Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Help
Let's Play Two
2006-05-06 06:41
by Alex Belth

"If the guys behind me would have come in and it would have been smooth, nobody would have thought anything of it," [Mike] Mussina said. "You've got to believe those guys can come in and pitch, and they can. Today was the day when it was tough to get through that one inning." (New York Times)

Yeah, and if Woody had gone straight to the police, none of this would have ever happened...

The Yanks and Rangers played two games on Friday night in Arlington. The first saw Mike Mussina continue his stellar early-season pitching, while the offense patiently beat the bejesus out of the Rangers' pitching. Alex Rodriguez, dropped to fifth in the order, had two hits, a walk and three RBI--nothing like being back in Texas. The first game ended when Moose allowed a single to open the bottom of the eighth and was relieved by Aaron Small. Certainly Mussina could have continued to pitch, but with a huge lead, it didn't seem odd that he was pulled.

Then the second game began. The one where the Rangers rallied for six runs against the Bombers' bullpen in the same eighth inning. Aaron Small, then Kyle Farnsworth and Mariano Rivera were slapped around as the home team pulled to within 8-7. With a runner on first and one out in the ninth, Michael Young hit a hard ground ball to the hole between shortstop and third base. Derek Jeter moved to his right and made a nifty, mid-play adjustment, stabbing at the ball which had taken a late, high hop. There would be no chance to get Young at first; Jeter's only play was to second. As his body carried him out to left, Jeter spun and fired to second to nab Gary Matthews, Jr by a half a step. It was a fine play and most likely helped save the game for Rivera, who then retired the Rangers' slumping Mark Teixeira on a well-struck line drive to right to end it. (Rivera's location was off all night and he was hit relatively hard.)

In a Sports Illustrated poll released earlier this week, Jeter was voted by his fellow-players as the most overrated player in the game. I haven't mentioned it earlier because this doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know. Jeter makes a lot of money, and has had the good fortune to be the star player on a string of championship teams in New York. He is as over-exposed as a player can get. You could say he's overrated, but I think if you asked players who the most respected player in the game is, Jeter would find his way to the top of the list too, so you've got to take these things with a grain of salt.

I don't need to argue Jeter's case--his numbers speak for themselves: the man is a sure-fire Hall of Famer. One thing that I think is interesting is that in the same issue of SI, there is a piece on the Rangers' Michael Young, talking about what a stand-up guy he is, what an overachiever he's been. One of his teammates said that if Young played in New York he'd be bigger than Jeter. Now, I don't know about that, but Young is very much like Jeter--a hard-working gamer.

There is a little blurb in the Young article about the three great shortstops in the American League right now--Miguel Tejada, Michael Young and Derek Jeter. Ten years ago, Jeter was the weakest link in the Rodriguez-Nomar-Trio of great young shortstops. Nomar fell off that list due to injuries a few seasons back, and Rodriguez has shifted positions. But Jeter still remains. I'm not saying he's better than Tejada or Young, but he's right up there with them, and if either of those two players are still amongst the best in six, seven years, that'll be something too, wouldn't it?

Comments
2006-05-06 07:32:15
1.   murphy
it's insane how much more, offensively speaking, is expected of shortstops nowadays. i can remember that when my fantasy league started ten years ago (and we still have most of the same guys!), you had to scramble to grab a great SS early in the draft or you could expect precious little from that spot in your lineup. while i wouldn't say that there's exactly DEPTH in that position, it seems that the run on shortstops comes later and later every year.

ARod is no longer on the great SS in the game list by no fault of his own - and he would be at the tippity top if he were still in his rightful spot on the diamond, but like alex said, it's pretty incredible that jeter HAS to be mentioned in the top three seven years after he was part of the first big three.

mussina is the man right now. now if only we could get johnson firing on all cylinders...

2006-05-06 07:33:17
2.   wsporter
Cliff, precisely 9 percent of 470 MLB players polled by Sports Illustrated found Jeter to be "overrated", what ever the hell that means. That's 42.3 players who found him overrated (0.3 must be a DH). That's a pretty scant plurality. In fact that's a headline without much meaning. I'll tell you what was actually overrated – that insipid poll.

Without Jeter's play we don't win that game last night. Without Jeter we don't win a lot of what we have in the last 10 years. Overrated my ass, whatever the hell that means.

2006-05-06 07:35:11
3.   monkeypants
Great thoughts on Jeter, et al. A few years (maybe five?) when Neyer's column on ESPN was still free, he wrote a comparison of Jeter, Garciaparra, and Rodriguez. The article posed the quesion who would end up as the best SS, and surprise, Neyer basically predicted that Jeter would not. I wrote to Neyer and, believe it or not, predicted that 1] Nomar was too injury prone, and that 2] A-Rod would likely shift to third because of his size--leaving Jeter with the best chanceto have the best career at SS. I wil admit that someof my reasoning at the time was naive and basically wrong, but I am still proud of that prediction.

And now Jeter is considered the weak link of another AL trio. But does anyone actually look at the numbers? Tejada will be 30 y.o. this month (if he's only 30), and his career OPS is lower than Jeter's. He wins praise b/c of the power, but no one seems to notice the relatively low OBP. And Young--he's already 29 and has only three truly great seasons. It's a good bet that last year's .898 OPS in season 28 y.o. was the career peak.

Admitting Jeter's 'overratedness' (especially his lack of defense), what the Yankees have been fortunate to have is at worst the second or third best SS in the league for 11 years, with no sign of serious decline any time soon, while the contenders for best SS come and go. If they look up and can say the same thing after 15 or 16 years (when he passes 3000 hits), fortunate will they be.

2006-05-06 08:02:04
4.   jayd
The number guys do not have a number for field leadership, being in the right place at the right time, handling cut-off throws -- all the stuff that Tejada performs minimally and Young I don't know. Jeter is a nexus player, contributing in many ways to a win that may not show up in a boxscore. Number Nitwits will always consider him "overrated". As Yankee fans we know more because we watch the games.

Which reminds me, what the hell happened last night? 8 to 1, I did my job rooting for the right team and went to bed early. Somebody must have been thinking those negative Aaron Small thoughts again and jinxed the guy.

It's bad enough with Sturtze struggling and needing work, now we have two. At least Joe had the sense to throw him in with a big lead. Poor Smallie, with a track record shorter than Sturtze's, he may be on the fast track back to Columbus.

2006-05-06 08:25:58
5.   randym77
I don't think we can blame Small. There was something in the air or something. (Or as someone suggested last night, the bullpen thought the game was over and started pounding back the beers early. ;-) Farnsworth and even Mo didn't do any better that inning. It was just weird.

It was a fluke. It has to be. If our bullpen can't hold a seven-run lead, this is going to be a long season.

2006-05-06 08:37:15
6.   Cliff Corcoran
2 Check the byline, wsporter, this is Alex's post.
2006-05-06 08:40:12
7.   wsporter
Alex, Cliff you mean you're not the same person? Who knew?

Sorry. Ok, Alex?

2006-05-06 09:07:20
8.   Rob Gee
Jeter will go down as the greatest SS of his generation - a fifteen to 20 year stretch. The stats and the rings are what matter and looking back when he goes in the HOF in 2020 the same will be true. Everything else is secondary. Other folks (A-Rod being the exception) are put into the discussion because it makes an argument seem relevant. Unless Bobby Crosby is the real deal (read: yeah right).

BTW: Leiter had insight into how they do those polls. They don't just ask folks to list players. That would be much more valid. Instead, they give them a list of players and folks simply check folks off. Of course, Jeter, A-Rod, and Beltran were on that list.

2006-05-06 09:26:40
9.   murphy
since jeter has been the full-time yankee SS, he has played in an average of 151 games per season and has seen has OPS dip below .800 once (to .775). he has been the model of consistency. bobby crosby has already seen some significant time on the DL. we saw what happened to Nomar. i don't think being this solid for this long is an intangible. how many IF that came up around '96 are still around/producing?

(and what's that site that you can use to compare players using all sortsa weird parametetrs?)

2006-05-06 10:27:40
10.   BxSparksNYC
Alex, Just wanted to mention that I use that line all the time and people miss it - "If Woody had gone straight to the police, none of this would have ever happened..". It was a very funny episode of Woody Woodpecker and maybe knowing that is a sign of my age but just wanted to let you know, I'm feeling you on that one liner...:)
2006-05-06 10:30:56
11.   Patrick
Great thoughts Alex, wsporter, monkeypants, jayd, murphy - totally agree.

That's interesting as far as what Leiter said. I didn't realize that. I wonder how many people they list?

2006-05-06 15:49:35
12.   rsmith51
FWIW, Neyer has said that Jeter is a better SS defensively than Michael Young. Personally, I think Scotty Posednick is way overrated here in Chicago. They don't seem to understand that Thome has a LOT more to do with their offense performing well this year than having a top 5-10 lead off hitter who can steal some bases.
2006-05-06 18:59:13
13.   Murray
Is Podsednik even the most overrated player in Chicago? Kerry Wood and Juan Pierre have him beat nationally, I think.

Hoo boy, another Jeter "debate." I'm well past the point of caring what a bunch of people around the country who hate the Yankees think about Jeter. Jeter plays here, and we like him. That's good enough for me.

2006-05-08 18:35:48
14.   dpmurphy
jayd: "The number guys do not have a number for field leadership, being in the right place at the right time, handling cut-off throws -- all the stuff that Tejada performs minimally and Young I don't know. Jeter is a nexus player, contributing in many ways to a win that may not show up in a boxscore."

It's ignorant comments such as that one that leads people to hate jeter. It's not that he plays for the yankees, it's that his fans are almost robot like in their affection.

Jeter's stats are good enough to stand on their own. You don't have to resort to pie in the sky nonsense about things he does that 'only yankee fans would understand'. We have one time mccarver. We don't need a thousand more.

Jeter is, was and will be a great SS. You don't have to make crap up to support it.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.