Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Seven Up
2006-08-29 05:27
by Alex Belth

The Red Sox were blanked in Oakland last night and now trail the Yankees by seven games in the AL East. Meanwhile in the Big Apple, as the Yankees prepare for a difficult week, the back page of the tabloids read, "Crash Test Dummy." Ah, yes, the continuing saga of Carl Pavano. Oh, and there is still more on the struggling Alex Rodriguez, if you still have the stomach for that sort of thing. Cliff will have a preview of the Tigers series later in the day. It should be an exciting week.

Let's Go Yan-Kees.

Comments (101)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-08-29 06:23:46
1.   vockins
" incident in which [Pavano] made a derogatory comment to a spectator who was heckling him that included a reference to the fan's sexual orientation."

Classy. Screw that clown.

2006-08-29 06:37:09
2.   unpopster
Big Papi sat again yesterday due to an irregular heartbeat. The Sawx decided to send him back to Beantown for further tests.

It's a shame and I really hope that he is okay.

IMHO, if the Red Sox weren't dead already, than with Papi unavailable for who knows how long, the tombstone can now be carved for their '06 season.

2006-08-29 06:43:00
3.   vockins
I hope Ortiz gets better. Beating the Sox doesn't mean much if he's not in their lineup.
2006-08-29 06:43:01
4.   Sliced Bread
I'll take our distracting Pavano and A-Rod tabloid melodramas over Boston's bonafide baseball misery anyday.

Posted this on the previous thread, but the forecast does not look good for baseball in da Bronx tonight.

Let's hope it lets up enough to get the game in. Though I imagine the Yanks would prefer another day of rest, having picked up a game while they slept last night.

2006-08-29 06:44:14
5.   Andre
I think RSN was getting resigned to the fact that they wouldn't make the playoffs, but they had a glimmer of hope that Big Papi would break the Sox season home run record. That's probably in jeopardy now.
2006-08-29 06:44:27
6.   Felix Heredia
This is the best news I've ever heard about Pavano! He pitched three games with cracked ribs and didn't tell anybody! Now if he could only tough it out through his next butt injury . . . .
2006-08-29 06:48:47
7.   Alex Belth
That is scary and upsetting news about Ortizzle. I hope he's okay.
2006-08-29 06:53:26
8.   Cliff Corcoran
Ramirez and Ortiz are having trouble staying in the line-up and the Red Sox have averaged 2.7 runs in the ten games since the double header. Sounds about right.
2006-08-29 06:55:47
9.   mdp
I hope Papi's okay too. Hopefully it is just a classic case of panic or anxiety attacks and not something seriously wrong with his heart. As for the rest of the Red Sox, I hope the Yanks take no prisoners and continue the assault of the AL East. Hopefully our boy Wang will get a good one in tonight, weather permitted.
2006-08-29 06:59:24
10.   Jim Dean
Nothing like a good ole fashioned %$#-whupping to break your heart. Fact is they were both in the lineup when they lost five straight. Now the whole team is packing it in. For all the problems in Yankee-land, the pinstripes don't run!
2006-08-29 06:59:45
11.   Sliced Bread
I hope Ortiz is okay, too. It's remarkable that the Boston Yankee-killer seems to be getting more sympathy, and well wishes from Yankee fans than the beleaguered Pavano, who could potentially help the Yanks down the stretch (not that anyone should count on a pitcher who seems vulnerable to injury playing pepper).

I understand the difference is respect. Yanks fans respect, and somehow even admire Ortiz for beating up on the Yankees, but they have no such respect or admiration for Pavano despite his expressed intentions.

Meanwhile, so many Yankee fans would boo A-Rod tonight if he doesn't snap out of his funk, and live up to their expectations.

2006-08-29 07:00:35
12.   rbj
I hope Ortiz is ok, not that I necessarily want him in Boston's lineup. So if it's a rain out today, does that mean a doubleheader tomorrow, with DDSP making an appearance?
2006-08-29 07:23:00
13.   JL25and3
Off track, but since it's a slow day:

On Sunday, some people were wondering if anyone's ever given up switch-hitting late in their careers (obviously, suggesting it for Bernie). I've been able to find a few examples, though none of them quite fit Bernie.

The most notable is J. T. Snow, who stopped switch-hitting after the 1998 season. That year he'd had an injured shoulder and hit .164/.259/.247 against lefties. REtrosheet is inexplicably missing his 1999 righty-lefty splits, but his overall production went up. In any case, he remained a lefty batter from then on.

Wally Backman and Todd Hundley gave up switch-hitting near the end of their careers, but by that point I don't know if anyone noticed. Same goes for Jose Valentin, though he's still playing.

REggie Jefferson was a switch-hitter for a while, but I'm not sure when he gave it up. Orlando Merced came up as a switch-hitter, gave it up early, and went back to it later.

All of these players were natural lefties; they were turned into switch-hitters as pros because they couldn't hit lefties. When they still couldn't hit lefties, they gave it up. Mariano Duncan is the only exception I've found among those who gave it up, a natural righty who became a switch-hitter because he couldn't hit righties.

That's not Bernie. He's a "natural" switch-hitter, like Mantle or Murray or (I think) Reggie Smith, a guy who's been switch-hitting since he was a kid. I can't find a precendent for that, which doesn't mean it isn't there.

2006-08-29 07:23:44
14.   dianagramr

The difference is quite simple.

Ortiz has shown up for work every day for the Sox for the past 3+ years, been reasonably healthy, and produced at a very high level.

Pavano passed by a black cat while walking under a ladder and looking at a cracked mirror.

(But really, he never was worth 4/40M in ANY circumstance)

2006-08-29 07:30:18
15.   tocho
I hope Ortiz is OK.

I don't know many Yankee fans that dislike Ortiz. Aside from being a tremendous baseball player, he's looks to be a great guy.

2006-08-29 07:34:35
16.   JL25and3
Fans seem to be particularly offended that Pavano has been injured while making a lot of money. I don't get the connection. I mean, I don't get why injuries are taken as a sign of weak character to begin with, but does money make that even worse?
2006-08-29 07:36:50
17.   Sliced Bread
14 Right, Diana. Like I said, the difference is respect.

As for your assessment "He [Pavano] never was worth 4/40 in ANY circumstance."

Brian Cashman thought so. In fact, so did the Red Sox, Tigers, and Mariners among others. I recall Pavano actually took less than his other offers to play for the Yanks.

The fact also remains, it is more in the interests of Yankees fans for Pavano to get well soon, and return to the field, than it is for Ortiz to get back to crushing the ball.

Be that as it may, I wish them both good health.

2006-08-29 07:38:45
18.   Levy2020
2, etc. Best wishes to Ortiz from me, too.
2006-08-29 07:40:37
19.   Sliced Bread
17 I should say the main difference is respect. Ortiz's health concerns are potentially more serious, which is another reason he seems to be getting more love than poor Pavano in Yankeeland.
2006-08-29 07:50:18
20.   Bob B
With the Redsox apparantly out of it, any thoughts on whether it would be better to take on the Twins, the White Sox or the A's? WIthout ruminating on it. I think the White Sox, though defending champions, are the weakest of that lot this season. I fear any team in a five game series and particularly the Twins with their one two pitching punch.
2006-08-29 07:54:13
21.   Fred Vincy
Sliced, I disagree that Pavano was worth the money at the time. He'd basically had 2 good years, neither of them dominating. Pedro Martinez was on the market, dying to come to the Yankees, and not much more expensive. Sure, Pedro had had injury problems, but so had Pavano.

And I think Pavano was a Steinbrenner decision, not a Cashman decision. Steinbrenner loves guys who are tough on the Yanks in the postseason (Jaret Wright, Big Unit, Kevin Brown, Mike Mussina, David Wells, Tommy John, Don Gullett....)

2006-08-29 07:56:01
22.   Sliced Bread
16 Good point, and that attitude might not be unique to our culture. Matsui seems to understand this, as he apologized for getting hurt.

13 It is my understanding that Bernie did not learn to switch hit until he was already in the Yanks system. I think that was part of his development, Posada, too.

2006-08-29 07:59:24
23.   Sliced Bread
21 Good point. Pavano was probably a Steinbrenner grab for the reasons you explained. The point remains that 40 mill was the market price for Pavano, and the Yanks were far from the only ones interested.

With Pedro, it probably wasn't only his injury history, but also his airplane hangar filled with Red Sox-Yankees "who's my daddy?" baggage that kept him out of pinstripes.

2006-08-29 08:19:14
24.   bp1
17 I think the difference is more than just respect. What Big Papi is going through is potentially bigger than his role on the Red Sox, as we all know. Heart problems are certainly more scary than broken wrists, torn ligaments, or sore buttocks. Someone's life is at stake - not just their livelihood. Timlin and Tito and the rest had it right - "We just want the guy to be healthy. We'll worry about baseball later.". Right on.

If Pavano suffered a serious health issue, I think we would all feel the same as we do toward Papi. That is "Gee, I hope he's gonna be ok". I think we'd feel that way about most ballplayers, Kevin Brown included. (Ok - maybe I'm pushing it there).

My thoughts and prayers go out to David Ortiz and his family today. I hope this "irregular heartbeat" is no big deal and he get a clean bill of health from his doctors. However, I would not mind one bit if he was home chillin out when the Red Sox come to the Bronx next month.

2006-08-29 08:19:15
25.   rbj
Yeah, with Ortiz it's the "irregular heartbeat" that doesn't sound good. It's beyond the Manny has a sore knee thing.
2006-08-29 08:20:30
26.   bp1
19 Whoops. Good on ya, Sliced. Already made the point I tried to make in 24.
2006-08-29 08:20:49
27.   standuptriple
I'm glad we stayed away from Pedro as his durability is still in question. Plus he's had success, but I think we can all agree the NL is inferior and he has exploited that.
2006-08-29 08:35:33
28.   bp1
27 Mum's the word on Pedro, his ability, his durability, and his daddy. Might have to face him in October and I don't want any leftover jinxes hanging around. I don't think it would get much better than Moose beating Pedro to bring home #27, so I'm steering clear of anything that can disrupt some good karma.

Heh heh heh ...

2006-08-29 08:36:00
29.   C2Coke
4 If Agassi managed to win his first round game in the US Open during that 3.5 hr that wasn't raining last night. I am hopeful for the Yanks tonight.
2006-08-29 08:40:27
30.   Murray
1. Pavano hurt himself and concealed the injury. It's annoying enough when that happens because of injuries that occur as a result of play, but it's worse when a player hurts himself in an off-field accident and then fails to seek treatment. It's entirely different from Ortiz's medical problem.

2. I didn't have great hopes that Pavano would help this team, but it would have been nice to give him a start or two down the stretch to rest one of the old guys.

3. I don't know how to do that link thing to other posts, but regarding #13 above, the thing about Mariano Duncan is that he came up in the Dodgers' system at a time when the Dodgers decided that any punchless right-handed hitter who could run should be made to switch-hit. It wasn't that Duncan couldn't hit righties.

2006-08-29 08:43:54
31.   standuptriple
28 Well, a healthy Pedro is still an effective Pedro. I just believe he, like Rocket, extended their careers quite a bit by getting to face a dead bat each time through the lineup. I am quite confident that Petey's nagging injuries would make for many arguments/discussions on this board (maybe even more than A-Rod) had we picked him up.
2006-08-29 08:44:20
32.   C2Coke
Many of us definitely feel closer to Ortiz than Pavano. Heck, we saw a lot more of Ortiz in the past year than Pavano, didn't we? However, I do hope they are both fine.
2006-08-29 08:45:49
33.   Zack
I wish Ortiz well, though I don't think its going to keep him out long. I would, however, say that the Sox offense was hurting a lot before he went out, mostly because of the Manny saga. Taking one of those guys out of the lineup does almost the same damage as taking both. I wouldn't be so quick to sink the Sox Ship yet, at least not until our team is a bit more consistant...

As for Pavano, yeah, he was probably overpaid, but lets not kid anyone, the guy can (could) pitch. Its not like we gave that money to Kyle Snyder of Loiaza, or ever Jaret Wright; Pavano has real ability, showed real moxy, and seemed to really want to take the ball for us. That being said, he had a history of injuries causing him to miss serious. I would say we should have had some out in his contract a la Wright, but then we wouldn't have been able to sign him. Hindsight is a great thing, eh?

2006-08-29 08:47:28
34.   Zack
I, for one, certainly don't feel any CLOSER to either guy. Its as simple as what most people have already said: Ortiz is in the hospital, Pavano is still pitching...
2006-08-29 08:47:35
35.   standuptriple
On the Pavano "accident". I wonder what the guy who got hit while at a stop sign got from the $40mil "man"? A new Benz? Maybe he's a Yanks fan and settled from some choice season tix? Or was Pavano just "washing Jeff Kent's truck"?
I do think the Yanks should fine him, at least $250K for not disclosing the injury.
2006-08-29 08:56:14
36.   Schteeve
Pavano's situation is ridiculous, Ortiz's is potentially life threatening. I think that explains the difference in sympathy.

Get better Papi.

2006-08-29 09:02:11
37.   Deltasocratess
Well, I think we're making progress when a hard-working, productive, charistmatic, black, Latin Red Sox player is seen in a positive light by Yankee fans, while a wussy, always-injured, sulking, Caucasian, Ct. Yankee player is seen in a bad light by Yankee fans.

But that's just me.

2006-08-29 09:05:17
38.   vockins
2006-08-29 09:05:28
39.   Simone
Pavano has always been injury prone. It is just worse now. He reminds of Nick Johnson in terms of the injury bug. Nick just got over being always injured this season. The Yankees have to hang in there with Pavano. He is a good young pitcher when he is actually pitching. They have to keep hoping that he will eventually be able to contribute this season as he is desperately needed.
2006-08-29 09:06:15
40.   Sliced Bread
37 I don't think race has anything to do with the amount of sympathy Pavano or Ortiz are receiving from Yanks fans, nor should it.
2006-08-29 09:12:12
41.   Shawn Clap
Pavano is a bum who doesn't even want to be here. Remember the whole "rather play in Detroit" business?

His Yankee career thus far:
2 years - 4 wins - $20 Million

Has there ever been a bigger bust in major league history?

2006-08-29 09:15:11
42.   JL25and3
30 Thanks for the clarification. Speedy banjo hitters are definitely made into swith-hitters - I think U.L. Washington was another example, and perhaps Bernie was the same when he was starting out. (You're right, Sliced, he was converted in the minors.)

I was going on sketchy information - it's not the easiest subject to google - and, as it happens, Duncan also couldn't hit righties at all. Correlation, not causation; my mistake.

Do the link thing by putting the number in brackets, [like so].

2006-08-29 09:20:57
43.   vockins
Can anyone explain how Pavano can make three rehab starts but only complain about the injury until he's about to get brought up?
2006-08-29 09:20:58
44.   bp1
41 Dunno. Last year, around May, everyone thought the same about the Giambino. Now - nobody is looking to void his contract.

I'm not Pavano defender or supporter, but I think we let this play out before passing judgement as far as "all time" whatevers. He has not produced for the Yankees. He would have to go 10-7 (or something like that) to even match Kevin Brown's "contribution".

But he is under contract for two more years. If he's still a bum after 2008, then we award him Worst. Signing. Ever. But until then - I say we give him a Giambi and see where this goes.

My fingers and toes are crossed, 'cause arms are in short supply everywhere and the Yankees sure could use a pitcher who can contribute to the team. Now and next year.

2006-08-29 09:24:58
45.   JL25and3
38, 41 I don't know if that's true or not. One story, unnamed sources, never confirmed. The story said that Pavano would ask to be traded, and he didn't, so I don't know what to make of the rest.

Aside from that, I don't have any reason to think he's a "bum." And I certainly don't see how being a bust is his fault.

Everyone knows that signing pitchers is a gamble, and with the number of free agent pitchers the Yankees have signed over the years, you have to expect that some won't work out. Decisions made by the Steibrenner-Tampa axis over the last few years probably carry an even greater risk, because their judgment isn't awfully good. But the Yankees took this gamble, and lost. That's not Pavano's fault.

2006-08-29 09:26:03
46.   Deltasocratess
40, that's exactly my point.
2006-08-29 09:26:21
47.   eephus
I hope Papi's okay, too. Fortunately, it sounds like sending him for tests was more precautionary than anything else -- though the phrase "irregular heartbeat" is scary, it seems like the Sox are just being careful (as well they should be, of course), and I bet he'll be back to destroying Yankee pitching in a few weeks.

As for the sympathy on this site, I think we all have some form of Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to Ortiz -- you know, if you're held hostage long enough, you begin to relate to your captors...

2006-08-29 09:28:38
48.   mickey1956
One good pitching note. Last week Tyler Clippard was #1 on the propect hot sheet at Baseball America. This week it's Phillip Hughes.

2006-08-29 09:33:12
49.   bp1
47 Ha! That's funny.

Papi is indeed one scary dude, but I'm more afraid of Manny than Papi. Manny is a hitting savant - a rainman among right handed sluggers. Papi can be handled - although careful handling is required. He is making outs 3/4's of the time this year, just about. The key is making sure the 1/4th of the time doesn't cost you the game.

Manny, on the other hand, you just never know. After what he did to Proctor this year - the guy scares me.

2006-08-29 09:34:35
50.   yanklifer
48 The answer to the rotation next year may come from within. Who would ever have thought...
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-08-29 09:36:39
51.   Sliced Bread
46 Clearly, I'm confused. If race has nothing to do with it, why bring it up? 37
2006-08-29 09:39:18
52.   bp1
One last comment about Pavano and then I'm mum until he laces up his spikes for an MLB game.

Maybe Cashman, as his "disciplinary action", should take away Pav's Porsche and whatever other sports cars he has and give him a Minivan with anti-lock brakes, all season tires, side cushion air bags, cup holders, and fold down seats.

Just like mine. :-)

Heck - he can HAVE mine. I'll take his beat up Porsche in exchange. The kids can ride in - well - they can walk.

2006-08-29 09:42:08
53.   Ron Burgundy
If I'm the Sawx, I just put Ortiz on the DL. A heart problem is not something you rush or fool around with. Ortiz isn't exactly in great shape, so a heart problem must be nursed seriously. I hope he recovers to 100%.
2006-08-29 09:47:39
54.   Shaun P
I too hope Papi is OK. An irregular heartbeat is a scary thing to experience, even if just brought on by anxiety or stress.

As for Pavano, I'd like to leave all talk about him behind - no pun intended - and instead discuss these numbers:

BP Postseason Odds
Generated Tue Aug 29 08:54:53 EDT 2006

Chance of Winning Division: 98.32712
Chance of Winning WC: .16378
Chance of Making Playoffs: 98.49089

Red Sox
Chance of Winning Division: 1.33212
Chance of Winning WC: 1.54203
Chance of Making Playoffs: 2.87414

And with that, I think Bob B brings up a great point in 20. I'd much rather face the White Sox in the first round, because their pitching is probably the worst of all the playoff contenders.

2006-08-29 10:31:26
55.   Chyll Will
Be patient, people...

I laughed at the notion of Pavano making a comeback this season right after it was mentioned in the euphoria of the sweep, partically due to my latent cynicism, but mainly because of my suspicion of someone who has suffered various muscle and bone injuries over a year and a half of time suddenly zooming through rehabs within two weeks and making a difference. There's more to it than Pavano knows or is willing to admit, and in light of how he chose to disclose this latest ailment; if it were my money and my concern, I'd send him through a regimen of physical tests to ensure that there is nothing more than muscle and bone damage from wear and tear that has occurred from the moment he signed to now.

These discussions at some point bring yet another issue I can relate to in one way or another. I'll share some insight with you that I kind of correlate to both Big Papi and Pavano...

When I was in high school, I began having grand mal seizures. I was pretty atheletic then; though not for school, I played plenty of basbeball and basketball, not to mention intramural football. The first seizure is always frightening and bewildering because you have no idea why it happens. But what was probably the most frightening experience of my previous life occurred after the on-court death of Hank Gathers; you see, it was during a battery of neurological, physical and other tests that the doctors discovered Wolfe-Parkinson-White Syndrome; a congenatal defect in the heart caused something like a short-cut that made the heart beat three times instead of two. I was scheduled for a cathederization to "fix" this issue.

Then on TV, I watched Hank Gathers do a slam, wobble halfway down the court and drop dead. It was attributed to a congenatal heart condition.

I say this for two reasons: imagine what could be going through anyone's mind when they witness someone die of something that you might possibly have yourself. Even if it's not exactly the same condition, you at least wonder aloud. How many atheletes have died under similar circumstances? And not just atheletes?

There is something to be said about health issues in sports, be it a tweak or something more sinister or drastic, but right now no one really knows. I hope for both Ortiz and Pavano's sakes that they get themselves really checked out beyond just sports medicine; though I have jokes about Pavano, I cannot overlook my concern that there is a deeper health issue that should be looked into. I hate taking speculation seriously, that's why if nothing else Cashman and certainly Steinbrenner should encourage an intense check-up for his own sake.

And saludos to him and Big Papi.

2006-08-29 10:32:43
56.   rbj
And speaking of serious health issues, why is Jim Edmonds not on the DL. He's still feeling the effects of the concussion, and can't play all that much. The media should be ripping the Cards for not sitting this guy down.
2006-08-29 10:32:54
57.   Schteeve
37 Why bring race into it? Nobody else did.
2006-08-29 10:33:51
58.   Dimelo
I really hope Papi is doing well and will live a long healthy life. A co-worker asked me this morning how I felt about Papi's heart condition, and I genuinely want to see him get better so he can torment Yankee fans some more. Me included. As many big hits as he has had against the Yanks, I've never developed a hatred for him or Manny. I love them both because they are Dominicans, but I didn't care for Petey when he was with the Sawx.

My co-worker then asked me a follow-up question, would you feel the same if it were Schilling? I'm not going to say what my answer was...but you can imagine. I already said something in jest (yesterday) about Pavano and the PC police jumped on me. I'm a little smarter today so I'll refrain from putting into text my loathing of all things Curt Schilling. I'll never have any sympathy for Schilling, his comments and rants have never been very sympathetic to Yankee fans.

2006-08-29 10:35:33
59.   Schteeve
As far as the Twins 1-2 punch goes, isn't Liriano still on the DL? Anyone know when he will be back or what his injury status is?
2006-08-29 10:36:04
60.   Chyll Will
54 Sorry Shaun P for blowing up the issue again, but timing is relagated to hit and miss around here, especially when you write a long post, as is my wont from time to time... my bad.
2006-08-29 10:36:20
61.   Dimelo
57 Whoa...I agree. Is there a hidden meaning behind 'Deltasocratess'? I just looked it up and it said, "a person who thinks like Johnny Cochran". Makes sense... :-)
2006-08-29 10:41:16
62.   pistolpete
58 Let's just say I feel the same way about ol' Ketchup Sock. Without even knowing what you said, that is. ;-)
2006-08-29 10:42:11
63.   wsporter
54 MFD Those numbers still look good, can you continue to post them as often as possible as a public service?

I don't know about the Chisox, something about them scares the crap out of me. I put them in the category of be careful what you wish for you just might get it. I know their pitching looks a little sketchy right now but you never know what's going to happen when the lights go on in October. Not that the Twinkies will be a walk in the park either.

As things stand though I'm truly glad that the #*#%ing Angels are 8.5 out in the WC. Now if the A's can just hold on….

2006-08-29 10:51:14
64.   rilkefan
Why not read 37 as simply pointing out that race used to be an issue in these matters and now (among reasonable people) is not any more. That's something I'm happy about, and I don't see any harm in noting progress on occasion.
2006-08-29 10:57:56
65.   Shaun P
64 That's exactly the way I read 37, and I think its a big positive.

63 MFD, ask and ye shall receive! randym's got the lineups, I'll post BP's postseason odds daily if possible.

60 Will, that's exactly the kind of Pavano talk that ought to be said, no apologies needed. Its really easy to make fun of 'Glass Carl', I certainly have - but your post brought a lot of perspective to the discussion, and I was glad to read it.

2006-08-29 11:04:59
66.   Deltasocratess
That's precisely my point, 64 and 65: I'm not using race here to be incendiary, but to show that the good or bad vibes re: Big Papi and Pavano are INDEPENDENT of race.

Don't know about you, but my favorite part of MLK's I have a dream speach is where he said that "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character", and this is what I was trying to pint to.

BTW - Delta Socrates is a radio call sign I received as an election observer in Panama's 1999 elections (Baseball Primer readers know that I'm from Panama, in Latim America), and I have used it for years.

2006-08-29 11:07:45
67.   Chyll Will
64 Kinda wish it was articulated better then I would find that sentiment 37 more sincere.
2006-08-29 11:08:29
68.   Dimelo
66 I was only giving you crap...and now that Shaun, rilkefan and yourself have shown me the light...sometimes things get lost in translation.
2006-08-29 11:12:31
69.   Chyll Will
64 Not to say it wasn't sincere, but as demonstrated in 68 there's a stronger way to make the same point. No offense.
2006-08-29 11:12:50
70.   claybeez
Here's hoping Papi is determined to have a big, strong, healthy heart. He seems like a good guy. Regardless, as someone who's dealt with tachycrdia for years (thanks to Lymes disease), I can empathize with the stress and fear caused by such a circumstance. If there is a problem, I hope his medical doctors identify it quickly. And if they can't, he should go see a naturopath.
2006-08-29 11:15:04
71.   JL25and3
I understood it just fine the first time. I thought it was plenty clear, especially given the long, difficult history of black players in Boston.
2006-08-29 11:16:07
72.   Max
58 Dimelo, when it comes to Red Light, the police are busy getting doughnuts. Fire away.
2006-08-29 11:17:03
73.   Schteeve
66 Thanks for the clarification. I agree.
2006-08-29 11:17:28
74.   Sliced Bread
66 In bringing up their races, you are, in a way, unintentionally or not, making the good or bad vibes re: Ortiz and Pavano about race.

Why not simply criticize Pavano for being a fragile wuss, or whatever you perceive him to be, and leave race out of it? Why, in this day and age, bring up the fact that he's a white fragile wuss (your assessment) ?

I don't see bringing up the races of the players as celebrating "progress," but more as stumbling backward. That's how I read 37 and maintain it was not necessary.

2006-08-29 11:30:06
75.   kylepetterson
54 to make you feel even better, say we go 16 - 17 in our final 33 games. Boston would have to go 22 - 9 to win the AL East. Here's to hoping we play over .500 ball!
2006-08-29 11:44:42
76.   rilkefan
74 - on the one hand, we're all reasonable people, so discussing our perceptions of these injuries in the context of race isn't necessary and can be a distraction, because it's hard to talk about emotionally fraught issues - on the other, race still matters in baseball (see Bonds, Barry) and in society at large, so too bad. Saying as you do that we can never point out that race isn't an issue in how we treat two men is not going to help.
2006-08-29 11:50:56
77.   Jersey
76 - Here, here.

This is an odd situation: One fellow says that race isn't the divisive issue it once was...and another fellow gets offended at the mention of race. head is spinning.

Weather calls for 70% chance of rain, but it won't be heavy. I bet they get the game in.

2006-08-29 11:51:34
78.   Jersey
*that's Weather SERVICE
2006-08-29 11:53:15
79.   pistolpete
76 The only part I can see race playing even a tiny part in the whole Pavano vs. Ortiz injury conversation would be in relation to genetics - perhaps Ortiz has a history of his condition in the family - or perhaps it's relative to the Dominican culture in general?

Pavano could have a brittle bone structure - again, something that may have been tied to his family health history.

It's a stretch, I realize. :-P

2006-08-29 11:58:18
80.   Deltasocratess
74, Dude, take a chill pill: while reading the comments here, I thought it very interesting that Yankee fans (of all people) are very positive towards Papi Ortiz, but very down on Pavano.

This is interesting not only because of the Yankees - Red Sox allegiances, but because of the different origins/ethnicities/skin color of the participants.

Go back to read my comment 37 and you'll see that while I mentioned the skin color of Ortiz and Pavano, I also mentioned their different origins/ethnicities (one being Latin, the other from Ct.).

FOr some reason, you decided to focus on race: all the more power to you, but I think that the rest of the board picked up on what I wanted to focus on and is moving on.

2006-08-29 11:59:23
81.   kylepetterson
76 Barry Bonds' race is an issue because he has made it one.
2006-08-29 12:04:27
82.   Sliced Bread
80 "Ct." (Connecticut) is an origin/ethnicity?

I suggest you go back and read 37 and omit the words, "black," "Latin," and "Caucasian." Now, was that what you were trying to say?

I'm not the one who decided to focus on race.

Yes, let's move on from this discussion.

2006-08-29 12:06:04
83.   yankz
I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed more on this site considering I've read at least one article on the topic: Wang for Cy Young?
2006-08-29 12:08:35
84.   yankz
From Peter Abraham, re: Pavano-

"It was reported today that he hit a garbage truck. That is somehow fitting."

2006-08-29 12:10:47
85.   pistolpete
84 I'll make the obvious joke:

Too bad he wasn't thrown from the vehicle and into the back of the truck, and promptly hauled away.

2006-08-29 12:13:59
86.   bp1
83 Fingers and toes crossed, yankz. Fingers and toes.
2006-08-29 12:17:54
87.   Chyll Will
76 Still, if race is going to be a topic, isn't better to address it when it is plaintive; in other words, though it may bring us another perspective, was it warranted in the context of our discussion? If it were a discussion about Barry Bonds, who has definitely involved the question of race in many of his discussions (and has a right to do so), was the issue of race even a question here until someone outside of the key focus pointed it out? Again, a stronger articulation would have lent more veracity to the intent, though it remains a valid point.

What I sense that Sliced is objecting to is in the vein of 'why preach to the choir'? I only speak for myself when I say that the point is worth making very strongly, but there are arenas where that point would have a much better and necessary effect; I don't see this particular thread as evidence that the sentiment, though appreciated, is absolutely necessary (yet.)

And, having taken a while to write this, I refer anyone reading this to 60 if the point has already been beaten to death.

2006-08-29 12:23:10
88.   rbj
Wang's up there in terms of wins, but his ERA is higher than Santana's and is 137 Ks shy of Johan. I will say that Worm Killer is definitely the Yanks MVPitcher, and might even consider him MVP of the team.
2006-08-29 12:27:49
89.   pistolpete
84 I was thinking about that, but Halladay tops him by a sizable margin in about every category except wins - and with about 13 more IP to boot.

If Wang doesn't finish top 5 in the voting, however, I'd be shocked.

2006-08-29 12:28:25
90.   C2Coke
By reading all the previous posts, it may be safe to conclude that we might be experiencing a bit of a "Post-Off-Day Syndrome".

What we need, is a Yankees' game tonight. Let's hope all the raining so far is enough for the day.

2006-08-29 12:31:22
91.   yankz
Over at the Griddle, there's a link to a site saying teams may not get draft picks for letting free agents walk. If I read that correctly, that's great news for the Yanks.
2006-08-29 12:36:11
92.   Chyll Will
84 More so if he was trying to avoid rear-ending somebody...
2006-08-29 12:37:53
93.   Sliced Bread
87 Yes, Chyll. Yes. Thank you.
2006-08-29 12:40:48
94.   bp1
88 Ah ... Santana. He'll be in Yankee Pinstripes when he's 41.


The schedule on the right says Wang vs Santana on Sunday. Maybe Cy Wang (tm: Peter Abraham) can show the Cy Young voters a thing or two in a head-to-head matchup. I gotta watch that one.

2006-08-29 12:48:04
95.   Magoo1000
I've got the cure for all of A-rod's woes...he needs to grow out the 'stache!!!

My recommendation would be for a slick and slim, 80's porn style ala Sheff.

2006-08-29 12:51:07
96.   mehmattski
95 I recommend the 1870s handlebar mustache, making him look like a silent film-era villian. That would be incredible.
2006-08-29 12:51:19
97.   JL25and3
91 Wow, that's big. Overall, it will help the Yankees - but not all the time. Last year they lost their first round draft pick for signing Damon, but they also got the Phillies first round pick (and a supplementary first-round pick?) for losing Leiber. So, in effect, they were able to trade up in the first round. From here on in, they'll always be one of the last picks in each round.

On the other hand, their first-round picks are frequently players who've dropped because of "signability problems." A lot of those may still filter down to the Yankees.

2006-08-29 13:10:27
98.   rilkefan
I think I read re Pavano that Cashman said that other Yankees have pitched with similar injuries. Anybody know who he might be referring to?
2006-08-29 13:18:25
99.   Sliced Bread
98 O'Neil played in the 99 World Series with a broken rib. Not sure which Yankees pitchers he's referring to.
2006-08-29 13:23:53
100.   rilkefan
99 - oh yeah. It's hard to hold O'Neill and Pavano in one's head at the same time.

Maybe Cashman was talking about playing generally.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-08-29 13:40:13
101.   Schteeve
If Pavano knows what's good for him, he will insist on being on the mound next week no matter what. Make Joe yank him if he's ineffective or phyically unable to perform, but he needs a PR move like WHOA.

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