while i feel no particular afffinity for henn or proctor (though i still hope henn can get his act together), i hate this idea. pierre is not the answer - and you KNOW joe would bat him leadoff. that would make me cry.

Gammons was on ESPNews this morning talking about the As trading for Milton Bradley. The As already have a centerfielder. Why would they need Bradley? What game is Gammons playing here? Trying to stoke up the market for Bradley?

So we lost Uncle Tom to the Phillies. Oh well. Wish Gordon well with the Phillies, he's a stand-up guy. But I still love this old piece from the Brushback:

Tom Gordon Referred To As 'Uncle Tom' By Nephew
NEW YORK--Yankees reliever Tom Gordon was shocked and offended when his nephew Jason referred to him as "Uncle Tom" during a family dinner on Sunday. Gordon reprimanded young Jason and demanded an apology. "Apologize to me now, young man!" Gordon snapped to the confused 6-year-old. "That is a disrespectful term that brings back memories of slavery and discrimination. I don't know where you learned that, but I have a mind to wash your little mouth out with soap. Now apologize!"
"I'm sorry! I'm sorry!" cried Jason, his eyes welling up with tears. "I was just gonna ask you to pass the salt, Uncle Tom! Oh shit, I said it again!"

LOL Dimelo.
I think $18 mil for three years for Flash is a bit excessive. I could see $12/2 years, because that's what the market is these days, with the third year an option - $2 mil buyout.
The Pierre deal - meh. I can't get excited either way for it. Would Juan be better than Bubba?

I would think Jason Michaels would be a much better option than Pierre. Any idea how good defensively Michaels is? Unless the Yanks get rid of Womack, I don't see what value Pierre adds to the team. My preferences are:

1. Michaels
2. Glaus(Jeter to CF)
3. Platoon Bubba and Thompson
4. Get Hunter for Henn.

Klapisch has Farnsworth just about signed "On Thursday, Farnsworth agreed to the parameters of a three-year contract, according to a high-level AL executive." Klapisch is a real pro so he doesn't go unless he believes he has it. However unless "high-level AL executive" is code for Brian Cashman I'm still skeptical. Isn't it amazing that as soon as they get those monkeys from Tampa on the phone that same "high-level AL executive" reappears? I'm beginning to see a pattern.

Would that be Tori Hunter for Henn? Sean Henn? Even Up? Ok, I'm in.

What's the big stink about Pierre? I just checked his stats via the link Alex put up and they're not bad. He's no willie mays and he has some holes in his game, but he looks like a better option than Bubba. If the Yanks can win with Mickie Rivers, they can win with Pierre.

And another thing, the guys name is Juan D'vaughn Pierre. If that's not a crazy New York melting pot name I don't know what is. He looks like Willie McGee, one of my all time favorites. I would presume to say whether he's a good move or not, but I like quick, weak hitting cf's as a rule. It's a flaw, i know. I think i was Jason Tyner's #1 fan a few years back, poor bastard never could get it out of the infield.

Pre 2005 if you told the Yankees they could have had Pierre for Henn and Proctor they would have been on it like greased lightning. Given the way things stack up I think they ought to jump at this one now. He does remind me of Mic the Quick. Ok so he doesn't hold a little team meeting with himself in the batters box prior to every AB like Rivers did but you can't have everything.

Every time I see Juan Pierre, this runs through my mind...

[Introducing himself]
Willie Mays Hayes: Willie Mays Hayes. I hit like Mays, and I run like Hayes.

Lou Brown: You may run like Hayes. but you hit like shit.

I think his communication skills are better than Mick the Quick though. I still loved listening to Mick on Howard and when he was at Mickey Mantle's and being interviewed by ESPN's Cold Pizza when the Yanks were playing in Japan. They should give Mick his own show, I'd tune in to that train wreck. Mick can give all sorts of insight to Pierre's defensive skills. Imagine a YES booth with David Justice and Mick calling a game? ohh...to imagine...

When he speaks it's part Stenglese and part Chinese. Who the hell knows what the guy is talking about. We could use another man like that.

I just saw why Cub fans said that Farnsworth (aka Sperminator) has a two-cent head. Here are his credentials:
College: Abraham Baldwin Agricultural Col
Birthplace: Wichita, KS

He's a f'en cattle thumper and probably believes intelligent design supersedes anything that has to do with evolution. I see Kyle being a Chad Curtis type and going off on Jeter for not brawling and decking some player when the benches clear.

Is Abraham the unknown Baldwin brother?

By the way, as of this writing, Tony Womack is still on the roster.

And is there a chance we're going to bring back Ruben Sierra. Oh dear god...

My mouth is watering at the mere thought of Juan Pierre coming here for a couple of deadbeats.

Anyone remember the '03 Series? Our guys never got comfortable with Pierre out there.

Batting Pierre 9th would mean plenty of 1st to 3rds and scoring from 2nd on bloops.

But batting Pierre 2nd and Sheff 3rd. Forget it. Imagine the destruction with Gary Sheffield seeing nothing but fastballs.

I'm literally drooling.

Pierre is basically Tony Womack but not as old. Hee basically fills the same void that Womack does, except that he is a natural CF. Probelm being, we already have Tony Womack on the team! What use do we have for a light hitting, low obp guy leading off for this team, and at the cost of a pitching prospect? I'd much rather have Jeter lead off...

You drool over Juan Pierre?

How about sugar-free rice cake?

Do the Yanks get a 1st round draft pick for Gordon?

Zack makes a good point...

Isn't it nice to be able to reduce people to a convenient set cultural stereotypes? Although, given recent events I have to say that even if I were actually from Kansas I'd deny it if someone accused me of being from there. F'en cattle thumper"? Do you foresee a rash of mysterious and unexplainable cow tipping incidents occurring in the Bronx if Farnsworth is signed? "

Sad to see Gordon go. He gave us two great regular seasons and seemed like a good guy. I wish him well in philadelphia.

How about this for realistic fantasy.

Trade for Pierre, bat him 9th. Sign Nomar as your DH and utility infielder.

Jeter, Nomar, Sheffield, Arod, Giambi, Matsui, Posada, Cano, Pierre.

Um, yes please

Pierre=Womack???

Womack is 10 years older and has a career OBP 40 points lower. Pierre was down last year, but his career is .355. Not horrible for a lead-off hitter, pretty fabulous for a number 9 hitter.

The only knocks on Pierre. Minor - he gets caught stealing a little too often. Major - He is a horrible defensive outfielder, averaging -10 over the past three years. That's Manny territory.

Today, right this very moment, Bernie is as good a defensive center fielder as Pierre. Bernie is a better offensive player than Pierre.

If Pierre were a good defender, i would jump on the deal. The problem is that he's pretty bad in CF. BP rates him as worse than Bernie, and David Gassko's range shows him as only slightly better in 2004, and worse in 2005. If he combines his poor defense with another womack-like season, he is going to cost the Yanks a ton of runs, especially in the leadoff spot where we all know Torre will put him.

It's easy to reduce people to a convenient set of cultural stereotypes. First impressions are based off of what we know - historically, prior experiences and what we've read. The fact that our (potential) 'boy' is from Kansas makes it easy to make generalizations and stereotypes. Given that we've already heard a slew of nicknames from Chicagoans about Kyle makes it even easier. That said, do I see any cow tipping incidents….depends on what you classify as a cow and taking a quick drive down Fordham Road then that can lead anyone to confusion when trying to draw a distinction. Do I see Kyle being pissed at the amount of homosexuals and dealing with this great melting point called New York City? Probably not, probably yes, who really knows. I remember another pitcher from Atlanta, who was from a backassaward town in Georgia having a problem with New York and he was just visiting. He later went to Long Island but didn't like it there either. Is it OK to pigeon hole or classify both as the same type of being? Who the hell knows. All I know is that if-and-when he gets to the big city, he better know he's not in Kansas any longer and the 'Yellow Brick' roads are not really yellow but urine. So he better get used to it and he better know what the f- he's getting into. Let's just hope we don't get any Carl Everett quotes coming out of his mouth. We can all peacefully coexist as long as he understands his audience. That's all.

nycfan,

He really wasn't worse than Bernie in 2004 and 2005. He had much more time in center than did Bernie. But it is true that he was no better than Bernie. And Bernie is still the more valuable offensive player.

Dimelo,

Didn't the Yankees once have a guy in centerfield from Oklahoma? Isn't Oklahoma a lot like, say, Kansas? Other than making the mistake of hanging out with Billy Martin and Whitey Ford at places like the Copa and drinking himself into an early grave, didn't this guy from Oklahoma acquit himself fairly well as a ballplayer in the Bronx?

debris, I was simply saying that given Kyle's history and where he's from, he better know what he's getting himself into. The Mick did assimilate quite well, but those were different times back then. It's not about the drinking or the womanizing, as it mostly was back then. It's the number of mouthpieces he'll have at his disposal. Given that he got a degree from Farm Aid U, then it's easy to draw conclusions. That's all. For example, look at Keith Foulke and his 'Johnny from Burger King' comment and how that was taken and used against him in so many ways that he couldn't even show his face in Boston any longer this past year. I bet it was at that moment that he realized he wasn't in Oakland anymore. Kyle better know what he's saying and doing or else he won't last in this market, he'll be ripped worse than Weaver or Luis Polonia.

Dimelo,
I agree with you completely on Farnsworth. I think he'll wear out his welcome in NYC by Memorial Day. Does the name John Rocker ring a bell?

I take it you guys don't see Farnsworth as an Andy Griffith type hayseed who has to get over to The Grange and check out the price of corn before he slops the hogs and serves ice cream at the church social, who's in a terrible fright because he's worried he'll be late for his book club meeting? Well I'll be.

What I had in mind by cow is " a female of domestic cattle of the Genus Bos" sometimes referred to as Bovine. What did you have in mind? I hope Farnsworth is willing to be a little open minded or this could be really ugly. I wonder if he has visions of "West Side Story" running through his head. Rocker? Oh my sainted aunt.

Ouch! Put the claws away on poor Farnny. He's a mid-relief guy, not in the same situation/importance as Foulke. Plus he's been a Cubbie, not the same as Beantown or the Bronx but as close of a microscope as it gets to those two. I seem to remember Randy not having the greatest first impression either. All I am saying...is give Kyle a chance. Do you really think John Rocker is a valid representation of everyone from the South?
I'm not that sad to see Flash hit the road. He was going to get closer $ no matter what.

Mickey Rivers was and is a funny cat. He had such a gambling problem when he was with the Yanks that he was always asking for advances on his paycheck. One time, his wife was so steamed with him that she repeatedly rammed her car into his in the Yankee stadium parking lot.

And one of most famous lines came at the expense of Reggie Jackson. I think it was during spring training, 1978. The team was on a bus and guys were busting chops, with Sweet Lou is the middle of it all. When a delivery bus rolled past the bus, Reggie said something like, "There's Rivers in five years." To which Rivers mused [and I'm paraphrasing] , "Reginald Martinez Jackson...you've got a white first name, a Spanish middle name and a black last name. No wonder you are so fucked up."

Standup,

First, Farnsworth is going to get more than Gordon. The talk the other day was $17 over three years. Gordon got $18. With Gordon gone and Texas interested, Farnsworth will likely get $20. And don't forget, Texas has spent more money more foolishly than any team in baseball, including the Yankees. You don't want to be competing dollar for dollar with them.

The Rocker/Farnsworth connection had nothing to do with the south. Kansas is not the south, neither is Oklahoma. It was a loose screw connection, not a geographical one. Oil Can Boyd was a southerner and everyone knows just how stable and level-headed he was.

Alex, why shouldn't we bring that same kind of wacky fun back with Pierre? Juan Pierre, if that's not a Times Square moniker what is?

Reading all these commends about Farnsworth and his being from Kansas, etc. I'll chime in with two things. First, in the course of my travels I became quite good friends with a couple of typical southern guys (we're talking Auburn frat boys here) and they were some of the nicest, most intelligent people I met, even when we disagreed on things.

To add to the Mick, wasn't Maris from a small, midwestern town too? Didn't he hit a HR or two and win a couple of MVPs even while the media gave him a hard time?

Also, isn't DJ from a smallish town in Michigan?

I have no idea how Farnsworth will turn out (hell I don't even know if we'll sign him at this point), but I wouldn't read too much into these stereotypical things.

In regard to Womack:

Guiliani had all the homeless people in NYC secretly whacked, right? Guiliani and Steinbrenner are thick as theives. Steinbrenner could do without Womack...

now, I'm not suggesting we whack the guy, but couldn't he wake up in a dumpster in Trenton or something?

Re: Pierre,

From looking at the stats, Pierre seems to be a slightly better hitter than Bubba, higher OBP by a few points (though with Bubba PH a lot its hard to tell) and a higher OPS.

However, Bubba's got better fielding stats and range factor in CF than Pierre so I'd question how much of an upgrade he really is. Is it worth giving up a decent pitching prospect? What is the projection on Henn?

Maris could hit a baseball but he was never comfortable in NY. DJ was born in Jersey, moved to Michigan and comes from a diverse household (white mom and black dad). That comparison of DJ doesn't fit here.

Dimelo,

My only real point here is that assuming someone will behave in a certain way based purely on where they are from is really not a good idea. (Hey, Manny is from NYC ;) )

To drag the topic away from stereotypes and killing Tony Womack, I thought this article was interesting in regards to the Farnsworth negotiations:

http://tinyurl.com/9bwxy
(scroll toward the bottom)

Apparently Schuerholz holds somewhat of a grudge from the Sheffield deal, since the Yankees/Sheffield delayed the deal until after the arbitration deadline, the Yanks avoided passing on a draft pick to the Braves. Schuerholz smells a similar situation here.

The Yankees are getting a first round (or possibly first round supplemental?) draft pick from the Phillies for the Gordon signing. It would be nice to avoid losing one for Farnsworth.

now now, i specifically said not to kill him. just to let him know he's not welcome anymore.

as far as the "snag" goes, it seems like it might not hurt to spend a couple million extra in exchange for keeping our 1st rounder. obviously it's not a lock, but maybe a college outfielder would help in a few years when sheff and matsui are wanting to leave.

Nice point. The Yanks ahve no reason to forfeit the draft pick. It's not like they can't (or won't) match the $ if they desire. The Giants do that religiously...but then again, they are the Giants.

Then make Womack wear a "I got moved from the IF to the OF, then drugged and left for dead in NJ and all I got was this lousy T-shirt" all next season. That would be awesome.

The Marlins just traded Luis Castillo to the Twins for two pitchers according to ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2245065

re. post 41 and post 42. Anyone signing Farnsworth would still lose their first pick if the Braves offer arbitration to Farnsworth and he declines. The Red Sox offered arbitration to Lowe last year, knowing full well that he'd decline. The Sox got the Dodgers first pick last year and wound up with 5 of the first 60 picks in the 2005 draft.

Similarly, the Yanks now own the Phillies first pick for the signing of Gordon.

Does Castillo moving make it more or less likely that Pierre will be moved? Man does this look familiar. What a joke.

debris, then why do teams wait until arbitration is offered to sign players? I don't understand the rules, so I'm asking sincerely.

I just read that Stinnett was Johnson's personal catcher in Arizona. Johnson must not like pitching to Posada at all.

Nick,

I think they automatically lose a pick if they sign a player before a certain date(12/7, I think). That is how the Yanks get a pick from Gordon. I don't think the Yankees offered him arbitration or could until that date.

That's right rsmith51. Which brings up the interesting case of Matt Lawton, who was somehow deemed a Class "A" free agent. Therefore if he is signed before the 12/7 deadline (not likely at all), the yanks get a first round pick. If they offer him arbitration, my guess is he accepts it, with all the negative steroid-related issues and poor performance last year. So, even though he could mean a free first round pick by fluke of him getting the Class "A" designation, it doesn't look like the Yankees will get to take advantage of it.

Nick from WH

baseball.about.com/od/fantasybaseball/a/2005dates_2.htm - 26k

Here's a pretty conscience explanation of the rule and logic behind teams use of it.

Another great Mickey Rivers line at Reggie's expense: Reggie was in the clubhouse, bragging about his 160 IQ. Rivers asked, "Out of what, a thousand?"

I don't like the Farnsworth signing much - I hate the idea of overpaying for relievers after Mo - and yeah, he sounds like as worthy successor to Jeff Nelson in personality as well as stuff. But come on, he's from a city of 360,000 people, not some small town in the boonies.

The Yankees had two center fielders from Commerce, Oklahoma - Mantle and then Murcer. That was mining country, not farming.

If a team signs a Type A, B or C free agent before the deadline for offering arbitration, they have to give up compensation. It's assumed that the former team would have offered arbitration.

Let's just drop the whole "he's from such-and-such a city so he must be a XXX". There are jackasses from all sizes and types of cities and all walks of life and all different cultures. The good thing is that the same thing applies to wonderful people, too.

Hey guys,

Not for nothing but I've got an article up on CNN.SI.com. It's on free agency:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/12/02/landmark.freeagency/index.html

Check it out if and when you get a chance.

Thanks.

The primary reason for signing a player before the arbitration date is that if you don't, somebody else will. If the Yanks are holding off until after the 7th, IF, they run the risk that he'll sign elsewhere.

The Farnsworth case seems a no brainer. Atlanta is going to offer him arbitration and he'll turn it down. There's no way an arbitrator is going to award him more than he's going to get anyway in this ridiculous market.

In some cases there's a risk on the part of the team, in this case Atlanta, in that they'll wind up going to arbitration, losing, and finding themselves stuck with a player they may not want at a salary they may not want to pay. I can't see that happening here.

In the case of Derek Lowe last year, it is believed that the Red Sox and Lowe had agreed that they were going to offer and he was going to decline.

Sweeney Murti on WFAN is reporting the Farnsworth signing is official: 3 year +17 million

Way to go Alex, nice job. Its easy sometimes to forget about Andy Messersmith's circuitous route to the Bronx. It had a hint of sadness to it, you wonder what might have been had he not gotten hurt.

Love the Mick: "My goals are to hit .300, score 100 runs, and stay injury-prone."

Check this out: http://www.mickeyrivers.com/quotes_baseball.shtml

3 years at 17 million sounds like the numbers they were throwing around yesterday morning. I wonder what the conference call was all about. Did somebody blink or was something else on the agenda?

Alex, great read. keep it up man.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5131638

Appears they've signed Farnsworth

Didn't know if it was already mentioned but espn.com has the farnsworth deal done.

wow. 28 seconds.....

Alex, you've made it big time.....don't forget about us man. In the words of Kathy Bates in Misery, "we're your biggest fans".

Alex is also in The 2006 Hardball Times Almanac, alongsinde Bill James and other such luminaries. There's a lot of Alex Belth buzz going around this off-season. It's about time!

Dan: thanks for those Rivers quotes. When they made him they broke the mold. You know I can still see Rose standing 15 feet from the plate just daring the Quick to line one at him. In my dreams Mickey slaps one off that stupid mop cut coconut. In my dreams he does.

"By Alex Belth, Special to SI.com"

wow. Special, huh?

Congrats, man.

kyle,

Its clear my procastination level is .28 higher than yours ;)

see, I was just gonna blame it all on sources.

DAMN YOU ESPN!!!!

Alex,

Congratulations. A great achievement and keep up the excellent work.

Just found this site today. Very nice. Good discussion too. I appreciate not reading the usual idiotic ranting and curseouts from mental midgets! Have a good weekend all.

I think Henn and Proctor would be a decent deal for someone of Pierre's actual value, but it'd be a fantastic one for someone of Pierre's percieved value. If it were up to me, I'd either try to work out a three way deal now, or make the deal and work on flipping Pierre later.

For example, how about a three way deal wherein we send Henn and Proctor to Florida for Pierre, who we flip to the Angels for Darin Erstad and a catcher named Michael (either Napoli or Collins)?

Nice work, Alex. We're lucky that you post so frequently to this blog with all your other things going on, so thanks for that.

I caught this at the end of Rosenthal's article on the Castillo trade:

"Castillo will not be the last Marlin traded. Catcher Paul Lo Duca is drawing interest from the Diamondbacks and Rockies, while center fielder Juan Pierre is on the wish list of the Yankees, Cubs, Angels and several other clubs.

For Pierre, the Marlins likely would seek a prospect like third baseman Eric Duncan or right-hander Philip Hughes from the Yankees."

So it doesn't seem like George King's sources had the right idea with Henn and Proctor. I don't think Pierre is worth Hughes or Duncan. Rosenthal's been on top of everything so ar this off season, so I'm willing to trust him a little more.

Or, alternately, flip him for Milton Bradley straight up, or for David DeJesus and cash.

Of course, the Marlins want one of the Yankees' top prospect for a mediocre centerfielder. What else is new. I'm surprised they didn't ask for both Wang and Cano.

Congrats on the SI article, Alex. That deserved its own posting. Still not too late to put it up.

Alex, if possible, can you further explain the details of the 'Collusion 8"? I wasn't quite old enough to be paying attention to the scandal at the time. I'm not getting how players refusing to sign until after Jan 8 and showing up with blank contracts makes owners guilty of collusion. Thx

Nice to see Joe Torre's phone calls are still
working. Farnsworth quoted in AP story that "a
telephone call from Joe Torre was the big reason why he'll set up for Mariano Rivera,"
rather than other options.

Congrats on the SI article Alex.

I'm not sure why I have Mickey Rivers on the brain but here's his 1978 numbers vs. Pierre last year (both off years) and career numbers.

Off years
'78 Rivers .265/.302/.397 25 SB 5 CS
'05 Pierre .276/.326/.354 57 SB 17 CS

Career
Rivers .295/.327/.397
Pierre .305/.355/.375

I don't know about other Yankee fans but I LOVED Mickey Rivers when I was a kid. Rivers had more pop but Pierre is comparable today. Kids will love Pierre and he'll be more than serviceable in CF if the Yanks get him. I'll take Pierre in CF any day over Crosby. I say get him.

Rivers and Pierre aren't playing in the same era, so straight stat line comps aren't very useful.
The better comparison is era, league, and park adjusted OPS+. Rivers OPS+ is 20 points higher.
Farnsworth is a decent signing. A bit overpaid, but nothing to get excited about.

I'm with you joejoe. I'd like Pierre too. I think Markp makes a point. Yet, while the numbers often tell us a lot they don't tell us everything, sometimes you just have to watch the game. Pierre is a disrupter, a pain in the ass, same way Mick the Quick was. He'll drive you nuts. You worry about putting him on before he's even up. He screws your infield up. You pitch differently to a lineup when a guy like him is in it. Run all the regression lines you want you can't capture all the data, you can't plot the whole story. I'm not saying you have an R squared of zero but its not 1 either. Sometimes you just have to watch the damn game.

If we don't get Farnsworth who sets up Rivera? Tell you what I might have gotten a little excited if we didn't get Farnsworth only not in a good way.

Alex — great read on the SI piece! You earned the shot and delivered. You were doo, I tell ya, doo. Congrats!

3 - Thanks for the warning :)

45 - I think the Phils actually could have had two of these extra picks, one of them I am sure is from losing Wagner to NYM. The other one may have been some weird form of reward for Ugueth Urbina deciding all of his friends are Tony Womack!

Isn't Juan Pierre below average in fielding? His 'O' is decent, and he is a 'disruptor', but we need a solid-to-excellent glove in CF. That's more important then 'O', unless the guy is a Giles/slugger type. For great 'O', we can settle for average 'D'.

Pierre may be a LITTLE better then what we have, but not enough to trade away anybody worth anything.

I gotta say I'm impressed with the solid thinking/action of the FO. We have been very responsible and have not made any desperation moves. Money in the bank means a good signing mid-season... when someone we really want is avaible for the right terms.

Dimelo, looks like Farnsworth learned something worthwhile in Wichita and at "Farm Aid U" after all. I'd say this alone makes for a pretty good start. From Newsday: "When Farnsworth was in Tampa on Thursday to undergo his Yankees physical, he said the Rangers reached out to him for the first time, and they made a strong push. Farnsworth listened, but he kept his word, choosing the Yankees."

Now Florida wants Cano on a deal for Juan Pierre. Can you say get stuffed on the internet? Jeez why don't they ask for all of George's turtle necks while they're at it?

Call me crazy but I think I'd prefer Michaels if the Phils will part with him. Younger guy that has shown good stick and solid D when he's been in the game. I know Pierre is still young but that doesn't mean his best years may already be behind him. But then again, after working with Donnie most of last year, Bubba really came on in September. Either way, I like the Farnsworth signing. With Farnsworth, Small, Sturtze, Rivera, and a pitcher to be named, I like how the pen is coming along too!