Baseball Toaster was unplugged on February 4, 2009.
Anything interesting going on this week for the Yanks? Ah, yes, baseball's version of the WWF returns to the Bronx. In-Your-Face Action! No, it's not Madden 2006, it's the most over-hyped rivalry in professional sports. But even with the customary hoopla, there are three fun pitching match-ups to be had in Boston's first trip to the Stadium this year, starting tonight with Randy Johnson vs. Josh Beckett. Cliff will be round a bit later with a thorough series preview. On a softer note, erstwhile Red Sox ace Pedro Martinez is featured on the front page of the New York Times this morning as a gardner of all things. When he was with Boston, I feared and loathed Martinez. He was an easy villian. But I have to say, in spite of his faults, I can't continue to hate the guy--I'm a sucker for his charm, his sense of humor and his sense of theater. This article accentuates the sensitive side of Pedro.
Plus, one of the things about the 98-04 Yanks that makes me most proud is how they faired against Martinez. They didn't dominate him, of course, but he didn't own them either.
But I love to watch him pitch. And he brings a lot of life--not to mention fans--out to Shea each time he takes the mound.
I'll never like Schilling, I wouldn't shed any tears if his arm detached from his body. Schilling just doesn't strike me as a good person.
He is a bit of clown and is, thankfully, not our problem. But as talented as he is, he is a disaster waiting to happen. And as someone who doesn't hate the Mets (in fact, I have a lot of friends who are Mets fans), I can't help but think that he will break their hearts one day soon.
I ask my Mets fans, is Pedro worth it all? I mean, with every pitch he throws and every trip to the mound, as a Mets fan you have to watch with dread. Pedro is the key to the Mets postseason hopes. That kind of pressure on a pitcher who is about to fall apart would drive me absolutely crazy with worry as a fan. I don't know if I would ever be able to enjoy any of his starts.
Regarding yesterday's thread - Bonds' agent says he returns next year as a DH.
http://tinyurl.com/eqaog
Unless that Mitchell conspiracy kicks in. Bonds would be leaving a ton of money on the table to walk away. If he hits 25-30 homers he's an immediate box office draw and can help your ballclub - two years at 25mil is about right. Unless you really want a conspiracy theory - the comissioner pays him that to walk out of history.
Also, I liked it when we were his Daddy.
Hey, what's wrong with gardening?
I've thought for a while that Bonds would fit nicely with the Angels. Arte gets a bona-fide LH power bat and gets a jab in at the Dodgers in the meantime. Plus he has the $ to burn. I DO NOT want him in pinstripes. Please do not make me root for that pompous jerk.
In the macho-jock culture of sports, though, I bet the clubhouse opinion (and jock-fan-on-the-street-opinion) on gardening is different from mine. That's one of the reasons why I respect Pedro for doing the interview.
12 I don't think Bonds would be willing to deal with the NY media circus. The Angels sound like a good bet to me.
But he's not doing any tip-toeing any more.
So what's happening tonite? An actual pitcher's duel, or will Beckett and Johnson both be knocked out in the 4th inning to make way for the long-awaited Tavares-Farnsworth matchup?
Under those circumstances, we give Bernie a standing ovation.
That man helped you guys win a Serious and the response shows just how insecure Sox fans are. It's like 2004 never happened - they still carry all these feelings around with them. Not that I'm immune - I still have trouble being happy when Damon does somthing for us. But my god, you thank the man then root against him.
I lay the blame squarely on the Sox organization. How come Cabrera (in an Angels uni) got a tribute video and Damon didn't? Because they felt they got screwed by the latter and did the same in return. If they show that same reel of Damon highlights it shifts the whole crown reaction. They didn't and the result was just pathetic.
Bascially, Yankee-Sox games have become like NBA playoff games to me...Just tune in around hour Three and stick around for the last three innings. The games are always tense, and rarely over early.
Hey, this is for Sox fans. How has Lowell been playing so far? He's known as a stand-up guy. I've always liked him. Has he made the loss of Mueller any easier?
If you like doubles and good defense, he's doing pretty well. So far he's not the albatross many people predicted.
You would think that 2 years removed from your first WS in 86 years, you'd take a break from all the negativity and enjoy the game. But NOOOOO, you sepnd the entire spring harping on "how badly will the fans treat Damon" or "how will we react to Millar back in Fenway" or some other distructive way of looking at your team and your fans.
A player leaving your team for another is no excuse to stoop down to the lowest common denomination of behavior. RSN is so fixated on being the "wronged party" that they can't even enjoy the players that currently have in uniform. First it was Roger, than it was Boggs, then it was Damon, or whoever else has the temerity to actually leave your beloved team for another.
Once Damon signed with the Yanks, suddenly Sox fans are aware of his weak arm or his sometimes over-the-top comments...as if your eyes were blinded for 4 years but no, god bless, you can see.
What will happen if Schilling ever leaves for another team? Will RSN suddenly realize what a windbag he really is?
Some Yankee fans can actually accept Pedro in NYC, they've accepted Damon in pinstripes, and they didn't boo Cone or Wells or any other past player the way RSN enthusiastically boos their former stars.
Honestly RSN, it's pretty pathetic!
I'll get off my soapbox now...
An interesting test on our side would be Clemens this year in a Sox uni. Of course, the Yankee organization should put together some highlight video to prevent it from getting just as silly as Damon, but if Roger goes there, Cash and Stein will be mighty burned in the process.
Then again, I never felt great about Clemens in pinstripes either. But I'm not sure if I'd boo him either. Weird scenario.
rumor is he'll be the starting RF tonight.
of course that's good news/bad news since it means sheff will take a seat for a while. I have a lot of confidence in Cabrera and just hope he can recover from that night at Fenway and show everyone what he can do.
And where was Mike Myers' montage at Fenway last week? Everybody should get one!
Damon was cheered & treated pretty darn well while he was a Red Sox. I was very grateful for what he did while he was in Boston. But now he's not here, so while I wish him no ill will, I'm not cheering for him -- he's got NY fans for that now. (Were pissed off KC and Oakland fans cheering him the past few years?) I see no problem with that. I'll concentrate on the current players.
BTW, what about how Cleveland treats Manny? He left years ago and still gets booed there pretty consistently...and I wouldn't expect Indians fans to "forgive and forget."
(OK, I guess I need to go relax in the garden for a while...)
I did the same for Mike Stanley in the late-90s. (I wish the Yanks had never let him go in the first place.) And I would have treated any other former Yankee the same way.
I remember what the Boston fans did to Clemens in Game 3 of the '99 ALCS. I will never forget the way Boston was the night before that game, and then after immediately after it. It was terrible.
But let's remember also that one of Damon's most memorable achievements for the Sox was the grand slam he hit in Game 7 that all but put the Yankeesz away. In comparison, Wells' final appearance for the Yanks was when he spit the bit against the Marlins in Game 5 of the 2003 WS. If anything, Wells SHOULD have gotten a colder reaction that Damon did.
But then again, we're talking about a fanbase that made Clemens' kids cry at the 1999 ALCS game against the Sox.
The only difference I can imagine is whether it's personal (Schilling/Damon) or impersonal (booing. . . say Wily Mo Pena or hypothetically John Flaherty)
Wells of course, through his own big mouth, poisoned the well before he ever got back to the Bronx. He was one hell of a pitcher but he's a much bigger jackass. Additionally, the Yankees had won a couple of Series during that 86 year period, you may have heard about that. The scenarios really aren't all that similar.
With all the wailing and gnashing of teeth performed by RSN over the years about the World Series the class thing to do might have been to welcome JD back with applause then cheer like hell when he struck out. Yet, why the hell should anyone expect RSN to act with class or understand when the subject is brought up? Now I will say that, other than the tragic deaths we have encountered within the Yankees organization, the lowest Yankee moment for me came when Derek Jeter was booed a couple of seasons ago at the Stadium. We're not immune from the stupidity. However, unlike RSN our symptoms seem more acute than chronic.
If Clemens makes the mistake of signing with Boston I hope and trust that the Yankees' organization will do all it can to welcome him back to the Stadium with open arms and in gratitude for the great things he did here. If it happens I hope Yankee fans will cheer him when he takes the mound and cheer just as loudly when we smack him around but good. When he's pulled in the bottom of the third I know he'll get a standing ovation.
A player leaving your team for another is no excuse to stoop down to the lowest common denomination of behavior. RSN is so fixated on being the "wronged party" that they can't even enjoy the players that currently have in uniform. First it was Roger, than it was Boggs, then it was Damon, or whoever else has the temerity to actually leave your beloved team for another.
Once Damon signed with the Yanks, suddenly Sox fans are aware of his weak arm or his sometimes over-the-top comments...as if your eyes were blinded for 4 years but no, god bless, you can see.//
first of all, you need to be careful who you're defining as "you". if by "you" you mean me, since your comment was addressed to me, then you couldn't be more wrong about what you're saying here.
if "you" means red sox fans in general, i still think you're wrong, or at least conveniently overlooking the many, many, MANY people on the yankees / NY side who were "harping on how RSN would receive johnny."
it should also be noted that were the tables turned, the fact that we're still discussing this would be grounds for yanks fans to trot out the old "you're obsessed with us" claim.
//Without getting into symantics and what the definitions of "booing" is, Wells got a smattering of boos on his first appearance back but NOTHING close to the greeting that Damon received from Red Sox Nation. In the end, Wells got a positive response from the Yankee fans.//
this is not AT ALL what i remember.
the reaction in boston, at least the first time, was mixed as well--when damon tipped his hat, the cheers got louder. mike myers also received a standing ovation.
ultimately, though, this "ingratitude" thing strikes me as some real condescension on the part of yanks fans, and i for one am not surprised at all that it has rubbed sox fans the wrong way. i don't think yankees fans appreciate being told how to be fans by people in RSN, so it makes me wonder where they get off commanding sox fans to behave a certain way and being pissed when they don't.
not that i expect any of you to even see the points i'm trying to make here--it's all going to be turned around into generalizations about me and sox fans and the many ways WE'RE wrong, as usual. i wish one of these times you guys would think about how YOU are coming across rather than the criticisms, warranted or unwarranted, you're so enthusiastic to make about "all" Sox fans. Though i doubt it will ever happen, i guess in this instance i felt the need to say something.
rather than tell us all what it's like to be a member of RSN or a mets fan why don't you stick to something you know - soap boxes -
I see the contrast in sophistication when I attend games at Comerica Park. The Tiger fans boo A-Rod (okay, I guess it's the salary). They boo Jeter (a Michigan boy who is certainly good for the game). They booed Tony Clark when he returned in a Yankee uniform (he was an all-star as a Tiger, and he parted on good terms). On the other hand, they neglected to let Pudge have it when he was carrying around a .295 OBP and making ridiculous, bitter remarks to the media (trashing his teamates and manager while declaring "I don't do walks").
Last summer, I took my kids to a pitchers duel between Chien-Ming Wang and Nate Robertson. As Robertson walked off the field in the middle of the 9th trailing 1-0, the stadium rose in applause. I presume that this applause had two purposes: (a) to show support for the Tiger offense in their futile attempt to tie the came against Mariano Rivera (who was walking in from the bullpen) and (b) to show appreciation for a tremendous, hard-luck pitching performance by Robertson. This second reason transcended partisan lines, so I rose to my feet and joined the applause, and I instructed my 11-year old son to do the same.
They could have done ALOT to steer the reaction with a tribute on their part. But they felt screwed and they said screw you. It's true that the fans expressed themselves, but the moment could have been much more different if they took a minute, as an organzation, to thank him. The fans would have followed along and then rooted against him and that moment would have come off much better than it did. Instead, it just seemed nasty and spiteful - some fans cheered but overall it was bad.
While I hope the Yankee organization would be better in my now hypothetical Clemens scenario, Cash and Stein are people too and will be mighty pissed if he goes to Boston. I personally don't expect much from the organization under that scenario. They gave the guy a great send-off - to come back with the Sox would be a huge slap in the face. I would be mad - but I'm not sure I would boo the guy - an interesting situation that hopefully doesn't come to pass.
While my momma always told me never to generalize, I can't help but look at the repeated actions of a collective fanbase and come away with certain conclusions. Over the years, I've watched RSN act in such ways that have simply left me scratching my head and dumbfounded.
Look, I have been to Fenway Park, have visited Boston countless times, and have quite a few friends/acquaintances that are Sox fans. And, as a whole, the Nation is a collection of pathelogically backwards fans.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again...Sox fans are taught to hate the Yanks first and love their Sox second. And, in their view, being a Sox fan is not a choice but a right..and anyone, any player who turns their backs on the team or spurns this "honor" to wear the crimson hose is due all the scorn and negativity that Sox can throw on them.
Case in point: The Lowell minor league team who offered to replace all the Yankee uniforms with Sox unis from little league teams around New England because being a Yankee was TRAUMATIC for the kids. Traumatic? Are you kidding me? Kids in NE are traumatized because they have to wear pinstripes? blech!
You'd have thought that finally winning the big one would have mellowed RSN out a bit.
Besides not remembering what Damon did for that team/city/region, Sox fans also choose to rain down all that venom on Arod, a man who agreed to restructure his contract to join the Sox. He was willing to make a sacrafice for RSN and instead he's public enemy #Maybe if, finally, some players and journalists take the fanbase to task (as Millar and some beat writers did over the Damon greeting), then things will change.
Let me try a more mature response. As to your assesment of the mental state of the RSN, yes there is a certain psychosis that has not been cured with the 2004 WS triumph. Beyond that assessment your almost entirely off the mark because you see what you want to see as a part-time observer. Often times what you get to see and hear about RSN unless you try really hard to look past it is the attitude and the antics of a distinct minority of the self-flogging fan base.
I was born in 1968, fit the fairly typical profile of a diehard RS fan from the suburbs of Boston, though I've been living in NYC for 16 years. Many fans in my age bracket did not grow up with Yankee hatered in their blood - yeah Bucky "bleeping" Dent hurt - but the formative years of the current 30-40 year fan base didn't grow up hating the Yankees b/c the yankees weren't our tormenter. My most vivid memories were that Dave Stewart's A's owned Roger Clemens' Red Sox and of course 1986 got us believing in supernatural forces.
Many of us did develop a real animosity for the Yankees during there mid-late '90s run. A tremndous amount of jealousy of course stemmed from not being able to get passed the Yankees. Without going into details I can recount what seemed like every break going the Yankees way for 5 years! Not only against the Sox, but the Braves, Orioles, A's etc...this was only confirmation of the existence of supernatural forces.
On to the specifics...
Damon - put me in the category of fans that wished the reception at Fenway was better. A chance to show some emotional development as a fanbase, if you will. However, and this is important, it wasn't JD going to the Yankees that was the problem for JD - it was this quote -
"There's no way I can go play for the Yankees, but I know they're going to come after me hard. It's definitely not the most important thing to go out there for the top dollar, which the Yankees are going to offer me."
- in Boston the puritan work ethic runs so deep that the fans would take effort over results 9 out 10 times. That's why JD was som popular. But there is an obsession with the authenticity of there stars. For many fans JD went from an authentic hero to just another hypocritical phony...and that's what the resentment stems from among a minoirty of the fans.
Arod - other than being the face fo the enemy, RSN does not hate on Arod...he gets far worse shake and more venom as a phony among NYY fans than RSN
Clemens - Dan Duquette was an idiot of epic proportions, especially in the HR and PR arena. He and the Sox ownership at the time made a horrendous call and handled Roger's situation poorly. However, in Dan's defense only in hindsight does his judgement look as absurd as it does now -
Ownership/Mediots - Current ownership (with the exception of LL who has been gagged) has a much more productive relationship with its player than the Yawkee estate and its troika of GM's so I think its unfair to lump them altoghether. Boston is a small town media market and hence the mediots fight for headlines and sensationalistic stories at every opportunity - a phenomenon that simply doesn't exist in a NYC. But it didn't stop the Vacarro from suggesting that the Yanks drill big Papi tonight - very nice
My name is Croaky and I'm a Red Sox fan.
In all likelihood, I'll make a couple of posts tonight, lose the link to this site, and never talk to you again. However, if a couple of you post on my Sox-Yankees running diaries, I'll be sure to come back in the future for a battle of wits.
How can you hate Schilling?! Other than the fact that he is a huge Bush supporter and kind of pyscho-religious, he is a fantastic sports figure to have on any fan's favorite team. Consider the following:
1) When he was being courted and romanced by the Sox, he engaged the most die-hard fans (the Sons of Sam Horn message board) in hours and hours of discussion.
2) Partly as a result of those conversations and partly because he is a student of the history of baseball, Schilling deeply understands what Red Sox baseball means to its fans. You see that in all of his public comments and all of his actions.
3) The guy had his ankle soutered together so he could help his team win in its most dire time of need. This is like Forrest Gump saving Lieutenant Dan after being shot in the buttocks. He's injured, but risks further bodily harm for his team.
4) He's a veteran and helps set the tone in the clubhouse. Works incredibly hard and shows the young guys what it takes to win.
By the way, my link didn't seem to go through on the last comment. Here it is again:
http://www.intergalacticjester.com/2006/05/red-sox-yankees-running-diary-ii.html
Justsayin did a pretty good job rebutting your comments, but I'll back him up.
Let me begin by saying, "please tell me you're not a lawyer." I say this because you apparently have no ability to form a coherant argument or use any facts to make your point. Pretty much everything you said was a wild guess about Red Sox Nation.
All any Red Sox or Yankees fan has to understand about booing, "Yankees Suck" chants, Johnny Damon breaking our hearts, etc. is that we are fortunate enough to root for teams with a real rival. The Sox World Series win in '04 only cemented our relationship as rivals because we finally one-upped the team that ALWAYS beat us.
Neither side can claim the high moral ground when it comes to "class." We both are pretty verbally abusive in our respective stadiums and respective bars. There's nothing wrong with that. Embrace the passion. Better than rooting for the Devil Rays or something.
Having a rival rules. That's the main crux of what people like "unpopster" don't understand. It's not that Sox fans put Yankee hating "above" rooting for our own team, per se. Rooting for our own team and rooting against our rivals are intertwined. You can't have one without the other.
You can't be pro-God AND pro-Devil at the same time. You can't even be ambiguous about the Devil. You have to be anti-Devil if you're pro-God. That's the way diametric relationships work.
It works in reverse, too, of course. Yankees fans are pro-Devil and anti-God.
It's just the way it is, folks.
I take umbrage with the idea that the Yanks and Sux are somehow rivals. If by 'rivals' you mean a hammer and a nail are rivals, then perhaps. Yeah, even once in a while the hammer misses the nail and hits your thumb. Score that ONE for the nail. The rest of the time the hammer pounds that silly nail until little is left except for the head.
See, this analogy is Yankees - Red Sox. The score that matters is:
26-6.
In the last ten years it's:
4-1.
Those numbers are all that matter. You're the silly little head trying to say "The nail matters! Without it there would be no need of a hammer!"
On that point, I grant you. Justify your existence as the foil for when the hammer misses. But over time, the same reality holds. How does it feel getting pounded for the rest of your life?
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