Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
How Lowe Can You Go?
2008-10-13 12:08
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

The Red Sox figure to win behind Jon Lester this evening. That puts the focus back on the Dodgers and Phillies in the late game. With Cole Hamels lurking as the Phillies' starter for Game 5, the Dodgers need to win tonight just as much as they needed to win last night. Joe Torre is taking his chances with Derek Lowe on three-day's rest rather than turn to the very young Clayton Kershaw or the very old Greg Maddux. Is it the right move? My previews are up on

Comments (89)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-10-13 13:25:52
1.   pistolpete
>> Is it the right move? >>

That remains to be seen, but it's definitely a 'Torre' move.

2008-10-13 13:35:55
2.   Gagne55
Ace on three days rest > #4 on full rest. Plus Kershaw and Maddux both were used out of the pen. Plus Lowe isn't much affected by short rest.
2008-10-13 13:57:41
3.   thelarmis
well, i haven't checked Lowe's stats on 3 days rest, but 'they' do say that it's not that bad for sinker-ballers to pitch on short rest. it's almost good for them to be a little tired, gives their sinker a little more 'sink'. if they have too much rest, they can be a little too strong and the ball stays up. i'm sure, like everything, it's hit & miss, so we'll just have to see. i'm cool with either team in the NL winning, but i'd like to see LA pull out another victory tonight and make a good series out of it. (not that it's not good already, mind you...)

tim over at mlbtraderumors has a Yankees Offseason Outlook post up today. it's pretty good and there's a link to River Ave Blues there. sorry for no tinyurl, but the site is over on the sidebar and i'm sure many of you check mlbtraderumors anyhow...


2008-10-13 13:57:44
4.   Cliff Corcoran
2 Well, the fact that Kershaw and Maddux were both used out of the pen I think was more Torre showing he'd already decided to go with Lowe more than part of his reasoning for using Lowe. As for Lowe = Ace, he was great down the stretch, but he's no ace. And you should read my preview if you think he's unaffected by short rest (in reality, there's not much data to go on, but the recent data disagrees).
2008-10-13 13:59:20
5.   thelarmis
good start to the 2nd, with longoria walking!

i wonder if torre will have kershaw & maddux up in the pen early and use them before regular relievers, if lowe's on a short leash and struggling...

that curve looked a little low. c'mon CC!!!

2008-10-13 13:59:30
6.   Cliff Corcoran
3 I think that bit about sinkerballers is B.S. That said, I favor a 4-man rotation, so I think everyone should be able to pitch on three-day's rest.
2008-10-13 14:00:54
7.   thelarmis
4 hey, look, it's Blake DeWitt here at the Banter! ; )

i need to read your SI preview...

CC with many defensive swings in this AB...

2008-10-13 14:01:37
8.   thelarmis
crawford looked horribly hopeless vs. lester in that AB... : /
2008-10-13 14:03:10
9.   thelarmis
beautiful! PLEASE score!!!
2008-10-13 14:04:35
10.   thelarmis
wow, runner on 3rd can score with less than 2 out? huh, who knew...?! : ~
2008-10-13 14:13:40
11.   thelarmis
total bollocks. how does theo always hit the frickin' jackpot. mark kotsay - seriously?! feh.
2008-10-13 14:16:59
12.   ms october
ha, take that captain c#@%
2008-10-13 14:17:00
13.   Mattpat11
"Good Eye Varitek!"

The ball hit the ground four feet from the plate.

2008-10-13 14:17:15
14.   thelarmis
siddown, vagitek. that was a total strike. nice pitch, garza!

ah, well, maybe a tad inside, but good call, nonetheless : )

get outta this, kid...

2008-10-13 14:18:08
15.   thelarmis
12 13 yay, company! : )

13 that's why i've got it on mute!

good job getting outta that mess, garza. whew...

2008-10-13 14:18:17
16.   ms october
the only thing i can think about with the whole torre going with a sinkerballer on 4 days rest in the playoffs brings back very painful memories of last year
2008-10-13 14:20:04
17.   ms october
16 i mean short rest - either way painful memories

15 you've really been holding down the fort during these games the last few dyas thelarmis - cheers!

2008-10-13 14:23:15
18.   thelarmis
anuva good start; me likey leadoff men getting on!

AKI goes wall ball!!!

17 thanks, ms. october! i feel like i'm talking to myself half the time... : ~

2008-10-13 14:26:23
19.   thelarmis

wahoo! 4-0 Rays!!!

2008-10-13 14:26:59
20.   ms october
boss junior !!!

i was really wondering when lester was going to have a clunker - surely he was due -and today is as good as any.

18 ah well - at least you're fond of who you were bantering with.

2008-10-13 14:27:18
21.   thelarmis
holy crap, 5 homers already this postseason for Upton! what's the record - Beltran & Bonds, with 8?
2008-10-13 14:28:23
22.   underdog
There is a chat for this game on Cardboard Gods, too, and it's not all pro-Red Sox even tho good ol' Josh is the manager of it. Welcome to drop in there.

Though, as for me, I'm trying to crank on work so I can take a break to watch the LA-Philly game.

2008-10-13 14:30:43
23.   underdog
Cliff Corcoran, Purposeful Red Sox Jinxer™ . ;-)
2008-10-13 14:31:00
24.   thelarmis
absolutely. frickin'. beautiful!!!
2008-10-13 14:32:18
25.   Bob Timmermann
Cliff is looking for the "Undo" key.
2008-10-13 14:33:42
26.   thelarmis
22 thanks for the heads up, underdog. i'll probably stick close to home (read: stay here at the banter), but i might check in on some comments. it's getting to crunch time for me - i need to practice a little marimba, eat dinner and get to my gig, so i'm gonna be rushing around from here on in.

good luck vs. philthy tonight. i'll be rootin' for ya! i'd like to see that at 2-2. who knows, maybe Hamels will look like Lester does today...

2008-10-13 14:36:15
27.   thelarmis
i wish they'd show the blonde girl in the pink dress and cool hat more in the bud light commercial...
2008-10-13 14:40:54
28.   thelarmis
ha! that was pretty hysterical with the coke guy plopping down his tray right in front of that fan and dropping one in his lap : )
2008-10-13 14:43:15
29.   thelarmis
Wheaties McIronside crushed another one into that godforsaken wall. CC played it nicely; just a long single...
2008-10-13 14:45:11
30.   thelarmis
if Garza let his sideburns grow into a beard, he'd look quite a bit like Freddy Garcia, methinks...

Ortiz, still looks like Florida Evans from Good Times. definitely not a good thing...

2008-10-13 14:46:17
31.   thelarmis
nice work. strike him out or get a DP. thank you, please!
2008-10-13 14:47:59
32.   ms october
30 yeah and also with a little longer hair in the back and garza could like a lot like garcia

and definitely flo evans for ortiz!

2008-10-13 14:48:02
33.   thelarmis
ah, where's jetah when ya need him? ; )
2008-10-13 14:50:08
34.   ms october
uh buck starting your swing early lotsa times means you are compensating for a slowing bat.
2008-10-13 14:50:26
35.   3rd gen yankee fan
Woo hoo go Rays!!! (quick post form work)
2008-10-13 14:50:53
36.   thelarmis
i never thought i'd see a batting stance that rivaled the horrificness (<--- probably not a word!) of craig counsell, but pukilis has managed to pull it off. it is soooo difficult to watch this fugly sumbitch bat... : /
2008-10-13 14:52:40
37.   ms october
nicely done garza.

36 definitely. how or why you even end up in a stance like that is beyond me.

2008-10-13 14:56:35
38.   thelarmis
more leadoff men on! suh-weet!!!
2008-10-13 14:58:26
39.   thelarmis
37 ken griffey, jr. still has the sweetest swing i've ever seen in my life. it's pure perfection and absolutely breathtaking...
2008-10-13 15:09:30
40.   thelarmis
holy heat, garza! nice job, kid!
2008-10-13 15:17:41
41.   thelarmis
again with the leadoff man on for the rays! excellent!
2008-10-13 15:18:20
42.   thelarmis
oh crap. beautiful bunt by pena against the shift. upton with a bad baserunning blunder. feh!
2008-10-13 15:18:53
43.   thelarmis
big man pena with a bunt and now stolen base. i like the aggressiveness!
2008-10-13 15:21:50
44.   ms october
c'mon rays - need to keep building that lead.
2008-10-13 15:21:55
45.   OldYanksFan
The Rays are actually fun to watch. They have been playing well under the pressure.
2008-10-13 15:23:18
46.   thelarmis
44 45 please stop interrupting me! i was finally starting to get through to myself... ; )
2008-10-13 15:23:40
47.   alex 7
Derek Lowe was 9th in the NL in ERA and IP. He was 4th in WHIP. Seventh in K:BB ratio. How is he not an ace? Out of, what, 75 starting pitchers?

An ace is one of the 30 best pitchers in baseball, no? He's not in the top 10, perhaps, but he's an ace.

2008-10-13 15:27:43
48.   3rd gen yankee fan
I thought an ace was just the best guy on the staff. ?
2008-10-13 15:29:48
49.   thelarmis
finally, the little runt didn't crush the ball...
2008-10-13 15:29:56
50.   underdog
47 + ERA of less than 1.50 for last two months.

Of course, now I've likely jinxed him for sure.

And I was telling people Chad B was really our ace and then he came out and was terrible in game 2. I'll just keep my mouth shut.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-10-13 15:29:58
51.   OldYanksFan
Lotta chat on these Nets about Jake Peavey and the Yankees via trade. Thoughts on Peavey, and worth giving up young talent for?
2008-10-13 15:30:58
52.   thelarmis
48 then, folks will speak of a "true" ace (TM). ie. wang is not a "true" ace, though he might be the ace of the staff. by default...
2008-10-13 15:38:57
53.   thelarmis
49 oops! i had the wrong batter. wasn't paying close attention. my bad.

50 neh, you're okay - you're on a yankees board, so your jinxing won't count! : )

51 hey OYF! i don't think peavy's the answer. he's already had some injury and off field behavior problems, though i don't think either are around right now. he's been pitching at a pitchers park in the NL and hasn't lit it up in his 2 postseason starts. he's gonna require a lot of good prospects and his option picked up. others can, will and have done MUCH better research than me, but ultimately, i think we'll have to give up too much - prospects, money - for too long. i'll pass. however, if we do indeed end up with him, i don't think it'll be too very terrible. he's certainly a power arm that can give us a lot of quality innings...

peavy's from alabama and the Peavy music company is in Merridian, Miss. i wonder if he's related. doubt it, but - hmmmm...

2008-10-13 15:41:33
54.   thelarmis
pujols finally had elbow surgery. he should be fine and ready for spring training. hell, i'm just about ready for ST!
2008-10-13 15:46:25
55.   3rd gen yankee fan
Paul Byrd = white flag of surrender?
2008-10-13 15:47:06
56.   Just fair
Hey, this looks promising. Hopefully it stays unclose. : )
2008-10-13 15:48:35
57.   alex 7
Peavy is an ace on the backside of his prime. Only 27 years old. 3.8 era outside of Petco though so a legit concern that he's not a dominant ace worth selling the farm for.

Dodgers fan here, so I don't know the Yanks as well as you guys do. it seems they are not one great arm away. Would it make more sense for them to pick up 2 solid pitchers and a solid hitter instead of an ace?

2008-10-13 15:54:25
58.   thelarmis
57 all good points. i'd like to pass on peavy.

i can't remember exactly, but a year or two ago there was a good feature article on Garza in Baseball Weekly (USA Today Sports Weekly paper). something about him and his girl having a kid when they were young and facing all kinds adversity. i'm not sure the rest of the story, but i remember it painted him as a very good, strong kid, as stories like that are wont to do. it seems the only thing the announcers talk about it is Garza being emotional and somewhat of a loose canon. i'm sure they could've done more research on the kid...

2008-10-13 15:56:28
59.   thelarmis
fines for the NL Game 3 fracas were doled out today. nothing too very major...
2008-10-13 16:05:00
60.   thelarmis
funny how there's no mention of byrd's HGH use in just last years LCS vs. the shit sox. if this was the Yankees playing and Byrd was on our team, they'd be beating that topic to death... : ~
2008-10-13 16:06:06
61.   thelarmis
once again - i love the rays continuing to get the leadoff man on base! esp in scoring position : )
2008-10-13 16:06:58
62.   3rd gen yankee fan
IwaMUra clap clap clapclapclap
2008-10-13 16:07:27
63.   thelarmis
bossman jr. locked up on a nice slider, couldn't get the runner to 3rd...
2008-10-13 16:13:02
64.   thelarmis
alright, well you people won't have me to kick around anymore - i gotta go to woik...


enjoy the NL Game...

2008-10-13 16:21:34
65.   Chyll Will
64 I have to produce some album cover art for you; a solo joint from a member of the Bronx Banter All-Stars. You've been a rock the last few days!
2008-10-13 16:22:35
66.   williamnyy23
51 53 It depends on what you have to give up, but Peavy is definitely ace material and someone the Yankees should pursue if they lose out on C.C.

Since 2003, Peavy has started at least 27 games per season and had an ERA+ of at least 134 on four occassions. His career WHIP and K/9inn are also ace-like. The Petco splits do give a little pause, but in three of the stadium's five seasons (2004-05 and 2007), Peavy was identical on the home and road.

57 At 27, I am not sure I'd say Peavy is on the back-end of his prime. As for the Yankees, they are an 89 win team expecting to have about 40 more starts from Wang and Joba, so yes, I think they are one good starter away from ranking among the top contenders.

2008-10-13 16:25:35
67.   Just fair
Dusty represents the double play guild. Nice.
2008-10-13 16:37:12
68.   Just fair
It's a damn shame Baldelli hasn't been able to play 150+ games over the last several years. It's good to see em' smash one.
2008-10-13 16:39:41
69.   williamnyy23
68 Baldelli will likely be a free agent this season. I wouldn't mind the Yankees rolling the dice on him.
2008-10-13 16:50:40
70.   Just fair
69 I hear ya'. But I think rolling the dice is a understatement. Is it worth a shot? I guess it depends on the money and years. I can't imagine anyone rolling out the red carpet for him.
2008-10-13 16:51:51
71.   Just fair
70 "an understatement" d'oh.
2008-10-13 16:53:08
72.   OldYanksFan
Red Sox in a bit of a hole now. Jeez...
2008-10-13 16:57:42
73.   Chyll Will
72 replace "in" with "are" and I second >;) (all those shots were bombs, huh?)
2008-10-13 17:10:23
74.   vockins
Peavey? I like the Butcher and the VTM series, but the Bandit, the Rage, etc., are garbage. There's not a good sound anywhere in those things.
2008-10-13 18:00:32
75.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
just in.. 9-1??? yeahhhh boyeeee! Sox need some new windshield wipers cause they ain't seeing things too clear now!!
2008-10-13 18:14:36
76.   tommyl
What the hell is Juan Pierre doing in this game?!

Also, big Game 4 start, sinkerballer on short rest, this seems familiar somehow...

2008-10-13 19:01:24
77.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
everyone gone? MannyB continues to do the monster mash..what a hitter!
2008-10-13 19:15:21
78.   williamnyy23
It may work out, but Manuel just bunted with one of his hottest hitters so he could then replace a good hitter (Dobbs) with a lesser one (Feliz).
2008-10-13 19:21:18
79.   williamnyy23
Feliz pops up, but a WP plates the tying run. Still, the decision was such a poor one that I can't even come close to imagining what Manuel was thinking. Judging by Victorino's posture on the bench, he didn't seem too pleased with the decision either.
2008-10-13 20:18:31
80.   trainwreck
2008-10-13 20:24:39
81.   williamnyy23
Both teams trying to overcome some bad post season managing.
2008-10-13 20:29:45
82.   trainwreck
2008-10-13 20:47:57
83.   3rd gen yankee fan
Manny looks cute in pigtails.
2008-10-13 22:22:10
84.   thelarmis
83 i generally wear mine in a pony tail (though it's down now...) : )

82 condolences to you, trainwreck. and underdog, if he's still around.

i'm just getting in from work and seeing the score. haven't checked out what happened yet. i was pulling for LA tonight. looks like the Phitin's are gonna be in the Serious. i sure hope it's vs. Tampa...


Jazz Tokyo - you around?

65 thanks, Chyll! hey, i'd buy that album! post it at your website... ; )

2008-10-13 22:36:00
85.   thelarmis
according to mlbtraderumors, damaso marte will be a Type A free agent. i think maybe it was Cliff who wrote that marte was actually pretty good and his contract will be alright for next year. (i dunno, i know i recently read something good about marte if he comes back...) but, if we lose him, i'm thinking we'd get draft picks. i'm sure someone will correct me, if i'm wrong...
2008-10-13 22:42:40
86.   thelarmis
pete abe had some posts today. he mentions meachem could be on thin ice and it'll be addressed at the organizational meetings coming up. i really hope he's replaced as 3B Coach. pete had some good points the other day of why it won't be Willie, but i definitely think it's prudent we have a new coach in the left box next season. steinbrenner needs to send ol' bobby back down to the minors for old times sake! : )
2008-10-13 22:46:12
87.   thelarmis
for those not checkin' out lohud lately:

More solid work today for Hughes: 5 4 1 1 1 3. In two AFL starts, he has allowed one run over 10 innings and struck out 10. He has been working on his cutter and it appears to be a pitch he can move forward with.

he faced Max Scherzer today...

2008-10-14 02:44:56
88.   Yu-Hsing Chen
Thanks Joe Torre.

so now it seems that either a team will win the title the first time it not just made the playoffs, but freaking finished above .500 ... or the team that have lost more than any other team in the history of baseball, have made the playoffs fewer times in 100 years than the Yankees in the wild card era. and only managed 1 WS dispite having Mike Schimdt and Steve Carlton... WOW

2008-10-14 03:21:19
89.   williamnyy23
Joe Torre managed a pretty poor game, mostly centered around his use of the bullpen (as he did in game 2). I guess Joe brought all the old baggage to LA too.

It was interesting to see all of the second guessing of Torre in the post game press onference. You can tell by how much he bristled that Torre has grown used to the indifferent treatment he must have been getting all season in LA.

Of course, Manuel managed a pretty bad game as well, but thanks to Victorino and Stairs, we don't have to get into that.

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