 that does not mean that the notion of trading him should be completely abandoned. something might come about that could improve the team. (not likely, but possible.)

people have strong feelings on this issue. (or perhaps they're just the most vocal.) even resorting to name-calling...

33 the free agent options aren't looking too great, either. i tried to cut & paste a list of the available starters, but the formatting wouldn't hold.

here is a great list, searchable by team or position:

i really don't think that getting worked up about this is worth it.

either rodriguez will stay and hit .300 with 30+ HR and 120 RBI for the yankees, or ca$hman will find a way to swindle a team out out of a slew of can't-miss stars. (he won't make a move otherwise. long as george and the tampa group let him play his game.)

2006-10-17 11:28:40
39.   Simone
Given the debacle, it is clear the Joe Girardi is not ready to manage. I would prefer that he go to hone his skills with another team before managing the Yankees.
2006-10-17 11:34:17
40.   alterity
27 So you're saying you don't know about that of which you speak, but you're comfortable stating that the Yanks should trade ARod quickly for things you don't know exist? And they should also force the Cubs to take Pavano? Yeah, that makes sense.

And how do you know I'm not on TV?

2006-10-17 11:38:22
41.   Bama Yankee
26 I agree with you pistolpete. I don't have a problem with people talking about trading anyone and if we can get a trade that makes us better then I would be all for it. I just don't want to "dump" A-Rod (as some have suggested) for the best offer we can get.

The problem I have is with people booing a guy who makes mistakes while they are giving their best. Booing someone who is not giving 100% or someone who makes mistakes while showboating that's one thing, but booing someone like A-Rod just because he doesn't get a hit every time up just doesn't make sense. Especially in a sport where a 60% failure rate can get you in the HOF.

2006-10-17 11:38:59
42.   Yankee Fan In Boston
40 tim mccarver?
2006-10-17 11:41:04
43.   pistolpete
39 Michael Kay seems to think otherwise. ESPN radio's morning show quoted him as saying Girardi wants one of two jobs: Cubs or the Yankees. If he can't have either of those right now, the 'smart' move would be to sit on the Yankees bench and bide his time.

36 You may have hit on something there with the Posada comparison. IMO, in recent years, a lot of the great Yankees teams were built with guys who looked like they had to work at it - Bernie, Posada, O'Neill, Brosius, etc, etc. You could even make the case for Jeter being more of a 'worker' than someone who just coasts on his natural talent.

Then here comes A-Rod, with his 'look at my numbers' attitude and the fans aren't having it.

2006-10-17 11:43:28
44.   rbj
I can just imagine Pavano on the team with Pinella the manager:
Pavano: "I'm sorry Skip, I hurt my big toe and can't pitch"

Pinella: "What the &(^@^#(&! are you talking about? You're here to (&@#@O!@_ pitch! Now take the &@#(&@& ball and get out there and (@&#$@++!@# pitch, you (&#&@~@!+#@!~@#@!!!"

Pavano goes out and pitches a 2 hit shutout.

2006-10-17 11:43:43
45.   C2Coke
I've been away from the Banter for a few days and did not notice Cliff's return. 6 Cliff, the newly married man, welcome back!
2006-10-17 11:45:35
46.   C2Coke
44 I am surprised that Pavano is actually still in our conversation. At least, his term as a fake Yankee (I don't know who is a true Yankee or not, but as a fake Yankee, Pavano is up there)gave us a lot more to joke about.
2006-10-17 11:47:22
47.   weeping for brunnhilde
45 Yes, indeed, I meant to mention that myself: A hearty welcome back and a heartier mazal-tov, Cliff!
2006-10-17 11:48:28
48.   Yankee Fan In Boston
44 "Pavano goes out and pitches a 2 hit shutout."

i never thought i'd read a sentence like that again.

2006-10-17 11:51:17
49.   Simone
31 Your argument for trading Alex is similar to the argument that I made to support the Yankees trading Sheffield by the deadline a year or two ago. I pointed out quite rightly that the Yankees should trade Sheffield while he was still productive and they could get pitching for him because he was old and becoming injury prone and that as great as his bat was, the Yankees could find an inexpensive right fielder. Only for most of the people who post here and who I think have good baseball minds to go on and on about Sheffield being a real Yankee and that they liked his attitude. How did that turn out? Sheffield was injured for most of this season and the Yankees could have used the pitching that they would have gotten for him.

The flaw in your argument for trading Alex is that he is still young and productive. The Yankees need Alex's production on offensive just to get to the playoffs in the AL East. Also, the Yankees are not going get the young ace and reasonably priced young 3rd baseman that they need. They would be better off going into the free market signing Zito or Daisuke Matsuzaka and waiting for Hughes to mature into the ace that they need. Sometimes there are just no quick fixes to shoring up a starting rotation.

2006-10-17 11:54:48
50.   jonnystrongleg
38 Whether they abandon the notion or not, the Ramirez saga should be instructive to us as to how the ARod thing could work out. The situation has many differences, but some major important similarities that point to it being very difficult to get full value for a highly paid and highly talented player who is past his prime and perceived to be problematic in the clubhouse.

43 & 36 Love Posada, but he is a guy who stikes out 24% of the time to Arod's 20% and has a consistent track record of underperforming in the postseason. I was glad to him have such a great series this time around - but his career line in the postseason is .241/.358/.388. Perhaps what we perceive about their appearance is not always that indicative of what they actually do.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-10-17 11:59:10
51.   Bama Yankee
48 At least not until he pulls a Kenny Rogers against the Yankees in the postseason someday...

He's pulled everything else, why not pull a Kenny Rogers (without the cameraman abuse, chicken and country music)?

2006-10-17 12:00:34
52.   Simone
43 Michael Kay is known to be wrong. I have never understood this overwhelming certitude that people have Girardi would/will be a good manager. Maybe he will, but how does anyone really know? Girardi sat on the bench for one year, got a managing job which he proceeded to mess up and now people are talking about him managing the Yankees. On the other hand, Willie Randolph was a coach with the Yankees for years, barely got a nibble from other teams, and yet he remains employed while Girardi is not.
2006-10-17 12:02:52
53.   Yankee Fan In Boston
38 "...some major important similarities that point to it being very difficult to get full value for a highly paid and highly talented player who is past his prime and perceived to be problematic in the clubhouse."

i agree. however manny is often perceived as being more of a diva (demanding a trade whenever the moon is full, mysterious undetectable injuries causing him to sit out games...) rodriguez is younger, cheaper (thanks, texas!), and locked into an extra year of a contract i believe.

the angels are looking to make a splash. they want a big name and a big bat.

do the angels have enough? probably not... but could they turn a 3-way deal?

(that ought to get things going around here...)

2006-10-17 12:07:52
54.   Yankee Fan In Boston
51 if that ever happens, i'll end it all.
2006-10-17 12:10:49
55.   weeping for brunnhilde
50 I'm not saying that Jorgie is better than Rodriguez nor that he overperforms in the postseason.

What I'm saying is that he overperforms in his career.

I'm constantly amazed that his production is as consistent as it is year in and year out given how bad his bad at-bats are and how regularly he seems to have them.

What amazes me about him is that he can have an absolutely horrific at-bat in the one inning, striking out on three pitches, and yet have a good at-bat in another. Is it that he makes adjustments during the course of the game? Or that his focus wanes at times?

And how he can hit while so often taking off-balance swings is a mystery to me.

My point is, he's someone who seems to perform very well despite so many flaws in his game whereas Rodriguez seems to underperform despite having so few apparent flaws in his.

What I'm saying is that it seems like there's more room for improvement in Rodriguez' game than in Jorgie's because Jorgie seems to be making the best of his limited talents while Rodriguez seems not to be making the best of his prodigious ones.

This is why I expect more from Rodriguez than I do from Jorgie or pretty much anyone else and find it particularly frustrating when he falls short.

Does that make sense?

2006-10-17 12:16:43
56.   weeping for brunnhilde
And speaking of Manny, he's the perfect example. Manny being Manny means you'll settle for his lapses because his talent makes him a monster all the same.

But why should fans have to settle?

Rodriguez, to me, seems to be in this category, albeit obviously nowhere near to the degree that Manny is.

Also, I read somewhere once (Maybe in that Last Day of the Dynasty book?--can't remember where) that there was suspicion that Jeter resented Bernie for precisely this reason: that he didn't work as hard as he could and coasted on natural ability.

The idea was that with more work and focus Bernie could have gone from being a very good and even excellent player to a truly elite one.

Meaning that on paper, of course, production is what it is, but that doesn't tell the whole story as to what kind of player someone is. If an die-hard fan feels a certain player is not living up to his potential, I think that fan is well within his or her rights to resent (or at least feel apathetic towards) that player for it.

2006-10-17 12:21:06
57.   jonnystrongleg
55 Our perceptions create different expectations and tolerance levels for different players. We can run with that or try to see through our perceptions to something closer to the truth.

I had a hard time doing this when Arod was getting dominated by mid 80's fastballs all summer long. I found it easier in the postseason when he just couldn't get it going against some good pitchers.

2006-10-17 12:24:18
58.   jonnystrongleg
56 The problem there is who establishes what inherent talent level someone has? Again, we perceive and create standards that actually do not exist anywhere but in our own minds. To hold someone accountable for not living up to our own creation is, of course, our perogative.

It's just a pretty flawed way to go about it.

2006-10-17 12:26:24
59.   Yankee Fan In Boston
living in boston, i have had plenty of arguments regarding manny.

when i read an earlier post of yours saying that people may get frustrated with rodriguez because he is capable of more, i had to stop myself from posting about manny.

manny will be in the hall of fame.

he hits the crap out of the ball, and his time spent in the batting cage is said to be extensive.

that said, his fielding on the whole is shoddy, and he often won't run out a grounder.

i can't stand to watch him because of the seemingly half-hearted play he puts forth at times. i've seen him make a few great plays in left, too... but what could he do if he really tried on each play?

i see your point.

the biggest difference between manny and alex is that the fans in boston still scream until their lungs are raw to root manny on (even though he has repeatedly asked not to play for them), while alex is cursed with the same decibal barrage, but of the opposite nature.

(in the end, this difference reflects the fans more than the players. i think the opposite treatments of these two are more warranted.)

2006-10-17 12:28:45
60.   Yankee Fan In Boston
58 unfortunately, in sports many people use the size of somebody's contract to measure people's capabilities.

...and if they're "really good looking", they're really in trouble.

2006-10-17 12:28:49
61.   ChuckM
I'm still trying to figure out how Girardi "messed up" managing this season by nearly getting a team with a $15 million payroll to the playoffs.

And the Yanks can't trade A-Rod for Ramirez and whoever else until the 3B decides whether or not he will opt out of his contract...

2006-10-17 12:33:56
62.   jonnystrongleg
How about Justin Speier for the bullpen?
2006-10-17 12:36:19
63.   Simone
61 I'm so tired of the harping on payroll. The Marlins are made up of some of the top prospects in the game, plus Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis. On top of which, the Marlins play in a bad division.

This is how Girardi messed up: He didn't want to play the young players, alienated the FO, misused Josh Johnson who got injured, and then proceeded to have a public argument with his owner. If he can't manage Marlins without conflict how exactly does he manage in New York?

2006-10-17 12:41:30
64.   weeping for brunnhilde
58 I'm not sure I see your point.

As a teacher, it's fairly easy to see who succeeds through effort and who succeeds through talent and who's able to join the two and in what proportion.

Who decides? I guess I do, since I'm the one offering my evaluation. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I could also be right.

I'm speaking as a fan and to me that means forming emotional bonds with the players I watch based on the nuances I perceive or think I perceive in their day-by-day performances.

Watching Jorgie succeed on what appears to me to be a relatively low level of "natural ability" endears him to me.

Maybe I'm not being clear; I guess I'm just wondering how else a fan is expected to behave.

I like some players better than others and their numbers are for me not the first criterion, but rather the first criterion for me as a fan is the overall judgment I come to based on watching the people play.

Which, actually, raises a really fascinating question: is it possible that sabermetrics is creating a new kind of fan, one whose relationship to a player is grounded in a player's body of work, taken in the abstract, rather than being grounded in watching him play day in and day out?

I have no answer to this, but I do sense a wide gap between how I watch baseball and how lots of folks here seem to.

Not a value judgment, just an observation.

2006-10-17 12:45:43
65.   ChuckM
Because he put Josh Johnson back in after a rain delay? That's the definitive reason he got injured? Because he got in a public fight with an owner who views himself as a new Steinbrenner when said owner was arguing with an umpire over balls and strikes from his seat behind home plate? Name me one manager in the league who would be quiet over a stunt like that. The bottomline is 15 million is 15 million and top prospects or not, there's a BIG difference between playing a much shorter season in the minors than 162 in the bigs and in a playoff hunt-especially when the oldest guy on your team is 25 years old. What young players didn't he want to play? All he HAD was young players. Hell, he had SIX rookies in his opening day lineup. To sit there and say that Girardi should have been expected to do more with that team than he did this season, or that anyone else could've is borderline ludicrous. Did he make mistakes, sure-but that's to be expected from a first year manager. Hell, we still harp on TORRE's mistakes all the time here...
2006-10-17 12:49:15
66.   Sliced Bread
55 No, that does not make sense to me. How do you figure A-Rod underperforms to a greater degree than any player underperforms? Do you think A-Rod is not trying hard enough? That's what you seem to be suggesting, that A-Rod is coasting, getting by on his natural abilities. It's been widely observed that A-Rod works as hard, if not harder on his game than most players, and to his detriment he will tell you that.

56 Jeter got on Bernie for being late to a team meeting. Jeter never questioned Bernie's work ethic as far as I know. Jeter has, over the years, confirmed the perception that Bernie is "spacey" but that does not mean Williams was ever dogging it.
Bernie was an "elite player", not anything less than that, as you suggest (see 1998 batting title, All-Star appearances, Gold Gloves, most postseason HRs, and RBIs in MLB history, etc.)

2006-10-17 12:49:50
67.   weeping for brunnhilde
59 Time spent in the batting cage is great, but it's important to have a plan when you're there.

I have no idea what these guys do when they practice or what their approach is, but just because one spends time in the cage doesn't mean they're working.

They could be in there hitting fastballs over the fence because they find it gratifying rather than working on holes in their swing or training themselves to make contact on tough pitches or whatever.

I'm just making a theoretical point here.

Maybe I'd feel more comfortable if I knew what and how batters actually practiced when they take bp.

Are they isolating their vulnerabilities and working to improve them or are they just trying to stay sharp?

Do they embrace new approaches to hitting or do they basically try to just maintain what they already know how to do?

I don't know.

Any ideas, anyone?

2006-10-17 12:52:40
68.   choirboyzgirl
The two biggest differences between Alex and Manny to me are...

Effort: I have never seen anyone (even those that don't like him) say that Alex has never given 100% if not more. It has been said over and over again that he is usually the first one in and the last one out working on things. Its almost impossible to be at your very best all the time...even Michael Jordan had days/weeks where he was off...this was Alex's off year. I do think he'll come back stronger this year with any team he's on.

Relaxing: Manny doesn't seem to care what anyone thinks about anything he does, he's able to let go of past mistakes and just relax when he gets up to the plate (thus he hits so well). Where as it seems Alex thinks way too much about EVERYTHING..

If either of these players find a balance between the two, they will be forces to be reckoned with.

2006-10-17 12:55:24
69.   weeping for brunnhilde
66 As to Bernie and Jeter, what I read was that it was a sort of open secret that Jeter bore some resentment towards Bernie because he never developed himself as a player to his limits and that he could have been much better than he was. That was the charge. I have no idea if it's true or not, but they attributed this very pointed criticism of Bernie to Jeter.

Regardless of whether it's true, the point holds; I was just trying to illustrate what I'm talking about.

And as to the other point, I think you're overstating what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying that he's not trying hard enough.

What I am saying is that there seems to me to be a gap between his talent and his performance.

Am I actually not making sense, or are you just disagreeing with me?

2006-10-17 12:56:36
70.   Orly Yarly NoWai
On First and 10, Woody Paige just advocated trading Rodruigez and Farnsworth for Prior and Wood.
2006-10-17 12:57:45
71.   weeping for brunnhilde
66 And btw, I love Bernie, my point wasn't to malign him or suggest he dogs it.

Didn't mean to offend.

2006-10-17 12:59:31
72.   weeping for brunnhilde
68 Right, I'm not suggesting Alex is lazy, just that perhaps his efforts, prodigious as they might be, are misdirected.

I don't know if they are or aren't.

I'm really trying to have a conversation about this more than I'm trying to dig my heels into any particular position.

2006-10-17 13:12:54
73.   rbj
70 Did Woody forget to take his medication again?
2006-10-17 13:14:03
74.   jonnystrongleg
Shouldn't the Arod analysis be directed at the 3 month perion this summer when he could not hit a batting practice pitch out of Yankee Stadium let alone an 85 MPH fastball?

I would hate to make judgments on the eventual Home Run king based on some undisclosed injury or vision problem that's easily correctable. That stretch scared me, and led to many of even the biggest Arod fans to wonder what the f was going on.

2006-10-17 13:18:27
75.   Simone
70 I expect some Yankee fans to line up in support of that crazy trade.
2006-10-17 13:22:30
76.   az0610
I was talking with some colleagues at work this week about ARod. The question I asked them was, "If you were grading ARod on his 2006 season, compared to his previous seasons, what would you give him?"

The average was a "C."

He was the best offensive 3B in the AL. Not bad for a "C" season.

To me, it seems simple. ARod needs to disappear for the winter. He, Boras and any other handlers the guy has just need to stay quiet. With hard work and less deflecting blame (or placing blame on outside factors), ARod can restore whatever goodwill he's lost in the clubhouse, with members of the local media, and with the fans.

The guy has talent. He's won a MVP in New York. He handled things just fine in 2005. An extended slump and an article in SI don't change that. If he works hard and doesn't spout off to the media, he'll be fine.

2006-10-17 13:25:00
77.   OldYanksFan
Sometimes I am simply amazed at the quality of somae analysis on the Net. Wow. Check this out and get Mattingly on the phone.
2006-10-17 13:26:27
78.   Shaun P
Waaaaaaaaaay off topic.

Anyone notice the breakdown of the Mets' postseason roster, in terms of how the Mets got their guys? Me neither. But BP's Kevin Goldstein lays it out for us:

Free Agent Signs: 14
Trade: 8
Drafted: 2
International: 1
Waiver Claim: 0
Rule 5 Draft: 0

Another way of breaking it down:

Homegrown: 3 (Wright, Reyes, Heilman)
Bought: 22 (everyone else)

Compare to the Yanks' playoff roster:

Free Agent Signs: 9
Trade: 7
Drafted: 3
International: 6*
Waiver Claim: 0
Rule 5 Draft: 0


Homegrown: 9*
Bought: 16

*Godzilla really isn't homegrown, but he was an International Free Agent, and I counted all the others IFAs as homegrown, so . . .

2006-10-17 13:45:53
79.   vockins
77 I think Alex linked to that about three months ago, but it's still cool to read.
2006-10-17 13:46:37
80.   weeping for brunnhilde
77 Yeah, they posted that here awhile back. Personally, I'm much more inspired by analysis that's focused on what a player does mechanically than on analysis that looks at stats, nothing against stats, per se, it's just not my cup of tea.

And I know the two aren't mutually exclusive, it's just I'm more into what can be observed with the naked eye as one watches a game than I am with abstract, statistical representations of performance.

Anyway, to all the devotees of sabermetrics, I apologize for my ignorance in that area and mean no disrespect when I express my suspicions.

2006-10-17 13:48:19
81.   jayd
by way of a question:

I keep hearing how the yanks will decline sheff's option and he will go elsewhere.

Couldn't they sign him and then trade him? It seems he's affordable for a lot of teams and could command some good prospects. that way he doesn't go the sawks. However all I ever read about is the "decline the option" and he's gone.

2006-10-17 13:49:35
82.   Shaun P
Also way off topic:

JR House, former Pirates catching prospect, might be available (he played in the Astros farm system last year). He's not a great defensive catcher, but he hits very well and will be 27 next year. If the Yanks could get him, and Tony Pena stays on staff, I bet House could be a very servicable backup to Posada. He might even help bridge the post-Posada catching-gap we all worry about. Thoughts?

2006-10-17 13:53:36
83.   Yankee Fan In Boston
speaking of off topic:
TBS will have exclusive broadcast rights to an LCS for the next 7 years. alternating leagues each year.

and i'll save you the effort, no... they do NOT stream TBS on TVU.

2006-10-17 13:53:59
84.   Simone
69 To suggest that there is a gap between Bernie's talent and performance and to compare him to Manny's fielding and dogging it is so off base that I struggle to know where to begin.

I never read anything close to what you are claiming re: Jeter and Bernie. Sliced Bread is correct. Based on the limited media reports, Jeter's issues with Bernie come from his lack of baseball intelligence. Bernie has in fact worked very hard to be the best baseball player that he could be, especially as the game doesn't come to him as instinctively. Joe Torre comments on this all the time. Bernie isn't the hitter that Manny is, but he is a good hitter. Bernie's fielding ability has eroded as he aged, but he always hustled in his prime.

What Bernie lacks is the ability to read a play as it is unfolding, for example even after playing the game all these years, Bernie doesn't instinctly know to throw 3rd and not 2nd in specific situations which is fustrating for Jeter, but that doesn't mean that he or anyone thinks that Bernie didn't work hard and has somehow squandered his talent.

Bernie is the one offensive player in the championship years who actually performed above his regular season averages in the playoffs. He carried the Yankees for stretches. There is no way that anyone can ever say that Bernie didn't work hard and wasted his talent. If anything he performed above everyone's expectations from when he was a prospect in the Yankees farm system.

2006-10-17 13:54:09
85.   weeping for brunnhilde
82 Nothing to add other than that yes, it's time to find an eventual replacement, preferably someone who can be developed, as Jorgie was, than to rely on finding an established starting catcher.
2006-10-17 13:54:14
86.   Chyll Will
56 I beg to differ. Manny has numbers over A-Rod in some rather non-significant categories, but overall they are the same:

Alex Rodriguez From To Yrs 1994-2006
Total yrs - 13 G - 1746 AB - 6767 R - 1358 H - 2067 2B - 364 3B - 26 HR - 464 RBI - 1347 BB - 820 SO - 1404 BA - .305 OBP - .386 SLG - .573 SB -241 CS - 60 OPS+ - 145

Manny Ramirez From To Yrs 1993-2006
Total Yrs - 14 G - 1817 AB - 6575 R - 1258 H - 2066 2B - 438 3B - 16 HR - 470 RBI - 1516 BB - 1054 SO - 1451 BA - .314 OBP - .411 SLG - .600 SB - 34 CS - 31 OPS+ - 157

What does that mean? With almost a half-season more in total games, Manny has achieved very much the same production as A-Rod, however A-Rod being four years younger has surpassed Manny in comparison with the numbers they produced by a certain age; A-Rod at 30 having produced more than Manny at 30. Couple that with A-Rod's superior defense and running, and it's not nearly as close.

Both are HOF, with numbers running congruently with Name-brand HOFs, but barring injury, A-Rod's got years left that Manny doesn't. Perhaps it just looks like he's not trying as hard as he can, but then there's Manny, so that really can't be it. I suspect we (in general) expect A-Rod to have 600 homers, a .350 BA and 3500 RBI right now, but give it a rest; he's a lot better than almost anybody, period.

2006-10-17 13:54:16
87.   randym77
81 Peter Abraham argues in his blog today that the Yanks should sign Sheff, then trade him.

"Pick up the option and trade him for pitching. This would keep him away from Boston and gets the most out of him. It would enrage Sheffield, but he signed the deal."

Speaking of Peter Abraham...he's really the only reason I think A-Rod will be traded. The way he talks about A-Rod's "baggage"...the only other player I can remember him being so blunt about is Carl Pavano. That tells me Pete isn't worrying about dealing with A-Rod next season, nor with any of his friends or supporters.

2006-10-17 13:57:29
88.   weeping for brunnhilde
84 Simone, I think we're having two different conversations.

I wasn't assenting to that view of Bernie, but using it as an example to illustrate the point I was trying to make. I do know that I read that criticism of Bernie attributed to Jeter and it was disturbing to me to read, which is why I remember it.

There's no need to defend Bernie to me, I love the guy.

2006-10-17 13:58:08
89.   Simone
81 Only incompetent Jim Bowden of the Nationals would do that crazy deal and even he might have more sense.
2006-10-17 14:02:22
90.   randym77
82 We definitely need a young catcher. Fasano elected for free agency, so there's a roster spot open.

If not House, maybe we can work a deal with his former club. The Pirates have more catching talent than they know what to do with.

2006-10-17 14:04:20
91.   Aviezer
What do you people think of Toronto's Justin Spier for the pen. That would give us 5 very good relivers for the 7th 8th and 9th. Spier/Proctor alternating days in the 8th and Bruney/Farnsworth for the 7th. Myers would be the LOOGY and Karstens/Rasner the long man. This arrangement would limit the amount of work to Proctor b/c Torre would have another arm he could trust. And a rested Proctor could potentially be the best set up man in the MLB. Check out his stats when he has had at least a day of rest. Proctor himself has said he would prefer to pitch every other day. One of those four could be dealt at the trade deadline when it is time for Cox to come up.
2006-10-17 14:09:28
92.   Chyll Will
91 Another arm for Torre to burn out at his pleasure, once he gets around to trusting it.
2006-10-17 14:13:59
93.   Knuckles
92 Amen. Torre's bullpen circle of trust is about the size of a hula hoop, and everyone not named Rivera may as well be the size of Konishiki; one guy pushes his way in, means another guy just got pushed out. Until someone sits Joe down and explains that Cashman works to provide him with a multitude of options, he could conceivably wreck one quality arm per month.
2006-10-17 14:14:49
94.   Aviezer
As for the rotation we must resign Mussina for about 8M year. We can sign Matsuzaka for 10M a year and still be paying less than we did to Mussina last year. Our rotation would look like this. Wang
this would leave space for Clippard to come up at the break and pitch in the fifth slot with Rasner, who I believe will win the fifth spot, sliding intto the Unit's spot when he gets injured. Hughes should come up in late July and pitch out of the pen for the duration makiong a spot start if neccesary. If he dominates out of the pen they shouold give him 2 or 3 starts before the playoffs and the make him the 4th starter in the playoffs with Clippard/Rasner depending on who pitches better the 5th starter. Wang, Matz, Moose, T Clip /Rasner, Hughes is good enaugh pitching to go all the way.
2006-10-17 14:15:43
95.   Aviezer
Addendum this is all contingent on T Clip/Hughes dominating AAA.
2006-10-17 14:22:25
96.   Chyll Will
95 See to it that they do.
2006-10-17 14:23:09
97.   Aviezer
92 93 Torre already trusts Proctor, Rivera, and Bruney. He seems to trust Farns although that may not be a smart thing to do. Even if he only uses Spier when the Yanksees are winning or losing badly it would take a load off the other 3. Especially Proctor; when rested Proctor is one of the most dangerous relievers in the sport. I saw the splits once , don't remember where ,but it was an ERA under 1.50 and a whip under 1.00. It is only in save situatins thet Proctor loses his head in tight situations in the eighth he is dominant when rested.
2006-10-17 14:28:39
98.   Aviezer
As for injury reinforcements we have Henn, Kennard, Pope, Veras, Cox and Beam all availible in the minors. Beam should be the first one up and is really talented and could turn unto a Quantrill type reliever. He dominated the minord last year if not the majors but this is in part the responsibility of the huge talent gap between AA and the majors. When he comes up he will be good.
2006-10-17 14:31:47
99.   Simone
It the Yankees could get a starting rotation where 3 out of 5 pitchers could go 6 to 7 innings consistently, Joe's use of the bullpen would be less of an issue.
2006-10-17 14:33:51
100.   Chyll Will
97 Not like he had a heck of a lot of choice. Those were the only guys with any arm left by September, and who's gonna sit down a guy throwing 100 on a regular basis? Point is, even if we had Zumaya, he's likely to go the way of Mendoza, Sturtze, Quantrill, Villone, etc... unless someone with some sense can get through to Torre when the pitcher's arm is crying Uncle.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-10-17 14:39:27
101.   jonnystrongleg
94 So the Yanks decline their $17 million option on Moose and he kindly agrees to resign at $8 million per year for x number of years?

I guess that could happen, but I think that would be more up to Moose than the Yanks.

2006-10-17 14:41:01
102.   Aviezer
If you look at the rotation I have proposed. Wang, Matz, Moose, and Rasner can go six consistantly with the first 2 bieng very economical pitchers who could go 7 or even 8 consistantly. When the good Unit shows up he can go 6 or 7 but the bad Unit start where he is cinsistantly pulled in the 4t or 5th negate all that. Rasner is a wildcard but I liked what I saw out of him last year and I think he can be a 4.10 pitcher who consistantly goes 6. And you are right to say that bullpen problems go down if we see this rotation. It is imperative that we get rid of Jaret Wright as soon as we can. He throws hard but cannot go more than 6 innings even when on his game. If pavano ever gets back ( and count me among those that don't think he ever will ) he could also be a 6 inning pitcher although I am at aloss to see where he would fit in.
2006-10-17 14:43:37
103.   Aviezer
101 Moose ha said that he wants to resign with NY and would get 9M max on the open market as well no team is going to tke him for more than 3 years. So yes I think he would sign that deal.
2006-10-17 14:45:55
104.   Aviezer
ha=has my bad.
2006-10-17 14:46:44
105.   Aviezer
tke= take again MB
2006-10-17 15:26:38
106.   Aviezer
Another place we must upgrade is the bench. Bring back Aaron Guiel and let Andy Cannizaro be the utility infielder. After all in his short time at the end of the season he hit more homers than Cairo did all year. He walks and doesn't strike out and would perform as well as cairo did. Kevin Thompsohn should be up as well to pinch run and hit. We nee to find a backup catcher as we have no one in the system to replace Fasano. I would like chris woodward as a backup if we can get him.
2006-10-17 15:36:27
107.   Jeb
I never get tired of reading Don Mattingly's love letters to his high school girlfriend (See link below). It's the best medicine for another year of failure.

2006-10-17 15:40:55
108.   OldYanksFan
Kerry, Wood, Liriano and many other pitchers make up a long list of pitchers who would be CY candidates any year they are healthy... but how many have remained healthy... especially without 'Roids? Over the last 10 years, how many 'pitching Gods' have had 3 great, injury-free seasons in a row?

Clemens, RJ (in his day) and a few select others are on a short list of great pitchers who maintained a high level for many years. I just don't believe any pitcher is a sure thing for the long run. You get what you can, but you don't bet the farm on any pitchers career.

However, if ARod retires as a Yankee, considering his health and injury (free) history, here's what you can bank on from this 3rd baseman.

1) 6 years of 800+ OPS, 4 of them 900+ OPS. Possibly a year of 2 of 1.000 OPS,
2) Average, but probably above average defense for his career.
3) His 500th HR (hopefully in Yankee Stadium)
4) His 600th HR (hopefully in Yankee Stadium)
5) Probably his 700th HR (hopefully in Yankee Stadium)
6) Maybe his 756th HR (hopefully in Yankee Stadium)
7) The Greatest 3rd baseman in Yankee history
8) 1st ballet HOF induction in a Yankee uniform
9) Another MVP or 2.
10) Another HR title or 2.
11) Plaque or Monument in Monument Park
12) #13 Retired to the rafters.
13) Stats wise, one of the top 10 players in baseball history.
14) A WS MVP or 2.
15) various other lifetime records.

But yes, this gentle man is a cancer, so lets trade him for a 'great pitcher', who will probably be Pavanoed before ARod hits #600, and we can watch baseball history made by AROd over and over again, in someone else's uniform.

Yes... we can't trade Babe Ruth... so we'll trade ARod instead.

I'm SURE no one here will look back on his trade, and wonder WHAT THE FUCK WERE WE THINKING!

2006-10-17 15:53:59
109.   Aviezer
I agree with all that except the WS MVP's. He may perform well but others (Jete Wang) will be getting the MVP's.
2006-10-17 16:16:33
110.   weeping for brunnhilde
108 I agree that Arod is great. And that he's capable of all the things you say.

But to me, that's not relevant to the issue, which is, does Alex Rodriguez at third base make the Yankees the best possible team it can be?

I think that's a very legitimate question.

You can argue that all those numbers do indeed translate into the Yankees being the most competetive team, of course.

But I'm not convinced that's the only argument to be made. The question is, is this man at this time the best possible fit for this ballclub?

Is it conceivable that other players can be obtained the sum and diversity of whose value makes the Yanks a better or more consistent team?

I'm not qualified to answer that question, but I do think it is a legitimate one.

2006-10-17 16:22:01
111.   RIYank
110 I don't get it. Please explain.

Are you thinking that other players get worse when Alex Rodriguez is on the team? I guess that sort of thing is possible, but I'm very skeptical and I'd like to see evidence.

If it's not that, then I don't see how a great player could make his team better than a less-great player (at the same position) would.

2006-10-17 16:34:01
112.   weeping for brunnhilde
This Arod thing brings up really interesting questions about the nature of fandom.

How much is fandom about the team winning?

How much about sentimental attachment to players?

For instance, Mattingly to me was what Mays and DiMaggio were to previous generations.

I was young and he occupied that unique mythical status that's possible to only a young fan.

Yet the Yanks kept losing in the eighties.

Now, suppose we could have traded Mattingly in his prime for three Cy Young winners and, I don't know, Jack Clark or someone to replace him at first.

That probably would have allowed the Yankees to dominate in the eighties, but if you'd asked me then, I would have refused because of my love of Mattingly.

Better to lose with him than win without him because there comes a point when winning won't be as sweet.

Sine I'm not really that emotionally attached to Arod, I'd entertain any trade that seemed to me in the best interests of the team.

Others seem disturbed by the mere suggestion that we might try to move him, although in fairness most of those people believe that there is no such conceivable trade in which we'd get (hypothetically speaking) three Cy Young winners or whatever.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but there it is.

The general question, I guess, is whether we're more attached to the team per se or to its constituent parts, the players.

Or something.

Sorry if I've rambled.

2006-10-17 16:40:12
113.   weeping for brunnhilde
111 Maybe a great player could make the other players worse, because of chemistry, but admittedly, that's hard to prove empirically.

I'm more thinking of this: one great player is still just one great player.

The Yankees have other players who provide more than enough offense to win, provided we have good pitching.

So if we could trade Arod, a great player, for, say, three very good (but not great) pitchers and a good (but not great) third baseman to replace him, might that not make the team stronger?

2006-10-17 16:42:59
114.   OldYanksFan
69 Bernie has always had a poor arm. Did he ever work with a 'specialist' on his throwing mechanics to improve his performance. Did he work really hard on this? Did he improve as he got 'older and wiser'? I don't think so.

Bernie has always been a poor baserunner. Bad reads on the pitcher and bad instincts on the bases. Did he work on this extensively? Did he improve as he got 'older and wiser'? I don't think so.

While Bernie outran a lot of balls in the outfield, no has never taken the best path to the ball or gotten a great jump. Did he work really hard on this? Did he improve as he got 'older and wiser'? I don't think so.

I love Bernie. He was a great player and a great Yankee. But his game has lots of holes, which are all too apparent now.

I do think Bernie could have been a better and more complete ballplayer had he really worked on it.... but maybe not as good a guitarist.

2006-10-17 16:56:12
115.   weeping for brunnhilde
114 I mentioned this in another thread awhile back, but I'll put it out there again.

I was too young when Pete Rose played to be able to judge, but the story I always heard about him was that he made himself into a great ballplayer by sheer force of will. That he was someone who wasn't overly talented, but had an ungodly drive to compete and improve.

I presume they're the same demons that drove him to (inadvertently, presumably) end the career of poor Ray Fosse.

That's really all I'm trying to point out: some players succeed on talent, some on hard work, most on a combination of the two.

My only point is that it seems to me that Rodriguez relies far more on talent than on hard work. Not to say that he doesn't work hard, but only to say that, for instance, he often seems to have no plan when he's at the plate (swinging at pitches he should take, taking pitches he should swing at, trying to pull pitches he should take the other way, etc.) and that disturbs me.

I just feel like if he could focus on this aspect of his game he would easily hit .340 every year because his swing is just so goddamned good.

That would be the next level for him and it doesn't appear to me that he's trying to reach it.

2006-10-17 17:16:59
116.   RIYank
113 Oh, okay, I understand that.

Of course it is in principle possible to trade a great player and get enough very very good players in return to make it worth while. But most of us are pretty well convinced that in practice it's not possible. Nobody is going to give up three very good pitchers, for instance.

And, this is not really germane but it's becoming a pet peeve of mine: there is no such thing as having "more than enough offense to win provided we get good pitching". For one thing, even with great pitching you only win 60% of your games, or in spectacular years with tons of luck maybe a bit more. Second, the more offense you have, the more chance you have of winning, and the more games you will win in the long run, so there's no 'more than enough'. More is always better. And third, lowering your offensive production by, say, thirty runs per year, is going to cost you nearly the same number of games whether your pitching is weak, pretty good, good, very good, or great. (Not quite exactly the same, because of the pythagorean ratio, but near enough.)

2006-10-17 17:19:32
117.   OldYanksFan
File Under: Why trade him.. George Carlin wants public beheadings at halftime.
The Underperformance of A-Rod.
ARod has posted the following averages:

HR: 43 OPS: .959 - over 12 seasons
HR: 40 OPS: .935 - 3 seasons as a Yankee.

HRs as a Yankee: 7.5% under LT averages
OPS as a Yankee: 2.5% under LT averages

Now, consider park factors and playing in NY, and just HOW BADLY has ARod underperformed? A little bit. 2 of 3 years, by some, overperformed in 1 year.

I say: "Off with his head".

2006-10-17 17:19:48
118.   alterity
110 The problem I see with your argument here and in other threads is that you have no definition of team with which to make a case. People can point to the numbers, and you seem to say taht whlie the numbers are nice they don't tell the whole story. I will buy that in terms of scouting, where numbers might not tell me if a player sets his feet well when making a throw or if he has too many problems with his swing to make it out of rookie ball. However, when you start saying taht ARod is not a "team" player, I have no idea what you're talking about. I would say, as have many others, that Jeter does not look like much of "team" player for not backing up ARod. Frankly, I don't care. I would still rather have Jeter than not. In basketball, I can see how being a team player can help, and it can be quantified by lookinhg at assist ratios and how often a given player shoots the ball in relation to his teammates. But in baseball, stats show that average with RISP tends to be close to career average, which is about the only place where being a teammate really matters in terms of actual on field interaction, and even that's a stretch (I guess you cuold say defense too). I mean,do you thik ARod does not drive people in becuase he doesn't like them, in the manner of a basketball player who refuses to pass the ball to someone he does not like? Of course not, I hope. So, what is it about ARod that makes him such a bad teammate? Is it hies perceieved presence in the clubhouse? Let's face it, we don't know anything about hta but what the media tells us, and I don't completely trust what they're telling me. Is it the fact that some players don't like him? So what? Again, we don't know very much about that and even if we did no one is getting paid to like anyone. If they like each other, fine. I have hated many people I have worked with over the last decade, but, aside form some awkwardness, that has not affected how I've done my job and, as far as I can tell, it has not affected how my coworkers have done theirs.

And, just for a moment, suppose the Yanks do trade ARod for better teammates. How do you know they'll be better? What measuring device do you use? Do you say, we don't want the good player, we want the scrub who's really funny and a good teammate. We already have Cairo. So what do you go on the market looking for? Specific parts? Spare parts? Any parts at all? You seem to be asking for something you can't define, and I'd rather stick with the HOF status quo than take a risk on a woman with a great persona. . . errr, a great "teammate."

So until you can offer a better definition of what being a team is, and can offer some argument about how getting rid of Arod would produce thedesired effect (which would include defining how to get good teammates), then your srgument does not appearto be a very solid one.

2006-10-17 17:36:25
119.   weeping for brunnhilde
116 118 Thanks for your responses. You both make great points and I'll try to come back to them, but for now, I'm watching the Mets!
2006-10-17 17:36:58
120.   OldYanksFan
2006 Offense compared to 2007-2008.
Premises of: No more Shef, declining due to age and injury of Posada, Damon (is he still walking) and Giambi.

Damon - slight decline
Jeter - decline (as 2006 was a career year)
Shef - gone
Giambi - slight, slow decline
Matsui - same, maybe a little better
Cano - can he have a better year then last? Lets see
Melkdud - He HAS to get better
ARod - you wanna trade him?
Abreu - same
Posada - slight decline

Take ARod out of the equation, and we still have an excellent, but aging offense. I do not think its that good that we don't need ARod, and that his loss won't be considerably felt.

Pujols has a carreer avg of 43 HRs and 1.050 OPS. If he hits 33 HRs and has a .900 OPS in 2007, do you trade him the next offseason?

2006-10-17 17:44:11
121.   Simone
114 You "love" Bernie? I wouldn't like see it if you despised him.

115 Your criticism of Alex Rodriguez has just entered the realm of pure rubbish. Name a baseball player in the last 20 years who hit .340 every year of their career? Great players with the most talent work the hardest to become great. It doesn't happen by accident. Tiger Woods hits tons of balls to perfect his swing and win majors. Michael Jordan practiced his shot for hours in the gym to hit those amazing shots in the actual game. Alex Rodriguez and other great baseball players practice for hours to have excellent production on the field. The idea that great players don't work hard enough is beyond ridiculous. Sometimes these athletes just have flaws in their game. Shaquille O'Neil is a terrible free thow shooter during the game, but hits them in the gym all the time.

In Alex Rodriguez, you are watching one of the greatest players to EVER play the game of baseball. Yet, all you can do write diatribes that pick him apart and focus on the flaws in his game. You are like the people who rip Tiger Woods for not winning majors by 10 strokes or berate his competition instead of appreciating the history that you are watching. Yes, Alex could strike out less. Yes, he could press a bit less. Yes, he seems to get anxious and occasionally throws the ball away. Yet in a down year, Alex hit 35 home runs, .290 BA, 191 RBIs and stole 15 bases and you are going on and on about how he could be better. Gawd.

2006-10-17 17:57:48
122.   Dimelo
121 ARod's "191 RBIs" had to be the quietest RBI production ever. I didn't even know he had tied Hack Wilson's record. I'd still trade him.
2006-10-17 18:02:34
123.   Aviezer
107 I read the Mattingly letters. A laugh although obviously fake.
2006-10-17 18:04:19
124.   Aviezer
Come on people enaugh about A rod. What should we do over the offseason.
2006-10-17 18:14:10
125.   weeping for brunnhilde
121 Simone, once and for all, I wasn't ripping Bernie at all.

It's precisely because I love Bernie that I was so stung by that assessment of him and remember it today. It caught me off guard because of my affection for him and because it disturbed me that Jeter, another player I have affection for, would level it.

As to Arod, sure, I'm probably overstating my case, but I believe I'm doing so in response to the predominant feeling here that he's such a great player.

I agree, he is a great player, but nevertheless, I see things in his game I wish he'd improve on and caught me by surprise because he came with such great expectations.

I'm sorry I offend you, that is not my intention. I'm sharing my perspective, which I think has some validity. The problem is, in defending my perspective I necessarily have to exaggerate it for the sake of clarity because people tend to jump on me for even suggesting the things I do.

I don't mean to offer diatribes. I'll try to come up with a way to express myself that isn't a diatribe, because that's really not my intention.

118 116 I'm still thinking.

2006-10-17 18:18:26
126.   randym77
124 Trade for Jeff Weaver?

Okay, I was away for a bit. Why did they have to get a new base?

2006-10-17 18:20:17
127.   Yankee Fan In Boston
alright. maybe we should just hold onto rodriguez.

FOX broadcasters are now proponents of the idea.

i am now convinced.

2006-10-17 18:24:30
128.   Stormer Sports

You da' man.

2006-10-17 18:25:30
129.   Dimelo
Wright is having a ARod'esque type of post-season.
2006-10-17 18:25:46
130.   RIYank
124 Hey, I thought Simone was the one who's supposed to tell us to stop being obsessed with A-Rod.
2006-10-17 18:36:50
131.   OldYanksFan
125 Thanks for the defense.
121 Yes I love Bernie. I have followed him from the day he can up. It is OK to love something or someone, but be able to offer an honest assessment of the circumstances. I love my country, but I have many, many issues with how 'we' behave.

I'll take it you're a G.W.Bush fan.

2006-10-17 18:43:58
132.   weeping for brunnhilde
118 "However, when you start saying taht ARod is not a "team" player, I have no idea what you're talking about. I would say, as have many others, that Jeter does not look like much of "team" player for not backing up ARod."

I never said Arod wasn't a team player. I don't know if he is or isn't.

One of my points is that hypothetically I think there can be such a thing as a "clubhouse cancer" whose presence can theoretically effect (some of) his teammates' on-field performance by making the atmosphere tense instead of loose.

I believe that athletes (and indeed human beings) perform best when they're in a situation where they like or feel comfortable with the people around them. I believe there is such a thing as morale and that low morale can translate into poor performance and that one individual can, through his behavior, attitude, whatever, cause morale to drop.

That's my premise.

If I'm wrong about that, fine. But that's all my premise is. My premise is not that Arod is bad for morale, but rather that he might be bad for morale in the way that's been reported. All I'm saying is that, on the face of it, the notion doesn't strike me as so preposterous as to dismiss out of hand.

"Is it the fact that some players don't like him? So what? Again, we don't know very much about that and even if we did no one is getting paid to like anyone."

No, no one is getting paid to like anyone, but that doesn't mean that liking one another can't be a real factor that effects performance.

If I'm playing on a team where everyone thinks I suck, I'm going to be more tense because I'm going to feel I have something to prove and my failures are going to be more demoralizing if my teammates come up to me afterwards and tell me I suck and just lost the game for them.

The next time I come up, I'm going to feel that pressure and it's likely to distract me as I try to do what I have to do on the field.

Some people are uneffected by such criticisms, or can even use them to their advantage. But the reality is that some people are negatively effected by such interpersonal dynamics.

That's all I'm saying as to that.

In this particular case?--like you, I don't know.

"So until you can offer a better definition of what being a team is, and can offer some argument about how getting rid of Arod would produce thedesired effect (which would include defining how to get good teammates), then your srgument does not appearto be a very solid one."

Of course it's hard to know precisely what makes a good team, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to foresee potential conflicts.

Given the history between Jeter and Rodriguez, and the fact that they played the same position, and the fact that Rodriguez was better at that position than the beloved captain of the team, my gut reaction was, "This is a bad idea."

People have egos and neuroses and insecurities and I don't see why, when constructing a baseball team, you wouldn't try to avoid the potential for obvious clashes.

I'm just saying that I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest that these things are factors in a team's success.

How determinative are they? I have no idea, but just because I don't know doesn't mean that their influence is negligible.

2006-10-17 18:49:23
133.   Dimelo
I understand people don't want ARod traded, but why are people so willing to go to great lengths to defend him?

We were all pulling for him, I wanted nothing more than to see him succeed. But it has got to the point that we've all seen the games, we've seen all the drama (whether it was mostly media driven or stupid Yankee fans), and the guy just hasn't done much for the Yankees. I've stopped trying to going through all sorts of great pains to cite a handful of games and prove to everyone how great he is. It's not worth the energy anymore. The guy might be great, but he ain't ever gonna be Yankee great. I think there's a higher probability that the laws of physics could be reversed than ARod ever doing anything significant for the Yanks.

You can use all your stats VORP, RPG, WMD, IAB, but when it comes down to it....ARod has given Yankee fans very few good memories. Including his MVP year. ARod will always be remembered for a slap, a double play, and people hating him because he's "bi-racial".

Time to get rid of him....I loved him, I rooted for him, but it doesn't require an IQ north of 150 to realize the guy just has not worked out. I just hope he gets traded to the NL, I don't want to see him again......I don't want to see him succeed or fail, I just want to forget about the guy.

Just like Peter Abraham said that he sucks the energy out of a clubhouse, he has also sucked the energy out of me from defending him so many times.

2006-10-17 18:49:58
134.   Stormer Sports
I look at it this way:

Whether Arod had, has, or will have great numbers is beside the point. So far beside it in fact, that you would need some serious binoculars to see it. The numbers are a moot point. We all know what they are. Even the numbers can be looked at from different perspectives. Would he even have had 100 RBI if he played for say, Oakland? Probably not. But it matters not in the trade decision.

That being said, the reason a trade makes sense is two fold.

1. Distraction: I understand the man's talent, however, unless he goes on some crazy tear, he is going to be booed right from the get-go next year, count on it. And whether that is right or wrong is again, beside the point, it is going to happen no matter how you may individually feel about it. It will be 180 days of Arod this, and Arod that. It will be exponentially worse than it was this year, and again worse the following year, if the Yanks don't win and Arod struggles. This is just the way it will be, like it or not. It's not fair to the other players or coaches, and it will be a yolk around the Yankees neck just like it was this year, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

2. Pitching: God knows the Yankees need it. I won't cite the above posts, but the Yankees are not getting a group of studs from the Cubs for Arod, nor do the Yankees deserve it. His numbers, no matter how good, are not worth Zambrano, Ramirez et. al. I hate to agree with Cliff (just kidding), but Arod isn't heads and tails above the bunch anymore, and his salary, especially if the Texas contribution is voided, is way out of line with what even the best of the best are getting these days.

If you can get Zambrano and a top prospect for Arod straight up, you take it. He's better than Schmidt, he's better than Zito, and he brings a fire. The same fire that was sucked from the Yankees this year following 180 days of Arod obsession. An obsession that Arod did not one thing to curb, rather, he exacerbated it. Whether that was his intent, is again, beside the point.

It's not a question of numbers, records, and plaques. It is not about individual accomplishments. It is about Championships. It's quite simply, a question of what is best for the New York Yankees.

2006-10-17 18:51:44
135.   randym77
I guess we won't have T-Long to kick around any more. He's filed for free agency. As have Nick Green, Sal Fasano, Koyie Hill, Kris Wilson, Felix Escalona, and Aaron Small.

Speaking of Aaron Small...he was at Cory Lidle's funeral today. Apparently, he grew up with the Lidle twins. He considered them his younger brothers. Aaron's father, Art Small, presided over the funeral.

2006-10-17 18:52:23
136.   Stormer Sports

Me too. Want to know a secret? Brian Cashman and Yankee management know it too. It is only a question of whether they can look past the dollars he'll generate, and put the team first.

2006-10-17 18:58:30
137.   Dimelo
134 Well said. I think people have to look at this practically. We all rooted for the guy, we all went off on the "stupid" Yankee fans that booed...but guess what??...they were one step ahead of us and they were right. I don't condone the booing, but I understand it much more now than I ever have during ARod's tenure.

He has to be traded...I don't care if it's for a bag of M&M's at this point. I don't want to see him again. I've given up on the fact that we'll get equal value for him.

2006-10-17 18:59:11
138.   RIYank
133 I see!
Get rid of him because he doesn't produce good memories. Sure, he produces runs, his 'numbers' are great, but what matters are the memories.

134 "His numbers, no matter how good, are not worth Zambrano, Ramirez et. al."
No, he's worth more than they are.
But it's hard to know how to argue about this when you say that the numbers are beside the point.

2006-10-17 19:01:14
139.   pistolpete
Jeff Weaver can TOTALLY make up for 2003 by helping to eliminate the Mets in this series.

I'm kidding of course, but I'm still rooting for him.

2006-10-17 19:02:36
140.   Dimelo
138 Talk about totally missing the point. You can have ARod, trade him to the Royals for Billy Butler and Zack Greinke.
2006-10-17 19:04:05
141.   Simone
131 Actually, I thought you were a George W. Bush fan given your claim of loving the thing that you were undermining with your straw man arguments. Last time I checked this is baseball blog not a political one.
2006-10-17 19:05:35
142.   RIYank
137 Right, Dimelo, the 'practical' approach is to trade a player for someone who isn't as valuable. And it's really, really practical to trade him for players who are much less valuable.
When the A's traded Rickey Henderson to Yankees for Jay Howell and Jose Rijo, that must have been about the most practical move in the history of baseball.
2006-10-17 19:08:40
143.   Stormer Sports

There is more to baseball than numbers. On paper, we should have crushed Detroit, but we didn't, did we? The game is supposed to be fun Teams that have fun tend to have lower stress levels and end the season more fresh. I will gladly trade a 40 or so RBI drop off at 3B for a bona fide ace and a jettisoning of all the drama.

2006-10-17 19:08:46
144.   weeping for brunnhilde
Another reason, fwiw, why my expectations are/were so high for Arod and thus my sense of disappointment, is because I really liked Sori.

Yes, at the time, I felt deeply ambivalent about keeping him because of all that flailing at sliders off the plate in the 2003 postseason.

Part of me felt that we should be patient with him and let him mature as a hitter while part of me feared he never would and would therefore continue to be an easy out against good pitching in tight spots.

So when we got Arod, he was replacing someone I'd watched develop and was half looking forward to continuing to watch develop.

As a fan, I prefer to watch our guys develop.

But I came around and figured, well, ok, if he's the best player in baseball, I guess I should just enjoy him.

Meanwhile, Sori has gone on to achieve levels of production in the same general ballpark as Arod.

So part of my lack of raging enthusiasm for him has to do with that.

Btw, did you just see Encarnacion's slap hit to right field with two strikes?

That's the kind of hitting I like and the kind of hitting I wish Arod could do when the situation calls for it.

2006-10-17 19:16:10
145.   RIYank
Weeping, Soriano struck out 160 times last year.
He was fun to watch, but he's not exactly the kind of player you're raving about.
In Texas, by the way, he didn't really get close to A-Rod production. This year he did. And there's something about a 40-40 guy that's inspiring, I'll admit.
2006-10-17 19:18:09
146.   RIYank
I can't believe the Mets got out of that giving up only one run.
Oh, and Tom Glavine? Not clutch at all.
2006-10-17 19:24:17
147.   Stormer Sports
First Rogers, and now Weaver! Call Elaine and George, I'm going to Reggie's.
2006-10-17 19:24:43
148.   weeping for brunnhilde
145 No, he's absolutely not the kind of guy I like to see, that's why I was ambivalent about him.

My point is that I had affection for him that was built up over time, exasperating as I often found him. What I'm getting at is that I have feelings about these players and if you're going to ask me to say goodbye to one of them by arguing that the replacement is so much better, the onus is on him to win my affection, which means he'd better be pretty special.

I know everyone thinks Arod is pretty special, but as I keep saying, the qualities he shows at the plate that are special are, as far as I can see, basically in the fluiditiy of his swing and his strength.

But I'm just not fond of his approach when he's at the plate; he doesn't seem very good at situational hitting, by which I mean shortening his swing, going the other way, etc. when a single is what's needed.

His style of hitting just isn't particularly to my taste. Nor was Sori's, but as I say, at least he was our guy.

2006-10-17 19:27:10
149.   Dimelo
142 Billy Butler and Zack Greinke are players that are much less valuable? Greinke has some serious talent, despite his mental breakdown, I can see him succeeding on a winning team. Butler is one of Baseball America's top 100 prospects, the Royals number 1 prospect who can play 3rd.

Again, you can have ARod and his "numbers". I was like you at one time, constantly defending ARod....I saw the light and I see that he's no longer valuable or worthy.

I'd much prefer to see him in the NL than in the AL. I just don't think he has the intestinal fortitude to succeed in a high pressure environment. Actually....I don't think...I already know.

2006-10-17 19:32:45
150.   Stormer Sports

Are you nuts? If you love stats so much, try taking a look at them. Aramis Ramirez is on par with Arod, if not better. To ask for him and anyone of value would be silly. If the Cubs would take Arood for wither Ramirez or Zambrano straight up, I'd jump at it, and I think so will the Yankees. I will gladly trade 15 SB's to trade the one man lightning rod. The Cubs fans will love him no matter what he does, and that, after all, is what Alex really wants. It's about as perfect a trade as you could ask for.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-10-17 19:34:04
151.   Stormer Sports
"Arod for either..." ooops.
2006-10-17 19:36:32
152.   weeping for brunnhilde
You guys watching the Mets?

Does this Duncan character remind anyone else of a left-handed Steve Balboni?

2006-10-17 19:36:45
153.   Stormer Sports

But . . . that's also why the Cubs won't do it.

Come on Lou.....push it...push it. You can do it. You won't be in the Yankee dugout in October next year to put your best starter in an elimination game, like any other manager worth a damn would have done, the least you can do is take this clown off our hands.

2006-10-17 19:40:07
154.   Stormer Sports
Yikes. Mets about to crumble.

I guess it's true what they say, good pitching beats good hitting. Yea, we better keep Arod after all. Maybe we can teach him to pitch.

I'd much rather have Arod batting 4th than Zambrano on the mound in a playoff game . . . lol.

2006-10-17 19:42:53
155.   Stormer Sports
Why was Wesley Snipes indicted? Impersonating someone taller than 5'5"?
2006-10-17 19:47:34
156.   randym77
155 Tax fraud, I heard. Like, massive tax fraud. Ten million dollars or something like that.
2006-10-17 19:50:51
157.   OldYanksFan
Movie actor Wesley Snipes, star of "White Men Can't Jump" and the "Blade" films, was indicted Tuesday on eight counts of tax fraud accusing him of trying to cheat the government of $12 million in false refund claims.

Snipes, 44, also failed to file tax returns for six years, according to an indictment unsealed in Tampa, Florida.

Pocket change for me

2006-10-17 19:58:16
158.   vockins
150 On par? How do you figure? Ramirez hit 3 more HR than ARod playing half his games in a bandbox and had an OBP .040 short of him in 2006, a season which was "disappointing" for the latter and "incredible" for the former.

ARod in Wrigley would be obscene, but it's about as likely as a parade in Baghdad next Fourth of July.

2006-10-17 20:00:24
159.   Dimelo
ARod in NY is putrid.
2006-10-17 20:20:40
160.   OldYanksFan
Webster's definition of putrid:
3 seasons as a Yankee.
HRs: 120
OPS: .935
MVPs: 1
RISP: .872
RISP 2/outs: .895
SB/CS/%: 64-14-82%

to be rotten, from puter, putris rotten; akin to Latin putEre to stink

2006-10-17 20:25:29
161.   randym77
Unreal. They escaped unscathed.
2006-10-17 20:26:48
162.   weeping for brunnhilde
Valentin's gotta swing at that pitch.

He had to have been looking breaking ball there and at any rate, he's gotta protect.

That sucked.

2006-10-17 20:29:35
163.   weeping for brunnhilde
LaRussa was smart to go to his closer there.

If only Willie had gone to Heilman after Mota walked that guy on four pitches in game two.

2006-10-17 20:32:33
164.   weeping for brunnhilde
Wow. Mets announcers looking for Eckstein to squeeze.
2006-10-17 20:46:50
165.   randym77
And Jeff Weaver gets the win. He's POTG.
2006-10-17 20:46:59
166.   weeping for brunnhilde
That's it for the Mets.

Poor things.

It'll take a miracle now.

2006-10-17 20:56:51
167.   Yu-Hsing Chen
Trading A-rod is going to be risky for both sides either way. Cubs makes almost no sense, as they can't possibly part with Zambrano and A-ram .. that would leave what? Hill and Prior?

The deal that makes the most sense is still

Dodgers for

Kuo or Billingsly/ Laroche / Broxton or Brazobon.

2006-10-17 21:03:05
168.   Stormer Sports
Kenny fucking Rogers!

Jeff fucking Weaver!

"Everything that should be up, is down . . . and everything that should be down, is up."

Anyone that can place that quote gets a popsicle.

2006-10-17 21:03:49
169.   randym77 has posted the Minor League Six-Year Free Agent Listing:

Why isn't Colter Bean on the list? Shouldn't he be eligible by now?

2006-10-17 21:17:18
170.   pistolpete
166 You're forgetting '86? Mets came back into town 3 games to 2. I think we all know the rest.

Expect to see multiple Buckner clips tomorrow night.

2006-10-17 21:22:25
171.   Stormer Sports

Incredible? Like his MVP season in 2004. Aramis is a drama free player "nearly" on par with Arod year to year. I have never argued Arod's talent, rather his cancer-like impact on the Yankees.

Practical doesn't mean objective reasoning based on hard data and statistics. It means pragmatic, mindful of the likely outcome, weighed advantages and disadvantages. When one weighes all these things, it is quite possible to determine that Arod should be traded. It is not my contention that it will ultimately result in the best outcome, simply that a viable argument can be made for a trade.

I am open to the idea that he will play great and win a Championship in NY. Conversely, most Arod supporters, insofar as this blog is concerned, are unwilling to entertain the possibility that trading him might be the best thing for the team. It isn't that black and white, it just isn't.

2006-10-17 21:24:50
172.   Stormer Sports

I have a feeling this series is going to go seven. It's in the stars, it's the freakin Mets. Say what you will about them, but they are rarely boring in the playoffs.

2006-10-17 21:26:05
173.   Simone
138 I know that I should let this go, but the reasons presented for trading Alex on this thread are irrational. It is impossible to rebut these arguments because they are based on abstract non-baseball reasoning and "feelings." I bet these same people were against the Yankees trading the malcontent Sheffield who proceeded to breakdown the following year. This is pure insanity.
2006-10-17 21:37:55
174.   weeping for brunnhilde
171 "Practical doesn't mean objective reasoning based on hard data and statistics. It means pragmatic, mindful of the likely outcome, weighed advantages and disadvantages. When one weighes all these things, it is quite possible to determine that Arod should be traded. It is not my contention that it will ultimately result in the best outcome, simply that a viable argument can be made for a trade.

I am open to the idea that he will play great and win a Championship in NY. Conversely, most Arod supporters, insofar as this blog is concerned, are unwilling to entertain the possibility that trading him might be the best thing for the team. It isn't that black and white, it just isn't. "

Well said, Stormer. You've said with concision what I stumble and ramble and sputter and muse to express.


And I give up on the quote, though it sounds like a variation on what's-his-name's "the center cannot hold." The poet who also wrote that great poem about Leda and the Swan, what's his name? Ah--Yeats! Duh.

It's some good old-fashioned apocalypticism, which generally tickles me.

2006-10-17 21:39:34
175.   Stormer Sports

Sheffield didn't "break down," he got injured on a rough play down the first base line playing hard. Based on your reasoning, we should have traded Matsui along with Sheffield becuause he is getting older, and he "broke down" on a fairly routine play in Left Field.

And Alex didn't show at Lidle's funeral, while Brian Cashman, Joe Torre, Reggie Jackson, Jason Giambi, Aron Small, and Derek Jeter did. If you want to step up Alex, step up. It would have been a good opportunity to show everyone that he takes being a Yankee seriously, dut he didn't take advantage of it.

Being a Yankee is different than being an Oriiole or Indian, or Ranger for that matter. It's a committment, and the greatest Yankees have all understood that.

2006-10-17 21:40:55
176.   Stormer Sports
Cory Lidle's Funeral:

Torre: "I was his manager for a couple of months, though I knew of him professionally for quite a while," Torre said during the reception at Faith Community Church in West Covina. "What sticks with me, what I keep replaying, is the fact that I went out to the mound and gave him the ball, and I went out to the mound and took the ball away for the last time on that day in Detroit," he said, referring to the Yankees' 8-3 loss to the Tigers on Oct. 7 in Game 4 of their American League division series.

"I didn't get to know him very well personally because we were only together a short time, but he seemed to blend in very well with our team," Torre added. "And now the future that you sort of planned, there is no future other than his memory. But I know one thing: the fact that he was a Yankee and that he was very, very pleased when I called him after the trade, pleased he was to be a part of our Yankee family. Unfortunately, he couldn't have been there longer."

"There were so many sensitive things," Torre said. "When you deal professionally, it just scratches the surface on what someone is really about. Friendships that he forged early on, before his baseball career, were still there. I think that speaks a lot about someone."

Giambi: "That was our dream," Giambi said of the goal of becoming a professional that he shared with Lidle. "For a team and an area to produce big-league ballplayers, it was exciting. We always reminisced about the old times."

Jeter: Jeter said that while he did not know Lidle very well or for very long, he wanted to be there for Lidle's family.

"He has a wife and a young son," Jeter said. "However difficult it is for us, it's more difficult for them, so we're just here to show our support. It's a rough day."

2006-10-17 21:41:01
177.   weeping for brunnhilde
170 I know, I'd love to believe, especially for Willie's sake, but they don't even have a starter for Game 7, should it come.

I'm impressed they've made it this far, though; once Duque fell, I figured they wouldn't even compete.

And honestly, I think if Willie had put in Heilman in Game 2, things still might be different.

Leaving Mota in there was a major blunder, imo.

2006-10-17 21:43:25
178.   weeping for brunnhilde
176 Thanks for those words, Stormer, they're quite touching.
2006-10-17 21:50:03
179.   Stormer Sports

I actually was hoping he would start Heilman. Given what they had left, you need to find a guy to shut down the opposition and let your team get a lead. The Mets just don't have that guy, it's kind of sad really. I was pulling for them.

2006-10-17 21:52:00
180.   Start Spreading the News
143 Then you won't mind watching other teams play October baseball.

Say what you want about A-rod. His massive talent gets use to the postseason. What other team can suffer the loss of Matsui, Sheffield? At some point, we had almost every starter hurt. No other team could do that. The reason why we could is because of the production we get our other positions. Giambi and A-Rod.

Now postseason requires pitching. That's true. But you have to get to the postseason.

The ONLY person I trade A-rod for is Johan Santana. Zambrano is not a certified ace. He is an innings eater who is good but not great.

149 So when he hit the homer off Shilling AT BOSTON when Shilling came out of the bullpen. That was low pressure? In front of screaming Red Sox fans? When he destroyed the Twins in 2004 in the first round of the playoffs, that was low pressure? When he was hitting the tar out of the ball the first 3 games of the ALDS that year, that was low pressure?

How quickly fans forget! Why don't fans boo him some more and see if you can make your prediction of his failure a self-fulfilling one?

150 A-Ram vs A-Rod
ARAM in a hitters ballpark has three years
with 951,926,913 OPS == avg 930

AROD in a pitcher ballpark has three years with 887,1031,915 == 944

So already without making the league and park adjustments, AROD has better numbers. With those adjustments, AROD's numbers OPS+ is 133, 167, 140. ARAM's numbers is 136, 137, 126.

And ARAM can't steal and is slow and is below par defensively. AROD for his first two years has been above par. This year he was below par.

So no ARAM is not as good as AROD anyway you cut it.

I blame Torre for mishandling A-Rod. Rather than leaving Arod alone when he had a 1157 OPS september, Torre had the SI article published. That set the media circus in full swing and killed A-rod's swing.

You want to blame someone for this season's failure. Blame Torre not A-rod.

Or have you forgotten A-Rod's MVP already?

2006-10-17 22:20:48
181.   ToyCannon
So true, if you all trade ARod no matter who you get it will sit right next to the Frank Robinson was done at 31 deal when the Reds traded him to the Orioles for the "ace" Milt Pappas and other flotsum.
2006-10-17 22:25:41
182.   Stormer Sports
Andy Pettitte is a free agent? Dare I say it?
2006-10-17 22:34:53
183.   weeping for brunnhilde
182 Sign him.


2006-10-18 04:37:18
184.   RIYank
150 Aramis Ramirez is a tremendous player. I don't know why you think I ever denied that. He isn't as good a player as Rodriguez, but he's still really good.
You actually do want to trade a player for another player who isn't as good. I just find that mind-boggling. I wish to God that you worked for the Red Sox.

"Practical doesn't mean objective reasoning based on hard data and statistics. It means pragmatic, mindful of the likely outcome, weighed advantages and disadvantages."

When I try to work out which outcomes are likely, I use the information available. But that's statistics.

Here's where I stand: the 'cancer in the clubhouse' story is a fairy tale. If someone actually believes that having Alex Rodriguez in the clubhouse makes other players perform worse, then let's see the evidence.
Oh, sorry. Evidence would be statistics. Darn.

154 "I'd much rather have Arod batting 4th than Zambrano on the mound in a playoff game . . . lol."
Oh, it would be great to get one of those good NL pitchers starting for your AL team. That's worked out great for the Red Sox and the Yankees so far!

2006-10-18 04:53:34
185.   KJC
170 "Expect to see multiple Buckner clips tomorrow night."

Crap...I thought 2004 put an end to those!

2006-10-18 05:37:16
186.   The Mick 536

Know this article is unsettling. Just about bats being used inappropriately in the Green Mountains.

As for the A-Rod banter, better him than anyone. Let's work on the hurling staff.

2006-10-18 07:01:23
187.   choirboyzgirl
175- This is why I spend so much time defending Alex. The personal attacks, you have no idea why Alex wasn't at the funeral so you assume its because he doesn't seriously want to be a Yankee? How?

I would expect Brian Cashman and Reggie Jackson to go (as they represented the Yankees organization), Joe Torre (as a manager I would expect him to attend,Jason Giambi (he was a close friend of Corey's I would expect him to be there) and Derek Jeter (as the captain of the team I would expect him to be there as well). There were several other Yankee team members who weren't there....does that mean they don't seriously want to be Yankees either?

I'm okay with the baseball skills, effort etc. and Alex trade talks. But when it comes to personal attacks with no evidence then I usually speak up.

2006-10-18 14:52:28
188.   randym77
187 Agree on that. Jeter, Reggie, Torre, and Cashman were there to represent the Yankees.

Jason Giambi has known Cory and his wife since they were in high school. I assume it must be something similar with Jaret Wright; he is also from southern California.

Aaron Small was also there; he's known Cory and Kevin even longer than Giambi has.

I'm surprised Aaron Guiel didn't attend. He was supposedly Cory's closed friend on the team. Or maybe he was there, and the press didn't see fit to mention it.

In any case, there's no reason to expect A-Rod to be there.

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