Fingers crossed that DeSalvo gets a chance to stick at some point this year, though with the fragility of this pitching staff it's a very real possibility.

Twelve more days!

Cliff, that last bit made my night!

Of course, I still can't figure out why there even seems to be thoughts of Wang somehow not being the 4th starter, for that matter, the 3rd starter...

Cliff -

Probably not surprisingly, I disagree wholeheartedly that the Yanks couldn't trade Pavano this off-season. With cash from Cash (say 9mil @ 3/year) Pavano's price comes way down (7/year) and someone with pitching needs takes a flyer on him for a prospect. We were far from the only team after him in 2004, and with prices being where they are for SP, he still had significant value in this market, even if we had to swallow a good chunk of that contract.

Here's the problem with that logic: Pavano is a CASH-man guy, and Cash wasn't trading him regardless. The result: Whatever value Pavano had in the off-season is now dropping faster than Ed Whitson psyche in '86. Now you'd have to either give him away or eat a much larger chunk of his contract to get anything decent in return.

But from the beginning of the off-season, there was still decent value there and there was a good window to trade him. A NL club takes the bait. After that, his value was only going to drop as his injury history showed it wasn't just one year (i.e., what's happening) or he performed to his league average best.

The problem with all the DeSalvo hope (and I'm right there with you) is: After him, what's next? Nice work - CASH-man!

oy

Rob - Focus. Count to 100. Let's get some positive energy going here. I think you'd rather see the Yanks fail so you can put all the blame on CASH-man, rather than dealing with what we have. Trading Pavano would have yielded nothing in return. If Pavano had an OK year then we could have got something in return, but it's exactly what Cliff said last time we rehased this -- find a pitcher who was traded, where the team trading the pitcher got something of value in return, but the following factors existed: the pitcher had arm problems, pitched exactly 100 innings , has a history of arm/health problems and is owed 30 million on his contract?

Here's what the hardball times thinks about the Yankee off-season so far:
http://tinyurl.com/p8g7w

Two straight-forward questions:

In the last four months, did Meat gain or lose value?

(You know my answer, and I didn't see it going any other way)

After, answering that question, you can decide for yourselves when and if he could have been moved.

(See, I would have sucked it up, swallowed a big load of moolah, and shipped him out for whatever we could have gotten. Why? Because, those offers were only going to get worse)

I don't think the argument is that he had no value, it's how much value did he have and when did he have it. That's the essence of any trade (baseball, Wall Street, playground).

Meat is CASH-man's boy. Cash was going down with that ship. To do otherwise is to admit he made a big mistake. That's what good GM's do, and Cash is far from good.

And I would sooner wish death on my own family, than wish for the Yanks to lose. I just think they have a overpriced, and mediocre, GM. Now, it could be worse, but it could also be so much better.

And in a perfect world the Cliff test for pitcher-with-arm-trouble marketability, would be good. But two problems exist there:

1) The market value for starting pitchers is already inflated
2) Unless you want to do some corrections for today's dollars(which I don't), those history-based comparisons are moot.

Even still: Meat had significant value on the open market in 2004. One bad year can be explained away as an anomaly (which of course it wasn't). Two bad years is a pattern - a $40/mil dollar rapidly sinking pattern. The time to move him was this off-season - and for whatever you could get in return (see Rentaria, E.).

More hope on the DeSalvo front, from the Times:

"DeSalvo showed us something this spring," Torre said. "He's close."

Now let's hope that if DeSalvo does start that game, he pitches well, or he could enter the Sean Henn doghouse of doom. April 15th is a Sat night road game against the Twins, FYI.

BTW, anyone else see the highlight involving our old friend Alfonso Soriano? What an ugly situation. How much you want to bet he's wearing a Mets uniform before the week is out?

Rob,

I know you have strong feelings about Cashman and some of the decisions he's made. I don't always agree with them, but you have some support for your thoughts and I can appreciate that.

As far as Pavano goes, his value was higher during the offseason than it is now with the looming physical conditioning he's going to need to accomplish to be a part of the team. I think it's way too early to give up on him though. He's a popular whipping boy for all corners of Yankeedom, and I am equally guilty of taking cheap shots on him.

The thing is, I want him to succeed and you know there's some talent in there. If he comes back to win 12-15 games at the back end of the rotation won't you consider it a success. I know that we're paying him a lot of money to be a frontline starter, but we should count our blessings if he holds up and delivers a few good wins down the stretch. That's the optimist in me talking.

9 mike -

I really am right there with you in hope. But reality to me seems like a different beast.

But I also think that there's value in your line of reasoning - value that another team would also share (read: sucker).

My realistic hope now is that Meat comes back with something in May and June, so when we're looking for pieces to move for mid-season help, he's available. Of course, the problem there is again Cashman. If Meat comes back with anything, he's sucked right back in.

See, the real test of Cashman will come at mid-season. Does he move youth or slop?

BTW...

Check out my recap of the World Baseball Classic Final at:

www.canyonofheroes.blogspot.com

I enjoyed it. I know there are detractors, but I will try to actually attend in 2009. I like it that much. Congrats to Japan. I've been in the middle of jazzed people all day long here. The euphoria is tangible.

With regard to Rob's rant in 3, what's next is Darrell Rasner, then Sean Henn. The Yankees have a trio of capable triple-A starters ready to step into the rotation, DeSalvo's merely the best, though he's actually the least experienced (he has yet to throw a pitch in triple-A, while Rasner and Henn have both seen the majors, though with different results).

Beyond that, Rob, you have this odd habit of asking something to the effect of "after the third string guy, who's ready to start at this position tomorrow?" Implying that the lack of a fourth option is proof of Cashman's failings. That's an absurdly unrealistic standard. Even the best teams have a starter, a back-up (who is more often than not replacement level), maybe a triple-A player who could be an adequate fill in, maybe, and then whatever kid is trying to find himself at double-A who doesn't have a prayer of contributing at the big league level yet (think of when Jhonny Peralta filled in for Omar Vizquel in 2003 because the Indians were grasping at straws). Whenever a team has more qualified players than available positions it's considered a waste of resources and is usually remedied by a trade (Howard and Thome in Philly, Overbay and Fielder in Milwaukee, the Reds outfield of recent years). Counting Wright, Pavano and Small ahead of him, DeSalvo lines up as the Yankees' eighth starter (or fourth-string fifth starter).

12 Clifford -

Taken to the logical extreme, you're right, I'm an idiot.

Taken to the realistic extreme, I ask who's the idiot to expect to depend on Wright, Pavano, and Small as the fifth starter?

Indeed, we're only in this position because Wang and Chacon weren't in anyone's plans last spring. That lesson got us Damon, Villone, Myers, Stinnett, GOB - you down with it?

The LoHud Yankee blog had this yesterday - I'm assuming this info was given to him after the game.

"Jaret Wright's bad back isn't so bad after all and he could throw in the bullpen on Wednesday. Another crisis averted."

Why are we gettting conflicting reports on Wright's bad back?

Gee-Money, I have to agree with Cliff, there isn't enough analysis or foresight in CASH-man that will ever convince you that he's a good GM. Theo has an awful year last year: Clement, Renteria, Sawx bullpen, etc, etc. Theo gets Wily Mo and he's great, he's so clever, he's so unlike CASH-man, blah, blah. At least be consistent with your criticism and praise.

I've been reading this blog for a long time now, and I have to admit that Rob Gee is one of the most annoying commenters that I've seen here. We all occasional post something that's a little harsh or abrasive, but it's amazing that every single post that Rob Gee posts is more annoying then the previous. You get the feeling that no matter what the Yankees did this offseason, short of trading Womack for Pujols, would result in rants and raves about Cashman (NOT CASH-man) and how mediocre at best he is. Let's see how many times this preseason Rob Gee beats his dead horse(s). I'm all for a little good back-and-forth ('banter', if you will), but Rob Gee is just too much.

Regarding the sorry Soriano mess -
I remember reading somewhere a writer talking to Jeter, who was loosening up having a catch with Soriano. Jeter says "Watch this" and throws the ball maybe 6 inches above where Soriano could have caught it without jumping. Soriano ran back to pick up the ball, not even trying to catch it. Jeter says "It's the damnedest thing I've ever seen; Alphonso simply cannot jump, not even 3 inches." Might this have something to do with his committing professional suicide? Maybe he knows that he will look really, really bad. Worse than he looks showing up Frank Robinson. His lack of plate discipline drove me crazy at times when he was with the Yanks, but he never struck me as a stone schmuck. I hate to see it happen...

I feel for Soriano. And the Union will have to support him in this.

If the Nationals needed a left-fielder, they shouldn't have traded for a second-baseman.

14 D -

Whoa, talk about being inconsistent - in 5 you nail me for saying we could have gotten "nothing" for Meat. Now, you're saying I hate Cash-man.

You're wrong on both counts.

15 sabernar -

Fact is, there was a Cash lovefest going on here in December. I wasn't drinking that juice. Short of shaking and crying myself to sleep at night, I'll vent here. Going back and forth is indeed Banter. Sucking each other off is just inspired masturbation.

I had some simple expectations - no damn OPP. In CF, failed. In the bullpen - nope. Bench - uhhh?

Anything CASH-man did right? Phillips at 1B seems like a decent call, but it didn't mean he earned a non-competition slot (from my perspective). Not trading youth - that's good. But, I'll be more convinced if it's still around on Aug. 1st. Dotel seems like a good risk. Oh, and getting something for Woemack was also nice. Anything else, and I think your optimism has got the best of you.

That said, is any of this going to stop me from cheering like hell next to each and everyone of you? Uh, no.

17 I'm right with you. I can't even think of another comparison. Usually teams work this stuff out before trading for a guy. Why make the deal if you think you'll have to force someone to play somewhere?

Why should the union go to bat for Soriano? He's under contract and by every single metric is a putrid 2B. Bowden is an absolute moron and got completely fleeced on that trade, but that doesn't change Robbie's job- to take the players he is given and make them into the best possible team on the field. Soriano will get paid no matter what, but pouting like a five year old may just knock him off the radar of two or three teams this winter, putting downward pressure on the dollars he'll command. Players change positions all the time, and for good reasons.

He should just shut the hell up, concentrate on hitting line drives, not swinging at ankle pitches, and taking the extra base. That's where his value lies- speed and power, and the next team that signs him is going to do so in spite of his defense and position, not because of it. The sooner he gets that through his head, the better.

16, 17 - I feel for Soriano too. I think he and his advisors are looking to protect his big free agent payday. He's worth infinitely more money on the open market as a 2B than as a LF. Not that he couldn't go back to playing 2B next year . . . It could also be they're so worried about him butchering LF that he'll get typecast as a DH, and again, lose the big payday he'd get as a 2B.

This is all speculation on my part but I'm betting the free agent payday is part of the equation. Its really a sad situation.

Just wanted to set the record straight. I wouldn't want any of the banter folks sucking me off, or whatever the hell Rob said.

sabernar, though I don't agree with some Rob's rants....I don't think he's annoying, he's actually pretty funny and feels strongly about the Yanks. I'd hate to sound like i'm "sucking the guy off" but he's not that bad.

As far as Soriano goes, I feel bad for him too....what if the Nats wanted to move him to catcher? Why does he have to agree to play a position he's not comfortable with? The D.C. media is really dragging Soriano's name through the mud here. I hate the way people think Frank Robinson is some nice guy. His act is annoying, he's just a tool for Selig and Co. and in my book he's a straight up dick who thinks too highly of himself. As for the Nats GM, what a waste of human flesh. ...the worse part about Bowden is that he'll be plastered all over our television sets like Steve Phillips, hopefully the both of them can have some anal orgy with each other while they discuss what great GM's they actually were. I'm on Soriano's side....though I do agree that Soriano is an awful 2nd baseman.

Rob Gee,
Please look at contending teams and tell me which ones did NOT get any OPPs.
Especially last year.
OPPs is one way of trying to get what you want, even though you know you overpay.
You know ANY rich people that dont overpay for things they want?
The Yankees are the richest team in MLB.
Yes... as a ruling philosophy, building teams with OPPs doesn't work. But this doesn't mean you can't plug a few holes with OPPs every year (especially if you are the richest team in MLB).

Billy Bean does not get OPPs. Just the opposite, he goes for bank for the buck. But Billy Bean has not been in the PS 8 years in a row and has not won a WS.

Shaun P 21, the free agent payday is not part of the equation, it's all of the equation, I'm fairly certain Soriano has said so flat out. Sori should do what he's told, but the ultimate blame lies with Bowden.

22 D -

I feel wanted - how nice! - in a manly at-a-distance kind of way.

23 singledd -

I really do agree, OPP is a necessary evil. But...for some slots not most. This off-season it was most.

I can't argue much with what you say, Knuckles. To me, you've got it exactly right on what Soriano should do. But he's not, and I'm really curious why he's not.

Perhaps he does not want to play for the Nationals, and so is pushing the issue to force Bowden's hand to trade him somewhere else?

I feel the Union would have to back Soriano for same reason they wouldn't allow ARod to be traded to the Red Sox. They won't allow players to willingly diminish their value.

While Soriano might not be the ideal 2nd baseman, he's not unfit for the job. I think he's on the same footing as Jose Vidro.

He's in a tough spot, making unpopular decisions. Maybe someone should send him an advance copy of "STEPPING UP", to help him through this dark time.

Dimelo,
I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you here on Robinson. I don't think he's a tool, or one of Bud's boys. He keeps coming back to the team in spite of Selig and his ridiculous cronyism, not because of it. I don't think he's a dick, I think he's more of a hardass that feels (rightly so) that he's earned enough respect not to have to put up with immature crap from today's ballplayers.

Maybe he's a relic of a fading era, a guy who was put thru 10 times more sh1t than most players today, a bit out of place these days, but ask some of his players whether they'd trade playing for him for anyone else. There was a great article in (gasp!) ESPN Mag last summer that described the relationship between him and his team, and reforming troublemaker Jose Guillen in particular.

The real clowns in the Nats current 3 ring circus are Bowden, Selig, and increasingly, Soriano.

can we just place a moritorium on all posts related to: Cashman as a GM, the move she should have made, why every move the Sox make shows how bad he is, or anything else? We have been over this so many times this offseason and its the same arguemnts everytime, and when I see the thread turning that way I just stop reading, which is too bad. Nothing anyone says is going to change Rob Gee's mind, and he will continue to post the same arguments if people bite. Its been going on for 6 months now.

Let's focus on what we do have, and what we could have in our minors, sort of what this thread was from the start...

And oh yeah, man am I glad I didn't keep Sori as a keeper in my fantasy league, neither stadium looks good for his numbers, and his value as an outfielder really isn't good. Maybe that's where he is coming from, helping out all us fantasy dorks...

Just as an aside, isn't referring to him as "CASH-man" just as juvenile as people who say "Choke-rod," "Pay-Rod," "Musstinka," and the like? Can't we be beyond such idiocy?

Besides, singledd 23 got a concession out of Rob. He went from 18
I had some simple expectations - no damn OPP.

to 25
I really do agree, OPP is a necessary evil. But...for some slots not most.

He finally agreed that Cashman is allowed to spend cash.

Knuckles, point taken on Frank. Still don't like the guy. Be sure to go to the source of the Deadspin story dealing with the Soriano debacle the Nationals got themselves into:

Deadspin link: http://tinyurl.com/pkyk2

Defending Soriano: http://tinyurl.com/o8c6z

Frank played with a chip on his shoulder and now he despises anyone who does the same. What Frank did by inserting Soriano in the lineup was totally bullsh|t. How are you going to play someone like that? For Frank to go through with that little episode just proves to me he's willing to back Bowden's mess by using Soriano as his personal pawn. Frank shouldn't be involved in any of this. The GM and player have to figure this out. I hope Soriano sticks to his guns.

in re Soriano, I agree. He's a 2B and his value drops precipitously as a LF. To ask him to go out there in his walk year isn't looking out for his best interests. He's the only one who's willing to do that, which is often the case. He needs omebody who appreciates what he can do-slug over 500 with speed while playing an acceptable 2B-instead of what he can't.

29 Zack -

Whoa, six months - no. Maybe, four months. It really all started for me with the three year CF debacle and the easy dismissal of the CASH-man regime of Crazy Uncle MIL-ton as a viable option. Then that made me realize the impending debacle that is the Catcher position. That put the off-season moves in a clear perspective (OPP) and the only constant for all of these decisions was CASH-man. If I've changed just one mind regarding the quality of said CASH-man's job performance, then it was worth it. He's not horrible, just average - uninspired and lacking creativity. I'm just shocked I'm still arguing this point - people really think he's great?

By the way, Clifford obviously goaded me this morning and how could I not answer his question?:

"Don't hold your breath for Meat's return. Anyone still curious as to why the Yankees were unable to trade this guy this past winter?"

I still don't understand where he's coming from. If they were able to trade Woemack, they could have traded Meat. The question is: what was his value and when was it his value? My point all along was that value would only get worse with more injuries or continued league average performance. Why not unload him for whatever you can get? The reason is simple: He's Cash's guy.

Here's concession #2 just for you SSN 31: Sure I promise, no more CASH-man critiques until our season ends. That said, I reserve the right to criticize particular moves that are made or not made during the course of said season. But, if I fall off the bandwagon, you and Zack should call me out.

But I'm not sure I'll ever retire the CASH-man moniker, or OPP for that matter. They just summarize the facts all too well and much better than Choke-rod or Musstinka (?). That's a level I would never stoop to - that is junvenile.

Rob,

I thought OPP was a great moniker. This country still has free speech (for now anyway until it is taken away to "protect us"). So feel free to criticize Cashman. I had no trouble with having Milton Bradley or Coco Crisp being our CF. But I thought some criticism (regarding the lack of a backup catcher) was a tad unfair when comparing Cashman to other GMs. Every GM makes mistakes (even Beane).

Brian Cahsman is a good GM, probably top 10. If I had to rank GMs, my top three would be Atlanta, Oakland, Cleveland.

Soriano is there because of his bat first of all. Not sure where he gets off claiming some defensive high ground. Second of all, he's getting paid millions to play baseball, if the manager told him to go out and pitch, he should go out and pitch. I have no sympathy for him. He's clearly not a team player and I'm glad he's someone elses's headache.

35 SSN

It's amazing that in discussing baseball, some folks want me to shut the f up. That's fine - that's their opinion. But I'm not writing to make friends or make money - I'm writing mostly to vent and to maybe influence a few minds. If you're sick of my posts - simply move along.

The only real reason I care about the backup catcher slot is because of Jorge's trends. Two years ago - no problem. Now, he's becoming GOP before our eyes and there's no legit plan in place. Do we really have to wait until 2007 until a solution is found - and Jason Kendall at that? Plus, Jorge can be extended, or saved esp. for the post-season, if there's another suitable option to relieve him for 40-60 games. But I'll still cheer for Kelly to prove me wrong.

Ranking the GM's would be an interesting exercise just to see where a certain GM falls - at least in my own mind. I'll have to give it some thought. I think that certain GM is average. But maybe he's above average in terms of his current peers?

First off, congrats to Japan on winning the WBC! Props to Cuba and Korea for great a run. It was wonderfully entertaining competitive baseball played by quality players. These international players are much better than scouts or their critics gave them credit being.

Wright and Small both have injuries? Well, that isn't good.

Soriano is risking a lot of money if he plays left. Olney just pointed on ESPNews that he might lose as much as $30 million in his next and probably final big contract if he moved to left. I don't care if you are a thrillionaire that is a hell of a lot of money to give up. I certainly wouldn't do it to make up for the fact that Jim Bowden is a tool. I'd sit on the DQ list until they traded me.

If my manager asked me to do something I was not comfortable with then I wouldn't do it. And I think I'm a teamplayer and I'll do just about anything -- within reason. Does that make one selfish? I think not. Soriano thinks the Nats are being selfish in their request and not looking out for this best interest. Being a team player is a two way street. Why should he adhere to their request and sit-back and watch them as they use the "team" mantra as a way of manipulating the situation? I don't think that's fair. Even Jeter would balk at Torre asking him to pitch and everyone pretty much agrees that there isn't a greater team player than Jeter. They are all selfish, from Bowden to Soriano to Sori's agent, but to put all the blame strictly on Soriano then that is not justifiable in my book.

40

Indeed D - You know speaking of Jeter, for all of the platitiudes he gets for being a team player, when A-Rod came over he said all the right things but there was no way he was moving anywhere, even though he was (and is) the second-best SS on the team. Fact is, A-Rod made it moot because he's such an exceptional player and it approaching that level at 3B. Jeter was themnost selfish of all in that situation.

I still don't understand how you trade for someone thinking they'll change their mind. A rookie or prospect? Yes. A full-time ML'er? When does that happen? Just an all-around stupid move.

34 I feel like Womack's speed is enough to give him a Dave Roberts/pinch-runner niche. Given the crop of mediocre but healthy pitching, it seemed like Pavano didn't have a sustainable competitive advantage.

Honestly, because I wouldn't expect even a major league caliber prospect in return, I'd rather the Yankees try to get something out of Pavano. There's no sense in paying for a guy to be on the DL and then paying for the guy to be on the DL for another team if you don't get something.

Another thing that made the Womack trade work is Robinson Cano. I don't see the advantage in going to Jaret Wright. Though I'm a faithful believe in Small Ball. Secondary metrics are for Europeans.

Levy, I agree, at least, I think so. The thing is, Pavano can be a good if at least decent pitcher if he can get himself healthy. Is he worth as mucha s we are paying him, heck no? But who really is worth what baseball teams pay them. And who on the Yanks is worth what we pay them, but that is another matter. The point is, when healthy Pavano can help us. If he can't pitch at all this season, than yeah, drop him for a bag of balls, but its not like we are a) talking about Jaret Wright injury wise here, and b) talking about Wayne franklin ability wise...

Rob, I will keep you to that concession. Except that, the whole "moves not made" is rather broad, can we limit it to "when other teams make moves that Cashman should at least have considered in rob's mind?" :)

An interesting discussion so far, though I chuckled a bit at this nugget:

"I hate the way people think Frank Robinson is some nice guy."

Love him or hate him, has anyone, anywhere, EVER considered Frank Robinson a "nice guy"?

"Sucking each other off is just inspired masturbation."

I'll drink to that!

I have very little patience for people who try to stifle dissent. They call it "annoying" or "obtrusive." Good. Our forefathers were annoying and obtrusive as hell.

Cliff,

Wang did pitch today, just in a minor league game to keep him on schedule:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/baseball/mlb/san_francisco_giants/14152886.htm

Just clarifying as you were confused as to why it seemed like they were skipping his turn.

Zack, I agree that Pavano could be somewhat of a boon, IF healthy for two thirds or more of the season. Plus, nobody really knows for sure what Hot Carl could've yielded the Yanks in the offseason. Possibly Jeremy Reed, but, as far as I know, that was never confirmed.

At any rate, a mediocre pitcher - which is what Pavano essentially is - on the Yanks could be good for 12-15 wins. In this day and age, wouldn't a guy like that demand 10 mil or more on the open market anyway?

Still, I'd like to see the Yanks give the DeSalvos of this world primacy over the Pavanos. This would free up more cash and alleviate that whole OPP thing Mr. G's referring to.

Speaking of cash, does anyone else wish Michael Kay would stop saying that money will never be an issue with the Yankees? For cripes sakes, he's in the belly of the beast - he should know that the Yanks are working on the closest thing to a budget that they've had in years. Money isn't an issue for the Yanks? Well here's two words for you, Michael Kay: Carlos Beltran.

Probably my own fault for listening to anything that guy has to say.

Man, it gets echoey in here this time of night. Such is life of a Yankee fan on the West Coast.

brockdc I hear ya, time is all wacky out here...

Hell, yeah. Anytime you guys on the East Coast think life sucks, just remember our Yankee games start at FOUR. Guh. And Monday Night Football starts at SIX. So much for getting the guys together for some pizza and wings in front of the tube - nowadays I'm stuck in rush hour traffic until about halftime.

I just received my copy of Alex's "Stepping Up" via Amazon Japan and it's great. I've been on the couch reading for awhile now and I already feel like I have a great early portrait of Curt Flood and what made him who he is....excellent storytelling.

Plus, he gives the Bronx Banter gang a shout out in the "acknowledgments" section of the book. No, brother. Thank you.

All of you go out and pick up this book and support our main man. Cliff, you're next!

Mike, thanks for the info....I'll definitely look into getting "Stepping Up".