Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
2006-08-30 05:34
by Alex Belth

The Yankees were rained-out last night and will play a two games today--Chien-Ming Wang will start this afternoon, while Jaret Wright goes this evening (the Big Unit will start tomorrow). The Bombers gained a half-a-game on the Red Sox, who lost 2-1 in Oakland last night (now, Beckett starts to pitch well, right?). It was the fifth straight loss for Boston and the 11th in their last 13 games. Manny Ramirez and Willy Mo Pena returned to the east coast to undergo medical testing while David Ortiz will be carefully monitored at Mass General. I hope that Ortiz will pull through and be able to resume his career. The Yankees are thinking about him as well:

"It's never comforting to know a player has a physical problem, even if we are competing with them for the East," Joe Torre said. "Certainly I like the fact that he's not playing but I don't like the fact that he's not playing for that reason."

..."He's very important in that clubhouse," said Mike Myers, who also came over from the Sox during the offseason. "You can't ignore his numbers and all he does for the team. And within the clubhouse when I was there . . . he was one of the best personalities to have."
(Roger Rubin, N.Y. Daily News)

The Red Sox, however, may be looking toward next year already; according to the Boston Globe, they are reportedly listening to offers for Boomer Wells. Injuries and lousy pitching have simply devastated the Sox.

Meanwhile, while the New York papers continue to harp on the Carl Pavano story, Hideki Matsui will take live batting practice today in the indoor batting cage at Yankee Stadium:

Matsui said he is generally pleased with how he's progressing. "In terms of being pain-free, that's something I definitely feel good about," he said before last night's Yankee game with Detroit was rained out. "I'm very satisfied.

"I'm still working on my mechanics and little things. That's kind of where I'm at right now. I'm definitely still being conscious about the wrist when I swing. Eventually I'll really move on to working on my mechanics thoroughly."

Matsui said the actual mechanics of his swing aren't that bad, but he needs to improve his timing.
(Michael Morrissey, N.Y. Post)

Matsui will likely be relegated to DHing when he returns but it now seems as if we'll see the return of Godzilla before all is said and done this year.

Comments (401)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-08-30 06:21:45
1.   wsporter

The Globe seems to think Papi is going to be OK which is great news if they're right. We should keep everything crossed in hopes that's true.

2006-08-30 06:26:21
2.   Sliced Bread
Ortiz, Manny, Wily Mo, and Boomer on the private jet back to Boston. They're playing cards.

Ortiz: Man, it sucks we can't be there for the team.

Manny: What team?

Wily Mo: The Boston Red Sox, bro. (laughs) You heard of them, right?

Oblivious, Manny inspects his cards.

Wells: Tell ya what else sucks, (takes big bite out of sandwich, and continues) you hear they're trying to trade me?

Ortiz: Aw, man. Well, maybe they won't be able to find a pitcher of equal value, and you'll be stay us down the stretch.

Wells (laughing): The stretch? We're cooked, bro. Believe me, I know cooked when I smell it.

Ortiz: Nah, man, we got a chance. We got players coming back. I hope they don't trade you.

Wily Mo: Remember, they also tried to trade Manny a few times, and didn't work out.

Manny: Who did?

Wily Mo: The bosses, man, they put you on waivers.

Long pause as Manny ponders his cards.

Manny (re: the pot): I'll raise, $50 bucks.

Wells: I'll see your $50, and raise, uh, half a roast beef grinder.

Wily Mo: Grinder?

Wells bites sandwich again.

Ortiz: In New England they call a sandwich a grinder, and a "bomb" is when it's hot, with melted cheese.

Wells: This is da bomb, (takes another bite) Roast beef with fuggin' Fluffernutter.

Ortiz: Yo, I love roast beef but maybe that's not the best thing for my heart.

Manny: What's a heart?

2006-08-30 06:46:21
3.   rsmith51
2 That is funny...
2006-08-30 06:53:40
4.   Simone
Great news about Matsui! The Yankees line up will be crazy good. Sucks that Pavano very likely won't be returning this season though.

The Red Sox look done. Hopefully, the Yankees can put a couple more games on the lead before Manny and/or Ortiz return.

2006-08-30 06:56:13
5.   rbj
2 Great, Sliced.
2006-08-30 06:58:51
6.   Chyll Will
2 Haaa!, unbelievable! Ya think they're trying to trade Wells for Ortiz' sake? That's why you know they ain't trying to pick him up here; with Cheesesteak behind the plate, we'd have a new set of Cardiac Kids coming into a playoffs. Thanks for that wakedafrickup!
2006-08-30 07:06:57
7.   Sliced Bread
Thanks. That conversation quickly came to mind when I read they were on the plane together.

I still don't consider the Red Sox out of it.

Any team that has Ortiz and Ramirez in the lineup, and pitchers with a pulse can win games.

Without Ortiz and Manny, yes, the Sox are toast. With them, they still have a puncher's chance of making the playoffs.

If the Red Sox have better luck than Carl Pavano, and right now, I'd say they're about equal in the bum luck department, Ortiz will get a clean bill of health soon, and he'll drag Manny out there with him.

Yogi says "It ain't over, 'til it's over."

2006-08-30 07:16:54
8.   Simone
What was with Garcia hitting Delmon Young? Who made ignorant big mouth Ozzie Guillen the guardian of all things baseball? Maddon should have put a beat down on Guillen. I hope Young hits home runs all day long against them for his whole career. Whatever the kid did in the past, he will be a superstar in MLB and he should be treatment better.
2006-08-30 07:37:32
9.   pistolpete
Always have to be wary of Boston no matter how far they're behind us, but if you're the Yankees how far is enough before they start giving guys time off?

And I'm not sure if Manny/Ortiz/Pena is going to make much of a difference when the pitching is what's been hurting.

2006-08-30 07:46:15
10.   JL25and3
8 Why do you assume that Garcia hit him intentionally? Why would he?

I'm sure Garcia intended to push him off the plate - maybe even go up and in - and I don't have a problem with that. It's the kid's first at-bat, let him know who owns home plate, maybe even see if you can intimidate him. Is he the kind who leans aggressively out over the plate? Tell him now that that might not be a great idea. Maybe you can neutralize him right off the bat, at least partly, at least for this series.

I'm strongly against intentionally trying to hit a batter, even in "retaliation." But pitching inside is part of the game.

I can't see why the Sox would hit him for his minor-league conduct; that just doesn't make sense to me. At the same time, the fact that Young "will be a superstar in MLB" shouldn't buy him any preferential treatment - in fact, I think it's appropriate to pitch to him more aggressively.

And, of course, Young dealt with it in the best possible way, by hitting a homer later in the game.

2006-08-30 07:50:05
11.   Zack
Good to hear Papi will prob. be okay, but I got the sense that everyone sort of knew that going in, but that you can never be too safe. Do you think Oritz will have to lose some weight? He has always seemed to be a big guy, but that can't be helping...just pondering...

Well, Wanger has been much worse this year pitching during the day than the night, for whatever reason: 4.48 vs. 3.48, as opposed to last year where in 3 day starts he had an era of 1.86. I'm gonna chalk it up to small sample size on both counts and hope we see Cy Wang!

2006-08-30 07:54:39
12.   standuptriple
10 I had the same vibe and can't remember Garcia being a jerk. I could be wrong. But there is something to be said for a veteran guy showing the "Greatest rookie since sliced bread" (no offense SB) who the top dog is. I like a pitcher who isn't scared to go inside and intimidates hitters. Especially cocky, 1st round primadonnas who need to show more respect for the game.
If Ozzie did call for it I will completely change my tune.
2006-08-30 07:55:25
13.   wsporter
9 15 up with 14 to play would be my vote.
2006-08-30 07:57:05
14.   Bama Yankee
12 "I like a pitcher who isn't scared to go inside and intimidates hitters. Especially cocky, 1st round primadonnas who need to show more respect for the game."

Amen. Well said, standuptriple.

2006-08-30 07:58:14
15.   Bama Yankee
2 You da man, Sliced...
2006-08-30 08:04:51
16.   kylepetterson
Let me preface this by saying that I am probably going to offend someone with this so, if you're easily offended, skip to the next post. However, given the chance, I feel it is my duty to say this:

12 "I like a pitcher who isn't scared to go inside and intimidates hitters. Especially cocky, 1st round primadonnas who need to show more respect for the game."

As long as you aren't talking about Wang or Johnson, I'm okay with that.

2006-08-30 08:18:12
17.   Count Zero
7, 9, 13 I know what Yogi said, but man...IT'S OVER! 9 games in the L column with 30 to play is about as over as it gets. For the RSox to win the AL East, the Yanks would have to hand it to them by doing something like go 14-18 the rest of the way. Even then, the RSox would have to go 22-8 to win it outright. I'm not saying it's impossible -- I'm just saying we have to hand it to them.

You guys just keep saying it ain't over because simply put, it's less fun this way than when we have to fight for it in September. If we give up the AL East at this point, we don't DESERVE to be in the post-season...I don't care what Boston does.

2006-08-30 08:27:42
18.   LI yankee
17 If we give up this lead, we deserve to be contracted.

This race is over. I'm just worried about who we're going to be matched up with in the playoffs. I'd rather play the Twins (minus Liriano of course)

2006-08-30 08:35:43
19.   wsporter
17 Count I think normally if you don't win it you don't deserve it or at least someone else deserves it more. 1954 and 1985 are pretty good examples of that.

Believe me I wish Boston would find itself 82 out with 80 to go. Who needs the kind of ajida we had last year? You're right, Boston has a tough row to hoe but it's not impossible. Until it is impossible I'll stand next to Yogi.

Having said all that I think Mr. Torre ought to continue the sitting rotation he emplyed over the last 20 games. I think he wants them rested, healthy and sharp; that rotation seems a good way to make that happen. Some guys (Giambi) may need more rest than others. I guess they should start getting it.

2006-08-30 08:37:06
20.   Shaun P
17 This morning's BP Postseason Odds report:

Division: 98.88285
Wild Card: .10568
Overall: 98.98853

Red Sox
Division: .90425
Wild Card: 1.24148
Playoffs: 2.14573

The Sox have less than a 1% chance of winning the division at this point. Given the schedule of each team down the stretch, and the Yanks' 9 game lead in the loss column, I'd say its probably over.

2006-08-30 08:39:43
21.   unpopster
I have to agree with 17, this race is OVER!

IMHO, the return of Manny and Ortiz -- or even wakefield and Tek -- will not save the Sawx season. Their pitching is in a shambles and if you look at the other guys on that team such as Lowell, CoCo and Loretta, it is obvious that they are absolutely exhausted.

Guys, someone made a good observation a few days ago when he/she stated that the '06 Sox are the '05 Yankee, but without Small and Chacon. Right now, there is no one on their pitching staff that is saving that team.

Even if Schilling continues his fine pitching and suddenly Beckett becoems Clemens, the rest of that staff is a nightmare. Lester is on the DL and it looks like Wells is going to be traded any minute now. Who is their Aaron Small? Who is their Shawn Chacon?

I know the '04 ALCS has made us, as Yankee fans, very nervous about "holding leads," but as long as we have Jeter, Giambi, Posada, Cano, Abreu, Damon, Melky, Bernie and ofcourse Torre in the dugout (notice how I left out Arod), the 2006 Yankees are NOT going to lose this lead in the AL East.

Friends, as they say in New England, it's OVAAAAHH.

2006-08-30 08:41:03
22.   Count Zero
19 I hear what you're saying man, but at this point, Boston cannot win the AL East -- we have to lose it. In my mind there's a big difference between being beaten, and beating yourself. We can only beat ourselves at this point.
2006-08-30 08:43:41
23.   unpopster
Having said what I said in 21, let me also admit that, as much as I like the fact that the Yanks will now win the division, I find the current situation boring.

Unlike 1998 when the huge lead kept my interest because of the run towards the MLB wins record, the collapse of the Red Sox will leave me with an empty feeling for the rest of this month.

Those 4 games against Boston at The Stadium should mean something...too bad they won't.

2006-08-30 08:50:09
24.   Bama Yankee
23 What about going for the home field advantage in the playoffs? We still have that to shoot for.
2006-08-30 09:00:11
25.   wsporter
22 I agree completely. It's ours to loose. I don't think we'll have to win 110 to wrap this thing up so some rest for the boys will be a good thing.

20 MFD looking better every day. Thanks!

2006-08-30 09:00:21
26.   Sliced Bread
24 Right on, Bama. Might need to sweep this series to get homefield.

Home field would be huge for the Yanks, especially for Mr. Wang who is less Wangtastic on the road.

Keep it down today, Chien Ming. Sinker city against these sluggers.

2006-08-30 09:01:30
27.   Bama Yankee
19 "ajida" Does that mean hearburn?
2006-08-30 09:04:00
28.   pistolpete
23 Sorry, but I quite enjoy that feeling of having virtually wrapped up the division - the one you refer to as 'empty'. ;-)
2006-08-30 09:04:12
29.   Bama Yankee
27 or heartburn. I tried to look it up and that's the best definition I could get. Just never heard that term and was curious. Thanks wsporter for the new word.
2006-08-30 09:06:16
30.   Sliced Bread
27 Bingo. Spelled "agita." It's one of my favorite Italian words.
2006-08-30 09:07:00
31.   wsporter
I don't know about "hearburn" but it does mean something akin to "heartburn". Is "hearburn" one of those a "Bamian" catches if it gets too close to Auburn?
2006-08-30 09:08:16
32.   unpopster
29 never heard the term "ajida" before? Hmmm, must be because you don't have many paisans down in 'bama.

it's a pretty common term up here in the North East. yes, it does mean heartburn.

2006-08-30 09:08:28
33.   wsporter
30 I've seen it both ways, we've always gone with the "j".
2006-08-30 09:14:57
34.   Travis
Lineups for Game 1 are out. I'm a bit surprised Bernie isn't playing, given his performance against a lefty on Sunday.

Granderson, CF
Gomez, RF
Young, DH
Monroe, LF
Guillen, SS
Rodriguez, C
Casey, 1B
Perez, 2B
Inge, 3B

Robertson, P

Damon, CF
Jeter, SS
Abreu, RF
Giambi, DH
Rodriguez, 3B
Posada, C
Cano, 2B
Cabrera, LF
Wilson, 1B

Wang, P

2006-08-30 09:15:26
35.   Sliced Bread
33 Yeah, I've seen it with j's and g's, and d's, and t's. One could get heartburn trying to figure it out.
2006-08-30 09:16:53
36.   Sliced Bread
34 Must be for defense with Wanger going. Giambi has good #'s against Robertson. 5-for-7 or something like that.
Bernie has bad #'s against him.
2006-08-30 09:17:05
37.   Shawn Clap
Over???? Do guys mean like 2004 ALCS over?

I won't be comfortable until Boston DirtDogs posts pics of the Sox playing golf in early October.

2006-08-30 09:18:23
38.   Bama Yankee
31 ROFL. Yeah, I guess Bama fans have had "hearburn" for the last four years after losing the Iron Bowl to Auburn.

BTW, down here in Alabama when someone asks for directions to Auburn we tell them "Go south till you smell it and east till you step in it"

2006-08-30 09:21:18
39.   JL25and3
I've always seen it as "agita," which makes sense assuming it comes from Italian. More info here:
2006-08-30 09:21:58
40.   Bama Yankee
32 & 30 Thanks again wsporter (you too Sliced). That's one of the reasons I love this board. I always seem to learn something new just about every day.
2006-08-30 09:23:44
41.   mickey1956
24 Bama. Homefiled advantage for the Yanks means only an extra game at home if they make it to the alcs against Detroit only. A rested group of pitchers is much more important I think.

38 We have the same joke here in Columbia about clemson "Go north till ya smell it and west till ya step in it. Rivalry jokes are the same the world over.

2006-08-30 09:27:55
42.   Schteeve
It's not over in the sense that Joe should give the entire team September off, but it's over enough that Posada should get a bunch of rest in September, and Wang should be on strict pitch counts, and Proctor should get his workload cut in half. I recall Posada not doing too much with the bat in the post season and it's usually attributed to fatigue. I think he needs to get a lot of rest down the stretch.
2006-08-30 09:34:44
43.   Jim Dean
Anyone else read Soxaholix - good stuff - keep twisting that knife - just not into the toaster.

Seriously how much has Prince Epstein's stock fallen in the last year? It's hard to claim a youth movement when these are guys they traded:

Josh Bard (.900 OPS in 85 G)
Cla Meredith (.90 ERA in 23 G)
Anibal Sanchez (5-2 3.41 ERA in 12 G)
Hanley Ramirez (.789 OPS, 41 SB)

That's four potential future All-Stars, and all at different key positions (C, BP, SP, SS)!


Doug Mirabelli
Josh Beckett

Really - that would get some guys fired if they made those deals over three years.

And who thinks Arroyo wouldn't have helped them more than Pena, even as the later may still turn out okay? But first he has to stay healthy. Even then Arroyo was srviceable #4 or #5 with a decent contract. Pena better end up being more than a platoon guy or that trade is a negative too.

2006-08-30 09:34:51
44.   standuptriple
42 One thing that I've been happy with this year with Posada is that in the off season he seemed to recognize his age limitations and came into camp a little lighter. Hoepfully that will lead to better long term numbers and a little more stamina come October. But yes, I would not mind if he got a few extra days in the next month. He will be very importang cog to a championship run.
2006-08-30 09:35:53
45.   Jim Dean
Oh, and it's over indeed - start the count down - the magic number is 25!
2006-08-30 09:36:21
46.   Marcus
41 So you are a gamecock are you? 8 out of the last 9 smells good from over here...

I'm a Tiger, if you couldn't tell ;)

2006-08-30 09:37:12
47.   Sliced Bread
Just flipped over to YES in time to hear Kimberly Jones say, "Here's Joe on Wang..."

Why did that make me laugh?

2006-08-30 09:38:26
48.   Sliced Bread
47 Oh, right. I'm a man with the mind of a 5th grader. I keep forgetting. My wife keeps reminding...
2006-08-30 09:40:47
49.   Chyll Will
47 Because you're demented and we honor you for it >;)
2006-08-30 09:44:14
50.   rbj
It ain't over until Bud hands the trophy to a weeping Steinbrenner (with A-Rod named WS MVP w/ 4 HR & 10 RBI).

I'm thinking it might not be a bad thing to play one extra game in Tiger Stadium, er Comerica Park. Unit gives up lots of fly balls, and if Wang isn't dead on, he'll tend to do the same. Comerica's spacious enough that that won't hurt too much.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-08-30 09:45:19
51.   Jim Dean
A question for knowledgeable folks:

Why aren't SB included in the calculation of SLG? Is there an equivalent that does?

The reason being is SLG = TB/AB. But for a guy like Reyes or Ramirez or even old school Ricky H - if you look at their .OPS it's much less impressive than if the SB was included in one of the measures. It seems like when you walk, or give up a single to, a guy like them, it's likely to turn into a 'double' or 'triple'. Why not account for it?

It just seems like that would be an easy way to account for their offensive value without any advanced calculations. And it would only make a difference for guys who use the SB as a part of their game. I suppose you could use CS as a negative measure and it would be even more accurate.

Unless I'm missing something really obvious?

2006-08-30 09:46:03
52.   JL25and3
44 No if only Joe would recognize his age limitations and not work him so damn hard all season...
2006-08-30 09:46:15
53.   JL25and3
2006-08-30 09:48:08
54.   Cliff Corcoran
43 Bard isn't young or good, this is that one fluke season all crap-hitting back-up catchers have.
2006-08-30 09:50:15
55.   JL25and3
51 SA is meant to be more a measure of power, not only advancing yourself but advancing others. That's why walks aren't included, either.
2006-08-30 09:52:56
56.   JL25and3
43, 54 Not only is Bard not that good, the Sox needed Mirabelli's glove a lot more than they needed Bard's bat. That trade was an upgrade for them.

Besides, take it in context - think of it as Josh Bard for Mark Loretta, and all of a sudden it's a pretty good deal.

2006-08-30 09:54:21
57.   mehmattski
51 OPS is but one of many statistics that are better predictors of sustained performance than traditional stats like AVG and RBI. It isn't perfect, however, and you mentioned an important knock against it. It also can't tell the difference between a guy whose OBP/SLG is .500/.500 and a guy at .300/.700, even though those two are entirely different players. For that reason a lot of us here (and elsewhere) write the "rate stats" as three numbers, AVG/OBP/SLG... that gives a more thorough view of a player than OPS alone.

That still doesn't involve baserunning, you're right. That's why the statheads introduced EQA, or equivalent average. You can read about it here:

Basically, it combines the best parts about OPS with some baserunning to make for a single number that can be compared between all players, speed-demons and sluggers alike. Its adjusted so that its on a similar scale to AVG: .260 is league average, .300 is very good, and .330 is hall of fame worthy.

Hope that helps.

2006-08-30 09:58:54
58.   BklynBmr
FYI: Extra Innings just added game one to today's broadcast schedule...
2006-08-30 10:00:39
59.   Travis
51 The best easily calculable statistic that incorporates slugging and stolen bases (plus walks) is secondary average, which is essentially extra bases divided by at bats. The median secondary average Power hitters who walk a lot (Giambi) have very high secondary averages, while free-swinging singles hitters (most shortstops) have very low ones.



2006-08-30 10:00:45
60.   mickey1956
46 8 of 9 is exactly why we need the jokes. Being a Gamecock fan has always made me very sympathetic to Red Sox fans. I know what it feels like to get the smack down year after year.
2006-08-30 10:03:00
61.   Jim Dean
54 56 Bard is 28 switch-hitting in a pitchers park. I'd say he's a bit better than "crap" and especially better than Mirabelli. That trade is an embarassment, even just judging this season. Anything he gives them in the future is a bonus - though All-star may certainly be a stretch.

57 Thanks! Just playing with the numbers it's amazing what SB do to SLG if included.

2006-08-30 10:14:04
62.   yankee23
Something from ESPN actually made me not-angry today:

2006-08-30 10:16:14
63.   rbj
Nice 1 2 3 first for Worm Killer.
2006-08-30 10:18:43
64.   Schteeve
looks like Jetes is back to his "all he does is hit" ways.
2006-08-30 10:26:49
65.   Marcus
61 Notwithstanding Bard's performance this year, the thing that makes the trade so bad is that it was a panic move. Theo gave up a reliever with some promise in addition to Bard for Mirabelli, all because he was scared the Yankees were going to beat Wakefield on passed balls in one upcoming game. Regardless of whether Meredith's numbers are aided by Petco, the Sox could have sure used a guy like him the last month or so.
2006-08-30 10:29:08
66.   pistolpete
65 "all because he was scared the Yankees were going to beat Wakefield on passed balls in one upcoming game"

Exactly. And so early in the season, no less.

2006-08-30 10:30:10
67.   Cliff Corcoran
Guillen was definitely out, Posada with another perfect throw to the inside of the bag and Cano with a fast tag on the shin. Money.
2006-08-30 10:30:56
68.   Schteeve
Posada = Gunslinger.
2006-08-30 10:30:57
69.   pistolpete
Posada started to throw out runners with more consistency last season, but this year he's just unconscious.
2006-08-30 10:31:55
70.   Yankee Fan In Boston
how many has JoPo caught this season? he's been incredible behind the plate this year. it seems like he does something like that every game i get to watch...
2006-08-30 10:32:37
71.   Marcus
60 I was a transplant from upstate NY, so the rivalry isn't embedded in my DNA like some from SC. It lends itself to some entertaining games, though, and that's about all I really care about. Cheers to a fellow South Cackalackian!
2006-08-30 10:32:41
72.   JL25and3
67 I didn't see the play, but one thing I've noticed about Cano since he first came up: he's exceptional at getting tags down.
2006-08-30 10:32:59
73.   Schteeve
How am I supposed to take the Tigers seriously when Neifi! is their starting second baseman?
2006-08-30 10:34:19
74.   Jim Dean
65 66. Exactly and a classic moment in the collapse of the Sox is the police escort so Mirabelli would make it in time. Priceless, esp. with how many Yankee fans bitched about the trade and how the Sox fans were reveling with euphoria like Mirabelli was somehow going to shift the whole race.

And no doubt Beckett was acquired because of his Yankee-killer past. What they gave up there is an even bigger mistake. Again, priceless.

2006-08-30 10:35:46
75.   pistolpete
OMG, I can almost hear the boos in my head as I refreshed GameChannel and saw the A-Rod DP.
2006-08-30 10:36:03
76.   Schteeve
If you told me at the beginning of the year that Johhny Damon would have 6 more home runs than Posada, I would have told you to shut up.
2006-08-30 10:37:54
77.   rsmith51
At least ARod put the bat on the ball. Did he happen to hit it somewhat solidly?
2006-08-30 10:38:59
78.   Yankee Fan In Boston
77 he pounded the crap out of it...

...right into the dirt in front of the plate.

2006-08-30 10:40:46
79.   pistolpete
74 Boston seems to wear themselves thin, more often than not, because of an all-things-Yankees-obsessed front office. Beckett, Schilling, Ortiz - all Yankee killers in their previous careers. I wouldn't be shocked if Theo goes after half the Angels roster this offseason. Heh.

The one exception on the Yankees payroll being Mike Myers, of course.

2006-08-30 10:42:12
80.   pistolpete
79 I forgot to add that sometimes acquiring a 'Yankee killer' does help the ballclub, but the Mirabelli/Wakefield situation was taking it too far.
2006-08-30 10:42:13
81.   Yankee Fan In Boston
now YES is showing a split screen comparing jeter going down to hit a low pitch for a single to rodriguez's swing into the DP...


2006-08-30 10:42:38
82.   Cliff Corcoran
Replay of Rodriguez's swing on the DP ball shows he's swinging defensively. He's not attacking the ball and driving through the ball, he's pulling off it, it's almost like he's trying to swing too fast so he's just hacking rather than using that beautiful swing of his.

Nice play by Wang, jumping up and reaching across his body to snag a hopper on it's way up and over his right shoulder.

2006-08-30 10:42:59
83.   JL25and3
Yeah, those Schilling and Ortiz deals have really come back to bite them in the butt.
2006-08-30 10:45:00
84.   Cliff Corcoran
Cano is great on getting tags down and making relay throws, he's got an incredible arm, can make strong throws from any position, he's increasing his range this season, the guy could be a gold glover if he keeps improving. My only concern is that he doesn't have much footspeed, so if he slows down at all his range could dry up completely.
2006-08-30 10:45:16
85.   pistolpete
83 See my addendum. ;)
2006-08-30 10:45:21
86.   standuptriple
83 What about Tek? Isn't he signed for two more years?
2006-08-30 10:46:20
87.   Yankee Fan In Boston

were they ripping him in the booth?
...i'm watching without audio... i'm at work in a library...

2006-08-30 10:46:27
88.   JL25and3
The point of getting Mirabelli back wsn't that he was a Yankee killer. The Sox need a backup catcher for one thing only: to catch Wakefield. Bard was completely inadequate. It wasn't a matter of one game, he couldn't do it at all.
2006-08-30 10:46:49
89.   Schteeve
Well, the free swinging Tigers must have listened to Todd Jones. Wang is going to have to get a lot more efficient if he wants to get into the 7th today.
2006-08-30 10:46:57
90.   Cliff Corcoran
Inge hit a hard hoper to Rodriguez's left, he took three steps and dove, but it tipped off the end of his glove and rolled into left for a single.
2006-08-30 10:47:42
91.   Cliff Corcoran
87 No, they seem sympathetic. By the way, the fans cheered when he came up to bat and booed after the DP.
2006-08-30 10:48:16
92.   Cliff Corcoran
89 And the next guy strikes out on three pitches. Classic.
2006-08-30 10:48:53
93.   pistolpete
88 I didn't specify Mirabelli as a Yankee killer, but he was brought back to aid Wakefield - who most certainly can be considered one.

Just seemed ludicrous to go through all that hubbub for a backup, though.

2006-08-30 10:49:59
94.   rsmith51
3 innings, 1 K, seems about right for Wang.
2006-08-30 10:53:10
95.   Cliff Corcoran
70 Guillen was the 35th runner Posada's thrown out. His career high is 39 from last year. His Caught Stealing percentage is far and above his career average. He's caught 30.3% on his career, this year included. This year alone he's caught 38% of the runners trying to steal on him. The only time he's even been close to that was 1998 when he started just 85 games and caught an even 40% of the runners trying to steal on him.

By way of comparison, Ivan Rodriguez has caught 48.8% of runners in his career.

2006-08-30 11:01:06
96.   Travis
If Boston's really serious about putting together a team of perceived Yankee killers, they can assemble this team of low-cost free agents in the off-season:

C: Sandy Alomar
1B: Eduardo Perez
2B: Adam Kennedy
SS: Alex Cora
3B: Joe Randa
LF: Luis Gonzalez
CF: Dave Roberts
RF: Kevin Millar
DH: Frank Catalanotto
SP: David Wells
RP: Troy Percival

2006-08-30 11:01:13
97.   Sliced Bread
95 Pena partly responsible for that?
2006-08-30 11:02:38
98.   Yankee Fan In Boston
i hadn't thought of that, but it would make perfect sense.
2006-08-30 11:03:36
99.   yanklifer
Boy it would be great if we could get eight innings out of wang today
2006-08-30 11:06:21
100.   Cliff Corcoran
97 The YES announcers have said so before. They say it's the footwork. Jorge's always had the arm (save for times when he's had an injured shoulder).
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-08-30 11:08:46
101.   standuptriple
100 Wait, the YES announcers actually brought something to the table? OK, what were your drinkin' Cliff?
2006-08-30 11:09:34
102.   standuptriple
101 I guess I've been drinkin' too...
2006-08-30 11:10:28
103.   Cliff Corcoran
Rodriguez hit the ball straight down and it dribbled beyond the batting circle fair. Pudge pounced and threw him out by a half step. Same type of swing as the DP, pulling off the ball, so he's hitting down on it and driving them into the ground.
2006-08-30 11:11:18
104.   Cliff Corcoran
Kay is now talking about Posada and Pena again. Says Pena gredits Jorge for being willing and able to learn and adjust this late in his career.
2006-08-30 11:11:57
105.   unpopster
so I see the follwoing on GameDay "Rodriguez grounded out to catcher"


2006-08-30 11:12:01
106.   Cliff Corcoran
103 I should say, he's topping everything, not really hitting down, but hitting the top of the ball, forcing it down.
2006-08-30 11:12:51
107.   Cliff Corcoran
105 see 103

Beautiful swing by Cano, ball tailing outside and he just sat down and extended his arms and served it into right center for a double.

2006-08-30 11:13:47
108.   C2Coke
Is MLB.TV lagging today, or is it just me?
2006-08-30 11:14:17
109.   Cliff Corcoran
Kay saying Joe said he won't play Matsui in the OF this year, he'll be the DH. The logic is he doesn't want him to reinjur himself before having the offseason to finish healing.

Footage of Matsui leaping to shag a fly during BP!!

2006-08-30 11:16:17
110.   Shaun P
109 Does this mean, when Matsui comes back (if?), that Bernie is a full-time bench player? At last?
2006-08-30 11:18:01
111.   weeping for brunnhilde
You guys hear the on-field mic there, for Melky's last pitch?

Guy yelled, "Change-up, Melky, change-up!"

And Melky proceeded to fly out on a 94mph fastball.

You can see the entire upper deck is deserted, so I'm guessing the low attendance enabled us to hear that guy from behind the plate.

Anyway, it ads nice little bit of flavor to the game.

2006-08-30 11:18:12
112.   Jim Dean
104 Between Pena, Bowa, and Kerrigan, the old managers really seem to be helping the team. As you mentioned, Cano is improved all around with Jorge. And the bullpen has been a strength overall. I also think Guidry deserves some credit too. Donnie Baseball, I'm not so sure on.

And Bowa at 3rd has been great - there hasn't been once this season where he sent a guy or didn't and I was annoyed. The only times guys seem to get caught is when they run through the sign (Giambi).

2006-08-30 11:18:28
113.   Yankee Fan In Boston
108 is dragging today for me as well.

i've had to restart it a few times.

glad to hear that it isn't just me.

2006-08-30 11:19:29
114.   weeping for brunnhilde
107 Cano's my main man, along with Melky.

Imagine when they actually mature.

We have a lot to look forward to, God willing they neither of them get dealt.

2006-08-30 11:21:07
115.   Cliff Corcoran
Great play by Cano, charging to snag a sinking hop near his shoetops, then threw across his body waist-high while his momentum carried him toward third base, a strike to Craig Wilson.
2006-08-30 11:21:37
116.   C2Coke
113 Don't ask me why, but I am blaming this on the doubleheader thing...(It's annoying enough that I can't get the audio of my pc to work since I just reformatted the computer last night, with a lagging doesn't get any "better".)
2006-08-30 11:22:05
117.   Cliff Corcoran
Nice back-handed stop by Rodriguez, a laser throw high to Wilson, but Craig makes a nice stretch to keep his foot on the bag.
2006-08-30 11:22:16
118.   Yankee Fan In Boston
how DARE you speak ill of mr. donald arthur baseball?!?

actually, abreu (or "donut", was it?) has credited mattingly with improving his game.

matsui swears by him.

sal fasano says that he even learned a thing or two about moustaches from mr. baseball.

...giambi credits donnie for bringing him back from the dead.

(possibly some 'stache tips to jason, too...)

2006-08-30 11:22:31
119.   standuptriple
Make those worms pay, Wang!
2006-08-30 11:24:02
120.   Cliff Corcoran
112 Mattingly did fix Giambi last year and gets props all the time from his hitters. Cairo credited his career year in 2004 to Donnie. Melky and Cano both seem to be far better hitters than they ever were in the minors, I'm tempted to credit Donnie at least a little for that.
2006-08-30 11:25:23
121.   Cliff Corcoran
Jeter charges and makes a casual side-armed Jeter throw to first, the ball sinks on Wilson and bounces between his legs as he tries to shovel it with two hands.
2006-08-30 11:25:30
122.   weeping for brunnhilde
Is it crazy of me to suggest that Jeter, trying to keep up with Cano and Alex, hotdogged that play just a tad?

He was just a tad loose mechanically, it looked like.

Or am I just imagining things?

2006-08-30 11:26:19
123.   Jim Dean
118 I hear everything you're saying. But honestly the A-Rod slump, to me, also reflects on his hitting coach. It's his job to get through using whatever tools he has available (video, drills, reasoning).
2006-08-30 11:26:57
124.   Sliced Bread
had to check out there... thanks for the Pena-Posada info, Cliff.
2006-08-30 11:27:22
125.   Schteeve
123 So one guys struggles outweigh 6 other guys saying that Donny helped them?
2006-08-30 11:28:17
126.   jkay
Will YES show side by side Jeter's throw vs A-Rod?
2006-08-30 11:29:09
127.   Cliff Corcoran
Wilson just makes up for that play by blasting one just shy of the loge level in left. 1-0 Yanks.
2006-08-30 11:29:36
128.   rbj
Yea! A run. Someone finally scores!
2006-08-30 11:30:11
129.   Jim Dean
120 I know the blasphemy I'm speaking. But Cairo didn't regain that magic this year. Giambi's AVG is down.

Melky And Cano you're right on. One thing I worry about Donnie though is that he preaches plate discipline - good for the young guys, not so good for the vets who should be crushing the one or two pitches they see that are hittable - not waiting on them.

Just my two cents. Please forgive me!

2006-08-30 11:30:32
130.   Yankee Fan In Boston
the rodriguez thing surpasses any coaching issue.

the guy is struggling mentally. it is not just his hitting. he's been looking pretty pedestrian in the field, too.

donnie isn't responsible for rodriguez. alex has something else going on.

(but he taught craig wilson how to hit dingers to left.)


2006-08-30 11:30:35
131.   Sliced Bread
not sure if anybody has remarked on the sparse "make up game" crowd, but the Stadium looks about a third full, or two thirds empty depending on how you look at it.
2006-08-30 11:31:50
132.   Cliff Corcoran
125 Allow me to second that. I think Rodriguez is beyond Donnie's help. He needs a shrink, not a hitting coach.

122 Not crazy, but I don't think accurate either. Jeter likes to make it look easy, Tino, Giambi or Andy likely make that play. Giambi has no range, but he's got soft hands and can scoop 'em.

2006-08-30 11:31:51
133.   Shaun P
C'mon, Cap'n, get on base this time!
2006-08-30 11:32:05
134.   Jim Dean
125 That one guy could make the difference between a short showing in October and a long one. Just seems that the job of the hitting coach is to get through to everyone - one way or another. That A-rod praised Pinella earlier in the season is saying something.
2006-08-30 11:33:44
135.   Cliff Corcoran
129 Check Donnie's career stats. He rarely walked. He was all about using discipline to get pitches to hit, not get ball four.

131 Man, and I'm off today. With foresight I could have gone to this game.

2006-08-30 11:34:07
136.   C2Coke
MLB.TV is driving me nuts. Can't believe I missed all the fun because of the lagging.
2006-08-30 11:34:07
137.   Yankee Fan In Boston
full disclosure: donnie was my childhood idol. he can do no wrong in my eyes.

that said, cairo's performance at the plate should never be a yardstick for anything of consequence. he overacheived for one season.

2006-08-30 11:34:30
138.   Cliff Corcoran
Andrew Miller is warming in the Tiger pen.
2006-08-30 11:36:06
139.   Schteeve
Giambi shouldn't be judged by batting average.
2006-08-30 11:36:08
140.   pistolpete
Man, Abreu is lost today.
2006-08-30 11:36:26
141.   baitshax
129_ Giambi's average has more to do with the shift that he hadn't seen in his MVP years... and he's admitted going to the plate looking to hit it out... his numbers represent this well. Donnie Baseball is a GOD, and with this roster of hitters, batting coaches could be seen as useless... but our man DB has made his influence known by opposing pitcher's pitch counts.
2006-08-30 11:37:07
142.   Cliff Corcoran
Giambi creamed that right into Gomez's glove. Gomez apparently has no arm whatsoever, Damon tags and scores despite Gomez charging hard in right.
2006-08-30 11:38:09
143.   Yankee Fan In Boston
thank you for making my point, mr. giambi.

they keep cutting to shots of donnie, too.

2006-08-30 11:38:12
144.   Cliff Corcoran
Rodriguez got that one good, to the warning track in right center, but Granderson gets to it. Rodriguez slams his helmet.
2006-08-30 11:38:49
145.   Cliff Corcoran
Key info: Singleton says Mattingly shaved his mustache because it was getting too grey.
2006-08-30 11:39:49
146.   Sliced Bread
Good to see A-Rod's effortless power swing again. That ball carried.

Baby steps, but progress.

2006-08-30 11:39:50
147.   rsmith51
144 I would think that would be a step in the right direction. Hits it solid, but at somebody. Of course maybe he was trying to hit a line drive to RF...
2006-08-30 11:40:35
148.   Yankee Fan In Boston
thank you, cliff.
this is EXACTLY the type of information i feared i was missing.
you are a godsend.
2006-08-30 11:40:57
149.   AbbyNormal821
Hey everyone!!! Decided to make a rare afternoon appearance.

Here's to another double-headed sweep today!

2006-08-30 11:41:09
150.   Shaun P
145 Donnie Baseball's mustache was getting gray? Man, I feel old now.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-08-30 11:41:32
151.   Cliff Corcoran
Rodriguez stabs a bullet one-hopper to his left right on the lip of the infield grass.
2006-08-30 11:41:47
152.   AbbyNormal821
I think A-Rod should just punch someone...anyone...just to really vent his frustration.

Is Michael Kay up in the booth today??

2006-08-30 11:42:14
153.   kylepetterson
Rodriguez seems to at least to be seeing the strike zone well.
2006-08-30 11:42:49
154.   rbj
How long before PETA starts protesting Wang, for all the harm he's causing to worms.
2006-08-30 11:43:10
155.   Cliff Corcoran
147 Wasn't really "as somebody," it was a warning track shot, Granderson just got there.

Granderson's shot hugs the line but stays fair, Wilson, with Granderson safely in front of him, picks it up and tags him out.

2006-08-30 11:43:21
156.   Mattpat11
145 Just get him some just for men.
2006-08-30 11:44:38
157.   Cliff Corcoran
Rodriguez was playing Gomez to pull and Gomez hits it just beyond his reach to his right.
2006-08-30 11:45:23
158.   Mattpat11
Kay just restrained himself from saying "Mo down Mo Town"
2006-08-30 11:45:31
159.   JL25and3
Speaking of coaches: Suzyn was just singing the praises of Mazzilli, for the time he's put in teaching Melky how to play the walls.
2006-08-30 11:45:44
160.   Sliced Bread
154 Nice. Anybody keeping Wang grounder count?
2006-08-30 11:46:11
161.   Cliff Corcoran
156 My respect for Mattingly, already tremendous, just increases for the fact that he didn't consider that option.

Young hits it into the ground to the first base side, Wang fields and throws him out.

2006-08-30 11:46:21
162.   pistolpete
A beautiful sight, courtesy of Yahoo:

Last Play: D. Young grounded out to pitcher


2006-08-30 11:46:42
163.   C2Coke
160 10.
2006-08-30 11:47:10
164.   Bama Yankee
151 New bigger glove helped on that one...
157 Glove not big enough on that one...

Seriously, his D seems to have improved with that new glove, maybe he needs to try a new bat ;)

2006-08-30 11:47:12
165.   Sliced Bread
Thanks, C2Coke
2006-08-30 11:47:19
166.   mehmattski
144 Thanks for the updates, I'm stuck here at work, and it's too risky for (at least posting here makes it look like I'm working). I'm glad A-Rod showed some emotion, maybe some people will lay off after that. I'm so frustrated I'm not watching the game, curse the rain last night!
2006-08-30 11:47:37
167.   Cliff Corcoran
160 10 grounders, 5 flies, 2 Ks, 1 CS.
2006-08-30 11:48:42
168.   Jim Dean
135 Fun discussion. It's a different game these days. They're first in OBP but fifth in AVG. That difference says something - what I'm not exactly sure!

Honestly the praise that A-Rod gave Pinella says a lot to me. I wonder if Donnie works with him or if A-Rod is doing most of his own work.

2006-08-30 11:48:42
169.   Cliff Corcoran
166 Oh, he was slamming everything in Anaheim. Didn't help, though I haven't heard many boos since the DP. Not that there's anyone there.
2006-08-30 11:49:40
170.   kylepetterson
164 He used Cano's on Saturday.
2006-08-30 11:50:28
171.   Sliced Bread
167 Thanks.

Have the fans at the Stadium been keeping track of Wang's grounders a la "K" cards?

A worm poster for each one would be sweet.

2006-08-30 11:50:38
172.   yanklifer
cano looked like kenny lofton on that swing
2006-08-30 11:51:06
173.   Cliff Corcoran
168 They say part of the problem is he works too much.

Cano with a broken bat (sounded like it at least) dribbler past the pitcher, Neifi! can't get it to first in time, infield single.

Melky then hits one to Neifi!, who shovels to Guillen, it hits the webbing of his glove, but he reaches in below the ball and it pops out, everyone safe.

2006-08-30 11:53:22
174.   Cliff Corcoran
Another Singleton gem: Leyland and Bobby Cox are the only managers who still wear baseball spikes rather than regular sneakers.

Seriously, I love Ken Singleton.

2006-08-30 11:53:53
175.   rbj
I've heard/read about players crediting their dads or h.s. coaches giving them a tip to break out of a slump. Sometimes, just hearing the same thing in a different way can help.
2006-08-30 11:54:07
176.   Sliced Bread
To me, Damon gets a free pass for the week after his "we have to start abusing people" quote.
2006-08-30 11:54:16
177.   Shaun P
I work with a guy who's a dead ringer for Craig Wilson's gameday picture.

I now wonder if my co-worker grew a mullet, would he look like Craig Wilson in his Pirates days.

Robertson is not pitching poorly.

2006-08-30 11:55:10
178.   rbj
171 Worms for g.o.s, I like.
2006-08-30 11:56:04
179.   Yankee Fan In Boston
i didn't see that. i've never disliked damon, but i have often disliked his quotes.

...that one is a beauty, however.

2006-08-30 11:56:55
180.   Schteeve
175 I think Giambi credits his dad with helping him work through his slump last year.
2006-08-30 11:57:51
181.   pistolpete
171 That's hilarious. I would but I never seem to get seats along a railing...
2006-08-30 11:58:02
182.   The Giambino
Wang is cruising! The guy is simply phenomenal.
2006-08-30 11:58:03
183.   Cliff Corcoran
Great clip of Leyland laying down the law after a los back on April 17, saying his team didn't really care if it won or lost, that they were stuck in the losing mentality of the previous years and it was unacceptable. Badass.
2006-08-30 11:59:25
184.   The Giambino
Two outs.
2006-08-30 11:59:46
185.   Schteeve
Sliced, do you have a link to the damon quote? I haven't seen it.
2006-08-30 11:59:46
186.   yankee fan in Hollywood
He truly is Wang-derfull!!!!
2006-08-30 12:00:11
187.   standuptriple
182 When Wang's balls are down he's devastating.
2006-08-30 12:00:29
188.   RIYank
182 He is, and there's a punch-out!
2006-08-30 12:01:11
189.   yankee fan in Hollywood
With that strikeout he saved a couple worms' lives...
2006-08-30 12:01:16
190.   The Giambino
Pudge strikes out on three pitches!!
2006-08-30 12:01:20
191.   Cliff Corcoran
Wang, seven shutout innings, 97 pitches. One more, or be extra careful? 2-0 lead ain't much. Heart of the order due up. Can we get some insurance runs for the bullpen, pleases?
2006-08-30 12:01:34
192.   C2Coke
182 He is using a bit more pitches than his super sharp days though. Then again, he suddenly seems to have a few strikeouts per game. Do we see Proctor or Farnsworth next?
2006-08-30 12:01:54
193.   AbbyNormal821
187..uh, 'scuse me???


2006-08-30 12:03:21
194.   Javi Javi
191 Bring him in with Farnsworth/proctor warming and keep him on a tight leash.
2006-08-30 12:03:29
195.   C2Coke
191 And it's against the Tigers. Simply awesome.
2006-08-30 12:03:34
196.   JL25and3
174 That's a tremendous piece of info. And I'll bet singleton didn't draw attention to himself in the process, the way McCarver (or Kaat, or a lot of other guys) would. I'm with you, I love him.
2006-08-30 12:04:19
197.   pistolpete
192 Neither - this is a game we have to have. Leave Wang in as long as he's getting guys out - hopefully that's 8 full, and bring in Mo for the 3 out save.

Pen will be rested for Wright's start in Game 2.

2006-08-30 12:04:26
198.   standuptriple
I think Joe trots him out there in the 8th. He's dealing and has the bottom 1/3 (Neifi!).
2006-08-30 12:04:38
199.   yanklifer
I think the only reason to take him out would be to rest him. I think he is a better option than anyone in the pen except Mo and we have Writght going tonight so we will need all hands on deck.
2006-08-30 12:04:39
200.   Cliff Corcoran
In his last start against the Yanks, Robertson allowed just two runs through six innings, then gave up two runs in each of the next two innings.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2006-08-30 12:04:48
201.   JL25and3
191 Take him out. Cliff, with your frequent observations about his innings, I'd figure you'd want him out. We need him in October.
2006-08-30 12:05:35
202.   RIYank
It would be nice to relieve him. We'll be needing him in October.
But I say let him start the eighth.

But what I really say is: get some runs and make it all academic.

2006-08-30 12:05:39
203.   Jim Dean
171 Great idea on the worms. I'm catching three of the four games in Baltimore and have front row upper-deck seats above third base ($20 each!). If Wang pitches, I'm posting worms!
2006-08-30 12:05:51
204.   JL25and3
197 Why is this game one we particularly need to have? We'd like it, but it's not worth pushing Wang for.
2006-08-30 12:05:57
205.   yankee fan in Hollywood
Was it Farnsworth who blew the save when we were closed to sweeping the Tigers earlier this year ???
2006-08-30 12:07:00
206.   yanklifer
nice bunt!
2006-08-30 12:07:38
207.   Cliff Corcoran
For the record, earlier in the year I wouldn't even think of taking Wang out of this game. Today I have to be careful of his arm, but if they Yanks don't score here (slow roler to second, Jeter beats it out) I have to hope he can get the bottom of the order out efficiently and I go straight to Mo if he can't.

Abreu bunts. Bad move, but he's looked lost against the lefty Robertson, who has walked just one man, so maybe it's okay.

2006-08-30 12:07:57
208.   Shaun P
If Wang pitches like this down the stretch, keeps his ERA in the mid-3's, and wins 20 (or more) games, does he win the Cy Young?

Mind you, I'm not saying he should, but certainly the voters tend to be swooned by wins (see Bartolo Colon's inexplicable Cy win over Santana last year).

191 I like Javi's idea - bring him in, but on a short leash.

2006-08-30 12:08:37
209.   kylepetterson
206 Thanks, I've been working out.
2006-08-30 12:09:22
210.   The Giambino
Is there a place on web that transmits the radio broadcast from the game?
2006-08-30 12:09:41
211.   Javi Javi
204 I think it's pretty important to beat the tiggers--gives us a better chance of getting home field during the playoffs.
2006-08-30 12:10:08
212.   Zack
It looks like he will stay in, but I would say pull him. Wang seems to have problems in these situations...

Not sure Wang can or should beat out Halladay or Santana...

2006-08-30 12:10:36
213.   Cliff Corcoran
Proctor's up in the pen.
2006-08-30 12:11:17
214.   Zack
And just as I say that EDSP starts to warm...I assume Joe wants to bring him in both games again, his dream :)
2006-08-30 12:11:25
215.   Sliced Bread
The Damon quote:

or just do a google "news" search, and type in - Damon abusing people.

2006-08-30 12:11:35
216.   RIYank
You always want to 'spend' a little extra to win close games, anyway. The division race isn't literally over, after all.
2006-08-30 12:11:39
217.   yankee fan in Hollywood
Arod has a good average when facing a pitcher the 3rd time.
2006-08-30 12:11:46
218.   standuptriple
I think it's about time to give Robertson his due. Scattering 10 hits to this lineup and still keeping it close is an achievement in itself.
I'd just love to see it busted open right here though.
2006-08-30 12:12:17
219.   The Giambino
Pull Wang. NOW. Remember Washington?
2006-08-30 12:12:29
220.   Schteeve
GameCast now has no photo for A-Rod. Has it really gotten that bad?
2006-08-30 12:12:53
221.   Cliff Corcoran
Rodriguez looks in control walking on close pitches all just inside, last one skips past Pudge, Jeter to third. Miller still warming.
2006-08-30 12:13:18
222.   RIYank
Jorgie has to be Robertson's last batter.
2006-08-30 12:13:25
223.   Yankee Fan In Boston
210 streams audio... for a price.
2006-08-30 12:13:26
224.   Javi Javi
214EDSP is particularly good in back to back, same-day appearances, so I guess it makes sense.
2006-08-30 12:13:29
225.   Zack
Wow, Miller looks to be about 12...
2006-08-30 12:13:49
226.   standuptriple
I'd pull Wang if one guy gets on base, mainly because he seems to dislike the stretch an awful lot. If not, let him roll.
2006-08-30 12:14:22
227.   Cliff Corcoran
219 What does that have to do with anything? He also pitched a complete game shutout more recently than that.

Robertson hits Posada to load 'em up on two outs. Got him on the side just under the elbow.

2006-08-30 12:14:33
228.   RIYank
Ooh, maybe not? Do you pull Robertson?
Cano's a lefty, but hitting Nate well.
2006-08-30 12:14:44
229.   Zack
I love the requisite "hit by pitch boo" from the fans...
2006-08-30 12:15:24
230.   rbj
Nate looks* like he's losing it

*at least as far as gamechannel is "showing"

2006-08-30 12:15:44
231.   Cliff Corcoran
Cano's .171 career average with the bases loaded just went down.
2006-08-30 12:15:52
232.   RIYank
Robertson escapes again.
This game could so easily have been a blow-out by this point.
2006-08-30 12:16:13
233.   standuptriple
Give me some (more) fantasy points Robbie!
2006-08-30 12:16:56
234.   Cliff Corcoran
230 He definitley tired in that inning, but Jeter's shot was a slow roller infield hit and the pitches to Rodriguez were close but just missed.
2006-08-30 12:16:58
235.   Sliced Bread
"We know there's another month left in the regular season, but I think we're the best team out there," Johnny Damon said. "We have to show it day in and day out. We need to go for the jugular and start abusing people."
2006-08-30 12:17:07
236.   standuptriple
How many pitches did Cano see?
2006-08-30 12:17:21
237.   pistolpete
204 Because it's a doubleheader - we still have another game to go. What happens if you use Farnsworth or Proctor in this game and they blow it? Now Farnsworth is useless for tonight.

If there were no Game 2, I'd have taken out Wang after 7. But remember kids- Wright in Game 2.

2006-08-30 12:17:54
238.   jkay
236 1
2006-08-30 12:18:04
239.   Cliff Corcoran
Wang back on the hill.
2006-08-30 12:18:21
240.   Cliff Corcoran
One pitch, one groundball out.
2006-08-30 12:18:28
241.   Javi Javi
266 "I'd pull Wang. . ." I know it is not very mature, but that is funny.
2006-08-30 12:18:53
242.   Sliced Bread
Hang another worm at the ol Stadium!
2006-08-30 12:19:14
243.   Javi Javi
241 sorry, I meant 226 as a reference
2006-08-30 12:19:31
244.   pistolpete
240 He heard you Cliff - he's trying to save his arm. ;)
2006-08-30 12:20:09
245.   C2Coke
227 Hey, maybe the CG you mentioned just brought some good luck. Looks like Joe and Cliff are thinking the same thing, if Wang can hold it, go straight to Mo.
2006-08-30 12:20:25
246.   Cliff Corcoran
Five pitch walk, some close pitches there, I give hime one more batter.
2006-08-30 12:20:28
247.   standuptriple
241 You can see the future? Does Wang throw a CG shutout?
238, 239 I was afraid of that. Robertson was on the ropes RC! Patience is a virtue.
2006-08-30 12:20:34
248.   Zack
Well that will prob. be it for Wanger, knowing Joe
2006-08-30 12:21:04
249.   Zack
And I am wrong, lets go DP!
2006-08-30 12:21:12
250.   The Giambino
227 Yes, I know. But he gave up that big, fat homerun to Zimmerman when it was obvious to everybody that he was flat.

Over 100 pitches and just a two-run lead. Pull the guy.

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2006-08-30 12:21:19
251.   Cliff Corcoran
245 Not really, Mo's still got his pull over on. He's not throwing yet.
2006-08-30 12:21:41
252.   standuptriple
Walking Perez is a sign he's done.
2006-08-30 12:21:45
253.   mehmattski
Ummm... did he just walk Neifi!?!? Does that put his OBP over .300? I know he's pitching a great game, but that might be an excellent sign he's done...
2006-08-30 12:22:22
254.   Cliff Corcoran
Fly ball out after Jorge saved a wild pitch with a backhand. I'd pull him, he's done.
2006-08-30 12:22:46
255.   Zack
Looked like a fat pitch there to hit, Inge missed it...
2006-08-30 12:22:53
256.   C2Coke
245 Even though there was that typo in there, but maybe it was meant to be...
2006-08-30 12:23:27
257.   The Giambino
One more, baby...
2006-08-30 12:23:43
258.   mehmattski
Glad to see Damon is still awake out there. In little league I would be picking blades of grass by now...
2006-08-30 12:23:51
259.   Cliff Corcoran
Double for Granderson, Joe waits one batter too long. Proctor coming in with the tying run on second.
2006-08-30 12:23:57
260.   RIYank
SHouldn't have let him pitch to Granderson. Oh well.
2006-08-30 12:24:07
261.   Zack
Def left in one batter too long...come on EDSP!
2006-08-30 12:24:10
262.   C2Coke he's done. Excellent work today, Wang.
2006-08-30 12:24:18
263.   The Giambino
No out recorded... DAMNIT.
2006-08-30 12:24:33
264.   Yankee Fan In Boston
7 2/3 innings of fantastic pitching. you couldn't ask for more than that.
2006-08-30 12:24:50
265.   RIYank
Hm, I'd go with Mo here. But what do I know.
2006-08-30 12:24:50
266.   Sliced Bread
Wang gets a BIG ovation. New York loves Wang!
2006-08-30 12:25:13
267.   sabernar
Why is Inge batting behind Neifi?!?!
2006-08-30 12:25:13
268.   standuptriple
Oh Joe. Please don't do that to our future.
2006-08-30 12:25:24
269.   C2Coke
No...apparently I was thinking like Joe. Re: 192. Nope, no Mo yet.
2006-08-30 12:25:30
270.   pistolpete
I thought sinker ball pitchers were more effective when they got tired...the ball's supposed to drop even more, isn't it?
2006-08-30 12:25:56
271.   The Giambino
I love you, Wang.
2006-08-30 12:26:00
272.   pistolpete
Who's in?
2006-08-30 12:26:01
273.   Sliced Bread
265 Yeah, this situation calls for Mo.
2006-08-30 12:26:02
274.   Sandman42
264 We'll see if those bequeathed runners score.

I don't understand. Where is Mo?

2006-08-30 12:26:17
275.   C2Coke
263 There are 2 outs.
2006-08-30 12:26:20
276.   Sliced Bread
but it's Proctor
2006-08-30 12:27:03
277.   RIYank
It's OPSP!


2006-08-30 12:27:13
278.   Sliced Bread
nice job, Proctor. See you back on the mound tonight.
2006-08-30 12:27:16
279.   The Giambino
2006-08-30 12:27:33
280.   The Giambino
2006-08-30 12:27:38
281.   C2Coke
270 When he's tired from the game, yes. When he may be tired from the season, no.
2006-08-30 12:27:38
282.   Zack
Thank Goodness for those over-eager Tigers...That must be the shortest EDSP outing ever!
2006-08-30 12:27:48
283.   Javi Javi
One pitch Proctor!
2006-08-30 12:27:58
284.   Cliff Corcoran
270 They're better if they're not too fresh and strong, but that's not tired, no one pitches better tired. Kaat said Wang's velocity was down 3-4 MPH in that inning.

One pitch, third out. Fwew.

2006-08-30 12:28:14
285.   rbj
2006-08-30 12:28:32
286.   Zack
Heck, for that, I say he HAS to come in for the second game, just to get his true single game allotment
2006-08-30 12:28:32
287.   C2Coke
278 That is funny.
2006-08-30 12:29:22
288.   JL25and3
270 That's usually true. I heard it about Mel Stottlemyre all the time when I was a kid - if he was going to run into trouble, it would be in the first inning.

The one reason I think Wang might be different is that he throws an exceptionally hard sinker. If he gets tired, I think it's less effective.

2006-08-30 12:29:30
289.   Sandman42
Supposedly guys like Quantrill pitch better tired. But there's a difference between tired and dead.
2006-08-30 12:29:45
290.   Cliff Corcoran
Andrew Miller's major league debut.
2006-08-30 12:30:29
291.   JL25and3
286 This one doeesn't even count. He should have to pitch twice tonight.
2006-08-30 12:30:39
292.   C2Coke
282 Joe may hear you, and use him again in the 9th...
2006-08-30 12:30:52
293.   Javi Javi
290 Wow. I can't believe they are doing that. Think about how careful the Yanks are with Hughes.
2006-08-30 12:31:08
294.   pistolpete
Good sequence by Torre - with a little luck, that is. Better stretching out Wang now (heh) and building up that division lead so he can rest him down the line.

That inning couldn't have worked out better if you scripted it.

2006-08-30 12:31:24
295.   Bob Timmermann
Miller's contract required him to be brought up to the majors this year.
2006-08-30 12:31:28
296.   Cliff Corcoran
Miller's a tall skinny dude with a baggy uniform, almost looks like his uni's on a hanger and he has no body. He's coming mid-90s with the heater.
2006-08-30 12:32:04
297.   yankee fan in Hollywood
280 Love it !!!
2006-08-30 12:32:26
298.   Cliff Corcoran
Hit Wilson right above the knee with a curve.
2006-08-30 12:32:37
299.   Javi Javi
295 Still, a 2 run game on the road at Yankee stadium--that's the major majors.
2006-08-30 12:33:59
300.   Cliff Corcoran
18,167 in attendance per the turnstiles.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2006-08-30 12:34:19
301.   standuptriple
Going from Wang to the Proctolgist doesn't sound pelasant, but I liked the results. Please stop judging me.
2006-08-30 12:34:43
302.   C2Coke
299 And in the 8th inning...Gotta develop that heart strong when he's still young.
2006-08-30 12:36:23
303.   Cliff Corcoran
Miller's a head taller than all of his infielders. He's listed at 6'6" 210. He looks 6'7" 180.
2006-08-30 12:36:26
304.   Sliced Bread
300 So there should still be a few Carl Pavano Precious Moments souvenir figurines available for the night crowd. They'll be so pleased!
2006-08-30 12:37:05
305.   RIYank
Mo time.
2006-08-30 12:37:07
306.   Cliff Corcoran
Mo comin' in.
2006-08-30 12:37:47
307.   Shaun P
290 How's the dude look?
2006-08-30 12:38:20
308.   rbj
295 That's something I don't understand. Does that mean that his free agency clock starts ticking now?
2006-08-30 12:38:26
309.   C2Coke
303 He looks like 2/3 of Cano's size. Nice debut, the kid goes off with big smiles.

Enters the Sandman!

2006-08-30 12:39:06
310.   standuptriple
Fall is right around the corner. Mo, would you please get us some firewood from Le Tigres?
2006-08-30 12:39:14
311.   mehmattski
Say your prayers little one, and don't forget my son, to include everyone. I tuck you in, warm within, keep you free from sin... till the Sandman he comes...
2006-08-30 12:39:48
312.   Bob Timmermann

Indeed the clock is ticking....

2006-08-30 12:39:56
313.   The Giambino
Sandman on the mound.
2006-08-30 12:40:22
314.   RIYank
There's one.
Mo-ing down Mo-Town.
2006-08-30 12:40:24
315.   C2Coke
The kid is still smiling...has he looked at the scoreboard yet?
2006-08-30 12:40:26
316.   C2Coke
The kid is still smiling...has he looked at the scoreboard yet?
2006-08-30 12:40:36
317.   Cliff Corcoran
Great footage of the Tiger pitching coach checking Miller's heart rate. Incidentally, the same Chuck Hernandez from Mystery Photo #8 over on Humbug.
2006-08-30 12:41:18
318.   RIYank
And there's two.
2006-08-30 12:41:29
319.   Sliced Bread
311 It would be worth the price of season tickets to hear Bob Sheppard recite a few lines of that.
2006-08-30 12:41:46
320.   The Giambino
Sandman is on fire!!
2006-08-30 12:41:50
321.   C2Coke
There's 2.
2006-08-30 12:42:26
322.   Travis
Coco Crisp was scratched today with a strained left shoulder. That means the Sox have a ONE man bench: Javy Lopez.
2006-08-30 12:42:27
323.   Cliff Corcoran
316 C'mon, you make your major league debut, even if you give up the game winning hit, you're freaking thrilled. Pitching a scoreless inning late in a close game your team is losing? That's fatastic!
2006-08-30 12:42:52
324.   Javi Javi
Switch hitter batting righty against Mo. Love that cutter
2006-08-30 12:44:22
325.   Cliff Corcoran
Pudge up as the tying run.
2006-08-30 12:44:32
326.   The Giambino
2006-08-30 12:45:02
327.   The Giambino
Anybody but Pudge that stupid jerkoff.
2006-08-30 12:45:14
328.   rbj
312 Thanks. I hate those clauses. Snot nosed kids who haven't spent any time in the pros, dictating when they get called up. Earn your up.
2006-08-30 12:45:27
329.   Sliced Bread
Nighty night, Pudge. Sweet love of Mo! Eight games up!
Let's take two!
2006-08-30 12:45:27
330.   RIYank
Tell you what, a Chien-Ming Wang start with a rested Rivera is money in the bank.
2006-08-30 12:45:34
331.   Chyll Will
Wowzers, that was quick and painless (!)
2006-08-30 12:45:44
332.   C2Coke
And there's Cy Wang's #16 with no runs from the Tigers. And of course, Mo rocks!
2006-08-30 12:45:48
333.   Yankee Fan In Boston
m to the o.
2006-08-30 12:46:18
334.   Cliff Corcoran
Beautiful game. Two great pitching performances, nice close win, minimal bullpen useage and the MLB debut of a possible future star. Good stuff.
2006-08-30 12:46:39
335.   The Giambino
YES!!! Take care, guys...
2006-08-30 12:46:41
336.   Sliced Bread
Cy Ming Young.
2006-08-30 12:46:45
337.   Schteeve
Get it on! Chien Ming Wang! Bang a gong!
2006-08-30 12:47:03
338.   Zack
Love the closing shot of Giambi's ever thickening 'stache. He now looks like a trucker...
2006-08-30 12:47:20
339.   C2Coke
Ok...Giambi really looks like a small town cop.
2006-08-30 12:47:33
340.   Javi Javi
A three hit shutout through 7 2/3,!! Cy Wang indeed.
2006-08-30 12:47:51
341.   rbj
322 Javy is the bench?! Isn't that more like a no man bench? Apparently the pitchers hate him, as they can't seem to get on the same page.
2006-08-30 12:48:37
342.   Javi Javi
Ok, time to work. See ya'll tonight.
2006-08-30 12:48:56
343.   DrManhattan
Not bad - Proctor and Mo should be available in a few hours.
So, are we reconvening here in a few hours or are you opening up a new thread?
P.S. Let's go Oakland! Maybe we can be 9 up by 11 PM.
2006-08-30 12:49:02
344.   C2Coke
323 Yea, you are right. Miller deserves to be thrilled, looks like we will be seeing a lot more of him from now on.
2006-08-30 12:49:38
345.   Yankee Fan In Boston
lopez was actually turning to the bench for pitch selection in his last days in baltimore.

he just hasn't had it working.

and it is REALLY a shame.


2006-08-30 12:51:00
346.   Shaun P
For those of us at work, I'm sure our respective bosses really appreciate how quickly this game has gone by! ;)

Nice win, and hopefully tonight is a blowout so Mo doesn't have to pitch again.

2006-08-30 12:51:21
347.   C2Coke
See you all in a few hours.
2006-08-30 12:51:50
348.   Chyll Will
339 Giambi to Miller (De Niro-ish) "You had your chance, and you BLEWWeettt!!!"
2006-08-30 12:52:18
349.   pistolpete
334 My thoughts exactly. Only way it could have been better was for Wang to go a full 8.

Man, is this thread full of unintentional phallic references or WHAT?

2006-08-30 12:55:36
350.   Cliff Corcoran
349 Considering the guy's name is pronounced "Wong," I'd say no.

337 Is excellent, however.

Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2006-08-30 12:55:58
351.   Sliced Bread
346 My boss just inquired about all the worms hanging up in my cubicle.
I said "You really don't want me to explain. I'll just take them down now."
2006-08-30 13:00:34
352.   kylepetterson
346 I am the boss.
2006-08-30 13:01:00
353.   Shaun P
351 Brilliant!

I think I might have to print out some pictures of worms myself. Perhaps I can find a dead worm picture . . .

2006-08-30 13:02:22
354.   unpopster
This is the kind of game that puts the word ELITE in front of the word pitcher when referring to Wang.

For the second straight doubleheader, wang pitches a good first game to take all the pressure off of the team for the second one. These type of wins are just as important as the "stopper" wins (game pitched after a loss).

Guys, who here would have ever thought that Chien Ming wang would be the best homegrown pitcher for the Yanks since a certain lefty named Pettitte? wow!

2006-08-30 13:03:41
355.   David
Abreau's hitting seems to have come down to earth, after a phenomenal start with the Yanks. Have the AL pitchers figured out how to pitcg to him?
2006-08-30 13:03:54
356.   standuptriple
349 Freud would say that they are not unintentional.
2006-08-30 13:04:29
357.   pistolpete
350 Whatever, Captain Literal.
2006-08-30 13:07:14
358.   mehmattski
352 Bruce, is that you? Or is it George?
2006-08-30 13:09:37
359.   RIYank
Bobby Kielty goes yard against Schilling. 1-1 game.
2006-08-30 13:09:45
360.   Sliced Bread
Wang starts Game 1 ALDS, correct? Especially if it's at home.
2006-08-30 13:10:27
361.   Schteeve
360 Nope, he's in the Pettitte Game 2 stopper role.
2006-08-30 13:11:29
362.   Sliced Bread
355 Probably just tired. Guiel would get the start tonight if it was my call. DH Giambi, Wilson back at first.
2006-08-30 13:12:21
363.   JL25and3
355 He wasn't going to keep hitting .400. Donuts or no, he's allowed to have the occasional oh-fer
2006-08-30 13:13:13
364.   Sliced Bread
361 Good call. I wouldn't mind him Game 1 though.
2006-08-30 13:16:40
365.   mickey1956
I was just looking over the schedule and standings and I couldn't believe how bad the National League is this year. If Boston was in the NL they would have the second best record behind the Mets. That is unreal. The ALCS will be the real world series this year.
2006-08-30 13:17:14
366.   Jim Dean
Anyone have ESPN insider and know what Neyer is saying about Wang?
2006-08-30 13:18:34
367.   pistolpete
362 They just had two days off - maybe Robertson just had him fooled.
2006-08-30 13:18:55
368.   RIYank
Another dinger off Schilling.
Both solos, though. 2-1 in the third.
2006-08-30 13:21:33
369.   jkay
366 Neyer says Wang's k/9 is too low and he projects to be a Randy Jones.

"Maybe there's something different about Wang, or maybe there's something different about the game today. But if he builds a long and productive career on three strikeouts every nine innings, he'll be the first of his kind that most of us have ever seen."

2006-08-30 13:25:31
370.   JL25and3
369 That's always been my main concern with him. Pitchers with strikeout rates that low almost never go on to have long careers.
2006-08-30 13:28:34
371.   Shaun P
366 Short summary: Wang seems to be like Aaron Cook. When a sinkerball pitcher has a year in which he win lots of games with a good ERA and only a handfull of strikeouts, in the future those guys tend not to pitch well. At least over the course of the last 30+ years or so. In general, the sinkerballers who have long term success are the ones who strike guys out as well as get many groundball outs.

I wish Neyer had included team/pitcher defensive efficiencies in his study (ie, the ratio of balls in play the defense turns into outs). You'd expect a correlation between great defense and an excellent year by a sinkerball pitcher by a sinkerball who doesn't get lots of Ks - so did a change in defense actually help/hurt those guys? That's what I'd like to know.

Notice that the Yanks' team defensive efficiency this year is fantastic (.704, tied for 2nd in AL with White Sox).

2006-08-30 13:28:51
372.   Sliced Bread
369, 370

I don't remember where, but I once heard somebody on the Yanks quoted as saying Wang knows he could probably strike out more hitters with a different approach, but he likes to induce the grounders because he throws fewer pitches.

Guy throws mid-90's, no reason he can't adjust his game to get more k's. But I wouldn't do it to satisfy the Neyers of the world.

2006-08-30 13:31:17
373.   RIYank
Three singles and a walk, Schilling strikes out Kielty with the bases loaded and the Sox stay close. 3-1 after three.
2006-08-30 13:32:29
374.   Jim Dean
369 370 It seems like convoluted logic.

1) Wang doesn't strike out people.
2) Pitches that don't stike out people don't do very well.
3) Wang won't do very well.

He does throw 95 mph. Hitters might just know - either swing and hit it into the ground or take the pitches and strike out.

That's the only thing I can imagine is that he loses his control AND folks stop swinging. But there's no evidence either way.

It will be fun to see - is he unique or do his rates change?

2006-08-30 13:33:45
375.   Sliced Bread
372 That's not a knock against Neyer. I just think Wang should stick to his game, and look at the bigger picture in the off season, and then, tinker with his game to increase the K's.
2006-08-30 13:34:41
376.   Jim Dean
372 That seems exactly right. He's 26 throwing 95. There's no reason he can't change his approach and the more frequent use of his slider against the Sux seems to be one example of that being possible.
2006-08-30 13:35:13
377.   jkay
Oakland 3, Sox 1
2006-08-30 13:36:53
378.   Jim Dean
374 Wow terrible spelling there by me - "Pitchers that don't strike out..."
2006-08-30 13:37:01
379.   Schteeve
I think Neyer should write a column titled "I don't know as much as I like to make you think I do."
2006-08-30 13:37:55
380.   pistolpete
373 They stay close, but does it really matter with this lineup? Zito might actually do well against the Sox for a change.
2006-08-30 13:38:29
381.   Shaun P
372 Efficiency is good, but strikeouts are better, especially for groundball pitchers, who (as I said before) tend to rely on their defense a lot.

Look at what happened to Derek Lowe when the defense behind him went south:

2002: 2.58 ERA, Team Def Eff .713, tied for 3rd in AL
2003: 4.47 ERA, Team Def Eff .694, tied for 10th in AL

And Lowe struck out over 5 per 9 both years! Imagine if he struck out fewer guys.

Don't mess with success and all that, but I'd love to see Wang get his K rate up to 6 per 9 while still getting tons of groundouts. He'd be truly unstoppable.

2006-08-30 13:39:30
382.   Max
BTW, for those hanging around the computer looking for distractions, you could do worse than to follow the Sox game with the Globe's Gordon Edes (generally one of the fairer and less histrionic writers covering the Red Sox). He posts his thoughts during the game (every five to ten minutes or so), and clearly has to have a wry sense of humor with the lineup the Red Sox have on the field:

He says the Sox have been talking to the Dodgers about Boomer, but that the Cards might have strong interest as well.

2006-08-30 13:39:42
383.   Ron Burgundy
Great performance by Wangster there.

And the Sawx only decent pitcher in Shelling is losing 3-1. His ERA now up over 4.00. Is he still a Cy Young candidate ESPN?

2006-08-30 13:41:58
384.   Shaun P
Oh, Frank Thomas, if only you were wearing pinstripes.

Of course, then Matsui wouldn't have a place to DH when he returns!

2006-08-30 13:54:13
385.   Jersey
Nick Swisher delivers, now 4-1 Oakland in the 5th.

I've always liked Barry Zito, don't know why. I think it's the curve.

2006-08-30 13:57:24
386.   Shaun P
BTW, if I did the math right, Neyer (and Bill James)'s Cy Young predictor (leaving out the closers) would read, after Wang's performance today:

1. Santana, 138.1*
2. Halladay, 137.5*
3. Wang, 134.6*

(*I'm presuming the Yanks win the East, giving Wang a 12 point boost, while the Twins don't win the Central - probably a safe assumption. If the Twins were to win the Central, Santana's score would go up 12 points.)

Depending on what happens down the stretch, Cy Mieng Wang might happen after all.

2006-08-30 14:00:48
387.   3rd gen yankee fan
365 Ya know, it's going to be interesting. My bf thinks that the AL is going to blow its energy beating each other up, allowing an NL win. That would be sick.
2006-08-30 14:05:24
388.   JL25and3
375 It's not really a question of convoluted logic, because I'm stopping short of your syllogism's conclusion. I'm not saying Wang won't do well; he might, and I certainly hope he does.

But at the same time, I wouldn't be shocked if it turns out that he can't keep this up. I think he has very little leeway - he's got to continue to be this good, or the wheels might come off in a hurry. Balls in play become hits, so if Wang loses just a little, or batters learn to read his pitches, or whatever, they become lots of hits.

As I said, I hope I'm wrong. If Wang is an exception, I'll be thrilled.

2006-08-30 14:08:47
389.   mickey1956
387 The Mets are a good team. If healthy they'll probably reach the world series. No other NL team looks like they have much of a chance.
2006-08-30 14:10:37
390.   Simone
A good pitching performance, I like.

I like Wang, but I think that Neyer is right. It is my preference that the Yankees trade Wang for prospects while his value and sign Zito the only halfway decent AL pitcher on the market this off season.

2006-08-30 14:12:20
391.   Simone
384 So true. I wanted the Yankees to sign Frank Thomas in the off season, but it didn't happen. That man will be raking until his last at bat in MLB.
2006-08-30 14:20:31
392.   Schteeve
I think trading Wang would be a really bad idea unless you got ridiculous bankable value for him. We are assuming that Wang's K rate will stay where it is, and I don't think that's a safe assumption at this point.

We are also pretending that all contact is the same, all balls in play are the same, and they aren't.

I do think Wang has been lucky this year on BABIP but I also think he is an outlier because of the quality of his sinker.

2006-08-30 14:24:33
393.   Schteeve
And because he doesn't give up home runs.
2006-08-30 14:32:10
394.   Schteeve
SOrry to keep harping on this but the idea of trading Wang really doesn't sit well with me. His BABIP this year is .275 and I think league average is somewhere around .290, so while he's been 'lucky' he hasn't been ObiShawn lucky, (.240 BABIP with the Yankees in 2005.)
2006-08-30 14:46:42
395.   JL25and3
It's not that all contact is the same. Wang doesn't give up homers, and that's good. And you're right, his BABIP is very good but not outrageously low. But the thing to remember about it is that he puts a lot of balls in play. So if his BABIP is a little above average rather than a little below, that's a whole lot more hits.

I'm not suggesting trading Wang (and I'm not all that keen on signing Zito). I'd be surprised if Wang is a #1 or #2 pitcher for a lot of years; but even a moderate career as a middle-of-the-rotation guy is pretty damn valuable.

2006-08-30 14:48:04
396.   Shaun P
393 Except that most extreme groundball pitchers don't give up home runs - usually because of the high quality of their sinker!

I also don't think Wang is particularly lucky with his BABIP this year - its .291 vs AL average of .305. If anything, last year he was somewhat lucky (.270 vs AL average of .296).

All that said, I don't think its worth trading Wang now, because he could up his K-rate, because he's the Yanks' youngest established starter, and because he's so darn cheap for the next couple years.

391 The Big Hurt is one of the few current players who I really, really, really want to see get inducted into the HoF in person. Mo is another.

2006-08-30 14:52:06
397.   Shaun P
394 Clearly we're getting our data on Wang from different sources! I'm using Prospectus, which, surprisingly enough, has ObiShawn's BABIP at .240 in 2005.

I also wonder how Kevin Brown would have done with this year's defense behind him. Not that I'd ever want to find out in reality, but last year his BABIP was .391, which is ridiculously high.

2006-08-30 14:54:53
398.   Max
382 My bad on the recommendation of the Globe's "real-time" Sox coverage, as it was probably too much to expect them to say much of interest with the way the A's are manhandling them. You know things are bad when Edes is actively promoting attendance at PawSox games because there are more major leaguers playing there.

Latest report is that Wells won't consider the Cardinals, and that it's the Pads and Dodgers who are most in contention (per Wells' preference).

2006-08-30 15:07:10
399.   Schteeve
397 I got mine from Fan Graphs which actually has him at .273 BABIP and some other random board has it at .275, but I think the FanGraphs data is more recent.

I'm pretty sure .290 is the typical league average.

2006-08-30 15:18:37
400.   Jim Dean
Shaun - I think you point it out best in 381 - when the defense is good, Wang will be. When it's goes bad, he might be. I specifically worry about Jeter and A-Rod over the next few years. One fun thing to keep an eye on.

But there's nothing to say Wang can't change his approach. That 95 mph fastball up high mixed in with a sinker down, could certainly finish off guys. He might just be afraid to work high in the zome because of the way it messes with the mechanics for the sinker.

Otherwise 395, you're right. The Yanks have spent alot of time looking for a #1. Even if Wang is a #3 or #4, that's still very valuable. In two years, they could have 1-4 all under 30 (Hughes, Clippard, Wang, Karstens/Rasner) - now that would be something to behold. Something tells me I'm in a fantasy - maybe it was the Alyssa Milano pic up at PeteAbe's blog.

Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2006-08-30 16:30:48
401.   Zack
The thing is, as 400 and 395 say, Wang doesn't HAVE to be a #1 starter to be worth every penny we pay him. True, #1 starters are hard to find, but I don't think anyone every expected him to be that. Hughes projects to that, and, hopefully, can be our #1 of the future. Wang, as a #3, would be great.

And, as others have said, the sinker was something he developed in the minors, which means he can pick up other pitches too should he want. He throws 95, so its not exactly like he has nothing to fall back on. If he could develop, say, a cutter, and have a high 4 seamer, the sinker, and a cutter, well then he would really keep them off guard, and still throw sinkers 85% of the time...

I say lock him up now to a 6 year deal for, say, 1-3 mill a year.

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