Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Los Angeles Angels of Anahiem III: Jobber Edition
2008-09-08 15:52
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Untitled A "jobber," in pro wrestling terminology, is a no-name wrestler whose primary purpose is to give the popular heroes and villains someone to beat in between hyped-up grudge matches. At this point in the 2008 season, the Yankees are nothing but a jobber. Of course, the jobber can't let on that he's only in the ring so that the more famous wrestler has something to do, so they strut about and flex their muscles just the same as the other guy. Joe Girardi has become quite practiced at this, but much like Iron Mike Sharpe or Leaping Lanny Poffo, he's not really fooling anybody.

In this week's three-game series in Anaheim, the Yankees could be the jobber against whom the Angels clinch the AL West. Our own Bobby "The Brain" Timmermann believes that could make the Halos the first team to clinch a division against the Yankees since the Blue Jays did so in 1985 (though, unlike those Jays, the Angels won't be eliminating the Yankees in the process). The Angels magic number entering this series is three. Any combination of Angels wins or Rangers loses totaling three will give the Angels their fourth AL West title in the last five years.

The Yankees could also be the jobber against whom Francisco "K-Rod" Rodriguez ties or even breaks Bobby Thigpen's 18-year-old single-season saves record. Thigpen saved 57 games for the White Sox in 1990. Rodriguez has 55 saves so far this year. Heck, it's entirely possible that Rodriguez could tie the record and clinch the division all at once against the Yankees. That's pretty special. It's a good thing MLB sent one of their most talented jobbers to take the fall.

The Yankees remain mildly interesting because of their starting pitchers. Carl Pavano will make his fourth consecutive start tonight facing Jon Garland. Hot prospect Alfredo Aceves will make his first major league start tomorrow against Jered Weaver, who was pushed back a day after accidentally cutting his hand in on the bench in the visitors dugout at Comerica Park last Tuesday. Wednesday will find Andy Pettitte, whose Yankee career could be winding down, back on the bump against Ervin Santana.

The Yankees' primary interest, however, will likely be in scouting pending free agents Garland, first baseman Mark Teixeira, and perhaps even left fielder and former Yankee Juan Rivera. I don't expect the Yankees to show much interest in Garland, though he could be useful as a league-average innings eater if Pettitte doesn't return, or Rivera, who is yet another former Yankee farmhand whose reluctance to draw walks undermines his other talents, but they'll certainly be in the mix on Teixeira, a Gold Glove defender and switch-hitter who has hit .360/.441/.610 since being acquired from Atlanta. Of course, given those credentials, his $12.5 million salary this year, and his agent, Scott Boras, the Yankees may have to take out a second mortgage on the new Stadium to meet Teixeira's price.

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim

2008 Record: 86-56 (.606)
2008 Pythagorean Record: 77-65 (.544)

Manager: Mike Scioscia
General Manager: Tony Reagins

Home Ballpark (multi-year Park Factors): Angel Stadium

Who's Replaced Whom:

Sean Rodriguez (minors) has replaced Howie Kendrick (DL)
Brandon Wood (minors) has replaced Maicer Izturis (DL)
Darren O'Day (minors) has replaced Shane Loux (DL)

25-man Roster:

1B - Mark Teixeira (S)
2B - Sean Rodriguez (R)
SS - Brandon Wood (R)
3B - Chone Figgins (S)
C - Mike Napoli (R)
RF - Vladimir Guerrero (R)
CF - Torii Hunter (R)
LF - Juan Rivera (R)
DH - Garret Anderson (L)


S - Gary Matthews Jr. (OF)
R - Robb Quinlan (3B/1B)
S - Reggie Willits (OF)
S - Erick Aybar (IF)
R - Jeff Mathis (C)
S - Kendry Morales (1B)*
R - Ryan Budde (C)*


R - John Lackey
L - Joe Saunders
R - Jon Garland
R - Ervin Santana
R - Jered Weaver


R - Francisco Rodriguez
R - Scot Shields
R - Jose Arredondo
R - Justin Speier
L - Darren Oliver
R - Darren O'Day
R - Moseley, Dustin*
R - Jason Bulger*
R - Kevin Jepsen*

15-day DL: R - Howie Kendrick (2B), S - Maicer Izturis (IF), R - Shane Loux
60-day DL: R - Kelvim Escobar

*September call-up

Typical Lineup:

S - Chone Figgins (3B)
L - Garret Anderson (LF)
S - Mark Teixeira (1B)
R - Vladimir Guerrero (RF)
R - Torii Hunter (CF)
R - Juan Rivera (DH)
R - Mike Napoli (C)
R - Brandon Wood (SS)
R - Sean Rodriguez (2B)

Comments (187)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-09-08 17:21:59
1.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
My Spidey-Sense says to stay away from Teixeira..but I'm converted on CC. Give him 6 for 120!

Rays blowing it against the BoSox tonight..sigh...

2008-09-08 17:30:45
2.   Cliff Corcoran
1 Teixeira's a lesser hitter on the road, but seems to mash at home no matter which ballpark he calls home. His trip through Atlanta and LA has proven he's not just an Arlington phenomenon.

I still think of all the mistakes the Yankees have made this decade, not ponying up the cash for Carlos Beltran has been the most harmful (yes, more harmful than signing Pavano). The Yankees have pitching up and down their system, but they need to populate their line-up with free agents, and Teixeira is one of the best they'll get a chance to sign.

2008-09-08 17:33:29
3.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
2 I got ya on Beltran, but as much as Tex can mash, the Yanks look awfully weak up the middle..unless you think Tex and A-Rod can make up for putting all-glove/no-hit Melky back in Center...
2008-09-08 17:50:11
4.   Raf
3 No worries, Damon should be manning CF next year.
2008-09-08 17:54:29
5.   cult of basebaal
0 i don't remember Inigo Montoya being so damn buff in Princess Bride ... must have been before he hit the bottle again
2008-09-08 18:12:48
6.   Just fair
5 You mean Andre the Giant? : )
2008-09-08 18:15:57
7.   Schteeve
But will Jobber pitch the 8th!!!!?
2008-09-08 18:19:24
8.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Paps Ks Rocco with two on in the bottom 8th..rally over...Sox soon to be 1/2 out
2008-09-08 18:25:23
9.   ms october
nice write-up cliff - and thanks for the continued strong series previews even though this season is caput.

but man do i dislike wrestling - i remember having to watch a lot of it when my brother and i were little kids and we had to take turns choosing the show for the night and he always found a way to make us watch wrestling - and i just never got it. though i can see the yanks as the "jobber" role, which isn't much fun.

2008-09-08 18:30:01
10.   ms october
the first (or at least the first that i have seen) girardi is safe for next season stories are out.
2008-09-08 18:36:00
11.   JL25and3
Leaping Lanny Poffo is like Tommy Aaron, Vince Dimaggio, and all the other Zeppos of the world.
2008-09-08 18:38:51
12.   Johnny Nucleo
Good metaphor, but the Yanks are a bit more like Paul Orndorff or the Junkyard Dog of the late '80's; great name, still potentially dangerous, but clearly playing out the string. The real jobbers are teams like the Royals and Athletics. Barry O and Iron Mike Sharpe approve this message.
2008-09-08 18:51:01
13.   Just fair
Too....many....wrestling references. For some reason I just told myself that Papelbon looks (and acts) like Rowdy Roddy Piper. Now I like him even less.
2008-09-08 19:05:02
14.   williamnyy23
2 How has it been harmful. The Yankees achilles heel since they decided to pass on Beltran has been pitching. I don't think Beltran would have really made the difference in any season before this one because the Yankees offense was always very strong. Also, except for 2006, Beltran has been pretty good but not great (OPS+ of 96, 126 and 124). Furthermore, this season when the Yankees were in the most need of offense, Damon has pretty much matched Beltran. When you consider Melky's RZR was even higher than Beltran's, the Yankees might not have even been that much worse off there either.

Finally, one post script, in 2006, Damon had a higher RZR and OOZ than Beltran.

2008-09-08 19:05:45
15.   Mattpat11
Speaking of jobbers, I'll be watching Raw tonight, stopping only to see Jeter's AB.

13 Ultimate Warrior, really.

2008-09-08 19:07:29
16.   williamnyy23
As if there weren't enough reasons to be unhappy with this season, I offer the following:

Jose Tabata with AA Altona:

97 PAs/.348/.402/.562 with 8 SBs in 8 attempts.

2008-09-08 19:11:23
17.   Mattpat11
Is jeter's walk rate over te last two months way up?
2008-09-08 19:15:48
18.   williamnyy23
17 His only really bad walk month was April, which obviously made a bad and lasting impression. He has been pretty normal until this month when he has walked 8 times in 34 PAs. He had walked 7 times in all of August.
2008-09-08 19:17:57
19.   randym77
I think Beltran would have made a difference because he can hit as well as play solid defense.

Bernie's decline on defense was clearly visible for years before they actually did anything about it. And then they did things like run Tony Womack out there.

Bernie's defense killed us the last couple of years. And Torre couldn't resist putting him out there when the alternative was Bubba Crosby or Aaron Guiel.

Remember that time when Torre pulled Abreu out of CF and put in Bernie as a LIDR? Arrrghhh.

2008-09-08 19:18:20
20.   williamnyy23
Gary Sheffield hit the 250,000th HR of off Gio Gonzalez tonight. He also hit the 249,999th HR of Gonzalez.
2008-09-08 19:23:33
21.   williamnyy23
19 He can play solid defense, but in 2006 Damon had better defensive metrics. Also, Melky has outrated Beltran as well.

You also have to consider that in Bernies last year as a CF'er, Beltran struggled on offense and defense in his adjustment year. Maybe he would have transitioned better to the Yankees, but that is conjecture.

Finally, I don't think Abreu ever played CF for the Yankees, so I think your memory of Torre pulling him for Bernie is mistaken.

2008-09-08 19:24:34
22.   Cliff Corcoran
Figgins career vs. Yanks: .326/.381/.409, 13 SB in 19 tries.
2008-09-08 19:27:28
23.   williamnyy23
A sac fly? Sign that man up!!
2008-09-08 19:29:27
24.   Just fair
Well, they made scoring 1 run look mighty easy. How many times again have the Yanks scored 3 or less? sigh
2008-09-08 19:35:07
25.   tommyl
24 I think roughly 1000000 times or something. I might need scientific notation to describe it.
2008-09-08 19:35:21
26.   randym77
21 Melky is fine on defense. And Bernie was fine on offense. But it's not as good as one complete player.

And if we'd gotten Beltran, it would have been a year earlier than we got Damon. That was a year when we were really struggling with the outfield. Remember Matt Lawton, Tony Womack, Bubba Crosby, Ruben Sierra. That season was so close, too. Beltran would have made a world of difference, IMO.

And I am not misremembering the Abreu in CF thing. You think I could make up something like that?

2008-09-08 19:36:40
27.   Cliff Corcoran
14 You can't isolate Beltran's defense and say "Melky was better." Runs on both sides of the ball count. Even in his adjustment year, Beltran was better than Bernie in both sides of the ball. In 2006 he was a near MVP with a 150 OPS+ to Damon's 115. You can't really compare Melky to him due to Melky's struggles at the plate. This year CF has been a black hole offensively and the offense had indeed been the problem for the team. Yes, the Yankees have lost in the postseason because of pitching, but they still would have been a better team each of the last four years (including this one) with Beltran, and he might have made the difference this year. Going forward the lack of Beltran will be magnified due to Melky's lack of development.

Above all, my point was not that Beltran would have necessarily put the Yankees in the World Series, but that not signing him was the biggest mistake they've made. I don't recall a comparable free agent pitcher slipping past them.

2008-09-08 19:38:38
28.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
26 Matt Lawton..Tony Womack...Bubba....sigh.....
2008-09-08 19:38:43
29.   Cliff Corcoran
2008-09-08 19:40:45
30.   Cliff Corcoran
Wood should get an error on that.
2008-09-08 19:43:38
31.   Cliff Corcoran
Props to YES for digging up some footage of Mattingly's first game.
2008-09-08 19:44:06
32.   williamnyy23
26 The only problem with your premise is that if the Yankees had gotten Beltran, they wouldn't have gotten Johnson. The Big Unit was very good that year, and won 5 games against Boston. If any player made a difference in 2005, it was the Big Unit. I don't see how you could make the case that the 2005 Yankees would have been better with Beltran than RJ, especially when you consider the offense had an OPS+ of 115 and an ERA+ of 93.

You are right about Torre putting Bernie in CF for Abreu, but it wasn't really a LIDR. Abreu started the game in RF, moved to CF after Damon came out, and then back to RF later in the game. Those were the only innings Abreu played CF, so I don't think it's fair to say that the lack of Beltran resulted in Bernie being used extensively as a CF'er.

2008-09-08 19:49:30
33.   randym77
28 Yeah, 2005 was brutal. Tony Womack was the worst player in baseball that year. Matt Lawton was juicing and still batting .100. And still, we came so close.

29 Thanks!

2008-09-08 19:52:48
34.   williamnyy23
27 I am not isolating anyone's performance. My point about this season is that instead of Melky in CF and Damon in LF, the Yankees could have played this season with Melky in LF and Beltran in CF. Melky is the common denominator, so you have to compare Beltran and Damon on offensive. This season, they have been pretty close. Meanwhile, the Yankees would have actually had weaker defense with Beltran in CF instead of Melky.

I just don't think missing out on Beltran has set them back much. In fact, I think not getting Johnson would have seriously set the team back in 2005. Now, going forward, it would be better to have Beltran, but it's already 4 years into the deal.

2008-09-08 19:53:07
35.   OldYanksFan
The Beltran v. RJ argument is a tough one. We will never know. But man, it would have been consistant and great to run the same CF'er out there, a guy who is well above average for the position with a bat, a glove and on the bases. I think Beltran was overhyped, but he is still a very valuable player at a key position.
2008-09-08 19:54:45
36.   williamnyy23
33 I don't think the offense in 2005 was brutal at all...the team had an OPS+ of 115. All of the guys you mentioned were bit players. It was the pitching that proved to be an anchor.
2008-09-08 19:59:54
37.   Cliff Corcoran
That's why the Angels are willing to tolerate Wood's play at shortstop.
2008-09-08 20:00:26
38.   OldYanksFan
Who the hell is Brandon Wood?
2008-09-08 20:01:23
39.   Raf
36 2005 was such a weird year. Pitching staff imploded with Wright, Pavano & Brown spending significant time on the shelf.
2008-09-08 20:02:19
40.   Raf
Lot of belt high pitches Pavano's throwing
2008-09-08 20:03:58
41.   Cliff Corcoran
34 I argued then, and still say, that the two players should not have been mutually exclusive. That said, Javy Vazquez would have held Johnson's spot in the rotation. I think the Yankees would still have made the playoffs with Beltran and Vazquez (with Bernie coming off the bench) vs. Bernie and Randy (and Womack coming off the bench).
2008-09-08 20:04:39
42.   williamnyy23
Right now the Yankees have the 13th best record in the majors, but are a healthy 6.5 games ahead of the Indians and Rangers, the two teams currently tied for 13th. The Yankees final schedule is really brutal (13 games against playoff teams), but I can't see them losing enough games to get that protected pick. In other words, this season will be as bad as you can get without it being good.
2008-09-08 20:06:16
43.   Cliff Corcoran
38 A top SS/3B prospect who hit .296/.375/.595 in triple-A this year at age 23. He's been working on cutting down on his strikeouts the last two seasons and it's working. Playing for the injured Maicer Izturis he's auditioning for a major league job next year.
2008-09-08 20:07:10
44.   Mattpat11
Big Mac hit the HR off ol Carl. That's an easy one.
2008-09-08 20:07:52
45.   Raf
Is it me, or does Chone look a bit like Willie Randolph?
2008-09-08 20:09:48
46.   OldYanksFan
43 Those are some very serious numbers for an INFer.
2008-09-08 20:09:55
47.   Mattpat11
45 He looks alot like Willie.
2008-09-08 20:11:21
48.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Cano's OBP down to .299....blechhhh!
2008-09-08 20:13:03
49.   williamnyy23
41 That's a fair point, but I disagree with it. Randy Johnson was 5-0 against Boston and Vazquez was only league average in the NL, so I don't think the Yankees would have been better off with the latter and Beltran, especially if you consider that Beltran may have struggled in his first with the Yankees as he did with the Mets.

You can really cut it both ways. The best argument is that the Yankees should have spent the money for both, but that implies that money isn't an object.

Quite frankly, I think a much bigger mistake was going for Sheffield instead of Vlad. Not only would the Yankees have gotten a better player for longer, but they would have denied one of their nemesis from getting him.

2008-09-08 20:14:08
50.   Mattpat11
Damnit. They got me too.

My Pavano hate blinded me.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-09-08 20:14:24
51.   randym77
Remember Game 5 in 2005? Our pal Joe West called Cano out for running outside the line. Man, that game was aggravating.
2008-09-08 20:14:50
52.   williamnyy23
49 While we're at it, not claiming Manny off waivers was a bigger mistake, as was not listening to the Boss and getting Ortiz.
2008-09-08 20:15:12
53.   williamnyy23
51 It was a bad call too.
2008-09-08 20:15:31
54.   Mattpat11
Is it fair to say Big Tex just pranced to first base?
2008-09-08 20:17:20
55.   Just fair
Damnit, Vlad. Always killin' rallies. Oops. Forget it.
2008-09-08 20:18:04
56.   Cliff Corcoran
52 Now you're talking. Though notice that we're still not talking about pitching.
2008-09-08 20:18:24
57.   Raf
52 Given that Ortiz was blocked and injury prone to that point, I can understand the Yanks passing on him. Don't really understand passing on Manny.
2008-09-08 20:18:59
58.   Cliff Corcoran
DVR says Hunter was safe. Still a great effort by Alex.
2008-09-08 20:19:42
59.   Raf
56 Well, I would've gone after Pedro and Clement. Or retained one of Lieber or Loaiza.
2008-09-08 20:20:06
60.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
54 we need some British soccer-style fan action (see Newcastle) to get the "Say NO to Tex" movement up and running...
2008-09-08 20:20:48
61.   Cliff Corcoran
57 The Manny thing was about the money, which was Theo Epstein's point in putting him on waivers in the first place. He was saying "I can't trade you because of your contract. Look, no one will even take your contract off waivers." And no one did.
2008-09-08 20:22:34
62.   Cliff Corcoran
59 Yeah, I was arguing for Clement over Pavano at the time, but all four pitchers you mention fell apart quickly.
2008-09-08 20:24:58
63.   williamnyy23
56 True, but I think that underscores why Beltran really wasn't a necessity. There were so many offensive moves the Yankees could have made, that they really only needed a glove to man CF.
2008-09-08 20:26:21
64.   williamnyy23
60 If you say No, what is your alternative?
2008-09-08 20:28:10
65.   Cliff Corcoran
63 Again, I disagree because runs on both sides of the ball matter.* If you can get a glove man who is also one of the league's most productive hitters (both Beltran and Teixeira qualify) you do your best to get him.

*That statement's derived from Pythagorean record, which tells us that it's run differential that counts. During the regular season, at least, it doesn't matter if you win all your games 10-8 or 3-1, as long as you're outscoring your opponents.

2008-09-08 20:29:14
66.   williamnyy23
John Flaherty is such a rare voice of common sense. I really wish YES would dump Kay.
2008-09-08 20:29:35
67.   Raf
64 They mentioned Matsui @ 1b during the broadcast
2008-09-08 20:30:17
68.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
64 I'm not up on the minor-leaugue prospects, so no idea who is coming up the ladder. I just wish the team would move away from long-term, bloated contracts..Tex is younger than Giambi whe he signed, but long-term deals for 1Bmen don't have a good track record..
2008-09-08 20:33:26
69.   williamnyy23
65 The only problem with your point is Beltran does not rate as a great offensive or defensive player. There is no way to argue that Beltran is close to being one of the league's most productive hitters. Furthermore, scoring and preventing runs is a team wide concept. A David Ortiz as your DH and Melky in CF could do a better job preventing runs than Beltran in CF and a lesser hitter at DH. Assuming that you can't always have the best players at every position, there are tradeoffs that you have to make.
2008-09-08 20:34:21
70.   Cliff Corcoran
68 At first base? Nobody, except maybe Jesus Montero (he's unlikely to remain a catcher), but he's minimum three years away and might be a David Ortiz-type "first baseman" at that.
2008-09-08 20:37:43
71.   williamnyy23
68 The Yankees have no 1B prospects who are close. Montero will probably move over to 1B, but he is at least 2-3 years away.

Texeira is only 28. He has never had a bad season in his career. He is a good defender. There are so many positives about Texeira, that you can't be afraid to sign him to a long-term deal.

I also don't get the notion about not wanting to give 1B a long-term deal. If anything, the position is the least demanding, so those who play it should age better.

2008-09-08 20:40:40
72.   Schteeve
Get Tex and get Burrell. I'm adamant.
2008-09-08 20:40:49
73.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
71 Giambi? Mo Vaughn? Big Papi? Boog Powell? Steve Bye-Bye Balboni?
2008-09-08 20:41:24
74.   Schteeve
And resign Pavano to something middle of the road like a 4/$40 deal.
2008-09-08 20:42:07
75.   williamnyy23
72 Pat the Bat? No thanks. I'd much rather have Manny.
2008-09-08 20:42:57
76.   Schteeve
75 As shaky as Pat is on D, I think he'd be better than Manny.
2008-09-08 20:43:05
77.   OldYanksFan
Wow... that was over Vlad's head by the time he took 3 steps.
2008-09-08 20:43:10
78.   williamnyy23
74 Don't forget an option year!
2008-09-08 20:44:03
79.   williamnyy23
76 The difference between there bats is very significant. Manny's bat heals all wounds.
2008-09-08 20:44:37
80.   Cliff Corcoran
review that!
2008-09-08 20:44:44
81.   Schteeve
Has anyone seen an analysis of hit clustering? It seems like the Yanks have clustered their hits far less frequently than one might expect.

Is that captured by looking at hitting with runners on base? I guess it is. Yeah. And they are pretty woeful in that department if memory serves.

Am I talking out loud?

2008-09-08 20:45:05
82.   OldYanksFan
If the Yanks move Mats to 1B (which is only a 1 yr move), that means they're getting ready to DH Posada.
2008-09-08 20:45:23
83.   Cliff Corcoran
80 never mind.
2008-09-08 20:45:41
84.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
79 wouldn't 3 years for Manny just be a repeat of the Sheff deal? awesome hitters with no other value, possible clubhouse cancer, injury risk as they age...
2008-09-08 20:46:46
85.   Schteeve
I was joking about resigning Pavano, but I'm kinda digging him right now, which might say a lot about the state of the Yankees rotation.
2008-09-08 20:46:49
86.   Cliff Corcoran
82 Nah, Posada would probably be a better 1B than Matsui. Rather, they Yanks are talking about using Matsui in the OF (it's Matsui that's talking 1B), so that suggests they're opening up 1B for Posada.
2008-09-08 20:47:35
87.   Cliff Corcoran
84 If Sheff hand't hurt his wrist the Sheff deal would have been a great one. I loved having him, even if Vlad was the smarter choice.
2008-09-08 20:47:42
88.   Schteeve
Ha ha! Remember what I said about Pavano? Jeeez.
2008-09-08 20:48:43
89.   Cliff Corcoran
69 Beltran's MLB VORP rankings:

2005: 125
2006: 9
2007: 26
2008: 27

Let's play Olympics and throw out the high and low scores and say he's top 30 to top 25 in the game, which means he's good enough to be the best hitter on a team.

Here are the Yankees who outrank Beltran in VORP this year: Alex Rodriguez. That's it.

The whole idea of the "production up the middle" thing is that it's much easier to get production from positions such as DH, so if you can find a CF/SS/2B/C who can produce at that level you're waaay ahead of the game. In other words, an inexpensive DH will be more productive than your all-glove CF.

2008-09-08 20:49:26
90.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
87 oh, i agree. i loved watching Sheff hit..I just think Manny will not sustain that production, espcially at that price...and really would just ilke to watch some young, exciting players again!
2008-09-08 20:49:38
91.   williamnyy23
84 First, I think you can get him for two years. That aside, the Sheffield deal didn't work because he got injured in year three. It worked well for the first two seasons. I also don't recall Sheffield hurting the team in the clubhouse. Because there is no Vlad out there, Manny makes perfect sense.
2008-09-08 20:51:46
92.   Schteeve
Here's my prediction: if Cashman is still the GM, they don't go anywhere near Manny. He's the archetype that I think Cash has built his blueprint on staying away from.

Not saying it's right, but that's my prediction.

2008-09-08 20:56:57
93.   Chyll Will
84 From most accounts, Manny's a good guy; at worst a goofy manchild. Would I go into business with him? Not in a heartbeat. Would I give him a lot of money to protect my biggest (contract) star for 2-3 years (especially when he's got a chip on his shoulder against your biggest rivals)? Hmm...
2008-09-08 20:57:24
94.   Cliff Corcoran
Vlad crushilated that one.

The Yanks need to score some runs if K-Rod's gonna get his 56th save.

2008-09-08 21:01:29
95.   Chyll Will
92 Your probably right. Which calls into question what Cash considers the most when looking for production. Outside of Alex falling from the sky, it seems like he's more interested in patching holes. That would be okay if there were more bonafide prospects coming shortly...
2008-09-08 21:03:08
96.   steveb1234
Isn't the problem with Teixeira that, for the salary he's likely to get, he's not a crazy-talented "special" player like an A-Rod or Pujols or Guerrero back in the day? While he's a good-to-great player, he's basically a slightly better Kevin Youkilis. Would people say Youk is worth $20 mil/year for the next six years? I think not.

Yeah, Tex has better career numbers. Still, Tex has never had that "holy shit" season that would command that kind of salary. (And holy crap, what's Pujols worth if Tex pulls down that kind of money?)

Also, his name is WAY too hard to spell. Who wants to have to type that out all the time?

2008-09-08 21:04:08
97.   Schteeve
95 Agreed. Sometimes I worry that Cash has bet the farm....on Given that there are not a ton of near MLB ready bats on the farm, I think he can not afford to stand on ceremony, he's gonna need to pick up some FA firepower if this team wants to contend next year.
2008-09-08 21:06:52
98.   williamnyy23
89 VORP is dicey. Even if you accept the baseline replacement level, it still is relative to position. So, while it is useful to compare two players at one position, it really isn't a good way to evaluate players in the context of a team.

Even so, it is worth noting that Damon's VORP is not far from Beltran's. So, again, it comes down to context. When you have a team that already has a good offensive SS, catcher, 2B, etc., you don't have to also have a one in CF, especially when your need is pitching. In a vacuum, would it better to have Beltran? Sure. But taken in the context of the past 4 years, I don't think he would have made much of a difference once you starting moving the other pieces around.

2008-09-08 21:08:09
99.   Mattpat11
Torii Hunter is a fucking pussbag.
2008-09-08 21:08:28
100.   williamnyy23
Wow...that was very weak by Hunter.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-09-08 21:09:21
101.   Mattpat11
Pavano hurt yet?
2008-09-08 21:09:21
102.   Schteeve
Is Giese's BA against really .202? Is he someone we can expect to see in the mix next season?
2008-09-08 21:09:34
103.   Cliff Corcoran
My wife wanted to see Shelley Duncan get involved in that and was disappointed to learn he's not on the team.
2008-09-08 21:09:54
104.   Mattpat11
I'd like to see the Singleton/Hunter brawl.
2008-09-08 21:10:18
105.   Raf
Looks like Hunter almost tripped over the bat, held to IRod for balance, Pudge pushed off him inadvertently, Hunter took exception.
2008-09-08 21:10:20
106.   Schteeve
101 His feelings tore their ACL.
2008-09-08 21:11:11
107.   Cliff Corcoran
102 Sure. He's been very good in general, showed that he could be a swing man/long man this year. No reason not to keep him around.
2008-09-08 21:11:33
108.   Mattpat11
I was just about to panic about Molina potentially getting struck by lightning or hit with a meteor, but I remembered we had Chad.
2008-09-08 21:12:29
109.   williamnyy23
96 Texeira is a much better player than Youkilis. While not "holy $%^&", three seasons with an OPS+ of 144 or better (including the last two) is pretty darn good.
2008-09-08 21:13:07
110.   Cliff Corcoran
Not for nothing, but Michael Kay is such a winer. Yeah, pushing a guy in the back is a cheap move, but "that was a violent, violent push"? Please. Get over it.
2008-09-08 21:13:39
111.   Cliff Corcoran
110 er "whiner"
2008-09-08 21:14:03
112.   Mattpat11
107 I liked having a long man that could go like four innings and give up one run. For too long I've watched the likes of Jeff Karstens turn a third inning, 5 run game into a fourth inning, eight run game.

Giese was able to go long and keep the game close.

2008-09-08 21:14:08
113.   williamnyy23
I'd like to see someone on the Yankees drill Hunter in the back next time up.
2008-09-08 21:15:08
114.   williamnyy23
What the hell happened to Eiland?
2008-09-08 21:15:53
115.   Cliff Corcoran
105 I'd say Pudge was a bit miffed at Hunter and put a little extra into that elbow, but Hunter should have expressed his displeasure verbally rather than by shoving him in the back.
2008-09-08 21:16:34
116.   Mattpat11
Dave Eiland collapsed?
2008-09-08 21:16:47
117.   Cliff Corcoran
114 Yack, no idea, but here's hoping he's okay.
2008-09-08 21:17:08
118.   Raf
113 It'll have to wait until tomorrow's game
2008-09-08 21:17:33
119.   Cliff Corcoran
116 Looks like it. But they got him back on his feet and he walked into the clubhouse mostly on his own with some players holding him up.
2008-09-08 21:18:03
120.   williamnyy23
Maybe the Yankees can trade for Farnsworth back?
2008-09-08 21:18:05
121.   Cliff Corcoran
Reading Girardi's lips on the mound he just said "I don't know what happened."
2008-09-08 21:18:32
122.   Mattpat11
If the Yankees must lose again, at least Pavano takes the loss and his ERA balloons over 5.

Moral victories.

2008-09-08 21:18:41
123.   Chyll Will
96 The main problem is (from a GM standpoint) that Boras is his agent, and will be going for blood. In a reasonable market, Tex would not get Poo-holes money; maybe a little more than Abreu (current contract) at best. But the Yanks will be over a barrel when you consider their needs and the lack of viable alternatives. Either they pony up or they platoon old and inferiors for the next three years.

97 I still want to believe that Cash is trying to rebuild on the sly while appeasing the Yanks' business partners, but the moves he's made don't give me a lot of confidence. I don't know if he's handcuffed by fiduciary obligations, or if he's just not as savvy a judge of talent as he's made out to be...

2008-09-08 21:18:52
124.   OldYanksFan
hmmmmmmm... how many fights/suspensions can we get and still put 9 men on the field? Might make these games worth watching.

Molina doesn't like getting anywhere near the plate when a guy is coming in.

2008-09-08 21:19:11
125.   Cliff Corcoran
Talking to Alex, Girardi said "just . . ." and flipped his hand over to symbolize Eiland passing out.
2008-09-08 21:19:28
126.   williamnyy23
122 And we don't have to see Krod perform an excorcism on the mound tonight.
2008-09-08 21:20:16
127.   OldYanksFan
William, considering both O, D, and baserunning, and looking at 2005-2008, which CFers have been better then Beltran?
2008-09-08 21:22:51
128.   williamnyy23
123 I really don't get the rebuilding theme. It's one thing to make the farm a priority, but rebuilding takes several years. You can't simply turn your ball club over to 24-year olds and expect to compete. Besides, how does signing a Manny next year hinder the use of youngsters? If anything adding a bat like his might make it easier for you to let an Austin Jackson start the year in CF.
2008-09-08 21:26:24
129.   Cliff Corcoran
128 Austin Jackson needs to spend most if not all of next year in triple-A.

Meanwhile, YES showed a replay with Eiland in the middle of the scrum. He doesn't look too good in the clip, but he doesn't get hit or anything.

2008-09-08 21:27:22
130.   OldYanksFan
Well... that fight really has fired up our offense! Another game scoring under 3 runs? The team needs group therapy.
2008-09-08 21:33:26
131.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
123 any chance of strong-arming the Cardinals into trading Pujols for Melky, IPK and Molina? would solve the 1B problem...

but seriously, 109 is Tex THAT much better than Youkilis to jusify 200mil? having two contracts like that really scares me...

2008-09-08 21:34:43
132.   Chyll Will
128 That makes sense to me. Honestly, I don't know what the Yankee's cap is, but I don't see why they can't pursue CC and Tex if they let go an Abreu, Giambi, et al. Considering the corner they've backed themselves into (no ready position prospects and mostly aged and past-prime starters, if they want to at least keep things interesting they have get those guys and work in the youngsters regardless of contract status.

Is the worry that if you get Manny, for example, then start easing him out with Austin, then he's gonna become disruptive? Aren't there other ways to make a veteran feel important and encourage them to reach out to rookies? Speculation, but I don't think it would be an issue with Manny anymore than it would have been with Giambi if there was anyone there to replace him (or better example, Abreu).

2008-09-08 21:36:21
133.   williamnyy23
127 Probably only Sizemore has been better, but Johnny Damon actually trails Beltran in RC 418 to 391. When you consider that Damon ranked better defensively than Beltran in 2005 and 2006, perhaps the Yankees would have been better off simply leaving Damon there?

Over the past two seasons, you could argue that Sizemore, Granderson, Ichiro, Rowand and Upton have been better.

The issue isn't whether Beltran is one of the better CF'ers, but whether he is a good enough player to have made a difference for the Yankees, all things considered.

2008-09-08 21:38:15
134.   williamnyy23
129 He'll be 22 before Spring Training. I don't think he has to spend a full season in the minors. If the Yankees think he is ready, it would be a lot easier to make that decision if you had other pieces in place.
2008-09-08 21:39:39
135.   Mattpat11
I think the bloom may be coming off the rose with Edwar.
2008-09-08 21:41:40
136.   williamnyy23
131 I don't think Texeira is going to get $200mn, mostly because I don't think any team but the Yankees would be able to go that high.
2008-09-08 21:42:23
137.   williamnyy23
The Giants are winning 6-0 in the 9th and Tim Lincecum is nearing 130 pitches. Why?
2008-09-08 21:43:16
138.   Chyll Will
130 This group needs a timeout...

131 Unlike the manner in which Alex was acquired, Cardinal fans would likely burn the stadium and most of the waterfront down (again?) if Pujols was traded, especially to us.

Now if Pujols' production were to slip a little after off-season surgery, Cash might say hmm... >;)

2008-09-08 21:45:11
139.   nick
so Ramirez, Veras, Robertson, Marte--all just fungible relievers? wtf is it with our pen? remember when people were writing blog entries about our deep dominant bullpen?
2008-09-08 21:45:31
140.   Chyll Will
137 Because when your team's a perennial loser, that's just what you do?
2008-09-08 21:45:39
141.   Mattpat11
138 Pujols is a career mediocrity coming off one good year?
2008-09-08 21:49:10
142.   Mattpat11
139 In the beginning of the year, I was upset with the bullpen because there were so many iffy pitchers in it. I was NEVER a fan of Jose Veras, for example.

When they all exceeded my expectations, I let myself think we might actually have a decent core.

Then they all collapsed.

2008-09-08 21:51:27
143.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
ugh...just heard David Cone say (on podcast) that the Yanks need to seriously conider leaving Joba in the pen next year...WTF?!?! hasn't that absurd debate been settled? Or is there something they aren't telling us about his "tendenitis"..??
2008-09-08 21:54:56
144.   Chyll Will
139 fungible >;) Maybe they have athlete's foot? Athlete's feet?
2008-09-08 21:56:30
145.   Cliff Corcoran
137 For the good of my fantasy team?
2008-09-08 21:56:36
146.   williamnyy23
139 It seems like the bullpen has been in every game early. I don't think you can let a few bad weeks distract you from how well they pitched for a good portion of the season. In other words, when LaTroy Hawkins becomes available next season, don't sign him!
2008-09-08 21:57:09
147.   williamnyy23
145 I have him too...I'd like him to make his last four starts!!
2008-09-08 21:57:42
148.   Cliff Corcoran
134 I don't think they think he's ready. I certainly don't think he's ready. I know Trenton's a tough park to hit in, but he didn't really light up double-A.
2008-09-08 21:58:21
149.   Chyll Will
141 You lost me somewhere...
2008-09-08 21:58:24
150.   Cliff Corcoran
147 Good point. I'm fighting for a money spot. Still, I get lots of points for complete games and shutouts.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-09-08 21:58:26
151.   OldYanksFan
Umps want this game over. Guy was safe at first.
2008-09-08 21:58:58
152.   williamnyy23
148 I am not suggesting he is ready, but if the Yankees did think he was, having a beefed up offense would make it easier to run him out there.
2008-09-08 22:00:31
153.   OldYanksFan
The Yankees are playing like a SNL parody of themselves. This is embarrassing.
2008-09-08 22:00:31
154.   williamnyy23
Good news...the Phillies won and the Brewers lost. Normally, I'd be rooting for a team like the Brew Crew, but I can't imagine what they would do to C.C.'s arm if they made the playoffs.
2008-09-08 22:01:30
155.   williamnyy23
153 I am actually going to stay up to watch Joe Girardi explain how the team still has a chance.
2008-09-08 22:02:48
156.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
williamnyy23, you mentioned earlier (yesterday?) that you would choose Boston over LA if they played in the WS...never got the chance to ask...Why?? Torre, Donnie, Bowa, Manny...would be great to see them kick the Sox
2008-09-08 22:03:11
157.   Mattpat11
149 Sorry. I hear Cashman could be interested in someone and I just assume.
2008-09-08 22:03:12
158.   Cliff Corcoran
Save for the true elites, relievers are fungible as a rule. The Yankees approach this year has been perfect. With Farnsworth and Hawkins gone and Joba in the rotation they had a pen full of guys who could be sent down at any moment and a minor league system full of talented arms ready to come up and take their place. The bullpen remains in the plus column for this year, and I think Girardi and Eiland have had a lot to do with that.
2008-09-08 22:05:58
159.   williamnyy23
156 I said that in jest, but ...

I've grown used to hearing about the glory of RSN, but I don't think I could stand an offseason hearing about how Torre won his WS without the Yankees, and the Yankees finished 4th without him. Also, I am so dissappointed with Girardi, that I'd rather avoid the reality that the Yankees actually hired a manager with all of Torre's faults and none of his strengths.

2008-09-08 22:06:06
160.   Cliff Corcoran
I hate way the adjective form of "representative" is used in sports coverage.
2008-09-08 22:08:09
161.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
160 that came out of nowhere...i still hate people who put "a" in front of names.. "if the Yankees go and sign a CC or a Burnett.." Buster Olney, that means you!
2008-09-08 22:08:28
162.   Cliff Corcoran
159 "I don't think I could stand an offseason hearing about how Torre won his WS without the Yankees"

I wouldn't worry about that.

Also, as said above, Girardi's bullpen management is superior to Torre's. Of course that was Torre's big weakness.

2008-09-08 22:10:01
163.   Cliff Corcoran
161 Agreed.
2008-09-08 22:10:02
164.   williamnyy23
The tragic number is down to 10...the season could be over for even Girardi as soon as this weekend.
2008-09-08 22:13:37
165.   Chyll Will
157 It's funny because it's not ironic >;)
2008-09-08 22:14:16
166.   Cliff Corcoran
164 The sooner the better so the charade can end and we can see Gardner and Melky get some playing time.
2008-09-08 22:15:21
167.   williamnyy23
166 Gardner? In that case, they better start winning some games!!
2008-09-08 22:16:49
168.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
167 hey, taking pitches is a good thing, didn7t you read Moneyball?? :)
2008-09-08 22:19:45
169.   Chyll Will
159 Hey, I thought you were a realist! >;)
2008-09-08 22:20:50
170.   cult of basebaal
it was nice to see joey joe joe jr make an effort to get his bench players a little playing time once this game became a blowout ... oh, wait, that's right, he didn't ... oh well, i'm sure he's got a good reason that he won't share with us.
2008-09-08 22:21:16
171.   Chyll Will
168 Jinx!
2008-09-08 22:21:18
172.   williamnyy23
159 Exactly...that's why I'd like to avoid dealing with that reality! If it never happens, I am in the clear.
2008-09-08 22:22:34
173.   williamnyy23
170 This team is still battling for a playoff spot. All they need to do is game 4 games a week over the next two weeks to make that Fenway series meaningful.
2008-09-08 22:24:17
174.   Chyll Will
170 Hopefully it won't relate to 140 , but his record is beginning to work against him >;)
2008-09-08 22:28:12
175.   Chyll Will
172 Banter will take up a collection for an industrial cleansuit for you if that happens >;)
2008-09-08 22:29:00
176.   Schteeve
166 Dude, didn't we see Melky get playing time for like 80% of the season? He's no damn good.
2008-09-08 22:29:46
177.   williamnyy23
175 Can I get it in royal blue?
2008-09-08 22:30:19
178.   williamnyy23
Why is this press conference focusing on the inane event in the 6th inning!
2008-09-08 22:32:45
179.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
178 you watch the press conferences??? damn...Yes, Sir! May I have another!!
2008-09-08 22:34:05
180.   Chyll Will
177 Sure, we were gonna steal one from the nearest IBM plant anyway...
2008-09-08 22:34:12
181.   williamnyy23
179 I keep hoping I'll come away with a reason to feel better about Girardi, but he never disappoints.
2008-09-08 22:35:47
182.   williamnyy23
Pavano's on now, so time for bed.
2008-09-08 22:36:28
183.   Cliff Corcoran
Apparently the media was phoning it in tonight as well.
2008-09-08 22:42:00
184.   cult of basebaal
183 the media's been phoning it in far longer than just this season ...
2008-09-08 22:42:47
185.   cult of basebaal
181 wouldn't that be the definition of insanity, then?
2008-09-08 22:45:12
186.   OldYanksFan
Just ran across this, and as a fan wanted to post it.
Who is the best pure hitter in the game? Albert Pujols? He is having perhaps his best year so far, with an amazing OPS+ on 191.

Mickey Mantle had FIVE years with an OPS+ of 195 or better, including back to back years with OPS+'s of 210 and 233. 233!

And Barry Bonds?
SIX years with an OPS+ OVER 200!, including 268 and 263.

Babe's 2 best years were 256 and 239.

Awesome numbers.

2008-09-08 22:48:21
187.   thelarmis
hey cult - it was barely 13 months ago you and i watched joba's debut against the blow jays and were super excited. edwar "phantom warrior" came soon thereafter.

now the entire jocks n jills chain was shut down due to a sexual harassment case against the owner and our yanks have been shut down due to too many issues to list.

let's hope we're celebrating all kinds of good stuff a year from now! : )

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