Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Splitting the Difference
2006-07-05 12:30
by Cliff Corcoran

The Yankees got whooped last night, but while the Indians 19-1 victory was both impressive and disheartening, it was by no means historic. In fact, the Indians gave the Yankees and even worse beating less than two years ago, on the Bombers home turf no less. That game, the 22-0 score of which was historic, came just two games after the Yankees had scored nine runs in the ninth inning against the Blue Jays in Toronto. Last night's pasting came just two games after the Yankees erased 4-0 second inning deficit with a 16-run outburst against the Mets. In both cases, the two outbursts cancel each other out.

If there's anything to be learned here at all it's that the pitchers involved (Javy Vazquez, Tanyon Sturtze, C.J. Nitkowski and Esteban Loaiza in 2004; Shawn Chacon, T.J. Beam, Mike Myers and Scott Proctor last night--Ron Villone and Kyle Farnsworth, the only pitchers in either game to emerge unscathed, allowed just two baserunners, both against Villone, in 3 2/3 innings last night and thus escape criticism here) should be treated with suspicion from here on out. Of course, Myers entered the game with a two-month scoreless streak (covering just 9 2/3 IP given his LOOGY role), so one could argue his rough outing was merely a bit of statistical correction. Still, Vazquez and Loaiza went on to play key roles in the disaster that was Game 7 of the 2004 ALCS, Nitkowski had just 7 2/3 innings left in his career, and Sturtze spent most of the next season plus sabotaging the Yankee bullpen from within.

The good news is that after being stymied by rookie Jeremy Sowers--the odd rookie who may actually be as good as he looked against the URPing Bombers--on Monday and embarrassed last night, the Yankees still have a chance to split their series at the Jake with two of their best pitchers lined up for the final two games. Tonight the man on the mound will be Mike Mussina, who pitched four no-hit innings in his last start only to have his no-no stopped short by a rain delay. Moose has allowed just one run on five hits in his last 11 innings while striking out ten. What's more, he should be well rested after throwing just 53 pitches in that rain-shortened start. The only concern with Moose is the tight groin he experienced in that start, though all reports indicate that the injury is no longer bothering him. On the hill for the Tribe will be Paul Byrd, who held the Yankees to one run over seven innings three weeks ago in the Bronx only to lose 1-0 to Chien-Ming Wang and the Yankee bullpen (in that case Myers, Farnsworth and Rivera).

Peter Abraham reports that the Yankees have called up veteran starter and former Royal Kris Wilson from Columbus. Though they have yet to announce how they intend to clear room on the 25-man roster for Wilson, one suspects that T.J. Beam, who has surrendered three home runs in his last two innings pitched and was responsible for six of the Indians' 19 runs last night, will be optioned back to triple-A. Wilson last pitched in the majors in 2003 as a member of the Royals, posting a 5.33 ERA in 29 games, four of which were starts. He was similarly roughed up as a starter in triple-A Omaha in 2004, but was closer to average pitching primarily in relief for Columbus last year. Retained as roster-filler this year, he has been excellent in the Clippers' rotation, posting a strong 2.84 ERA, a career-best 7.14 K/9 and allowing just 74 hits in 92 innings. The right-handed Wilson has 235 career innings in the major leagues and a 5.35 ERA to go with them, so there's a good deal of wishful thinking going on here, but one thing he's always had has been excellent control. Indeed, he's walked just 1.47 men per nine innings in Columbus this year, a number that's entirely consistent with his minor league track record. So the good news is that Wilson won't hurt himself. The bad news is hitters have a history of putting a hurting on his pitches.

Comments (183)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2006-07-05 13:43:39
1.   randym77
It's reportedly Reese headed back to Columbus, not Beam.
2006-07-05 13:48:33
2.   claybeez
According to Rotoworld we've claimed Aaron guiel off waivers. His line for the Royals .220/.339/.460 in 50 at-bats.
2006-07-05 14:02:07
3.   monkeypants
2 Hmmm. I'd like to think he's an improvement over someone.
2006-07-05 14:07:38
4.   Count Zero
Can he see a flyball in RF at Yankee Stadium? If so, then he's definitely an upgrade. ;-)
2006-07-05 14:09:38
5.   randym77
3 He's supposedly an improvement over T-Long.

Aaron Guiel is joining the team tomorrow, so someone else has to be sent down. Beam?

2006-07-05 14:13:02
6.   Benjamin Kabak
3 33-year-old Aaron Guiel is an improvement over no one.
2006-07-05 14:14:08
7.   YankeeInMichigan
I'm surprised that I haven't seen any ranting about the all-star roster, so I'll start the thread here:

-- The fans and players both snubbed Sizemore, who has the highest VORP among AL outfielders. Guillen appropriately corrected this omission. Had Sizemore been on the roster already, Guillen could have chosen outfielder David DeJesus as KC's representative, making room for another deserving pitcher.
-- Guillen presumably did not know about Rios' injury at the time when he made his initial selections. If he had, he could have a) given Rios' spot to DeJesus or b) given the spot to Gary Matthews (as the Rangers' rep) and then selected Carlos Guillen (who is more deserving than Michael Young) at shortstop.
-- Guillen's selections of Konerko over Hafner and Buehrle over Liriano/Verlander/Haren/Schilling/Mussina/... are reprehensible.
-- The league's selection of Hernandez and Pierzynski for the 32nd-man ballot makes no sense whatsoever. They aren't even the best catchers who missed the cut.

2006-07-05 14:21:14
8.   monkeypants
7 I personally am glad when as many Yankees as possible are snubbed, so they do not have to play (and risk injury) in an exhibition game. I understand the historical and emotional importance of the ASG, but the last ten years or so--between interleague play, jimmying with the AS break, stupid fan voting, etc.--have completely invalidated the relevance of the ASG.

Let other fans get worked up over the Red/White Sox v. Mets show. I'll just relax and hope Jorge gets some needed rest.

2006-07-05 14:28:05
9.   randym77
SI says the Big Unit was tipping his pitches against the Mets:

2006-07-05 14:28:56
10.   randym77
9 Arrgh. Copied the wrong URL in. Try this one:

2006-07-05 14:30:14
11.   yankaholic
7 ASG.. who cares.. it does more harm to the team than good..

i particularly fret about the pitchers..

an even more worse thing is the HomeRun derby.. that screws up ur swing so badly.. Abreu had a tuff time correcting his swing after his HRDerby exploits..

i don mind posn players but i would like our pitchers to stay happen.. but for guys like MO that wont happen till he retires..

regarding the Ozzie Guillen thing.. that guy needed his ring last year.. else.. no one would put up this much crap.. even a GM like Ken Williams..

Guillen is a disgrace to the coaching community.. he has a series of incidents that are deplorable.. how he got away with his Marriotti bashing is beyond me..

2006-07-05 14:31:33
12.   yankaholic
11 donno how i wrote

"uld like our pitchers to stay HAPPEN"

it should read

uld like our pitchers to stay HOME

2006-07-05 14:40:35
13.   Shaun P
7 I'm peeved that Moose isn't an all-star, but oh well. Like many of you said, better that he not be selected so he can get the 3 days off. I can't wait to see what happens when Ozzie tries to run Mo/Papelbon/BJ Ryan out there for multiple innings, as nothing he does would surprise me. He's a joke.

That said, as Rob Neyer pointed out, MLB is supposed to advise on the manager's selections - and MLB has clearly dropped that ball, big time.

5 6 Guiel at least has some power, and knows how to take a walk. If this means Bernie is back to bench player/lefty masher, that's fine with me. I'd still prefer Kevin Thompson, but oh well.

2006-07-05 14:41:13
14.   Zack
Why the heck do we need to claim Aaron Guiel off waivers, and whatsmore, actually put him on the team, where he will, even worse, play everyday because of Torre's tendancies? I mean, he did get cut by the Royals!

And, as for Wilson, another case of Cashman bowing to Torre's tendancies I suspect. He's a true Tanyon Sturtze/Small mold, a "vet" with a career of mediocrity to crapitude, who gets the nod over the kid with the short but good minor league career, purely because Torre can't handle another kid. Why not White here? I don't mind Wilson if he does okay, but he should get no more than 2-3 shots at it...

2006-07-05 14:43:15
15.   Benjamin Kabak
13 His .320 career OBP really blows me away. I guess he can take a walk now and then. /sarcasm off

He was DFA'd by the Kansas City Royals. That means the worst team doesn't want you.

2006-07-05 14:59:19
16.   Shaun P
15 I suppose that means that JP Howell is similarly useless? I mean, all the Royals did was trade him for Joey Gathright and his career .243/.313/.291 line. (end of sarcasm)

"That means the worst team doesn't want you." That reasoning worked for T-Ball, but it doesn't work here.

Guiel is not T-Ball Long. Here are Guiel's career minor league splits:

.290/.387/.515/.902 OPS

and Long's:

.274/.345/.435/.780 OPS

In fact, Guiel's numbers remind me of this minor league line:


Anyone want to guess who that line belongs to?

2006-07-05 15:01:49
17.   Benjamin Kabak
16 First, that line did work with T-Long. Why he was on the Yankees for so long, the World will never know.

And anyway: Who cares what his Minor League line is? The guy is 33, has 888 Big League at bats under his belt and is terrible.

2006-07-05 15:09:48
18.   randym77
And the lineup:

Johnny Damon CF
Derek Jeter SS
Jason Giambi DH
Alex Rodriguez 3B
Jorge Posada C
Bernie Williams RF
Andy Phillips 1B
Melky Cabrera LF
Miguel Cairo 2B

Guess Nick Green's moment in the spotlight is over.

2006-07-05 15:23:44
19.   YankeeInMichigan
13 He'll probably want to run Mo multiple innings, since the White Sox are playing the Yankees after the break.
2006-07-05 15:24:50
20.   randym77
Guiel's numbers against righties aren't too bad.

The bad news is that that likely means a Bernie/Guiel platoon in RF.

2006-07-05 15:57:00
21.   randym77
Kris Wilson was schedule to start for the Clippers tonight. I assume they brought him up today in case Moose's groin acts up or something.

Colter Bean is getting the start in Columbus in Wilson's place.

2006-07-05 15:58:55
22.   JVarghese81
Your namesake is getting the start against the Red Sox tonight so here's hoping he channels those pro-Yankee Corcoran vibes into another Tampa Bay win!
2006-07-05 16:11:33
23.   Benjamin Kabak
21 This is all part of the Yankees' masterplan to improve by becoming the Kansas City Royals. It started a long time ago with David Cone, moved to Johnny Damon and now has bottomed out with Terrence Long, Kris Wilson and Aaron Guiel. Maybe they can land Doug Mientkiewicz and Mark Grudzielanek next too.
2006-07-05 16:12:10
24.   Benjamin Kabak
Another basehit by Derek "Singles" Jeter. No more home runs for DJ :-(
2006-07-05 16:12:52
25.   Coltre Hughes
Bryd. I have to admit, I like watching this guy pitch. He's so unassuming. I know people refer to "Frasier", and there is a resemblence, but to me, he's more like a leprachaun or a medieval cobbler or someting. "Don't mind me, just doing some pitching...whoops, sorry, there's strike one, just doing my job."
2006-07-05 16:14:47
26.   Benjamin Kabak
25 My only problem with him is that he is terrible against teams who aren't the Yankees. I know he's been better late. But he really steps it up big time against the Yankee offense.
2006-07-05 16:22:15
27.   BklynBmr
The Cleveland TV announcers have some depth perception issues. Anything in the air sounds like it's going out...
2006-07-05 16:28:48
28.   randym77
They look like they're going out. Or at least going farther than they do. They've got headwinds tonight or something.

And the much-maligned bottom of the order draws first blood. Yeah, Andy! Yeah, Melky!

2006-07-05 16:29:35
29.   BklynBmr
When did the Halo's DFA Jeff Weaver?
2006-07-05 16:30:59
30.   Marcus
29 Late last week. Don't get any ideas!
2006-07-05 16:35:16
31.   BklynBmr
30 LOL! Don't worry, the thought never entered my mind... thanks!
2006-07-05 16:35:33
32.   randym77
29 Tony Womack was also DFA'd last week.
2006-07-05 16:37:00
33.   Simone
That was Bernie?! Wow!
2006-07-05 16:39:31
34.   BklynBmr
The wind must be really blowin' in. Better keep the running game going...
2006-07-05 16:40:39
35.   randym77
WTF? Why's Bubba in for Damon?
2006-07-05 16:42:57
36.   BklynBmr
35 I don't think I want to know...
2006-07-05 16:50:45
37.   rbj
Soreness in an oblique muscle for Damon, according to the Indians' announcers.

Odd that I don't get the ESPN feed tonight, they're just showing ESPN News.

2006-07-05 16:51:59
38.   RIYank
Gameday says:

New York Yankees center fielder Johnny Damon left the game due to an injured chest.

2006-07-05 16:53:29
39.   randym77
Gak. I hope it's not a serious strain.
2006-07-05 16:54:30
40.   Marcus
38 I think that means Damon had a heart attack.
2006-07-05 16:55:36
41.   rbj
40 Either that or he ran into Dolly Parton.
2006-07-05 16:58:02
42.   Mattpat11
Apparently the Yankees really need Paul Byrd. So sez Kay.
2006-07-05 16:58:22
43.   BklynBmr
OK, Bernie! Gotta knock him in, Andy...
2006-07-05 17:00:16
44.   rbj
Nice bobble Boone.
2006-07-05 17:00:18
45.   Mattpat11
Who the hell is going to play CF for this team?
2006-07-05 17:00:26
46.   BklynBmr
That could have been a lot worse...
2006-07-05 17:01:18
47.   randym77
Awwww. Melky gets his first grand slam.
2006-07-05 17:01:18
48.   BklynBmr
Oh, yeeeeahhhh, MELKY!!!!!!
2006-07-05 17:01:25
49.   kdw
Melky!!!! Who says he doesn't hit for power?
2006-07-05 17:01:32
50.   RIYank
Sweet cream delivery by the Melkman!
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2006-07-05 17:01:35
51.   Simone
2006-07-05 17:01:38
52.   Mattpat11
2006-07-05 17:01:57
53.   rbj
Gee, is he worried that Aaron Guiel will take his job away?
2006-07-05 17:02:13
54.   BklynBmr
He took care of that milestone a lot quicker than Jeter did ;-)
2006-07-05 17:02:37
55.   kylepetterson
holy crap.
2006-07-05 17:03:21
56.   randym77
Boonie, you owe us these errors for the ones you committed in the 2003 postseason.
2006-07-05 17:04:50
57.   BklynBmr
Tampa up 4-1 on Boston, top 3...
2006-07-05 17:05:23
58.   Dimelo
56 He owes the Yanks a lifetime of errors after the 2003 postseason.
2006-07-05 17:07:02
59.   BklynBmr
There's our centerfielder! OK, maybe not...
2006-07-05 17:07:23
60.   randym77
Well, Bubba missed on the hit and run, but he gets Cairo home on the next pitch.
2006-07-05 17:07:47
61.   RIYank
Wow, Melky slam, Bubba RBI.
Sure, now I remember. We have an OF that gets a lot of RBIs. Yeah, I knew that in April, but I had this bad dream....
2006-07-05 17:08:27
62.   Dimelo
19 - 1 is starting to look like a pretty good score.
2006-07-05 17:08:55
63.   randym77
Just because Damon has soreness in his oblique muscle doesn't mean he'll be out as long as Pujols. They were careful to say it was "soreness" not a "strain." Sounds to me like it's not that serious.

I hope.

2006-07-05 17:09:20
64.   BklynBmr
Keep the line movin', Jason...
2006-07-05 17:10:08
65.   Simone
I say, 23-1. Payback would be nice.
2006-07-05 17:11:05
66.   BklynBmr
63 There no more room on the DL anyway. He's gonna have to play through it...
2006-07-05 17:12:15
67.   rbj
Alex is just stat-padding now.
2006-07-05 17:13:20
68.   Benjamin Kabak
63 I would have to believe that the Yanks are just being uber-cautious with Damon. He'll want to play through the pain anyway.

9-1 now. Sweet.

2006-07-05 17:13:23
69.   randym77
Yeah, Jorgie!!!!
2006-07-05 17:13:51
70.   kdw
Hey now, maybe there isn't anything wrong with a 9-run inning after all.
2006-07-05 17:13:51
71.   Coltre Hughes
2006-07-05 17:15:32
72.   BklynBmr
10 runs to go... C'mon Yanks!
2006-07-05 17:15:35
73.   Marcus
This Byrd has flown.
2006-07-05 17:16:21
74.   kylepetterson
did they really wait until he gave up 8 runs until they "visited" the mound?
2006-07-05 17:23:14
75.   Benjamin Kabak
It would be really great if Bubba Crosby wouldn't try to kill all of our other outfielders. Jeez. Lay off it, kid. The hustle's great, but calm down.
2006-07-05 17:23:17
76.   BklynBmr
There's Bubba mugging our corner OFs again...
2006-07-05 17:23:30
77.   Coltre Hughes
Why is Jonbenet on the billboard behind home plate?
2006-07-05 17:24:55
78.   BklynBmr
Oh! The kid can do it all!!! Funky catch, but he got it...
2006-07-05 17:25:00
79.   randym77
Melky's having a terrific night.
2006-07-05 17:29:55
80.   singledd
In the last 2 years in the majors, Guiel's numbers are 160 ABS, .800 OPS w 7/HRs. Not great, but better then Bernie and Bubba... and he's practically free. Now with Damon hurt, he might be an important move. I guess the question is if either Kevin can post an .800 OPS.

Steve Phillips? on ESPN has been talking about the ARod booing, which he thinks is sick. He ventured that ARod might NOT want to finish his career as a Yankee, and said that Yanks might consider letting him go, as the constant booing effects the whole team.

I don't know if that's true, but it is interesting for Phillips to speculate such. These assholes that boo might cost us the best all-around player in the game.

2006-07-05 17:29:59
81.   randym77
Wow. Jeter just missed that. Woulda been a hell of a catch if he made it.
2006-07-05 17:33:00
82.   Max
Wow, we actually got Hollandsworth out? I think over half his offensive highlights this season are against the Yankees.
2006-07-05 17:33:43
83.   randym77
Jeez, Moose really gave the OFers a workout in that inning. I think we need some insurance runs.
2006-07-05 17:34:14
84.   kdw
80 Was just thinking the same thing, that it's utterly ridiculous if the fans chase A-Rod, that's just crazy. Why, why, why won't people just let up and quit being such jerks?
2006-07-05 17:34:15
85.   Simone
Damon is injured again? It is like someone is sticking pins into dolls of Yankee players. This is just crazy.
2006-07-05 17:36:05
86.   singledd
Article: Manny to miss ASG... needs to rest his dreadlocks.
2006-07-05 17:39:20
87.   randym77
85 Hopefully, it's not too bad.

With Damon, you kind of have to expect these things. That's the reason the Sox let him walk; he's injury-prone.

2006-07-05 17:43:27
88.   Mattpat11
The Yankees better figure something out Re: CF, because Bubba will not cut it.
2006-07-05 17:48:52
89.   Simone
Carl Crawford just stole home on the Red Sox.
2006-07-05 17:50:05
90.   markp
Nothing cooler than a steal of home.
2006-07-05 17:54:19
91.   BklynBmr
89 Sweet. And Texas is all over Toronto so far, 5-1, bottom 3...
2006-07-05 17:56:51
92.   BklynBmr
No time to put it in cruise control, Yanks! Keep them baserunners, bloops and blasts comin'...
2006-07-05 17:58:09
93.   Zack
Anyone else see George's statement today:
"Brian Cashman is working hard to improve the team and the responsibility is totally in his hands,"

That kind of crap scares me: not only is the pressure on to "improve the team" asap, but also, the not so subtle hint of "make the playoffs or else." Sigh, good old George

2006-07-05 18:02:39
94.   randym77
Whoah. Wilson's warming?
2006-07-05 18:04:22
95.   Max
It's sick to still be worrying about a game after an 8 run inning, but I'm going to be sweating our pitching the next few innings (expecially without Villone). Doesn't really encourage me to see a pitcher like Betancourt mowing our lineup down.
2006-07-05 18:04:25
96.   yankaholic
93 if the king wants to threaten he will do so directly..

i think it was his way of acknowledging Cashman..

from quotes prior to his bday to Torre.. i think the King understands the injury role n i genuinely think he is patient..

2006-07-05 18:05:11
97.   singledd
Anyone know how many pitches Messina has thrown after 5? Can he go 7?
2006-07-05 18:07:31
98.   randym77
He was up to 74 after 5.
2006-07-05 18:08:06
99.   Cliff Corcoran
97 Messina has logginsed 78 after Hafner's AB in the sixth.

Kay says Wilson might take Chacon's start on Sunday.

2006-07-05 18:08:18
100.   kdw
He's at 78 after the hit by pitch.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2006-07-05 18:10:07
101.   yankaholic
Moose 52/3 82 pitches
2006-07-05 18:11:03
102.   Mattpat11
99 Messina? Last year maybe, but this year?


2006-07-05 18:11:08
103.   BklynBmr
93 The dreaded 'vote of confidence'. But The Boss is harder to read these days. In the 80's, that would have meant if we didn't catch Boston by the All-Star break, Ca$h was gone...

For the umpteenth time (and sorry to keep banging on this) but I would love to know exactly who in the organization poo-pooed the last minute Beltran offer before he signed with the Mutts...

2006-07-05 18:11:59
104.   Mattpat11
He should definitely go 7.
2006-07-05 18:12:28
105.   Max
That DP was huge. Moose is pitching gingerly today and is far from his best, but he's getting it far.
2006-07-05 18:15:31
106.   BklynBmr
Wow. Not Boone's night...
2006-07-05 18:15:32
107.   rbj
Thank you Aaron Booopsie.
2006-07-05 18:15:50
108.   randym77
Nice one, Boonie.

They're giving him the A-Rod treatment.

2006-07-05 18:21:16
109.   randym77
Well, I guess Wilson's not starting in Chacon's spot.
2006-07-05 18:22:32
110.   Max
When did Betancourt turn into Johan Santana? I know his stats at home are decent, but 3.1 innings, 1 hit, 5 strikeouts, and 29 pitches out of 41 for strikes is crazy, even against our offense.
2006-07-05 18:23:00
111.   Simone
Chris Wilson? Uh?! This is what the Yankees have sunk to.
2006-07-05 18:23:47
112.   RIYank
Sterling said it could be Villone (starting Sun.).
I like this move, getting Moose out early.

And I like A-Rod fielding like an All-Star, for that matter.

2006-07-05 18:24:29
113.   singledd
103 This is just my gut feeling, but I think they made a commitment to spend all they were gonna spend on pitching. Under normal circumstances, not a bad stance... but Beltran was an exception. You don't get a chance for a pure 5 tool player often, and I just think the Yanks were myoptic about pitching.
2006-07-05 18:25:10
114.   RIYank
And so far, I like Wilson!
2006-07-05 18:25:15
115.   Max
Way to go, Wilson!
2006-07-05 18:26:38
116.   BklynBmr
110 "Our offense"?
2006-07-05 18:27:10
117.   singledd
ESPN broadcasts are a lot more professional then Fox.
2006-07-05 18:27:41
118.   JeremyM
Wilson looked pretty sharp there, his curve had a lot of bite on it. As an Omahan and Yankee fan, I don't know whether to be proud or to cry that two guys who spent substantial time as Omaha Royals are now New York Yankees, and on the same day...
2006-07-05 18:28:08
119.   Cliff Corcoran
109 Dunno, this could work as a throw day. Nice curve from Wilson. He just kept dropping it in there, got the bottom of the order in order.
2006-07-05 18:30:28
120.   Marcus
113 Let's be clear that when you say "pitching" you mean 3-years of a 41-year old (at the time) Randy Johnson, 4 years of Carl Pavano, and 3 years of Jaret Wright. I know you're just pointing out their thinking, and you are completely correct about that, but context is everything. The Yanks made a pretty huge miscalculation about who the most valuable available players were.
2006-07-05 18:30:42
121.   randym77
Kay thinks Wilson could still start Sunday night.
2006-07-05 18:33:53
122.   rbj
Wow previous 5 Cleveland NY games, Yanks 5 for 42 w/ RISP. Tonight, 6 for 11 so far. As per the Cleveland announcers. One good game can (partially) hide some bad ones.
2006-07-05 18:34:59
123.   BklynBmr
113 I think you're right. I remember the quote about "even the Yankees have their (payroll) limit" and it was pitching, pitching, pitching. But again, with Bernie's days obviously numbered and no upcoming 'lock' in the minors, that was a curious decision...

Great teams are always strong up the middle, so how we could leave that one to chance is still beyond me...

2006-07-05 18:37:38
124.   randym77
We really haven't had much luck with pitching, despite all the money they spent on it.
2006-07-05 18:37:53
125.   JeremyM
123 Especially since Beltran was willing to take less to be a Yankee then the Mets offered. I like Damon a lot and I'm glad to have him, but the Beltran decision is definitely a strange one.
2006-07-05 18:38:57
126.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
123 per the great teams are strong up the middle . . .

That's why, unlike many of the handwringers among Yankee fans, I'm not that worried.

Sawx up the middle -- Ghost of Tek, AGon (worst ss in mlb?) Loretta, and Coco Chanel.

(Plus they've got bottom of the rotation problems at least as big as ours, and bullpen questions as well.)

2006-07-05 18:39:47
127.   Max
Great to have insurance runs and keep Wilson in there.

It would be nice if the D-Rays could pick some up too, if we're to gain a game tonight. Might be asking too much to expect D-Ray relief to protect a 3 run lead against the heart of the Red Sox order.

2006-07-05 18:41:07
128.   yankaholic
120 it is fair to say Beltran is a good player.. i donno whether he is a great player..

i wanted him.. but i liked what the Yanks did in that offseason..

no one expected this version of Johnson.. i think he was very good to great even the last year for Arizona..

so the dropoff was amazing and unexpected..

regarding Beltran.. we all should not forget what happened last year..

he had a terrible year.. and i think he is playing way out of his mind.. he will regress soon..

and for the 7 year.. he will be at 35 contract end.. exactly where we are at with Bernie.. i think they saw the patterns and wanted to hold off..

Money was a huge part too..

now.. given that age thinking.. i could not get the Damon signing..

but i dont really feel sorry for missing out on Beltran.. lets judge him after 4/5 yrs.. not 2 good months out of 1 and a quarter Met years..

2006-07-05 18:43:52
129.   RIYank
Well, it's a small n, but I'll say this for Wilson: he gets ahead in the count.

BoSox now have just two innings to get those three runs.

2006-07-05 18:45:46
130.   RIYank
So are there any lanky Panamanians warming up?
2006-07-05 18:47:12
131.   Max
120 What other pitchers were available? I'm not saying I liked what was done, but Pavano was coveted by a lot of teams, including the Sox and Tigers. Plus, my understanding was that Pavano and Wright were considered a move toward getting younger in the pitching staff.

All the moves look bad in retrospect, but what other available players were that much better? Clement? Milton? Hanging on to Javy or Lieber? I'm genuinely curious.

2006-07-05 18:47:13
132.   BklynBmr
126 Dunno if you can add the '06 BoSox to a list of 'great teams', but it's one we'll have to leapfrog nonetheless...

We had the chance to solidify a good part of "up the middle" for years to come — especially with the emergence of Cano, but passed on it.

I'm just thinking this year and beyond...

2006-07-05 18:49:07
133.   rsmith51
128 Johnny Damon will never have the potential of Beltran. I thought Beltran had the potential to have several .900+ OPS seasons(Bernie circa. 1995-2002). It seemed like such a no-brainer that I was shocked they didn't do it. I think they could have found enough pitching by adding him to the offense.
2006-07-05 18:49:49
134.   rsmith51
Mo is pitching in a blowout? Ineresting.
2006-07-05 18:49:51
135.   Marcus
128 You bring up a lot of good points. Although I think the offer the Yanks got was 6 years, $99M, so they would have avoided that definitely-overpaid 35-year old Beltran.

As for Randy Johnson and his cliff, he did pitch well in his last year in Arizona, but he was 40. Giving a 41 year old 3 years is not smart. They did it because that was the only way they could get him, and they did indeed need pitching very badly, but it was a fairly desparate move. There's probably no chance they make the playoffs last year if they hadn't made the move, with Randy pitching well down the stretch, but that's beside the point.

Anyway, back to the game. Sure, let's bring in Mo with an 8-run lead! Makes sense to me!

2006-07-05 18:52:16
136.   Cliff Corcoran
128 "i liked what the Yanks did in that offseason" -- You did? Really?

131 I prefered Clement to Pavano. So far, I wasn't wrong about that. I also suggested the Yanks hold on to Javy and Lieber, so yeah, pretty much. Vazquez, Leiber, Clement, Moose, Wang. Is that not better than what we have now? What if I told you we'd have Halsey around for trading/LOOGY/sixth starter and, oh yeah, Dioner Navarro.

2006-07-05 18:52:53
137.   Cliff Corcoran
134 Needs work, Sunday was a blowout, last two games were loses.
2006-07-05 18:52:55
138.   rsmith51
One thing to remember is that the Yanks pitching this year is much better partly due to replacing Bernie with Damon in CF. If the Yanks had Beltran in CF last year, the pitching would certainly be better just by virtue of having a good defensive CF.
2006-07-05 18:53:48
139.   Cliff Corcoran
137 Oh, and Sat was a loss as well.
2006-07-05 18:54:36
140.   rbj
134 Mo needs some work, plus the rest of the pen is worn out.

135 Clemens pitched well last year at what, 42? I always figured the 3d year was not going to happen. Pay for 3, get only two, but they would be fantastic two years. Sigh.

2006-07-05 18:55:17
141.   RIYank
Man. Why don't they bring in the outfield when Mo pitches, seriously? Esp. with a big lead.
2006-07-05 18:57:01
142.   randym77
Melky's gotta be POTG.
2006-07-05 18:57:58
143.   RIYank
Oh, nice ending, very nice.

And in Tampa Bay the Sox' big boys went down easy in the eighth, so it could be an easy ninth too.

And Jorge is saying on the postgame (radio) that Moose is fine.

2006-07-05 18:58:34
144.   randym77
Anything about Damon?
2006-07-05 18:59:49
145.   RIYank
Whoa, Craig Hansen strikes out the side.
2006-07-05 19:00:47
146.   Marcus
131 My point was that Beltran would have been a more valuable acquisition than either Pavano or Wright. They chose the pitching because there was a void, and you're right they went for the younger guys (avoiding a Wells comeback, thank God), which was smart on the surface. And I'll admit, this is about 95% hindsight talking. I wasn't screaming back then that the Yanks should avoid Pavano and Wright. But I wasn't cheering their arrival by any means either.

But the Yankees chose 2 injury-prone, likely to be average with the potential to be above average pitchers instead of an All-Star (dare I say, potential HOF) CF, when they needed to fill a hole in CF badly.

As to what they should have done to fill their pitching needs? I'll admit, there isn't an easy answer. Not trading for Randy Johnson would have made it easier financially. But there just wasn't much to work with. And it goes to show the organizational philosophy of developing/stockpiling pitching in your farm system while looking to free agency for hitters is a good one.

2006-07-05 19:02:31
147.   RIYank
144 Not yet. Should be Susyn's (sp?) clubhouse report shortly.

Melky is indeed PotG.

2006-07-05 19:03:13
148.   Dimelo
Why (today) ain't I reading the comments that Cashman, Torre and everybody that doesn't play in between the lines should be fired?


2006-07-05 19:10:06
149.   marc
TB beats sox and we gain a much needed game
2006-07-05 19:10:24
150.   RIYank
There, we've officially picked up a game on Boston.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2006-07-05 19:12:15
151.   randym77

And I think I saw the Yankees' favorite bat boy. The one who looks like Irabu and swept the dugout every inning last year. Until Randy Johnson told him to sit down and took the broom himself. :-D

2006-07-05 19:12:53
152.   rsmith51
Did Justice have to shave his goatee like the players?
2006-07-05 19:14:29
153.   militello
I predict Mussina starts on Sunday.
2006-07-05 19:15:20
154.   yankaholic
136 Cliff.. i wanted to say at that point..

i did not consider the personnel we lost..

i for one thought it was a lock Leiber would be back. and i was hoping Vazuqez would stay..

i donno about Halsey.. he is ok.. and navarro's star has fallen off..

if u want to look at the overall offseason.. guys lost vs guys added.. it was a lousy one..

but i was just speaking from the point of beltran v add pitching..

and i for one thought Pavano was going to be a solid 2/3 type pitcher..

we found out its not gonnab..

but right now.. Halsey n Vazquez n navarro

are not doing the Liriano/Nathan/Bosner thing to us..

2006-07-05 19:15:53
155.   singledd
123 Lets keep in mind our collapse, a lot of it pitching, in the 2004 PS. Steinbrenner was bound to 'fix' the Team with pitching, and have a better result in the 2005 PS.

Again, it was myoptic. Randy was for 2005, Beltran was for our future. It was a mistake, but the collapse to the Sox dictated our off-season mindset.

2006-07-05 19:19:09
156.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
148 primarily b/c Stormer -- most irritating poster. ever? -- only comes around when the Yanks are getting beat whine and wail.

132 I wasn't trying to say that Sawx are great or even good. Up the middle they're pretty darn poor, which is one of the reasons why I think we can leapfrog them, even without making any major moves.

136 Vazquez, Leiber, Clement?

Leiber 5.79 era .288 era against.

Clement, Sawx got a half a season out of him, now he's injured.

Vazquez, 5/15 era playing with a great defense behind him. Has been getting absoutely shelled of late. And it's only the first half of the season, and we know what he's like in the 2nd half.

I'm not even sure that trio is preferable to Wright/RJ/Pavano. At least Pavano and Wright had the good sense to get injured and not stink it up.

2006-07-05 19:20:41
157.   RIYank
(Susyn report from clubhouse)

With the win today Moose becomes the first pitcher in AL history to have double-digit wins in fifteen straight seasons. Joe gave him... something or other, I didn't catch it.

Damon: felt the oblique earlier today. It's more in the front. He felt it in bp. He won't play tomorrow, they'll evaluate tomorrow.

2006-07-05 19:22:28
158.   kdw
157 Torre gave him the line-up cards, both the one exchanged at the plate and the one that hung on the dug-out wall.
2006-07-05 19:23:16
159.   Dimelo
156 In Stormer's defense it wasn't only him/her yesterday. It was pretty bad here yesterday, like everyone's dog was run over by that big truck from the old Knight Rider show.
2006-07-05 19:23:30
160.   marc
TB is such a bizarre stadium it's laughable. I happen to be listening to the interview of Carl Crawford as POTG when the game ended and besides his straight steal of home Crawford made a big catch. So he's saying when the ball got up in roof or the cat walks or whatever he thought they would call it a HR but just in case they didn't, he stayed with it and when it fell back down he was able to catch it and they called it out. This is a damn 3 ring circus and not a ball park
2006-07-05 19:26:51
161.   RIYank
158 Ah, that's it, thanks.
160 So Crawford really flat-out stole home? I was wondering about that.
2006-07-05 19:29:33
162.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Btw. Tyler Clippard is really turning his season around at Trenton. He's been great his last 4 or 5 starts iirc, and yesterday he put up this Hughes-esque line of:

8.0 ip, 1 hit 0r 0er 2bb 11k's

2006-07-05 19:34:25
163.   kdw
So a lot of what Ozzie Guillen says I don't love but this I do:

Mo time: Mariano Rivera may not have the best statistics among the American League's four All-Star closers, but White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, who will run the AL team at next week's game in Pittsburgh, plans to use the Yankees closer if there is a save situation.

The other closers on the team are Boston's Jonathan Papelbon, Toronto's B.J. Ryan and Chicago's Bobby Jenks.

"Mariano Rivera is on the team, Mariano Rivera is my closer," Guillen said. "It's not Bobby Jenks. Mariano Rivera is a [likely] Hall of Famer and this is maybe his last All-Star Game. What this guy has done in baseball, he should be my closer."

2006-07-05 19:38:34
164.   marc
160 Yes, I think Crawford was just a straight steal of home. I just saw it for a second on ESPN but in his post-game interveiew he was saying that he had been watching the pitcher a few times and they told him in the dugout if he really thought he could make it then go for it. I'm not sure if he thought he'd get on 3rd or if he was talking to the 3rd base coach or whatever but it was a straight steal.
2006-07-05 19:47:02
165.   randym77
They just showed it on YES. Johnson took so long winding up they didn't have a chance to throw Crawford out.
2006-07-05 19:50:26
166.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
btw for those thinking of an imminent Mendoza sighting, his line from Columbus tonight -- 1 ip 5 h, 4 er. (iirc he's been stinking it up lately)
2006-07-05 19:55:20
167.   Max
Crawford's steal was a straight steal, and very impressive. Jason Johnson wasn't even pitching from the stretch, and he has a s-l-o-w delivery, so Crawford beat the pitch home very easily.

Final thought regarding off-season moves from 2004: it's obviously easy to say any move would have been better than signing Pavano, since he never showed much and then got hurt. But I'm mainly convinced by the arguments that fiscal restraint on pitching would have enabled moves in other areas and given us more bargaining chips.

I can't really say that having Vasquez/Lieber/Clement would have warmed my heart...all either injury prone or just prone to being lit up. I did want to resign Lieber, but settling for Vasquez and Clement would have been settling for substantial mediocrity. With RJ, there was at least the probability, however small, of stretches of greatness for a couple of seasons.

It's also easy to look in hindsight at how poorly these decisions turned out, and it is quite right to point out that the focus needs to be on developing pitching from within. But taking a snapshot of 2004, it was inconceivable that the Yankees would turn their backs on RJ and Pavano just wasn't the culture of the organization to show that kind of restraint.

2006-07-05 20:00:32
168.   randym77
Peter Abraham reports that Torre still hasn't decided if Wilson, Chacon, or Villone will pitch Sunday. Peter thinks it will likely be Villone.
2006-07-05 20:08:56
169.   nyctarheel87
I think this is where the A-Rod to the Cubs rumor originated. It is an excerpt from Barry Rozner of the Daily Herald:

"How about A-Rod?

Call me insane, as you do most every day, but why not Alex Rodriguez to the Cubs?

You could dump Aramis Ramirez, Jacque Jones and a reliever on the Yanks and get back a guy still in his prime to rebuild around at shortstop.

On the surface, it probably seems crazy, and maybe the Cubs would never take on that contract, but they've spent plenty of bad money over the years. And just in Ramirez, Jones and Ryan Dempster you would make up for A-Rod's salary, and that's money well spent for a change.

With Derrek Lee and A-Rod, you'd be on your way to having a legit infield again, offensively and defensively.

Not trying to start a rumor or even suggest anyone has had the conversation, and knowing the Cubs, they probably wouldn't dream of it.

Merely asking the question."

2006-07-05 20:39:49
170.   Dan-el

Johnny Damon expects to miss Thursday's game after leaving with a sore abdominal muscle tonight.
It was first reported as an oblique injury, but Damon said that wasn't right. He first felt a pain during pregame batting practice, and then while taking a swing in the on-deck circle before his first at-bat. "At first I thought it could be a small, little hernia," he said. "I'll try to be back as soon as I can." Bubba Crosby or Bernie Williams will start in center tomorrow. Jul. 5 - 11:30 pm et

Encouraging then that it appears NOT to be an oblique injury.

2006-07-05 20:41:54
171.   BklynBmr
155 Yeah, few here could argue at most of the pitching moves at the time they happened. Vasquez had a perceived upside over Pettite — younger, cheaper, injury free, coming off a good year, etc. On paper, Contreras looked like another deft signing of a battle-tested Cuban superstar — which unfortunately he's showing now in The Windy City. Most Yankee diehards I know were jazzed about Pavano — but who knew? Wright was a gamble from the start.

Letting Lieber go was a big mistake, too. After investing 2 years of rehab, a solid season in pinstripes then to bail after a $2M difference of opinion on his value made little sense.

The Unit should have been here in '04, but we would have lost Cano if the D'Backs hadn't guessed wrong. If that deal went down, it was Johnson starting game 7 of the ALCS, not Kevin Brown. The only upside to that is now we have an All-Star secondbaseman for years to come, but I would have taken the ring. We had all the horses that year, except for the pitching.

Apologies for the ramble, but all said the Yanks made solid moves to deliver a fearsome offense and just guessed wrong on the pitching on most counts.

Monday morning quarterbacking on all of this is easy, but jeez, when you have to do it real time and guess that Hughes will not deliver what a D-Train or Zito will/could for the Yanks, or visa-versa, that's tough.

With few exceptions, with what we had to work with and who was available at the time, I can't fault most of these moves. You get your David Justices' and you get your Ed Whitsons'...

2006-07-05 20:46:42
172.   randym77
170 Damon should be shut down through the All-Star break. Better safe than sorry.

Bernie in CF? Is Guiel strictly a RFer, then?

2006-07-05 21:10:34
173.   BklynBmr
172 Bubba over Bernie in CF only if he'll sign a waiver not to assault other outfielders...
2006-07-05 21:13:40
174.   BklynBmr
9-3 Texas over the Jays. Except for the Damon news, good night all around for the Bombers...
2006-07-05 21:19:05
175.   Yu-Hsing Chen
173 don't worry, Bernie's too slow to be hit... while Bubba will probably fall into pieces if he collide with short stocky Melky.
Consider that Bubba's bat pretty much is at rock bottom, he probably is due for a little bounce back so a few start should be alright.
2006-07-05 21:21:45
176.   BklynBmr
One more thing, then I'll shaddup:

Cardinals got Jeff (DFA) Weaver from the Halo's today for a minor league OF... and the Mutts called up Jose Lima.

Think there's a quick fix out there for anyone's pitching woes? Yeeesh!

2006-07-05 21:26:06
177.   randym77
173 LOL! Better include infielders, too. Last year he collided with Jeter, IIRC. Poor kid is just a little too eager. I know he wants playing time, but jeez, up by eight, with no more OFers on the bench...a little caution wouldn't be amiss.

I have a feeling it's going to be Bernie in CF, anyway. It's a southpaw on the mound, and Joe usually plays Bernie against lefties.

I assume Guiel will be in RF, but his numbers against lefties are pretty bad. Worse than Bubba's.

2006-07-05 21:29:16
178.   randym77
175 "Short, stocky Melky"? According to their baseball cards, Bubba and Melky are the same height, and Bubba's 20 pounds heavier.

Yeah, right...

2006-07-05 22:09:05
179.   Yu-Hsing Chen
178 o_O guess visual is always deceptive...
2006-07-06 03:17:16
180.   randym77
179 I have a feeling their "official" heights and weights aren't accurate. ;-)
2006-07-06 10:57:31
181.   Schteeve
I think it was Cano who Jeter leap frogged last season, not Bubbs. And there is no "t" in the word myopic.
2006-07-06 14:22:48
182.   randym77
181 Yeah, Cano and Jeter had some close encounters, too.

But Bubba did run into Jeter. Remember? It was along the 3rd base line. Jeter was running full tilt like he did with that "into the stands" play. He would have caught the ball except Bubba was running full tilt from RF. They collided at the wall. Bubba almost went into the stands. Jeter kind of pulled him back.

2006-07-06 14:23:41
183.   randym77
183 Arrgh. That's LF, of course. I'm only a little dyslexic. :-P

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