Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Cashed Out
2008-10-01 06:29
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Over at Was Watching, Steve Lombardi isn't thrilled by the news that Brian Cashman is sticking around as the Yankees' general manager.

2008-10-01 06:47:17
1.   Knuckles
Meh, I stopped reading that guy after it was clear he has an agenda and will not listen to reason. He backs up his points with stats, yes, but many of them are cherry-picked and ignore worthy data that support viewpoints not his own.

Hence, why I stick to the Banter and occasionally peruse NoMaas for giggles and RLYW for crunched numbers.

2008-10-01 07:16:53
2.   Bob B
I'm not a big Fan of Lombardi either but the truth is there. The Yankees have not improved in any year since Cashman took over and the deterioration has accelerated to where they're not competitive with two and maybe three teams in their own division. The years of feasting on Tampa Bay are gone. Toronto was almost better than the Yankees this year and, if the keep their free agents, the Yankees could be fourth in their own division next year. I know it's hard for a fan to take, but Cashman has delivered a seriously flawed product and I'm not confident that he'll make the right moves to improve it.
2008-10-01 07:21:15
3.   RZG
2 So you're ready to go on record that in 2009 the Yanks will not be competitive with Boston and Tampa and likely finish 4th or lower in the division?
2008-10-01 07:24:07
4.   Shaun P
Steve is a great guy. I really enjoy some of his writing, especially stuff about his kids because he, like me, is a parent with two younger kids.

But when it comes to Cashman - and Phil Hughes - I feel the same way Knuckles does. I avoid those pieces at WW.

2008-10-01 07:28:53
5.   vockins
Mike Mussina is/was pretty good.

ARod's pretty good.

Matsui's good.

Bobby Abreu for garbage is pretty good.

There's more, but I think most of the problem for the Yankees these days is that the rest of the division isn't going to roll over and die like they used to earlier in the decade. The problem isn't that the GM is inadequate.

2008-10-01 07:35:32
6.   ny2ca2dc
To borrow a cliche, Steve uses stats (and discrete facts) like a drunk uses a lightpole - for support, not illumination.

If I had the time and inclination, I'd take his article and substitute names and places and moves with various of Billy Beane's mistakes. Hence one could prove Beane is also a bum.

2008-10-01 08:25:52
7.   Max
6 Steve is a good guy and dedicated blogger, and I don't think it's bad that he's a contrarian once in a while.

I agree, though, that I'd like to see more context and/or a similar evaluation applied to other GMs. Simply refuting other people's points by saying "Cash has $200m+ !! The other GMs don't!" is a very lazy way of refuting people who disagree with his position.

2008-10-01 08:39:23
8.   Dimelo
1 I agree with you.

I think Steve makes some valid discussion points, but he doesn't want to discuss anything. He's way too absolute in his thinking. Anytime you don't share his viewpoint then he accuses you of having blinders on.

He makes a point of saying that if you don't like something about him then don't come back, so I took his advice. He loves to stir the pot. I wonder if he does it so that he can keep his hit rate up. He's either gonna rip ARod, Hughes, or Cashman about every 3 posts. Though he has been tame with ARod lately. But I can't say the same for myself.

2008-10-01 08:39:23
9.   Dimelo
1 I agree with you.

I think Steve makes some valid discussion points, but he doesn't want to discuss anything. He's way too absolute in his thinking. Anytime you don't share his viewpoint then he accuses you of having blinders on.

He makes a point of saying that if you don't like something about him then don't come back, so I took his advice. He loves to stir the pot. I wonder if he does it so that he can keep his hit rate up. He's either gonna rip ARod, Hughes, or Cashman about every 3 posts. Though he has been tame with ARod lately. But I can't say the same for myself.

2008-10-01 08:49:39
10.   Mattpat11
I think it goes without saying that I agree with his general point. I do think Cashman could be fine if you hire someone to handle pitching for him though.

7 My answer to that is, if Brian Cashman is just like every other general manager, why is it so important that Brian Cashman is the GM of the Yankees?

2008-10-01 08:55:33
11.   williamnyy23
While you can make a case against Cashman, Steve rarely uses compelling logic in making his argument. His biggest hang-up is that Cashman shouldn't deserve any credit for the 5 WS the Yankees have gone to during his tenure. In spite of countless evidence why that is a silly position to take, he seems to repeat it every few days. It's one thing to base a contrarian opinion upon a sound argument, and another to simply rant.
2008-10-01 09:00:06
12.   Schteeve
The fact that Steve Lombardi bans people from commenting at his site (me) because they voice their disagreement with his opinions, is all I need to know about the guy.
2008-10-01 09:10:55
13.   JL25and3
The biggest flaw in Lombardi's argument, as I see it, is a very common view among Yankee fans. It's the idea that a team that gets eliminated in the playoffs is somehow more fundamentally flawed - "worse" - than a team that wins the World Series. You can't build a team that's designed to win a short series.

The single biggest problem the Yankees had in the playoffs last year was Chien-Ming Wang. Anyone going to suggest that having him on the team was a mistake?

2008-10-01 09:11:55
14.   NetShrine
Schteeve - No one has ever been banned from WasWatching because of posting comments that disagree with anything that was authored there.

People get banned because they are rude, or deranged, or are looking to make some trouble for other commentors, or they made libelous comments about the site and/or its author - either at the blog or on their own blog.

2008-10-01 10:04:02
15.   Sliced Bread
call me old fashioned but for $2 million per year shouldn't Cash be expected to play a little 1b, backup catcher, mop up relief or something?

as you were then...

2008-10-01 10:31:31
16.   liam

i dont understand why you argue with Lombardi on his site. i refuse to get an account on his site because i feel like his arguments suck, and i feel like i could get trapped arguing facts against his whimsical opinions until my head popped off my neck in disgust.

the site was great until neyer linked to him and then he decided that he was going to be the yankee fan version of the national inquirer.

2008-10-01 10:42:30
17.   ChrisS
In other news, water is wet.

WW is a waste of time. His hatred of certain players and people really gets tiring.

I don't know about banning, but I know for a fact that he's deleted posts where he gets shown up in the comments.

2008-10-01 10:55:11
18.   Sliced Bread
NY Post says Johan just had knee surgery after pitching the other day with a torn meniscus.

Talk about playing through the pain. Santana's a stud.

2008-10-01 10:58:35
19.   Sliced Bread
and he asked for the ball too, on 3 days rest
2008-10-01 11:09:57
20.   williamnyy23
16 I rarely if ever visit the site, not to mention post comments. I figured I would check it out to see the reaction to Cashman's resigning and couldn't help myself from refuting what were obviously very weak arguments. Ultimately, however, you are correct. It doesn't make sense to debate a topic when one side refuses to use reason.

18 Johan and C.C. really do have fire in their bellies. Considering that CC's belly is much bigger, I think the Yankees will be better off if they wind up with him ;)

2008-10-01 11:10:56
21.   Rob Middletown CT
13 Another key failure was Joba, who couldn't handle the bugs. I'm thrilled to have him on the team, but that one night he didn't get it done. So, two of the best pitchers on the team - two guys you absolutely want on your team - were big reasons they got knocked out last year. I don't know where to file that but under "shit happens."

Cashman's made mistakes - particularly in his attempt to find pitching (Jaret Wright? Oy. Worse decision than Pavano, IMO). But he's also ran into some ugly luck at times. The Vasquez trade, for instance. That was a good trade, fer goodness sakes, but it blew up in his face. The failure to draft decently for years is partly on him (and he's acknowledged that). This year's draft, one the other hand, may end up being a disaster even though the Yanks appear to have handled it properly (they went after the right guy with their 1st pick, and the guy just decided he was going to college no matter what). He's made good trades, so-so ones and some bad ones (I'm still annoyed about the Ted Lilly). On balance, however, I think he's pretty good and has a sound plan in place now.

As for Lombardi... he hates on Cashman, ARod and Hughes, mostly I think because he gets a rise out of people that way. I rarely check his site and have never registered there, but I've seen enough to know that.

2008-10-01 11:39:30
22.   Dimelo
20 Definitely agree with this, with respect to WW - "It doesn't make sense to debate a topic when one side refuses to use reason".

I know you and I have had our disagreements on ARod and his relative worth, but it's still not as a bad as dealing with WW Staff. He rarely, if ever, will concede a point.

I do think he brings up some great points, but then he mixes it in with his opinion. His opinions, I feel, he often confuses them as fact. Javier Vasquez is a great example, if you say that was a good trade then you are a Cashman apologist. I don't remember seeing anyone say that was a bad trade, but as soon as he fails then its Cash's fault. His stance is always "it's Cash's fault", I think that's a simplistic way of looking at things. Even knowing what I know today, I still think that was a trade that had to be made and up until the all-star break Javy was a good pitcher for the Yanks.

I think Cliff and Steve are both pretty savy with their use of certain SABR stats, but where Cliff differs is that he presents you the information/numbers and people discuss it in the comments. Cliff will offer his opinion in the comments, when we are discussing the facts that he presented and we are giving our opinion. But, I never see people getting contentious with Cliff as I would see with WW Staff.

2008-10-01 12:25:38
23.   tommyl
Well its true Cash inherited a nucleus to build from, but to say those teams would have made the playoffs or won the Serious every year without any steering is pretty unfair. I mean you can argue that the Justice trade won them the 2000 World Series. Like any GM he's made some good and some bad moves. But he hasn't done anything truly stupid, like trading the farm for Erik Bedard. The worst move he's made was the Pavano one, and many teams wanted Pavano at the time. It didn't work out, but its hard to go back to then and say it was going to be as bad as it was.

I think Cash is great, but my primary reason for wanting him back is to have some continuity in this rebuilding plan. With the junior Steinbrenners in control, I fear that a new GM would want to make a "splash" and we'd be seeing a bunch of FA signings, lost draft picks and half of our young talent shipped away on quick fixes.

2008-10-01 13:20:02
24.   NetShrine
ChrisS - The only reason why posts have been removed or not posted at WasWatching are for the following reasons:

1. The post violates the community standards.

2. The post was accidentally grabbed by a SPAM filter and deleted before it could be recovered.

3. The post was made to an entry that had some sort of publishing issue and had to be removed and then republished, losing any posts made to it when it was first published with the technical issue.

The third case is rare. But, when began publishing their New York Baseball Today Video clips there were some posts that had to be redone, and, if someone made a quick comment to them the minute they were published, the post may have been lost in the republish.

But, a post has never been deleted because it differs from the opinion of the author (within the guidelines of the community standards).

2008-10-01 16:57:25
25.   Jeb
25 Hey Steve.

My take on all this is that we need Steve Lombardi at WW because he offers a differing viewpoint about Cash. I want someone to challenge the normal viewpoints about Cash (and Phil Hughes for that matter). The Nomaas guys celebrate Cash like he's the Messiah and Steve demonizes him. I do think that he backs up his opinions with numbers too. It's like a lot of things in life, no one has to read it.

I am a bit ambivalent about having Cash back because I see all the mistakes and I read a quote from him today which suggests CC isn't on the radar. But I also see changes that are occurring and I like most of them because it seems like Cash really wants to build a team.

Oh, and I don't post very often on WW because for some reason it's difficult to log in, unlike here. Maybe it's the fairpole software that makes the banter so great, but WW always seems to not recognize me, and I'm sure I haven't been banned because I've only posted several times (usually in support of Steve).

2008-10-02 05:53:28
26.   NetShrine
Jeb - thanks for the kind words, etc.!

Are you using IE as a browser? That could be the issue. E-Mail me if you want and we can talk about it. Thanks.

2008-10-02 06:31:17
27.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
25 I'm not sure I agree at all about CC "not being on the radar." My take on the quote is that he's very much on the radar, but that Cashman is aware of the reality that there may be considerations beyond years and dollars for him, something that Cashman is undoubtedly more likely to be aware of than any of us, regardless of what's reported in the media or by whom.

Sorry for the preposterously and poorly constructed sentence.

But hopefully you get my point :-)

I truly do think that beyond a certain point (which in CC's case is $100 million - no one will offer him less and hope to sign him) it's extremely possible that it's "enough" for him to take whatever he perceives as a better situation for him.

That may be naive, but that's what I think.

As for WW...ugh. I got into it on a thread there once and that was it. To the many points above, they never concede a point, usually at the expense of logic and in the face of facts.

2008-10-02 06:32:38
28.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
Oh, another thing about Cashman and the nucleus he "inherited" - has everyone forgotten his various roles in the front office prior to becoming GM? And isn't it even a little bit possible he had something to do with obtaining and keeping the guys who would become that nucleus?

Nah...nevermind. ;)

2008-10-02 06:55:13
29.   YankeeInMichigan
Cash inherited a Yankee team that was poised for the long run. Tino, Brosius, Knoblauch and O'Neil and were all approaching their declines, but the reinforcements were lined up: Johnson, Henson, Jiminez and Spencer/Ledee. Then in 2000, Johnson, Jiminez and Spencer all suffered serious injuries, Cashman wisely recognized Ledee's limitations and spun him for Justice, and Henson became Henson. So Cashman was thrust into free-agent-frenzy panic mode. He still, however, must bear part of the blame for the team's failure to re-stock on position players.
2008-10-02 07:37:04
30.   Schteeve
14 yawn.
2008-10-02 08:11:01
31.   YankeeInMichigan
10 Because besides having above-average GM acumen, Cashman has the rare ability to "manage" ownership. This skill was especially evident during George's bombastic days, and it should prove useful during the reign of Hank as well.

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.