Am I the only one who thinks Torre is playing Sierra way too much? The guy has a .300 OBP and doesn't usually do much except in pinch hit situations. I thought his starting in the ALCS instead of Lofton was a part of their demise. I think he is a fine pinch hitter(read, not a starter.) and an occasional DH, but he has no business being in the field more than once a month. I realize, as I did with Womack, that Ruben is trying, but I would much rather see Crosby in RF until Sheffield can field again.

Sierra should be a DH period. Bubba needs to be out there for defense, and I have a feeling he'd get a few hits (surrounded by that lineup). Yesterday hurt bad. Real bad. Another chance to gain on the struggling Red Sox passed us by.

One can be nearly positive that the Yankees will make the playoffs (thereby emitting positive karma), as I am, while still pointing out Torre's seriaal tactical blunders. To fail to do so would be to deny reality.

If you don't want people posting in the commments section who post the truth about Torre, say so and I will never post there again.

Sierra can't be the DH because, according to various published reports, Sheff has to DH for the remainder of the season. I agree that under the circumstances, Bubba should play.

Oops my bad. I meant PH. (Pinch hitter). Haven't had my coffee yet....

Yes, according to what I read in the papers, Sheff said that he won't be able to play the field for the next two weeks. And if you peeped into yesterday's comment thread, there was much wailing about Sierra in right.

I heard on the radio (don't remember if it was Jays' or Yanks' broadcast) that Sheff would be back in right tonight and that he was being kept out of the field because of Toronto's artificial tur. Clearly different than what Rich heard. Anyone have anything more definitive?

Thanks, Alex -- sorry about the cross post.

NY Daily News is reporting that Shef is done in RF and will DH for the remainder of this season.

Giambi plays better when he's at first. Sheffield's injury reduces Torre's temptation to pencil Giambi into the lineup card as the DH. It's a small good thing--as Alex likes to say--to take from an otherwise unfortunate development.

As for comments, Alex didn't ask people to stop posting negative comments. He merely encouraged people to think positive thoughts. If you believe in that sort of thing, then it might help you to feel better about what's happening with the ballclub.

I can't believe that the White Sox are on the verge of catching the Indians.

ok guys, the Yanks need to sweep the O's. 2 of 3 just won't do it unless the Rays take care of some serious business against the Sox -- which is very possible.

I've been saying this for a couple of days now and I'm still sticking to it: The Red Sox offense is DEAD in the water. Since Schilling and the Sox beat the Yanks 9-2 two saturdays ago, the "vaunted" Red Sox offense has scored 0, 6, 3, 5, 2, 3, 2 and 3 runs. During the same period, the Yankee offense has scored 1, 17, 6, 9, 11, 1 and 5 runs.

Varitek is tired, Damon is hurt, Renteria is underperforming to the point of sitting out of the lineup, Millar is atrocious, etc. Manny is playing subpar September ball (his two RBI game a few days ago not withstanding) and the opposing pitchers will do everything they can to pitch around Ortiz.

Of course, the Rays pitching staff could very easily cure whatever ails any offense. But I think the Sox O is exhausted.

We have 7 games at home, the sox have 6 games on the road.

Let's be in first place by the end of this weekend, boys!!!

//The criticism against Joe Torre has become downright shrill in the comments section of this blog, the frustration level reaching a peak. With two weeks left the sky really does seem to be falling. There is no margin for error now, but many Yankee fans--the calm and measured lot we often are--are emotionally at Def Con One.//

replace "Joe Torre" with "Terry Francona" and "Yankee" with "Red Sox" (and, well, take out "the calm and measured lot we often are") and you have Boston right now as well. Things are certainly "interesting", you can at least say that.

"As for comments, Alex didn't ask people to stop posting negative comments. He merely encouraged people to think positive thoughts. If you believe in that sort of thing, then it might help you to feel better about what's happening with the ballclub."

That is exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not trying to tell people what to think or what to write, though I would like to ask for as much restraint as is humanly possibly. Look, I curse as much as the next guy, but I try to keep it regulated so that it doesn't become repetitive and boring (and to some, off-putting).

I just know that I fight my own tendancies to be bitter and negative, which is different from being objectively critical. But because of the nature of this time of year and the team's situation, a lot of the valid criticism is being presented in an over-the-top, hysterical way. (Joe Torre fucking sucks, he's a fucking loser bum asshole, I fucking hate him, etc.)

When we spend much of our threads building on that vibe, it is just a turn-off to me, that's all I'm sayin. I realize first and second guessing is part of what draws people to talking about the game, and leaving comments in a thread like this. There is a string of mistakes that contribute to every failure and this year's Yankees are no exceptions should they fall short.

I'd just like to encourage those of you who do leave posts to try and keep the tone civil. Personally, I'll find the threads more enjoyable.

Every time the Yanks lose from here on out there will be plenty of blame to go around and I have no problem with people laying it where they see fit. But I know I'll get a lot more out of commiserating, empathizing with how frustating it feels to be in a losing situation, sharing our common frustrations, rather than spending all of our energies just being furious, or worse, furious and superior.

That's all.

I hear you Beth. I assume that any manager in big towns with big expectations is going to face the same heat. Oh, and "the calm and measured lot we often are" was meant to be a kind jab. We are far from that.

Not to look too far ahead, but the final weekend with Yanks vs. Red Sox and Chi Sox vs. Cleveland could be a fun/interesting/heart-wrenching/nail-biting weekend.

Alex,

Thanks for a little perspective. I will try to put my voodoo doll away for now. One last poke, ok ok, I feel better, that's it. Some criticism of Joe is reactionary, and some is appropriate.

I do have a theory which may help explain the harshness of the critiques:

In all sports, but in baseball especially, the most gut-wrenching position to be in is "playing and watching." Each game is difficult to watch when you are fighting for a playoff spot. There is no rest until the final out is made, while stress permeates nearly every moment. Couple this with the added stressor of one more unpredictable, one more situation which is out of our control, in this case, Cleveland and Boston. This witch's brew of emotion may lead even the ordinarily even-tempered individual to react uncharacteristically. I hope this makes someone feel better, if not myself.

As for the "manager grows ineffective over time theory," I just don't buy it. Bobby Cox would be a great example, Bill Cowher, Joe Mcarthy, Bill Walsh, etc. A less than bright manager may succumb to this, but I prefer to believe that as a human being, one can adapt and change, take in new situations and react appropriately. Time alone shouldn't be a valid answer, it is merely an excuse.

That being said, we certainly can argue round and round concerning Joe's decisions. However, the players win or lose the game, sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. My biggest problem with management is the "asking too much" scenario. It is more prevalent in football, but appears in baseball as well. Typical examples are asking a quarterback to run a play he has not run in practice or behave in a way the player is not comfortable with, instead of playing to his strengths, most often the play fails miserably and the player is blamed. In baseball, the most obvious examples are asking a player to bunt when the player has little experience or aptitude for it--granted they should all know how to execute it, but that is of little consequence during the actual game-- another example is asking a pull hitter to go the other way to move a runner, something the player isn't accustomed to doing, rightfully or wrongfully, and the play fails. A manger must always use player's strengths not weaknesses. I see it all the time in sports. Managers get wedded to a "great play" because they are so dog gone brilliant in drawing it up, it looks so great on paper, how could it not work they think, and they fail to take into account who it is that will be called on to execute it.

In Joe's case, he continues to "plug in" players where they don't belong simply because they fit his "game plan." I guess this is the root of my issues with him.

Yes, for example, Embree is paid to get the lefty out, yes Ruben is paid to play right field and hit. The argument goes, "well why have them on the team if you are not going to use them," or something to that effect. That is true to a degree, but when a guy has a .320 BA against lefties, isn't it clear he is already not doing his job, and that a contingency plan might be in order. That is all I'm saying, just because a guy gets paid to get lefties out, doesn't mean he will accomplish this, nor does it mean he should continue to receive opportunities. Colter Bean maybe? Start Bubba in right maybe? It might be time to come to grips with the fact that Ruben isn't going to get enough AB's to get in a groove and give the team the best chance to win. If you have to PH Ruben, then do so. Further, why pull a starter or reliever simply because the player you call on "gets paid" to do a job, Joe's alarm clock begins a' buzzin, and it happens to be the 7th inning? Shouldn't it matter whether or not the guy in there has been effective that day, and whether the replacement has been doing that job effectively, at least a little?

Using ineffective players simply because they are on the team and are getting paid just doesn't make any logical sense to me if, in fact, the ultimate goal is to "play to win the game." Thanks Herm!

FWIW, I have clashed with Rich, who is one of the more consistent vocal critics of Torre around here. However, I understand his positions and he expresses them concisely and clearly. I also respect his knowledge of the game, and he is second to no one in his passion for the Yankees. Furthermore, he is generally respectful toward other people and sticks to his arguments, which are well reasoned.

My beef is not with anyone specific for the most part, but more with the "piling on" that takes place after a loss (not just here but on other Yankee sites, though you expect it more elsewhere). This leads to some valid criticisms spiraling into crazy rants. Because Torre had about as bad a day as one could imagine yesterday, it's understandable the knives were really out for him.

I just don't know how productive it is to rehash Torre's failings over and over, to dredge up conspiracies about Torre's toadies in the press who supposedly protect his reputation, or to simply say "I hate xxxx" (well, maybe "I hate Embree"). I think Torre is deservedly on a pretty short leash these days, but the failings of the team cut across the entire organization (George, Tampa, the F.O., underachieving players, etc, etc). So to the degree that any negativity is expressed, it would be nice to see it distributed a bit more.

I also think it wouldn't be bad to acknowledge the things Torre and Mel have actually done well once in a while, beyond the puffy stuff in the papers. But that might be too positive for us "calm and measured" types. :-)

Oh, and I stated a few weeks ago, during the previous low water mark for negativity around here (the last loss to Tampa at YS), that I felt the Yankees would make the playoffs.

I'm still staying optimistic and sticking to that, though Cleveland's insane run, and the inevitability of a series at Fenway that matters, is going to mean some seriously sleepless nights for two more weeks.

The veneer of positivity is thin, I'll grant that, and I would feel much better if we had an actual ace going into these last 14 games, or a real right fielder. I'm only slightly comforted by the fact that our rival for the division has the same issues (replace "right fielder" with "shortstop").

All season I've been against using Sierra as anything other than a PH, so I'm with everyone on this. Its certainly annoying when we know better . . .

IMHO, though its hard, I think its good to keep the 'big picture' in mind.

For example, playing Sierra in RF yesterday, or using Embree, isn't what sunk this season (if it sinks; I don't think it will). Just like the papers like to (continually try to) point to this game or that as the season's "turning point", there is no one point where it all went south (if it does; I don't think it will).

Giving 677 PAs to Womack, Sierra, Flaherty, and Rey Sanchez, and giving Tino 168 PAs after May ended - that, among other things, is what sunk this season (though I don't think its sunk now, or that it will sink).

How's that for some cautious positive thinking combined with a realistic evaluation? =)

//I would feel much better if we had an actual ace going into these last 14 games, or a real right fielder. I'm only slightly comforted by the fact that our rival for the division has the same issues (replace "right fielder" with "shortstop").//

Who would've thought at the beginning of the year that the respective aces in September would be Small and Wakefield? (And Alex Cora's not such a bad shortstop....uh, yeah.)

I think it's incredibly revealing that the people who are reality-based about Torre, only attack Torre, while the Torre defenders personally attack those who are reality-based.

There is an example of that at the end of the previous thread.

Max, I'm with you. I am an occasional poster, mostly a lurker. I've been a Yankee fan all my life, I am 55. The criticism of Torre is fine, at times he deserves it. As the season winds down, the site becomes positively shrill. I suppose, for most of you its a catharsis, to vent, and get it off your chest. When the season's over, we can get it all off our chest. If the Yanks don't make it, there will be plenty of blame to go around. I think that George will fire Torre, Cashman will find another job, and the team will be left with, God knows what in the front office. All the Torre & Cashman bashers can debate who will be the next GM and Manager, at least it will make it an interesting winter.
I for one still remain positive, I think the Yanks will make the playoffs,one way or another. If they don't make it,I fear we will be retrograding to the black decade of the 80's. Just my opinion!

Exactly how does one get the impression that the posters who have crticized Torre (and most have concurred justifiably)are either pessimistic or indeed are hoping that the Yankees don't make the playoffs? I for one hope with every fiber of my being (as I'm sure Rich and Stormer do)that the Yankees go all the way for their 27th World Championship this season. And if they did this and somehow overcame the serial bungling of their manager, I would be more than happy to see him complete his multi-gazillion dollar contract in pinstripes before waving us all aloha. How is it more palatable for blog-readers to read the umpteenth post bashing Derek or ARod or Alan Embree or Wayne Franklin or Robinson Cano or the dessicated corpse of Kevin Brown than to read reasoned critiques of Joe Torre's lack of managerial ability? If being a Yankee fan means blindly waving a banner like a Stepford wife, count me out. I guess I'm not a real Yankee fan just like ARod's not a real Yankee. Forgive me if I notice that the emperor has no clothes.

JohnnyC,
I think your last post here shows what some of the problem is. I've read your "reasoned critiques" of Joe Torre, and quite frankly they read like anything but reasoned critiques. No one is suggesting that Torre is perfect, but many posts (both yours and other Torre bashers) are filled with hatred for the man and give him absolutely no credit for the incredibly successful run the Yankees have had since he was brought in.

Torre has had a very bad year. The Yankees may miss the playoffs and Torre deserves a lot of the blame if they don't. This does not erase his successes over the years; I'm not sure what the previous nine years have to do with a thoughtful analysis of 2005.

I think Torre's biggest problem is his inflexibility. He established some winning patterns in 1996 and has stuck with them. The personnel on the team does no longer matches his strategy.

Three quick examples:

(1) Small ball. One manifestation of Torre's obsession with small ball was the unwise decision to start Tony Bozack and to bat him first or second at the beginning of the season. Inexcusable.

(2) Lefthander out of the bullpen. From Heredia to Franklin to Orosco to White to Embree, etc. Torre needs to get over it: THE YANKEES DO NOT HAVE AN EFFECTIVE LEFTY OUT OF THE BULLPEN. As this board has mentioned all day, it was quite unbelievable to see Embree out there in a tight game in the late innings. Why does Torre keep trying to bang this particular square peg into a round hole?

(3) As the team sleepwalks through the first three months of the season, and as they continually throw games away with baserunning blunders and other mental errors, Torre is 100% absolutely convinced that the team needs to "relax."

This style worked in 1998, didn't it? Don't panic when you start the season 1-4. Don't panic when you fall behind Cleveland in the playoffs. Relax and let your natural talents reveal themselves.

Fast forward to 2005 and the Yankees get swept by KC and Torre insists that the players play poorly because they were feeling too much pressure. Maybe Torre needs to reconsider this and start applying some pressure.

rbj,

Actually, only Rich is "filled with hatred" for the man. I personally idolize him.

DarrenF,

You are obviously filled with hatred for the man. Methinks you too should "relax." Or, perhaps as Torre said earlier in the season to his team in a clubhouse meeting, "play smarter." DarrenF, just play smarter. It'll be all right. :)

Most if not all of us don't hate Torre as a man, we merely have contempt for his inability to use common baseball sense to guide his tactical decisions. Aside from some occasional frustration in the heat of battle, we provide reasoned, stat-based criticisms of Torre. Yet it is often characterized as "bashing," similar to the way Torre's accolytes in the media repeat the false meme that the YES reporters, at George's direction, are asking Torre tough (i.e., unfair) questions after losses.

Torre should not be immune to criticism, nor should he be able to escape having to explain his managerial moves to reporters.

It's often said, with undeniable justification, that Torre's strength as a manager is his unique ability to handle George and the pressures of managing in the media capital of the world.

If so, then having a thick skin, and having ready answers to questions (positive and negative) must come with the territory.

Agreed, Rich. Hope you didn't take my comment earlier seriously. But I really think it's revealing that we can be accused of hating Torre as a man (as opposed to hating him as a woman?)when it's perfectly alright elsewhere in this same blog to enunciate hateful feelings for everyone from Derek to ARod to Carl Pavano to George Steinbrenner (not to mention Michael Kay, John Sterling and Suzyn Waldman). I don't think those people are above criticism, reasoned or otherwise, either. Short of bad taste, no one is immune to criticism. Unless of course you're a Supreme Court Justice.

Well, I don't believe that the Yankees are making the playoffs and haven't since the All Star break though I have moments of optimism. For most of the season, Yankees simply have been unable to beat the teams that they are supposed to beat. Those losses against KC and the D'Rays were killers. Plus, I simply don't believe that this Yankee team was simply poorly constructed. Compounded by the fact that many of the off season moves of the last couple years have simply not worked out.

Alex, your comments surprise me for one. Given your long standing silence, I actually thought you didn't mind the overall shrill obnoxious tone of the comments as well as insults being throw around at other posters that has populated your blog for the last couple of months.

Ok guys, deep breath. Gather 'round the fire.

Kum Bay Yah, My Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Kum Bay Yah, My Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Kum Bay Yah, My Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Oh Lord, Kum Bay Yah

Someone's crying, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Someone's crying, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Oh Lord, Kum Bay Yah

Someone's praying, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Someone's praying, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Oh Lord, Kum Bay Yah

Someone's singing, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Someone's singing, Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Oh Lord, Kum Bay Yah

Kum Bay Yah, My Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Kum Bay Yah, My Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Kum Bay Yah, My Lord, Kum Bay Yah
Oh Lord, Kum Bay Yah

Oh Lord, Kum Bay Yah

Don't you feel better now? :)

I just tuned in... what the heck is going on with everybody? I can't even tell who's serious and who's not. And that makes me angry. Very. Very. Angry.

Ben, we are all serious. We are just trying to temper our reactions and turn a more positive corner. The negativity reaching near boiling point.

Alex was nice enough to reign us in a little. Much appreciated!

Let's chill out and hope for the best.

Anyone else miss Paul O'Neil, Roger, etc....

Now that we are all friends again, what is the status of Giambi. I still need to win my fantasy ball league for the next two weeks with him at first.

I guess I'm more surprised that there's not been more criticism leveled at the front office for its absolutely godawful off-season. Whose job it it to provide Torre with a bench with better alternatives than Sierra and Bubba? This is not to say that Torre doesn't frustrate me but I can't think of any manager (when left to his own devices)who doesn't make questionable moves. Bobby Cox is a fine manager, but really the brilliance of the Braves lies with the organizational committment to player development and collaboration between front office and manager. In the Yankees, you have factions within factions. Torre is certainly not innocent, as he apparently adds to the division. But, doesn't responsibility for an organization that often seems to be acting at cross purposes lie with the person at the top? It would take an exceptional manager to use this roster intelligently given how thin it is. Torre isn't one but who is? Who should replace Torre? Lou? Pineilla is notorious for not trusting young players. You think he'd embrace Colter Bean?

And one more thing: The Yanks ARE making the post-season on the shoulders, apparently, of Robinson Cano.

oops! I didn't mean to add to any contentiousness on this site. Disregard my statement although it was meant as polite criticism of the critics.

Paulie, Paulie, Paulie . . . "They took my thumbs Paulie, they took my thumbs . . ."

Of course I miss Paulie, who could not?

Giambi will be fine.

Cano = Can Do!

Nick from the Heights....good post.

Robbie Cano, dontcha know!!!

The Yankees lost one game, they've been playing great and are still very much in this race. I for one am optimistic this team will make the playoffs. I have full faith in the team.

I can't speak for Alex definitively, but this is his blog (well, a subset of a broader site)...it's not a democracy nor an equal opportunity forum for critics and supporters of all things Yankee. I gravitated here from other Yankee sites because of the wealth of intelligent contributions and the reasonably strong community, with a good signal to noise ratio.

And a big part of the appeal is Alex's measured tone...he was surely as devastated as anyone at the way last season ended, but I remember this blog being the only place I could go where there was a sense of restraint and civility spiked with some humor. (Though Alex hinted a few times at shutting down the comments section when the RS-Yankee baiting got too heated).

I don't think his appeal for the same sense of civility and restraint in the middle of an unbearably tense playoff chase is unreasonable, especially given how much the comments section here lately resembles other Yankee forums after a loss. I think Alex and Cliff set a great example in the way they contribute and comment, and they (indirectly) expect commenters to make their points in the same spirit.

Perhaps that's an unreasonable expectation without more aggressive moderation, especially in times like these, which spoiled Yankee fans (well, me anyway) haven't seen in a while.

And Rich, I hope you don't take my most recent comment as any sort of personal criticism; it was meant as just the opposite. I would be disappointed if you stopped posting here.

Torre spelled backwards is Errot.
Errot is a common mispelling of error.
Error spelled backwards is Rorre.
Rorre is what Astro calls Joe Torre.
Follow that circle until it hurts.
You'll all feel better in the morning.

Ben, I have also have tuned back in recently after a hiatus (damn work, don't they know it gets in the way of my web surfing??).

I have noticed the venom is dripping more freely in the threads these days. I have no problem with the good, rational criticisms of Torre, as he has indeed made several questionable tactical moves. I do have a probem when they're taken to the emotional level of "Torre is a fucking moron" or whatever. Keep the criticisms coming, but just temper down the emotion little bit. This goes for any critiques of any player, staff member, etc. I myself am neutral on Torre, down on the FO. That being said, posters such as Rich have made me think more about Torre as a manager, so I appreciate the comments. That is what this blog is all about, an open and intelligent dialogue. I don't want it to degrade to the YES network boards, where just about every post is just "X sucks" "no, fuck you, X is a god," etc.

I think a lot of it comes from the in-game threads, where we get caught up in the emotion of the game. I'm sure some of us get much more emotional in front of the TV than grown adults should be (myself included). The "heat of the moment" emotions about members of the Yanks are getting posted on this thread. Using myself for example, I'm a Bernie Williams fan, and would love for him to do well. In turn, it frustrates me more when he does not do well. Right now, it is easy for me in my more calm state to say that Bernie is a person of greatly diminished skills and is a defensive liability, and not the best on offense (I'd back up with appropriate stats, but don't have the time to look). However, during games when I have seen Bernie ground into a DP for the upteenth time, I have yelled comments at the TV such as "Bernie, you old fart! Fucking retire already!" or "What the fuck!!?? Go to the glue factory, you're finished!" then felt not so great about myself for letting my temper get the best of me. In any case, if I posted my more rational critique of Bernie in this blog, it could stir good debate and it would be more in tune with this blog. If I also posted what I yell at the TV, then I think that would decrease the enjoyment of all on this thread.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. We should all feel free to critique, just try to keep it rational.

BTW, total change of subject, but in case I haven't stated this before, I'd like to state for the record that I thought Giambi was finished as a player early this season. I was wrong!

Sorry for the non sequitur.

I wouldn't mind taking a wide left turn here on a more forward thinking plane.

Has anyone given any thought to next season, in terms of prospects? Although we are out from under Brown's contract, likely releasing or signing Bernie for a fairly resonable fee, we will still have quite a payroll nut. I just don't see Levine and George pushing for the baseball speed of sound, near 300 million dollars.

I am continually informed by the likes of Peter "shot and a beer" Gammons and Ken "I just hate the Yankees OK?" Rosenthal, that we are devoid of farm team talent.

I did it a little research and it appears we have some guys in the top 20-30 around the league, depending on whose rankings you believe.

For those who ignore my ramblings, musings, and just downright hilarious remarks, I have been screaming the praises of Melky "where did you go, I hardly knew ye" Cabrera (I just like this kid, what can I say, I really feel they gave on him way too soon) and Bronson "hell yes I'll play the outfield" Sardinha, Eric "God damn I wish you could catch" Duncan, and Philip "I have a hell of an arm" Hughes.

The farm system is not what it once was, and I wish we had held on to some guys, but it remains apparent that we did hang on to the right guys.

Next year wil not likely bring any "major signings" in the free agent market. I do not believe the Yankees will sign Damon, he is LA of Anehiem via Irvine, San Diego adjacent Angels bound. We may go with our young guns, "I'll make ya famous." Any thoughts?

I'm with Max 41 and Oscar 43 - they both said everything I've been thinking. Thanks, guys.

Actually, I think Oscar has hit on something. One thing I learned with some bemusement regarding internet sports boards is the unwritten rule that civility goes out the window with game threads, which appear to be unfettered expressions of the id. Basically the equivalent of kissing the TV or throwing stuff at it depending on how the game is going.

Yet on a blog like Bronx Banter, game threads are not necessarily designated as such all the time...but they emerge on game nights in the comments section regardless of the subject of the post.

Perhaps separating game threads, or disallowing them, would partially solve the problem. I'm not saying I support this solution, but the same principle is applied in many forums (not just sports ones), where the most contentious discussions are roped off in a "hot zone", that people can participate in at their peril.

Ok then,

Alex, how bout a spell checker man? I went to public school and type like one of Montgomery Burns's monkeys.

I wonder if all the hoopla about Torre isn't really hoopla about Don Zimmer. I mean, Torre's asset has always been his moral authority, an ability to be a kind of beacon for spoiled, selfish, confused, green and headstrong talent. He handles the team and spotlight very well, and we might just be seeing how vital Zimmer was to the in-game strategy that is only one part of Torre's job. It's like that old joke by Bobcat Goldthwait, "Blaming Ronald Reagan for the problems of the country is like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad cheeseburger... neither of 'em are running the show."

Like you, I expect that we'll go with some of our "kids", Stormer. I don't think any of them are future hall of famers, but who says they have to be?

I'd be surprised to see the 4 guys you mentioned in the bigs in '06. I just think they all need more seasoning in the minors! That said, there's guys already down there - Henn, maybe DeSalvo, Colter Bean - and guys up now - Vento and Phillips - who should be given a chance.

I just hope the team doesn't go on one of its patented late-80s acquisitions, paying money for washed-up crap that had one good season years ago. Such crap will be available, unfortunately.

Max, Johnny C:

I have no problem with your posts.

According to Kay, Bubba is in RF today, and Kay wants to know when Torre will stop using Embree.

He advocates Leiter taking over Embree's role.

Wonders never cease. ;-)

Compared to other blogs I've been on, the civility here is unparalleled. My only rule for posting is simple: don't ever write anything that you wouldn't dare say to someone's face.

Everyone here has raised points and others have shot them down, strenuously objecting at times (happened to me). Well, get over it! The knucklehead factor in cyberspace is beyond everyone's control - there's ALWAYS going to be a few bad eggs looking to stir the pot of circular argument (aka arguing for the sake of argument). The most effective tool in eradicating these people is to greet their posts with complete and utter silence. Generally, when someone makes an ass of themself, the post speaks for itself and needs no further comment.

I think it would be an absolute shame for those that run this site to curb posting b/c of the actions of a few.

I advocate a chimp taking over Kay's role. I'm sure Kaat and Singleton would prefer that.

I love lamp

Shaun,

I think that is what makes next year so interesting. I could be wrong, and if I am I will again be paying $75 or more for a freakin' upper deck ticket, but I think George and the "boys" and "girls" have reached critical mass with the payroll. The core is overheating, no?

Imagine you're George, you have, gulp, Pavano coming back, Jaret "Incoming!" Wright, RJ, Jete, Sheff, Arod, you just spent 203-218 million, depending on the source, and you missed the playoffs, what do you do, spend another 50 million. I just don't see it. Even George has a limit, doesn't he?

As far as I can tell, there are no bona fide middle relievers out there to sign, I myself would be adverse to signing any, unless it was another closer, Gordon "type" who will give up closing games to come to the Bronx, "you hear me Wagner, Im talkin' to ya'?" otherwise you dump the Embree's and go with the young guys right from April forward, from April forward, ok one more time, that means a while guys, not one game and out.

I like our chances with a good mix of old and new, a New York Yankee Gumbo!

Alvaro,

I do belive a chimp would be more exciting than Kay, maybe a chimp would at least jump an octive on a double to the wall.

"It's a long, um double, up, well, against the wall, mmm kay, I think, um , yea, Kenny what do you think, mmm kay, double, mmm kay? No? Oh ok, Home run you say, mmm kay? That tied the game, seriously, I wasn't watching, AFLAC! FOX New Series! GM! Buick! Schill! Hmm, pass my aderol and Codene would ya mmm kay?

Hey, as much as I don't like listening to Kay, give him credit, he keeps killing Torre for his inexplicable obsession with Embree.

Stormer,

re: Pavano coming back. This is mere speculation based on rumor and innuendo, but I have a feeling that Carl is not coming back (wishful thinking). It's my impression from the bits of gossip I've read here and there that Pavano regrets coming to New York, that the front office questions his toughness (his inability to fight through an injury with no structural issues and his inability to communicate to the front office during much of his off-season). Perhaps this adds up to a mutual parting of ways in the form of a trade for prospects or another expensive pitcher? Steve Goldman has advocated the move throughout the year, and I think, despite this lost year, there are major league teams who still think he can be a front of the rotation starter. We might get a good return for him.

Kay is biased towards Leiter anyway, that's his buddy. What does Kay know anyway?

Kaat, Singleton, Murcer, and O'Neil all rule. Kay is unbearable to listen to, especially with his stupid ass puns.

BTW, Yanks win 6 - 2 today.

I love how Boston Dirt Dogs keeps referring to Embree as: The Embedded Embree Takes Care of Yankees.

Leiter is better than Embree. That's all you need to know.

Another tangent - Gas now this....
NYTimes (and just noticed today) as become a pay site to view their columnist content. Is anything free anymore.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pavano is included as part of a package (with his contract heavily subsidized) to the Marlins for Pierre and his .320 OBP.

It's hard to say who's actually better. They are both pretty bad.

Player INN W L S K BBI HA ERA WHIP
Embree, Alan RP NYY 49.7 2 5 1 36 14 56 7.067 1.409
Leiter, Al SP NYY 138.3 7 11 0 93 94 150 5.855 1.764

Most of the Times' columnists are awful anyway.

Neither are great, but life on the line, if I have to bring in a a reliever other than TanGorMo (and Tanyon only some of the time), the choice to use Leiter over Embree is an easy one for me.

Fuck the NY Times anyway. I noticed they are pay site this morning too. No way I'm giving money to a company that's a minority partner of the Sawx.

Quick, for all the marbles: Heredia or Embree??

It just bugs me that EVERYTHING cost. Gammons, NYTimes etc. I'd bang my head against the wall if Toaster went paypal on me. I'll be paying for water soon (wait a minute, I already do. Damn)

// That is exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not trying to tell people what to think or what to write, though I would like to ask for as much restraint as is humanly possibly. Look, I curse as much as the next guy, but I try to keep it regulated so that it doesn't become repetitive and boring (and to some, off-putting). //

Thank you for posting this. I don't mind reasoned criticisms of anyone or anything, but the 20th time someone posts "F#%@ you, Joe!" it gets kind of old.

I, too, read that Sheff is out of the outfield for the season. I like Bubba's fielding, and his hitting has been okay as well. What worries me is his baserunning. He's been positively terrible there.

Of course, Kay, a YES employee, is questionning Torre's use of Embree because George is telling him to. Probably has one of them alien-like doo-hickey implants in his brain. Like the one Bob Raissman has.

Embree is my choice, Dimelo. At least he's had some sustained success before. Heredia had what, 1 good season (his '03 with the Reds)?

Seeing the guy has been out since April with an aneurysm in his should all year, I feel bad for pointing out his suckiness, but the stats are the stats.

I would, as I'm sure Rich would too, take Leiter over either.

Any time Bubba starts in place of Sierra or Womack, this is a good thing!

Speaking of Kay - has O'Neill been in the booth since the night he made those jokes about how 'famous' Kay is now, the 'clothing line' and all that? I haven't heard him in a while, but Extra Innings doesn't always carry the YES feed.

Re: Next year.
The infield is covered, the corner spots are covered, rotation wise: Unit, Moose, Wang, and I'd through in Chacon and Small. I doubt Small will continue to be good, so I'd like a 6th starter who could be the long man in the pen. Leiter I think is career wise out of gas. We also have GorMo and Sturtze (he should never start again, it just gets his mechanics/arm out of whack). Behind the plate, Posada, but we need his replacement up/in as well. There's a good nucleus and I think a speedy CF who doesn't embarass himself with a bat would be doable. The Yankees won three straight with a revolving door in left, having one unsettled position isn't a killer.

FWIW, Leiter says he's retiring after this season. Though I suppose he could change his mind.