This looked like another of those closely contested, back and forth games, with lots of tension and excitement...with the Astros going ahead, and then Oswalt doing a pretty damned good Mike Mussina imitation (untouchable for 4, total implosion in the 5th).

But even with the Stros tying it in the 8th, this game really seemed to drag in the late innings...about as tedious an extra-inning World Series affair as you could imagine, with the deep pitch counts and the endless parade of stranded baserunners.

I did enjoy the return of Duque's Houdini act in the ninth. Though I was rooting for the Astros to take one, when Duque was facing a first and third, one out situation after walking 2 batters and commiting an error, I couldn't help smiling. He's facing Taveras, a superb bunter and hot hitter, who needs to just make contact to end the game...and I just thought "Duque's got him".

Sure enough, he strikes Taveras out, walks Berkman, then strikes out Ensberg. It wasn't pretty at all, but cojones grandes, once again.

It was classic Duque - load up the bases and then get out of it unscathed.

It was funny hearing Joe Buck breathlessly describing how Duque had no control. "Watch and learn," I thought.

I love watching Duque get out of trouble the way he does. I always think of Posada when he would say that Duque needs to be mad to pitch and getting the bases loaded will make any pitcher mad.

Just read this at BDD:
"If you believe the scuttlebutt from the GMs at the World Series, Brian Cashman's prolonged negotiation with Yankees general partner Steve Swindal is directly related to Theo Epstein's holdout in Boston. 'They're pals,' said one GM, 'and I'm sure they're both holding out as long as they can, if nothing else, to give Theo additional leverage so he gets what he wants from the Red Sox. In any case, Brian's going to get his money.'" -- 10.26, Bill Madden, NY Daily News

Injuries and age might keep him from pitching more than 150 innings a year, but man, Duque sure knows how to succeed in those situations. First the show in the ALDS against Boston, now this. He's (at least) 40 years old, but he still gets guys out.

There's no better argument for ignoring how fast a guy can throw and instead looking at the results.

I know it may be a crazy idea, but given how well he pitched in Cuba and how well he's pitched in the postseason, couldn't you argue that Duque deserves a little Hall of Fame consideration? After all, it is called the "Baseball" HoF, not the "MLB" HoF. Obviously Duque's generally effective though otherwise so-so US regular season numbers work against him somewhat, but still . . .

I turned in after the 8th, and when a certain yowling baby woke me about 2:00 am, he and I went downstairs and I figured I'd check the score. And the game was still being played!! It was a surreal moment, staring at the little gameday thing in the middle of the night in a dark house, trying to understand what it could mean.

I can't get that excited about El Duque's performance last night. If Garner squeezes with Taveras in the bottom of the ninth, the Astros win in nine. Essentially, last night was Game 4 of the 2003 World Series (the Jeff Weaver Game) all over again. A squeeze bunt would have won it, but they didn't squeeze and they wound up losing when their worst pitcher couldn't post a zero and now they're going to lose the series.

And as for El Duque, I figured he'd be the difference in the game, because he could come in and act as a second starter, but he tweaked his neck and was out before getting through his second inning. Note that both Duque and Clemens have abandoned their teams in big spots in this series due to injuries. Clemens' Game 1 performance was worse than Wells' in Game 5 of '03 because Wells at least was effective for his one inning. Clemens put his team in a hole. Seeing those guys pull up lame makes seeing them in a World Series in black pinstripes much easier to take.

I'm with Cliff, I thought Duque was crap last night. He threw 28 pitches, only 8 for strikes. He threw two terrible pickoff attempts to 1st, one of which put the winning run on second. Then he falls asleep and lets Burke swipe third. So he strikes out Taveras, except that Taveras is a terrible hitter. Plus, Everett helped him out by swinging at the first pitch. For all the crap we've had to hear about the Yankees wishing they had those four pitchers back, last night put that into doubt, at least as far as ED is concerned.

On ESPN Radio this morning, Buster Olney agreed with a NYPost column (forgot who wrote it, sorry) of today that said the '05 White Sox remind him of the '98 Yankees. That pissed me off. Most of the discussion was based on talk about intangibles - and its probably true. But then they brought up performance, and this is what got me - they cherry-picked some stats to make the point, and ignored the rest.

Yes, both teams led their league in wins. And both teams had virtual cakewalks through the postseason (though the ChiSox haven't closed the deal yet). Yes, both teams played superb defense (.713 defensive efficiency for both), and both teams featured great starting pitching backed up by a deep bullpen. (Many of the pitching stats are eeriely similar: the one I'll highlight is RA: 656 for the '98 Yanks, 645 for the '05 ChiSox - in a slight hitters' park, no less!).

But when you get to offense, the comparison fails. Miserably.

The '98 Yanks outperfomed the '05 ChiSox in EVERY aspect of offense but one*. 965 runs scored for the '98 Yanks (led all of MLB) vs 741 runs scored for the '05 ChiSox (13th in MLB). The '98 Yanks hit .288/.362/.460 as a team; the '05 ChiSox: .262/.322/.425. And for all the small ball/speed talk:
'05 ChiSox: 23 triples, 137 SB, 67 CS
'98 Yanks: 31 triples, 153 SB, 63 CS

I don't care how close the intangibles are, you just can't compare the overall juggernaut that was the '98 Yanks with a team that scored 741 runs. Give me a break, please.

*the '05 ChiSox struck out 1002 times, the '98 Yanks 1025

6 & 7 don't want El Duque back - that's fine, he's definitely injury plagued. But maybe you guys can come up with another pitcher who has the balls to get the Red Sox out for three straight innings in the biggest game of their season? And maybe you can come up with another guy who get out a tough jam in World Series when he clearly doesn't have his best stuff? You'd think suffering through the terrible pitchers the Yanks trotted out there this year would make you appreciate a guy who has been the second best clutch performer (behind Mo of course) in recent Yankee postseason history - but I guess not. El Duque has guts, and I for one have never regretted him being on the mound in a big spot, fail or succeed.

That was just a bad baseball game.

In this day and age where people think length automatically = good, this game disproves it. It was long, tedious and boring.

From the ninth through the thirteenth, no one, with the possible exception of Brad Lidge did anything right. The pitchers were awful, the hitters were worse. It was almost embarassing as a baseball fan to watch the "Two best teams in baseball" play such findamentally poor baseball for so long.

And If I saw one more person botch a bunt attempt I was going to break something

9, you miss the point. It's not that I don't appreciate what ED did in 98-01, but more that I disagree with the NY media's quick trigger on killing the Yankees over the fact that he's on another team that's in the WS. ED was great, but he's far from great right now, and I think last night proved that. I think you make a telling admission - that ED didn't have his best stuff last night. Nor did he have his best stuff for most of the year. And that's why I can live with letting him go.

Totally agree that his addition to the 2005 roster may not have made the difference. But I also find it hard to ignore his sublime performance against the Red Sox and to discredit his scoreless inning last night. Looking at his 4 walks last night and saying, "Good, I'm glad he wasn't on the team this year" doesn't make sense to me. I would have loved to have him coming out of the pen in big spots all year long. Plus, the El Duque 2004 version only saved our season, so I'll extend our 98-01 lovefest to last year as well. We both agree he's not the pitcher he once was, but I still find the older version superior to most of the options we had at our disposal.

As impressed as I was with Duque getting out of that jam last night, and the Sox a couple weeks ago, I'm not sad to see him on another team. His past successes aside, he's exactly the type of pitcher the Yanks don't need - past his prime and would cost too much relative to his performance. Cripes, he had 5.12 ERA this year! And lefties crushed him, so I wouldn't have been too happy to see him come out of the pen and, 2 batters later, face Ortiz with a game on the line.

Jonny and Shaun, you're missing the fact that El Duque only got out of that jam and pitched a scoreless inning because Garner failed to squeeze with Taveras. That game should have been over in nine and Duque should have been the losing pitcher. Alex tells me Garner threw his team under the bus after the loss. Moron. It was his failure to call for the squeeze is what lost that game.

A comparison with the '99 Yankees would probably be more accurate since they went 11-1 in the post season and didn't win 125 games. Comparing any team in recent history to the 1998 Yanks is not a fair comparison. The 98 Yanks didn't get all the breaks, Knoblauch, but did get some, Tino pre-grand-slam pitch.

Cliff, I admit I didn't see the game (only the highlights, if you can call them that), so I didn't think about the possibility of a squeeze before you mentioned it. But there's no guarantee a squeeze would have worked. I don't know where the fielders were, but even if they were susceptible, you're still presuming Taveras would have executed it properly - probably a safe bet, but not guaranteed. And, as people smarter than I point out, at least the strikeout still left Berkman (and then Ensberg) - the 'Stros two best hitters! - a chance to win it:

http://tinyurl.com/8mp9y

They didn't.

I do agree that Garner was stupid in complaining about the 'Stros bad hitting - way to demoralize your team, 'Scrap Iron' - and I do think he deserved part of the blame for the loss. Garner's bullpen management the whole Series has been awful, and that's hurt the Astros as much as any bad hitting or bad pitching by the players. Its like he forgot everything that served him well in the '04 playoffs.

Shaun, I do credit Duque with getting Berkman out in that spot, but Berkman was the final out of the inning. No shot for Ensberg there. Meanwhile, the infield was in, but Konerko was holding the runner at first and Taguchi was close to second, there was a huge hole on the right side. All Taveras, perhaps the best bunter on the Astros, had to do was bunt it past Duque into that hole.

I was suprised the squeeze wasn't on as well. But I don't think that takes away from El Duque's performance.

It was pure Rope-A-Dope and the most exciting part of the game. (from what I saw - fell asleep after the 13th)

Hard to squeeze against a guy that throws from several different arm angles and is just as likely to paint the corner with a fastball as he is to throw a sweeping slider three feet outside. To say that a squeeze COULD have worked, I'd buy it. To say that the game SHOULD have been over in nine with El Duque the loser, that's just not fair to the man or to the game of baseball.

5.12 ERA. Ouch. Where would that put El Duque amongst our relievers? 3rd? 4th?

5.12 would put Duque behind Mo, Gordon, Sturtze and Rodriguez. And I'd rather have him pitching than either Sturtze or Rodriguez.

None of this should be misconstrued to say he could have won us the World Series. I just feel that his October performances this year are prime examples of his guile and guts, both of which would have been welcome in the Yankee bullpen considering what else we had back there.

Cliff, didn't he walk Berkman to load 'em up and whiff Ensberg?

"Guile and guts"? "Rope a dope"? Some interesting El Duque apologizing, when his performance stunk to high heaven. I'm also guessing we've forgotten the Anderson and Glaus home runs in Game 2 of the 2002 ALDS. Clutch.

While ED isn't as good as he once was, he's still better than anyone in this year's Yankees bullpen not named Gordon or possibly Sturtze. (We don't even need to bring His name into the discussion.)

And I'm sorry MLB, but if the game doesn't start until 8:38 pm EST, then you can be sure I'm not watching most of it, even if there aren't extra innings.

Ooops. You're right, Dan M. I was conflating several different at-bats (Berkman K in the 8th, Berkman inning ending grounder in the 13th, and Duque K-ing Ensberg). So I retract the credit I gave Hernandez on the Berkman K, since there wasn't one.

Ensberg had an excellent year, but he's nowhere near the hitter Berkman is. In fact, I remember the Ensberg at bat now that I've checked the game log, and it was dreadful. Bases loaded, two outs, bottom of the ninth, a walk or a HBP wins the game as much as a hit and Ensberg hacks at the first three pitches despite Duque having failed to throw a strike to Burke, Biggio or Berkman (only two of the four balls to Berkman were intentional). Ugh.

By the way, the Verducci piece Alex links to above and Joe Sheehan's write up for Baseball Prospectus are both worth checking out. Garner seems to have signed his own pink slip after his performance last night, and for more reasons than the lack of a game winning squeeze bunt.

21. You apologize for someone when they fail, not when they succeed. And last time I checked, when a pitcher tosses a scoreless frame, it's a success no matter if it didn't meet your particular aethetic tastes.

And for you to question his clutch performances by citing the Angel game in 2002, I could debate that point, and that would be apologizing for that night's failure. Instead I'll simply state El Duque's good career stats: 1004 INN, 4.11 ERA, 70-49, 794 K's versus his clutch-as- hell post season career stats:
106 INN, 2.55 ERA 9-3, 107K's.

I haven't yet met the Yankee fan that doesn't appreciate his mental toughness in huge games - a trait that was on display last night and in the Boston series. Also, generally speaking, if El Duque doesn't have to pitch to a big lefty in tough spot in the playoffs, he doesn't. Check out game one of the Texas series in 1999.

My praise for Duque's performance last night wasn't intended to equate it to what he did against the Red Sox, or to lament his departure from the Yankees. I specifically pointed out that his escape last night was ugly, but he still got the job done.

It would have been nice to have Duque on the team this year as a long relief guy (gosh knows he couldn't have been worse than what we had), but the White Sox valued him a lot more than the Yanks did, and gave him plenty of rope as a starter, more than I think we would have. In general, I think there was just too much baggage around him and his past accomplishments for him to stay a Yankee.

That doesn't mean I can't be happy for him or admire what he's able to do, even in his advancing years. His performance last night was quite ugly, but the fact is, he recovered from a very nasty mess of his own doing.

Belittling what he did by claiming he struck out two poor hitters and pitched around good ones conveniently misses the point that he's pitched around people cagily his entire career. Plus, he still had to strike out two hitters when he was ailing physically and had pretty poor stuff.

I'm not trying to put down or deny his mental toughness. But mental toughness only gets you so far, and you still need to have stuff. My only points have been that I don't think he has much stuff left, that last night showed he had very little stuff left, and he was lucky to get out of an inning that he stunk up. Keep walking 3 guys an inning, and see how far that gets you.

Also, I have no idea what the Angels home runs against Duque have anything to do with this discussion...probably the weakest argument in this entire thread and just a simple exercise in bashing.

Besides, the blame for those HR arguably goes to Torre...even at his peak, Duque had clear limitations, and most fans could see that he'd reached them by that fateful inning in game 2. Duque should have been pulled.

I don't know that anyone is saying Duque is superman, or even close to it. If anything, the admiration being thrown his way is an acknowlegement of his ability to pitch around hairy situations and to use guile to work with less than great stuff against great hitters. At some point, when you do it often (and again, he was hurting physically last night), it goes beyond "luck".

I'm admiring what he's doing DESPITE lack of stuff. I'm not saying he's still one of the greats. Try to make the distinction.

Agree with a lot of that Dan M. But you called up the two Angels' bombs to make a point that he wasn't clutch. As the only other Yankee besides Mariano to play BETTER in the postseason than he does in the regular season, El Duque's post season resume is legendary, smudges and all.

And I personally think El Duque is better equipped than most pitchers to emerge unscathed from a three-walk inning, especially when he is walking the guys semi-on purpose as I remember him doing to Texas in 1999. But agreed that it's not a situation you want to test out too often.

so what we have determined is that we need to sign duque just in time to be allowed to include him on our post-season roster next year. yes?

The reference to the 2002 home runs was to temper the comments that were getting close to "El Duque is a post-season clutch god" territory, and, more importantly, to highlight the fact he's not the postseason performer he was in 1998, and hasn't been for some time. Duque didn't start that game, so to say that Torre should've pulled him is just more of the apologizing I mentioned previously.

Remember, my first post dealt with the criticism the Yankees are getting for letting ED go, that I thought such criticism was unwarranted (at least w/ respect to ED), and that last night was another piece of evidence to support it. Finally, Max, and this is where we differ, is that I don't admire a guy who pitches, fields, and holds runners as poorly as ED did last night, even if he gets out unscathed.

The Yankees should have ample criticism heaped upon them for neglecting CF, signing Jaret Wright and constructing their worst bullpen in recent history. El Duque wasn't a bargain when he refused arbitration and letting him go was hardly a bad call based on his age and the need for long term answers.

But the part that sticks in my craw, and apparently some others around here is that somehow you are trying to use last night's tightrope act as validation for that off season move, rather than appreciating another example of a great ex-Yankee using everything he's got to get his team the outs they need to win the game.

Both his appearances this postseason have entertained the hell out of me; and showcased how well he competes when he's got everything working, and how well he competes when everything is not working. I'll join Max in admiring that.

Re: El Duque and the bullpen. One of the reasons (though money/contract length was also a consideration) that ED left was that the Yankees refused to offer him a guaranteed starting spot, while the ChiSox did.

While it would have been nice to have ED as a reliever fulltime or in the postseason, it would have required him being a starter in the regular season. With the other signings that just couldn't happen (now we can argue whether those were a good idea or not, but that's a different argument).

>>Both his appearances this postseason have entertained the hell out of me; and showcased how well he competes when he's got everything working, and how well he competes when everything is not working. I'll join Max in admiring that. <<

Thank you jonnystrongleg...unlike some others here, I'm not suffering from "ex-girlfriend" syndrome hoping that all the ex-Yankees go down in flames and looking for any excuse to gratuitously slam them. (Comparing Clemens' meltdown to Wells' is another example...saying "at least Wells gave us an inning" is like saying "at least my ex burned down the house instead of just taking everything, allowing me to collect the insurance money")

You put it better than me...it's entertaining to watch certain players do well, no matter what uniform they have on. I think I'd find Duque entertaining even if he had never worn pinstripes.

Dan and I can agree on the fact that last night is an equally good case for him not being near pinstripes this year, even if he was fun to watch. As for Duque not starting Game 2 in 2002, that is an equally lame comeback, because he pitched more innings than the starter (Pettite, who got tagged early), and anyone who watched the game could see that the heart of the order was eventually going to get to him. But of course, there I go apologizing again...puh-leeeze.

I don't think I ever said I wanted ED to fail, or that I took any joy in it. I just don't think Jack Curry should take a shot at the Yanks for ED being in Chicago this year.

I was at that game in 2002. And even if we assume that we could see it coming (apparently Torre didn't), I think that just proves my point that Stuff is more important than Guts or Competitiveness - because at that moment, guts wasn't enough.

Cashman is staying:

http://tinyurl.com/ddbtf

3 years, roughly $5.5 million.

I'm glad that's wrapped up; now on to Matsui and a pitching coach.

// Cashman is staying: //

Good news! Now we can get back to business as usual. Let Godzilla walk, trade Cano and Wang, pass on Small and Chacon. Check with Tampa to make sure post '01 modus operandi in still in effect, then round up the usual suspects:

1B: Fred McGriff
2B: Bret Boone
SS: Rich Aurilla
3B: Todd Zeile
LF: Rickey Henderson
CF: Marquis Grissom
RF: Juan Gonzalez
C: Benito Santiago
DH: Andres Galaragga

Resign Kevin Brown and snatch up Jose Lima for the starting rotation, leaving the revamp of the pen, of which the prime candidates are no-brainers:

LHRP: John Rocker
LHRP: Terry Mulholland
RHRP: Julian Tavarez
RHRP: Byung-Hyun Kim

Then I'd say we're pretty much set...

ROFL! I was spluttering in outrage when I read "Let Godzilla walk," then I read the rest of sentence and realized you had to be kidding.

If you're reading this Tampa, #36 is a JOKE! Do not do any of this, or we're going to contact Gotti Jr.

According to the LA Times, the ratings for the first World Series game were the lowest since 1971. The average for the first two games was the lowest since ratings started in 1969!

It's just not the same without the Yankees, I tell ya. Even people who say they hate 'em miss 'em when they're gone.

The amount of sacrifice bunts is just ridiculous, you would think that at this stage they had already figured out that if the first batter gets on and you sacrifice him over they just have to pitch around the 3rd. hitter (astros) 4ht. (white sox) (who are the only dangerous batters in both lineups) and you erase any trouble.

These two teams are shameful, especially the Astros who try this nonesense in the first inning of a potential elimination game. STUPID.

I miss the Yanks

Thanks for the good news, Marcus - that makes me feel a lot better about things. Now I hope the White Sox win tonight so the announcement will come sooner rather than later!

tocho, I think Garner's thrown in the towel - the only way Houston wins tonight is if Backe keeps throwing a gem and someone (lets say Ensberg, 'cause he's due) hits a homer. Not if he keeps striking out like that, though.

it's amazing, the Astros can't hit shit.

They sure are making the White Sox look good.

And Backe gets another strikeout to get out of trouble! Who would have though the best pitching matchup would've been this one? But the Astros still need a run (or 5).

Guess Garner finally remembered that Lidge can be used in non-save situations . . . but why tonight? Why not leave Backe in? He only had 100 pitches, and there were two out. I would have let Backe hit, then brought in Lidge if Backe got into trouble . . . and now Lidge has blown the lead.

I think Houston is finished.

Congrats White Sox fans. Great team.

Very impressive series, I must say. Every game was a squeaker, and yet they won every one.

Well, like that NFL Network ad says...tomorrow, we're all undefeated again. :)

So. . . how many days until pitchers and catchers?